Do you believe in God?

[Musakhel]

Yes, but the concept applies to rape as well.

So your argument is, correct me if I am wrong? That Because Allah Creates evil, therfore he is to blame for us commiting Evil?

This is a weak argument, because no where does Allah force us to act upon our evil intentions.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

If God already knows what I am going to choose, everything is predestined. So where is the test in this?

So God sets the Test and he already knows the outcome. Why even test then? Sounds silly on God’s part.

The test is to make the right choice.

Allah knowing if you will choose bad or good doesn't bias the result, because he is not going to influence you.

The final decision rests in your hands.

 

[RogerBao]

The test is to make the right choice.

Allah knowing if you will choose bad or good doesn't bias the result, because he is not going to influence you.

The final decision rests in your hands.

I don't think so. That God knows the future but free will/action is solely yours is a common theme. Its not the case for Islam. There are enough Quranic verses & sunnah to indicate otherwise. Bro Axis is spot on I feel.

 

[axis]

So your argument is, correct me if I am wrong? That Because Allah Creates evil, therfore he is to blame for us commiting Evil?

This is a weak argument, because no where does Allah force us to act upon our evil intentions.

I am just asking for consistency. If rapist alone is to be blamed for rape, the saviour alone should be appreciated for saving the woman.

 

[axis]

I feel that free will is only given to humans so that no soul can claim injustice on the day of judgment. The test is to give the soul no chance of any claim that she didn't deserve hell ..

If you commit wrong and immoral acts on the planet, i.e. shirk, theft, murder, rape, riba, eating pork, adultery, not giving zakaat etc. you will be punished in the afterlife.

Just by being a Muslim you will not be saved..

So, it is not the case that all non-Muslims will alone go to hell, and all Muslims will enter Jannah.. it is very much possible that some Muslims also will go to hell.

 

[Musakhel]

I am just asking for consistency. If rapist alone is to be blamed for rape, the saviour alone should be appreciated for saving the woman.

This is what the scholars say that out of adab(etiquitte) we attribute all good to Allah and evil to ourselves.

 

[RogerBao]

I feel that free will is only given to humans so that no soul can claim injustice on the day of judgment. The test is to give the soul no chance of any claim that she didn't deserve hell ..

If you commit wrong and immoral acts on the planet, i.e. shirk, theft, murder, rape, riba, eating pork, adultery, not giving zakaat etc. you will be punished in the afterlife.

Just by being a Muslim you will not be saved..

So, it is not the case that all non-Muslims will alone go to hell, and all Muslims will enter Jannah.. it is very much possible that some Muslims also will go to hell.

Instead of giving our personal opinions and never ending mental gymnastics, lets see what the scriptures say and decide whether in Islam salvation is based on free will or already pre-ordained. Decide for yourselves.


Say: ‘Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector’: and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.” (Qur'an 9:51)

Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him (Qur'an 4:88)

.......And by Allah, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which Allah has ordered the angel to write) precedes, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing precedes and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it." Sahih al-Bukhari 6594 Book of Divine Will (Al-Qadar)

It was narrated that 'Aishah the Mother of the Believers said:
"The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was called to the funeral of a child from among the Ansar. I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, glad tidings for him! He is one of the little birds of Paradise, who never did evil or reached the age of doing evil (i.e, the age of accountability).' He said: 'It may not be so, O 'Aishah! For Allah created people for Paradise, He created them for it when they were still in their father's loins, And He has created people for Hell, He created them for it when they were still in their fathers' loins.'" Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 82 Sunan Ibn Majah

 

[axis]

This is what the scholars say that out of adab(etiquitte) we attribute all good to Allah and evil to ourselves.

That's why I never rely on scholars.

 

[RogerBao]

Does God loves you? (5mins)

 

[axis]

Does God loves you? (5mins)

pretentious spirituality.. never concrete.. just use some heavy words to confuse.

 

[Musakhel]

Instead of giving our personal opinions and never ending mental gymnastics, lets see what the scriptures say and decide whether in Islam salvation is based on free will or already pre-ordained. Decide for yourselves.


Say: ‘Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector’: and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.” (Qur'an 9:51)

Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him (Qur'an 4:88)

.......And by Allah, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which Allah has ordered the angel to write) precedes, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing precedes and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it." Sahih al-Bukhari 6594 Book of Divine Will (Al-Qadar)

It was narrated that 'Aishah the Mother of the Believers said:
"The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was called to the funeral of a child from among the Ansar. I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, glad tidings for him! He is one of the little birds of Paradise, who never did evil or reached the age of doing evil (i.e, the age of accountability).' He said: 'It may not be so, O 'Aishah! For Allah created people for Paradise, He created them for it when they were still in their father's loins, And He has created people for Hell, He created them for it when they were still in their fathers' loins.'" Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 82 Sunan Ibn Majah

Yes Allah created people for paradise and people for hell, but we still have choice that is our free will.

We know this because whenever we do something we don't feel forced to do so.

 

[RogerBao]

pretentious spirituality.. never concrete.. just use some heavy words to confuse.

Whatever that doesn't fit in your dogma is pretentious & confusing? Of course. As for being concrete, does it make it more acceptable if he was, even if he makes stupid claims? In the video, he just made a simple point in a humorous way which makes sense to me, just like your mullah makes sense to you when he taught you that Satan farts everytime it hears the Azaan.

 

[RogerBao]

Yes Allah created people for paradise and people for hell, but we still have choice that is our free will.

We know this because whenever we do something we don't feel forced to do so.

Yeah right, that's why even a sinless infant may end up in Hell.

 

[Musakhel]

Yeah right, that's why even a sinless infant may end up in Hell.

That they will be tested in the Hereafter, and whoever obeys Allaah will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys Him will enter Hell. This is the view of the majority of Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, as transmitted by Abu’l-Hasan al-Ash’ari, and it is the opinion of al-Bayhaqi and many other researchers. It is also the opinion favoured by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah. He said that this is what is implied by the texts of Imaam Ahmad, and is the view regarded as most correct by al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer. He said: this view reconciles all the reports, and all the ahaadeeth quoted above support one another. Al-Tafseer, 3/31.

Anas said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Four (kinds of people) will be brought forth on the Day of Resurrection: the infant, the insane, the one who died during the Fatrah (the period between two prophets) and the very old man. All of them will speak in their own defence, then the Lord, may He be blessed and exalted, will say to a neck of Hell, ‘Come forth!’ and He will say to them, ‘I used to send Messengers to My slaves from amongst themselves. Now I am the Messenger of Myself to you. Enter this (i.e., the Fire).’ Those who are decreed to be among the doomed will say, ‘O Lord, how could we enter it when we are trying to escape it?’ And those who are decreed to be among the blessed will rush to enter it. And Allaah will say: ‘You would have been more disobedient towards My Messengers.’ So those will enter Paradise and those will enter Hell.” Narrated by Abu Ya’laa, 4224. There are corroborating reports which were mentioned by Ibn Katheer in al-Tafseer, 3/29-31.

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this is the most reasonable of the opinions, which reconciles all the reports and brings all the ahaadeeth into harmony. On this basis, some of them will be in Paradise, as in the hadeeth of Samurah, and some of them will be in Hell, as in the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah. The reply of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) indicates this, as he said: “Allaah knows best what they would have done, because He created them.” It is known that Allaah does not punish anyone on the basis of what He knows, unless what He knows actually comes to pass.

 

[RogerBao]

That they will be tested in the Hereafter, and whoever obeys Allaah will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys Him will enter Hell.

Babies will be Tested in Hereafter? Is this some kind of sadomasochistic game?

Anas said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Four (kinds of people) will be brought forth on the Day of Resurrection: the infant, the insane, the one who died during the Fatrah (the period between two prophets) and the very old man. All of them will speak in their own defence, .

The insane & senile could have commited sin unknowingly, thus the supposed opportunity to defend themselves. What action a day/month old baby need to defend from?

then the Lord, may He be blessed and exalted, will say to a neck of Hell, ‘Come forth!’ and He will say to them, ‘I used to send Messengers to My slaves from amongst themselves. Now I am the Messenger of Myself to you. Enter this (i.e., the Fire).’ Those who are decreed to be among the doomed will say, ‘O Lord, how could we enter it when we are trying to escape it?’ And those who are decreed to be among the blessed will rush to enter it.

So even the Test on the baby is a fixed match!!

“Allaah knows best what they would have done, because He created them.” It is known that Allaah does not punish anyone on the basis of what He knows, unless what He knows actually comes to pass.

What sin would have come to pass for a baby? Suckling too hard?

 

[Musakhel]

Babies will be Tested in Hereafter? Is this some kind of sadomasochistic game?



The insane & senile could have commited sin unknowingly, thus the supposed opportunity to defend themselves. What action a day/month old baby need to defend from?



So even the Test on the baby is a fixed match!!



What sin would have come to pass for a baby? Suckling too hard?

IN Islam we know that the pen is lifted on three people, the child, the insane and the very old. What this means is that they are not accountable for their deeds.

The test is to see if they will obey Allah, In Allah presence, those who disobey will be in hell and those who obey will be in paradise.

They will no longer have their mental incapacities or ignorance that they had on earth, we know this from the hadith when they answer back To Allah command for them to enter the fire.

As for the issue of decree, Allah knows who will obey and who will disobey, but ultimately they are the ones who choose to obey or disobey and this is clear from the hadith.

 

[RogerBao]

As for the issue of decree, Allah knows who will obey and who will disobey, but ultimately they are the ones who choose to obey or disobey and this is clear from the hadith.

Decree means an authoritative order, it's not about knowing the future & you know that.

 

[Musakhel]

Decree means an authoritative order, it's not about knowing the future & you know that.

They still have choice, they will have the Choice to enter the fire or refuse.

Those decreed for hell, still have choice and this is evident because when we do evil, we do not feel forced to do so, we feel as if we have done it voluntarily

 

[RogerBao]

They still have choice, they will have the Choice to enter the fire or refuse.

Those decreed for hell, still have choice and this is evident because when we do evil, we do not feel forced to do so, we feel as if we have done it voluntarily

Ok. I get it. Sinless innocent children on earth may disobey God in the Hereafter and end up in Hell and it's entirely their fault though God had planned that exactly for them. Notwithstanding, they actually had real free will & squandered it. Makes perfect sense. Thank you.

 

[gazza619]

You can choose not to love the creator but not to believe in one is beyond me.

 

[troodon]

You can choose not to love the creator but not to believe in one is beyond me.

We don't know yet. But with each passing year. science is discovering and bringing proof to stuff which we used to attribute to God. Just shows all organized religions are full of **. Its all about mass control.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

We don't know yet. But with each passing year. science is discovering and bringing proof to stuff which we used to attribute to God. Just shows all organized religions are full of **. Its all about mass control.

Well it's critics would say mass control the flip side is social order. Its supporters could argue 'for the greater good'. Social order is a good system, better if it didn't involve the biggest conspiracy theory (a supreme creator) going with still no proof.

But progress leads us to individual liberty. Contrast the different ways LGBT people are tret.

In conservative, patriarchal societies it is easy, men and women, if you have dangly bits, you are a man and if not a women. In progressive society, if the individual has dangly bits but mentally is totally female, society gives that individual the choice to live as man or woman. In Islamic society that individuals will always be treated as a male (dangly bits), because it is _easier_ for society not the individual.

 

[gazza619]

We don't know yet. But with each passing year. science is discovering and bringing proof to stuff which we used to attribute to God. Just shows all organized religions are full of **. Its all about mass control.

I am not trying to preach here but did you know that a lot of scientific facts which are discovered now by science were mentioned in the Quran 1400 years ago.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

I am not trying to preach here but did you know that a lot of scientific facts which are discovered now by science were mentioned in the Quran 1400 years ago.

Science changes. I am linking you to video by Hamza Tzortzis, very capable and charismatic Greek revert, who heads some sort of Islamic mission, quite clearly stating that there are NO science miracles, that the Qur'an is a book of signs not science.

He outlines the reasons why in the first 5 minutes, don't worry you won't lose your faith. He didn't. You just move goalposts. Zakir Naik should be ashamed.

Why do Muslim proclaim Science when it can be made to look like it is agreeing with the Qur'an and other Science is dismissed.

Yours is a religion of faith and faith alone, you don't need science and science certainly doesn't back the Qur'an.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Science changes. I am linking you to video by Hamza Tzortzis, very capable and charismatic Greek revert, who heads some sort of Islamic mission, quite clearly stating that there are NO science miracles, that the Qur'an is a book of signs not science.

He outlines the reasons why in the first 5 minutes, don't worry you won't lose your faith. He didn't. You just move goalposts. Zakir Naik should be ashamed.

Why do Muslim proclaim Science when it can be made to look like it is agreeing with the Qur'an and other Science is dismissed.

Yours is a religion of faith and faith alone, you don't need science and science certainly doesn't back the Qur'an.

https://youtu.be/fyf4gecrY8c

Ahem, forgot to link video...

 

[troodon]

I am not trying to preach here but did you know that a lot of scientific facts which are discovered now by science were mentioned in the Quran 1400 years ago.

Like?

Does sun take permission from god to rise up on the morning?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Like?

Does sun take permission from god to rise up on the morning?

The Archangel Mikaeel controls the weather/ecosystems/climate etc.

 

[Madplayer]

We don't know yet. But with each passing year. science is discovering and bringing proof to stuff which we used to attribute to God. Just shows all organized religions are full of **. Its all about mass control.

You have a very narrow view of scientific discoveries. The stuff which is attributed to God will still be attributed to God (as a causal factor) even if you discover the underlying factors which describe the process.

 

[Mages]

I am not trying to preach here but did you know that a lot of scientific facts which are discovered now by science were mentioned in the Quran 1400 years ago.

Nothing wrong even if you preach but what science are you talking about? Like the discovery that meteors are actually missiles to attack the Jinns (67:5 & 72:8-9)?

Science changes. I am linking you to video by Hamza Tzortzis, very capable and charismatic Greek revert, who heads some sort of Islamic mission, quite clearly stating that there are NO science miracles, that the Qur'an is a book of signs not science.
He outlines the reasons why in the first 5 minutes, don't worry you won't lose your faith. He didn't. You just move goalposts. Zakir Naik should be ashamed.
Why do Muslim proclaim Science when it can be made to look like it is agreeing with the Qur'an and other Science is dismissed.
Yours is a religion of faith and faith alone, you don't need science and science certainly doesn't back the Qur'an.

People like Zakir Naik, Harun Yahya and whole a lot of Quranic science/miracle protagonists were heroes for the masses for the last 2 decades & now they are an embarrassment ? You can’t blame them as they were just making money pandering to what Muslims want to hear. That’s all. Recently I notice that many Muslim “scholars” & websites have now toned down the Quran-science thingy. They pick & choose verses that they can extrapolate to confirm any science or discovery & when it suits them they just brush off some verses as metaphorical. And this doesn’t stand in debates & they have realised it. People like Hamza are filling in the gap & now in trend, are also just making money selling books & saying what more educated Muslims like to hear. Hamza’s solution that Quran is about a book signs only & not a book of science is no solution at all. The Quran many times make specific claims that are factually & scientifically wrong. This has nothing to do sign or even metaphor. For instance, in verse 51 :49, Allah claims He created everything on earth in pairs, then in verse 16:8 Allah says He created mules. Mules simply do not come in pairs or nor herd. There are many other examples too. The bottom line is, no amount of mental gymnastics will enable you to wriggle your way out if God keeps shooting in his Foot.

 

[Darkrai]

at people who think everything in the universe is by chance. Everything works so perfectly because science?? what?? give me a break. Everything from the creation of the universe till now, you can't tell me this happened on its own. So you have understood many things such as how the human body functions and how the solar system works. So what? The only thing you've done is explained how incredible this universe is, how this could not have possible happened on its own. As science further advances it only strengthen the faith of the believers. The only thing that science has and will accomplish is just the revelations of the magnificent creations of God.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

at people who think everything in the universe is by chance. Everything works so perfectly because science?? what?? give me a break. Everything from the creation of the universe till now, you can't tell me this happened on its own. So you have understood many things such as how the human body functions and how the solar system works. So what? The only thing you've done is explained how incredible this universe is, how this could not have possible happened on its own. As science further advances it only strengthen the faith of the believers. The only thing that science has and will accomplish is just the revelations of the magnificent creations of God.

You are using the fallacy of incredulity, as in just because _you_ can't believe it doesn't make it a solid argument.

Science can explain everything from about 0.000000031 seconds from the big bang onwards, God is needed by some to explain 0.0000000031 sec of universe. That is not exactly figure, real figure is just as absurdly tiny.

If the universe can't be created by chance, what chance God, someone who knows everything and can do everything. Can He make a weight too big for him to carry?

 

[troodon]

The Archangel Mikaeel controls the weather/ecosystems/climate etc.

LOL

So may be Mikaeel is angry with Arabia and does not give them much rain at all, while the pagans living in East Asia get tons of rain. Even God and Angels Love Pagans.

 

[troodon]

You have a very narrow view of scientific discoveries. The stuff which is attributed to God will still be attributed to God (as a causal factor) even if you discover the underlying factors which describe the process.

No.

We still do not know a lot of things about Universe and how stuff works. We are discovering a lot of new things and understanding them. All of which we used to attribute to God.

Only now we know how clouds are formed and why some areas receive more rain than others. If you asked the same question to a 7th century camel herder or Sheep herder, he would say God gives Rain by opening buckets from Sky. How ridiculous that is.

Religious Books know the answer for everything without an ounce of proof. That is where the problem is. We pretend as though the nomads from thousands of years ago had more knowledge and wiser than the present day humans.

 

[Musakhel]

You are using the fallacy of incredulity, as in just because _you_ can't believe it doesn't make it a solid argument.

Science can explain everything from about 0.000000031 seconds from the big bang onwards, God is needed by some to explain 0.0000000031 sec of universe. That is not exactly figure, real figure is just as absurdly tiny.

If the universe can't be created by chance, what chance God, someone who knows everything and can do everything. Can He make a weight too big for him to carry?

That's arguing for an impossibility, Anything created can not be greater than God.

 

[troodon]

That's arguing for an impossibility, Anything created can not be greater than God.

Your assumption is that God created everything. Show me the proof!!

 

[Mages]

You are using the fallacy of incredulity, as in just because _you_ can't believe it doesn't make it a solid argument.

Science can explain everything from about 0.000000031 seconds from the big bang onwards, God is needed by some to explain 0.0000000031 sec of universe. That is not exactly figure, real figure is just as absurdly tiny.

If the universe can't be created by chance, what chance God, someone who knows everything and can do everything. Can He make a weight too big for him to carry?

It is my opinion that there is no way to debate conclusively on existence of a Creator but it is easy to refute or confirm if anyone shows you a book and claims it is from the same source of creation as of this universe.

That's arguing for an impossibility, Anything created can not be greater than God.

When we take an oath or swear , we do it upon something greater or held higher than ourselves, usually God, parents etc. In the Quran , God is swearing upon horses, figs, olives etc which are his own creation!!. Go figure.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I believe in a Supreme God and His angels and a Supreme Satan and his minions, who works with God's permission and does the dirty laundry, while God saves us from the Satan he controls.

 

[Madplayer]

No.

We still do not know a lot of things about Universe and how stuff works. We are discovering a lot of new things and understanding them. All of which we used to attribute to God.

Only now we know how clouds are formed and why some areas receive more rain than others. If you asked the same question to a 7th century camel herder or Sheep herder, he would say God gives Rain by opening buckets from Sky. How ridiculous that is.

Religious Books know the answer for everything without an ounce of proof. That is where the problem is. We pretend as though the nomads from thousands of years ago had more knowledge and wiser than the present day humans.

You didnt get my point, did you?
I said, no matter if you discovered the procedure of how a natural phenomenon occurs, religious people can still say that the causal factor is God who made all that process possible.

 

[Madplayer]

When we take an oath or swear , we do it upon something greater or held higher than ourselves, usually God, parents etc.

Not necessarily

In the Quran , God is swearing upon horses, figs, olives etc which are his own creation!!. Go figure.

Quote one of these verses.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

That's arguing for an impossibility, Anything created can not be greater than God.

By that token God is the impossibility.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

It is my opinion that there is no way to debate conclusively on existence of a Creator

Not just yours. Agnostic v Athiest. I did have something else pretty cool point to make but got distracted and forgotten now. Gotta move on.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

LOL

So may be Mikaeel is angry with Arabia and does not give them much rain at all, while the pagans living in East Asia get tons of rain. Even God and Angels Love Pagans.

Not quite because ultimately they are only carrying out God's will. Which makes the story of the Devil rebelling (who was Gods bestest supporter prior to Man, all the more interesting).

He did give them oil. But was that a blessing?

More interestingly, the concept of Hell, Norse Mythology has Hell, i think they call it Hades, as a very very very cold place, whereas desert mythologies, the Hell is very very very hot. It's what the local population expect to be the worse environment to them on earth.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Not just yours. Agnostic v Athiest. I did have something else pretty cool point to make but got distracted and forgotten now. Gotta move on.

Just remembered the pretty cool point. The analogy with AI, Artificial Intelligence.

We as humans create AI. We programme it and put the plug in and according to all the evidence _they_ can become more intelligent. More intelligent than their 'creator's and humans are finite, who gets left behind?

If God did create us we are far more intelligent than He.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

You didnt get my point, did you?
I said, no matter if you discovered the procedure of how a natural phenomenon occurs, religious people can still say that the causal factor is God who made all that process possible.

Lol, exactly. And that is a good thing?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

I believe in a Supreme God and His angels and a Supreme Satan and his minions, who works with God's permission and does the dirty laundry, while God saves us from the Satan he controls.

If I was to believe in a God, or elect one from the thousands available, or from time immemorial I would choose a) some form of sun god b) one who's book had one sentence, either the golden or platinum rule, then a full stop.

Failing that Thor, God of Thunder, as a kid, he was the coolest in the comics. Spiderman, Hulk yeah but they weren't Gods. I'd choose to believe in him even tho scientist know how lightning is created.

I'd wouldn't choose the one that kills 7 million babies in a day, month, look it up.

 

[Madplayer]

Lol, exactly. And that is a good thing?

Is it a bad thing?

 

[CricketCartoons]

If I was to believe in a God, or elect one from the thousands available, or from time immemorial I would choose a) some form of sun god b) one who's book had one sentence, either the golden or platinum rule, then a full stop.

Failing that Thor, God of Thunder, as a kid, he was the coolest in the comics. Spiderman, Hulk yeah but they weren't Gods. I'd choose to believe in him even tho scientist know how lightning is created.

I'd wouldn't choose the one that kills 7 million babies in a day, month, look it up.

You don't need to tell me which god you feel like worshipping. Hopefully you will have answers when you meet your Creator one day. I am at peace in this world because I know Bhagwan ji will hold me to His bosom when I meet to face him after my death.

 

[Mages]

Not necessarily

Why does the supposed All Mighty Allah the Creator of the Universe actually need to swear in the first place?

Quote one of these verses.

It's all over the Quran. I'll quote some;

(I swear) by those (horses) that run snorting, (100: 1)
By the Fig and the Olive, (95 :1)
Noon. I swear by the pen and what the angels write, S. (68:1)

Are you sure this is God speaking?

 

[Musakhel]

Why does the supposed All Mighty Allah the Creator of the Universe actually need to swear in the first place?



It's all over the Quran. I'll quote some;

(I swear) by those (horses) that run snorting, (100: 1)
By the Fig and the Olive, (95 :1)
Noon. I swear by the pen and what the angels write, S. (68:1)

Are you sure this is God speaking?

Why not? Allah is putting emphasis on certain things in order to highlights it's virtue or benefit, Allah knows best.

 

[Madplayer]

Why does the supposed All Mighty Allah the Creator of the Universe actually need to swear in the first place?



It's all over the Quran. I'll quote some;

(I swear) by those (horses) that run snorting, (100: 1)
By the Fig and the Olive, (95 :1)
Noon. I swear by the pen and what the angels write, S. (68:1)

Are you sure this is God speaking?

It is just to put emphasis on the statement that is being made. We humans have things which are greater than us. We can swear by these things to show how serious we are. But God is greatest and nothing is grrater than Him. So he need not follow the same rule which us humans are bound by due to our limitations. You arent saying something new here. Throughout the history of Islam the Islamic scholars have had no problem in dealing with this particular question.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

So he need not follow the same rule which us humans are bound by due to our limitations.

He seems human enough, all his 99 attributes/names are human qualities. He demands worship without question. He bribes with tales if wide-eyed maidens and young boys (Yes, young boys). He threatens with eternal fire. He can't be All-merciful and All-justice at the same time. He is a contradiction (contradictions explained away by other contradictions).

 

[Madplayer]

He seems human enough, all his 99 attributes/names are human qualities.

I think you have missed the entire essence of relationship between man and God. Answers some questions regarding why you and many others dont believe. You might have heard of the old saying that God created man in his own image. God possesses all those attributes (qualities) to an infinite degree and directs us to inculcate them in our human self based on our limited capabilities. There is no "expose" here that you have done. Its part of religious philosophy and is widely known.

He demands worship without question.

Only inflated egos would have a problem with worshipping their creator.

He bribes with tales if wide-eyed maidens

Bribing is not same as rewarding. What do expect to do in heaven? Take a harp and sing hymns?

and young boys (Yes, young boys).

A reference to this would make things clear.

He threatens with eternal fire.He can't be All-merciful and All-justice at the same time. He is a contradiction (contradictions explained away by other contradictions).

He can be all-merciful and all-just at the same time. You cant associate "can't" with God because He is not bound by limitations of human beings.

 

[MenInG]

All post questioning God are offensive to Muslims by default.

The fact that we are allowing such debate to happen is to our immense credit and should not be abused.

I will allow this debate but understand what the boundaries/sensitivities are of Muslims, in the same way we respect that of non-Muslims.

 

[Musakhel]

Everything Allah does is just, Injustice is impossible for Allah for the simple reason that Everything Allah does is with his full right to do so, since he is the creator and owner of everything.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Everything Allah does is just, Injustice is impossible for Allah for the simple reason that Everything Allah does is with his full right to do so, since he is the creator and owner of everything.

How can be all merciful as well? It's like a four sided triangle. Beyond logic.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

All post questioning God are offensive to Muslims by default.

The fact that we are allowing such debate to happen is to our immense credit and should not be abused.

I will allow this debate but understand what the boundaries/sensitivities are of Muslims, in the same way we respect that of non-Muslims.

Without questioning there is no debate. I am mindful of Muslim sensitivities as all my family and nearest and dearest are all Muslims including my parents and my daughter.

 

[MenInG]

Without questioning there is no debate. I am mindful of Muslim sensitivities as all my family and nearest and dearest are all Muslims including my parents and my daughter.

Continue with your debate without insulting Islam or any Islamic figures. Thanks

 

[Musakhel]

How can be all merciful as well? It's like a four sided triangle. Beyond logic.

Allah is Most merciful, that is the correct translation, All merciful is the wrong translation and the first translation is in agreement of what we know from revelation, for example disbelievers will be subject to Allah justice and will be punished.

As for those who compare the mercy of Mankind to the one who Created mercy in the first place shows their lack of understanding of Allah when he says there is nothing like Allah, and whatever we think of Allah, Allah is other than that.

 

[Darkrai]

Those who say God doesn't exist, what if you're wrong?

 

[Madplayer]

Those who say God doesn't exist, what if you're wrong?

Reminds me of an interviewer who asked an athiest the same question.

The athiest's answer was, "i would ask God, you gave cancer to children? How could you?"

 

[Darkrai]

Reminds me of an interviewer who asked an athiest the same question.

The athiest's answer was, "i would ask God, you gave cancer to children? How could you?"

The only thing he/she would be asking is for forgiveness...

The innocent children go to heaven. This life, as you may know, is not very just, which is why there is heaven and hell.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

The innocent children go to heaven. This life, as you may know, is not very just, which is why there is heaven and hell.

Will innocent children get wide eyed maidens and young boys too? They don't tell us what the women get, summat about their partner in real life, that's bad luck for her man, especially if she still has to share him with up to three other women.

 

[Darkrai]

Will innocent children get wide eyed maidens and young boys too? They don't tell us what the women get, summat about their partner in real life, that's bad luck for her man, especially if she still has to share him with up to three other women.

Before saying nonsense i suggest you improve your knowledge of Islam.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

And before someone steps in with the women need less sex is talking from a position of centuries of patriarchy stretching back 10,000 years, in that time all societies cept some island communities have socialized women, some more than others, especially the Abrahamic religions. For evidence of this socialization look no further than bonobo and chimps, but then science isn't a strong point, nor logic in front of faith based emotional reason and rationale.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Will innocent children get wide eyed maidens and young boys too? They don't tell us what the women get, summat about their partner in real life, that's bad luck for her man, especially if she still has to share him with up to three other women.

What kind of disgusting nonsense is this? Just because for some strange reason the mods have allowed Islam to be abused openly now, it doesnt mean you are right. You say your own family members are Muslims? Then go ask your mom if her grandchildren will get young boys to pleasure in the afterlife? Let us know what she says and then we can discuss this further.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Then go ask your mom if her grandchildren will get young boys to pleasure in the afterlife? Let us know what she says and then we can discuss this further.

It's not important what my mom thinks. How do you know she's alive. What's important is what do you think?

 

[KingKhanWC]

It's not important what my mom thinks. How do you know she's alive. What's important is what do you think?

Any family member? You do not know me or anyone on here. Surely it's more important to you what your own blood are believing. Put your arguments to them and give us a review of their responses. Besides there is nothing you have wrote on here which is worthy of a rebuttal. You only registered to spend time abusing peoples religions. Nice hobby.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Surely it's more important to you what your own blood are believing.

Why? I don't think it is more important.

Put your arguments to them and give us a review of their responses.

I have and like I mentioned previously confronting religious folks with evidence/facts is like trying to stop a raging bull with handfuls of grass. Faith based emotional rationale is helluva beast.

Besides there is nothing you have wrote on here which is worthy of a rebuttal

That's a novel debate tactic.

You only registered to spend time abusing peoples religions. Nice hobby

I've been lurking on this forum for a number of years before I joined. The religious debates interest me the most. Tho I have contributed to many threads.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Why? I don't think it is more important.



I have and like I mentioned previously confronting religious folks with evidence/facts is like trying to stop a raging bull with handfuls of grass. Faith based emotional rationale is helluva beast.



That's a novel debate tactic.



I've been lurking on this forum for a number of years before I joined. The religious debates interest me the most. Tho I have contributed to many threads.

What interests you is spreading hate against Muslims. By saying you are from a Muslim family behind your keyboard you think this will give you some legitimacy but it doesn't. You cant convince your own family, yet you think you can come on here and convince others? lol.

Are you an atheist? What is your belief? It's easy to attack when you have nothing to defend.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

What interests you is spreading hate against Muslims. By saying you are from a Muslim family behind your keyboard you think this will give you some legitimacy but it doesn't. You cant convince your own family, yet you think you can come on here and convince others? lol.

Not here to convince. I already told you evidence v faith is like grass v raging bull.

Are you an atheist? What is your belief? It's easy to attack when you have nothing to defend.

Science? Tho it doesn't need my defence, stands on its own, insult it all you like.

 

[DeadBall]

Before saying nonsense i suggest you improve your knowledge of Islam.

Most of the people rebutting Islam (or any other religion for that matter) have more knowledge of it than the others who simply accept whatever is taught to them and follow it blindly. Following something blindly and feeling that warm, secure, safe feeling is easier than questioning the norm. It may help many sleep better at night but not some others.

I have learned to stay away from such threads, but your condescending yet baseless accusation was too much.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Not here to convince. I already told you evidence v faith is like grass v raging bull.

lol What evidence? All you have done is post nonsense in order to offend. School boy atheists have done a better job than you.

Science? Tho it doesn't need my defence, stands on its own, insult it all you like.

Science is not a belief it's a study. You dont own science, it's for all to use including people who believe in a Creator which is why there are many scientists who believe in a God.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

lol What evidence? All you have done is post nonsense in order to offend. School boy atheists have done a better job than you.

My evidence is the Qur'an.

Science is not a belief it's a study. You dont own science, it's for all to use including people who believe in a Creator which is why there are many scientists who believe in a God.

Then perhaps humanism comes close to satisfy your criteria. Tho either the golden or platinum rule is suffice for morals. Yes, many scientist do, including those who believe in evolution.

 

[KingKhanWC]

My evidence is the Qur'an.

You wrote "I already told you evidence v faith " So now it's Quran v Faith? I think you are a little confused.

Then perhaps humanism comes close to satisfy your criteria. Tho either the golden or platinum rule is suffice for morals. Yes, many scientist do, including those who believe in evolution.

Humanists cant even agree on what they all believe, you will fit right in. You are merely indulging in confused trolling. I suggest you discuss this with your Muslim family, they might be able to make sense of what you are saying because of their unconditional love for you.

 

[Darkrai]

Most of the people rebutting Islam (or any other religion for that matter) have more knowledge of it than the others who simply accept whatever is taught to them and follow it blindly. Following something blindly and feeling that warm, secure, safe feeling is easier than questioning the norm. It may help many sleep better at night but not some others.

I have learned to stay away from such threads, but your condescending yet baseless accusation was too much.

If i'm wrong and God doesn't exist, then so what? Nothing will happen to me. I will die and that will be the end of the story. But if god does exist, then our story will continue in afterlife, you can imagine the rest.

Putting all that aside. There is nothing bad about Islam. If you properly follow Islam it will only make you a good person. If following Islam makes one happy and makes them a better person then what is so bad about Islam?

I've seen people use black magic through the knowledge they gained from Islam, I think i'll stick to what i know and what i believe. You can stick to your beliefs. There shouldn't be a problem useless that is the motivation.

 

[Smbhayi]

absolutely yes..

 

[Devilsadvokat]

You wrote "I already told you evidence v faith " So now it's Quran v Faith? I think you are a little confused.

In this specific case, wide eyed maidens and young boys, my evidence is the Qur'an, do you want chapter and verse, or should I say Surat and verse?

Humanists cant even agree on what they all believe, you will fit right in.

I throw you a bone regarding Humanism, and this is how you use it! I think you'll find it's the Muslim who can't agree on what they all believe, hence 70 odd different sects, internecine warfare, Sunni v Shia, etc.

You are merely indulging in confused trolling. I suggest you discuss this with your Muslim family, they might be able to make sense of what you are saying because of their unconditional love for you.

I suggest you man up and debate instead of throwing out ad hominems, whataboutery, pedantry and no substance to any of your allegations.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

If i'm wrong and God doesn't exist, then so what? Nothing will happen to me. I will die and that will be the end of the story. But if god does exist, then our story will continue in afterlife, you can imagine the rest.

That's Pascals Wager, look up the criticisms of Pascal Wager.

Putting all that aside. There is nothing bad about Islam. If you properly follow Islam it will only make you a good person. If following Islam makes one happy and makes them a better person then what is so bad about Islam?

For the vast vast majority of Muslims that works, what they don't know is that they don't have to be Muslim to be a better person. I could tell you what a better person would have included in the Qur'an, no slavery for starters.

I've seen people use black magic through the knowledge they gained from Islam, I think i'll stick to what i know and what i believe. You can stick to your beliefs. There shouldn't be a problem useless that is the motivation.

YouTube uploads 48 hours of footage every second or summat stupid like that and not one second of any black magic, voodoo, woo woo, etc ever been uploaded.

Even rare events like someone filming someone else getting hit by lightening, the chances for which are over one in a billion has, last time I looked, ten incidences of person being struck by lightening. Not one second of any of the world's superstitions.

 

[Darkrai]

That's Pascals Wager, look up the criticisms of Pascal Wager.



For the vast vast majority of Muslims that works, what they don't know is that they don't have to be Muslim to be a better person. I could tell you what a better person would have included in the Qur'an, no slavery for starters.



YouTube uploads 48 hours of footage every second or summat stupid like that and not one second of any black magic, voodoo, woo woo, etc ever been uploaded.

Even rare events like someone filming someone else getting hit by lightening, the chances for which are over one in a billion has, last time I looked, ten incidences of person being struck by lightening. Not one second of any of the world's superstitions.

You have to understand some things in Quran were meant for a specific time period. Somethings that may have been relevant in that time period may not be relevant anymore. In Islam everyone is equal. No race is superior to another race.

Read this:
https://www.islamicity.org/14269/misreading-slavery-and-polygamy-in-the-quran/

I said i've seen people do black magic with my own eyes, i'm talking about watching a video or being tricked. Trust me i didn't believe in any of this like a little over an year ago. When my friend told me about this stuff i was like your are full of **. I just wasn't the type of person to ever believe in something like that until i saw it with my own eyes.

 

[Mages]

Why not? Allah is putting emphasis on certain things in order to highlights it's virtue or benefit, Allah knows best.

It is just to put emphasis on the statement that is being made. We humans have things which are greater than us. We can swear by these things to show how serious we are. But God is greatest and nothing is grrater than Him. So he need not follow the same rule which us humans are bound by due to our limitations. You arent saying something new here. Throughout the history of Islam the Islamic scholars have had no problem in dealing with this particular question.

Swearing is a human trait unnecessary for the All Mighty. It’s strange for God to swear upon fruits, animals , star, wind etc just to highlight it’s benefit. Even stranger is Allah swearing on the Pen which is a human creation, specifically an ancient Egyptian invention!!

He seems human enough, all his 99 attributes/names are human qualities. He demands worship without question. He bribes with tales if wide-eyed maidens and young boys (Yes, young boys). He threatens with eternal fire. He can't be All-merciful and All-justice at the same time. He is a contradiction (contradictions explained away by other contradictions).

Allah is Most merciful, that is the correct translation, All merciful is the wrong translation and the first translation is in agreement of what we know from revelation, for example disbelievers will be subject to Allah justice and will be punished.
As for those who compare the mercy of Mankind to the one who Created mercy in the first place shows their lack of understanding of Allah when he says there is nothing like Allah, and whatever we think of Allah, Allah is other than that.

One of the 99 names is Al-Mu’min, i.e The Believer. This is should be only applicable to humans not God, unless anyone here knows what/who does God believe in?
As for the name Ar-Rahman, i.e Most Merciful, even Islamic sources imply it is a borrowed name of another God who “existed” in the time of the prophet.

The only thing he/she would be asking is for forgiveness...
The innocent children go to heaven. This life, as you may know, is not very just, which is why there is heaven and hell.

According to the hadith (Sunan Ibn Majah, The Book of the Sunnah, Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 82), even innocent children who die may go to hell too.