Yes, that book is called Al-Qur'an and it's divinity has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Do you believe in God?
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Yes, that book is called Al-Qur'an and it's divinity has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Robert
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Yes, there are - police, courts, prisons and so on.
You can be an atheist and accept the Golden Rule. I have met many atheists who are kinder people than some religious individuals of my acquaintance.
Dr_Bassim
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See that is the problem.
No atheist will believe that Quran is the divine book just because you said so.
Robert
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Because many were brought up to be religious and were very miserable. It’s self-therapy. Like leaving an abusive relationship. They are slowly rejecting religious programming. They are working through their pain.
Yes, but that was never Allah swt's aim.. if it were so, there wouldn't be any disbelievers in the world.
I think you are not getting my point. Please read my posts below the one you quoted to get the context right.
Golden rule fails in case of ISIS.
Dr_Bassim
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I think belief or disbelief is dependent on the individual.
It is not Allah's will that people should disbelieve.
That would make the whole concept of "right path" false.
If nothing happens without Allah's will, then people disbelieving in Allah swt is also as per Him.
Allah swt guides those whom He wills.
Robert
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Your point is that atheists are more likely to cause harm because they have one less level of constraint. I disagree. It depends on one’s weak or strong belief in the values placed in said constraints.
Religion also fails in case of ISIS.
Yes, but I am not claiming Atheists to be potential rapists or murderers. Just as you said, I am claiming they have one lesser restraint, because they lack objective perfect morality which only Allah swt can give.
Religion doesn't fail in case of ISIS, as ISIS is not following the Islamic teaching. However, ISIS follows Golden rule (classical definition) that they are ready to be killed in order to kill others.
Dr_Bassim
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Basically you're saying if you're screwed, you're screwed ?
All I am saying is that morality is only decided by Allah.. human morality is subjective.
Dr_Bassim
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That's an evasive answer designed to avoid confrontation.
I have no issue with making a prolonged argument.
If you say that disbelievers are disbelieving because Allah wants them to, then surely there is a case for the disbeliever to say on day of Judgment that I disbelieved because you willed me to.
However it is said in the Quran that "No soul will be wronged", which clearly means "every soul will be judged according to his deeds which he did of his own account not because Allah willed him to".
Very good argument.
I think we should ask ourselves whether the basic premise holds true. The concept of free will is fine, but are we saying something in this world happens without Allah swt's will ?
Does any rape or murder occur without Allah's will or permission ? Does Earthquake occur without Allah's wrath ?
If this life is a test, the free will must exist. Allah swt guides those whom He wills.. So, none will be guided whom Allah doesn't want.
Everything Happens because Allah wills it and free will are not in contradiction here.
First of you and me Agree that Allah is the creator of everything, this includes good and evil and everything else.
Allah creates all sorts of possible choices for a person, and we make a choice out of our given possible choices.
Since all created possibilities are created by Allah, regardless of what someone chooses, in the end Everything Is Because Allah willed it. IF Allah did not create evil you could not do evil and so on and so forth.
Robert
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That's not the Golden Rule as I understand it. ISIS are not following my understanding of it, or my understanding of Islam either.
Dr_Bassim
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Very nicely explained.
May Allah bless you.
I dont agree with a lot of things you said before, but this explanation makes perfect sense.
This explanation doesn't hold true, when we say that Allah "guides those whom He wills".. where does Allah swt "guide" them to ?
According to this explanation, Allah swt has just setup the playing field and all the moves, but doesn't "guide" anyone.
If guiding is at play, the free will takes a hit.
It's just my opinion, let me know yours.
This explanation doesn't hold true, when we say that Allah "guides those whom He wills".. where does Allah swt "guide" them to ?
According to this explanation, Allah swt has just setup the playing field and all the moves, but doesn't "guide" anyone.
If guiding is at play, the free will takes a hit.
It's just my opinion, let me know yours.
OK.. then we applied Golden rule definitions differently I suppose. Please point me to your definition and we can work on that.
I wouldn't say ISIS are not following Islam, they surely are, and some of their actions are indeed driven by Islamic teaching, but are they following it in the true context ? I am not sure about that.
It doesn't make ISIS un-Islamic though.. as only Allah swt can decide which interpretation is Islamic and what's not.
Even the peaceful version of Islam, is followed by cherry pickers, so why blame ISIS alone for wrong interpretation of Islam ? We all interpret the message in our own ways, and try to cherry pick.
At this moment in time can you choose to be live or disbelieve?. Allah has created both choices for you so If you take the choice of Belief it Is Because Allah willed it and if you take the choice of disbelief it Is also because Allah Willed it, both choices are a creation of Allah, you merely have the Choice to make.
Free will in this instance is choosing from Created choices That Allah has created.
You are right that Allah swt has created both the choices and laid out the outcomes.. but does He "guide" us to any of the choices ?
It falls again to predestination question.
Allah Guides whom he wills by creating situations and Choices in that persons life which convince them of the truth, However That person still has to take the path.
Let's take 2 persons. If Allah guides one and not the other, he can claim on the judgment day that I was not guided enough to see the truth.
Yet that would in no way take away from Allah justice, since All creation is just that A creation Of Allah, And As Allah is the true owner of the universe and everything within it, it Is Allah Right to do what he wills.
If Allah plays partiality, then it is not exactly a fair test.
None of this Applies to Allah, Allah is not judged by our moral Compass or ideas of equality or justice, all of these are created ideas and principles, nothing created can be used as A yardstick to Judge the Creator, since none of the above applies to the creator.
It is impossible for Allah to be Unjust Since no one can impose a moral standard on Allah.
So, in effect you are saying that Allah can not be immoral or unjust, because whatever Allah does is the definition of justice and fairness.
Good point.
Exactly Since Allah is the creator of everything, Whatever he does with his creation is with his full right to do so.
Robert
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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I’m not blaming them for that, I blame them for being abominable.
Suicide bombers don't mind you killing them in order to kill you.
If ISIS are following Islam, then you are in fact blaming Islam as an ideology.
You see, as I told you earlier, I believe there is a God/ Super Consciousness/ Creator. Religion/belief system gives a sense of purpose, comfort & solace to many of their believers. For instance, a Native American may believe that trees have Spirits & He has to respect them, Why should I have a problem with that? On the other hand, I’m sceptical when religions especially Abrahamic one claim monopoly of truth, wisdom & morality and declare their myths as facts & the myth of others as fables. Let me put it in perspective, I‘m thankful that I have a great & blissful life. I enjoy every moment of it and am comfortable in the culture I was born in. Recently a Christian acquaintance spoke to me about Jesus being the only true God/Saviour etc & gave me some reading material. It was an interesting read but nothing moved me or blew my mind away that compelled me go to the extent to convert, though I had the freedom. Now I should burn in Hell for eternity for my friend’s failure to convince me to accept Christ? What's my fault, does it makes fair sense?
As for your claim that Quran’s divinity is proven beyond doubt, it’s just a claim & the burden of prove is on you.
Now, just reading the above few posts, I can see Muslims can’t come to an agreement on free will and/or predestination. From what I've learnt thus far from other sources, there is no real free will in Islam. Even your "evil" act is pre-ordained for you & shall rot in Hell eternally for it. Again does it make fair sense?
I can't comment on Christianity, but the God is same in the three Abrahamic religions, though the interpretations are different.
As for the holy Qur'an's validity, it has been proven from the fact that 1400 years later, still the Qur'anic challenge of being unique and inimitable hasn't been met. People have tried a lot, but couldn't even bring a Surah like it.
References:
“Say: ‘If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another.’” (Quran 17:88)
“Or do they say that he has invented it? Say (to them), ‘Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call (for help) on whomever you can besides God, if you are truthful.” (Quran 11:13)
“And if you all are in doubt about what I have revealed to My servant, bring a single chapter like it, and call your witnesses besides God if you are truthful.” (Quran 2:23)
This claim is a bit absurd. There's better works of poetry out there than the Qur'an. I don't understand this claim at all.
Also how is it a fact? Poetry like music or your choice in any form of art is subjective. You might like something that others don't. So how does it become a fact? Does the Qur'an get critical acclaim from the world over for being the best poetry even written? No, it does not.
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Evil acts are a creation of Allah but the human chooses to commit the act, that is why their is accountability and judgement because of this ability to choose.
If human chooses to commit these acts and Allah can't stop him then, due to his free will, why should we thank Allah if by some chance, we are saved from a monster who is out there to harm us. We know for sure that Allah wouldn't stop him .
The fact that no poet in the history has been able to meet the Qur'anic challenge is enough proof of it's inimitable nature.
I am not sure what other proof could convince you of Qur'an being divine.
Unless you speak Arabic ,have learnt classical Arabic and studied all available pre-Islamic and post-Islamic Arabic poetry then you have no way to conclude Quran is the best Arabic poetry availabe. Even if it's the best, does it make it divine? No. For instance, no one can make a poetry in Sanskrit like Kalidasa (500 BC). Now I can claim it's divine? No. Beauty & imimitablity of a poerty or language has nothing to do with proof of divinity.
Both you & Musakhel are Muslims but can't even agree on freewill & predestination. If Quran is divine , such a basic tenet should have been easy & clear.
As for the challenge of the Quran, well since you have started to quote verses, I will too. In the verse below & it's tafsir clearly indicates that Satan could make verses indistuighable from the ones from Allah to the extend that even the prophet was unable to differentiate it.
Never did We send a Messenger or a Prophet before you, but; when he did recite the revelation or narrated or spoke, Shaitan (Satan) threw (some falsehood) in it. But Allah abolishes that which Shaitan (Satan) throws in. Then Allah establishes His Revelations. And Allah is All-Knower, All-Wise: (Quran 22 52)
'...but that when he recited the scripture Satan cast into his recitation what is not from the Qur’ān but which those to whom he the prophet had been sent would find pleasing......as a result of Satan casting them onto his tongue without his the Prophet’s being aware of it the following words...... "(* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn Quran 22 52)
Click below for the full tafsir
https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=22&tAyahNo=52&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
Again, how is this a fact? Can you back this up with proof? if anything, it is an opinion and that too a rather deluded one. You need to understand the difference between fact and opinion.
What is the criteria set for this poetry competition? What are the key elements that makes Qur'an stand out against other works of poetry? Who is judging this competition?
Don't quite understand what you mean?
Do we ever thank Allah for helping us from a monster .. for example any woman who is about to be raped by a rapist, and suddenly gets saved by some hero.. does that woman thank Allah or that hero ?
Rapes, Murders, land slides, HIV, Cancer all happen because Allah Wished and willed them?
She thanks both the hero and Allah.
I don't think you quite understood my post, free will in Islam is not that you create your own intention and than act upon it, rather Allah creates your intention, and creates a number of choices for you and you choose from the created choices.
Rapes, Murders, land slides, HIV, Cancer all happen because Allah Wished and willed them?
In Islam we know from the Quran, that Allah created everything both good and evil.
So you have to blame God everytime a Rape or Murder or Robbery or any natural disaster happens. Agreed?
For any evil act commited by a human, the blame fully lies with that Indiviual, at any moment in time Allah can create the will within a person to commit evil but does not force that person to commit the act, the same applies to any act.
If any natural disaster happens, we say it is Allah will or even punishment.
So God creates Evil and makes humans to commit sin. Do not tell me the sin is done by human. You have clearly mentioned above that everything happens due to God's will. So God has created Evil (Rape, Murder...) and also is making the humans commit that terrible sin.
So natural disasters happen and many innocents die, it is also God's will. What a cruel God. I don't even want to go to the punishment part as it sounds too ridiculous.
Everything is by Allah will simply means nothing in this universe can happen without Allah permission, simple as that.
Do you ever feel forced to do something? No, so that is your free will, for example if you punched someone. Allah created that act but you choose to carry it out.
The same Creator that gives life has the same right to take it, in the end Everything Is simply his creation and he has complete power to do as he wills.
You yourself are saying everything happens by Allah's will. So Allah wanted me to punch an innocent or skill someone.
Then you go on to say that it is free will. Double talk here from you clearly.
Do I ever felt forced to punch someone? Yes, if I mistake an innocent to be of someone who caused me harm, my rage will force me to punch the innocent. But then God has willed and wanted me to punch the innocent too as nothing happens without the will of God.
You are just beating around the bush man.
But Allah will not interfere in rapist's choice to rape the woman.. neither the hero's choice to save her.. so why thank Allah ?
You don't understand what I am saying.
At this moment in time Allah creates for a person X number of choices but that person only chooses one from the choices available to them.
You answered my question, when you said my rage will force me, in the end it is your choice to punch or not to punch, you were not forced to punch, in a court of law will they accept your excuse?
Just because Allah creates the choice for us to do evil, it does not mean, he forced us to do evil.
All the above ties into the saying that Everything Happens by Allah will, it means If Allah did not create those choices you could not carry out those choices.
That is why their is accountability and judgement, because of this ability to choose from Created choices.
If you thank or do not thank Allah it does not matter, As Allah is free of needs whilst we are always in need.
hitthestump
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This is spoken about in the Quran. Somebody who is emphatically resistant and looking for errors will never find guidance by reading the Quran, even if all the signs were laid out in front of them. Only if they approach it with a view to seeking guidance does it then become clear to them.
A great example of this is the story of the people of Thamud in Al-Hijr.
I am not saying if her saying thanks will matter to Allah or not, I am just saying that whether she should thank Allah.. in the sense whether the credit for saving her from rape should go to Allah or not..
If Allah didn't make the hero go and save her, it was his own choice, and if the hero didn't take the choice, the woman would not be saved. The credit then, only goes to the hero.. not to Allah.
Yes, someone who is looking for errors will only find errors in Qur'an.. only an unbiased mind can understand the guidance and beauty of the message.
Allah created the choice, and he choose it.
If Allah did not create that choice than he could not help her.
Yes, but Allah created the choice for rapist also, so Allah should take the blame for the rape too.. will a woman thank someone who played a part in her rape ?
yes but Allah did not force the rapist to choose evil.
Rather Allah commands us to do good, the rapist in this case is a disobedient slave of Allah.
So God creates x number of choices for me and I will be choosing my actions.
Does god already know what I am going to pick? If he does, then there is no point of choices. If he does not, then God does not know everything and he is not All knowing supreme power.
Of course Allah knows what you will choose, but you are the one that chooses.
Why is there no point in choice?, if you are the one choosing?
This choice we have to do good or bad is why there is judgement, punishment and reward.
If God already knows what I am going to choose, everything is predestined. So where is the test in this?
So God sets the Test and he already knows the outcome. Why even test then? Sounds silly on God’s part.
Dear chucklee, it is impossible for a human being to negate existence of God and yet be logically consistent as well.
The main question is, can anything come into existence from absolute nothingness? The answer is a clear no. Why not? Because if there was nothing at all there to begin with then there is nothing there to give rise to something or anything. This is why zero cannot become one no matter what. In other words if the starting point does not exist or is not there for something to continue or happen then there cannot be continuation of something or its beginning. If there is no beginning point for a race then race cannot take place. If race has taken place then we have no choice but to accept the race started from a point.
This is why atheism is nonsense or illogical position to hold regarding existence of God. The actual problem is not about existence of God but whether we can know at all if God exists and if he does exist what has that to do with us human beings. Many human beings are struggling to find out and that is where religions and concept of revelation come in.
Even if we accept all religious opinions are wrong about God and universe yet we must continue looking for better and better answers in this regard which make better and better sense rather than reject the idea of existence of God just because we are still not able to find out things for ourselves. We human beings need to keep in mind that existence of God cannot be negated at all no matter what. All we can do is keep looking for more and more information in this regard till we reach the conclusive point. After all we are not born all knowing rather we learn from birth till death. We know our knowledge is incomplete about this universe because there are many things about we do not know at all or in every aspect and we will never know them at all.
The other thing we need to concentrate upon is revelation concept and how it may help us solve this problem. After all what is life and living if we have no challenges in our lives? When we talk about revelation concept we need to realise that message of God is strange thing for us. It is because God will have to use human language to communicate to humanity but human beings themselves are very limited when it comes to use to language. Not each and every person among us is a phd in human language. So decoding message of God properly in our human language is another challenge for us just like a human baby struggles to understand his parents etc when they interact with him.
Once we overcome these hurdles ie logical consistency and decoding of God's message only then we are in a position to get hang of message of God. Here most theists and atheists mostly behave in a stupid way by taking a definite stand without any reasonable foundation rather than setting each other challenges and helping each other meet those challenges. They each think it is the other who should prove his point and that it has nothing at all to do with them where as in actual fact it is a problem for both the parties therefore both must work together to help find solution. So we will have to wait till people come to realise these points.
In my own view the quran is the only book in the world which claims to be word of God so it must be examined thoroughly by all on that basis to see if it is consistent with its claim or not. In order to do that people must learn its language as well besides knowing the mechanism which can help decode this book because if it is truly a revelation from God then we need to have idea of deciding it. These things we cannot leave to philosopher, scientists or mullahs etc. It is a challenge for each and every human being as an individual as well as the whole of humanity.
So people who talk a lot of nonsense about God and the quran or any messenger of God have no idea at all about these points which I am trying to make people understand or realise. All arguments therefore do not serve any purpose till people understand these very basic points in this regard. If we all cooperated in this regard then by finding out bit by bit about things we will one day discover the truth beyond any reasonable doubt. Till then we each must do our bit of homework regarding this issue or challenge so that one day we could meet it.
regards and all the best.
Dear axis, could you please point me out who has proven the divinity of this book and how or when?
regards and all the best.
Dear bassim, has any atheist studied the quran himself if yes who and when? Moreover how did that person come to know how to decode message of God? To claim one understands word of God one has to explain the mechanism involved for its proper understanding. Otherwise any such claim is nothing at all. This is true not only in case atheists but theists also. Our claims for or against must be backed up by relevant evidences otherwise they are just claims and nothing more.
regards and all the best.
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If someone creates a gun, and gives the gun to a killer, and killer kills a human with that gun, should the gun creator and provider not take any blame ?
Dear enkidu, word zikr has many meanings including the one you have used. It also means you spread awareness of my word among mankind and I will spread awareness of your word among mankind. Further more it means you give due respect to me or my word and I will thereby give you your due respect and dignity. In other words God is saying you do what I say and I will make sure you do well. Truth lies in God and humanity becoming one by being on the same page ie in meeting of minds of God and people. This is what words ateeullaha wa rasoolahoo mean. Consistency between God his messenger and rest of people. Deen of islam is fundamentally about consistency between God, his messengers and supporters of this mission. This is what word ITIBA mean in proper quranic context. Deen of islam is a mission given to his messengers by God. People either support that mission or oppose it. If they support it, they end up a great people but if they oppose it then things remain problematic for them. The reason is deen of islam is mainly about people living in this world properly. This is why it is also called the way of life which if understood properly and followed faithfully by humanity will lead it to blissful, dignified and secure existence otherwise humanity will keep on facing a lot of instability and painful suffering as a consequence.
regards and all the best.
I explained the divinity in the posts following the one you quoted.. kindly read them.. the challenge of the Qur'an hasn't been met yet 1400 years, despite the poets world over trying their very best to create a surah like it.
So that no soul can claim injustice on the day of judgment. The test is to give the soul no chance of any claim that she didn't deserve hell ..
If you commit wrong and immoral acts on the planet, i.e. shirk, theft, murder, rape, riba, eating pork, adultery, not giving zakaat etc. you will be punished in the afterlife.
Just by being a Muslim you will not be saved..
So, it is not the case that all non-Muslims will alone go to hell, and all Muslims will enter Jannah.. it is very much possible that some Muslims also will go to hell.
No dear axis, gun creator cannot be blamed because you need to look at the issue in its proper context. The purpose for which gun creator created the gun is not evil but good. If someone misuses something he is to blame not the provider of means which could be put to either use ie good as well as evil.
regards and all the best.
Did Prophet Muhammad SAW understand the whole Qur'an ? Was He pbuh the best interpreter of the message? Did Allah swt protect the interpretation from corruption or just the content from corruption ?
What is the purpose of Allah swt to create evil like rape ? What purpose does rape serve ?
No dear troodon, it is not responsibility of anyone to prove to you anything at all rather it is your own responsibility to prove things to yourself by taking up the challenges which life throws at you. By throwing your responsibility upon shoulders of others you are running away from the challenges that face you just like all other individuals. Others can only help you learn about the facing challenges and perhaps help you meet those challenges to a degree but ultimately it is your own thoughts and actions which matter for you.
regards and all the best.
The challenge in the Quran(17:88) was for both Jinns & humans. I showed you in post #198 (partially reposted below) where Satan (a Jinn) could make verses similar to Allah and the prophet couldn't detect it. You did not respond to it.
We need to understand Qur'an in it's proper context.. but sadly the western morality (or should I dare say, immorality) has corrupted the minds of our Muslim brothers and sisters and they are challenging the verses in the Qur'an and changing their meaning.
It is nothing but Shirk, the greatest sin in Islam.
The test is for us to pass, Of course everything is predestined, but that is not an excuse to fail the test since Allah sends us guidance In order to guide us to the correct path but we have the Choice to accept or reject that guidance.
It may be silly to you, but you are not the creator, The Creator has given us a test and we have to pass it that is our reality today.
No if the creator of the gun clearly states for you to use it only in self defence, but the killer uses it otherwise than the Gun creator has no fault in the killers crime.
When is rape ever used in self defense ?
I was talking about a gun.
The verse translation itself is quite clear besides the major tafsirs i.e Al-Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas (prophet's cousin), etc confirm that Satan sneaked in verses into prophet's mouth without him realizing it. Obvious he couldn't make out the difference. So these scholars are commiting Shirk by their misunderstanding & misinterpretations!!?
Yes, but the concept applies to rape as well.
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