Events that have cost Pakistan cricket

I honestly never understood number 3. What made that spell so special? Guy bowled some good balls and a couple of bouncers ... We have seen bowlers like Styne, Lee, etc bowl those regularly. Till today, I have no idea why it was "special" considering Pak lost
 
I never listed the causes of Pakistan's problems. Just listed how some events which we thought were good have actually caused immense damage to Pakistan cricket.

My first and foremost cause of Pakistan's decline in cricket and in all other sports will be the economic collapse of the country. A close second will be the moral collapse in people. Corruption in Pakistan is actually rewarded. I can go on an on as to the problems plaguing Pakistan cricket but that's for another time.
If the point is the excessive harping on about one-off successes is immensely damaging - my answer is then create the conditions for consistent success which pushes 1992 and 2017 into the background.

I agree our players are ill-equipped to handle success. But these things are relative and our exclusion from the IPL and constant administrative turmoil is by an order of magnitude far more damaging to our cricket.

Besides are Pakistan unique in celebrating miraculous successes ? Not a home summer goes by without England mentioning the 2005 Ashes and 2019 Headingley victories. Neither have been a long-term impediment to later English success.

Indeed sports is a product of society. That brings me onto another topic I was reluctant to raise as it inevitably flares emotions - the increasing Jamaatification of Pakistan since the 1980s has hindered the nation's growth in all aspects.

Beyond the obvious point that it sowed the seeds for militancy that exiled us to UAE (which I don't think was as damaging as people make) - it's created a generation of Pakistanis who lack critical thinking skills, socially awkward, are readily accepting of conspiracy theories/false narratives, and "God will do all the planning" mindsets.

Our players are products of this flawed society so how can we expect anything different ?
 
If the point is the excessive harping on about one-off successes is immensely damaging - my answer is then create the conditions for consistent success which pushes 1992 and 2017 into the background.

I agree our players are ill-equipped to handle success. But these things are relative and our exclusion from the IPL and constant administrative turmoil is by an order of magnitude far more damaging to our cricket.

Besides are Pakistan unique in celebrating miraculous successes ? Not a home summer goes by without England mentioning the 2005 Ashes and 2019 Headingley victories. Neither have been a long-term impediment to later English success.

Indeed sports is a product of society. That brings me onto another topic I was reluctant to raise as it inevitably flares emotions - the increasing Jamaatification of Pakistan since the 1980s has hindered the nation's growth in all aspects.

Beyond the obvious point that it sowed the seeds for militancy that exiled us to UAE (which I don't think was as damaging as people make) - it's created a generation of Pakistanis who lack critical thinking skills, socially awkward, are readily accepting of conspiracy theories/false narratives, and "God will do all the planning" mindsets.

Our players are products of this flawed society so how can we expect anything different ?

I would love to a see thread from you on this. I get that it might flare emotions but as a longstanding and respected poster on PP who's watched cricket far longer than most of us on here, I feel there's no one more worthy of giving their account on this and the changes you've witnessed over the years. It would mean a lot to us.
 
People might not agree but I genuinely believe there have been certain events that have actually caused damage to Pakistan cricket.

1) World Cup 1992 win: The win itself wasn't problematic. The manner of the victory, though, has caused immense damage. The whole cornered tigers story has infused a level of mediocrity and a willingness to not improve the culture of Pakistani cricket. Suddenly, winning from a position of complete despair became somewhat of a mystical triumph. Articles started appearing on how Pakistan roars back from nowhere. "Haal" is a term coined by journalists that is somehow celebrated. One day the team will beat peak Australia, the other day shell a complete home series to Zimbabwe. And all of this was beautifully wrapped up in a present called "inconsistency" which was to be believed as something extraordinary. It's been nearly 32 years since this World Cup win, yet every tournament is compared to World Cup 1992.

2) Champions Trophy 2017 win: Again, the same situation repeats itself. On the brink of elimination and somehow manages to win the tournament against all odds. Hailed as a revelation. Proceeds to get whitewashed by NZ 5-0 in ODIs straight after. No introspection because we've just won the Champions Trophy. If the effects of 1992 were slightly wearing thin, 2017 reinforced everything that Pakistan should have been vying to get away with. Back to square on with the "underdogs winning against all odds" mentality. What's worse was it gave Mickey Arthur a free reign as he was thought of as a super coach. What does he do next? Play 3 fast bowlers in UAE and get whitewashed. Gets another opportunity to coach Pakistan because he won the 2017 Champions Trophy

3) Wahab Riaz's spell to Watson: Only Pakistan could hype up a spell that did nothing for Pakistan. Lost the match comfortably. But what it did was allow Wahab Riaz to play unconditionally for the next 6-7 years. Pakistani fans lapped up all of that spell and Brian Lara's "I'll pay Wahab's fine" comment to end up with zero output from Wahab over the next half-a-decade.

4) Nawaz's cameo against India in Asia Cup 2022: That innings where he came in and smashed 40 odd to allow the team to chase 180+ against India was just debilitating for Pakistan. It may have meant that Pakistan won that match but it ensured Nawaz got a run in the team for the next 1 year without any accountability despite him choking time and time again in crunch situations (most notably World Cup match against India). Had he not played that innings, Pakistan might have tried other spinners and possibly found 1 good-ish spinner. Nawaz's batting was always non-existent but that 1 fluke innings has cost Pakistan dearly and still continues to cost them.

Pakistan's problem has always been lack of game-awareness and as the years pass by, the lack of talent on the pitch is growing along with it. There is no individual brilliance now in the team that can mask these other inconsistencies. If Pakistan somehow miraculously manages to win this tournament (highly unlikely) this will perpetuate another cycle of mediocrity where inconsistency will be rewarded handsomely. An absolute thrashing at a global tournament is probably good news for Pakistan cricket as that might force people to introspect.
yeah blame the winning team of the only World Cup we won 31 years ago is one of the reasons we are the state we are in. Makes sense
 
This team is just not good enough to reach the semis. Serves Babar, team management, and the selection committee right for not making the changes that were needed straight after The Asia Cup. In Sri Lanka, we struggled to take wickets in the middle overs.

Bowling lacks penetration. Mohammed Amir bowling in tandem with Shaheen Afridi would have been a more effective pace duo. Rauf leaks too many runs in every game; just not good enough at this level. Sheer pace is useless if you cannot swing or seam the ball. England's Mark Wood is having similar issues going for 10-11 rpo in almost every game. Should have selected a specialist spinner Abrar rather than bits and pieces spinners.

The batting approach is too timid and defensive and out of step with modern-day cricket. We lack power hitters. Only Abdullah and Rizwan bat with positive intent and try to put the pressure back on the opposition. The rest including Babar Azam score runs at SR of 75-80 which is slow by modern standards. What good use are such fifties if they do not benefit the team? Strike rotation and poor running between the wickets is also a major issue with this team.

Not only fielding but also field placement has been questionable many times during the tournament. Babar's captaincy has been poor. Just does not have the ability to make innovative bowling changes or think outside the box.
Lastly, we are paying the price for not developing bench strength. We need to have a pool of at least 8 to 10 players who are as good as the first XI so that if a key player is injured it does not cost the team so dearly. We did not have a suitable replacement for Naseem Shah. Our senior players do not need to play every single game against the weaker teams or matches that are not significant from a series POV. I don't know whether this is because of inflated egos, insecurity (fear of losing their place in the team if someone else performs well!), or just pure selfishness. This culture is hurting our cricket.
 
I would love to a see thread from you on this. I get that it might flare emotions but as a longstanding and respected poster on PP who's watched cricket far longer than most of us on here, I feel there's no one more worthy of giving their account on this and the changes you've witnessed over the years. It would mean a lot to us.
Look all I'll say is for decades our cricketers generally came from middle class and university/college educated backgrounds. They were urbane, self-confident and mixed readily around the world with other international players.

It coincided with our golden era from about the mid 70s (note - I haven't been watching cricket as long as that !) to early 90s. Since then our team primarily consists of players from small towns and villages.

I've nothing against that. However those players are typically more conservative, less likely to possess formal education, more readily accepting of superstition and mythology over process and planning, and find it harder to mix socially with people from other cultures.

That's one reason why our players have such inferiority complexes against Australia and India.

That's not an argument for 11 Shan Masoods or to stop selecting cricketers from poorer backgrounds. However cricket has become such a technical and analytical sport that the ability to process information and respond to different situations is critical (especially in fast paced white ball cricket), and education (not seminaries) teaches you that.
 
Do not agree with the OP. You can call ICC tournaments flukes or not, but never have I heard that winning a tournament is actually costly to the team.

I don't think Pakistan cricket is in this state due to match/tournament results/performances, in fact, the wins are a testament to the defiance of Pakistan cricket.

Here's why I think Pakistan cricket is in the state it is:

1. Lack of fearless/aggressive players & leaders. Not sure what to put this down to, nepotism, management, but it is not all Misbah. The last fearless player that springs to my mind is Shahid Afridi, and you can say what you want about him, but he had a certain aura about him, and thanks to him Pakistan won the World T20 in 2009, and took Pakistan to the SF of the WC in 2011. He added the jazba that is much needed right now.

2. Low salaries. You can argue till you are blue, but low salaries do not help with motivation. Why would a Pakistan player bust his guts off at the international level when he knows he can play a few tamasha leagues and earn way more? Pay the players market rates, BUT have them on performance related pay and bonuses and frankly ban them from tamasha leagues. Plus high pay will also deter players from fixing!

3. The PSL and other T20 leagues. Franchise cricket is tamasha level as it is, but the PSL, BPL, SPL, blah blah is simply a low quality league. Don't give me the excuse India produces quality players because of the IPL - they do not. Everything from the bowling to the batting in tamasha leagues, is detrimental to the development of technique, skill, talent, fitness, and mindset. Our players are failing against the top teams because they are used to crappy levels of bowling/batting in the PSL for example. Send Pakistan players to English county circuit instead! Moreover, stop bigging up players based on PSL performances!

4. Management. Whether it is Misbah, or Inzi, or a foreign/domestic coach, the level of Pakistan management has been dire for decades. Perhaps this is to do with the interference of politicians. On top of this, PCB needs to hire a proper sports psychologists. Oh, and ban social media for all the players too.

5. The fans, the media, and ex-players who have nothing better to do than to slate their Pakistan cricket, win or lose, have never helped. Before asking Pakistan cricket to be united, why not unite as a fanbase/media base first, get behind Pakistan cricket, then demand unity? This has NEVER happened post 1992.

6. I will not mention this point directly as it will open up a can of worms, because I think most of you know what it is, but Pakistan cricket team lack professionalism because their priorities on the field are all over the place.

7. Domestic structure and system. This goes without saying.

As for today's loss vs Afghanistan, yes it is upsetting, but Afghanistan beat England, Netherlands beat South Africa in the same WC. You know what this means right? In a few more years as the game expands to other countries, we will be seeing more of what we witnessed today, and there will come a time very very soon, when such results, will no longer be a shock anymore, but will be considered excitement.

And finally, Pakistan itself has and is going through some very tough times, in particular the cricket team which probably is the most challenged off-the-field from the top 8 members, whether with the spot fixing saga, or events of 2009, or lack of home series, yet still we somehow come out defying odds every now and then! Imagine how Pakistan would perform with just 25% improvement all round! Remember, it wasn't long ago when all of PP were surprised and satisfied with Pakistan's performance in the series vs SL. That time will come again, and will be prolonged - inshallah!

🤍 💚
 
I would like to add a few:
  1. A thin boundary between the personal religious beliefs of the players and their identity as a cricketer. Reports of proselytizing within the team are nothing new and these actions are highly discriminatory.
  2. Unreasonably conflation of talent with ability. The idea that there are natural talents is bunk. Just look to Netherlands, New Zealand and even some of the less marquee players of other international outfits. Preparation is the key. Practice to exhaustion is the key.
  3. Lack of a diverse fitness regiment. Most international players engage in a fitness regiment that includes rigorous strength training but an equal emphasis is placed on flexibility, nutrition, mental health fitness. Indian players often go group exercises such as meditation, yoga or other routines that promise mental health.
  4. Money. All of the above can be fixed with revenue. Pakistan likely does not have the cricket revenue to support an extensive infrastructure that can promote the above for more than just the national team.
 
People might not agree but I genuinely believe there have been certain events that have actually caused damage to Pakistan cricket.

1) World Cup 1992 win: The win itself wasn't problematic. The manner of the victory, though, has caused immense damage. The whole cornered tigers story has infused a level of mediocrity and a willingness to not improve the culture of Pakistani cricket. Suddenly, winning from a position of complete despair became somewhat of a mystical triumph. Articles started appearing on how Pakistan roars back from nowhere. "Haal" is a term coined by journalists that is somehow celebrated. One day the team will beat peak Australia, the other day shell a complete home series to Zimbabwe. And all of this was beautifully wrapped up in a present called "inconsistency" which was to be believed as something extraordinary. It's been nearly 32 years since this World Cup win, yet every tournament is compared to World Cup 1992.

2) Champions Trophy 2017 win: Again, the same situation repeats itself. On the brink of elimination and somehow manages to win the tournament against all odds. Hailed as a revelation. Proceeds to get whitewashed by NZ 5-0 in ODIs straight after. No introspection because we've just won the Champions Trophy. If the effects of 1992 were slightly wearing thin, 2017 reinforced everything that Pakistan should have been vying to get away with. Back to square on with the "underdogs winning against all odds" mentality. What's worse was it gave Mickey Arthur a free reign as he was thought of as a super coach. What does he do next? Play 3 fast bowlers in UAE and get whitewashed. Gets another opportunity to coach Pakistan because he won the 2017 Champions Trophy

3) Wahab Riaz's spell to Watson: Only Pakistan could hype up a spell that did nothing for Pakistan. Lost the match comfortably. But what it did was allow Wahab Riaz to play unconditionally for the next 6-7 years. Pakistani fans lapped up all of that spell and Brian Lara's "I'll pay Wahab's fine" comment to end up with zero output from Wahab over the next half-a-decade.

4) Nawaz's cameo against India in Asia Cup 2022: That innings where he came in and smashed 40 odd to allow the team to chase 180+ against India was just debilitating for Pakistan. It may have meant that Pakistan won that match but it ensured Nawaz got a run in the team for the next 1 year without any accountability despite him choking time and time again in crunch situations (most notably World Cup match against India). Had he not played that innings, Pakistan might have tried other spinners and possibly found 1 good-ish spinner. Nawaz's batting was always non-existent but that 1 fluke innings has cost Pakistan dearly and still continues to cost them.

Pakistan's problem has always been lack of game-awareness and as the years pass by, the lack of talent on the pitch is growing along with it. There is no individual brilliance now in the team that can mask these other inconsistencies. If Pakistan somehow miraculously manages to win this tournament (highly unlikely) this will perpetuate another cycle of mediocrity where inconsistency will be rewarded handsomely. An absolute thrashing at a global tournament is probably good news for Pakistan cricket as that might force people to introspect.
5) Shahid Afridi's 37 ball 100: Shahid
People might not agree but I genuinely believe there have been certain events that have actually caused damage to Pakistan cricket.

1) World Cup 1992 win: The win itself wasn't problematic. The manner of the victory, though, has caused immense damage. The whole cornered tigers story has infused a level of mediocrity and a willingness to not improve the culture of Pakistani cricket. Suddenly, winning from a position of complete despair became somewhat of a mystical triumph. Articles started appearing on how Pakistan roars back from nowhere. "Haal" is a term coined by journalists that is somehow celebrated. One day the team will beat peak Australia, the other day shell a complete home series to Zimbabwe. And all of this was beautifully wrapped up in a present called "inconsistency" which was to be believed as something extraordinary. It's been nearly 32 years since this World Cup win, yet every tournament is compared to World Cup 1992.

2) Champions Trophy 2017 win: Again, the same situation repeats itself. On the brink of elimination and somehow manages to win the tournament against all odds. Hailed as a revelation. Proceeds to get whitewashed by NZ 5-0 in ODIs straight after. No introspection because we've just won the Champions Trophy. If the effects of 1992 were slightly wearing thin, 2017 reinforced everything that Pakistan should have been vying to get away with. Back to square on with the "underdogs winning against all odds" mentality. What's worse was it gave Mickey Arthur a free reign as he was thought of as a super coach. What does he do next? Play 3 fast bowlers in UAE and get whitewashed. Gets another opportunity to coach Pakistan because he won the 2017 Champions Trophy

3) Wahab Riaz's spell to Watson: Only Pakistan could hype up a spell that did nothing for Pakistan. Lost the match comfortably. But what it did was allow Wahab Riaz to play unconditionally for the next 6-7 years. Pakistani fans lapped up all of that spell and Brian Lara's "I'll pay Wahab's fine" comment to end up with zero output from Wahab over the next half-a-decade.

4) Nawaz's cameo against India in Asia Cup 2022: That innings where he came in and smashed 40 odd to allow the team to chase 180+ against India was just debilitating for Pakistan. It may have meant that Pakistan won that match but it ensured Nawaz got a run in the team for the next 1 year without any accountability despite him choking time and time again in crunch situations (most notably World Cup match against India). Had he not played that innings, Pakistan might have tried other spinners and possibly found 1 good-ish spinner. Nawaz's batting was always non-existent but that 1 fluke innings has cost Pakistan dearly and still continues to cost them.

Pakistan's problem has always been lack of game-awareness and as the years pass by, the lack of talent on the pitch is growing along with it. There is no individual brilliance now in the team that can mask these other inconsistencies. If Pakistan somehow miraculously manages to win this tournament (highly unlikely) this will perpetuate another cycle of mediocrity where inconsistency will be rewarded handsomely. An absolute thrashing at a global tournament is probably good news for Pakistan cricket as that might force people to introspect.
5) Shahid Afridi's 37 ball 100: While the innings was excellent and ahead of it's time, but it ended up doing more harm than good to Pakistan's cricket. Afridi started to be thought of as some superhuman batsman who can play such a similar knock everytime. That innings made Pakistan celebrate mediocrity. I remember even in this forum 15-20 years ago there used to be many threads about Shahid Afridi everyday. That one innings gave him a free ride in Pakistan team for years but now with T20 cricket getting common, many such players are able to play these type of innings even in ODIs

Afridi was mainly a leg spinning AR and it took Pakistan many years to realise that his primary role in the team was of a bowler who could just smash a 20 ball 50 if it was his day. Most of the times Afridi failed with the bat but still got celebrated as a superhuman batsman due to the 20 ball 50 he hit in one of the matches while failing in other 10
 
The 1992 World Cup victory didn't harm anyone; it seems you have a strong bias against Imran Khan. This post is quite absurd. Our victory was largely due to his exceptional leadership as a captain. Comparatively, Babar Azam is far from reaching his level. Younus Khan was the second best captain after Imran Khan, but some players formed a group against him
 
I drive to Montreal from Toronto - get a speedy start to avoid GTA traffic, then just take the foot off the gas so that I can gossip around with family, finally for last few KMs again speeding to reach the destination in time!!!

Great decision to do that. Not worth speeding outside the GTA especially that route, too many po-po


My confusion is with PAK - why!!!! 4th/5th largest population in world, extreme fan following, cricket being the only sport’s remaining where the national flag can be seen in global stage, a century long cricket culture, genetically/physically not challenged to carry on the legacy, significantly better infrastructure compared to other sports in the country and incomparable financial capacity for the board, compared to most other national institutions…… still why

We have the talent in every field but no hunger to do better as a nation. Take this WC as an example, no one took it seriously. From the players to the PCB and even the media/fans who didn't ask the right questions. There was nothing wrong with this batch of players and in my opinion barring two to three changes the rest are the best we have.

It's a WC year and the whole year you had players doing their own thing and being occupied with extra curricular non cricketing activities. Three guys getting married and enjoying festivities and honeymoons. Main players enjoying vacations in Toronto under the pretext of the GT20 and playing numerous other T20 leagues, going for Hajj and Umrahs, going to Harvard for God knows what. I mean if they wanted Babar to study, why didn't they put him through captaincy classes instead. Total non-serious approach even though every one knew the importance of the occasion. Really disappointing loss this.
 
How about ignoring all of the above and acknowledging that PCB has tried to sabotage this event so much that they paid no attention on their own teams performance and state of being. They were whinging before they arrived. They were whinging even more by creating issues out of the thin air in their attempt to embarrass the host nation which actually resulted in their own journey going off track.

This World Cup, the focus clearly has been more about making a statement in Bharat.
 
Good thoughts.

But I dont agree that winning the World Cups or tournaments does any harm.

If Pakistan win 6 on the trot from here on now to lift the World Cup, they will deserve it.

And no Tom, Dick and Harry can make a post saying it was a fluke or luck or Zeus or Uranus which caused it to happen.
 
How about ignoring all of the above and acknowledging that PCB has tried to sabotage this event so much that they paid no attention on their own teams performance and state of being. They were whinging before they arrived. They were whinging even more by creating issues out of the thin air in their attempt to embarrass the host nation which actually resulted in their own journey going off track.

This World Cup, the focus clearly has been more about making a statement in Bharat.
True! The PCB and Pakistani fans were more into sabotaging and trying to make this World Cup a failure by creating nonsensical issues out of thin air. They were hardly into their team and it's performance.
 
We are definitely in dire straits but YouTube highlights of those events mentioned in OP are the only things that keep me going some days ..so I can never blame them.

We need to change our expectations with regards to our cricketing results and our homeland in general. Things are gonna get worse before they get better.

First and foremost we have to accept we will go through a drought in ICC tourneys next decade. Best is to just enjoy the few good times we may have and stop being hard on ourselves. And most importantly no need to cope by using excuses and conspiracies.

One thing I guarantee we will never get the results we desire through any solution recommended here as we dont have a strong foundation for sport fitness mental strength in the country.
 
Look all I'll say is for decades our cricketers generally came from middle class and university/college educated backgrounds. They were urbane, self-confident and mixed readily around the world with other international players.

It coincided with our golden era from about the mid 70s (note - I haven't been watching cricket as long as that !) to early 90s. Since then our team primarily consists of players from small towns and villages.

I've nothing against that. However those players are typically more conservative, less likely to possess formal education, more readily accepting of superstition and mythology over process and planning, and find it harder to mix socially with people from other cultures.

That's one reason why our players have such inferiority complexes against Australia and India.

That's not an argument for 11 Shan Masoods or to stop selecting cricketers from poorer backgrounds. However cricket has become such a technical and analytical sport that the ability to process information and respond to different situations is critical (especially in fast paced white ball cricket), and education (not seminaries) teaches you that.

I completely agree.

Pakistan certainly needs to diversify its talent pool. The players we see today all come from a very similar background. Nearly all of them struggle to handle this new found fame and fortune when they have their first taste of success in the side. Classic case is Hasan Ali. After the 2017 CT, he's done nothing because he's still living off that tournament. The fame and success had simply got to this head.

The lack of aptitude is certainly problematic when our players think merely relying on prayers is going to get them through. To make matters worse is when they've been told "Quadrat Ka Nizam". You need to understand the importance of working hard, continuous improvement and the methodology that you will adopt against every opponent you come up against. You need to be in environment where players can accept being challenged when it comes to their thought process, decision making and overall approach in preparation for matches. When you don't come from an educated background, you don't appreciate the importance of this. Without education, critical thinking and thinking pragmatically is very much an alien concept.

When I started watching players in 2000, they had swag and personality. As a result, they could impose themselves against their opponents. PCB thinks they can market their cricket by simply producing good players like Babar and Shaheen. You need a lot more than that. The culture of Pakistan cricket has also been messed up when Inzi allowed the Tableeghi to infilitrate the dressing room.

What you ideally want is someone with the talent of Babar and Shaheen combined with the work ethic and professionalism of Shan Masood. But we don't have a single player who meets this criteria so what we've ended up with is bunch of timid kittens.
 
Imran Khan deciding to meddle in the cricket affairs of the country. This guy as PM decided to reduce the domestic teams to 6 and also decided to remove Azhar Ali as captain and replace him with Babar.

When he made Babar captain, Babar ended up losing all three ICC events he would captain Pakistan in. World T20 2021, 2022 and now the World Cup 2023.

Also, his decision to reduce the domestic team to 6 is the reason why we dont have a spinner today. 6 domestic teams meant that teams would carry 1 spinner each which were usuaully the psl stars. Pakistan today has no spinner cause of the stupid domestic structure we had in place.
Whilst I agree that there are many strange practices of the board this point is not entirely accurate and probably deserves its own thread.

The idea of 6 teams is to localise or regionalise cricket. So any coaching and any improvements in competition start from the district to the village/town level. Players and coaches operate at local level first to develop talent rather than trying to leapfrog into the national set up.

The idea has merit but there is one fundamental flaw. Domestic cricket is awash with mediocrity where people just want to collect a salary and go home. This goes for coaches and former cricketers. Nevertheless it would require a long long time to come to fruition not just the two years it got. Such wholesale changes were bound to have teething issues.
 
When writing, I never had this thought that I had to explain point 1.

Literally, the first sentence says in point 1, "The win itself wasn't problematic". I'm not criticizing the World Cup win. Of course I'm not. I'm criticizing the manner of the victory and what it symbolized going forward. Cornered tigers is a good one-off story. You should not base your entire cricket on cornered tigers. Why do you even have to get to the situation where you're cornered? This Excel formula of "If else then" scenario is cancer. It breeds mediocrity.
 
5) Shahid Afridi's 37 ball 100: Shahid

5) Shahid Afridi's 37 ball 100: While the innings was excellent and ahead of it's time, but it ended up doing more harm than good to Pakistan's cricket. Afridi started to be thought of as some superhuman batsman who can play such a similar knock everytime. That innings made Pakistan celebrate mediocrity. I remember even in this forum 15-20 years ago there used to be many threads about Shahid Afridi everyday. That one innings gave him a free ride in Pakistan team for years but now with T20 cricket getting common, many such players are able to play these type of innings even in ODIs

Afridi was mainly a leg spinning AR and it took Pakistan many years to realise that his primary role in the team was of a bowler who could just smash a 20 ball 50 if it was his day. Most of the times Afridi failed with the bat but still got celebrated as a superhuman batsman due to the 20 ball 50 he hit in one of the matches while failing in other 10
I'm angry at myself for missing out this gem. Afridi wouldn't have lasted beyond the millennium if he was in any professional team. People started idolizing Afridi instead of Miandad when it came to batting. Ruined the entire batting culture in the country.
 
True! The PCB and Pakistani fans were more into sabotaging and trying to make this World Cup a failure by creating nonsensical issues out of thin air. They were hardly into their team and it's performance.
Like what? I think this is a meaningless accusation
 
Unbelievable.

Pakistan is desperate for a batsman that can score 100 of 37 balls right now, yet only in Pakistan the same fans would call such an innings harmful to Pakistan cricket.

As for Afridi, he went further with his bowling too.
 
The 2017 CT was a phenomenal win but as a poster called it before, it was a fluke. However the fluke plastered many cracks out of sight. However behind the plaster the cracks widened and now suddnely all of them have come out in this World cup.

Why was it a fluke? See the 10 year ODI H2H with India since 2013. Look at margins of defeat and number of defeats against India. These clearly indicated a gap which was widening every year in terms of quality of the teams ( fitness, approach to scoring, bowling etc). However because of that one win, there no attention paid to the obvious and all was assumed to be well and nothing was needed to be fixed approach was taken

India Pakistan -ODI results last CT 2013 ( one decade)(not much games since both play only in ICC events and not bilaterally)

CT 2013 - India won by 8 wkts
Asia cup 2014 - India lost by just 1 wkt as Afridi just about managed to get 2sixes in last over)
2015 WC Adelaide : India won by 76 runs
2017 CT league game : India won by 124 runs
2017 CT final : India lost by 180 runs (An anomaly if you look at results below and above)
2018 Asia cup (Dubai) : India won by 8 wkts (in 40th over)
2018 Asia cup (Dubai) : India won by 9 wkts ( in 40th over)
2019 WC (Manchester) : India won by 89 runs ( game result was obvious by 25th over)
2023 Asia Cup( SL) : Rain ..... no result
2023 Asia Cup( SL) : India won by 228 runs (Pakistan scored 128)
WC 2023 = India won by 7 wkts in 31 overs (Pakistan scored 192)

The only close game has been Asia cup 2014. The only Anomaly has been 2017 CT final, where a team lost against the normal trend of results before and after that game.
No wonder it is called a fluke but hey credit to PCT they did play well on that 1 rare occasion.
 
The issue was the batting my guy. We collapsed 2 times this tournament and put a very low total in the 3rd loss.
Batting issues are there but I think bowling was the main culpit against Australia and Afganistan. Any team will fail to chase 367 target 8 out of 10 times and 289 was not a low score on that pitch against the batting lineup of Afganistan. Pakistan is playing with just 1 wicket taking bowler in this tournament and he is also not looking in full flow ever since his injury.
 
Bowling is rubbish big time and that includes shaheen .

Rauf is only good for t20s

And hasan ali has been shot for a number of years and needs to retire

The spinners the less said the better.

The top order in particular the openers are just self preserving stat padders not match winners every innings for them is playing for their own survival in the team
 
People might not agree but I genuinely believe there have been certain events that have actually caused damage to Pakistan cricket.

1) World Cup 1992 win: The win itself wasn't problematic. The manner of the victory, though, has caused immense damage. The whole cornered tigers story has infused a level of mediocrity and a willingness to not improve the culture of Pakistani cricket. Suddenly, winning from a position of complete despair became somewhat of a mystical triumph. Articles started appearing on how Pakistan roars back from nowhere. "Haal" is a term coined by journalists that is somehow celebrated. One day the team will beat peak Australia, the other day shell a complete home series to Zimbabwe. And all of this was beautifully wrapped up in a present called "inconsistency" which was to be believed as something extraordinary. It's been nearly 32 years since this World Cup win, yet every tournament is compared to World Cup 1992.

2) Champions Trophy 2017 win: Again, the same situation repeats itself. On the brink of elimination and somehow manages to win the tournament against all odds. Hailed as a revelation. Proceeds to get whitewashed by NZ 5-0 in ODIs straight after. No introspection because we've just won the Champions Trophy. If the effects of 1992 were slightly wearing thin, 2017 reinforced everything that Pakistan should have been vying to get away with. Back to square on with the "underdogs winning against all odds" mentality. What's worse was it gave Mickey Arthur a free reign as he was thought of as a super coach. What does he do next? Play 3 fast bowlers in UAE and get whitewashed. Gets another opportunity to coach Pakistan because he won the 2017 Champions Trophy

3) Wahab Riaz's spell to Watson: Only Pakistan could hype up a spell that did nothing for Pakistan. Lost the match comfortably. But what it did was allow Wahab Riaz to play unconditionally for the next 6-7 years. Pakistani fans lapped up all of that spell and Brian Lara's "I'll pay Wahab's fine" comment to end up with zero output from Wahab over the next half-a-decade.

4) Nawaz's cameo against India in Asia Cup 2022: That innings where he came in and smashed 40 odd to allow the team to chase 180+ against India was just debilitating for Pakistan. It may have meant that Pakistan won that match but it ensured Nawaz got a run in the team for the next 1 year without any accountability despite him choking time and time again in crunch situations (most notably World Cup match against India). Had he not played that innings, Pakistan might have tried other spinners and possibly found 1 good-ish spinner. Nawaz's batting was always non-existent but that 1 fluke innings has cost Pakistan dearly and still continues to cost them.

Pakistan's problem has always been lack of game-awareness and as the years pass by, the lack of talent on the pitch is growing along with it. There is no individual brilliance now in the team that can mask these other inconsistencies. If Pakistan somehow miraculously manages to win this tournament (highly unlikely) this will perpetuate another cycle of mediocrity where inconsistency will be rewarded handsomely. An absolute thrashing at a global tournament is probably good news for Pakistan cricket as that might force people to introspect.
I still wonder about that Wahab's spell. Just some good deliveries which went to keeper at shoulder hight. No chances made for any lbws, caught behind or bowled, infact some dollies were dropped on boundary line. Overall just an average spell which should not have been overhyped like this by fans. And even at the end I don't think wahab had any stats worth mentioning in that match.
 
Wasim Jnr, another event that will cost Pakistan dearly.

A bang average bowler who just had a couple of decent games but will be picked in the team forever.

Pakistan not only has a skill problem, they have a delusion problem too.
 
The main issue is we believe our own. Hype too much and we have well and truly been humbled
 
I still wonder about that Wahab's spell. Just some good deliveries which went to keeper at shoulder hight. No chances made for any lbws, caught behind or bowled, infact some dollies were dropped on boundary line. Overall just an average spell which should not have been overhyped like this by fans. And even at the end I don't think wahab had any stats worth mentioning in that match.
Wrong Wahab delivered when it mattered unlike our current crop of bowlers who are bottlers.

Wahab performed at biggest stage of all every time he played
 
Wrong Wahab delivered when it mattered unlike our current crop of bowlers who are bottlers.

Wahab performed at biggest stage of all every time he played
He was mediocre, only looked good when the ball reversing a bit.
 
Even winning CT17 turned out to be detrimental to us? Most nations build on success.
 
Even winning CT17 turned out to be detrimental to us? Most nations build on success.
You know why tournament success becomes detrimental to us in the long run? It's because success breeds complacency. And it is most magnified in the case of Pakistan. Pakistani players become a victim of their own success because they don't respect discipline. They are not disciplined enough to do the same boring thing over and over again, day after day.

In their off time, Pakistani players will be usually seen eating niharis, biryanis, mithais with the excuse that this is their off time. It's easy to get to the pinnacle of the sport. It's very hard to sustain yourself there. And without discipline, it becomes impossible. Misbah on the World Cup talk show said a very important thing that fitness tests are not there to make you fit. Fitness tests are there to ensure that you are already fit enough so that the fitness tests are a piece of cake to you. People need to reflect and understand this.

I've often seen players who have succeeded for a couple of years when they have come onto the international scene due to their novelty and faded thereafter (Hasan Ali, Nasir Jamshed are prime examples). It's because success brought complacency as it led them to a sense of invulnerability and a belief that the recipe for past success will guarantee future success. This mindset is what is hindering innovation and growth, as they become resistant to change believing they have already found the optimal way to achieve their goals.

Imagine if Pakistan somehow miraculously found its way into the semi finals and then gone on to win the whole tournament, do you think that would have benefitted Pakistan? It would have created a fresh breed of believers who would've put more trust in "Qudrat ka Nizam" rather than in the fruits of hard work and discipline.

Pakistan society in general needs a cultural reset where first of all, hard work is rewarded. Secondly, corruption and shortcuts are not only frowned upon but actually stopped. Unfortunately, we have incentivized corruption and shortcuts in this country. Thirdly, we clearly have an external locus of control. We do not own failures. If we fail, we automatically blame other factors for it. We need to develop an internal locus of control where we start realizing that if we fail, it will be mostly due to our own doing.

Cricket is not a tough sport at all. Learning batting and bowling is easy. What is difficult is the will to slog it out day after day on the training ground and in your ordinary routine life. Cristiano Ronaldo didn't become the player that he is because he had godly footballing skills. He became what he is on the back of extreme training off the field in terms of fitness, diet and training.

Pakistan cricketers deserve all the credit for reaching the top levels in international cricket despite the system at home being rigged against them. But they also deserve a lot of criticism for resting on their laurels and believing in their own hype and past successes. If they want to continuously succeed, they must embrace discipline otherwise scattered tournament victories will always turn out to be false dawns.
 
Cricket is not a tough sport at all. Learning batting and bowling is easy. What is difficult is the will to slog it out day after day on the training ground and in your ordinary routine life. Cristiano Ronaldo didn't become the player that he is because he had godly footballing skills. He became what he is on the back of extreme training off the field in terms of fitness, diet and training.
Simply not true. If success was all down to training, fitness, and diet, then everyone would be a legend.

Look at the past cricketers of the 70s, 80s, and 90s - you are telling me these folk were training day in day out yet ended up being greats?

Shane Warne was a full on smoker and drinker, he ended up being one of the best cricketers in history.

Ronaldo, look up his early year interviews, he believed he was the best player in the world (during his first stint at Man U) and long before his fitness regime.

Point being, success is a mindset, not an exercise.
 
Simply not true. If success was all down to training, fitness, and diet, then everyone would be a legend.

Look at the past cricketers of the 70s, 80s, and 90s - you are telling me these folk were training day in day out yet ended up being greats?

Shane Warne was a full on smoker and drinker, he ended up being one of the best cricketers in history.

Ronaldo, look up his early year interviews, he believed he was the best player in the world (during his first stint at Man U) and long before his fitness regime.

Point being, success is a mindset, not an exercise.
The cricket till the 90s was inherently based on skill. Fitness played a part but realtively small. That's why you saw guys like Gooch, Boon, Ranatunga, with pot bellies still being successful. None of those players would be able to make it to the domestic team let alone at the international level.

Modern day sports (not just cricket) have become more data-analytical and scientific. A cricketer with loads of skill but zero commitment to diet/fitness/exercise will 100% lose out to a cricketer with Kohli-level fitness levels but with average skills.

If success was all down to training, fitness, and diet, then everyone would be a legend.
That's the whole point. Not everyone has that commitment to work their socks off with regards to training, fitness and diet. If you don't trust me, do a simple test for yourself in your daily life. What is the one thing you love to eat/drink and do it everyday? Tea? Just drop drinking tea for 1 month. And see how committed you are.
 
I think fans lose reality more than the players themselves. Any time Pakistan strings together a series of mediocre performances fans double down on their claim of unpredictable nature of Pakistan side with statements like "We are a tournament team" "That is how we roll" "We are cornered tigers" . People don't take time to analyze why they managed to stage a come back. What clicked for them. Do they have the same potency now to turn it around? This is why fans end up getting disappointed more often than not.
 
Simply not true. If success was all down to training, fitness, and diet, then everyone would be a legend.

Look at the past cricketers of the 70s, 80s, and 90s - you are telling me these folk were training day in day out yet ended up being greats?

Shane Warne was a full on smoker and drinker, he ended up being one of the best cricketers in history.

Ronaldo, look up his early year interviews, he believed he was the best player in the world (during his first stint at Man U) and long before his fitness regime.

Point being, success is a mindset, not an exercise.



There is no alternative universe where someone like Khushdil becomes as good as Babar Rizwan by simply believing that he is that good.

Success is simply a journey and not a destination.

It involves continous growth.

This could be through training, diet, hard work, improving learned skills, trying to find new skills that work better than old skills, confidence, mental training etc.

It takes a lot of time and thats why reaching the pinnacle of anything is not easy

Shane Warne smoked and drank but the effort he put into his bowling was more than he drank and smoked.

He did not wake up one day with a different mindset and started bowling Australia to victory.

Similarly, Ronaldo trains harder than anyone on the pitch to perfect his skills and talent.

Both are parroted to get the end result of success because of confirmation bias.

A succeeded because he was simply more talented than B. Or C succeded because his mindset was different to D.
 
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You can wallow my claims are ridiculous but falsification does have this effect on your lack of understanding.

I say otherwise, it is the mindset, the drive, and the ambition of an individual that make a player great and there is ample proof of this long before data analytics and diet regimes etc.

Fitness and diet only help to prolong a career.
 
The cricket till the 90s was inherently based on skill. Fitness played a part but realtively small. That's why you saw guys like Gooch, Boon, Ranatunga, with pot bellies still being successful. None of those players would be able to make it to the domestic team let alone at the international level.

Modern day sports (not just cricket) have become more data-analytical and scientific. A cricketer with loads of skill but zero commitment to diet/fitness/exercise will 100% lose out to a cricketer with Kohli-level fitness levels but with average skills.


That's the whole point. Not everyone has that commitment to work their socks off with regards to training, fitness and diet. If you don't trust me, do a simple test for yourself in your daily life. What is the one thing you love to eat/drink and do it everyday? Tea? Just drop drinking tea for 1 month. And see how committed you are.
Does not change the fact that great players existed long before data analytics of today. Even today there are great players who fall below or exceed BMI indexes.

Diet, training, fitness does not make a player aggressive for example, or turn a dud into a leader, or create human spirit/grit (Aussies of 90s/00) - they only prolong a career. That’s it.

Again, mentality is what drives ambition, greatness, character, and yes, even hard training/regimes.
 
Naseem Shah’s absence, poor selection (Abrar and Amir should have been picked) and lack of intent has hurt Pakistan:

Current bowling lacks penetration in the middle overs (no specialist spinners)

Apart from Fakhar, only Rizwan and Abdullah try to bat positively. Iftikhar needs to understand that 30s and 40s are just not good enough in ODIs.

The rest including Babar (SR of 82 in this cup which is less than his career SR of 89) bat in the same old fashioned way putting extra pressure on the batters to follow
 
Playing with minnow, and A, B and C teams. It has destroyed the level of cricket we had in past
 
In my view the fragile management of the PCB has done the damage for Pakistan as they hesitate to make tough decisions due to uncertainty about their own positions in the board.
 
Go back to uae honestly. That way you can play a string sides and get accustomed to slow pitches.

These flat pindi pitches ain't helping anyone
 
Make no mistake about it. Nawaz's fluke batting run in this T20 series is going to cost Pakistan again. The guy needs to be benched for good but he will remain in the team on the back of some fluke sixes. It's excruciating watching him bowl gun barrel straight deliveries after deliveries. Lost Pakistan the World T20 game against India and a complete joke of a bowling performance throughout the ODI world Cup. Does Pakistan seriously believe that he will help Pakistan in the upcoming T20 World Cup?
 
Make no mistake about it. Nawaz's fluke batting run in this T20 series is going to cost Pakistan again. The guy needs to be benched for good but he will remain in the team on the back of some fluke sixes. It's excruciating watching him bowl gun barrel straight deliveries after deliveries. Lost Pakistan the World T20 game against India and a complete joke of a bowling performance throughout the ODI world Cup. Does Pakistan seriously believe that he will help Pakistan in the upcoming T20 World Cup?
Yeah blame Nawaz but not Rizwan for turning up in a dead rubber.

Typical
 
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