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French President Macron says Islam ‘in crisis’, prompting backlash from Muslims

Majority of the muslims living in western countries have failed to assimilate.

Living in European countries**

You don’t see North American muslims involved in these things as much. And they generally are better educated than the general population and have similar or higher per capita household income too
 
How do “white people” act?

I see the rabbit hole and I am coming in :)) (but seriously please don't make it one...)

I have absolutely no problem with how white people act (my rule to each their own) but its a stark contrast to middle class/ lower class Pakistani values

drinking, premarital sex and other normal things among western societies that in Pakistani societies are considered a social ill

This is normal among majority of north American Muslim youth regardless of gender know having been a part of that group its hypocritical to say what they are doing is wrong so I am not saying they're wrong just saying that they're more "assimilated" in terms of their social values than their European counterparts and just said it they're white (basically leg-pulling you can pull the legs of your own kind c'mon :ua)

but I do have a problem with the "assimilation" part I feel like they're forcing the social values of western civilization down on people who clearly don't want to be assimilated so I definitely feel a bit uneasy about the word "assimilation"
 
Depends what you mean by assimilate.

I assume he means abandon their parents culture and religion completley and perhaps tell the women in the family not to cover their heads but head to the nudist beach. This is extremist mentality of secular activists.
 
Interesting how “assimilation” is viewed by some as not only a positive experience, but an essential one.

What is assimilation really? And is it actually necessary? Why can’t people just be themselves and be proud of it?

I would view assimilation almost as a modern colonial process, wherein more recent arrivals to a nation adopt their mindsets and behaviours to “fit in”, to not upset the apple cart, to appease the ‘ruling’ majority and such.

Is that really a positive process? Should it be strived towards? I’m not so sure!!
 
Interesting how “assimilation” is viewed by some as not only a positive experience, but an essential one.

What is assimilation really? And is it actually necessary? Why can’t people just be themselves and be proud of it?

I would view assimilation almost as a modern colonial process, wherein more recent arrivals to a nation adopt their mindsets and behaviours to “fit in”, to not upset the apple cart, to appease the ‘ruling’ majority and such.

Is that really a positive process? Should it be strived towards? I’m not so sure!!

Well.... let’s say I go to live in Spain.

Assimilation to me would mean learning Spanish and partaking in the local culture, instead of staying in an expat ghetto with a sense of simultaneous superiority and grievance that some British expats seem to foster.

Or, say, The Gambia. I would learn a bit of Mandingo and play in a local band, exploring polyrhythms, and volunteer at a local school.
 
It seems to me that the western democracy itself is in crisis and unable to hold on to its ideals in face of a challenge from a different way of thinking. It is actually becoming what it opposes which just exposes the inherent contradictions of the system.
 
Well.... let’s say I go to live in Spain.

Assimilation to me would mean learning Spanish and partaking in the local culture, instead of staying in an expat ghetto with a sense of simultaneous superiority and grievance that some British expats seem to foster.

Or, say, The Gambia. I would learn a bit of Mandingo and play in a local band, exploring polyrhythms, and volunteer at a local school.

Why is it necessary though? If you colonised Africa and the middle east and drained out their resources therefore hampering their development, if you led a war on Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan etc and installed puppet regimes and became neo-colonists thereby forcing the people of those nations to seek refuge in livable countries like yours, then what right do you have to ask them to assimilate when they come to your country and want to maintain their distinct identity?
 
It seems to me that the western democracy itself is in crisis and unable to hold on to its ideals in face of a challenge from a different way of thinking. It is actually becoming what it opposes which just exposes the inherent contradictions of the system.

Or may be western democracies actually want keep their ideals and ideas preserved from extremism. Hence the push back.
 
Or may be western democracies actually want keep their ideals and ideas preserved from extremism. Hence the push back.

And hence they're becoming what they claim to oppose. Everybody wants to preserve their ideals be it the western democracies or anyone else.
 
And hence they're becoming what they claim to oppose. Everybody wants to preserve their ideals be it the western democracies or anyone else.

No. They are only preserving their ideals. Ideals that make their country and society.
 
No. They are only preserving their ideals. Ideals that make their country and society.

they don't have fixed ideals. Their ideals are subjective. they change all the time. Their core ideal is maintaining their wealth. End of . If fascism allows them to do it they will become fascists.
 
It seems to me that the western democracy itself is in crisis and unable to hold on to its ideals in face of a challenge from a different way of thinking. It is actually becoming what it opposes which just exposes the inherent contradictions of the system.

Like I have said they have no real ideals other than making money and maintaining power.
 
Why is it necessary though? If you colonised Africa and the middle east and drained out their resources therefore hampering their development, if you led a war on Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan etc and installed puppet regimes and became neo-colonists thereby forcing the people of those nations to seek refuge in livable countries like yours, then what right do you have to ask them to assimilate when they come to your country and want to maintain their distinct identity?

I didn’t do any of those things.

My view is quite liberal - just learn the language, pay tax, respect the law, vote.

I would do a bit more were I an expat, to become a part of the local culture rather than sit aloof from it like many Britons abroad.
 
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I didn’t do any of those things.

My view is quite liberal - just learn the language, pay tax, respect the law, vote.

I would do a bit more were I an expat, to become a part of the local culture rather than sit aloof from it like many Britons abroad.

but you benefit from all of it and you voted for the people who did it. So to an extent you should at the least try to make amends through some way rather than saying "nothing to do with me gov. I wasn't born then!"

The Jewish people have it the right way. they make sure europe never forgets what it did to them. We should learn from them.
 
I didn’t do any of those things.

My view is quite liberal - just learn the language, pay tax, respect the law, vote.

I would do a bit more were I an expat, to become a part of the local culture rather than sit aloof from it like many Britons abroad.

You are a right winger liberal, you believes everyone must follow the law and if they don't like the law, they can either change it (if majority), or live with it (if minority).
 
You are a right winger liberal, you believes everyone must follow the law and if they don't like the law, they can either change it (if majority), or live with it (if minority).

And hurl abuse if no one agrees with liberals.

Liberalism means a lot more in the UK; for one, as a liberal if you do not accept any democratic result, unless you agree with it, it doesn't count.

Liberals have destroyed democracy, and are slowly destroying society - it's about time liberals assimilated in the UK.
 
You are a right winger liberal, you believes everyone must follow the law and if they don't like the law, they can either change it (if majority), or live with it (if minority).

Well, liberalism to me refers to personal freedom, the opposite of centralised authoritarian government, but on the law I agree with you.

Economically I guess I am bang in the centre, believing in nationalisation of some sectors such as water, health and railways, and privatisation of others such as power with the proviso that the service users are stakeholders through mutuals and cooperatives. The Political Compass puts me left of centre which doesn’t feel quite right.
 
but you benefit from all of it and you voted for the people who did it. So to an extent you should at the least try to make amends through some way rather than saying "nothing to do with me gov. I wasn't born then!"

.

I am more that happy for UK to take her fair share of refugees. I am trying to get a regressive MP replaced by a progressive. Dunno how else I can “make amends” other than go to certain bombed countries and help in reconstruction, but I am not a clinician or engineer so my skills would not be very useful.
 
I am more that happy for UK to take her fair share of refugees. I am trying to get a regressive MP replaced by a progressive. Dunno how else I can “make amends” other than go to certain bombed countries and help in reconstruction, but I am not a clinician or engineer so my skills would not be very useful.

well then that is a good thing. You have more of a responsibility than us "minorities" to change attitudes in the UK.
 
Hey man, remember I am half-Irish and married to a POC. I’ve got skin in this game.

Indeed thats probably why your one of only a very few number of white britons on this forum. Ive never doubted that. remember you cant really do tone properly on the internet. Perhaps another thread to discuss your experinces married to a person of colour you would be useful for further dicsussion and to enlighten some of our very young pp participants.
 
I love how the people on here defending Muslims in the west not assimilating and saying how they shouldn't need to and should be allowed to live how they want to are the same that defend the banning of games, apps and ads in Pakistan.

Hypocritical much? On one side they want Muslims in the west to be able to live how they live in Pakistan and on the other side they want everything banned in Pakistan so people who want to enjoy their freedom aren't able to do so.
 
Living in European countries**

You don’t see North American muslims involved in these things as much. And they generally are better educated than the general population and have similar or higher per capita household income too

Most second generation immigrants assimilate in America almost from all cultures, wonder if its because of the schooling or having large area or maybe because its a land of immigrants..

Canada does have some immigrant ghettos though esp GTA
 
Interesting how “assimilation” is viewed by some as not only a positive experience, but an essential one.

What is assimilation really? And is it actually necessary? Why can’t people just be themselves and be proud of it?

I would view assimilation almost as a modern colonial process, wherein more recent arrivals to a nation adopt their mindsets and behaviours to “fit in”, to not upset the apple cart, to appease the ‘ruling’ majority and such.

Is that really a positive process? Should it be strived towards? I’m not so sure!!

The country’s culture has to assimilate as well meaning accepting incoming cultures ,their food, their practices... Americans seem more tuned due to many Liberal cities and maybe “hipsters”.

Even in Texas which gets such a bad name in media is so easy to assimilate and have a talk or be friends- most Americans are already aware regarding Indian culture.. they are sensitive to vegetarian/ or non alcoholic nature of Muslims.

Also mayve Europe is so small and not having so many cities where one could move it the country’s culture hasn’t assimilated to include others..
 
Obviously majority Muslims as a collective unit are in a crisis.

At national/diplomatic level there are hardly any meaningful brotherly ties between majority Muslim countries. Those countries where religion is practiced by masses are far from stable economy, bar exception of a few so they aren't involved in global discussions or have any meaningful decision-making power. Young generation Muslims are confused between culture, lifestyle and religion and are ending up falling in the wrong, whichever side they skew or get brainwashed into.

There's only so much you can expect from the West to cater to Muslim needs. There has to be a topping point. The West rules the mainstream media and they are free to report what they want, and make any headlines about Muslims. If Muslims need to counter that, then we have to step up and become a force to reckon with, rather than continue seeking validation from others.
 
I love how the people on here defending Muslims in the west not assimilating and saying how they shouldn't need to and should be allowed to live how they want to are the same that defend the banning of games, apps and ads in Pakistan.

Hypocritical much? On one side they want Muslims in the west to be able to live how they live in Pakistan and on the other side they want everything banned in Pakistan so people who want to enjoy their freedom aren't able to do so.

Muslims living in the west have no say in what goes on in Pakistan, don't really see what they ban or don't ban over there has got to do with us.
 
Obviously majority Muslims as a collective unit are in a crisis.

At national/diplomatic level there are hardly any meaningful brotherly ties between majority Muslim countries. Those countries where religion is practiced by masses are far from stable economy, bar exception of a few so they aren't involved in global discussions or have any meaningful decision-making power. Young generation Muslims are confused between culture, lifestyle and religion and are ending up falling in the wrong, whichever side they skew or get brainwashed into.

You have to look at the condition of the Muslim world in its proper context. 70 to 80 years ago the Muslim world didn't exist as an entity. this is simply a fact. Now we have economies in the G20 and large young populations in generally growing economies. Aspirations are rising. Militarily we are much stronger than 80 years ago. yes there are problems but even 50 years ago nobody used to talk about teh Muslim Ummah. now we hear it all over. Things are changing.

There's only so much you can expect from the West to cater to Muslim needs. There has to be a topping point. The West rules the mainstream media and they are free to report what they want, and make any headlines about Muslims. If Muslims need to counter that, then we have to step up and become a force to reckon with, rather than continue seeking validation from others.

I agree with what you are saying to an extent and we need to do more and this can only come if we start to fight in the right way. We need organisations like the black population managed to create in the US. We need good leadership and youngsters to begin to create grassroots orgs which they are doing now. e.g. mend, the ramadhan tent project etc..we also need to work more closely with orgs like the Runnymede trust etc. Lots to do but Muslims are rising and their rise is inevitable.
 
I agree with what you are saying to an extent and we need to do more and this can only come if we start to fight in the right way. We need organisations like the black population managed to create in the US. We need good leadership and youngsters to begin to create grassroots orgs which they are doing now. e.g. mend, the ramadhan tent project etc..we also need to work more closely with orgs like the Runnymede trust etc. Lots to do but Muslims are rising and their rise is inevitable.

Why not just be as successful and influential as you can be - why the need fight? I also don’t see what is inevitable about any sort of rising. To truly progress, all walks of life need to move forward - not just the military.
 
I didn’t do any of those things.

My view is quite liberal - just learn the language, pay tax, respect the law, vote.

I would do a bit more were I an expat, to become a part of the local culture rather than sit aloof from it like many Britons abroad.

If that's what people want from assimilation than no problem and even in Pakistani communities if people are not doing that than its looked down upon (because you cant climb economic ladders without learning the language, paying taxes, getting educated)

But my problem/fear with assimilation is that people advocating for assimilation are deep down looking forwards to a Chinese style of forced assimilation not as harsh as China of course but definitely "forcing" people (my suspicion is especially towards France)

If you really want people to assimilate their are so many things you can do without forcing anyone

like providing subsidized loans to get mortgages in white neighborhoods
busing system to integrate the school districts with kids from all backgrounds
Scholarships/quota to get them involved in higher education (increased income after education leads to moving to better neighborhoods(assimilation), role model for their families who want to be just like them (10 more kids who get assimilated), in desi family structure families support each other so maybe he/she can help move their families to these nicer neighborhoods.)

What you don't want is forced assimilation cause than people react because they feel threatened and its a vicious cycle

subtle assimilation is they way forward and leads to greater bang for your buck
 
UK Muslims do need to take a leaf out of their US counterparts when it comes to assimilating with the west.

There's a reason why US Muslims are more prosperous and educated compared to the average American.

Whereas UK Muslims are less prosperous and educated compared to the average brit.

UK Muslims are also overrepresented when it comes to crime and prison population.
 
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Indeed thats probably why your one of only a very few number of white britons on this forum. Ive never doubted that. remember you cant really do tone properly on the internet. Perhaps another thread to discuss your experinces married to a person of colour you would be useful for further dicsussion and to enlighten some of our very young pp participants.

It’s true that we lose nearly all communication nuance in text-only. I may take up your suggestion. You’re one of the senior posters I look to for insight.
 
I think all parties that come to a host country should adopt to the host country values ( not change religion). When ever the topic of assimilation comes up people bring up of you mean drink beer and eat pork? I have been in the states for almost 30 years. I grew up here. I was never forced to drink when i did not want to or eat pork. I have a friend who is vegan ( for over 25 years) and does not drink alcohol or soda. That was not a barrier for him to assimilate. If you ask what assimilation to me is. In the mid west where i grew up there is an old saying that " we all have to sit on the same dinning table" . If you move here or any where for that matter and been here 20-30 years and have no native friends. Thats a bit odd. In general US pakistanis have done better than UK pakistani. Pakistanis here are mostly very educated., almost no crime, higher incomes but social integration could be better. I have been to UK multiple times and see it very differently over there. I see/feel resentment among UK born pakistanis. Feel they are living in a parallel society. I know spain very well as i have going there for over 2 decades and my partner is from spain and one of my son was born in spain. Pakistanis have a huge assimilation issue there. As compared to US people, spainish ( friends) always ask me why dont pakistanis want to socialize with us. They find that offensive. Its the duty of the person arriving to a host country to try to assimilate.
 
I assume he means abandon their parents culture and religion completley and perhaps tell the women in the family not to cover their heads but head to the nudist beach. This is extremist mentality of secular activists.
Would you have an issue with some example. White british guy move to pakistan. Abandons his religion for islam, change his attire and habits. Would you consider that abandoning his roots?
 
I think all parties that come to a host country should adopt to the host country values ( not change religion). When ever the topic of assimilation comes up people bring up of you mean drink beer and eat pork? I have been in the states for almost 30 years. I grew up here. I was never forced to drink when i did not want to or eat pork. I have a friend who is vegan ( for over 25 years) and does not drink alcohol or soda. That was not a barrier for him to assimilate. If you ask what assimilation to me is. In the mid west where i grew up there is an old saying that " we all have to sit on the same dinning table" . If you move here or any where for that matter and been here 20-30 years and have no native friends. Thats a bit odd. In general US pakistanis have done better than UK pakistani. Pakistanis here are mostly very educated., almost no crime, higher incomes but social integration could be better. I have been to UK multiple times and see it very differently over there. I see/feel resentment among UK born pakistanis. Feel they are living in a parallel society. I know spain very well as i have going there for over 2 decades and my partner is from spain and one of my son was born in spain. Pakistanis have a huge assimilation issue there. As compared to US people, spainish ( friends) always ask me why dont pakistanis want to socialize with us. They find that offensive. Its the duty of the person arriving to a host country to try to assimilate.

Tbh history of Pakistanis in UK is tragic with violent attacks on Pakistani community common in 60s, 70s (Russel Peters said in his set that in Canada desi's were getting the racism directly from UK where the situation was pretty bad and because of that he faced tons of violent racist attacks in Canada imagine what was happening in UK at the time..)

In that environment and with that kind of history it becomes hard to assimilate (basically kind of like blaming black people for not assimilating) and in US except for 9/11 we never faced that kind of violent racisms so some blame should go to English people too

Cause when you traumatize a group of People than it becomes hard for people to want to integrate because there are trust issues

its like if your father was attacked by a white gang in 70s the whole generation is traumatized and it'll be hard for them to trust and be a part of society that did not "accept" them and they think they still wouldn't accept them

So the old timers would pass down these stories to new comers to try to scare them and keep them in their neighborhoods

I saw the same thing in a small NY town around Buffalo area where some guy years ago faced racism and know everyone is living in a ghetto and whoever comes they tell them to not live with the whites cause they're racist and if you do you're a "coconut" a idiot

So w cannot just blame the immigrants for not assimilating to assimilate gov should actively create programs that help people assimilate
 
Tbh history of Pakistanis in UK is tragic with violent attacks on Pakistani community common in 60s, 70s (Russel Peters said in his set that in Canada desi's were getting the racism directly from UK where the situation was pretty bad and because of that he faced tons of violent racist attacks in Canada imagine what was happening in UK at the time..)

In that environment and with that kind of history it becomes hard to assimilate (basically kind of like blaming black people for not assimilating) and in US except for 9/11 we never faced that kind of violent racisms so some blame should go to English people too

Cause when you traumatize a group of People than it becomes hard for people to want to integrate because there are trust issues

its like if your father was attacked by a white gang in 70s the whole generation is traumatized and it'll be hard for them to trust and be a part of society that did not "accept" them and they think they still wouldn't accept them

So the old timers would pass down these stories to new comers to try to scare them and keep them in their neighborhoods

I saw the same thing in a small NY town around Buffalo area where some guy years ago faced racism and know everyone is living in a ghetto and whoever comes they tell them to not live with the whites cause they're racist and if you do you're a "coconut" a idiot

So w cannot just blame the immigrants for not assimilating to assimilate gov should actively create programs that help people assimilate

Why do you think the Indians have assimilated so well in U.K.?They look jus like us.
 
Why do you think the Indians have assimilated so well in U.K.?They look jus like us.

Education it destroy every prejudice out there at the end of the day you need your doctor regardless of his color

Indians I think were more educated than Pakistanis that's why they assimilated better than Pakistanis

But this response was more towards comparison between Uk, Us Pakistanis

I think we are more privalleged because

A- more educated from back home
B- we never faced the kind of racism british Pakistanis faced (except for 9/11)
 
I love how the people on here defending Muslims in the west not assimilating and saying how they shouldn't need to and should be allowed to live how they want to are the same that defend the banning of games, apps and ads in Pakistan.

Hypocritical much? On one side they want Muslims in the west to be able to live how they live in Pakistan and on the other side they want everything banned in Pakistan so people who want to enjoy their freedom aren't able to do so.

You were the one who had issues with banning of a biscuit but was defending hijab- niqab ban in France.

Person labelling others as hypocrites is usually a one himself.
 
You were the one who had issues with banning of a biscuit but was defending hijab- niqab ban in France.

Person labelling others as hypocrites is usually a one himself.

This is a bit of a stupid comparison if I'm being honest. I also support gun control similar to how I support banning of the niqab because both can be misused by people. How the hell does one misuse a biscuit ad please explain this to me.
 
This is a bit of a stupid comparison if I'm being honest. I also support gun control similar to how I support banning of the niqab because both can be misused by people. How the hell does one misuse a biscuit ad please explain this to me.

ban everything that can be misused? You haven't thought through it.
 
This is a bit of a stupid comparison if I'm being honest. I also support gun control similar to how I support banning of the niqab because both can be misused by people. How the hell does one misuse a biscuit ad please explain this to me.

It is a valid comparison. Your 'misuse' argument though is pretty stupid.
 
UK Muslims do need to take a leaf out of their US counterparts when it comes to assimilating with the west.

There's a reason why US Muslims are more prosperous and educated compared to the average American.

Whereas UK Muslims are less prosperous and educated compared to the average brit.

UK Muslims are also overrepresented when it comes to crime and prison population.

Good suggestion. UK Pakistanis just need to be more prosperous like their US counterparts, they should all get professional jobs instead of manual or low skilled work.

Actually many UK Pakistanis already work in the professional fields, but there are plenty who are in the lower income category as well. But this is more a class issue. Would you be so critical of white working classes? You do know there are plenty of those as well right? Do you think they should take a leaf out of their US counterparts?
 
Why not just be as successful and influential as you can be - why the need fight? I also don’t see what is inevitable about any sort of rising. To truly progress, all walks of life need to move forward - not just the military.

im sorry but I dont understand where you correlated the fight for civil rights to the military. Can you elaborate please?

If you dont fight for your rights you end up with no rights.
 
Good suggestion. UK Pakistanis just need to be more prosperous like their US counterparts, they should all get professional jobs instead of manual or low skilled work.

Actually many UK Pakistanis already work in the professional fields, but there are plenty who are in the lower income category as well. But this is more a class issue. Would you be so critical of white working classes? You do know there are plenty of those as well right? Do you think they should take a leaf out of their US counterparts?

its not just a class issue. Oxford university carried out research that shows attitudes towards Pakistani applicants hasnt changed much since the 1960's.

Here is the link: https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/news-events/news/new-csi-report-on-ethnic-minority-job-discrimination/

Its not as easy to say oh we should get proper jobs. As long as you have discriminatory policies stopping things at the interview or application stage it will remain a problem.
 
Good suggestion. UK Pakistanis just need to be more prosperous like their US counterparts, they should all get professional jobs instead of manual or low skilled work.

Actually many UK Pakistanis already work in the professional fields, but there are plenty who are in the lower income category as well. But this is more a class issue. Would you be so critical of white working classes? You do know there are plenty of those as well right? Do you think they should take a leaf out of their US counterparts?

Never really understood the stark difference between Pakistani-Americans and British Pakistanis. The American ones are liberals and pretty much model citizens with very high level of education and per capita income higher than the average US citizen. Then you have the ones in UK who despite being there for generations now are still not integrated in the general populace, still think of themselves as outsiders. Have very low level of higher education and tend to abuse the welfare system there.
 
Never really understood the stark difference between Pakistani-Americans and British Pakistanis. The American ones are liberals and pretty much model citizens with very high level of education and per capita income higher than the average US citizen. Then you have the ones in UK who despite being there for generations now are still not integrated in the general populace, still think of themselves as outsiders. Have very low level of higher education and tend to abuse the welfare system there.

Let's think outside the bubble for a clue then. We know already that many immigrants from Pakistan came from rural parts of Pakistan. Punjab and Kashmir for the most part, and a lot of them being of rudimentary education levels at best, took on factory jobs or public transport. Some of the more savvy ones built small businesses.

Beyond that, they are pretty similar to white working classes. Most of them happy to stay in their familiar surroundings, and earn just enough to get by. Maybe some of them will sell a few drugs or counterfeit merchandise to supplement their income, again not that dissimilar to whites or blacks. This carries on to future generations, although some will want better for themselves and break out. Again, not much different to blacks or whites. Plenty of them abuse the welfare system. Guess who else does the same?

I have actually quite a good insight into all of this as I have skin in both sides, with some of my family from Pakistan coming from a highly educated background, and some coming straight from the jungle. Same for experiencing life in white areas, went from living in low income white areas, to one of the poshest in the region during my time growing up.
 
Would you have an issue with some example. White british guy move to pakistan. Abandons his religion for islam, change his attire and habits. Would you consider that abandoning his roots?

He’d consider it coming home to reality. Our King Khan is not a relativist ;-)
 
UK Muslims do need to take a leaf out of their US counterparts when it comes to assimilating with the west.

There's a reason why US Muslims are more prosperous and educated compared to the average American.

Whereas UK Muslims are less prosperous and educated compared to the average brit.

UK Muslims are also overrepresented when it comes to crime and prison population.

Fully agree. Having lived in the UK, there is a massive crime problem within the Pakistani community. A significant number of youth are involved in narcotics trade and gangs. Also, there are also involved in welfare fraud, insurance fraud and other petty crimes too.

I know a lot of Pakistanis in the UK who do drugs and engage in petty shoplifting from shops such as Primark.

I remember going to Bradford and it seemed like a third world country with kids running around streets, laundry left out to dry on roadsides and crumbling infrastructure with rubbish strewn everywhere.
 
As long as you don't impose and try to rub your rubbish views on others, it's ok. I know the urban hell Dearborn in Michigan. I know a bunch of homies that talk about Shariah and how America is going to hell. A couple of those men, who are cousins, recently took advantage of the gay marriage laws to marry so one of them could get a green card. The shariah preaching hasn't stopped though. Just leave the archaic laws in the barbaric countries and live your lives in western democracies.
 
As long as you don't impose and try to rub your rubbish views on others, it's ok. I know the urban hell Dearborn in Michigan. I know a bunch of homies that talk about Shariah and how America is going to hell. A couple of those men, who are cousins, recently took advantage of the gay marriage laws to marry so one of them could get a green card. The shariah preaching hasn't stopped though. Just leave the archaic laws in the barbaric countries and live your lives in western democracies.

mad respect to the shariah homeboy for thinking outside the box and marrying a dude for green card :salute

He should be in the corporate world they need people who think outside the box :genius
 
mad respect to the shariah homeboy for thinking outside the box and marrying a dude for green card :salute

He should be in the corporate world they need people who think outside the box :genius

And while we are at it isn't finding loopholes/borderline fraud the most quintessentially american thing out there?

It's kinda like American pie tbh

Look at our President man wrote off 70k hair salon visits as business expenses

Our good old enterprises since the earliest of times were defrauding people/gov to make money and we all respect them for it because they made this country what it is

This land attracted people who liked making money if they were happy in thier comfort zones than they would have stayed in their respective/pathetic countries

But they took chances and came here

So what those young men showed was thier ability to con the system to achieve their american dream

And that something to be applauded they're just following the footsteps of all the immigrants who came before them since the early 1600s till know

Good Lord sure helped the con man's prosper in this great country of ours

I'll just give an example you'll meet a ton of immigrants from the 80s especially saw it in NYC who were illegal but got legal by applying to a fraud scheme which gov made and gov said work in peanut farm for couple of years you'll get legal

But they gave couple hundred dollars to offices in NY who faked the papers to show they worked in a peanut farms

Know some of thier kids are multi millionaire and they themselves built businesses in this great country of ours
Hallaujuah, Amen lord!!!

So they showed the ability to con the system
no matter the obstacles (like marrying your dude cousin)
thus proving thier Americaness to all of us and I appreciate that!

They represent American ideals, aspiration and ideals

Freedom to Connery, fraudulent behavior :salute
 
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Good suggestion. UK Pakistanis just need to be more prosperous like their US counterparts, they should all get professional jobs instead of manual or low skilled work.

Actually many UK Pakistanis already work in the professional fields, but there are plenty who are in the lower income category as well. But this is more a class issue. Would you be so critical of white working classes? You do know there are plenty of those as well right? Do you think they should take a leaf out of their US counterparts?

It's not as simple as that. Also, white working class people are far more educated than those Pakistanis who work in the same industries as them.

I look at some Pakistanis in the UK and wonder damn do you even have any GCSEs bruh.
 
Fully agree. Having lived in the UK, there is a massive crime problem within the Pakistani community. A significant number of youth are involved in narcotics trade and gangs. Also, there are also involved in welfare fraud, insurance fraud and other petty crimes too.

I know a lot of Pakistanis in the UK who do drugs and engage in petty shoplifting from shops such as Primark.

I remember going to Bradford and it seemed like a third world country with kids running around streets, laundry left out to dry on roadsides and crumbling infrastructure with rubbish strewn everywhere.

What you've just summarised is unfortunately the sad state of UK Pakistanis. If the government or your average Joe or Betty was to highlight this, they would be accused of being racist but these are hard facts.

UK Pakistanis have turned Bradford and parts of Birmingham into a dump. One of my good friends (from uni) is a junior doctor, who is originally from Bradford and we were having this discussion last week. He's glad to have upgraded from Bradistan.
 
Would you have an issue with some example. White british guy move to pakistan. Abandons his religion for islam, change his attire and habits. Would you consider that abandoning his roots?

People can do what they like as long it's within the laws. Im not like the secular extremits or the religious zealots, I get on with people regardless of their personal views or personal lives. As long as they dont abuse me or my faith, I will be fine with them. If they do, they better expect a strong response accordingly to what they have done. Ie. If someone debates , Ill debate. If someone abuses, I will do the same. If they attack , I will send them to intensive care.

Do not apply your views on others. There is no law demanding any assimilation, as long as you dont break laws, live, speak, eat, dress, pray or not as you wish.
 
People can do what they like as long it's within the laws. Im not like the secular extremits or the religious zealots, I get on with people regardless of their personal views or personal lives. As long as they dont abuse me or my faith, I will be fine with them. If they do, they better expect a strong response accordingly to what they have done. Ie. If someone debates , Ill debate. If someone abuses, I will do the same. If they attack , I will send them to intensive care.

Do not apply your views on others. There is no law demanding any assimilation, as long as you dont break laws, live, speak, eat, dress, pray or not as you wish.

My post was to your orignal post :
"I assume he means abandon their parents culture and religion completley and perhaps tell the women in the family not to cover their heads but head to the nudist beach. This is extremist mentality of secular activists"

Seems like you had an issue with the other way around.
 
It's not as simple as that. Also, white working class people are far more educated than those Pakistanis who work in the same industries as them.

I look at some Pakistanis in the UK and wonder damn do you even have any GCSEs bruh.

Is that just your opinion or do you actually have any experience of what life is like for white working classes? Interestingly there has been some recent studies about this which shows that white working classes are performing at the lower levels of all ethnic groups, particularly the males;

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-lost-boys-the-white-working-class-is-being-left-behind

On your point about Bradford being turned into a dump, I will agree with you, although I expect it to get better as the standards rise due to more people being exposed to higher expectations. You always get new immigrants creating a bit of a mess, same was true of Sikhs in Southall, and is true now of the east Europeans who have been coming in over the last decade or so. Have you ever been in a run down white working class area? Or a black one? Things might be a bit better than before, but I'm guessing you wouldn't fancy it much.
 
It's not as simple as that. Also, white working class people are far more educated than those Pakistanis who work in the same industries as them.
Completely wrong, white working class are by far the biggest underachievers in education in the UK. Thank God British Pakistanis haven't assimilated into their culture and are now pulling away from them educationally.
 
France teacher attack: Macron hails murdered ‘quiet hero’

French President Emmanuel Macron has paid tribute to "quiet hero" Samuel Paty, the teacher who was beheaded last Friday.

Mr Paty was targeted close to his school near Paris for showing cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad in class.

His killer, 18-year-old Abdullakh Anzorov, was shot dead by police.

Speaking at a televised memorial service on Wednesday, Mr Macron told viewers that France "will not give up our cartoons".

The service was attended by the teacher's family and some 400 guests.

The coffin was brought into the ceremony on the shoulders of a guard of honour and to the sound of the song "One" by the rock group U2.

On top of the casket was Mr Paty's Legion d'Honneur, France's highest honour. It was posthumously awarded to Mr Paty.

Mr Macron said Mr Paty had tried to teach his pupils how to become citizens.

"He was killed precisely because he incarnated the Republic", Mr Macron said. "He was killed because the Islamists want our future. They know that with quiet heroes like him, they will never have it."

Mr Paty had been the target of threats since he showed the cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad during a class on 6 October.

The history and geography teacher advised Muslim students to leave the room if they thought they might be offended.

Depictions of the Prophet Muhammad can cause serious offence to Muslims because Islamic tradition explicitly forbids images of Muhammad and Allah (God).

What is the latest in the Paty case?
On Wednesday, prosecutors said Anzorov had paid two teenage students around €300 (£270; $355) to identify Mr Paty.

The killer told the students he wanted to "film the teacher [and] make him apologise for the cartoon of the Prophet [Muhammad]", anti-terrorism prosecutor Jean-François Ricard said at a press conference.

The students, aged 14 and 15, are alleged to have described Mr Paty, 47, to Anzorov and stayed with him for more than two hours outside the school until the teacher appeared, Mr Ricard said.

The pair, who cannot be named for legal reasons, are two of seven people the French authorities are seeking to prosecute over the brutal attack.

The prosecutor also said there was a "direct causal link" between the killing and an online hate campaign orchestrated against Mr Paty.

The campaign was allegedly launched by the father of one of his pupils. The man, 48, who has been named in French media only as Brahim C, is accused of issuing a "fatwa" against the teacher.

On Wednesday, Mr Ricard confirmed reports that Brahim C, who is also facing prosecution, had exchanged a number of text messages with Mr Paty's killer prior to the attack.

He also posted videos denouncing Mr Paty after he showed the cartoons in two lessons about free speech earlier this month

But Mr Ricard said the father's anger and statements in the videos were based on "inaccurate facts" because his daughter had not been in the relevant lessons.

Mr Paty's killer, Anzorov, was born in Moscow and his family is from Russia's Muslim-majority Chechnya region in the North Caucasus. He had lived in France since 2008.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54639343.
 
Out of curiosity, this part is something I have struggled to understand:

“Depictions of the Prophet Muhammad can cause serious offence to Muslims because Islamic tradition explicitly forbids images of Muhammad and Allah (God)” (this is from the article above this post that SweepShot has pasted).

Why is an image, not in the same vain as what CH published, but a portrait (for lack of a better description) considered heresy? What is the origin of this?
 
Out of curiosity, this part is something I have struggled to understand:

“Depictions of the Prophet Muhammad can cause serious offence to Muslims because Islamic tradition explicitly forbids images of Muhammad and Allah (God)” (this is from the article above this post that SweepShot has pasted).

Why is an image, not in the same vain as what CH published, but a portrait (for lack of a better description) considered heresy? What is the origin of this?

Just a guess: To prevent the worship of a human, no matter how exalted and revered.
 
Out of curiosity, this part is something I have struggled to understand:

“Depictions of the Prophet Muhammad can cause serious offence to Muslims because Islamic tradition explicitly forbids images of Muhammad and Allah (God)” (this is from the article above this post that SweepShot has pasted).

Why is an image, not in the same vain as what CH published, but a portrait (for lack of a better description) considered heresy? What is the origin of this?

I believe it is related to the idea that Islam from the beginning was (and still is) strongly against polytheism and idolatry.

Therefore depictions, artwork, idols, sculptures, statues, etc, of people or beings, which could potentially be “worshipped”, all must not be shown.

Such an act would be linked to the grave sin of “shirk” in Islam. (In Judaism and Christianity, this scenario is covered by the first two Commandments, and equally forbidden.)
 
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I believe it is related to the idea that Islam from the beginning was (and still is) strongly against polytheism and idolatry.

Therefore depictions, artwork, idols, sculptures, statues, etc, of people or beings, which could potentially be “worshipped”, all must not be shown.

Such an act would be linked to the grave sin of “shirk” in Islam. (In Judaism and Christianity, this scenario is covered by the first two Commandments, and equally forbidden.)

Please correct me if I am wrong - the Bible doesn't describe the physical characteristics/appearance of any of the Prophets/Messengers mentioned, including Jesus.
 
I believe it is related to the idea that Islam from the beginning was (and still is) strongly against polytheism and idolatry.

Therefore depictions, artwork, idols, sculptures, statues, etc, of people or beings, which could potentially be “worshipped”, all must not be shown.

Such an act would be linked to the grave sin of “shirk” in Islam. (In Judaism and Christianity, this scenario is covered by the first two Commandments, and equally forbidden.)

Thank you.
 
MACRON’S POLICIES WILL FURTHER STIGMATIZE FRENCH MUSLIMS

Under the banner of protecting the state from “Islamic terrorism,” French authorities launched a crackdown on the country’s nearly six million Muslims. On Monday, October 19th, the government carried out raids targeting Muslim civil society, marking 231 people for deportation, arresting dozens of others, and classifying more than 50 Muslim associations for dissolution.

In response to the brutal murder of Samuel Paty, a secondary-school teacher who was stabbed and reportedly decapitated by 18-year-old Abdullah Anzorov, the French Interior Minister called for swift government measures against “the enemy within,” referring to France’s Muslim community.

One of the organizations the authorities have identified for dissolution is the Collective Against Islamophobia in France (CCIF), an advocacy organization that documents hate crimes against Muslims. The organization has noted rising anti-Muslim sentiment in France and found that in 2019, there were nearly 800 anti-Muslim acts, a 77% increase in two years. In a recent interview, Interior Minister Gérald Darmanin called the organization “an enemy of the republic.”

This is the just the latest in the government’s actions singling out French Muslims, accusing them of supporting “extremism” and “terrorism.” Since January 2020, the government has shut down 73 mosques and Islamic schools, and on October 2nd, French President Emmanuel Macron announced a new law intended to prevent what he called “Islamist separatism” in the country. The measures include giving additional legal powers to local officials to combat ‘“extremism” and placing mosques under greater government control, and requiring the licensing and training of imams to take place in France. Macron announced that the new measures were needed to combat “radical Islamism,” and free Islam in France from “foreign influences.”

For many French Muslims, the fear is that the government is weaponizing the killing of Paty to institute government policy equating Islam to terrorism. Such actions will only continue to marginalize and stigmatize the country’s Muslims, and many are fearful of retaliatory attacks as the media and government play on hypersensitive emotions. The fears were confirmed less than a week after Paty’s murder when two women shouting racial slurs stabbed two Muslim women under the Eiffel Tower.

A standard response to any attack would be for the authorities to carry out an investigation and find the perpetrators and hold them accountable, all while following the rule of law. However, since the killing of Paty, which was carried out by someone who is presumably Muslim, the government’s response has been anything but standard. Time and time again, the French government has held the country’s roughly 6 million Muslims responsible for the actions of one or a few individuals. In a clear example of collective punishment, the authorities are signalling to the wider French society that all French Muslims are somehow responsible for the murder of Paty, simply because they share the same faith as the perpetrator.

Macron had campaigned for his “Islamist separatism” law earlier in the year, claiming government measures were needed to fight against “political Islam.” In a speech delivered in February, the French President alleged that some members of French society were wanting to “separate from the republic,” and thus would no longer respect French laws and threaten the security of others. He consistently alluded to the entire French Muslim community, singling them out as the drivers of this “separatism.”

Speaking with Al Jazeera, French Muslim activist Yasser Louati, stated he believed Macron was “using Islamophobia to power his campaign.” President Macron is nearing the end of his first term as the next election is in 2022, and his first term has been marked by social unrest and economic instability. A June 2020 poll found that Macron’s approval rating stands at 38%.

While Macron positions himself as a centrist, he and his government employ the same rhetoric used by the far-right when it comes to Islam and Muslims. Claims that Muslims are forming a “parallel society” and engaged in a culture war that threatens “European values” and civilization have been a mainstay of far-right politicians and commentators in the country. This far-right discourse has steadily made its way into the mainstream. If there’s one thing the political parties can agree on, it’s the demonization of Islam and Muslims.

Scapegoating Muslims is a tried and tested tactic when it comes to electoral campaigns: it generally pays off. Macron’s intent to tackle “separatism” already has widespread approval as a recent poll found that more 75% of respondents supported the legislation, even though “nearly half worried it might deepen divisions within the country.” Instead of tackling the second wave of COVID-19, the government is busy pointing fingers at the Muslim community, accusing them of failing to “assimilate.” This was exemplified by the Interior Minister’s recent comments expressing shock over halal food sections at grocery stores, instead of focusing on an actual problem: the record 41,622 new cases of the novel coronavirus.

Macron will continue to single out French Muslims and take aim at French Muslim civil society because it’s an easy and electorally lucrative tactic. Instrumentalizing Paty’s horrific murder to justify the state’s repressive measures against the Muslim community will sadly be approved by a large segment of the French public, which has been fed a steady stream of bigoted and dehumanizing views by the government and French media about Muslims. Macron will ride this wave of popular support for what the government has identified as an attack on the Republic, all while alienating and targeting the countries nearly six million Muslim citizens. As leading politicians talk about the need for unity, these illegal policies and actions will only further marginalize French Muslims and create more divisions within French society.

https://bridge.georgetown.edu/research/macrons-policies-will-further-stigmatize-french-muslims/
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">So, all the Muslims around the world, who are shocked and hurt by the attitude of both the French government and media towards Islam and Muslims are all, de facto, "Islamists". In France, get it, the only true moderate Muslim when you insult her/him, must remain silent and smile. <a href="https://t.co/WEwN1NNm5d">pic.twitter.com/WEwN1NNm5d</a></p>— Tariq Ramadan (@TariqRamadan) <a href="https://twitter.com/TariqRamadan/status/1320650072196042753?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 26, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">So, all the Muslims around the world, who are shocked and hurt by the attitude of both the French government and media towards Islam and Muslims are all, de facto, "Islamists". In France, get it, the only true moderate Muslim when you insult her/him, must remain silent and smile. <a href="https://t.co/WEwN1NNm5d">pic.twitter.com/WEwN1NNm5d</a></p>— Tariq Ramadan (@TariqRamadan) <a href="https://twitter.com/TariqRamadan/status/1320650072196042753?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 26, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Who said that? I thought he was in jail awaiting trail for rape.
 
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