Germany restricting arms sales to India-Kashmir attrocities

[KingKhanWC]

Concerns over the security forces’ human rights record in Jammu and Kashmir have raised a barrier before Germany’s small arms exports to India.

German regulations and covenants restrict, and often prohibit, arms sales to nations or regions where their use might cause direct or collateral damage to civilian populations and institutions.

Two Indian security officials familiar with the bar on German small arms producers said these companies had failed to obtain export licences from their government on account of the “poor human rights record” in Kashmir.

https://www.telegraphindia.com/indi...re-germanys-arms-exports-to-india/cid/1807272

This is an important moment. Hopefully more nations will stand up to human rights abuses from the Indian forces in the occupied land of Kashmir.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Nicely played by China... To be fair, I didn't even know Germany was a seller of weapons...

Ah well, we will just have to stick to the high end, more advanced French, Israeli, US, Russian arms etc... This is a blow for India...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Nicely played by China... To be fair, I didn't even know Germany was a seller of weapons...

Ah well, we will just have to stick to the high end, more advanced French, Israeli, US, Russian arms etc... This is a blow for India...

Germany supply the MP5 machine gun, its used widely in many of the worlds security forces, very reasonable priced and realiable. I own one in Pakistan. Of course India will go elsewhere but for a major world nation such as Germany to hold back now may set the way for other nations in the future.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Of course India will go elsewhere but for a major world nation such as Germany to hold back now may set the way for other nations in the future.

Wishful thinking bro, wont happen, India is one of the biggest markets in the world...

Wish we had a peaceful solution that didn't involve weapons period, ah well, maybe in 200 years if humanity still exists then..

 

[KingKhanWC]

Wishful thinking bro, wont happen, India is one of the biggest markets in the world...

Wish we had a peaceful solution that didn't involve weapons period, ah well, maybe in 200 years if humanity still exists then..

Its bad publicity as others will continue to sell but perhaps in a different way. Nations such as UK and Yankistan, dont care, they are all for weaponising others to kill each other.

Both Pak and India should give up this land. Its very stupid to continue hostilities between two nations who can prosper over this land. Maybe you can run for PM, before Rahul try again bro lol.

 

[Bigboii]

Nicely played by China... To be fair, I didn't even know Germany was a seller of weapons...

Ah well, we will just have to stick to the high end, more advanced French, Israeli, US, Russian arms etc... This is a blow for India...

German weapons are advanced
Better than all except for Israel, US

 

[Romali_rotti]

Both Pak and India should give up this land.

Agreed.

Maybe you can run for PM, before Rahul try again bro lol

Oh you are killing me here ..

bold..

 

[Romali_rotti]

German weapons are advanced
Better than all except for Israel, US

Nah.. No way, France manufactures, fighter jets, submarines, ships, they are in a whole new league than Germany.

However Germany has the 911 and the E36 Bimmer M3, those are pretty potent, 2 of my favorite cars and both that I have owned and thoroughly enjoyed...

 

[cric_man]

Nah.. No way, France manufactures, fighter jets, submarines, ships, they are in a whole new league than Germany.

However Germany has the 911 and the E36 Bimmer M3, those are pretty potent, 2 of my favorite cars and both that I have owned and thoroughly enjoyed...

Prior to Scorpenes, the most advanced submarines in the Indian Navy were Shishumar class (licensed produced German HDW type 209s).
Meteor missiles on your Rafales are built by a consortium MBDA (UK/France/Germany,Italy and Sweden)

Look up Leopard Tanks.

The main 120mm smooth bore gun on US M1 Abrams MBT are made by Rheinmetall Germany

Lookup Bremen class frigates....

 

[Romali_rotti]

Prior to Scorpenes, the most advanced submarines in the Indian Navy were Shishumar class (licensed produced German HDW type 209s).

Sure, but how does that prove Germany supplies more advanced weapons than France ? My original point.

Meteor missiles on your Rafales are built by a consortium MBDA (UK/France/Germany,Italy and Sweden)

Ok, if thats the case, Germany may not have much say in about those missiles being sold to India because the intellectual property is owned by multiple countries and majority rules clause come into play.


Look up Leopard Tanks.

Tanks we will be alright, the Arjun MK1 is a home made and looking very effective.

The main 120mm smooth bore gun on US M1 Abrams MBT are made by Rheinmetall Germany

We will be fine for Guns, Israel will supply much better more advanced guns and as much as we need

Lookup Bremen class frigates....

Russian and home made Naval ships will do us fine, no loss here...

 

[Robert]

Nicely played by China... To be fair, I didn't even know Germany was a seller of weapons...

Ah well, we will just have to stick to the high end, more advanced French, Israeli, US, Russian arms etc... This is a blow for India...

Eurofighter, MDBA missiles, Rheinmetall artillery, Heckler & Koch, Sig Sauer, Walther, Mauser?

 

[Romali_rotti]

Eurofighter, MDBA missiles, Rheinmetall artillery, Heckler & Koch, Sig Sauer, Walther, Mauser?

Actually I did know about Eurofighter, but that's not really a German thing, it is more of a European asset.

Rest of what you mentioned, I haven't even heard of it..

 

[gani999]

Germany sells arms to Saudi Arabia which is bombing Yemen back to the stone age, and also to Pakistan which is committing atrocities on Balochis. A bit rich of them to lecture to India.

Must be just a minor diplomatic glitch. I expect German arms sales to India to resume in a few weeks.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Germany sells arms to Saudi Arabia which is bombing Yemen back to the stone age, and also to Pakistan which is committing atrocities on Balochis. A bit rich of them to lecture to India.

Must be just a minor diplomatic glitch. I expect German arms sales to India to resume in a few weeks.

Agreed regarding Saudi but Pakistan/Baloch issue is a bit of a wet dream of Indians.

 

[topspin]

Germany supply the MP5 machine gun, its used widely in many of the worlds security forces, very reasonable priced and realiable. I own one in Pakistan. Of course India will go elsewhere but for a major world nation such as Germany to hold back now may set the way for other nations in the future.

My favourite SMG to use on COD: Warzone. For those who haven't had a chance to play this game, you are well and truly missing out on a masterpiece.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Germany sells arms to Saudi Arabia which is bombing Yemen back to the stone age, and also to Pakistan which is committing atrocities on Balochis. A bit rich of them to lecture to India.

Must be just a minor diplomatic glitch. I expect German arms sales to India to resume in a few weeks.

To be fair this is a China move, but does it really matter to the Indians ? We get access to the best of the best, I mean Germany is nowhere in comparison to our other suppliers.

 

[gani999]

Agreed regarding Saudi but Pakistan/Baloch issue is a bit of a wet dream of Indians.

When Pakistan is doing so much by showing concern for Indian Kashmiris, farmers and minorities, surely India can pay back a bit by backing the Balochis?

And as for wet dreams, 75 years, four wars and and still no Kashmir! Can't beat one better than that

 

[cric_man]

I was responding to your original comment where you first stated that you didn't know if Germany made any weapons then went on to say that French weapons are in a different league altogether. That is not the case.

Does this restriction impact India in any material form, I don't think so.

On Arjun MBT, I would love India to buy it in big numbers (it is affectionately known as Arjunk)


https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-indias-army-hates-its-homemade-arjun-tank-119911

https://www.business-standard.com/a...ank-prefers-russian-t-90s-120020801285_1.html

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...operational/articleshow/47103764.cms?from=mdr

 

[cric_man]

Germany sells arms to Saudi Arabia which is bombing Yemen back to the stone age, and also to Pakistan which is committing atrocities on Balochis. A bit rich of them to lecture to India.

Must be just a minor diplomatic glitch. I expect German arms sales to India to resume in a few weeks.

Germany has an Arms embargo against KSA since 2018. And give me a break on Pakistani atrocities in Balochistan. Pakistan is fighting a low grade foreign funded insurgency there with minimal presence. Unlike Indian Occupied Kashmir where 700,000 Indian are killing, raping Kashmiris with over 70000 Kashmiris killed by Indians.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Surender Modi is Adolf Hitler's successor. How can Germany restrict arms sales to India?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Surender Modi is Adolf Hitler's successor. How can Germany restrict arms sales to India?

Racist on germans to think they have any soft corner for hitler.

 

[CanadianG00se]

My favourite SMG to use on COD: Warzone. For those who haven't had a chance to play this game, you are well and truly missing out on a masterpiece.

Agree

However, hackers/cheaters off late are ruining the game play experience. MP5 is not powerful compared to Mac10.

 

[Slog]

And as for wet dreams, 75 years, four wars and and still no Kashmir! Can't beat one better than that

Lol the only country that has gained land in Kashmir since independence is Pakistan... at least do a simple google search before one liners

 

[gazza619]

To be fair, I didn't even know Germany was a seller of weapons..

That is a good definition of naivety.

 

[gani999]

Germany has an Arms embargo against KSA since 2018. And give me a break on Pakistani atrocities in Balochistan. Pakistan is fighting a low grade foreign funded insurgency there with minimal presence. Unlike Indian Occupied Kashmir where 700,000 Indian are killing, raping Kashmiris with over 70000 Kashmiris killed by Indians.

Arms embargo since 2018 eh?

Germany has sold more than 1 billion Euros worth of arms to the Saudis since 2019.
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-sells-arms-to-members-of-saudi-led-yemen-coalition/a-53000044

So that's one myth of yours busted! The rest of your post is drivel as well.

 

[cric_man]

Arms embargo since 2018 eh?

Germany has sold more than 1 billion Euros worth of arms to the Saudis since 2019.
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-sells-arms-to-members-of-saudi-led-yemen-coalition/a-53000044

So that's one myth of yours busted! The rest of your post is drivel as well.

Reading comprehension much?

Read through your own article before making a fool out of yourself.

The article states Germany has sold weapons to members of Saudi led coalition i-e UAE/Egypt

German arms manufacturers exported over €1 billion ($1.1 billion) worth of weapons to Egypt, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and other countries fighting Houthi rebels in Yemen as part of the Saudi-led alliance.

https://dsm.forecastinternational.c...germany-extends-arms-embargo-on-saudi-arabia/

yup mine is drivel while what comes out of your head is holy cow excrement...

 

[gani999]

Reading comprehension much?

Read through your own article before making a fool out of yourself.

The article states Germany has sold weapons to members of Saudi led coalition i-e UAE/Egypt




https://dsm.forecastinternational.c...germany-extends-arms-embargo-on-saudi-arabia/

yup mine is drivel while what comes out of your head is holy cow excrement...

It's all the same whether they sell to the Saudis or to their satellites. In the end it makes no difference. An the whole German arms embargo against the Saudis is a joke as it is the Saudis who are the biggest beneficiaries of the sales.

https://www.rfi.fr/en/europe/201904...-germany-agrees-indirect-arms-sales-uae-yemen


But it's possibly too complicated for you to understand, so give it a rest

 

[cric_man]

It's all the same whether they sell to the Saudis or to their satellites. In the end it makes no difference. An the whole German arms embargo against the Saudis is a joke as it is the Saudis who are the biggest beneficiaries of the sales.

https://www.rfi.fr/en/europe/201904...-germany-agrees-indirect-arms-sales-uae-yemen


But it's possibly too complicated for you to understand, so give it a rest

Ok arastoo..... move along.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I was responding to your original comment where you first stated that you didn't know if Germany made any weapons then went on to say that French weapons are in a different league altogether. That is not the case.

France makes Rafale all on its own, Eurofighter is developed by a whole bunch of European nations, French company recently won a 50 Billion $$ submarine contract for Australia which German participated in.

France made air craft carriers for Russia, which was blocked from selling due to international pressure. Germany doesn't have the capability to make such a ship.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...d-russia-two-powerful-aircraft-carriers-77241

Then there is the French missile and nuclear technology which is on another league to Germany, I am not even going to get into that.

The case is strong for France producing more advanced weapons than Germany


Does this restriction impact India in any material form, I don't think so.

On Arjun MBT, I would love India to buy it in big numbers (it is affectionately known as Arjunk)


https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-indias-army-hates-its-homemade-arjun-tank-119911

https://www.business-standard.com/a...ank-prefers-russian-t-90s-120020801285_1.html

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...operational/articleshow/47103764.cms?from=mdr


Arjun holds up very well when compared to the T-90, they will be fine, the MK1A is a much improved version is enough for Pakistan

Bold..

 

[cric_man]

France makes Rafale all on its own, Eurofighter is developed by a whole bunch of European nations, French company recently won a 50 Billion $$ submarine contract for Australia which German participated in.

France made air craft carriers for Russia, which was blocked from selling due to international pressure. Germany doesn't have the capability to make such a ship.

Then there is the French missile and nuclear technology which is on another league to Germany, I am not even going to get into that.

The case is strong for France producing more advanced weapons than Germany


Arjun holds up very well when compared to the T-90, they will be fine, the MK1A is a much improved version is enough for Pakistan


Bold..

France was part of the European Fighter consortium along with Germany / Uk/Italy/Spain to build the a joint euro fighter that became Typhoon. The pulled out after almost 5 years of joint development due to disagreement on allocation of work and went solo on Rafale. Some even accused them of leveraging the knowledge share to build the Rafale. But France has a storied history of building work class aircraft going back to Dassault Mirage III / Mystere etc. The difference is national strategy. France post WW2 under DeGaulle mandated all defence equipment to be built in France and invested billions of taxpayer francs in R&D (those socialists!!!). Germany on the other hand was always in favor of building Pan European defence projects (even though they funded most of them). Tornado & Typhoon are the examples. Ironically France & Germany are now developing 5th gen fighter jointly...

Similarly German Leopard2A6/7 have more foreign users the the French Lecrec tank.
German submarines have bigger user base than French. Look up Type 212/214 users.
Meko / Bremen class frigates are used by more user than French.

Germany does not have a requirement for an aircraft carrier so they have never built one. They are not into power projection. I believe by law (I think) Germany cannot even have Nuclear power let alone weapons. France has excelled in Nuclear power plants (civil & military). They have Nuclear SSN/SSBNs which Germany by design chose not to pursue post WW2.

I was merely disputing your assertion that French are miles ahead. German weapons are just as good. In defense contracts sometimes one guy wins sometimes the other.
I have already stated that this restriction will have minimal (if any) impact on India. Best they can do is stop the spare parts for the submarines that IN uses. That maybe a blessing for India since majority of the time those subs are in drydocks for overhauls

Now coming to Arjun being just as good as T-90s, tell me why does the Army operate on 124 Arjun but has over 1100 T90s? The tank has been in development since 1970s
Pak Army would love India to replace all tanks with Arjuns

 

[Romali_rotti]

France was part of the European Fighter consortium along with Germany / Uk/Italy/Spain to build the a joint euro fighter that became Typhoon. The pulled out after almost 5 years of joint development due to disagreement on allocation of work and went solo on Rafale. Some even accused them of leveraging the knowledge share to build the Rafale. But France has a storied history of building work class aircraft going back to Dassault Mirage III / Mystere etc. The difference is national strategy. France post WW2 under DeGaulle mandated all defence equipment to be built in France and invested billions of taxpayer francs in R&D (those socialists!!!). Germany on the other hand was always in favor of building Pan European defence projects (even though they funded most of them). Tornado & Typhoon are the examples. Ironically France & Germany are now developing 5th gen fighter jointly...

Similarly German Leopard2A6/7 have more foreign users the the French Lecrec tank.
German submarines have bigger user base than French. Look up Type 212/214 users.
Meko / Bremen class frigates are used by more user than French.

Germany does not have a requirement for an aircraft carrier so they have never built one. They are not into power projection. I believe by law (I think) Germany cannot even have Nuclear power let alone weapons. France has excelled in Nuclear power plants (civil & military). They have Nuclear SSN/SSBNs which Germany by design chose not to pursue post WW2.

I was merely disputing your assertion that French are miles ahead. German weapons are just as good. In defense contracts sometimes one guy wins sometimes the other.
I have already stated that this restriction will have minimal (if any) impact on India. Best they can do is stop the spare parts for the submarines that IN uses. That maybe a blessing for India since majority of the time those subs are in drydocks for overhauls

Now coming to Arjun being just as good as T-90s, tell me why does the Army operate on 124 Arjun but has over 1100 T90s? The tank has been in development since 1970s
Pak Army would love India to replace all tanks with Arjuns

You pretty much in your post highlighted France is the top dog, and much better than Germany, I don't really need to get my point across with my previous posts .

Aircraft carrier, fighter jet, biggest submarine order ever in the world, received I believe ? $50 billion to France. I mean Germany doesn't even compare .

Pak Army would love a lot of things they don't have or cant have . Arjun has been in development for a long time, so has the Tejas, both are finally coming into fruition. Reasons for the delay was because a lot of technology was barred from reaching India by external powers like the US, Europeans etc, however things have now changed quite a bit as you would know.

Yes I am perfectly confident Arjun MK is enough for handling Pakistan, not saying Arjun will be the sole reason India win a war or a battle against Pakistan, so don't misinterpret .

 

[Bigboii]

You pretty much in your post highlighted France is the top dog, and much better than Germany, I don't really need to get my point across with my previous posts .

Aircraft carrier, fighter jet, biggest submarine order ever in the world, received I believe ? $50 billion to France. I mean Germany doesn't even compare .

Pak Army would love a lot of things they don't have or cant have . Arjun has been in development for a long time, so has the Tejas, both are finally coming into fruition. Reasons for the delay was because a lot of technology was barred from reaching India by external powers like the US, Europeans etc, however things have now changed quite a bit as you would know.

Yes I am perfectly confident Arjun MK is enough for handling Pakistan, not saying Arjun will be the sole reason India win a war or a battle against Pakistan, so don't misinterpret .

Man he clearly made a specific point that you should be addressing which you didn't

France is Independent in defense making (he gave you the history even in NATO tech they aren't as active)

Germany has more of a pan European focused defense

So while France has great defense tech but when comparing its resume with Germany we can't compare just the Individual "german" projects
We have to add "European" defense products into german resume - you should respond to this claim

(Just a side note in a indo-pak "war" scenario a good tank is absolutely nessacery since all the area is pretty flat

Now arjun is a decent to good tank (if we go by specs but India is known for exadurating the specs so we should take it with a grain of salt)

It'll struggle in deserts but I'll give it an edge in flat lands like punajab (but again if one believes in the specs...)

 

[Romali_rotti]

Man he clearly made a specific point that you should be addressing which you didn't

He Clearly made it known
France is Independent in defense making (he gave you the history even in NATO tech they aren't as active)

Germany has more of a pan European focused defense

I am not saying German products are bad, I think he feels I am alluding to that. Its my opinion that France is much further ahead than Germany, I don't believe there is a point in saying Germany doesn't focus on certain items because they don't need to.

- France has one of the best fighter jet on the market, Germany alone doesn't.
- France makes Air craft carriers, Germany doesnt,
- France makes Missiles, Germany I don't believe does,
- France makes Submarines which are considered the best in the world which is one thing Germany can compete with.

So while France has great defense tech but when comparing its resume with Germany we can't compare just the Individual "german" projects
We have to add "European" defense products into german resume - you should respond to this claim.

I am assuming you are talking Eurofighter Typhoon here ? Because that is a 'European' defense product, however France almost single handedly developed the Rafale with their own jet engine, while Germany was part of a collaboration of European countries. France wins here.

(Just a side note in a indo-pak "war" scenario a good tank is absolutely nessacery since all the area is pretty flat

Now arjun is a decent to good tank (if we go by specs but India is known for exadurating the specs so we should take it with a grain of salt)

It'll struggle in deserts but I'll give it an edge in flat lands like punajab (but again if one believes in the specs...)


I am not saying Arjun is a world beater or the greatest thing since slice bread, I feel it will get the job done, the latest variant of it MK1 version.

bold...

 

[Bigboii]

"I am not saying Arjun is a world beater or the greatest thing since slice bread, I feel it will get the job done, the latest variant of it MK1 version."

If you're competing with China than arjun is a bad tank (but it's himalayan theater so doubt anyone will use it)

Against Pak yeah arjun is.good enough to blast into the flat land it's a good enough tank to the job (looking at it's competitor)

Pak desperately needs a new rank the Chinese tanks are really good, Pak should definitely buy em

 

[cric_man]

You pretty much in your post highlighted France is the top dog, and much better than Germany, I don't really need to get my point across with my previous posts .

Aircraft carrier, fighter jet, biggest submarine order ever in the world, received I believe ? $50 billion to France. I mean Germany doesn't even compare .

Pak Army would love a lot of things they don't have or cant have . Arjun has been in development for a long time, so has the Tejas, both are finally coming into fruition. Reasons for the delay was because a lot of technology was barred from reaching India by external powers like the US, Europeans etc, however things have now changed quite a bit as you would know.

Yes I am perfectly confident Arjun MK is enough for handling Pakistan, not saying Arjun will be the sole reason India win a war or a battle against Pakistan, so don't misinterpret .

If you got that from my comparative analysis that shows more countries use Typhoons , Type 209/212/214 Subs, Leopard MBTs than their French counterparts then more power to you... whatever keeps you happy.

You selectively picked on a single aircraft carrier and one sub order to unequivocally state that French are on a different level. French make great defence equipment, and so does the Germans. I don't know whether by nature you have to have the last word to feel good about yourself or is it just with Pakistanis that you have to be always right.

Have a good one Cheers.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I don't know whether by nature you have to have the last word to feel good about yourself or is it just with Pakistanis that you have to be always right.

Have a good one Cheers.

I have been wrong a few times here, [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] has pointed it out to me in the past and I have admitted to it.

This is not a Pakistani, Indian thing for me. I genuinely feel, France are on another level to the Germans as far as military equipment goes, France has proven it by developing Rafale, Air craft carriers on their own etc.

Anyway, lets come to a compromise and agree to disagree.

 

[topspin]

Agree

However, hackers/cheaters off late are ruining the game play experience. MP5 is not powerful compared to Mac10.

Yep, wish Activison would invest in anti-cheat for the game.

The Mac-10 is certainly the go to SMG right now. FFAR is also a very good alternative short range option.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It's all the same whether they sell to the Saudis or to their satellites. In the end it makes no difference. An the whole German arms embargo against the Saudis is a joke as it is the Saudis who are the biggest beneficiaries of the sales.

https://www.rfi.fr/en/europe/201904...-germany-agrees-indirect-arms-sales-uae-yemen


But it's possibly too complicated for you to understand, so give it a rest

Do you live in Bulgaria? I see you have Fortress Europe as your location, but I can tell you are not a European by birth.

 

[the Great Khan]

I have been wrong a few times here, [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] has pointed it out to me in the past and I have admitted to it.

This is not a Pakistani, Indian thing for me. I genuinely feel, France are on another level to the Germans as far as military equipment goes, France has proven it by developing Rafale, Air craft carriers on their own etc.

Anyway, lets come to a compromise and agree to disagree.

Its not about just "quality" its about efficiency and cost effectiveness. The Isrealis love german subs hence why they bought the 214's, if it wasnt for zardari we would have got them too. They can be nuclear armed and are pretty deadly. The leopard was at one point touted as the best tank in the world and it is without a doubt better than the Leclerc that has had a patchy performance record in mostly rich Gulf nations.

The Turks have used the leopard in Syria and it has had an ok record for them. (although modern war means you will lose tanks to anti tank missiles).

Coming onto the effect on india, well i think it will effect R and D and small arms and ammunition development for the Indian army. The Pakistani military has had a long and fruitful relationship with the german small arms industry and we produce many of their products on licence. To the point where they have helped us become self sufficient in the production of small arms and ammunition.

India has a major problem when it comes to small arms and ammunition and many countries out there milk the Indian market for this stuff. Its not just the big ticket items you have to look at, its R&D, and small arms etc. Germany is pretty good in these areas.

Overall the French however are able to develop bigger ticket items for foreign sales. due to the germans facing restrictions cos of WW2.

In the overall scheme of things it shouldnt make much difference to india but in the long term it can have problems when it comes to R&D, logistical assistance, training, small arms development and possible issues if India were to look into joint production etc. It just narrows the options.

France will now be rubbing their hands and looking to make even more money off the Indian tax payer while politicians will also be salivating at the chance of more commissions on arms deals.

Finally with regards to the Arjun, it has no chance in an India Pakistan conflagration. You just dont have enough of them and the Army isnt interested in buying them. They will suffer badly in the punjab and cant really fight much in the desert either. At best they could be used to provide some support in urban warfare and along the border but I doubt they will be used for major offensives into pakistan where the IA will expect to lose tanks..

 

[guna]

India will take its business to some other country. It will be Germany's loss.

 

[Madplayer]

India will take its business to some other country. It will be Germany's loss.

The hindutva extremist troll speaks again. Quite expected from you. Rather than admitting your country's heinous human rights abuses which have lead to Germany taking this action, you blabber on about how India will buy weapons from someone else to continue with their war crimes. Appalling.

 

[IMMY69]

The hindutva extremist troll speaks again. Quite expected from you. Rather than admitting your country's heinous human rights abuses which have lead to Germany taking this action, you blabber on about how India will buy weapons from someone else to continue with their war crimes. Appalling.

The ones that frequent here, the majorly of them, they will never admit it.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Its not about just "quality" its about efficiency and cost effectiveness. The Isrealis love german subs hence why they bought the 214's, if it wasnt for zardari we would have got them too. They can be nuclear armed and are pretty deadly. The leopard was at one point touted as the best tank in the world and it is without a doubt better than the Leclerc that has had a patchy performance record in mostly rich Gulf nations.

The Turks have used the leopard in Syria and it has had an ok record for them. (although modern war means you will lose tanks to anti tank missiles).

Coming onto the effect on india, well i think it will effect R and D and small arms and ammunition development for the Indian army. The Pakistani military has had a long and fruitful relationship with the german small arms industry and we produce many of their products on licence. To the point where they have helped us become self sufficient in the production of small arms and ammunition.

India has a major problem when it comes to small arms and ammunition and many countries out there milk the Indian market for this stuff. Its not just the big ticket items you have to look at, its R&D, and small arms etc. Germany is pretty good in these areas.

Overall the French however are able to develop bigger ticket items for foreign sales. due to the germans facing restrictions cos of WW2.

In the overall scheme of things it shouldnt make much difference to india but in the long term it can have problems when it comes to R&D, logistical assistance, training, small arms development and possible issues if India were to look into joint production etc. It just narrows the options.

France will now be rubbing their hands and looking to make even more money off the Indian tax payer while politicians will also be salivating at the chance of more commissions on arms deals.

Finally with regards to the Arjun, it has no chance in an India Pakistan conflagration. You just dont have enough of them and the Army isnt interested in buying them. They will suffer badly in the punjab and cant really fight much in the desert either. At best they could be used to provide some support in urban warfare and along the border but I doubt they will be used for major offensives into pakistan where the IA will expect to lose tanks..

First of all thanks for your reply.

Secondly, what's your thoughts on the development of Tejas ?. I feel finally its coming along nicely.

The Mk1A and Mk2 will be around 60% indigenous, the fact Indian government has given like a 8 Billion $$ contract to HAL for the purchase of 83 Tejas Mk1, not only boosts the indigenous sector, pumps money back into the economy but finally shows that Tejas has matured.

And lastly, what's your thoughts on the AMCA ?

 

[Bigboii]

First of all thanks for your reply.

Secondly, what's your thoughts on the development of Tejas ?. I feel finally its coming along nicely.

The Mk1A and Mk2 will be around 60% indigenous, the fact Indian government has given like a 8 Billion $$ contract to HAL for the purchase of 83 Tejas Mk1, not only boosts the indigenous sector, pumps money back into the economy but finally shows that Tejas has matured.

And lastly, what's your thoughts on the AMCA ?

Tejas are bad- and thats me being nice
ask any nuteral observer theyll tell you the same thing...

 

[Romali_rotti]

Tejas are bad- and thats me being nice
ask any nuteral observer theyll tell you the same thing...

If they were bad, Indian government would not place an order 8 billion to purchase 83 of them, which is the biggest indigenous order for India ever. The program is maturing, they also have the GE Engines on them... The Mk2 version will be a good one I feel, finally after 40 years, it is a big achievement for India. If Tejas can get close to a Gripen level eventually, they will get plenty of export orders from other countries in Asia and middle east but thats a long way away but they are well on the way...

 

[the Great Khan]

First of all thanks for your reply.

Secondly, what's your thoughts on the development of Tejas ?. I feel finally its coming along nicely.

The Mk1A and Mk2 will be around 60% indigenous, the fact Indian government has given like a 8 Billion $$ contract to HAL for the purchase of 83 Tejas Mk1, not only boosts the indigenous sector, pumps money back into the economy but finally shows that Tejas has matured.

And lastly, what's your thoughts on the AMCA ?

now youve done it lol. So with regards to the Tejas. What actually is the Tejas? I mean from a project level. What were its objectives? when it first started it was a great idea and seemed sensible. Create your fighter industry by building the first south asian fighter jet and then using it to get rid of the Mig 21. Sounds good and if all was well you would have seen it either retiring in the next few years and replaced by another version.

The problem is you have tried to run before walking. India was so fixated on this social experiment of building their own via the public sector they forgot that the best way to move into fighter development is to go into joint production. They should have gone into joint production for an aircraft wit another partner perhaps France or the EU and then gone from there. Unfortunately they did not and you are essentially left with an aircraft that as of now your airforce does not want.

There are benefits to the project that can help india in the long term, e.g the development of expertise you enver had before e.g. in avionics, design, testing etc. But I feel indian aircraft industry is still living in the 20th century and have made this an ego project. Overall i would say the project will provide benefits but its objectives were note met.

However what they should do and I think they will is move to MALE UAVS and Combat drones. Use the expertise they have learnt and start building a UAV industry.

The New tejas will probably be good enough to replace the MIGs but overall i cant see it being used on the front line. Perhaps the new MK will be tested at the border but overall it wont be used in combat inmho.

As for the AMCA, I think you guys should go for a hybrid project with a third party. It will be better or get an off teh shelf product and midfy it for your own needs, concentrate on UAVs and pilotless wingmen concepts etc, look at EW and enhancing your pilots awareness and skills. Also integration with your services. Cut the number of troops and personnel and introduce better tech.

tejas has been used to ensure public sector jobs for the politicians. Just my thoughts..

 

[Romali_rotti]

now youve done it lol. So with regards to the Tejas. What actually is the Tejas? I mean from a project level. What were its objectives? when it first started it was a great idea and seemed sensible. Create your fighter industry by building the first south asian fighter jet and then using it to get rid of the Mig 21. Sounds good and if all was well you would have seen it either retiring in the next few years and replaced by another version.

It was a very ambitious project started back in 84 ?. I think India has learned quite a bit overall despite wasting decades and millions on this project. The fact India put together the Kaveri engine with all the technology denials and sanctions by rest of the world is quite a remarkable feat itself. Safran upon inspecting the Kaveri a few years ago advised, the engine as it is is nearly ready, it needs 30 % more work and it will become a fully functional combat fighter jet engine, big feat by a 3rd world nation. If the sanctions etc did not happen, I feel Indians would have had a solid, working jet engine to power the Tejas, atleast a decade ago. Credit here goes to India's engineers, they were brilliant, a matter of pride..


The problem is you have tried to run before walking. India was so fixated on this social experiment of building their own via the public sector they forgot that the best way to move into fighter development is to go into joint production. They should have gone into joint production for an aircraft wit another partner perhaps France or the EU and then gone from there. Unfortunately they did not and you are essentially left with an aircraft that as of now your airforce does not want.

I think you are underselling Tejas here, yes it has a long long history, however the recent 6 billion $$ order does show the program has matured. The Tejas Mk1 has the GE Engine, Israeli/Indian developed avionics and missiles, it is quite potent and meets India's requirements.


The New tejas will probably be good enough to replace the MIGs but overall i cant see it being used on the front line. Perhaps the new MK will be tested at the border but overall it wont be used in combat inmho.

The Tejas MK1A and Mk2 will be one of the front line fighter jets, with the Rafale and Sukhoi (Russian, yeah it sucks). Indian's would not be spending Millions of $$$ procuring GE Engines from the US, if they thought Tejas was not going to be a good front line defence asset.

As for the AMCA, I think you guys should go for a hybrid project with a third party. It will be better or get an off teh shelf product and midfy it for your own needs, concentrate on UAVs and pilotless wingmen concepts etc, look at EW and enhancing your pilots awareness and skills. Also integration with your services. Cut the number of troops and personnel and introduce better tech.

AMCA from whatever I have read, looks like a very good fighter on paper, it will never be the 5.5 generation which the Indians are claiming, however I feel it will be a true indigenous 4.5 Jet. As for the UAV, I believe Indians are already onto this and they were experimenting the Kaveri engine in its current state on the UAVs.

tejas has been used to ensure public sector jobs for the politicians. Just my thoughts..

Yes, it does provide an economy boost as far as jobs go, however Indians truly believe the Tejas can be the backbone of their fighter fleet, otherwise they wouldnt be spending so much money on it. It may well fail, however I feel its chances of succeeding to meet IAF's requirements are good.

bold...

 

[the Great Khan]

bold...

thanks for your response. The biggest problem teh tejas has had is its slow rate of development. It is a typical waterfall big public sector project. So imagine you have a big set of requirements and you do all this work upfront. You modify the requirements but eventually sign them off. But by the time you get to the design and development stage your customer (the air force) has new requirements. And you go round and round and it takes ages.

The issue is by the time the Tejas gets combat operational it will already be out dated. Thats the biggest issue the IAF have with it. Its just taken way too long. So I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) India have realised this and will be using the expertise they have learnt on the MK1 to modify and develop the mk2, get as many of them to replace the Migs as they can, then shift all of the expertise to UAVs. They are cheaper to build, you can use the expertise on the kaveri for engines for UAV's and ditch the Tejas after you've built a few of them.

I dont know too much about the AMCA but I suspect they will partner with the french on this one or the americans. Or it may be feasible to join in with the tempest project that is in place at the RAF. Go for a real fifth gen option. the brits would give you guys access to stealth tech and your own version of the tempest.

Inmho there is just no use in going for an all india amca. Its just not worth it other than to big up the nationalists ego.

Pakistan has learnt this due to our economic and sanction problem. We have used an agile process with the thunder and its moduler. We will do the same with the new fifth gen project we are working on. india has waaay more expertise in this area and should do the same. Youll have a successful programme within the next decade.

Tejas ko bhul jao yaar, think UAV's and fifht gen with a partner. Thats the future.

The next chinese fighters and UAVs are going to be hear within the next decade and you will be behind again.

by the way Isreali avionics for export are bakwaas. They keep the good stuff for themselves and sell bakwaas abroad. I would stick to one set. e.g. all french or all american with some extras.

With the thunder we have gone with mostly all chinese with some european extras. You should do the same. I think our south asian politicians want to puff their chests out and forget what their forces really want. hence why the PAF took on the thunder without interference from our traitorous politicians. You should get the private sector involved and teh IAF involved very early on. Otherwise it will be tejas again..

 

[KingKhanWC]

My favourite SMG to use on COD: Warzone. For those who haven't had a chance to play this game, you are well and truly missing out on a masterpiece.

Ive not played it but will give it a go. Its a nice size, pretty reliable and fires around 12/13 rounds per second. Lovely piece of kit with a great sound. You can get some great firearms in Pakistan, I try to collect them. In the tribal areas you can access all sorts , some antiques such as Nazi guns or old Soviet weapons. Im sure we will see many American arms on a much larger scale when the Yanks leave Afghanistan.