Greatest Ever Pakistani Singer?

[Saj]

Pakistan has been blessed with some fantastic singing talents over the years, but who in your opinion is the greatest ever and why?

 

[Geordie Ahmed]

NFAK hands down - he is a legend, there are some great singers in that list BUT NFAK is in a league of his own

 

[Oxy]

Ustad Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.

I think the battle is really for 2nd place. NFAK has no equals.

 

[Luton Bad Boy]

Has to be Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, a legend who put Pakistan music on the map, I have seen him live and my goodness it was an exhilrating experience. His words, emotions and talent whilst singing qawalli cannot be matched, his untimely death was a shock to all. In second place would be Abrar ul Haq, who seems genuine, respectful, (no ego yet) and classy classy tracks.

 

[Fessal]

I would say NFAK, Madam Noor Jehan and Mehndi Hassan stand out as legends. Nusrat was and is definitley the biggest legend internationally and in Pakistan as a musician and singer. However, I voted for Noor Jehan because UNFAK is in a class of his own and he was an allround legend inm singing/qawali and also by producing music. The likes of Noor Jehan could be better described just as a 'singer' alone.

Nazia Hassan may not have song many songs but she deserves a mention for really pioneering Pakistani and Asian pop music as does the vital signs band in particular Junaid.

Today Atif is running away with the songs and the likes of Ali Zafar have a good voice a bit like Kishore Kumar.

 

[Fessal]

waisay Ataullah Khan Essakhelvi is definitley the best "folk singer".

The thing is theres different categories of music and singing and overall UNFAK is the best but I still voted for the Madam.

 

[iZeeshan]

Yea there is no competition for first place.

Atif Aslam is and will be the 2nd best

 

[Disco_Lemonade]

NFAK..

how come hadiqa/shehzad made it over nazia hassan/aliazmat/junaid?

abrar and atif are modern day greats..

 

[Oxy]

My 2nd pick would have been troubled soul, Attaulah Khan Esakhailvi.

 

[SUPERSAMI]

Surprised Ustad Amanat Ali Khan isn't one of the options, he'd be my pick.

 

[w4s1m786]

My 2nd pick would have been troubled soul, Attaulah Khan Esakhailvi.

same here, some superb lyrics he has

 

[Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar]

Nayyara Noor is a shocking omission from this list. imo, she is the greatest singing talent in Pakistan and possibly in the subcontinent.

also, how did Junaid and Ali Azmat not make the list and the following did? Junaid and Ali are miles ahead of the following lot:

Jawad Ahmed
Hadiqa Kayani
Shahzad Roy

Iqbal Bano, Pathaney Khan, Tina Sani, Tahira Syed also deserve a mention - at least ahead of Ataullah "truckdriver" Easakhelvi.

 

[Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar]

Atif Aslam is and will be the 2nd best

HAHAHAHAHA... wicked. quote of the decade there. I love this place.

Afridi deserves to be the new captain. Akhtar apparently is a better pace bowler than Waqar. Akhtar is also more "talented" than Wasim.

Humayon Saeed is supposedly Pakistan's best ever actor. it's like Saleem Nasir, Qurban Jilani, Qazi Wajid, Subhani Bayounis, Shujaat Hashmi, Abid Ali, Mohammad Yousuf, Sikander Shaheen, Shakeel, Firdos Jamal, etc didn't/don't even exist.

and now Atif Aslam is the second best singer that Pakistan has ever produced. classic! this just keeps getting better and better.

 

[Saj]

I've added some more options folks.

If anyone now wants to change their choice, let me know and I'll amend the poll accordingly

 

[Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar]

I've added some more options folks.

If anyone now wants to change their choice, let me know and I'll amend the poll accordingly

please change mine to Nayyara. thanks.

 

[SUPERSAMI]

I've added some more options folks.

If anyone now wants to change their choice, let me know and I'll amend the poll accordingly

Saj could you please also add Amanat Ali Khan

 

[Saj]

Saj could you please also add Amanat Ali Khan

done.

MT, changed your vote yar - anything else let me know.

I've also added Ghulam Ali, whose tunes would send me to sleep when I was a kid.

 

[the_game]

Who voted for Abrar? The guy is probably one of the worst singers Pakistan has ever produced! I am not discounting the entertainment value he provides, but his vocal quality is nothing to be proud of.

I voted for Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, who made an impact not only in Pakistan, but abroad as well.

 

[siddharth]

Who voted for Abrar? The guy is probably one of the worst singers Pakistan has ever produced! I am not discounting the entertainment value he provides, but his vocal quality is nothing to be proud of.

I voted for Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, who made an impact not only in Pakistan, but abroad as well.

Absolutely .I still remember those songs of him .He was amazing .

 

[Wiji]

You have Jawad Ahmed on the list but not Atif Aslam.

Discrimination against youngsters I say! Just 'cos we're young doesn't mean we don't have talent. (Plus - I really dislike Jawad).

 

[TAK]

No Alam Lohar

No Shoukat Ali

No InAyat Hussain Bhattia

some iv'e never heard of

wasn't mohammed rafi born in lahore?

 

[The Blazer]

I don't see what all the hype about Atif is. He is so over-rated.

 

[iZeeshan]

Where is Munni Begum?

 

[Asim2Good]

Tassavur Khanum
Tina Sani
Sajjad Ali
should b there in options.
Masood Rana & Ahmad Rushdi MUST b there as well

Attaullah Khan should b in other folk singer list, so other singrs Arif Lohar, Alam Lohar, Abida Parveen, Alan Faqeer, Shazis Khushk would b in that poll so ll b good competition.

Jawad,Abrar etc. shouldn't b in list of "Greatest Pakistani" singers at moment. Others have done bettr job then these guys and did for long time.

Atif need to b in greatest list ? r u guys kidding ? this guy only have 2 albms, let him b succesful for longer period of time to b considered greatest singers on Pakistan

 

[TAK]

Abida Parveen

seconded

 

[SameerM]

NFAK.. since he sang ALLL genre of music.. not just one style of singer

he had hit AFTER hit AFTER hit

He was INTERNATIONALLY known.. unlike ANY of the others in ur list

 

[PlanetPakistan]

Among the young singers Hadiqa is probably the best!

 

[TAK]

He was INTERNATIONALLY known.. unlike ANY of the others in ur list

there is no doubt NFAK was a once in a lifetime phonomenon

he had an international following of people, the vast majority of whom coudn't understand a word he was singing but obviously appreciated something special was happening

 

[suhaib]

the list is missing some big names, why leave out all the youngsters they are the ones who have brought the industry fame and populairty.

best voices are ali zafar, shafqat amanat khan and haroon

best music jal, junoon and abrar

 

[suhaib]

please add the young ones in the list and re-start the poll

also add junaid jamshed

 

[Sohaib]

Don't know what Shehzad, Abrar and Jawad Ahmed doing there in the list!

 

[infamous9383]

attullah, just like his folk songs.

 

[Saj]

Ali Zafar - Pakistans greatest ever singer !!! I thought I'd heard it all.

 

[hasbeen]

NFAk

 

[Medic]

NFAK for me too

 

[Pathan007]

No Mohammad ali shaiki. no Alamgir of coco coreena

 

[the true passionist]

Looking at the pattern above, i wont be surprised to see a post:

"No Akhtar! This can't be a poll of Pakistani Music"

 

[Farhan!]

Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan! He's a legend! Amanat Ali Khan would be 2nd!

 

[ehjaz]

Abrar ul Haq

) )

 

[Osman]

Very harsh some of your comments on Abrar ... i think he is a fantastic singer. the best Pakistani pop singer IMO. He revolutionised Pakistani pop music with his debut song Billo de Ghar.

 

[waqar_ahmad]

ALi Azmat

 

[the_game]

Very harsh some of your comments on Abrar ... i think he is a fantastic singer. the best Pakistani pop singer IMO. He revolutionised Pakistani pop music with his debut song Billo de Ghar.

Osman, hosh ke nakhun lo ! Entertainer he might be, singer he is not.

Saj, as someone mentioned above, where are Mohammad Ali Shahki and Alamgeer?

 

[PlanetPakistan]

Osman, hosh ke nakhun lo ! Entertainer he might be, singer he is not.

Saj, as someone mentioned above, where are Mohammad Ali Shahki and Alamgeer?

it's actually quite a compliment to Abrar as how such an ordinary singer has been able to gain such fame, seems to be a perfect halla gulla character!

 

[PlanetPakistan]

I would say NFAK, Madam Noor Jehan and Mehndi Hassan stand out as legends. Nusrat was and is definitley the biggest legend internationally and in Pakistan as a musician and singer. However, I voted for Noor Jehan because UNFAK is in a class of his own and he was an allround legend inm singing/qawali and also by producing music. The likes of Noor Jehan could be better described just as a 'singer' alone.

Nazia Hassan may not have song many songs but she deserves a mention for really pioneering Pakistani and Asian pop music as does the vital signs band in particular Junaid.

Today Atif is running away with the songs and the likes of Ali Zafar have a good voice a bit like Kishore Kumar.

Top post! I would just like add Hadiqa's name to the list of good young singers

 

[Zinnia]

alamgir, shaukat ali, haroon rashid, that iranian/**** dude forgotten his name.

But i voted for NFAK, he achieved a lot.

 

[Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar]

seems to be a perfect halla gulla character!

halla gulla character? the guy has a masters degree. he used to teach at Aitchison - one of the most prestigious schools in Pakistan. he has opened a hospital and provides healthcare where the government has failed.

have you ever heard him speak? have you paid attention to his lyrics? his lyrics are genuinely funny. he is a very smart guy and has a heart of gold. plus he is a patriot and has done tonnes for Pakistan which is more important than anything else.

also, I don't mean to compare the musical pedigree of Nusrat Fateh and Abrar. but if you just talk about the voice, NFAK's voice was awful too. it was gravelly and hoarse. it wasn't classically beautiful say like Mehdi Hasan or Nayyara Noor's. he sang some beautiful pieces but his voice was awful. there is a difference between having a beautiful voice and having a superior technically trained voice.

NFAK has been made out to be something bigger than he truly was. he used to come on PTV at 11 pm, singing his qawwalis and nobody would listen to him. his qawwalis were mostly popular for their parodies. all of a sudden, he goes to India and the mental slaves that we are, all of a sudden we saw the great musician that he became overnight after his sojourn to India.

it is unfortunate that once somebody becomes India-returned, all of a sudden they become a great artist. says a lot about our mentality.

 

[PlanetPakistan]

[halla gulla character? the guy has a masters degree. he used to teach at Aitchison - one of the most prestigious schools in Pakistan. he has opened a hospital and provides healthcare where the government has failed.

have you ever heard him speak? have you paid attention to his lyrics? his lyrics are genuinely funny. he is a very smart guy and has a heart of gold. plus he is a patriot and has done tonnes for Pakistan which is more important than anything else.

also, I don't mean to compare the musical pedigree of Nusrat Fateh and Abrar. but if you just talk about the voice, NFAK's voice was awful too. it was gravelly and hoarse. it wasn't classically beautiful say like Mehdi Hasan or Nayyara Noor's. he sang some beautiful pieces but his voice was awful. there is a difference between having a beautiful voice and having a superior technically trained voice.

NFAK has been made out to be something bigger than he truly was. he used to come on PTV at 11 pm, singing his qawwalis and nobody would listen to him. his qawwalis were mostly popular for their parodies. all of a sudden, he goes to India and the mental slaves that we are, all of a sudden we saw the great musician that he became overnight after his sojourn to India.

it is unfortunate that once somebody becomes India-returned, all of a sudden they become a great artist. says a lot about our mentality.

MT bhai i am aware of his social work and have listened to a lot of his music, in fact i was listening to "ajja tay bayja cycle tay" just half an hour ago. How ever just because he has a masters degree and does social work that doesn't mean that he can't be a halla gulla guy, my brother has a masters yet he is the biggest halla gulla guy in the entire family.

Secondly NFAK was not only popular in IND or PAK but was popular all over the world including the USA. Waisay i agree that Mehdi Hasan had a better voice than NFAK but NFAK's voice was not awful...not even close!

 

[the_game]

halla gulla character? the guy has a masters degree. he used to teach at Aitchison - one of the most prestigious schools in Pakistan. he has opened a hospital and provides healthcare where the government has failed.

have you ever heard him speak? have you paid attention to his lyrics? his lyrics are genuinely funny. he is a very smart guy and has a heart of gold. plus he is a patriot and has done tonnes for Pakistan which is more important than anything else.

also, I don't mean to compare the musical pedigree of Nusrat Fateh and Abrar. but if you just talk about the voice, NFAK's voice was awful too. it was gravelly and hoarse. it wasn't classically beautiful say like Mehdi Hasan or Nayyara Noor's. he sang some beautiful pieces but his voice was awful. there is a difference between having a beautiful voice and having a superior technically trained voice.

NFAK has been made out to be something bigger than he truly was. he used to come on PTV at 11 pm, singing his qawwalis and nobody would listen to him. his qawwalis were mostly popular for their parodies. all of a sudden, he goes to India and the mental slaves that we are, all of a sudden we saw the great musician that he became overnight after his sojourn to India.

it is unfortunate that once somebody becomes India-returned, all of a sudden they become a great artist. says a lot about our mentality.

Tarar, relax yaar. I was talking about Abrar from a purely singing perspective, where sur and taal are of utmost importance. Nobody is even doubting his social work (or his star power for that matter, he always sells out the biggest crowd in North American concerts as far as Pakistani artists go).

 

[12thMan]

his qawwalis were mostly popular for their parodies.

about NFAK: If you are talking about Fifty Fifty then that has to be Aziz Mian Qawal or Sabri brothers as they were the big ones and I am leaning towards Aziz Mian as the one they made more fun of. Ofcourse no one watched qawalis then and they would show at 10 pm or something right before the TV station will shut down as saying there is nothing left to see here. I can't even remember the qawallis of thoes two groups (I know about sharabi or peena weena chor) and I don't know qawallis of NFAK. I was not in Pakistan when NFAK got famous and found out 2-3 years ago. He had talent, creativity and control of his voice and may have brought some classical stuff to the music, got into ghazals and had some foreign collabrations (a huge thing for fans too). Ofcourse new people like the new stuff and if someone gets famous somewhere it catches on.
I don't like that style of singing much but NFAK was good. overrated??? I don't know then we also hype everyone that gets some name now

 

[12thMan]

I don't have a greatest or best singer. I like different ones at different times. they bring in different things and moods. If someone picks any of them they are right and I like a third of them of them and from that third some more than others. I may buy a CD of a fourth or fifth of the singers listed. And now who I listen to will be the best for me but that doesn't mean the best singer. the best singer may be the least commercial artist who just sang in the wrong era or didn't have a good or catchy song

 

[Asim2Good]

I think pool should b between Madam Noor Jahan, Mehdi Hassan & NFAK. As other singers may have done great job, but they ll not come close to these 3 guys and those singers know that too.
I m not surprised most ppl chose NFAK as he had some fantastic songs in 90s and Qawalis as well. BUT IMO Mehdi Hassan & Noor Jahan should b ahead of NFAK as singers. Their classics songs sung in 60s,70s and 80s are still alive and not to forget Mehdi Hassan's ghazals work as well.

sad thing is we don't have many companies who release our old music with good prints on regular basis and keep them in market (just like in India) so younger generation can enjoy fantastic songs of Noor Jahan & Mehdi Hassan. most memorable songs in Paksitan history would b under name of Mehdi Hassan or Noor Jahan.

and there are other great singers at golden time of Pakistan film indutry like Masood Rana, Ahmad Rushdi, Mala, Bhatti etc. as well who sung beautifully but most Pakistani ppl don't listen to their songs any more.

and guys like Abrar,Jawad, Hadiqa should not b in this poll, they could b in "Best Pop Singer" poll

 

[Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar]

and there are other great singers at golden time of Pakistan film indutry like Masood Rana, Ahmad Rushdi, Mala, Bhatti etc. as well who sung beautifully but most Pakistani ppl don't listen to their songs any more.

Mala was amazing. I have one of her songs courtesy of the Fifty Fifty DVD and what a beautiful voice. Mehnaz was amazing too. but Mala had one of those classically beautiful voices.

when I think of the perfect female voice, I think of either Nayyara or Mala. outstanding singers..

 

[Osman]

Osman, hosh ke nakhun lo ! Entertainer he might be, singer he is not.

Saj, as someone mentioned above, where are Mohammad Ali Shahki and Alamgeer?

hmmmm i think that is a big misconception. He is not just an entertainer ... as well as singing amusing songs he has sung many meaningful religious, spiritual and sad love songs. He can sing all types of songs. i think i need to dig out my Abrar collection for you so that you may listen to all the different types of songs he has sung. It is only because his pop songs such as "Preeto" get more "attention" in the media (probably coz the media seems to use us youngsters as a target audience more) that less attention gets paid to his more meaningful/ sadder tunes.

 

[suhaib]

you cant critize abrar because of his voice, its not that great but nor was NFAKs, its there music what made them, they were great composers and abrar is a great poet is well.

this list is just a list of sajs favorite singers, rather then a poll.

 

[Daoud]

you cant critize abrar because of his voice, its not that great but nor was NFAKs, its there music what made them, they were great composers and abrar is a great poet is well.

this list is just a list of sajs favorite singers, rather then a poll.

Uh oh. I see a lot of trouble coming your way

 

[suhaib]

Uh oh. I see a lot of trouble coming your way

well i dnt seeanything wrong with it. he just had an ordinary voice.
like i said it was his music that made him, same goes for abrar

 

[Asim2Good]

it's good to know "good" taste of some posters.
1 : some say NFAK had ordinary voice.
2 : and Ali Azmat gets more votes than Mehdi Hassan & Noor Jahan

 

[mos123]

Ali Azmat is the best pop singer of Pakistan
and Nusrat Fateh Ali khan is the best classical singer

 

[Asim2Good]

Ali Azmat is the best pop singer of Pakistan
and Nusrat Fateh Ali khan is the best classical singer

so is Mehdi Hassan best Ghazal Singer (in both ind & Pak) and best play back singer in Paksitan History. So is Madam Noor Jahan.
NFAK ll have to compete with guys like Ghulam Ali Khan, Fateh Ali Khan and others to b labelled best as "Best Classical" singer of Paksitan
As for Ali Azmat, this not poll for "Best Pop singer", even it was, he would have healthy competition with JJ,Sajjad Ali etc.

 

[Serendipity]

what about Alamgir, guy had some amazing tracks in his time and was pioneer of modren pop in pak along with Nazia Zohaib combo.

M Ali Shehki (pop, folk, croos over music)
Allan Faqir (Folk)
Alam/Arif Lohar (Folk)
Reshma (Folk)
Shazia Manzoor (?)
Mai Bhagi (Folk)

 

[HAFRIDI]

NFAK hands down!

 

[00_Zed]

My tuppence worth.

Nahid Akhtar - seriously inder-rated. She mayhave had to sing some pretty duff songs but that was the material she had to work with. Her voice was, nevertheless, superb. Pity her husband stopped her singing after he married her.

Runa Laila - while she was from then E. Pakistan she sang a lot in W.Pakistan. Again a superb voice.

Perhpas the poll needs to be modified.

The greatest singer is not necessarily the singer with the best voice.

 

[swaziboy]

ali azmat....nfak is also not bad...

strings dude isnt bad either...
rest r pretty average

all they do is frickin grow long hair n become a sssstar

i wont forget this one punk wots his name...jawad ahmed who got no support performing in the uk on tv and he'd be singing and no one gave him any support...
\musthave been embarassin..still dun understand how he had the b**s to come back

 

[Jayed]

Who had the best vocals?

Who had the best vocals in the subcontinent? Lata Mangeshkar, NurjahaN?

 

[Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar]

Uncle Jayed, isn't music HARAM in Islam? Astaghfirullah...

 

[Zechariah]

^^ You should wash your mouth with tide since you have mentioned that word

Jayed I guess Lata, Asha

Mohammad Rafi, Mukesh

 

[waqar_ahmad]

Ali Azmat

 

[hasan316]

Sajjad Ali and Atif Aslam

 

[Awesome Anjum]

Mohammad Rafi.

This mans voice was like chocolate without the calories.

 

[Luton Bad Boy]

Naseebo Lal!

 

[Jayed]

lets compare the best singers: of india, pakistan and bangladesh and sri lanka.

 

[Faisal Akhtar]

Mohammed Rafi out of the oldies.

I always felt Lata & Asha should have quit singing about 15 years ago, they're both still good singers but you can just tell some old ladies are singing.

Out of the newer generation Udit Narayan is the best vocalist around. Kumar Sanu was good in the 90's but he seems to be over the hill now. Sonu Nigam is another good vocalist but just needs to pick the right songs.

Himmesh Reshammia (or however its spelt) is probably the worse singer to ever to hold a mic. How this guy has sung so many songs is beyond me. All his songs sound the same and the worse thing is, most singers are copying his style of singing. Its kinda ruined the Bollywood music industry. I mean how many songs in the last 2 years could you see being remixed/refixed in the next 20 years? not many.

 

[Jayed]

I'll do comparison of Pak, Ind and Bang male singers.

Ind:

Best male voice; Kumar Sani
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCoOnI3Niy4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B--Z06hzIZM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lwx4amPr4Q&mode=related&search=


Pak:

Best male voice: Atif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc_VAu3f7hg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQkJ5wz2aBs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEpk8KMgQ8c

Ban:

Best Male voice: Asif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRRqG9bfQEg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umKeUhHx96k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE-eFd8derU

Who is the best? I've given links of three videos for each, as they explore different styles. Which one is the best, or, which singer?

Ive narrowed it down to current singers only, even tho the title thread says other so.

 

[Nakhuda]

NFAK is easily the most popular but does that means he's the best!?.I'd say Mehndi Hassan is number one.

 

[hasan316]

Sajjad Ali and Atif Aslam.

 

[Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar]

I'll do comparison of Pak, Ind and Bang male singers.

Ind:

Best male voice; Kumar Sani
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCoOnI3Niy4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B--Z06hzIZM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lwx4amPr4Q&mode=related&search=


Pak:

Best male voice: Atif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc_VAu3f7hg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQkJ5wz2aBs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEpk8KMgQ8c

Ban:

Best Male voice: Asif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRRqG9bfQEg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umKeUhHx96k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE-eFd8derU

Who is the best? I've given links of three videos for each, as they explore different styles. Which one is the best, or, which singer?

Ive narrowed it down to current singers only, even tho the title thread says other so.

haram... haram... kullu HARAM ya sheikh...

Uncle Jayed, when you found that hadith that told you that you were superior to all womenfolk, wasn't there a hadith right after it which said that all music was haram too? or do we just pick and choose our ahadith now?

 

[Jayed]

haram... haram... kullu HARAM ya sheikh...
Uncle Jayed, when you found that hadith that told you that you were superior to all womenfolk, wasn't there a hadith right after it which said that all music was haram too?[B] or do we just pick and choose our ahadith now?[/B]

I think you'll find admiring voices isn't haram.
I never did say that I was superior than anyone.
I am not going to comment on that.

 

[Jayed]

haram... haram... kullu HARAM ya sheikh...

Uncle Jayed, when you found that hadith that told you that you were superior to all womenfolk, wasn't there a hadith right after it which said that all music was haram too? or do we just pick and choose our ahadith now?

Uncle? I'm young and I'm energetic.

 

[siddharth]

Jayed ,from where u got the idea that Kumar Sanu is the best singer right now in India .

According to me he don't even make into top 10 .Sure he is lucky to get some good songs to sing .

That ,doesn't make him the best singer in India.

Also it is a tedious process .As u know we have so many languages and in each language we have some legendery singers as well.

 

[Osman]

haram... haram... kullu HARAM ya sheikh...

Uncle Jayed, when you found that hadith that told you that you were superior to all womenfolk, wasn't there a hadith right after it which said that all music was haram too? or do we just pick and choose our ahadith now?

you don't listen to music at all ?