Has Pakistan finally lost the Kashmir Cause?

[RexRex]

Again, I am talking about individuals, not firms.

If a muslim says he will only hire muslim cooks, I am not only OK, I support that.

Why are you opposed to private firms being allowed to discriminate based on religion ?

 

[Statpadder Inc]

One can't change history, but one mustn't forget it either.
We have had a whole bunch of fake liberals who kept waxing eloquent about the greatness of the Mughal empire and even selectively distorting history for decades simply to appease a certain vote bank. No one called it 'obsession' back then. Now people who are trying to provide a balanced view are being labelled as 'obsessive' and 'in need of counseling'. Nice.

I agree the Mughals are irrelevant now. Once the correct history is published people will stop worrying about them.

Here's my viewpoint on them Mughals:
They were cruel tyrants and shouldn't be glorified, which is what some far left loons have done but the 24/7 obsession that some BIMARU politicians have with them bugs me.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Why are you opposed to private firms being allowed to discriminate based on religion ?

Does your family believe in equal opportunity? Have the marriages been into a single religion, or each religion is equally represented in your family?

 

[RexRex]

Does your family believe in equal opportunity? Have the marriages been into a single religion, or each religion is equally represented in your family?

You didn't answer my question, please do.

 

[CricketCartoons]

You didn't answer my question, please do.

I am putting the discussion back to how equal opportunity doesnt apply to individuals. So all religions equally represented in your family marriages? If not, should it be called bigotry?

 

[RexRex]

I am putting the discussion back to how equal opportunity doesnt apply to individuals. So all religions equally represented in your family marriages? If not, should it be called bigotry?

No such thing as marriage discrimination, is there ? We are free to assosciate with whom we want.

 

[CricketCartoons]

No such thing as marriage discrimination, is there ? We are free to assosciate with whom we want.

Why it is not discrimination when you are choosing someone based on religion?

 

[RexRex]

Why it is not discrimination when you are choosing someone based on religion?

Because we have all personal preferences innit when it comes to marriage ? Likes and dislikes.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Warning

Guys, this thread is about Pakistan's stance on Kashmir. Please stay on topic.

 

[SportsWarrior]

I visited Valley around 8 months ago after close to 15 years. Man, it's a different world now. There are still army men around, but most things look very normal. Unbelievably busy due to lots and lots of tourists. Honestly it was too crowded for my liking. Business is booming everywhere. If they maintain this for a decade it will be a different state and totally wipe out any underlying issues.

 

[Varun]

I visited Valley around 8 months ago after close to 15 years. Man, it's a different world now. There are still army men around, but most things look very normal. Unbelievably busy due to lots and lots of tourists. Honestly it was too crowded for my liking. Business is booming everywhere. If they maintain this for a decade it will be a different state and totally wipe out any underlying issues.

It's the China trick. They flooded Tibet with Han Chinese and ejected whatever issues they were facing there.

 

[SportsWarrior]

What i really enjoyed about my last trip to Valley, was the diversity of tourists. In my previous trips, tourists were either foreigner or from some of the northern states. But this time, i met huge contingent from South India. They were in four buses and seem to be having time of their life. I also met another bus full of extended family from Orissa. I also met a lot of people from UP and Bihar. Even the businesses have diversified. I saw many non-locals working for the businesses although most still seemed to be owned by Kashmiris, although they were mostly older folks. I agree with @Red-Indian's observations. Many local well off families or even those who are lower to middle class want to send of their younger's ones out of Kashmir. This is especially true for Young men. I think they are wary of getting caught in the crossfire of terrorism and Indian army. So most help seems to be imported while their children are working either in middle east or in other parts of India.

The overall feel i got was, Kashmir will be a very different place in 20 years. It will more diverse, will have much bigger service industry and will be highly educated. There seem to be huge thurst on education and Indian government is focusing on opening a lot of higher education institutions. Interesting times.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I visited Valley around 8 months ago after close to 15 years. Man, it's a different world now. There are still army men around, but most things look very normal. Unbelievably busy due to lots and lots of tourists. Honestly it was too crowded for my liking. Business is booming everywhere. If they maintain this for a decade it will be a different state and totally wipe out any underlying issues.

For what it's worth, as an outsider with no skin in the game, it will be a good thing to see Kashmir get back to normal life on that side of the border. Back in the day Bollwyood films used to use it as a setting instead of flying everyone to Switzerland or England. The families who have been decimated by army brutality will not forget, but life should still go on for the residents in general. No one should be forced to live like prisoners in their own homes.

 

[SportsWarrior]

For what it's worth, as an outsider with no skin in the game, it will be a good thing to see Kashmir get back to normal life on that side of the border. Back in the day Bollwyood films used to use it as a setting instead of flying everyone to Switzerland or England. The families who have been decimated by army brutality will not forget, but life should still go on for the residents in general. No one should be forced to live like prisoners in their own homes.

except the army presence life is normal. But you hardly interact with them much. In my previous visits I was stopped at every check post, asked to show documents, asked purpose of visit, and generally it was a pain the back to visit. But this time we can see the army around, there are check posts, but hardly gets stopped everywhere. I was staying there for a week and I was asked once during my late-night return to hotel.

Regarding normal people on the road, they clearly prefer the business and economic boom it has brought to their lives. The next generation of Kashmiris may miss out a bit, especially the young men as they have gone out of the state mostly driven out by their own parents. I stayed in a home stay, a genuine home stay which was managed by an elderly Kashmiri couple, and both their children are out of the state. Daughter is in Ireland and son is in Delhi. Although their daughter and son in law are returning to India in couple of years, they won't be coming back to Valley. They will go to their in-laws place in Mumbai. So many such stories the old couple of was sharing.

What is clearly evident is huge optimism about the future. The biggest complaint I heard was why there was no announcement of election. There is also a resentment that most of the workers are from out of the state but at the same time there is a feeling of acceptance that they will never be able to get enough local youths to fill up all the new opportunities that are cropping up everywhere.

Biggest advantage Mode government has is that most of the new projects announced are all lead by very competent ministries. THey will more or less meet the commitments. This is especially true about road and railway infrastructure already announced. GOvt is also very serious about expanding, IIT, IIMs and AIMMS. So the state can expect continued support to make these institutions very strong there.

Overall it will be a different and better Kashmir when I hopefully go back later this decade

 

[Romali_rotti]

You know what, I actually agree with you, the obsession with the Mughals is tiresome, no idea why Bhakts still spend all their caring about them and it's not possible to change history.

But there were cruel barbarians, there's no need to defend them either, they should be forgotten about and left alone.

Err it was a Bangladeshi that started the Mughal talk on this page of the thread....

 

[Romali_rotti]

What i really enjoyed about my last trip to Valley, was the diversity of tourists. In my previous trips, tourists were either foreigner or from some of the northern states. But this time, i met huge contingent from South India. They were in four buses and seem to be having time of their life. I also met another bus full of extended family from Orissa. I also met a lot of people from UP and Bihar. Even the businesses have diversified. I saw many non-locals working for the businesses although most still seemed to be owned by Kashmiris, although they were mostly older folks. I agree with @Red-Indian's observations. Many local well off families or even those who are lower to middle class want to send of their younger's ones out of Kashmir. This is especially true for Young men. I think they are wary of getting caught in the crossfire of terrorism and Indian army. So most help seems to be imported while their children are working either in middle east or in other parts of India.

The overall feel i got was, Kashmir will be a very different place in 20 years. It will more diverse, will have much bigger service industry and will be highly educated. There seem to be huge thurst on education and Indian government is focusing on opening a lot of higher education institutions. Interesting times.

Recently some of my family from South India visited Kashmir, they were last in Kashmir decades ago. They came back and gave very positive feedback, echoing your sentiments, progress, development and lots of tourist.

My relatives had no choice but to give credit to the Modi Government, they hate BJP to the core as they are hardcode pseudo secularists and also communist supporters.

If my Spaghetti eating Italian Ammayi Sonya was in charge today, Kashmir would have remained a failed state, with no future infested with Islamic terrorism. I keep saying this, give it another 10 years and there would be zero jihadi or extremist elements in Kashmir and it may also become one of the most prosperous states of India...

 

[Romali_rotti]

The families who have been decimated by army brutality will not forget, but life should still go on for the residents in general. No one should be forced to live like prisoners in their own homes.

This I agree with Cap.

No one should forget the brutality, killings and chaos caused by the terrorists driving the Pandits etc out of their homes, which started the turbulence in the valley.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Regarding normal people on the road, they clearly prefer the business and economic boom it has brought to their lives. The next generation of Kashmiris may miss out a bit, especially the young men as they have gone out of the state mostly driven out by their own parents. I stayed in a home stay, a genuine home stay which was managed by an elderly Kashmiri couple, and both their children are out of the state. Daughter is in Ireland and son is in Delhi. Although their daughter and son in law are returning to India in couple of years, they won't be coming back to Valley. They will go to their in-laws place in Mumbai. So many such stories the old couple of was sharing.

The young men have been driven out by the state using military apparatus, that was the whole purpose of deploying hundreds of thousands of troops there. Foreign press bans and internet blackouts similar to what we have seen during the Pakistan election have facilitated this, and it is part of the gradual process of ethnic replacement of Muslim population with hindu. Even one of your own posters has said as much. It was expected, we have seen some Indian posters salivating at the prospect since way back, maybe they don't like their own states that much and have had a greedy eye on the lush Kashmir hills for a long time.

 

[Mesozoic]

"Finally"? They lost it in 1948 itself when their forces were thrown back to Muzaffarabad from the outskirts of Srinagar.

People on this thread who are pinning their hopes on China to invade us and capture Kashmir for them are living in la la land. But they're the same ones craving for an another Ottoman Empire so that pretty much rules out the expectation of well informed statements coming from them.

 

[Cover Drive Six]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1760601418845540857

 

[SportsWarrior]

The young men have been driven out by the state using military apparatus, that was the whole purpose of deploying hundreds of thousands of troops there. Foreign press bans and internet blackouts similar to what we have seen during the Pakistan election have facilitated this, and it is part of the gradual process of ethnic replacement of Muslim population with hindu. Even one of your own posters has said as much. It was expected, we have seen some Indian posters salivating at the prospect since way back, maybe they don't like their own states that much and have had a greedy eye on the lush Kashmir hills for a long time.

No.. But majority no, atleast from my first hand experience talking to many of them. Also, why will army want to move militants or youths who are prone to secession to other parts of the country and import the same issues there? A large part of youth moving out are well off families who have moved abroad. A large portion of lower and lower middle class youth have moved out due to lack of opportunities because of militancy. A significant portion of well of families have sent out their children so that they don't get into trouble. Among those who have moved out overwhelming majority have done on their own.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No.. But majority no, atleast from my first hand experience talking to many of them. Also, why will army want to move militants or youths who are prone to secession to other parts of the country and import the same issues there? A large part of youth moving out are well off families who have moved abroad. A large portion of lower and lower middle class youth have moved out due to lack of opportunities because of militancy. A significant portion of well of families have sent out their children so that they don't get into trouble. Among those who have moved out overwhelming majority have done on their own.

It is strange that Kashmiris only started moving out after half a million troops set up camp in Kashmir with news blackouts imposed simultaneously. It's your country at the end of the day, we can understand if you want Kashmir for a different ethnic population, but we don't need your version of history, it has been unfolding for a long time and is well documented by neutral sources.

 

[Cover Drive Six]

Jammu and Kashmir politician and former Deputy Chief Minister Muzaffar Hussain Baig attended PM Modi’s rally at Maulana Azad Stadium in Jammu on Tuesday.

Not only did he attend the rally, but also praised PM Modi saying, “By giving a multiplier effect to the progress that has taken place in the last five-10 years, the PM wants to give J&K a bigger place in the map of India. It is our responsibility that we should rise above our personal interests and support him in national interests”.

“I am impressed by the development agenda of PM Modi, who also lived up to his promise to grant Scheduled Tribe status to Paharis,” the former Deputy Chief Minister said.

Asked whether he thinks Modi will again become PM after the parliamentary polls, Baig said, “As long as he wants, none can take his place”.

Baig praised the PM for taking everybody and every community along. “This is the cruelest thing if anybody says he differentiates between Hindus and Muslims,” he said.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/Indi...1&cvid=9d874ac7c1ef4d3cb292f6e9f1c825e2&ei=23

 

[Major]

"Finally"? They lost it in 1948 itself when their forces were thrown back to Muzaffarabad from the outskirts of Srinagar.

People on this thread who are pinning their hopes on China to invade us and capture Kashmir for them are living in la la land. But they're the same ones craving for an another Ottoman Empire so that pretty much rules out the expectation of well informed statements coming from them.

To be honest, Pakistanis and overseas pakistanis are ill informed about Kashmir. They still think that a muslim majority exists in these areas.

Even if China helps us get the whole region, there is no way Pakistan would be able to keep a huge population of hindus and bhuddists

 

[SportsWarrior]

It is strange that Kashmiris only started moving out after half a million troops set up camp in Kashmir with news blackouts imposed simultaneously. It's your country at the end of the day, we can understand if you want Kashmir for a different ethnic population, but we don't need your version of history, it has been unfolding for a long time and is well documented by neutral sources.

its part of India. Just like Kashmiris have rights to go and settle anywhere in India, other people should have rights to go and settle down in Kashmir. Tamil Nadu is place where Tamilians have lived for thousands of years, Kannadigas have lived in Karnataka for as long as the written history of the region goes, same with Bengalis in WB, etc. Does that mean others cannot go and settle there? No one ethnicity has exclusive rights to land as long as they part of the union. Right to live anywhere in the country is part of basic rights..

 

[SportsWarrior]

To be honest, Pakistanis and overseas pakistanis are ill informed about Kashmir. They still think that a muslim majority exists in these areas.

Even if China helps us get the whole region, there is no way Pakistan would be able to keep a huge population of hindus and bhuddists

China helping to win these regions for Pak is the stupidest thing I have read. First of all China won't go to full scale war with anyone, because they don't have as many friends around the world. China won't even go to full scale war for Taiwan forget about Kashmir. Even if they did and win it from India, why would they be giving it to Pak? what do they get in return. Pak has absolutely nothing to offer to China. China is only known for issuing warnings so much so that it is a meme - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China's_final_warning

Only way Pak could have gotten any leverage is if they had grown economically stronger before India got its act together. Now that India has got its economy somewhat together and are looking at decades of growth, Pak has absolutely no chance of catching up even on per capita for next two to three decades. After that it won't matter. All the old generation would be gone. State would be well developed. It already has one of the highest HDI's in India, ironically even better than large parts of Pak. A decade or two of good investments and economic growth will wipe out all chances for Pak.

Amount of development happening and investments pouring in to Kashmir is more than whole of Pakistan. heck even what was launched by Modi is probably more than what whole of Pak saw last year. With that amount of investment and economic activity things will change for better.

 

[SportsWarrior]

To be honest, Pakistanis and overseas pakistanis are ill informed about Kashmir. They still think that a muslim majority exists in these areas.

Even if China helps us get the whole region, there is no way Pakistan would be able to keep a huge population of hindus and bhuddists

So much this. Kashmir valley is Muslim majority. But the whole state has significant population of Hindus and Buddhists. Jammu is actually Hindu majority if I am not wrong, and Buddhists are everywhere. And, no they are not ones who have moved recently, they have lived their for thousands of years. People forget the history. Buddhism travelled to China via this area. J&K, Ladak and Tibetan plateau has had Bhiddhism much before Islam was even a thing. Same with Hinduism. Overall state now has Muslim majority but not overwhelmingly so. Also the overall population in a lot of states are reducing in India, especially the states with high HDI. Take a look down





J&K fertility rate is 1.4 which significantly less than replacement rate, meaning that you will naturally see population decreasing over the next few decades. If the economy is booming than there will be people moving in from outside and not all of them will Muslims. So demography will change

By the way every state in India with good HDI is seeing population decline, Kerala, Karnataka, Tamilnadu, Goa, J&K, etc. Each of these states seeing internal migration. My home state Karnataka is full of people from other states. Infact Kannadigas are actually minority in Bangalore, Karnataka's Capital. Only Poor states in Hindi heartland there is an increase of population.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Lol HDI discussion above piqued my interest. Just googled PAK HDI, and i see not a single province of Pak has higher HDI than supposedly oppressed J&K. Why not Pak leaders work to help their people first before fighting others causes?

 

[Mockingbird]

The young men have been driven out by the state using military apparatus, that was the whole purpose of deploying hundreds of thousands of troops there. Foreign press bans and internet blackouts similar to what we have seen during the Pakistan election have facilitated this, and it is part of the gradual process of ethnic replacement of Muslim population with hindu. Even one of your own posters has said as much. It was expected, we have seen some Indian posters salivating at the prospect since way back, maybe they don't like their own states that much and have had a greedy eye on the lush Kashmir hills for a long time.

Years and years of militancy and Congress/NC rule have offered nothing to Kashmiri youth- they lack educational facilities and no work opportunities except tourism which was badly impacted over the last decade. Thats why you will find Kashmiri youth spread out everywhere in the country studying or working. Infact the Modi govt building IIMs/ IITs or creating growth will eventually lead to more Kashmiri youth staying back. Infrastructure growth is always a big positive for uplifting the local population.

 

[Mesozoic]

To be honest, Pakistanis and overseas pakistanis are ill informed about Kashmir. They still think that a muslim majority exists in these areas.

Even if China helps us get the whole region, there is no way Pakistan would be able to keep a huge population of hindus and bhuddists

Yes. The Kashmir valley is definitely 99% muslim but outside of that, most are Hindus/Buddhists/Sikhs.

Just hope this state of limbo ends soon and we recognise the LoC as international border. Could prevent so much loss of lives and capital.

 

[Energy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1760601418845540857

Even the Muslims in Kashmir realise that they are better off being Indian citizens over Pakistanis. Being a Pakistani citizen will give you nothing but embarrassment in every walk of life.

I have raised this point multiple times before that Pakistan has done nothing to develop Kashmir even as a tourist destination, let alone as a city. So what is the talk for? It's a classic slap on the face what this lady has said because Malala actually ran away from Pakistan despite being a Pakistani, despite being a Muslim. So the religious argument has already gone for a toss.

 

[Hextro]

Even the Muslims in Kashmir realise that they are better off being Indian citizens over Pakistanis. Being a Pakistani citizen will give you nothing but embarrassment in every walk of life.

I have raised this point multiple times before that Pakistan has done nothing to develop Kashmir even as a tourist destination, let alone as a city. So what is the talk for? It's a classic slap on the face what this lady has said because Malala actually ran away from Pakistan despite being a Pakistani, despite being a Muslim. So the religious argument has already gone for a toss.

You guys have once again gotten a bit too comfortable. Notice how you guys will never post a survey that can back up imaginary reality. Anyways, let's take a look a some stuff that might be relevant to this discussion.

Some of the massacres(there have been too many to fit in a single post):

During the 2008 Kashmir unrest, the Hindu extremist groups and the supporters of the Bharatiya Janata Party(ruling party) blocked the Srinagar-Jammu National Highway (NH 1A). The only national highway that connects Kashmir Valley to the rest of India remained closed for several days and stopped the supply of essential commodities. In response to the blockade, on 11 August 2008, under the leadership of Sheikh Abdul Aziz, 50,000 to 2,50,000 Kashmiri protesters attempted to cross the Line of Control to Muzaffarabad(Pakistan). The protesters were stopped at Uri which resulted in the killing of fifteen people and hundreds injured when police and Indian paramilitary forces fired on them. A slogan raised by the protesters was, Khooni lakir tod do aar paar jod do (Break down the blood-soaked Line of Control let Kashmir be united again).

1990 Handwara massacre​

"The Handwara massacre was a massacre of 21 unarmed protesters by the Border Security Force of India in the town of Handwara, Kashmir on 25 January 1990."

1990 Zakoora and Tengpora massacre​

The Zakura And Tengpora Massacre was the killing of protesters calling for the implementation of a United Nations resolution regarding the plebiscite in Kashmir at Zakura Crossing and Tengpora Bypass Road in Srinagar on 1 March 1990, in which 26 people were killed and 14 injured by Indian forces. It led Amnesty International to issue an appeal for urgent action on Kashmir.

1993 Sopore massacre​

The Sopore massacre refers to the killing of at least 43 civilians by the Indian Border Security Force (BSF) who were traveling on a bus from Bandipur to Sopore in Kashmir on 6 January 1993. According to some reports as many as 57 people were killed.

On this bloody Wednesday, some shopkeepers were not allowed to come out and they were burned alive inside shops. In all, official Indian Government reports state that 250 shops and 50 homes were burned down although other sources claim as many as 450 buildings were burned down by the border security force. The Independent reported:

Hawal massacre​

The 1990 Hawal Massacre was named after the Hawal area of Srinagar, Kashmir, where, on 21 May 1990, the Indian paramilitary troops of the Central Reserve Police Force opened fire on the peaceful funeral procession which was carrying the body of Mirwaiz Moulana Muhammad Farooq who was assassinated by unidentified gunmen at his Nageen Residence. The funeral procession was taking the body from SKIMS, Soura to Mirwaiz Manzil, Rajouri Kadal.

Victims of the attack state how the massacre was completely unprovoked and they were all unarmed yet the forces fired thousands of bullets. Over 60 were killed and 200 were injured in the massacre and this remains one of the deadliest massacres in Kashmir.

1990 Gawkadal massacre​

"India today described the mood in the Valley as one of open defiance: "Mobs challenged the gun, defying policemen to fire at them". They chanted slogans for "Indian dogs go back" and "Azadi ka matlab kya, La Ilahi lilillah [illallah]" ("What is freedom, Allah is the only god")."

"Indian authorities put the official death toll for the massacre initially at 21–28, however, later raised it to 50 after counting the bodies. International human rights organizations and scholars estimate that at least 50, and likely over 100 protesters were killed—some by gunshot wounds, others by drowning after they jumped into the river in fear."


The genocide of the Muslims of the State of Jammu and Kashmir had started in 1947 when some 200,000 Muslims were killed mercilessly by the forces of Maharaja Hari Singh aided by right-wing Hindu groups and Sikhs (though a report published by The Times on 10 August 1948 had put the figure as 237,000). Since then, the people of Indian Illegally Occupied Jammu & Kashmir (IIOJK) have witnessed death as closely and as frequently as people anywhere under occupation and tyranny would see.

This Singh guy the perfect example of why Jinnah sought a separate state. Hari didn't think twice before selling off the lives of people he ruled over.

sexual violence:
(

1991 Kunan Poshpora incident​

The Kunan Poshspora incident was a mass rape that occurred on 23 February 1991 when a unit of the Indian security forces, after being fired upon by militants, launched a search operation in the twin villages of Kunan and Poshpora, located in Kashmir's remote Kupwara District. While the first information report filed in the local police station after a visit by the local magistrate reported the number of women who reported rape as 23, Human Rights Watch assessed the number of survivors to be up to 100.
The All Parties Hurriyat Conference Azad Jammu and Kashmir (APHC-AJK) chapter has expressed solidarity with the victims of the Kunan-Poshpora tragedy and urged the United Nations to take notice of the worst human rights violations by Indian troops in occupied Jammu and Kashmir.

Pazipora-Ballipora (1991)


"On 20 August 1991, soldiers carried out mass rape in this hamlet, which is only a few kilometers away from Kunan Poshpora. The number of rape victims in this case varied between eight and fifteen or more."


According to a 1993 Human Rights Watch (HRW) report, the security forces use rape as a method of retaliation against Kashmiri civilians during reprisal attacks after militant ambushes. Most rape cases, according to the same report, have occurred during cordon-and-search operations. According to a 1996 HRW report, security personnel in Kashmir have used "rape as a counterinsurgency tactic". Scholar Inger Skhjelsbaek states that the pattern of rape in Kashmir is that when soldiers enter civilian residences, they kill or evict the men before raping the women inside. Scholar Shubh Mathur calls rape an "essential element of the Indian military strategy in Kashmir."


According to Seema Kazi, there is no difference between the motivations behind rape in Kashmir with those which caused rapes to be committed in Rwanda and the Balkans. Kazi opines that rape in Kashmir is a "cultural weapon of war" and that the rape of Kashmiri women by Indian security forces, in the background of a mainly Hindu country repressing a Muslim populace, functions as a tool of "subordinating" Kashmiri males and the wider Kashmiri community. She also states that rape is used to demoralize the Kashmiri resistance and that there have been documented cases of soldiers confessing that they were commanded to rape Kashmiri women.


A study in 2005 by Médecins Sans Frontières concluded that the rate of sexual violence against Kashmiri women was one of the highest among the world's conflict zones, with 11.6% of respondents, out of a total 510 people in their survey, reporting personal experience of sexual abuse.
Since 1989, more than 68,000 people have been killed in the uprising against Indian rule and the subsequent Indian military crackdown.
According to a report by Amnesty International, “The Muslim majority population in the Kashmir Valley suffers from the repressive tactics of the security forces.” In another report of July 2, 2015, Amnesty International highlighted extrajudicial killings of innocent persons at the hands of the Indian security forces in the Indian-held Kashmir.

The report points out, “Tens of thousands of security forces are deployed in Indian-administered Kashmir…the Armed Forces Special PowersAct allows troops to shoot to kill suspected militants or arrest them without a warrant… not a single member of the armed forces has been tried in a civilian court for violating human rights in Kashmir…this lack of accountability has, in turn, facilitated other serious abuses… India has martyred 100,000 people. More than 8,000 have disappeared (while) in the custody of army and state police.”

From January 1989 to September 30, 2016, there have been 10,717 cases of molestation and rape which are reported in Indian-held Kashmir.

Observer, more than two rape or molestation cases have been reported in Jammu and Kashmir per day over the last 24 years but the conviction rate in these cases during the period has been a dismal 3.26 percent.

The government of India has itself admitted 4000 enforced disappearances.

)

I'm gonna stop here because going back and looking at all these crimes makes me sick. I added some more gruesome elements and reports to hit the point home. I'd like to mention that this is bearly the tip of the iceberg.

Even the Muslims in Kashmir realise that they are better off being Indian citizens over Pakistanis. Being a Pakistani citizen will give you nothing but embarrassment in every walk of life.

You call this "being better off"? If you do, then you should be willing to go through everything Kashmiris have and are going through. Yapping is very easy.

Also, how dare you comment on the sentiments of Kashmiris after massacring them so many times?

No wonder the Kashmiris have been attacking Indians indiscriminately. They have no other choice.

I remember concluding in one of my detailed posts about Kashmir that the Indian soldiers fit the criteria of terrorists, I stand by that analysis. They might be the most animalistic and disgusting "soldiers" in the world. And to think that there are hundreds and thousands of them in Kashmir.

No matter what the economic situation in Pakistan is, we at least don't have to deal with this. We are inherently different from most Indians, the same way Kashmiris are. I hope the Kashmiris get their freedom.

Looking up all this has made me see this conflict in a new light. Given that Indian leaders are saying that they want to implement the Israeli "strategy" of suppression on the Kashmiris, I fear that the situation is only going to get worse.

Just say the word and I'll keep going. There's a lot more stuff than this.

I hope this made you happy.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Even the Muslims in Kashmir realise that they are better off being Indian citizens over Pakistanis. Being a Pakistani citizen will give you nothing but embarrassment in every walk of life.

I have raised this point multiple times before that Pakistan has done nothing to develop Kashmir even as a tourist destination, let alone as a city. So what is the talk for? It's a classic slap on the face what this lady has said because Malala actually ran away from Pakistan despite being a Pakistani, despite being a Muslim. So the religious argument has already gone for a toss.

She's reading from a script written for her by the Bharat authorities. What else could she say? It's like when Saddam Hussain captured a British pilot and "encouraged" him to read out a statement denouncing the British govt.

 

[Rajdeep]

Pakistan should focus on its country and its citizen first before thinking about Kashmir.

Pakistan should focus on its minorities first and try to give them their justified rights before thinking about rights of Kashmiri people

Pakistan should focus on its economy first and look how to repay the IMF loan back before focussing on Kashmir.

Last but not the least, Pakistan should look to improve PoK first and not make it a safe heaven for terror camps before thinking about Indian Kashmir.

Among the many great things Modi govt has done, Aug 5 2019 was the best day of his governance when he stripped that Article 370 unilaterally and gave Kashmiri's a chance to propser. I know it will take many decades for brainwashing to go away but we are already seeing progress been made on the state.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Among the many great things Modi govt has done, Aug 5 2019 was the best day of his governance when he stripped that Article 370 unilaterally and gave Kashmiri's a chance to propser. I know it will take many decades for brainwashing to go away but we are already seeing progress been made on the state.

You see the seculars and lefties in India keep saying what has Modi done, what has Modi done

Article 370 removal was one of the most important steps for the country ever..

Then these clowns repeat; 'oh' 'oh' 'how come it doesn't look like Europe now that Article 370 is gone'.

Because India is a developing country, you can't expect things in India to change overnight, it will take a decade or so to see the progress happen in Kashmir.

 

[Energy]

She's reading from a script written for her by the Bharat authorities. What else could she say? It's like when Saddam Hussain captured a British pilot and "encouraged" him to read out a statement denouncing the British govt.

Even if we agree that she's reading off a script, it's still saying the truth i.e. Malala may be killed by her Muslim brothers for her views if she goes back to Pakistan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Pakistan should focus on its country and its citizen first before thinking about Kashmir.

Pakistan should focus on its minorities first and try to give them their justified rights before thinking about rights of Kashmiri people

Pakistan should focus on its economy first and look how to repay the IMF loan back before focussing on Kashmir.

Last but not the least, Pakistan should look to improve PoK first and not make it a safe heaven for terror camps before thinking about Indian Kashmir.

Among the many great things Modi govt has done, Aug 5 2019 was the best day of his governance when he stripped that Article 370 unilaterally and gave Kashmiri's a chance to propser. I know it will take many decades for brainwashing to go away but we are already seeing progress been made on the state.

Can we say the same for Indians? Because if the answer is yes, then there will be nothing to discuss here and no one to discuss it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Even if we agree that she's reading off a script, it's still saying the truth i.e. Malala may be killed by her Muslim brothers for her views if she goes back to Pakistan.

Malala spoke with full freedom to the foreign press and was actually supported by the Pakistani state. Her life became endangered because she spoke against the extremists from her own society which is very tribal.

If you want to draw an equivalence with Malala it would be the Indian Muslim girl who spoke against the Bal Thackaray tributes and got her neighbourhood burned down because of it by enraged hindutvas.

 

[Rajdeep]

Can we say the same for Indians? Because if the answer is yes, then there will be nothing to discuss here and no one to discuss it.

You bolded couple of statements, so a tad unsure which one you are saying it apply to Indians as well.

1. Pakistan should focus on its country and its citizen first before thinking about Kashmir.
How does this this apply to India since J&K is an Indian state. I agree India should focus on its own country and that includes Kashmir. That is exactly what ruling govt is doing by bringing development in the state.


2. Pakistan should focus on its minorities first and try to give them their justified rights before thinking about rights of Kashmiri people
Minorities are flourishing in India in every sector. Indian Muslims have representation in every aspect of society. Our ex president was muslim, our ex cricket captain was muslim. Just yesterday, Sarfraz Khan made his test debut playing for India. The present regime just stopped appeasing them for votes, thats all. That doesn't mean they doesn't get treated nicely. Given a choice no Indian Muslim would ever want to immigrate to Pakistan

 

[Major]

Even the Muslims in Kashmir realise that they are better off being Indian citizens over Pakistanis. Being a Pakistani citizen will give you nothing but embarrassment in every walk of life.

I have raised this point multiple times before that Pakistan has done nothing to develop Kashmir even as a tourist destination, let alone as a city. So what is the talk for? It's a classic slap on the face what this lady has said because Malala actually ran away from Pakistan despite being a Pakistani, despite being a Muslim. So the religious argument has already gone for a toss.

Pakistan cannot develop it due to special status.

But Pakistanis are exploiting Kashmir by buying land in partnership and doing business.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Pakistan cannot develop it due to special status.

But Pakistanis are exploiting Kashmir by buying land in partnership and doing business.

I disagree, Pakistan as a country has always struggled to develop, so there was no chance they would develop the Kashmir that is under their control.

Pakistan and growth/development don't go hand in hand..

 

[shah_1]

The establishment has accepted the bitter reality. You don't see any support for insurgency anymore by intelligence agency for freedom fighters. There maybe hidden agreements with RAW on not supporting proxies wars on both side. I don't see Pakistan state agencies shouting RAW anymore when it comes to Baloch and religious militancy.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You bolded couple of statements, so a tad unsure which one you are saying it apply to Indians as well.

1. Pakistan should focus on its country and its citizen first before thinking about Kashmir.
How does this this apply to India since J&K is an Indian state. I agree India should focus on its own country and that includes Kashmir. That is exactly what ruling govt is doing by bringing development in the state.


2. Pakistan should focus on its minorities first and try to give them their justified rights before thinking about rights of Kashmiri people
Minorities are flourishing in India in every sector. Indian Muslims have representation in every aspect of society. Our ex president was muslim, our ex cricket captain was muslim. Just yesterday, Sarfraz Khan made his test debut playing for India. The present regime just stopped appeasing them for votes, thats all. That doesn't mean they doesn't get treated nicely. Given a choice no Indian Muslim would ever want to immigrate to Pakistan

If Pakistanis and Indians should focus on their own countries and stop poking their nose in other's backyards, how is this disucssion even taking place?

 

[CricketCartoons]

If Pakistanis and Indians should focus on their own countries and stop poking their nose in other's backyards, how is this disucssion even taking place?

Pakistan, the state, not Pakistanis the people.

 

[Varun]

Even if they win Kashmir, leave alone just the cause, that slab of ice is too much headache for it to be worth it anyway.

 

[sweep_shot]

I think IOK and POK should have a joint referendum.

Outcome of the referendum should be respected and implemented.

Referendum should have 3 options - 1) Join India, 2) Join Pakistan, and 3) Become a free country.

 

[Red-Indian]

Like so many have said, I don't think anyone is winning or losing Kashmir at this point. The issue like Bruce Willis in the Sixth Sense is dead but is the last person to know it.

India needs to figure it out and start slowly pulling troops out of the valley so people can start moving on with normal lives like the Sikhs did in the late 00's and early 10's. They obviously can't risk doing it in one shot but there needs to be a clear plan.

Pakistan needs to figure it out and start slowly toning down the rhetoric. For you guys too, it's too emotional an issue to do it at one shot but steady steps can be taken. Maybe you can start with changing the Special status of Pakistani Kashmir and bringing it into the mainstream.

In time, maybe we can turn this issue into a sort of Cyprus between Greece and Turkey. We each maintain our official claims and stances but don't bring it up except rhetorically.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Pakistan, the state, not Pakistanis the people.

Then difficult to say what one state should do and other shouldn't since one is an elected govt representative of it's people, the other is run by a shadow establishment which could be representing anybody depending on which global power they answer to.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I think IOK and POK should have a joint referendum.

Outcome of the referendum should be respected and implemented.

Referendum should have 3 options - 1) Join India, 2) Join Pakistan, and 3) Become a free country.

Pakistan cannot have a proper election among its own people, and you are imagining a referendum in kashmir.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Then difficult to say what one state should do and other shouldn't since one is an elected govt representative of it's people, the other is run by a shadow establishment which could be representing anybody depending on which global power they answer to.

State is the body who is in control. Whether elected or not is immaterial. Elected bodies are fine for civic issues like water supply and garbage collection, bigger decisions are better left to the people who actually control the country.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Pakistan cannot develop it due to special status.

But Pakistanis are exploiting Kashmir by buying land in partnership and doing business.

Pakistan problem is it is always looking up to a messiah to come and fix its issues. They are not ready to put in the hard work to develop. I am not patronizing when i say that some of the poor Pakistanis that i have met in Middle east are as hard work as any other south Asian community. Same with some of the people i have met in US. So clearly there are individuals who are willing to do what is needed to pull themselves and their families up towards a successful future. But Pakistan as a country repeatedly fails to do it.

There is nothing more indicative of this disease than their politician's propensity to get suck up to army to get power. If all the politicians come together and form an alliance and refuse to support Army intrusion into civilian lives, there is very little army can do. Afterall Army is only 750K and not all of them want to rule over the country. Most want to do their primary jobs and go home. Instead of that every politician wants to be in bed with army. Nawaz suggested this and if i am not wrong even Benazir created some kind of a democratic alliance to prop up democracy. But they all end up always going back to army

When IK was ousted after VONC, all he had to do was sit in the opposition and highlight the failures of the government. The next government would have been his. Infact that VONC came as a blessing. He was thrown out when the economy was getting into trouble. He could have let govt dig their own graves and now sailed into govt, if he did not go around offending everyone. Once in the government with sufficient majority, they can work to curtail army interference slowly.

What has all this done, is it has weakened all the institutions. Bureaucracy, Parliament, Judiciary, Election commission, public offices etc. are all compromised and don't have the respect that they need to work independently and productively. All this weakens the country from within. No Pak government. which has not leg to stand on, will be able to push any of their causes on the international forums. Once that happened Kashmir is lost for Pakistan

I am not saying that everything is Sugar and Honey in India. But the institutions are stronger, they more or less get their job done. Irrespective of corruption and corrupt politicians, they are still held accountable to people. Election commission is autonomous and conducts elections on time, bureaucracy may be creaking but still functional and Judiciary still holds respect. Irrespective of outward differences between BJP and other opposition parties, for majority of the bills they work together to pass. BJP can't say its way or highway as they don't have the majority in the upper house making it a requirement for them to work with opposition parties. Moreover major parties all agree on high level policies and differing only in how they are implemented. All this makes the institutions stronger allowing them to pursue policies internally and externally.

Only way for Pak to have had any say in Kashmir issue was to get stable government and become economically relevant in the international arena. That time has passed. Even assuming that Pak grows economically in step with India, they will always be behind due to the gap already created. Even when they have same quality of life, India will always hold more say due to sheer size. And looking at the current trajectories, Pakistanis are unlikely to be on par with Indians in the next few decades. After that Kashmir won't even be an issue.

So to answer the OPs question, yes, Pak has lost the Kashmir cause. Go ahead and concentrate on making Pakistanis lives better

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

State is the body who is in control. Whether elected or not is immaterial. Elected bodies are fine for civic issues like water supply and garbage collection, bigger decisions are better left to the people who actually control the country.

If Bilawal/Sharif clans are back in the seat then I guess that would be USA. But that will have little bearing on the Kashmir issue.

 

[deltexas]

This should explain things :

How Pakistan’s Military Lost Kashmir

An arrogant and bloated army bears its share of responsibility for Kashmiri suffering.

foreignpolicy.com

 

[Cricket Warrior]

With these looters r back in government eventually i would say Pakistan has lost this cause.

 

[globetrotter]

With these looters r back in government eventually i would say Pakistan has lost this cause.

No… opposite will happen, this coalition will put Kashmir issue on top agenda, it will distract pak ppls and media and at the same time they start looting process

 

[Hitman]

Pakistan's newly-elected PM Shehbaz Sharif rakes up Kashmir issue, pledges to improve ties with all leading nations, including neighbours​

Islamabad: Pakistan's newly-elected Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif on Sunday raked up the Kashmir issue in his maiden address but pledged to improve ties with all leading nations, including the country's neighbours.

Shehbaz said that Pakistan would not become part of any 'great game' and his government would increase the number of friends. He pledged to build and improve ties with all leading nations, including neighbours. "We will keep ties with neighbours on the basis of equality,” Shehbaz, 72, said as he easily won the election in the National Assembly to become Pakistan's prime minister for a second time.

Shehbaz, however, raked up the Kashmir issue and equated it with Palestine. “Let’s all come together […] and the National Assembly should pass a resolution for the freedom of Kashmiris and Palestinians,” he added.

He also thanked his allies in the coalition government for putting their trust in him and making him Leader of the House.

"When my Quaid (leader Nawaz) was elected the prime minister thrice, the development that followed in the country is an example of its own. And it is not wrong to say that Nawaz Sharif is the one who built Pakistan,” Shehbaz said in his victory speech.

The Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) president thanked his elder brother Nawaz and all the allies for putting their trust in him and making him Leader of the House.

Shehbaz, who was the consensus candidate of the PML-N and the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP), received 201 votes in the 336-member house.

Shehbaz's challenger Omar Ayub Khan of jailed former prime minister Imran Khan's Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) secured 92 votes.

Shehbaz said that the country was facing challenges primarily due to the fragile economy. He said that he was starting his tenure when the country was facing a budgetary deficit of more than one trillion rupees.

“How we will pay the salaries for armed forces and how to pay the civil servants,” he wondered and added that reforming the economy was the biggest challenge faced by the country.

Shehbaz highlighted the burden of debt paying and said that the country was required to pay billions of rupees in interest only.

He highlighted that the energy sector was crumbling due to the accumulating debt owed by the country to the power-producing companies. He also mentioned that state-owned entities like Pakistan International Airlines were running into losses worth billions of rupees.

He promised to put the country on the path of development and announced to overcome all hurdles. “Though it is easier said than done, we will fulfill our task,” he said.

Shehbaz said that the government was determined to bring the country out of the current crisis. “I don’t want to set any deadline but due to various steps we will take, the positive results will start pouring in after a year,” he said.

He promised to bring investment into the country and create economic conditions that would spur economic growth. He also vowed to spread the web of “one window” export zones in all four provinces and work day and night to fulfil all these promises.

The newly-elected premier vowed to make Pakistan "self-sufficient". "We will rise and we will make Pakistan self-sufficient," said Shehbaz.

"There are talented people sitting in this Parliament who can steer Pakistan’s ship to the shore […] these include journalists, intellectuals, politicians, religious leaders,” he said.

Shehbaz said Pakistan had a big challenge and opportunity before it. “If we come together and decide to change the fate of Pakistan […] then God willing, we will defeat these challenges and take Pakistan to its rightful position,” he said.

He highlighted that this job was difficult but not impossible.

"Back to the good old days of development! Onwards and upwards. Nawaz Ka vision, Shehbaz Ka mission,” the PML-N said in a post on X along with a picture of both the leaders.

“The other name of deliverance is MUHAMMAD SHEHBAZ SHARIF,” it said in another post. The session of the new parliament was convened amid ruckus and sloganeering by PTI-backed lawmakers.

In his speech, Shehbaz also said that the nation would always remember the sacrifices of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, the founder of the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) and the maternal grandfather of Bilawal Bhutto Zardari.

He also announced the elimination of terrorism from the country by following the already adopted National Action Plan to deal with extremism in the country.

Shehbaz also targeted his rivals Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf for attacking the national institutions and army buildings on May 9 last year when supporters of Imran Khan resorted to violent protest against his arrest in a case of alleged corruption.

"It is shameful that the country saw a day when GHQ, corps commander houses, airfields were attacked on May 9,” Shehbaz said, adding that such sights are unforgettable.

He said that the PTI put the entire opposition behind bars without caring about women or children and used language that cannot be said out loud. “This is the difference between this leadership and that leadership; the entire assembly is
witness to the fact that we never thought of the politics of revenge,” he said.

Shehbaz also said that those responsible for the May 9 incident would not be spared while saying that all innocent people implicated in various cases would be spared.

Opposition PTI lawmakers kept on shouting slogans during the speech by the prime minister who, undeterred by the rowdyism continued his address and made a long speech on the occasion. He asked the opponents to seek recourse to the national
institutions to get the complaints about rigging redressed.

Shehbaz also questioned why Imran Khan wrote a letter to the International Monetary Fund which he said was tantamount to inviting foreign intervention in the affairs of the country. He offered reconciliation to the opposition and invited them to
also cooperate to address the economic issues.

He will be administered the oath of office on Monday at the Presidential mansion, Aiwan-e-Sadr.

Shehbaz earlier served as prime minister of a coalition government from April 2022 to August 2023 before Parliament was dissolved to hold general elections.​

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Link: https://www.deccanherald.com/world/...-leading-nations-including-neighbours-2919961

 

[ex-q-zit]

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Lol.

 

[PakLFC]

We have lost nothing because the Kashmiris never really wanted to be part of Pakistan and still don't. Most of them want independence from both Pak and India. The Kashmiris want a Pak-Bharat war hoping it will result in independence for them. Any community who does not want to be a part of Pak should not be forced to become a part of us.

 

[Cover Drive Six]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1765668983716425910

 

[Cover Drive Six]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1765690527817576589

 

[Cover Drive Six]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1765655231050727488

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Why are all these people speaking pro-Modi separated and speaking individually? It only raises suspicion that they are hand selected and reading from a carefully prepared script. This will only fuel suspicion that it is propaganda, especially after hindu posters have openly said on these boards that the sooner the Muslims in India emigrate to Pakistan, the better for the whole country.

You can't have it both ways. Either the Muslims of India are proud Indians, which is something I suggested, or they are traitors with more love for Pakistan according to your own Indian posters. Which is it?

 

[sweep_shot]

Why are all these people speaking pro-Modi separated and speaking individually? It only raises suspicion that they are hand selected and reading from a carefully prepared script. This will only fuel suspicion that it is propaganda, especially after hindu posters have openly said on these boards that the sooner the Muslims in India emigrate to Pakistan, the better for the whole country.

You can't have it both ways. Either the Muslims of India are proud Indians, which is something I suggested, or they are traitors with more love for Pakistan according to your own Indian posters. Which is it?

I wouldn't be surprised if some Indian posters here are from BJP IT cells. Not impossible.

BJP IT Cell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[JaDed]

I wouldn't be surprised if some Indian posters here are from BJP IT cells. Not impossible.

BJP IT Cell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You don’t have to be surprised, India is doing propaganda like every countty, including Arabs Turks and Chinese

 

[CricketCartoons]

Why are all these people speaking pro-Modi separated and speaking individually? It only raises suspicion that they are hand selected and reading from a carefully prepared script. This will only fuel suspicion that it is propaganda, especially after hindu posters have openly said on these boards that the sooner the Muslims in India emigrate to Pakistan, the better for the whole country.

You can't have it both ways. Either the Muslims of India are proud Indians, which is something I suggested, or they are traitors with more love for Pakistan according to your own Indian posters. Which is it?

You still see everything under monochromatic lens. Either Or. Indian muslims come in all varieties. Some praise pakistan to troll the bjp supporters. They do look up to Iqbal ( he is very popular among indian muslims) but don't look up to pakistan as a country, just like some pakistanis who settle in UK don't look up to pakistan anymore and feel more comfortable in identifying as a british.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I wouldn't be surprised if some Indian posters here are from BJP IT cells. Not impossible.

BJP IT Cell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

BJP IT cell is pathetic and lazy. Living off the work of independent hindutva soldiers.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You still see everything under monochromatic lens. Either Or. Indian muslims come in all varieties. Some praise pakistan to troll the bjp supporters. They do look up to Iqbal ( he is very popular among indian muslims) but don't look up to pakistan as a country, just like some pakistanis who settle in UK don't look up to pakistan anymore and feel more comfortable in identifying as a british.

I look more at direction and general observation of how people are headed in India, regardless of whether they are Muslim or hindu. So I'm sure there will be many patriotic Indian Muslims even now, and I am sure there will be some who look with starry eyes at Pakistan. But we look at who the leader of India is now, I see how the Indian media and their bots interract on Pakistani sites and the general trend is not friendly shall we say. No doubt someone will jump up and say vice versa, fair enough, Pakistan establishment may hold the whip hand.

Anyway, I digress. These singular interviewees being presented to give carefully scripted speeches only reek of pro-Modi propaganda. If you had some cheering local bystanders perhaps we could take it more seriously.

 

[PakLFC]

We know how poorly the Pak economy is doing. I just don't see why the Kashmiris would want to be a part of Pakistan. This is a very painful pill for us to swallow. Until we improve our economy they won't be attracted to us. Surely, the people of IoK know the awful situation in Pak. How are we gonna take care and feed millions of these people? Many Kashmiris live and study in states and cities outside IoK as it is. Why why would they be interested in coming to Pak?

 

[Hitman]

Here's Shehla Rashid, a muslim Kashmiri girl reporting ground realities about Modi's Kashmir visit.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1765701870394192267

https://twitter.com/x/status/1765809646617460943

 

[Kriketer]

Pakistan should focus on its country and its citizen first before thinking about Kashmir.

Pakistan should focus on its minorities first and try to give them their justified rights before thinking about rights of Kashmiri people

Pakistan should focus on its economy first and look how to repay the IMF loan back before focussing on Kashmir.

Last but not the least, Pakistan should look to improve PoK first and not make it a safe heaven for terror camps before thinking about Indian Kashmir.

Among the many great things Modi govt has done, Aug 5 2019 was the best day of his governance when he stripped that Article 370 unilaterally and gave Kashmiri's a chance to propser. I know it will take many decades for brainwashing to go away but we are already seeing progress been made on the state.

Could say the same thing about people who take a lot of pride with their thousands of years old civilization. What is it again 5,000 year old? and yet you have massive scale of poverty and hunger issues, and known to have toilet issues for the masses. Not sure why Indians think that their recent development has put them far ahead, you are rather doing bare minimum for a billion and are far behind compared to many other countries that you run to in first opputunity. I have repeated this several times here because we keep seeing the blinded neighbours high on their useless bharat pride, a few billionaires, a few tech CEOs and sending russian shuttles to space does not change fortunes of deprived billions.

A few Kashmiris siding and voicing for India is no issue, it's Kashmiris right to choose what they want and your words coming on behalf of people who have tortured IOK Kashmiris for 75 years is rather naive. Pakistan was dragged into illegal wars so it will go through its course of struggle and Establishment deep corruption sure doesn't help but Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir hadn't had to endure torture, kidnapping, massacre, curfew of 75 years that we have seen throughout IOK history and this is all documented by UN Human right groups. A few development scheme and packages don't change history and current state of affairs.

Just like how India can never take Azad Kashmir back from Pakistan, similar is the case with IOK for Pakistan, unless both countries have a full scale war which wouldn't benefit anyone. I personally believe fighting over land and killing over it is a stoneage practice, we as a human race need to come out of it. If Indians can take their army out and let Kashmiris live in peace and elect per their wishes don't think they would have much problem with India in the long run. Ideally Kashmiris should be given the right to referendum for the entire region, just because India is developing it doesn't mean a region would blindly go to them. China is light years ahead of India and has Aksai Chin (part of disputed Kashmir region) could we make a case of handing the rest of Kashmir to them just because they make great bridges and tunnels and are dominating the world with their trade? Answer is No, there is a reason why there are borders all across the world.

 

[Mockingbird]

Here's Shehla Rashid, a muslim Kashmiri girl reporting ground realities about Modi's Kashmir visit.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1765701870394192267

https://twitter.com/x/status/1765809646617460943

Shehla Rashid, that JNU girl? Since when did she start praising Modi!

 

[Hitman]

Shehla Rashid, that JNU girl? Since when did she start praising Modi!

Changed her tune since the last few months.

 

[Mamoon]

Could say the same thing about people who take a lot of pride with their thousands of years old civilization. What is it again 5,000 year old? and yet you have massive scale of poverty and hunger issues, and known to have toilet issues for the masses. Not sure why Indians think that their recent development has put them far ahead, you are rather doing bare minimum for a billion and are far behind compared to many other countries that you run to in first opputunity. I have repeated this several times here because we keep seeing the blinded neighbours high on their useless bharat pride, a few billionaires, a few tech CEOs and sending russian shuttles to space does not change fortunes of deprived billions.

A few Kashmiris siding and voicing for India is no issue, it's Kashmiris right to choose what they want and your words coming on behalf of people who have tortured IOK Kashmiris for 75 years is rather naive. Pakistan was dragged into illegal wars so it will go through its course of struggle and Establishment deep corruption sure doesn't help but Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir hadn't had to endure torture, kidnapping, massacre, curfew of 75 years that we have seen throughout IOK history and this is all documented by UN Human right groups. A few development scheme and packages don't change history and current state of affairs.

Just like how India can never take Azad Kashmir back from Pakistan, similar is the case with IOK for Pakistan, unless both countries have a full scale war which wouldn't benefit anyone. I personally believe fighting over land and killing over it is a stoneage practice, we as a human race need to come out of it. If Indians can take their army out and let Kashmiris live in peace and elect per their wishes don't think they would have much problem with India in the long run. Ideally Kashmiris should be given the right to referendum for the entire region, just because India is developing it doesn't mean a region would blindly go to them. China is light years ahead of India and has Aksai Chin (part of disputed Kashmir region) could we make a case of handing the rest of Kashmir to them just because they make great bridges and tunnels and are dominating the world with their trade? Answer is No, there is a reason why there are borders all across the world.

You are slow with the news. A lot has changed since 2019 and I know this bothers Pakistanis a lot but it is the reality.

Pakistan never had any claim to Kashmir and neither was it ever our business. As a princely state, Kashmir had the right to choose and they chose India at the time of partition, end of story.

The only illegal occupation that has happened was Pakistan taking over a part of Kashmir and hence the name Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is more apt than “Azad Kashmir”.

The only reason Pakistan kept meddling in Kashmir is because it allowed the military establishment to exercise control and get richer.

The worst thing that ever happened to Pakistan was the death of M. A. Jinnah before the formalizing of its constitution. The military quickly occupied the power vacuum and they have been calling the shots ever since.

Throughout its history, Pakistan has lived on propaganda to mask its failures. They have been taken to the cleaners by India in every war but still try to claim victory in 1965 and spend billions of rupees every year to celebrate its failures with airshows.

They lost half the country in 1971 and surrendered to India in broad daylight and still have the audacity to talk.

Now let’s talk about referendum in Kashmir. Firstly, Kashmir is not capable of being an independent country because they don’t have the resources and they will not get any aid and support from India for obvious reasons.

Why would India support and help them get on their feet after wanting independence from India?

Where will Kashmir’s army come from? What about their air force? How will they manage their security? How will they manage their ever growing population in their small valley?

How will they manage their international relations and trade? Have you and others ever thought about these things or are you too busy talking about their independence without thinking about how their independence will be facilitated?

You might say that Pakistan will be supporting and funding them, will lend military personnel and assets, but a struggling country like Pakistan cannot look after its own how can they support a newly established country stand on its feet?

Furthermore, even if J&K is granted independence, there is absolutely no chance of the Pakistani state letting POK go.

The people of Kashmir have lost millions because of their refusal to understand that remaining part of India is in their best interests and key to their bright future. They cannot survive as an independent country and they cannot survive as part of a failed state like Pakistan.

The young generation is beginning to understand and make peace with which is why so much has changed since 2019 and Kashmir is now a prosperous and thriving state with very little violence that too in a few pockets and it will only be getting better.

Give it another 10 years and Kashmir will be just another state in India with people living happily and taking pride in being Indian while Pakistanis will be boiling with anger and frustration and living in denial.

It is time to move on and look after your own failed state. Don’t worry about people who never were and never will be your problem.

 

[Kriketer]

You are slow with the news. A lot has changed since 2019 and I know this bothers Pakistanis a lot but it is the reality.

Pakistan never had any claim to Kashmir and neither was it ever our business. As a princely state, Kashmir had the right to choose and they chose India at the time of partition, end of story.

The only illegal occupation that has happened was Pakistan taking over a part of Kashmir and hence the name Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is more apt than “Azad Kashmir”.

The only reason Pakistan kept meddling in Kashmir is because it allowed the military establishment to exercise control and get richer.

The worst thing that ever happened to Pakistan was the death of M. A. Jinnah before the formalizing of its constitution. The military quickly occupied the power vacuum and they have been calling the shots ever since.

Throughout its history, Pakistan has lived on propaganda to mask its failures. They have been taken to the cleaners by India in every war but still try to claim victory in 1965 and spend billions of rupees every year to celebrate its failures with airshows.

They lost half the country in 1971 and surrendered to India in broad daylight and still have the audacity to talk.

Now let’s talk about referendum in Kashmir. Firstly, Kashmir is not capable of being an independent country because they don’t have the resources and they will not get any aid and support from India for obvious reasons.

Why would India support and help them get on their feet after wanting independence from India?

Where will Kashmir’s army come from? What about their air force? How will they manage their security? How will they manage their ever growing population in their small valley?

How will they manage their international relations and trade? Have you and others ever thought about these things or are you too busy talking about their independence without thinking about how their independence will be facilitated?

You might say that Pakistan will be supporting and funding them, will lend military personnel and assets, but a struggling country like Pakistan cannot look after its own how can they support a newly established country stand on its feet?

Furthermore, even if J&K is granted independence, there is absolutely no chance of the Pakistani state letting POK go.

The people of Kashmir have lost millions because of their refusal to understand that remaining part of India is in their best interests and key to their bright future. They cannot survive as an independent country and they cannot survive as part of a failed state like Pakistan.

The young generation is beginning to understand and make peace with which is why so much has changed since 2019 and Kashmir is now a prosperous and thriving state with very little violence that too in a few pockets and it will only be getting better.

Give it another 10 years and Kashmir will be just another state in India with people living happily and taking pride in being Indian while Pakistanis will be boiling with anger and frustration and living in denial.

It is time to move on and look after your own failed state. Don’t worry about people who never were and never will be your problem.

Usual from a guy in Mumbai. I have heard of horror stories from Kashmirirs who were in IOK, and they know what's best for them, as I said it wasn't in Azad Kashmir where they were tortured, murdered and curfewed for 75 years. Someone from a third world country where hunger, poverty are a norm for masses shouldn't talk much on behalf of others. You have a billion malnourished to worry about, you can keep doing mera bharat mahan delusional rhetorics but they don't change ground realities and history of the region. You recently made it on the top of global hunger index in Asia so worry about all your other regions.

There is more to life than seeing things only from financial perspectives, when there is peace then countries are bound to develop at their own pace that's how world is naturally progressing. Look at many smaller countries much cleaner nicer stable richer than India. There are many smaller countries who are not rich but far better than India/sub continent, so this notion that just because India economically is doing recently well (despite having terrible third world issues for billion) is the reason to give away a disputed region is stupid when there's been a bloodbath throughout decades.

And you support corrupt mafia in Pakistan so why are you complaining about it.

 

[Mamoon]

Usual from a guy in Mumbai. I have heard of horror stories from Kashmirirs who were in IOK, and they know what's best for them, as I said it wasn't in Azad Kashmir where they were tortured, murdered and curfewed for 75 years. Someone from a third world country where hunger, poverty are a norm for masses shouldn't talk much on behalf of others. You have a billion malnourished to worry about, you can keep doing mera bharat mahan delusional rhetorics but they don't change ground realities and history of the region. You recently made it on the top of global hunger index in Asia so worry about all your other regions.

There is more to life than seeing things only from financial perspectives, when there is peace then countries are bound to develop at their own pace that's how world is naturally progressing. Look at many smaller countries much cleaner nicer stable richer than India. There are many smaller countries who are not rich but far better than India/sub continent, so this notion that just because India economically is doing recently well (despite having terrible third world issues for billion) is the reason to give away a disputed region is stupid when there's been a bloodbath throughout decades.

And you support corrupt mafia in Pakistan so why are you complaining about it.

I don’t live in Mumbai. I live in Pakistan.

The world doesn’t run on fantasies and wishful, delusional thinking. It is not about size, it is about the fact that Kashmir is already a heavily destabilized region that is slowly getting back on its feet in the last few years.

An independent Kashmir cannot sustain itself because it doesn’t have the means and the resources. Kashmir borders will have to be militarized and they will need a proper army and an Air Force.

They will need to trade with other countries. They will need to manage its own economy and population. What will happen if the millions of Kashmiris who are settled in other parts of India are deported?

What if India tells them that since you really wanted to your own country and you were too good for India, go back to your new country, we have no space for you anymore. How will Kashmir accommodated all these people.

Do you actually think about these things? Clearly not.

An independent Kashmir country in the geopolitical dynamics is wishful thinking. They will collapse in no time.

As far as Pakistan not torturing POKs, watch what happens when they demand independence. Pakistan is more capable than India when it comes to brutalizing its own people.

What Pakistan did to the people of Bangladesh is nothing compared to what India did to the people of J&K. The torture and brutality are not even on the same scale.

The only thing that compares is what Japan did to China in the Second World War.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Give it another 10 years and Kashmir will be just another state in India with people living happily and taking pride in being Indian while Pakistanis will be boiling with anger and frustration and living in denial.

I have been saying the above for a few years now, give it another 10 years....

There is a possibility in a few years Kashmir's economy alone will be worth more than Pakistan's..

Ever since PM Modi took control; Its nail, coffin, hammer for Pakistan as far as Kashmir is concerned..

 

[Mamoon]

I have been saying the above for a few years now, give it another 10 years....

There is a possibility in a few years Kashmir's economy alone will be worth more than Pakistan's..

Ever since PM Modi took control; Its nail, coffin, hammer for Pakistan as far as Kashmir is concerned..

What Modi did in Kashmir should have been done long ago but Indian PMs have been very soft on Kashmir. Modi took a few tough decisions but it was for long-term betterment and prosperity.

The worst example of Indian’s soft stance is of course Vajpayee nearly handing over Kashmir to Musharraf, same Musharraf who trigged the Kargil War and although Indian handed a severe beating to Pakistan, Indian soldiers died for no reason.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

Someone from a third world country where hunger, poverty are a norm for masses shouldn't talk much on behalf of others. You have a billion malnourished to worry about, you can keep doing mera bharat mahan delusional rhetorics

Where do you get these facts from, some local tv channels, you really need to stop listening to random analyst.

And lets not compare the 2 countries, pakistan is dependent on foreign loans just to survive as country, as 0 economy and 0 growth other than alms from china.

you need to make sure that you don't become as bad as somalia

 

[Romali_rotti]

What Modi did in Kashmir should have been done long ago but Indian PMs have been very soft on Kashmir. Modi took a few tough decisions but it was for long-term betterment and prosperity.

The worst example of Indian’s soft stance is of course Vajpayee nearly handing over Kashmir to Musharraf, same Musharraf who trigged the Kargil War and although Indian handed a severe beating to Pakistan, Indian soldiers died for no reason.

PM Modi saw the nonsense that was been sinking the country for years by my Italian ammayi Sonya and decided to do something about it.

I heard murmurs of a potential deal between Busharaff and Vajpayee were both were in mutual agreement on a Kashmir solution, don't have much details on it. All I heard was Busharaff was taken out of the Pakistani leadership as Pakistani military did not want a solution on Kashmir.

Even if the Kashmir solution which Busharaff & Vajpayee was favorable to Pakistan, Pakistani military would not allow it, as they would become irrelevant and ppl may revolt against them for controlling whatever economy Pakistan has...

Pakistan is a lost cause, it can't be redeemed, its' destiny with or without Kashmir is sealed, but Pakistani military might as well make some profit on the name of Kashmir while they are at it...