Have Australia and India hit rock bottom?

[Junaids]

In recent years we have seen the quality of Test cricket sink lower than it has for many decades.

Australia, for example, became 2023 World Test Champions with the same bowling attack and same batsmen who were massacred by the last decent South African team in 2017-18. And they were the BEST team in the world in 2021-23.

But I think today we have seen Australia hit rock bottom.

The 34 year all-rounder Mitch Marsh has finally been dropped, averaging in the 20’s with the bat and nearly 40 as a part-time bowler. Dropped from a team in which the sole player under 30 years of age is 19.

So who is the young prospect who has replaced him?

Beau Webster. A 31 year old veteran who was never good enough in his twenties to get close to Test cricket. Averaging less than 40 with the bat in First Class cricket and bowling just as slowly as Mitch Marsh.

India are basically the same. They have the same Bumrah who has been there for years, albeit with a more suspicious action than before a la Saeed Ajmal, but the support bowlers are worse than they have been for 20 years. The much vaunted but comically mediocre Siraj is now 30 but has less than 100 Test wickets at an average of 31. (In comparison, Shaheen Afridi is 6 years younger and has 116 Test wickets at 27.88).

And while there are promising young batsmen, the Indian batting order is weaker than it has been since at least 1996, when they had Tendulkar/Dravid/Azharuddin/Ganguly/Manjrekar (not to mention Srinath/Kumble/Prasad).

Yes, most other Test teams are weaker - including Pakistan.

But it is impossible to draw any conclusion other than that Test cricket is weaker than it has been for at least 50 years.

The question which will be answered at Lords in June is whether Australia or India in steep and terminal decline are still better than a raw but improving young South African team.

It has been fun watching Australia v India and South Africa v Pakistan.

Fun because watching two third rate teams play each other can be interesting because they are well-matched because they are each as mediocre as the other.

It’s like watching an English League One football match between Stockport County and Wrexham.

It’s interesting because they are evenly matched. Because they are both equally rubbish.

 

[Varun]

2-1* flatters us somewhat.

Alarm bells should have rung after the 0-3 vs NZ at home.

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

Team India has some of the greatest players in its history in the squad.

We have the world's greatest fast bowler, world's greatest spin all rounder, world's greatest off spinner ( now retired) and one of the most successful batsmen in overseas conditions in the history of cricket. It is a strong side that can go head to head with any side in the history of the game.

I will not comment on the relative strengths and weakness of other countries. It is the business of their fans and boards to hold them under account. What I will say is that test cricket is only surviving because of the guidance and support of the BCCI. Without us, test cricket worldwide will be finished.

 

[Junaids]

Team India has some of the greatest players in its history in the squad.

We have the world's greatest fast bowler, world's greatest spin all rounder, world's greatest off spinner ( now retired) and one of the most successful batsmen in overseas conditions in the history of cricket. It is a strong side that can go head to head with any side in the history of the game.

I will not comment on the relative strengths and weakness of other countries. It is the business of their fans and boards to hold them under account. What I will say is that test cricket is only surviving because of the guidance and support of the BCCI. Without us, test cricket worldwide will be finished.

Yeah, right, sure.

That’s why Test venues in England and Australia and even New Zealand often sell out, and why their Pay TV stations pay so much for TV rights (as does SuperSport in South Africa).

It’s ODI and T20i which loses money here.

 

[kron]

Not as hard as your iq which was already sub 100

 

[Ab Fan]

Every era produces great players. We realise it only after that period is over so it is easy to come out and claim at any point that this era is the weakest in the history of all time. The same era which will be remembered 10 years later for producing batters like Harry Brooks, Jaiswal, Babar Azam, Travis Head, Rishabh Pant, Rachin Ravindra, Kamindu Mendis, Washington Sundar, Saim Ayub, Sam Kontas, Tristan Stubbs and few more.

Right now some of these names are nobodies so it is easy to say that there isn’t much quality left but once they become established, everyone will start respecting them. Hence, it will always look like the present era is the weakest era because the present players are still playing and have long way to become greats for their country.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

India still has a vast talent pool to players, some of whom could be good. For now, only Jaiswal really stands out, but we don't how how guys like Gill or Washington Sundar could turn out with the passage of time. They certainly have potential.

Australia though, I'm not sure. I see too many key players in that side in the same age group (Starc, Hazelwood, Smith, Boland, Lyon, Khawaja) who may retire in the next few years, which will create a big vacuum in the side. And Australia have not exactly found major long-term prospects to plug those gaps besides Travis Head and Cam Green. I guess maybe Sam Konstas could be backed, but the kid is 19 and very raw and untested at this point.

 

[Varun]

India still has a vast talent pool to players, some of whom could be good. For now, only Jaiswal really stands out, but we don't how how guys like Gill or Washington Sundar could turn out with the passage of time. They certainly have potential.

What's so great about Gill? Don't care what he does in ODI/IPL.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

What's so great about Gill? Don't care what he does in ODI/IPL.

He has played some good knocks in tests too. Mostly in India, but a couple outside India too. Personally, I don't think he is that great. He has glaring flaws in his game. But he has shown some flashes of brilliance and right now is probably India's best future batting prospect after Jaiswal.

 

[uppercut]

Yes, most other Test teams are weaker - including Pakistan.

But it is impossible to draw any conclusion other than that Test cricket is weaker than it has been for at least 50 years.

You keep harping about old era cricket and when challenged will promptly do a runner... will it be any different this time? If so, then pick some old cricket footage on YouTube from the 70s or 80s Ashes cricket and post the link here so we can analyze to our hearts content and find out what High quality cricket Actually looks like.

 

[kron]

Best era ever
Just cause pakistan sucks doesn't mean everyone else sucks.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Yeah, right, sure.

That’s why Test venues in England and Australia and even New Zealand often sell out, and why their Pay TV stations pay so much for TV rights (as does SuperSport in South Africa).

It’s ODI and T20i which loses money here.

Yeah Pay TV stations pay so much for Test cricket and that's why SA and NZ have reduced their home Test seasons to 2 Tests per season barring the odd exception.


And venues even in Australia only sell out for England and maybe India. Cricket Australia made significant losses in 2023/24 because the touring teams were West Indies and Pakistan . (USD 21.3 million in loss at the end of last year)

But please continue with your evangelism @Junaids.

 

[Mamoon]

I disagree. I think the quality of Test cricket in the last 10 years has been world class and far better than the 2000s and early 2010s which was the worst period for Test cricket since the 1970s.

2000-2015 would have been a completely forgettable era of cricket if it wasn’t for the great Australian team in the first half and South Africa/England in the early 2010s.

 

[sweep_shot]

I don't think Australia have hit rock bottom. They are still holders of ODI WC and WTC. Also, they are on the verge of making it to another WTC final.

They have declined but are still good enough to win trophies.

 

[Devadwal]

Last decades is best era for the test cricket.

I enjoyed the test cricket more than ODI amd T20 cricket.

Op is always living in delusion .

 

[Junaids]

I don't think Australia have hit rock bottom. They are still holders of ODI WC and WTC. Also, they are on the verge of making it to another WTC final.

They have declined but are still good enough to win trophies.

My point is that they won the World Test Championship with players in their thirties who had been demolished by AB De Villiers and Morne Morkel when they were at their peak.

 

[Junaids]

India still has a vast talent pool to players, some of whom could be good. For now, only Jaiswal really stands out, but we don't how how guys like Gill or Washington Sundar could turn out with the passage of time. They certainly have potential.

India is a fascinating case.

Rohit, Kohli, Pujara, Rahane, Ashwin, Jadeja, Shami and Bumrah lost multiple Test series in England, New Zealand and South Africa.

Their sole claim to being anything special rests upon two series victories in Australia while they were getting beaten everywhere else in SENA.

But those two victories are about to be followed by a loss in Australia. And both victories occurred because India got lucky facing a below-strength Australia.

In 2018-19, Smith and Warner were banned and Australia was reduced to using Aaron Finch as a Test batsman.

In 2020-21 a weak Australia was reduced to playing a second wicketkeeper, Matthew Wade, as a specialist batsman. But New Zealand won that World Test Championship, and India’s victory was over a uniquely weak Aussie team.

Yes, it’s a big thing for an Asian team to win in Australia. But India beat unusually weak Australian teams, rather like New Zealand and England winning Test series in Australia in 1985-86 and 1986-87.

A significant number of Australian and Indian fans imagine that the current series is between two top teams. It isn’t.

It’s between a second-rate India who just lost 3-0 at home to New Zealand, and an ancient Australian team which has ten players over 30, who were slaughtered when they were at their peak by the last good South African team.

 

[Mesozoic]

OP is a typical nostalgia merchant who overhypes all the mediocrities from his young days just because those were the best days of their lives and everything seemed colourful and joyous.

Now that their best years are miles beyond them and they're old & miserable, nothing seems good anymore and everything has "degraded".

A tale as old as time..

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

India is a fascinating case.

Rohit, Kohli, Pujara, Rahane, Ashwin, Jadeja, Shami and Bumrah lost multiple Test series in England, New Zealand and South Africa.

Their sole claim to being anything special rests upon two series victories in Australia while they were getting beaten everywhere else in SENA.

But those two victories are about to be followed by a loss in Australia. And both victories occurred because India got lucky facing a below-strength Australia.

In 2018-19, Smith and Warner were banned and Australia was reduced to using Aaron Finch as a Test batsman.

In 2020-21 a weak Australia was reduced to playing a second wicketkeeper, Matthew Wade, as a specialist batsman. But New Zealand won that World Test Championship, and India’s victory was over a uniquely weak Aussie team.

Yes, it’s a big thing for an Asian team to win in Australia. But India beat unusually weak Australian teams, rather like New Zealand and England winning Test series in Australia in 1985-86 and 1986-87.

A significant number of Australian and Indian fans imagine that the current series is between two top teams. It isn’t.

It’s between a second-rate India who just lost 3-0 at home to New Zealand, and an ancient Australian team which has ten players over 30, who were slaughtered when they were at their peak by the last good South African team.

That may be true but winning two series in Australia in itself is nothing short of remarkable when you consider the history of Asian sides in Australia. Besides that they have also drawn series in South Africa and England. Probably could have won in England too had they not ran away before playing the last test. Few teams have done as well as India have away from home from the Kohli-era onwards. Also, while you can make a case that Smith and Warner were missing in 2018, 2020/21 was an astonishing comeback from them despite 36 all out and having their C team in the last test. And then ofcourse you also have the absolute domination in home conditions from 2016-24.

Now that era has come to an end and India will have to rebuild, but what they have achieved under Kohli in particular has been outstanding and deserves to be acknowledged.

 

[Buffet]

Quality of test cricket has been better in the last 10 years. Result oriented pitches and teams going for wins. Much better than 00s decade.

 

[Junaids]

Quality of test cricket has been better in the last 10 years. Result oriented pitches and teams going for wins. Much better than 00s decade.

Really?

Let me take as an example a period when Test cricket was in a relative downturn, the second half of the 1980’s.

Consider these bowling line-ups:

West Indies: Ambrose - Bishop - Walsh - W Benjamin

Pakistan: Imran Khan - Wasim Akram - Saleem Jaffer - Abdul Qadir

South Africa: Donald - De Villiers - Snell - Rice

Australia: Reid - McDermott - Lawson/Alderman - Taylor

England: Foster - Dilley - Botham - Emburey/Edmonds.

That makes five countries with bowling attacks with a depth unimaginable nowadays.

The same applies with batting: England who were a distant fifth could field:

Gooch
Broad
Gatting
Gower
Lamb
Botham

It’s quite astonishing to compare with today. South Africa has almost no batting whatsoever now, whereas then they had:

Cook
Wessels
Pienaar
P Kirsten
Rice
Kuiper
McMillan
Jennings

I listed five bowling attacks above: I think all five would be odds on to whitewash the four Test teams we will watch tomorrow.

The collapse in quality is astounding.

 

[Rajdeep]

Now that sir @Junaids have said India team hit the rock bottom, I hope that is the case. The only direction one can go from rock bottom is upwards. Also, when India tours England this summer, there should be no expectation and even if India lose 5-0 it will be along the expected lines for a rock bottom team. However, if they somehow manage to win few games or even the series, it will be considered a massive humiliation for England.

 

[Itachi]

Now that sir @Junaids have said India team hit the rock bottom, I hope that is the case. The only direction one can go from rock bottom is upwards. Also, when India tours England this summer, there should be no expectation and even if India lose 5-0 it will be along the expected lines for a rock bottom team. However, if they somehow manage to win few games or even the series, it will be considered a massive humiliation for England.

We just need one prediction from snak3yes and fortunes will turn.

You remember him?

 

[Rajdeep]

@Bhaag Viru Bhaag bro pls read this thread. India is a rock bottom team now...so any wins going forward is a bonus and loss is expected. No more fun for you when we tour Eng this summer and lose. If we fluke a win however, I can have a field day.

Terrific thread by my much learned friend @Junaids

 

[jnaveen1980]

If world no.1/no.2 ranked sides hit the rock bottom (in tests) think about others?

 

[anikrc1]

Really?

Let me take as an example a period when Test cricket was in a relative downturn, the second half of the 1980’s.

Consider these bowling line-ups:

West Indies: Ambrose - Bishop - Walsh - W Benjamin

Pakistan: Imran Khan - Wasim Akram - Saleem Jaffer - Abdul Qadir

South Africa: Donald - De Villiers - Snell - Rice

Australia: Reid - McDermott - Lawson/Alderman - Taylor

England: Foster - Dilley - Botham - Emburey/Edmonds.

That makes five countries with bowling attacks with a depth unimaginable nowadays.

The same applies with batting: England who were a distant fifth could field:

Gooch
Broad
Gatting
Gower
Lamb
Botham

It’s quite astonishing to compare with today. South Africa has almost no batting whatsoever now, whereas then they had:

Cook
Wessels
Pienaar
P Kirsten
Rice
Kuiper
McMillan
Jennings

I listed five bowling attacks above: I think all five would be odds on to whitewash the four Test teams we will watch tomorrow.

The collapse in quality is astounding.

I think all those teams will be white washed by both audtralia and india. Prove me wrong.

 

[KP From India]

I disagree. I think the quality of Test cricket in the last 10 years has been world class and far better than the 2000s and early 2010s which was the worst period for Test cricket since the 1970s.

2000-2015 would have been a completely forgettable era of cricket if it wasn’t for the great Australian team in the first half and South Africa/England in the early 2010s.

The period 2000-15 saw many iconic test serieses.
2004 BGT, English wins in Pak and SL test series due to Thorpe and bowlers., 2005 Ashes, hard faught Indian Tous to SA 2006 and 2010, Grame Smith's domination in Aus test series. Laxman Mohali classics, 2007 English tour of India, Pakistan tours of India, Indian tours of Pak in 2004 and 2006, all hard faught games, 2014 SL test series win in Eng, hard faught BGT 2008 etc, etc...

I disagree. I think the quality of Test cricket in the last 10 years has been world class and far better than the 2000s and early 2010s which was the worst period for Test cricket since the 1970s.

2000-2015 would have been a completely forgettable era of cricket if it wasn’t for the great Australian team in the first half and South Africa/England in the early 2010s.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Every team hits rock bottom except his favorite team

 

[Junaids]

If world no.1/no.2 ranked sides hit the rock bottom (in tests) think about others?

That’s my whole point!!!!!!

Currently even the stronger teams are rubbish.

It’s an historically weak era.

 

[uppercut]

Really?

Let me take as an example a period when Test cricket was in a relative downturn, the second half of the 1980’s.

Consider these bowling line-ups:

West Indies: Ambrose - Bishop - Walsh - W Benjamin

Pakistan: Imran Khan - Wasim Akram - Saleem Jaffer - Abdul Qadir

South Africa: Donald - De Villiers - Snell - Rice

Australia: Reid - McDermott - Lawson/Alderman - Taylor

England: Foster - Dilley - Botham - Emburey/Edmonds.

That makes five countries with bowling attacks with a depth unimaginable nowadays.

The same applies with batting: England who were a distant fifth could field:

Gooch
Broad
Gatting
Gower
Lamb
Botham

It’s quite astonishing to compare with today. South Africa has almost no batting whatsoever now, whereas then they had:

Cook
Wessels
Pienaar
P Kirsten
Rice
Kuiper
McMillan
Jennings

I listed five bowling attacks above: I think all five would be odds on to whitewash the four Test teams we will watch tomorrow.

The collapse in quality is astounding.

Since you seem to be shy of posting actual footage of cricket from the supposedly "Golden age" of cricket I am going to spare you the blushes and do that for you... here you go watch this high octane cricket( I only made it till Cowdrey was cleaned up by a legstump Half volley lol )

 

[anikrc1]

That’s my whole point!!!!!!

Currently even the stronger teams are rubbish.

It’s an historically weak era.

ir's the strongest era in history.

 

[jnaveen1980]

That’s my whole point!!!!!!

Currently even the stronger teams are rubbish.

It’s an historically weak era.

Because they go through transition? duh? Have you not seen England in the entire 90s, NZ in the entire 90s? West Indies post Ambrose/Walsh? Srilanka for a significant period?

 

[Junaids]

Now that sir @Junaids have said India team hit the rock bottom, I hope that is the case. The only direction one can go from rock bottom is upwards. Also, when India tours England this summer, there should be no expectation and even if India lose 5-0 it will be along the expected lines for a rock bottom team. However, if they somehow manage to win few games or even the series, it will be considered a massive humiliation for England.

I recognise that English may not be your first language, but have you actually read what I have written?

The World Test Champion Aussie team was slaughtered in South Africa five years earlier.

Australia and India are probably both currently in the Top Four teams, just.

But they are much worse than their own teams of a few years ago, and would both be in the bottom 3 of the world at any point from 1955 to 1992.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I recognise that English may not be your first language, but have you actually read what I have written?

The World Test Champion Aussie team was slaughtered in South Africa five years earlier.

Australia and India are probably both currently in the Top Four teams, just.

But they are much worse than their own teams of a few years ago, and would be in the bottom 3 of the world at any point from 1955 to 1992.

That is a ridiculous assessment. Apart from West Indies team in the 80 nobody is comparable with top 3 team in this era. Sure they had a lot of superstars. But there were so many dud players also. India's best openers in that era were Chuahan and Srikkanth lol Sure they acheived significantly high number of draws in that era being unable to bowl sides out. That only shows how weak bowling as in that era.

West Indies played 82 won 43 draw 31.. That is by world's best bowling in that era. Only team to have more wins than draws. No other team won more than draw/loss.

 

[Junaids]

ir's the strongest era in history.

Bumrah is the only current Indian who would have got into the Zimbabwe Test bowling attack at any point from 1983 to 1999.

Not only were Kevin Curran, Eddo Brandes and Heath Streak vastly better pace bowlers than the likes of Siraj and Deep and Reddy, but Traicos was a better spinner too.

 

[Junaids]

That is a ridiculous assessment. Apart from West Indies team in the 80 nobody is comparable with top 3 team in this era. Sure they had a lot of superstars. But there were so many dud players also. India's best openers in that era were Chuahan and Srikkanth lol Sure they acheived significantly high number of draws in that era being unable to bowl sides out. That only shows how weak bowling as in that era.

West Indies played 82 won 43 draw 31.. That is by world's best bowling in that era. Only team to have more wins than draws. No other team won more than draw/loss.

That has never been the benchmark for Test success. It’s about how few series you lose in a decade.

West Indies didn’t lose a series from 1980-81 to 1995. Pakistan lost one series (1-0) between 1984-85 and 1993.

No Indian team in history has shown that ability to turn defeats into draws.

 

[jnaveen1980]

That has never been the benchmark for Test success. It’s about how few series you lose in a decade.

West Indies didn’t lose a series from 1980-81 to 1995. Pakistan lost one series (1-0) between 1984-85 and 1993.

Pakistan couldn't beat a weak Indai in 1989 at home. Drew 0-4. Imagine Manjrekar and 16 year old doing that lol. That is not exactly a world class team in my view.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It's an intriguing era of cricket. It's hard to measure relative strengths across eras without bias. But it's easy to measure competitiveness and one can argue that we are in the most competitive era of cricket.

Teams like Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and India winning in SENAW was unthinkable in the past.

Pakistan has fallen badly without a doubt.

 

[jnaveen1980]

It's an intriguing era of cricket. It's hard to measure relative strengths across eras without bias. But it's easy to measure competitiveness and one can argue that we are in the most competitive era of cricket.

Teams like Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and India winning in SENAW was unthinkable in the past.

Pakistan has fallen badly without a doubt.

Fast bowling has come a very very long way. Taskin is hitting 140k easily. That new kid from BD Rana is hitting 147k easily. 80s, 90s, 00s were mostly trundlers apart from select West indians, couple of pakistan, Australian pacers. Mark wood is hitting 150ks. Also multiple bowlers bowl well at the same for a team. Mnay things have changed to get the 20 wickets needed to win a test match.

 

[Junaids]

Since you seem to be shy of posting actual footage of cricket from the supposedly "Golden age" of cricket I am going to spare you the blushes and do that for you... here you go watch this high octane cricket( I only made it till Cowdrey was cleaned up by a legstump Half volley lol )

The England team which lost 4-1?

That’s your benchmark? How a 42 year old reserve performed?

At a time when the strongest teams were South Africa (best team by a million miles), Australia (who won 4-1, then beat West Indies 5-1 a year later), Pakistan and the West Indies.

So you base your argument on a reserve batsman from the near-bottom England team?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I don't think so, Australia and India haven't hit it yet.

 

[Junaids]

Fast bowling has come a very very long way. Taskin is hitting 140k easily. That new kid from BD Rana is hitting 147k easily. 80s, 90s, 00s were mostly trundlers apart from select West indians, couple of pakistan, Australian pacers. Mark wood is hitting 150ks. Also multiple bowlers bowl well at the same for a team. Mnay things have changed to get the 20 wickets needed to win a test match.

I refer you to the 1975-76 WACA Test.

Using speed cameras accurate to two decimal places (50 times more accurate than current ones), the pace bowlers were measured in-play bowling at:

Thomson 160.45
Roberts 159.49
Holding 150.67 (as a rookie)
Lillee 148.58 (with a cold, measured soon after at 154.8)

It’s a proven scientific fact that modern Test bowlers cannot reach the speeds that their 1970’s predecessors did.

A bit like modern airplanes are slower.

 

[Junaids]

To put my previous post in perspective, in that 1975-76 series we know that both teams each had 2 bowlers bowling quicker than any Australian or Indian has in the current series.

And there were no helmets.

Fielding has got better since then. Tailend batting has got better.

But top order batting and bowling are clearly nowhere near as good as they were then, probably due to huge bats, seamless Kookaburra balls and bland wickets designed to let average batsmen score big runs quickly.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I refer you to the 1975-76 WACA Test.

Using speed cameras accurate to two decimal places (50 times more accurate than current ones), the pace bowlers were measured in-play bowling at:

Thomson 160.45
Roberts 159.49
Holding 150.67 (as a rookie)
Lillee 148.58 (with a cold, measured soon after at 154.8)

It’s a proven scientific fact that modern Test bowlers cannot reach the speeds that their 1970’s predecessors did.

A bit like modern airplanes are slower.

We are talking about sustained pace in real match situation. Not one ball, two balls. Besides speed measurement technology has come a long way. You cannot comapre that technology with that. If you read about how baseball pitching speed measurement accuracy improved over a time you will understand.


No, fast bowling measurements in the 1970s were not considered as accurate as modern measurements due to the lack of advanced technology available at the time; the primary method for measuring speed was often based on radar guns which could be inconsistent and prone to error, especially compared to the sophisticated camera tracking systems used today like Hawk-Eye.

Key points about 70s bowling speed measurements:

• Limited technology:
  Most speed readings relied on basic radar guns which could be affected by factors like weather conditions and positioning.
  
  
• Jeff Thomson example:
  While Jeff Thomson is often cited as one of the fastest bowlers of the era, his recorded speeds were measured with less accurate technology compared to modern standards.
  
  
• Improved accuracy with time:
  The introduction of advanced camera tracking systems like Hawk-Eye has significantly increased the precision of bowling speed measurements in recent years.

Besides you have so many such bowlers coming from every country. Look at O Rourke he was quiet handful right through his spell bowling at 153 kph. ONly question i have about WestIndians were they bowled a lot of noballs and got away. Nobody monitored noballs back then. The same Holding got cartered all over by Gavaskar to score 100 in 94 balls at Delhi. He was whining "Gavaskar scores only on easy wickets". Basically any time he couldn't take a wicket he blamed the wickets. I bet Alzaari Josehp would be quicker than any those WInston davis, Wayne daniel, Sylvster clarke. So stop being a nostalgica merchant lol In modern era they would be cartered around. You need additional skills besides speed.

 

[uppercut]

The England team which lost 4-1?

That’s your benchmark? How a 42 year old reserve performed?

At a time when the strongest teams were South Africa (best team by a million miles), Australia (who won 4-1, then beat West Indies 5-1 a year later), Pakistan and the West Indies.

So you base your argument on a reserve batsman from the near-bottom England team?

might want to read your post were you are crowing about how the quality of cricket was in a relative downturn in the late 80s hence why I picked a series from the 70s ... lets see the excuses to write off the 70s too.

 

[jnaveen1980]

To put my previous post in perspective, in that 1975-76 series we know that both teams each had 2 bowlers bowling quicker than any Australian or Indian has in the current series.

And there were no helmets.

Fielding has got better since then. Tailend batting has got better.

But top order batting and bowling are clearly nowhere near as good as they were then, probably due to huge bats, seamless Kookaburra balls and bland wickets designed to let average batsmen score big runs quickly.

India chased 400 runs agianst that West Indian bowling in 4th innings land won the test ol Then they resorted to ugly body line attack. There was no real skill there.

WI vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 3rd Test at Port of Spain, April 07 - 12, 1976

Get cricket scorecard of 3rd Test, WI vs IND, India tour of West Indies 1975/76 at Queen's Park Oval, Port of Spain, Trinidad dated April 07 - 12, 1976.

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[uppercut]

I refer you to the 1975-76 WACA Test.

Using speed cameras accurate to two decimal places (50 times more accurate than current ones), the pace bowlers were measured in-play bowling at:

Thomson 160.45
Roberts 159.49
Holding 150.67 (as a rookie)
Lillee 148.58 (with a cold, measured soon after at 154.8)

It’s a proven scientific fact that modern Test bowlers cannot reach the speeds that their 1970’s predecessors did.

A bit like modern airplanes are slower.

This has long since been debunked. Can't believe how someone in 2025 can keep pretending that 50yrs ago they had 50x far more accurate cameras than today. If you really Believe in that sort of BS then I think I have finally found a buyer for the Sydney Opera house that I own.

 

[jnaveen1980]

This has long since been debunked. Can't believe how someone in 2025 can keep pretending that 50yrs ago they had 50x far more accurate cameras than today. If you really Believe in that sort of BS then I think I have found a buyer for the Sydney Opera house that I own.

He is a nostalgia merchant. In his world Usain botl is weaker than Jesse owens

 

[jnaveen1980]

I am sure Rod laver would destroy Djokovic, Federer, Nadal because he played 50 plus years back. They must be better.

 

[Ab Fan]

Harry Brooks would barely make it to Bangladesh team of late 90s which had Ashraful and Habibul Bashar. The quality of cricket has gone down by a mile.

Pat Cummins would barely make it to NZ team of 90s where the bowling attack was led by Chris Cairns and Danny Morrison too.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Harry Brooks would barely make it to Bangladesh team of late 90s which had Ashraful and Habibul Bashar. The quality of cricket has gone down by a mile.

Pat Cummins would barely make it to NZ team of 90s where the bowling attack was led by Chris Cairns and Danny Morrison too.

I think OP thinks we will only focus on the obvious super stars of the past while ignoring the likes of Gavin Larsen, Chris Harris, Mohammad Sami, Mark Ramprakash lol

 

[uppercut]

I am sure Rod laver would destroy Djokovic, Federer, Nadal because he played 50 plus years back. They must be better.

Sample this Chappelli on Redpath ... unthinkable today that selectors would expect top players for free!!

------

"Despite being a fierce competitor, Redda was one of the soft-spoken members of our team. Imagine my surprise in the 1974-75 Test against England when I came back into the SCG dressing room after the toss to find ACB secretary Alan Barnes pinned to the dressing-room wall by Redpath.


Barnes had upset all the players when, after our agitation for better pay and conditions, he was quoted in the paper as saying; "Five hundred thousand would play for Australia for nothing." After pinning Barnes to the wall Redpath firmly told him: "Of course 500,000 would play for nothing but they wouldn't be a very good side."

 

[jnaveen1980]

Here is ATG England from the early 90s. Missing straight balls from Kumble. lol Especially watch the dismissal at 1:26 lol

 

[uppercut]

He is a nostalgia Troll merchant. In his world Usain botl is weaker than Jesse owens

Fixed for Accuracy

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Fast bowling has come a very very long way. Taskin is hitting 140k easily. That new kid from BD Rana is hitting 147k easily. 80s, 90s, 00s were mostly trundlers apart from select West indians, couple of pakistan, Australian pacers. Mark wood is hitting 150ks. Also multiple bowlers bowl well at the same for a team. Mnay things have changed to get the 20 wickets needed to win a test match.

Batting has changed. People may perceive it as change in quality. Batsmen seem less confident against swing and seam but more confident against run of the mill bowling.

In modern era there is less technically correct and gritty batsmen and more batsmen ready to risk it with ramps and coming down the wicket.

You can call it a change in quality I guess.

One thing I will agree with the OP is that talent stocks and depth is missing. Looking at some of the players Australia has called up and how their openers are so weak in domestic cricket too is not a good sign

 

[deltexas]

If world no.1/no.2 ranked sides hit the rock bottom (in tests) think about others?

This! This is pretty much the gist.. Aus Ind Eng are and will be the 1, 2 3 test sides with the ranking shifting amongst them atleast for the neat future. Yes, I know SA are in the WTC final, but because of the schedules , they had a easy draw to the final. You can schedule all your tests against Ban, Afg, Zim , WI and easily get to the final. Whereas its always tough for Ind Aus Eng - because they play against each other the most.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Batting has changed. People may perceive it as change in quality. Batsmen seem less confident against swing and seam but more confident against run of the mill bowling.

In modern era there is less technically correct and gritty batsmen and more batsmen ready to risk it with ramps and coming down the wicket.

You can call it a change in quality I guess.

One thing I will agree with the OP is that talent stocks and depth is missing. Looking at some of the players Australia has called up and how their openers are so weak in domestic cricket too is not a good sign

Let me put this way. Examination of batting by bowlers have come a long way. We cannot put purely that down to regression in batsman's quality. Correlation does not imply causation.


For instance opening partnership average in various era

1980s - 35
1990s - 40
2000s - 40
2010s - 35
2020s - 34


So all attacks in the 80s were superior? not necessarily.

Openers against West Indies averaged 24 in the 80s
Openers against NZ 33
Openers against Pakistan 35

Everyone else above 35. Against India openers averaged 45

If you look at 90s

An era where we didn't really have any ATG openers unless we consider Athers, Taylor as ATGs. most teams sucked against openers. Only SOuth Africa 25.38 avge (mosty due to pitches) stood above other teams along with West Indies 31.02 avge. Pakistan 37, India 38.

Basically some teams covered for ineptness of other teams. Superior performance of West Indies in the 80s won't make all the other teams better. All the statistic average from the 80s were benefitted from West Indies. Not other teams.

 

[anikrc1]

Bumrah is the only current Indian who would have got into the Zimbabwe Test bowling attack at any point from 1983 to 1999.

Not only were Kevin Curran, Eddo Brandes and Heath Streak vastly better pace bowlers than the likes of Siraj and Deep and Reddy, but Traicos was a better spinner too.

Marshall is the only west indies pacer who would get place in the current bangladesh linr up

 

[bk19xsa]

Since you seem to be shy of posting actual footage of cricket from the supposedly "Golden age" of cricket I am going to spare you the blushes and do that for you... here you go watch this high octane cricket( I only made it till Cowdrey was cleaned up by a legstump Half volley lol )

No way today's Batsmen are surviving that kind of bowling. Requires balls of steel and tremendous technique only suitable for Test batting aka survival.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

This rivalry is getting heated up day by day... bigger than Ashes now.

 

[uppercut]

No way today's Batsmen are surviving that kind of bowling. Requires balls of steel and tremendous technique only suitable for Test batting aka survival.

Thats right which is why you see most of the batsmen camped on their backfoot which doesn't make for a Pretty batting technique. If these same batsmen were to face modern bowlers who are much faster and exceptional in sorting out players with questionable techniques they would not have such glittering careers.


And also please remember that a helmet doesn't automatically change your technique and make you a run machine by making you magically move you on the front foot.

In my view these are all acts of stupidity from a stupid amateur era, not some measure of batting skills. And quite frankly a borefest that nobody would even bother to watch if they played like that today. Just look at the number of draws!!

 

[Technics 1210]

The rivalry! Lol. Indians actually believe Australia consider India a rival? Naaah, Australia only ever consider England as their rival.

Though I suppose with the IPL, Aussie/Indian players are rivals!

 

[Junaids]

We are talking about sustained pace in real match situation. Not one ball, two balls. Besides speed measurement technology has come a long way. You cannot comapre that technology with that. If you read about how baseball pitching speed measurement accuracy improved over a time you will understand.


No, fast bowling measurements in the 1970s were not considered as accurate as modern measurements due to the lack of advanced technology available at the time; the primary method for measuring speed was often based on radar guns which could be inconsistent and prone to error, especially compared to the sophisticated camera tracking systems used today like Hawk-Eye.

Key points about 70s bowling speed measurements:

• Limited technology:
  Most speed readings relied on basic radar guns which could be affected by factors like weather conditions and positioning.
  
  
• Jeff Thomson example:
  While Jeff Thomson is often cited as one of the fastest bowlers of the era, his recorded speeds were measured with less accurate technology compared to modern standards.
  
  
• Improved accuracy with time:
  The introduction of advanced camera tracking systems like Hawk-Eye has significantly increased the precision of bowling speed measurements in recent years.

Besides you have so many such bowlers coming from every country. Look at O Rourke he was quiet handful right through his spell bowling at 153 kph. ONly question i have about WestIndians were they bowled a lot of noballs and got away. Nobody monitored noballs back then. The same Holding got cartered all over by Gavaskar to score 100 in 94 balls at Delhi. He was whining "Gavaskar scores only on easy wickets". Basically any time he couldn't take a wicket he blamed the wickets. I bet Alzaari Josehp would be quicker than any those WInston davis, Wayne daniel, Sylvster clarke. So stop being a nostalgica merchant lol In modern era they would be cartered around. You need additional skills besides speed.

You really are showcasing your ignorance here.

Modern cricket speed cameras are used because they are cheap and portable, but they take only 10 frames per second.

The Photo-Sonics equipment used in 1975-76 is still the best (and most expensive) projectile measuring equipment you can get. And it was set at 500 frames per second - so it is demonstrably 50 times as precise as modern speed cameras.

Meet the Photo-Sonics (ActionMaster) Ultramax High Speed 500 Fps Film Camera - IMDb

IMDb, the world's most popular and authoritative source for movie, TV and celebrity content.

m.imdb.com

 

[Junaids]

India chased 400 runs agianst that West Indian bowling in 4th innings land won the test ol Then they resorted to ugly body line attack. There was no real skill there.

WI vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 3rd Test at Port of Spain, April 07 - 12, 1976

Get cricket scorecard of 3rd Test, WI vs IND, India tour of West Indies 1975/76 at Queen's Park Oval, Port of Spain, Trinidad dated April 07 - 12, 1976.

www.espncricinfo.com

What on earth are you talking about?

That West Indies team missed the injured Roberts and Garner and Croft weren’t yet in it.

A rookie Holding was the only bowler above military medium pace.

This pre-pace attack West Indies had lost at home to Australia and England thanks to Max Walker and Tony Greig’s bowling. India’s victory meant nothing.

 

[Junaids]

This has long since been debunked. Can't believe how someone in 2025 can keep pretending that 50yrs ago they had 50x far more accurate cameras than today. If you really Believe in that sort of BS then I think I have finally found a buyer for the Sydney Opera house that I own.

Do you also think that the Boeing 787 is faster than Concorde?

There is actually film from 1975-76. It’s not a claim that the bowling was faster than now - it’s a proven fact, and anyone who disputes the actual video evidence simply discredits himself as biased.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I don't understand your fascination with age of the players.

 

[uppercut]

Do you also think that the Boeing 787 is faster than Concorde?

It was not built to be faster !! Do you really think the aeronautical engineering community magically lost the know how to build faster planes ? Ridiculous arguments.

There is actually film from 1975-76. It’s not a claim that the bowling was faster than now - it’s a proven fact, and anyone who disputes the actual video evidence simply discredits himself as biased.

Let see the evidence and if most of your previous mind numbing debates with others are any indication you will quietly slip away from this debate.

And by evidence I mean authentic links ( as opposed to your mind numbing it is very easy for me to respond likewise )

Here is a sample of what NOT to do.



You: XYZ Bowler from 197x bowled at 165KPH and its a proven fact.
Me: Lets see the evidence
You: Silence

This is not a meaningful debate. This is plain old dumass village idiot level discussion.

 

[Junaids]

It was not built to be faster !! Do you really think the aeronautical engineering community magically lost the know how to build faster planes ? Ridiculous arguments.





Let see the evidence and if most of your previous mind numbing debates with others are any indication you will quietly slip away from this debate.

And by evidence I mean authentic links ( as opposed to your mind numbing it is very easy for me to respond likewise )

Here is a sample of what NOT to do.



You: XYZ Bowler from 197x bowled at 165KPH and its a proven fact.
Me: Lets see the evidence
You: Silence

This is not a meaningful debate. This is plain old dumass village idiot level discussion.

I’ve shown you the proof.

The footage from 1975-76 and the recorded speeds measured to fifty times more accurate levels than modern recordings, which use cheap, portable, imprecise cameras.

 

[uppercut]

BTW Are we done on the Camera , Concorde speed discussion or you still not convinced ?

I’ve shown you the proof.

No you have not.

The footage from 1975-76 and the recorded speeds measured to fifty times more accurate levels than modern recordings, which use cheap, portable, imprecise cameras.

There is no independent verification these nor do the subsequent measurements a year or two later validate these findings. Go read posts from the past where other posters have owned you comprehensively on that.

Your one and only one trick is to shout and shout louder. Two can play that game very easily.

 

[uppercut]

The rivalry! Lol. Indians actually believe Australia consider India a rival? Naaah, Australia only ever consider England as their rival.

I see ...perhaps it was the Evil Martians that invaded Australia to troll by artificially racking up big numbers at most grounds ?

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

I see ...perhaps it was the Evil Martians that invaded Australia to troll by artificially racking up big numbers at most grounds ?

Australia grounds had big numbers because of Indian spectators you cannot call these people evil martians.

Because of Indian fans the cricket is making so much progress.

 

[big_gamer007]

The rivalry! Lol. Indians actually believe Australia consider India a rival? Naaah, Australia only ever consider England as their rival.

Though I suppose with the IPL, Aussie/Indian players are rivals!

Spoken like a clueless person with lack of critical thinking and most likely low IQ.

One could have understood if you meant Australian fans don’t consider it a rivalry, however, for Australian players they consider India a rivalry as can be seen from the intensity this series is played, the one in India when Australians mocked Kohlis shoulder was one of the highest intensity series of 2000s after 2005 Ashes.

 

[big_gamer007]

I see ...perhaps it was the Evil Martians that invaded Australia to troll by artificially racking up big numbers at most grounds ?

I went for the MCG test, second day when there were around 85k spectators, and I was pleasantly surprised to see around 40-45% white Aussies, if not more.

Even in my gym quite a lot of white Aussies are following the series and actually are glued to the TV between their rest sets.

 

[jnaveen1980]

You really are showcasing your ignorance here.

Modern cricket speed cameras are used because they are cheap and portable, but they take only 10 frames per second.

The Photo-Sonics equipment used in 1975-76 is still the best (and most expensive) projectile measuring equipment you can get. And it was set at 500 frames per second - so it is demonstrably 50 times as precise as modern speed cameras.

Meet the Photo-Sonics (ActionMaster) Ultramax High Speed 500 Fps Film Camera - IMDb

IMDb, the world's most popular and authoritative source for movie, TV and celebrity content.

m.imdb.com

No lol Even for Baseball they came up with a radar gun measurement only 1973 which was wildly inaccurate. This is like trying to convince people IBM PC from the 80s is faster than intel 14th gen processor. I understand fetish for nostalgia. But your fetish for nostalgic technology is next level

 

[big_gamer007]

I do agree somewhat with OP, most of the teams are currently in transition phase so the quality of test cricket isn’t the best.

However, transition periods happen for teams throughout history, it’s just that this might be the first time most teams are going through a transition phase at the same time.

Once the transition is completed and baton handed over to next generation the quality will improve again. That’s how cycle works in any sports.

 

[jnaveen1980]

What on earth are you talking about?

That West Indies team missed the injured Roberts and Garner and Croft weren’t yet in it.

A rookie Holding was the only bowler above military medium pace.

This pre-pace attack West Indies had lost at home to Australia and England thanks to Max Walker and Tony Greig’s bowling. India’s victory meant nothing.

Like this match where Andy ROberts played?

WI vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 2nd Test at Port of Spain, March 24 - 29, 1976

Get cricket scorecard of 2nd Test, WI vs IND, India tour of West Indies 1975/76 at Queen's Park Oval, Port of Spain, Trinidad dated March 24 - 29, 1976.

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[big_gamer007]

Team India has some of the greatest players in its history in the squad.

We have the world's greatest fast bowler, world's greatest spin all rounder, world's greatest off spinner ( now retired) and one of the most successful batsmen in overseas conditions in the history of cricket. It is a strong side that can go head to head with any side in the history of the game.

I will not comment on the relative strengths and weakness of other countries. It is the business of their fans and boards to hold them under account. What I will say is that test cricket is only surviving because of the guidance and support of the BCCI. Without us, test cricket worldwide will be finished.

That’s a very poor argument which shows lack of understanding.

You are not taking conditions, current form, age etc into account while making your argument and just based it on historical data.
That’s how newbies without any knowledge make posts.

Apart from Bumrah (best bowler in the world) none of your points stand in 2024/25.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I do agree somewhat with OP, most of the teams are currently in transition phase so the quality of test cricket isn’t the best.

However, transition periods happen for teams throughout history, it’s just that this might be the first time most teams are going through a transition phase at the same time.

Once the transition is completed and baton handed over to next generation the quality will improve again. That’s how cycle works in any sports.

West Indies hardly had any competition in the 80s. All teams were weak back then. THat is why they beat everyone. Once their fairy tale run ended they could never regain that same status again. They went through transition in the 90s. NZ/England/India/Australia were all going through transition in the 90s. One of the weakest era in cricket. Real low quality cricket was on offer.

 

[big_gamer007]

West Indies hardly had any competition in the 80s. All teams were weak back then. THat is why they beat everyone. Once their fairy tale run ended they could never regain that same status again. They went through transition in the 90s. NZ/England/India/Australia were all going through transition in the 90s. One of the weakest era in cricket. Real low quality cricket was on offer.

You have to look at quality from perspective of that time period and not modern time period.

In 2025 a player like Bradman won’t get into a college team. But that doesn’t mean he is not the greatest cricketer of all time.

WI in 80s were so far ahead of their time and any other team quality wise that they alone make that era better than today’s era.

 

[jnaveen1980]

You have to look at quality from perspective of that time period and not modern time period.

In 2025 a player like Bradman won’t get into a college team. But that doesn’t mean he is not the greatest cricketer of all time.

WI in 80s were so far ahead of their time and any other team quality wise that they alone make that era better than today’s era.

yes. Agreed. But in current era teams are more or less equal in specific conditions. Back then gap was massive between teams.