How remarkable has been India's transformation as a cricket nation from 1999-2023 in World Cups?

[Technics 1210]

Pakistani fans ..........

This thread is about Indian cricket.

Your team were beaten at home in a WC final, and no matter how you spin it, you will never cope with the humiliating loss.

The loss will be etched in your memory forever, more so, because WCs are the pinnacle of any sport.

 

[Technics 1210]

Another point I want to mention is which one do most fans prefer? An ODI World Cup final or an important Test?

A World Cup final can have 100,000 fans like we saw in Ahmedabad. Will we see the same figure for an important test? I highly doubt (probably not even close).

2015 WC final had an attendance of 93,000+. I don't see any Test beating that.

Over a BILLION cricket fans worldwide witnessed the humiliation of India. The humiliation was headline news in every sport section around the world. Dwarfs fluke Test series wins.

 

[Buffet]

Another point I want to mention is which one do most fans prefer? An ODI World Cup final or an important Test?

A World Cup final can have 100,000 fans like we saw in Ahmedabad. Will we see the same figure for an important test? I highly doubt (probably not even close).

2015 WC final had an attendance of 93,000+.

Most fans will prefer T20 but it hardly means anything more than entertainment. It has also to do with time commitment, but that has nothing to do with how difficult T20 is when compared to some tough test series.

ODI is much simpler to follow for most fans after T20 so more fans will follow it even if they understand 10% nuance.

Test cricket takes 5 days so obviously it's going to be less fan's following. But having a fan's following has very little to with how difficult one is when compared to others.

In future, we may end up with only T20, but T20 eliminates lots of skills required for Test or even ODI format. Popularity does not mean difficulty. I was only giving how I rate it and not how popular one is vs another.

 

[topspin]

India, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka, West Indies, south Africa are 5-10 in no particular order

Are you actually serious?

 

[saqib.rai]

Are you actually serious?

I would have put them below West Indies and Sri Lanka as well
As both these countries have an ICC title in the past 10 years and India has ZERO

But then India has done well in home tests by making tempered pitches. So have a better test record

So couldnt really choose between India, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, West Indies, Sri Lanka and South Africa for positions 5-10

 

[Hitman]

I would have put them below West Indies and Sri Lanka as well
As both these countries have an ICC title in the past 10 years and India has ZERO

But then India has done well in home tests by making tempered pitches. So have a better test record

So couldnt really choose between India, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, West Indies, Sri Lanka and South Africa for positions 5-10

So India was better than West Indies and Pakistan in the 1980's since we won the 1983 WC and the 1985 B&H World Championship of Cricket, while West Indies and Pakistan won no ICC titles in that decade? Always said that Imran Khan and his team was overrated by Pakistanis.

 

[saqib.rai]

So India was better than West Indies and Pakistan in the 1980's since we won the 1983 WC and the 1985 B&H World Championship of Cricket, while West Indies and Pakistan won no ICC titles in that decade? Always said that Imran Khan and his team was overrated by Pakistanis.

Sir please understand that during that time there was an ICC tournament every 4 years
So a decade would have only 2 ICC tournaments

Bilaterals used to matter. ALOT

Now we have an ICC tournament EVERY YEAR. bilateral cricket is not relevant anymore with key players resting

There is no justification for India not winning a SINGLE ICC tournament in 10 years and you hell bent on arguing that India is the most dominant cricket team

 

[Statpadder Inc]

Over a BILLION cricket fans worldwide witnessed the humiliation of India. The humiliation was headline news in every sport section around the world. Dwarfs fluke Test series wins.

Lol you can't fluke 2 test series wins in a row in a place that no Asian team ever won in before. But what would you know about winning in Australia, the last your pathetic team won a match there was back when javed miandad was still playing lol. Start praying to God that you miraculously manage to draw a match there this time

 

[uppercut]

In 20 years time, no one will remember how India won a Test series in Australia, but everyone will remember how Australia humiliated India in an ODI WC final in 2023, heck, Indians still remember Ponting’s century in the 2003 WC final, that’s how important and prominent ODI WCs are.

Thats just not true at all...

Most Aussie cricket fan still remembers the hammerings from the West Indian sides in the 80s.

 

[Hitman]

Thats just not true at all...

Most Aussie cricket fan still remembers the hammerings from the West Indian sides in the 80s.

They still fondly remember their Test series victory against West Indies at home in 1976. The infamous series after which Viv had to visit a shrine. Lillee and Thompson created havoc on their opposition that series. But then again, no point in speaking of such high quality cricket to teams that are still looking to draw a Test match in Australia since 1999.

 

[Ab Fan]

Undoubtedly it has been remarkable.

India have been the second best team in cricket after Australia since the turn of millennium.

 

[Mamoon]

Sir please understand that during that time there was an ICC tournament every 4 years
So a decade would have only 2 ICC tournaments

Bilaterals used to matter. ALOT

Now we have an ICC tournament EVERY YEAR. bilateral cricket is not relevant anymore with key players resting

There is no justification for India not winning a SINGLE ICC tournament in 10 years and you hell bent on arguing that India is the most dominant cricket team

I hope you are trolling when you made the absurd claim that Pakistan had a better decade than India and that India’s decade was no better than Sri Lanka, West Indies, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

If it was trolling it was excellent trolling but if you were serious, then we have some serious problems and you should seek help.

Regarding the frequency of ICC tournaments, please understand that higher frequency devalues tournaments. The ODI World Cup is still prestigious because it happens every 4 years and most players only get a couple of shots at winning it.

If it were to happen every year or every two years, it will lose significance. The less frequent tournaments, the more they become valuable because you don’t get many opportunities to make amends.

Therefore, using your logic, any team that didn’t win an ICC trophy in the 1980s cannot be considered as a successful team.

Therefore, Imran and Miandad’s Pakistan were failures and completely outclassed by Kapil and Shastri’s India who won two tournaments.

 

[saqib.rai]

I hope you are trolling when you made the absurd claim that Pakistan had a better decade than India and that India’s decade was no better than Sri Lanka, West Indies, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

If it was trolling it was excellent trolling but if you were serious, then we have some serious problems and you should seek help.

Regarding the frequency of ICC tournaments, please understand that higher frequency devalues tournaments. The ODI World Cup is still prestigious because it happens every 4 years and most players only get a couple of shots at winning it.

If it were to happen every year or every two years, it will lose significance. The less frequent tournaments, the more they become valuable because you don’t get many opportunities to make amends.

Therefore, using your logic, any team that didn’t win an ICC trophy in the 1980s cannot be considered as a successful team.

Therefore, Imran and Miandad’s Pakistan were failures and completely outclassed by Kapil and Shastri’s India who won two tournaments.

see you defined your barometers for success. However many people like myself value ICC tournaments much more than test and bilateral cricket. Even if I say we value them equally

50% is winning ICC tournaments
50% is doing well in bilaterals/ranking


Pakistan won the Champions Trophy- India didn't win a SINGLE ICC event in the last 10 years
Which makes us ahead of them

Pakistan was number 1 in t20 for the longest period of time in the past 10 years. Won 12 or 13 consecutive series
Reached number 1 in ODI. Won away series in South Africa
Reached number 1 in Tests without playing ANY HOME MATCHES. Whitewashed Australia and England in the UAE

STILL
I accept that ranking/bilateral cricket wise India had a BETTER decade

However, if you consider that we won an ICC tournament and they didn't- we would overtake them

And coming to the second point

If there were 10 ICC tournaments in the 80s and Pakistan and West Indies had not won a SINGLE tournament then yes,
They would be considered failures

However, that time the frequency of ICC tournaments was less which made bilateral cricket MORE RELEVANT which Pakistan and West Indies dominated

Even till 2010, bilateral cricket had relevance. Remember the epic Pakistan-South Africa series in 2010 and how nervous everyone was during those matches
Nowadays, only India and Indian fans lik yourself have time to watch useless bilaterals. The world doesn't

 

[Mamoon]

see you defined your barometers for success. However many people like myself value ICC tournaments much more than test and bilateral cricket. Even if I say we value them equally

50% is winning ICC tournaments
50% is doing well in bilaterals/ranking


Pakistan won the Champions Trophy- India didn't win a SINGLE ICC event in the last 10 years
Which makes us ahead of them

Pakistan was number 1 in t20 for the longest period of time in the past 10 years. Won 12 or 13 consecutive series
Reached number 1 in ODI. Won away series in South Africa
Reached number 1 in Tests without playing ANY HOME MATCHES. Whitewashed Australia and England in the UAE

STILL
I accept that ranking/bilateral cricket wise India had a BETTER decade

However, if you consider that we won an ICC tournament and they didn't- we would overtake them

And coming to the second point

If there were 10 ICC tournaments in the 80s and Pakistan and West Indies had not won a SINGLE tournament then yes,
They would be considered failures

However, that time the frequency of ICC tournaments was less which made bilateral cricket MORE RELEVANT which Pakistan and West Indies dominated

Even till 2010, bilateral cricket had relevance. Remember the epic Pakistan-South Africa series in 2010 and how nervous everyone was during those matches
Nowadays, only India and Indian fans lik yourself have time to watch useless bilaterals. The world doesn't

Pakistan’s number 1 ranking in T20Is was as fake as the number 1 ranking in ODIs this year. It was built on the back of beating B and C teams.

In 2018-19, teams are focused on ODIs because it was the ODI World Cup season and key players were frequently rested for T20Is. Pakistan was the only team that played its best players in every T20I series.

If there was a T20 World Cup in that period, Pakistan would have been exposed just like they were exposed in ODIs in this year’s World Cup.

Furthermore, not playing Tests in Pakistan is the best thing that happened to Pakistan along with not bilateral cricket with India.

The slow wickets of UAE were perfect for Pakistan. The likes of Australia, South Africa, England and New Zealand would have beaten Pakistan in Pakistan in the 2010s just like Australia and England have in the 2020s.

As far as number Test 1 ranking is concerned, Pakistan couldn’t even hold onto the spot for more than three weeks while India were number 1 for years and years.

 

[saqib.rai]

Pakistan’s number 1 ranking in T20Is was as fake as the number 1 ranking in ODIs this year. It was built on the back of beating B and C teams.

In 2018-19, teams are focused on ODIs because it was the ODI World Cup season and key players were frequently rested for T20Is. Pakistan was the only team that played its best players in every T20I series.

If there was a T20 World Cup in that period, Pakistan would have been exposed just like they were exposed in ODIs in this year’s World Cup.

Furthermore, not playing Tests in Pakistan is the best thing that happened to Pakistan along with not bilateral cricket with India.

The slow wickets of UAE were perfect for Pakistan. The likes of Australia, South Africa, England and New Zealand would have beaten Pakistan in Pakistan in the 2010s just like Australia and England have in the 2020s.

As far as number Test 1 ranking is concerned, Pakistan couldn’t even hold onto the spot for more than three weeks while India were number 1 for years and years.

Let's do this by analyzing every tournament one by one and then ending the debate

The period of Indian "dominance" that you quote is 2015 to 2023

2015 WC- had 3 good teams apart from Pakistan and India
Both Pakistan and India didn't play New Zealand
Both of us beat South Africa
Both of us lost to Australia
So TIE

2016 t20 WC- India were better
India 1- Pakistan 0

2017 CT- We thrashed them by 180 runs in the final
India 1- Pakistan 1

2019 WC- we beat both the finalists- England and New Zealand
India lost to both these teams in its matches
However, India topped the group stage
So tie
India 1- Pakistan 1

2021 t20 WC
We beat them by 10 wickets. We topped the group
They couldn't even qualify for semis
India 1- Pakistan 2

2022 t20 WC
We lost to them in questionable fashion. The no ball debate still remains
We beat South Africa, they lost to South Africa which was the only other decent team in our group
They lost to England by 10 wickets, we gave England a tough fight
We were better
India 1- Pakistan 3

2023 WC
India were much better
India 2- Pakistan 3
(Keep this number in mind, would be used below)

WE HAVE A BETTER TOURNAMENT RECORD AS I HAVE PROVEN

Then you would AGREE that ODI and t20 bilaterals are irrelevant as teams rest their best players so wouldn't include them in our argument

Now TEST CRICKET
Both Pakistan and India are equally pathetic when touring away

India didn't win a single series in this time period in England and South Africa. Toured Both these countries twice. India got WHITEWASHED in New Zealand
Beat a depleted Australian side in 2018

But yes, won in Australia in 2020-21

So the
India 2- Pakistan 3
Becomes
India 3- Pakistan 3

India have a MUCH BETTER HOME test record. Which frankly, makes me jealous. But many critics argue that those matches take place on doctored pitches.
BUT its effective which is what matters

However, we were just like them when we played in the UAE. Whitewashed both England and Australia

We even beat a good South Africa team in 2021 in Pakistan. But then Ramiz Raja happened

So I wouldn't really blame our players and the cricketing ecosystem. It was just one man who destroyed our best chance of reaching the WTC final

So now
India 4- Pakistan 3

I change my stance after doing this exercise
They have been slightly better than us in the mentioned period.
SLIGHTLY

 

[Mamoon]

Let's do this by analyzing every tournament one by one and then ending the debate

The period of Indian "dominance" that you quote is 2015 to 2023

2015 WC- had 3 good teams apart from Pakistan and India
Both Pakistan and India didn't play New Zealand
Both of us beat South Africa
Both of us lost to Australia
So TIE

2016 t20 WC- India were better
India 1- Pakistan 0

2017 CT- We thrashed them by 180 runs in the final
India 1- Pakistan 1

2019 WC- we beat both the finalists- England and New Zealand
India lost to both these teams in its matches
However, India topped the group stage
So tie
India 1- Pakistan 1

2021 t20 WC
We beat them by 10 wickets. We topped the group
They couldn't even qualify for semis
India 1- Pakistan 2

2022 t20 WC
We lost to them in questionable fashion. The no ball debate still remains
We beat South Africa, they lost to South Africa which was the only other decent team in our group
They lost to England by 10 wickets, we gave England a tough fight
We were better
India 1- Pakistan 3

2023 WC
India were much better
India 2- Pakistan 3
(Keep this number in mind, would be used below)

WE HAVE A BETTER TOURNAMENT RECORD AS I HAVE PROVEN

Then you would AGREE that ODI and t20 bilaterals are irrelevant as teams rest their best players so wouldn't include them in our argument

Now TEST CRICKET
Both Pakistan and India are equally pathetic when touring away

India didn't win a single series in this time period in England and South Africa. Toured Both these countries twice. India got WHITEWASHED in New Zealand
Beat a depleted Australian side in 2018

But yes, won in Australia in 2020-21

So the
India 2- Pakistan 3
Becomes
India 3- Pakistan 3

India have a MUCH BETTER HOME test record. Which frankly, makes me jealous. But many critics argue that those matches take place on doctored pitches.
BUT its effective which is what matters

However, we were just like them when we played in the UAE. Whitewashed both England and Australia

We even beat a good South Africa team in 2021 in Pakistan. But then Ramiz Raja happened

So I wouldn't really blame our players and the cricketing ecosystem. It was just one man who destroyed our best chance of reaching the WTC final

So now
India 4- Pakistan 3

I change my stance after doing this exercise
They have been slightly better than us in the mentioned period.
SLIGHTLY

2015 World Cup: India made the semifinals, Pakistan were eliminated in the quarterfinals. The winner was clearly India.

2016 T20 World Cup: India made the semifinals, Pakistan were eliminated in the group stage. The winner was clearly India.

2017 Champions Trophy: Pakistan won the tournament so of course Pakistan was the winner.

2019 World Cup: India made the semifinals, Pakistan were eliminated in the group and had the third worst NRR. The winner was clearly India.

2021 T20 World Cup: Pakistan made the semifinals, India were eliminated in the group stage. The winner was Pakistan.

2022 T20 World Cup: Pakistan made the final, India lost the semifinal. The winner was Pakistan

2023 World Cup: no explanation needed - the winner is India

India were clearly better than Pakistan in all three ODI World Cups which is the premier, flagship trophy in cricket.

In addition to this, India also made the two WTC Finals while Pakistan was nowhere near.

So in total, in the 9 tournaments, India were better than Pakistan in 6 of those tournaments.

India were better than Pakistan in all ODI World Cups and WTC Championships.

Pakistan had better tournaments on three occasions only (Champions Trophy 2017, WT20 2021 and 2022). They are all B class tournaments.

Moreover, India and Pakistan cannot be “equally pathetic when touring away” when India won two Test series in Australia while Pakistan hasn’t won a single series outside Asia in this period except beating a poor WI in 2017.

Overall, when you consider each and everything, India has comfortably outclassed Pakistan in all formats which is not surprising because they have been a much better team in all facets of the game and will continue to be better in the future.

 

[saqib.rai]

2015 World Cup: India made the semifinals, Pakistan were eliminated in the quarterfinals. The winner was clearly India.

2016 T20 World Cup: India made the semifinals, Pakistan were eliminated in the group stage. The winner was clearly India.

2017 Champions Trophy: Pakistan won the tournament so of course Pakistan was the winner.

2019 World Cup: India made the semifinals, Pakistan were eliminated in the group and had the third worst NRR. The winner was clearly India.

2021 T20 World Cup: Pakistan made the semifinals, India were eliminated in the group stage. The winner was Pakistan.

2022 T20 World Cup: Pakistan made the final, India lost the semifinal. The winner was Pakistan

2023 World Cup: no explanation needed - the winner is India

India were clearly better than Pakistan in all three ODI World Cups which is the premier, flagship trophy in cricket.

In addition to this, India also made the two WTC Finals while Pakistan was nowhere near.

So in total, in the 9 tournaments, India were better than Pakistan in 6 of those tournaments.

India were better than Pakistan in all ODI World Cups and WTC Championships.

Pakistan had better tournaments on three occasions only (Champions Trophy 2017, WT20 2021 and 2022). They are all B class tournaments.

Moreover, India and Pakistan cannot be “equally pathetic when touring away” when India won two Test series in Australia while Pakistan hasn’t won a single series outside Asia in this period except beating a poor WI in 2017.

Overall, when you consider each and everything, India has comfortably outclassed Pakistan in all formats which is not surprising because they have been a much better team in all facets of the game and will continue to be better in the future.

You cannot analyze tournaments like this. It's unfair
Even then its 4-3 to India excluding WTC

Bangladesh made the semis in 2017 CT. Were they better than Australia, South Africa in that tournament that didn't?
Rain favored Bangladesh and played spoil sports for Australia and South Africa

2015 WC- was a tie
Both of us beat South Africa
Both didn't play New Zealand
Both lost to Australia

Ask any neutral person and he/she would tell you it's a TIE

If India had played Australia in quarterfinals and we would have played Bangladesh, then they would have been eliminated in quarterfinals and we would have made semis

2019 WC
We beat both finalists- Eng and NZ
India lost to both Those teams
We didn't make semis as our match against a weak team got washed out

Ask any neutral and he/she would tell you it's a TIE

So your India 4- Pakistan 3
Becomes India 2- Pakistan 3

in 9 years, to prove Indian 'dominance' you can only quote 2 away series

One against a DEPLETED Australian team which doesn't count

One Fluke win. Otherwise 36 all out level tha
But would give a point equal to an ICC tournament for that 2020-21 series

So that
India 2- Pakistan 3
Becomes India 3- Pakistan 3

We drew 2-2 in England, they lost 4-1 two years later. So stop with this argument of them being better in away tests

And I agree, they are FAR SUPERIOR in HOME TESTS
But that's not because of our players- it's because of an administrative mistake of not replicating UAE pitches in Pakistan for test matches

Once we do that, we would start dominating HOME TESTS as well like we used to do in the UAE

p.s. the way India celebrated after 2007 t20 WC and 2013 CT wins
Doesn't look like India considers them B class tournaments

Stop degrading our team. It's YOUR team too.
I have with facts proven that even with far less finances, toxic fans, toxic media, toxic ex-cricketers we are just SLIGHTLY behind them in the past decade

Once we sort out our pitches for test matches, we would be equal or better than them

 

[Mamoon]

You cannot analyze tournaments like this. It's unfair
Even then its 4-3 to India excluding WTC

Bangladesh made the semis in 2017 CT. Were they better than Australia, South Africa in that tournament that didn't?
Rain favored Bangladesh and played spoil sports for Australia and South Africa

2015 WC- was a tie
Both of us beat South Africa
Both didn't play New Zealand
Both lost to Australia

Ask any neutral person and he/she would tell you it's a TIE

If India had played Australia in quarterfinals and we would have played Bangladesh, then they would have been eliminated in quarterfinals and we would have made semis

2019 WC
We beat both finalists- Eng and NZ
India lost to both Those teams
We didn't make semis as our match against a weak team got washed out

Ask any neutral and he/she would tell you it's a TIE

So your India 4- Pakistan 3
Becomes India 2- Pakistan 3

in 9 years, to prove Indian 'dominance' you can only quote 2 away series

One against a DEPLETED Australian team which doesn't count

One Fluke win. Otherwise 36 all out level tha
But would give a point equal to an ICC tournament for that 2020-21 series

So that
India 2- Pakistan 3
Becomes India 3- Pakistan 3

We drew 2-2 in England, they lost 4-1 two years later. So stop with this argument of them being better in away tests

And I agree, they are FAR SUPERIOR in HOME TESTS
But that's not because of our players- it's because of an administrative mistake of not replicating UAE pitches in Pakistan for test matches

Once we do that, we would start dominating HOME TESTS as well like we used to do in the UAE

p.s. the way India celebrated after 2007 t20 WC and 2013 CT wins
Doesn't look like India considers them B class tournaments

Stop degrading our team. It's YOUR team too.
I have with facts proven that even with far less finances, toxic fans, toxic media, toxic ex-cricketers we are just SLIGHTLY behind them in the past decade

Once we sort out our pitches for test matches, we would be equal or better than them

Ask any neutral person and he would tell you that India vs Pakistan over the last 10 years isn’t even a comparison.

India is a far, far better team than Pakistan in all formats. Hardly 1-2 Pakistani players would get into a combined Pakistan-India team.

I don’t need to degrade Pakistan; they take care of that themselves. Absolutely nonsense team.

 

[Buffet]

India vs Pakistan over the last 10 years isn’t even a comparison.

Pakistan is solidly the 6th best performing team in Test and ODI format in the last 10 years.

W/L gap between 6th and 7th is less than 5th and 6th. I suspect it's not going to change in near future. I think top 5 teams will keep the gap and even widen it in future against the bottom 5 teams.

 

[Technics 1210]

Pakistan is solidly the 6th best performing team in Test and ODI format in the last 10 years.

W/L gap between 6th and 7th is less than 5th and 6th. I suspect it's not going to change in near future. I think top 5 teams will keep the gap and even widen it in future against the bottom 5 teams.

View attachment 139462View attachment 139463

Irrelevant stats.

Despite India topping the ODI stats between 2013 and 2023, India have no ICC trophies to show for it.

Pakistan, since you highlighted them, were ranked 7th or 8th when beating India who were ranked 1st in the CT17.

Stats only tell half the picture. While India’s W/L ratio might be tops, what the stats do not show is that India lost 4 knock out games in the ODI WC from 2013 to 2023, while Australia only lost 1 KO WC game in the same period.

This goes back to the fact that it is not the number of runs scored or wickets taken that matter, it is when the runs are scored and when the wickets are taken that matter.

 

[Buffet]

Irrelevant stats.

Despite India topping the ODI stats between 2013 and 2023, India have no ICC trophies to show for it.

Pakistan, since you highlighted them, were ranked 7th or 8th when beating India who were ranked 1st in the CT17.

Stats only tell half the picture. While India’s W/L ratio might be tops, what the stats do not show is that India lost 4 knock out games in the ODI WC from 2015 to 2013, while Australia only lost 1 KO WC game in the same period.

This goes back to the fact that it is not the number of runs scored or wickets taken that matter, it is when the runs are scored and when the wickets are taken that matter.

Nah, it's very relevant stats to see.

Top 5 and bottom 5 teams are going to have bigger gap in future based on on how things are going. There is reason that Pakistan last drew a test in Aus almost 3 decades back and during those times Pakistan was top 3 in W/L. It simply shows how good the teams are in general.

Pakistan's drop from top 3 in W/L in 90s to 6 now shows a deterioration specially when decade long period is taken as sample size. Based on Pakistan's population and popularity of cricket , it's a bad outcome to see Pakistan doing so poorly to drop to 6th rank in W/L.

Yes, Pakistan or may be WI may win something but if you are hanging around 8th in W/L in long periods like 10 years ,when hardly 8-10 teams plays , then it's just a alarming situation for country like Pakistan.

 

[sweep_shot]

Nah, it's very relevant stats to see.

I believe ODI stats need to be filtered further to be meaningful. It is because many teams don't play their full teams during bilateral ODI games.

I would remove all JAMODI stats and just include the stats from ICC tournaments to get a clearer picture.

 

[Technics 1210]

Nah, it's very relevant stats to see.

Top 5 and bottom 5 teams are going to have bigger gap in future based on on how things are going. There is reason that Pakistan last drew a test in Aus almost 3 decades back and during those times Pakistan was top 3 in W/L. It simply shows how good the teams are in general.

Pakistan's drop from top 3 in W/L in 90s to 6 now shows a deterioration specially when decade long period is taken as sample size. Based on Pakistan's population and popularity of cricket , it's a bad outcome to see Pakistan doing so poorly to drop to 6th rank in W/L.

Yes, Pakistan or may be WI may win something but if you are hanging around 8th in W/L in long periods like 10 years ,when hardly 8-10 teams plays , then it's just a alarming situation for country like Pakistan.

What is more alarming is a team in the top 3 over 10 years with no silverware to show for it.

 

[Buffet]

Look at it this way.

ODI WC semi final appearance in the last 20 years,


Aus - 5 times
NZ - 5 times
Ind - 5 times


SA - 3 times


Eng 1 times
Kenya 1 times
Pakistan 1 times


Eng ODI team used to be poor and it's reflected in this stat, but they have turn it around. I suspect they will make it to semis more often in future. Pakistan needs to do something similar specially is every team is going to paly every team in WC then consistent teams are going to make semis.

 

[Technics 1210]

Why Semi Finals?

Pakistan has a better W/L in ICC finals in the past 20 years compared to India.

 

[Buffet]

What is more alarming is a team in the top 3 over 10 years with no silverware to show for it.

Yes it's alarming, but I would see slipping to 6-7 W/L over such a long time for a top tier country alarming as well. It's danger of going WI ways. WI team deteriorated a lot from their heydays and Pakistan is taking a similar route. Given population and popularity of cricket, I doubt it will deteriorate that much, but it's a very huge drop for country like Pakistan. It needs to be reversed.

 

[saqib.rai]

Pakistan is solidly the 6th best performing team in Test and ODI format in the last 10 years.

W/L gap between 6th and 7th is less than 5th and 6th. I suspect it's not going to change in near future. I think top 5 teams will keep the gap and even widen it in future against the bottom 5 teams.

View attachment 139462View attachment 139463

These stats include games against B/C sides, games against lower ranked teams

Bilaterals are not relevant anymore.
Only ICC tournaments matter and India hasn't won anything for 10 years

 

[Buffet]

Why Semi Finals?

Pakistan has a better W/L in ICC finals in the past 20 years compared to India.

I am not pointing out W/L in Semi final. I am simply talking about team performing well enough to make it to semi finals in WC. I suspect Eng will improve it's record in future due to becoming a better ODI team in recent years.

 

[saqib.rai]

Look at it this way.

ODI WC semi final appearance in the last 20 years,


Aus - 5 times
NZ - 5 times
Ind - 5 times


SA - 3 times


Eng 1 times
Kenya 1 times
Pakistan 1 times


Eng ODI team used to be poor and it's reflected in this stat, but they have turn it around. I suspect they will make it to semis more often in future. Pakistan needs to do something similar specially is every team is going to paly every team in WC then consistent teams are going to make semis.

I noticed such propaganda on social media as well

This doesn't tell the whole picture at all

2015 WC- we beat South Africa which was the only decent team in our group apart from India

It was bad luck that we got to play the best team and eventual winners in the quarterfinals and got eliminated. If we had played against Bangladesh like India did, we would have reached the semis

2019 WC- we beat both finalists- Eng and NZ
Got eliminated on NRR as our match against a weak team got washed out

2023 WC- was a bad World Cup. Lacked a genuine spinner

in t20 WCs
Pakistan has reached 6/8 semi-finals
MOST by any country
I don't see anyone posting that

 

[Buffet]

I believe ODI stats need to be filtered further to be meaningful. It is because many teams don't play their full teams during bilateral ODI games.

I would remove all JAMODI stats and just include the stats from ICC tournaments to get a clearer picture.

Teams, except Pakistan, are not playing top teams all the times in ODI in recent years, but it's a good enough proxy specially given such a large sample size.

Pakistan plays full strength team. Pakistan's W/L ratio putting it at 6th place with full team is not going to get better if Pakistan starts playing B team like others.

 

[Buffet]

Also, in test cricket most teams are full strength. Pakistan comes rank 6 even in the test format in W/L in the last 10 years.


Pakistan has grabbed 6th place solidly. SL , Afg , WI are not going to rise in near future due to various reasons. BD has not really done much despite showing promise in middle. I suspect Pakistan can hold onto 6th place in W/L in Test and ODI format in the next 10 years as well, but decline has been going on for decades now.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

No matter how good is a product, if it is not a good end product then it's of no utility. The same goes for the indian team transformation from 2013-2023. They haven't been able to mold themselves in a good end product.

 

[Mamoon]

I noticed such propaganda on social media as well

This doesn't tell the whole picture at all

2015 WC- we beat South Africa which was the only decent team in our group apart from India

It was bad luck that we got to play the best team and eventual winners in the quarterfinals and got eliminated. If we had played against Bangladesh like India did, we would have reached the semis

Who told Pakistan to lose to the West Indies in the group?

Who told Pakistan to lose to India?

India played Bangladesh in the QF because they topped the group. It had nothing to do with Pakistan’s bad luck and everything to do with Pakistan’s incompetence.

2019 WC- we beat both finalists- Eng and NZ
Got eliminated on NRR as our match against a weak team got washed out

Again - who told Pakistan to lose to West Indies, India and Australia?

Pakistan weren’t eliminated in group because of a washout vs Sri Lanka; they were eliminated because they had the third worst NRR among all teams and that NRR got screwed because they were dismissed for 103 against West Indies who chased the total in 13.4 overs?

Again - who told Pakistan to get destroyed by West Indies in such fashion? It was Pakistan’s first match of the World Cup and Pakistan were on the ropes ever since and had one foot out of the door because they had to do something special to cancel its impact on the NRR which they obviously weren’t good enough to do so.

Fans like you love a good excuse. You think Pakistan would have dismantled Sri Lanka but if the West Indies match was washed out as well, fans like you would have never believed that they would have demolished Pakistan in such fashion.

Not in a million years would have you have accepted that scorecard if that match didn’t take place.

If Pakistan could get demolished by West Indies in such fashion, if Bangladesh could beat South Africa, if both Pakistan and Sri Lanka could beat England and if Afghanistan could push both Pakistan and India to the last ball, then Sri Lanka could have also beaten Pakistan.

You also conveniently forget that Pakistan vs Sri Lanka wasn’t the only match that was washed out. India vs New Zealand was also washed out and considering that New Zealand beat India in both the semifinal and the warmup, there is a good possibility that New Zealand would have beaten them in the group game as well.

India vs New Zealand will always be a close contest in English conditions.

Therefore, Pakistan did not get eliminated in the 2019 World Cup due to bad luck; they got eliminated due to their own incompetence. Had they lost to the West Indies with dignity or beaten either India or Australia, they would have made it. Their fate was in their hands and they blew it as always.