How will India-Pakistan relations evolve in 2024?

[Cpt. Rishwat]

lol you may want to call yourself a neutral brit, but you are Pakistani by heart. India and especially BJP have tried to establish peace multiple times and have been stuck back with terror attacks. The same people who you all cheered when they unleashed terror in India are not unleashing terror in Pakistan. Only way to improve relationship is somehow Pakistani citizens get enough strength to take power away from their establishment and empower their elected officials.

Sorry I have just seen this post now, have not been able to monitor every post over the last couple of weeks.

When did I cheer terror attacks in India? Can you offer some examples before making such horrendous statements?

As for me being a Pakistani by heart, not really sure what you mean. I have some connection due to blood ties, but culturally I am 100% Brit.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Restarting trade with India stays elusive​

There is no consensus among the stakeholders regarding the restoration of trade relations between Pakistan and India, according to the people familiar with the development.

Foreign Minister Ishaq Dar, speaking at a news conference in London on Saturday, indicated that Pakistan would give serious consideration to re-establishing trade ties with India, echoing sentiments expressed by the business and trade community within the country.

Pakistan suspended bilateral trade as part of a raft of measures in reaction to the Indian government's unilateral move to revoke the special status of disputed Indian Illegally Occupied Jammu and Kashmir (IIOJK) on August 5, 2019.

Islamabad had previously tied the resumption of trade with India to a reconsideration of India's decision regarding IIOJK.

In March 2021, the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf government was close to lifting the ban when the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) of the cabinet agreed to partially open trade with India. However, the decision was vetoed by the federal cabinet after some members warned then-prime minister Imran Khan that the decision would be a political suicide.

At the time, the security establishment under then-army chief General (retd) Qamar Javed Bajwa was eager to normalise ties with India.

Dar's latest statement suggested that there may be a renewed push to break the ice in the relationship with India.

Sources, however, told The Express Tribune on Sunday that there was no concrete proposal on the table at this stage regarding the resumption of trade ties between Pakistan and India.

It is believed that there are differences of opinion among the stakeholders regarding the move. Even within the Foreign Office, there are divided views, something sources said was not unusual.

Some are in favour of sticking to Pakistan’s stance that without any major concessions from India, there shouldn't be any normalisation.

However, others take a more pragmatic and realistic view. They believe Pakistan can take a page out of China’s playbook. China has uneasy ties and border disputes with India, yet this has not deterred the two rivals from trade ties.

While Gen (retd) Bajwa was keen to improve ties with India, there is little clarity when it comes to his successor. Some observers think that Dar's statement on the resumption of ties may have the blessing of the powers that be.

The proponents of resuming trade ties with India believe that regional trade could help Pakistan mitigate its economic troubles.

A study conducted by an international financial institution spoke of the great trade potential between Pakistan and India. The study shows that the true trade potential between Pakistan and India could be over $25 billion.

Official sources, however, are sceptical about the positive outcome. The Foreign Office thinks Pakistan must wait until the Indian elections, which are scheduled to take place in different phases in April and May.

The clear picture would emerge only once a new government is in place in New Delhi in May.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi congratulated Shehbaz Sharif on his election victory, but his terse statement raised many eyebrows.

Observers believe that despite the tense relationship, Modi’s message seems to suggest that India wants to keep the window of talks open with Pakistan.

Restarting trade with India stays elusive | The Express Tribune

No consensus among stakeholders yet regarding restoration of trade relations between both countries

tribune.com.pk

 

[FearlessRoar]

Don't know about India, but trading with India is needed for Pakistan.

 

[Hextro]

Don't know about India, but trading with India is needed for Pakistan.

Could you elaborate on why that is the case? Because the problem I think you're referring to has many logical solutions, and none of them includes trading with India.

 

[guard]

I envisage hostility at the border as the Indian elections near. Pak is always India's trump card to win elections.

Maybe once upon a time, definitely Yes. But since their economy has accelerated i dont think they bother as much. they will still drag Pakistans name in the mud for point scoring

 

[JaDed]

We've demonstrated that we can thrive without relying on trade with India, as evidenced by our industry and trade growth from 2018 to 2022. This period saw us surpassing growth targets through policies fostering industry growth and production, not import-driven policies like those of PML-N/PDM. If we started importing things from India with the usual PML-N import-oriented policies, 2022 Sri Lanka would start looking like a paradise in comparison.

You guys are already in that boat with China imports.

Imran Khan himself kept asking IMF to forgive loans for poor countries after covid , why do you think that was? Because of this aspect of Pakistani economy, it has always been like this.

 

[JaDed]

Yeah, you are right. Anti-Pakistan campaign has always worked in India for the party to win the elections.

? Considering Congress has ruled India majority of the time, and Establishment in Pakistan I doubt it.

 

[Hextro]

You guys are already in that boat with China imports.

Imran Khan himself kept asking IMF to forgive loans for poor countries after covid , why do you think that was? Because of this aspect of Pakistani economy, it has always been like this.

The global repercussions of COVID-19 affected every country, including India. Loans were necessary to sustain Pakistan's growth trajectory set in 2021-22, even if the economy wasn't overheating due to impending repayments. Imran Khan makes calls to world organizations regularly regarding many issues, like climate change, money laundering, social issues, etc, so his calling for the IMF to relax their conditions during the time of a once-in-a-lifetime global pandemic isn't odd at all.

Though not related to the main discussion, I'd say Pakistan handled Covid really well. So the economy held up in that regard.

As for concerns about China, I've never quite understood the fearmongering surrounding economic ties with them. China has demonstrated receptiveness to Pakistani exports. The issue arises when corrupt politicians sign detrimental contracts, which Pakistan has done more frequently with countries like the US and Australia than with China.

Let's examine Pakistan's trade relations with China during the periods mentioned. In 2018, imports from China were around $11 billion, rising to $14.6 billion in 2022, marking a 32.7% increase. However, when considering the increase in exports to China, from $1.85 billion in 2018 to $2.51 billion in 2022, the proportional increase outweighs that of imports. This trend indicates the potential for maintaining a balanced trade relationship with the world's largest economy.

Since you've used Imran's words as an example, I'll share something he has stated as well, he noted that while China is willing to import from Pakistan, the country lacks high-return exportable goods. Textiles and agricultural products constitute minor exports to China. Thus, PTI's trade philosophy prioritized domestic industry development through machinery imports and favorable export laws.

When PDM ministers advocate for trade relations with India, they conveniently omit the damage inflicted on Pakistan's industries and exporters by their own policies. They understand that Pakistan's struggling industry would struggle to compete with India's low-cost manufacturing, potentially flooding the domestic market with Indian products and further harming local industries.

The idea is that you develop your industry first before pursuing trade. This strategy proves more effective with China than with India because the products Pakistan could export would be relatively similar to those already present in India's market but not in China's.

 

[JaDed]

The global repercussions of COVID-19 affected every country, including India. Loans were necessary to sustain Pakistan's growth trajectory set in 2021-22, even if the economy wasn't overheating due to impending repayments. Imran Khan makes calls to world organizations regularly regarding many issues, like climate change, money laundering, social issues, etc, so his calling for the IMF to relax their conditions during the time of a once-in-a-lifetime global pandemic isn't odd at all.

Though not related to the main discussion, I'd say Pakistan handled Covid really well. So the economy held up in that regard.

As for concerns about China, I've never quite understood the fearmongering surrounding economic ties with them. China has demonstrated receptiveness to Pakistani exports. The issue arises when corrupt politicians sign detrimental contracts, which Pakistan has done more frequently with countries like the US and Australia than with China.

Let's examine Pakistan's trade relations with China during the periods mentioned. In 2018, imports from China were around $11 billion, rising to $14.6 billion in 2022, marking a 32.7% increase. However, when considering the increase in exports to China, from $1.85 billion in 2018 to $2.51 billion in 2022, the proportional increase outweighs that of imports. This trend indicates the potential for maintaining a balanced trade relationship with the world's largest economy.

Since you've used Imran's words as an example, I'll share something he has stated as well, he noted that while China is willing to import from Pakistan, the country lacks high-return exportable goods. Textiles and agricultural products constitute minor exports to China. Thus, PTI's trade philosophy prioritized domestic industry development through machinery imports and favorable export laws.

When PDM ministers advocate for trade relations with India, they conveniently omit the damage inflicted on Pakistan's industries and exporters by their own policies. They understand that Pakistan's struggling industry would struggle to compete with India's low-cost manufacturing, potentially flooding the domestic market with Indian products and further harming local industries.

The idea is that you develop your industry first before pursuing trade. This strategy proves more effective with China than with India because the products Pakistan could export would be relatively similar to those already present in India's market but not in China's.

I agree that it’s not beneficial for Pakistan to trade with India lets get that out of the way first.

Now coming to Pakistan China trade you are saying tbat a 20 billion $ deficit is not an issue for Pakistan?

China: export of goods to Pakistan 2023 | Statista

In 2023, China exported goods with a value of around 17.33 billion U.S.

www.statista.com

In 2022, Pakistan’s exports to China were recorded at $2.53 billion while China’s exports to Pakistan stood at $23.09 billion, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

yes because these ganja brothers can do anything to expand their personal business.

 

[PakLFC]

Maybe once upon a time, definitely Yes. But since their economy has accelerated i dont think they bother as much. they will still drag Pakistans name in the mud for point scoring

Just wait. Something will happen in IoK before the Indian elections. It always does.

 

[rpant_gabba]

I agree that it’s not beneficial for Pakistan to trade with India lets get that out of the way first.

Now coming to Pakistan China trade you are saying tbat a 20 billion $ deficit is not an issue for Pakistan?

China: export of goods to Pakistan 2023 | Statista

In 2023, China exported goods with a value of around 17.33 billion U.S.

www.statista.com

In 2022, Pakistan’s exports to China were recorded at $2.53 billion while China’s exports to Pakistan stood at $23.09 billion, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database.

Thats 20B in a year in forex gap to one country. before they import petrol from gulf.

jeez they are up shot creek w/o a paddle

 

[Hextro]

I agree that it’s not beneficial for Pakistan to trade with India lets get that out of the way first.

Now coming to Pakistan China trade you are saying tbat a 20 billion $ deficit is not an issue for Pakistan?

China: export of goods to Pakistan 2023 | Statista

In 2023, China exported goods with a value of around 17.33 billion U.S.

www.statista.com

In 2022, Pakistan’s exports to China were recorded at $2.53 billion while China’s exports to Pakistan stood at $23.09 billion, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database.

Ah, the good old blue blob stats sites(referring to the ugly blue vertical rectangles these sites use). While Statista likely gathers data from relatively reliable sources, I've grown wary of using them due to discrepancies I've noticed in almost every dataset they present, including the one you linked. The stats I shared came directly from SBP (State Bank of Pakistan), the institution responsible for monitoring economic data, particularly trade data.

To illustrate the unreliability of these blue blob stats sites, consider Tradingeconomics, which also purports to source data from UN COMTRADE, as seen below.

Pakistan Imports from China was US$16.13 Billion during 2022, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade. Pakistan Imports from China - data, historical chart and statistics - was last updated on March of 2024.

Pakistan Imports from China - 2024 Data 2025 Forecast 2009-2023 Historical

Pakistan Imports from China was US$11.69 Billion during 2023, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade. Pakistan Imports from China - data, historical chart and statistics - was last updated on October of 2024.

tradingeconomics.com

The discrepancy between these two sites, despite supposedly having the same source, underscores the unreliability of such platforms in providing accurate statistics.

That's precisely why I prefer quoting numbers directly from the source—the entities responsible for compiling the data.

I hope I was able to clear things up for you.

 

[Red-Indian]

Ah, the good old blue blob stats sites(referring to the ugly blue vertical rectangles these sites use). While Statista likely gathers data from relatively reliable sources, I've grown wary of using them due to discrepancies I've noticed in almost every dataset they present, including the one you linked. The stats I shared came directly from SBP (State Bank of Pakistan), the institution responsible for monitoring economic data, particularly trade data.

To illustrate the unreliability of these blue blob stats sites, consider Tradingeconomics, which also purports to source data from UN COMTRADE, as seen below.

Pakistan Imports from China - 2024 Data 2025 Forecast 2009-2023 Historical

Pakistan Imports from China was US$11.69 Billion during 2023, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade. Pakistan Imports from China - data, historical chart and statistics - was last updated on October of 2024.

tradingeconomics.com

The discrepancy between these two sites, despite supposedly having the same source, underscores the unreliability of such platforms in providing accurate statistics.

That's precisely why I prefer quoting numbers directly from the source—the entities responsible for compiling the data.

I hope I was able to clear things up for you.

Yep I never use Statista either. They're notoriously slipshod in their data collection.

In any case though, you're not disputing the direction of this analysis only the magnitude. Every country that's not a commodity exporter runs a massive trade deficit with China. We're talking about these $12B to $20B numbers for Pakistan but India's is likely $80B plus.

Whether you trade with India or not, it's not going make the slightest difference on that trade deficit. India doesn't manufacture a quarter of the stuff that China does and in most cases that it does, can't match the price. The only benefit to reviving trade between India and Pakistan would be around the margins - farmers in both border regions that have a surplus and would benefit, some energy trades etc. More goodwill building than actual economic benefit.

On the other hand, you're not going to reduce that deficit through export to China. No one does unless you suddenly find oil or some of those Chip materials. The focus should be on exporting to Europe and the States.

 

[JaDed]

Ah, the good old blue blob stats sites(referring to the ugly blue vertical rectangles these sites use). While Statista likely gathers data from relatively reliable sources, I've grown wary of using them due to discrepancies I've noticed in almost every dataset they present, including the one you linked. The stats I shared came directly from SBP (State Bank of Pakistan), the institution responsible for monitoring economic data, particularly trade data.

To illustrate the unreliability of these blue blob stats sites, consider Tradingeconomics, which also purports to source data from UN COMTRADE, as seen below.

Pakistan Imports from China - 2024 Data 2025 Forecast 2009-2023 Historical

Pakistan Imports from China was US$11.69 Billion during 2023, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade. Pakistan Imports from China - data, historical chart and statistics - was last updated on October of 2024.

tradingeconomics.com

The discrepancy between these two sites, despite supposedly having the same source, underscores the unreliability of such platforms in providing accurate statistics.

That's precisely why I prefer quoting numbers directly from the source—the entities responsible for compiling the data.

I hope I was able to clear things up for you.

Fair point but the deficit is still large enough and has been getting larger.

 

[Hextro]

In any case though, you're not disputing the direction of this analysis only the magnitude. Every country that's not a commodity exporter runs a massive trade deficit with China. We're talking about these $12B to $20B numbers for Pakistan but India's is likely $80B plus.

While Pakistan currently runs a deficit with China, there's still potential to reduce, or at least proportionally address, this deficit, as I've demonstrated with evidence in a previous comment.

Whether you trade with India or not, it's not going make the slightest difference on that trade deficit. India doesn't manufacture a quarter of the stuff that China does and in most cases that it does, can't match the price.

Location is crucial here. The border regions of China neighboring Pakistan are economically weaker than mainland China and lack efficient transport infrastructure to deliver goods through rugged terrain. In contrast, India shares a direct border with Pakistan, meaning manufacturers and exporters there incur fewer expenses to access the market. Simply put, no matter how competitively priced Chinese products are, Indian products are likely to be even cheaper.

Additionally, India's overall lower cost of goods due to lower incomes further compounds this advantage. But let's not delve too deeply into the nerdy details.

On the other hand, you're not going to reduce that deficit through export to China. No one does unless you suddenly find oil or some of those Chip materials. The focus should be on exporting to Europe and the States.

Alternatively, you could boost your exports at a faster rate than your imports, a feat Pakistan achieved in 2022(trade with China) despite lacking an advanced manufacturing sector. This aligns with Imran Khan's philosophy of prioritizing the development of high-value exportable goods over subsidizing non-productive industries.

Note that I'm talking about percentage increase, not sum.

The only benefit to reviving trade between India and Pakistan would be around the margins - farmers in both border regions that have a surplus and would benefit, some energy trades etc. More goodwill building than actual economic benefit.

Did you know that Pakistan and India used to engage in significant trade before PTI came into power? It was only when PTI came in that the trade died off.

In 2018, Pakistan exported $247 million worth of goods to India, while India exported $2 billion worth to Pakistan. India holds an 8X advantage in these trades. For comparison, China's advantage is less than 6X, and it was diminishing. This so-called 'goodwill' you're suggesting appears to have come at a hefty cost to Pakistan's trade balance, and if expanded, it has the potential to hurt Pakistan far more than trading with China would.

Numbers Source - SBP

 

[Red-Indian]

While Pakistan currently runs a deficit with China, there's still potential to reduce, or at least proportionally address, this deficit, as I've demonstrated with evidence in a previous comment.


Alternatively, you could boost your exports at a faster rate than your imports, a feat Pakistan achieved in 2022(trade with China) despite lacking an advanced manufacturing sector. This aligns with Imran Khan's philosophy of prioritizing the development of high-value exportable goods over subsidizing non-productive industries.

Note that I'm talking about percentage increase, not sum.

To start with, I think you have to be careful with SBP numbers. There's a growing gap between what China's reporting as exports to Pakistan through the Comtrade database and what the SBP's reporting as imports. The Pakistan Business Council have called it out as well and I'm no expert but suspect it has something to do with SBP using payment data while Chinese companies use actual value of invoicing. So maybe long term credit lines offered by Chinese government companies through the government are the difference?

The reduction in gap is possible in theory but the fact is you yourself acknowledge you're talking percentage not sum. As you no doubt know, a 5% increase on 14B is bigger than 25% on 2.5B (using your SBP numbers). China just doesn't import enough to really make a significant dent on that deficit. Europe and the States on the other hand import plenty since manufacturing is decimated there. What would really really help on the Balance of Trade is accelerating FDI from China especially in export oriented manufacturing compared to investments in infrastructure, Power etc. that have come in so far which cater more to the domestic market. China is starting to struggle with labour costs in some labour-intensive industries and this could be an opportunity for Pakistan to target and tempt those industries to a 'friendly country' with low labour costs.

Location is crucial here. The border regions of China neighboring Pakistan are economically weaker than mainland China and lack efficient transport infrastructure to deliver goods through rugged terrain. In contrast, India shares a direct border with Pakistan, meaning manufacturers and exporters there incur fewer expenses to access the market. Simply put, no matter how competitively priced Chinese products are, Indian products are likely to be even cheaper.

Additionally, India's overall lower cost of goods due to lower incomes further compounds this advantage. But let's not delve too deeply into the nerdy details.
Did you know that Pakistan and India used to engage in significant trade before PTI came into power? It was only when PTI came in that the trade died off.

In 2018, Pakistan exported $247 million worth of goods to India, while India exported $2 billion worth to Pakistan. India holds an 8X advantage in these trades. For comparison, China's advantage is less than 6X, and it was diminishing. This so-called 'goodwill' you're suggesting appears to have come at a hefty cost to Pakistan's trade balance, and if expanded, it has the potential to hurt Pakistan far more than trading with China would.

Numbers Source - SBP

I can't debate too much there. In the short term, there's not much case for Pakistan opening up imports from India. Whatever's truly essential like pharmaceuticals, some fertilisers and chemicals get transhipped through Dubai anyway for a slightly higher cost. Best to let it lie for a while till Pakistani industry is more mature.

 

[Hextro]

To start with, I think you have to be careful with SBP numbers. There's a growing gap between what China's reporting as exports to Pakistan through the Comtrade database and what the SBP's reporting as imports. The Pakistan Business Council have called it out as well and I'm no expert but suspect it has something to do with SBP using payment data while Chinese companies use actual value of invoicing. So maybe long term credit lines offered by Chinese government companies through the government are the difference?

I thought we were over this already. Just say that you want a more "complete" source, one that preferably fits the argument you are trying to make, I won't be able to provide that. Instead, I'll share figures from PBS (Pakistan Bureau of Statistics).

During jul-jun, 2021-22 Imports were $21 Billion while exports were $3.2 Billion. It is worth noting that according to PBS, China's total share of Pakistan's imports decreased while its share of Pakistan's exports increased. supporting my initial point of stabilizing the trade balance as time goes on with aggressive export-oriented policies.

PBS is the authority in Pakistan regarding these matters, and their data collection methodology should alleviate any doubts. It's worth noting that PBS includes additional parameters in their dataset compared to SBP, perhaps addressing your concerns. However, it's evident that both sources only consider the import and export of goods, not services, despite the significant jump in Pakistan's services exports during the periods under discussion.

The Pakistan Business Council have called it out as well

I'm uncertain about the credentials of the PBC you're referring to. However, organizations directly involved in trade matters, like SBP and PBS, typically hold greater authority and authenticity in providing accurate data. The same goes for "Comtrade", I don't know from where or how they get their data.

The reduction in gap is possible in theory but the fact is you yourself acknowledge you're talking percentage not sum. As you no doubt know, a 5% increase on 14B is bigger than 25% on 2.5B (using your SBP numbers). China just doesn't import enough to really make a significant dent on that deficit.

You don't necessarily need to fully close the gap. Other sources like remittances can help stabilize your Balance of Payments, ensuring it remains manageable. While leaving too much room can be precarious, it doesn't necessarily lead to a crisis.

Europe and the States on the other hand import plenty since manufacturing is decimated there. What would really really help on the Balance of Trade is accelerating FDI from China especially in export oriented manufacturing compared to investments in infrastructure, Power etc. that have come in so far which cater more to the domestic market. China is starting to struggle with labour costs in some labour-intensive industries and this could be an opportunity for Pakistan to target and tempt those industries to a 'friendly country' with low labour costs.

Cutting down on trade relations also diminishes potential investment opportunities for a country. Currently, there isn't a significant conflict of interest between China and Pakistan. Unlike the US, which may oppose Pakistan's political choices, China is primarily concerned with project timelines and returns on investments. As long as these aspects are met, China will keep investing. So to purposefully get on their bad side is not a good idea.

That's all for now. There were a few more points I wanted to address but there are more interesting things happening right now that demand my immediate attention.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Any progress without talks on Kashmir would be futile and abominable.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Any progress without talks on Kashmir would be futile and abominable.

Pakistan is no longer a stakeholder in Kashmir. At least from a GOI perspective. GOI sees it as an internal matter only.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Pakistan is no longer a stakeholder in Kashmir. At least from a GOI perspective. GOI sees it as an internal matter only.

That is the real bone of contention.

 

[FearlessRoar]

IAF reveals what led to accidental BrahMos firing into Pakistan: ‘Combat connectors…’​

The accidental firing of a BrahMos supersonic missile in March two years ago – the missile landed in Pakistan – was due to its combat connectors ‘staying connected to the junction box,’ leading to the BrahMos being misfired, the Indian Air Force (IAF) informed the Delhi high court on Friday, according to The Economic Times.

This is the first time that the IAF has revealed the reason behind the incident, which took place on March 9, 2022. Islamabad had lodged its protest with New Delhi the next day.

“The combat crew, (despite) knowing that that the combat connectors of combat missiles are connected to the junction box, failed to intervene to prevent the Mobile Autonomous Launcher commander from committing an unsafe act of launching the Combat Missile, resulting in a launch into the neighbouring nation, thereby causing a potential threat to any airborne/ground object/personnel,” the IAF noted in its reply to the high court.

The incident caused a loss to the tune of ₹25 crore to the government exchequer, it said, adding that the Indian Air Force's ‘reputation was damaged as well.’ The force also described the incident as one which had the ‘effect of affecting the relations’ between India and Pakistan.

The Court of Inquiry (CoI), set by the IAF days after the misfire, had examined as many as 16 witnesses, and found Group Captain Saurabh Gupta, Squadron Leader Pranjal Singh, and Wing Commander Abhinav Sharma – all members of the Combat Team – responsible for ‘various acts of omission and commission leading to the firing of the missile.’

It was in response to Wing Commander Sharma's petition, that the IAF submitted its reply in the high court. Responding to the Wing Commander ascribing blame on Air Commodore JT Kurien, it termed his allegations as ‘conjectures, surmises, baseless, and without any substantiating evidence.’

The Indian Air Force also dismissed Sharma's contention that he was ‘in no position to avert the firing of the missile.’

IAF reveals what led to accidental BrahMos firing into Pakistan: ‘Combat connectors…’

In a reply to the Delhi high court, the IAF disclosed for the first time, the reason behind the March 2022 incident.

www.hindustantimes.com

 

[FearlessRoar]

It shows how poorly the Indian Air Force operates its mechanisms.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Why will India be interested in any talks?

The GoI wants no talks no tours no nothing to do with Pakistan.

GoI has no interest.

Any progress without talks on Kashmir would be futile and abominable.

That is the real bone of contention.

 

[Hitman]

Why will India be interested in any talks?

The GoI wants no talks no tours no nothing to do with Pakistan.

GoI has no interest.

Also, it was GoP that suspended trade ties with India. And what have we lost out on since then? Basically nothing.

I still want good relations with Pakistan simply because they are our neighbour, and between the choice of having good relations or bad relations with any one of our neighbours, I'll always choose the former. But sorry to say, not at the cost of Kashmir. Kashmir is something we shouldn't even talk about either with Pakistan or any other country in the world.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Also, it was GoP that suspended trade ties with India. And what have we lost out on since then? Basically nothing.

I still want good relations with Pakistan simply because they are our neighbour, and between the choice of having good relations or bad relations with any one of our neighbours, I'll always choose the former. But sorry to say, not at the cost of Kashmir. Kashmir is something we shouldn't even talk about either with Pakistan or any other country in the world.

Modi government has shown we lose nothing by not talking to Pakistan.

I find no reason to reverse that unless we have something substantial to gain.

 

[hassan918]

Defence minster hopeful of thaw in Islamabad-New Delhi ties after Indian elections​

Defence Minister Khawaja Asif on Monday expressed hopes for betterment in bilateral ties with India after the neighbour comes out of its election phase commencing from April 19 and ending in June.

Regional arch-rivals — Islamabad and New Delhi — have a long history of strained relations, primarily due to Indian Illegally Occupied Jammu and Kashmir (IIOJK) dispute which led to several wars while tensions usually rise on the occasions of countrywide elections in India.

“Our relations with India could be improved after elections there,” the defence minister expressed his views while speaking to reporters outside the Parliament House in Islamabad, adding that Pakistan and India ties have its "own background".

As the country which borders with China, India, Afghanistan, and Iran witnessed tensions with other neighbours, except for China, following crossborder attacks from Iran and Afghanistan, Asif is hopeful for a turn of event in terms of improvement of bilateral ties with New Delhi after the neighbour completes its upcoming election phase.

It is noteworthy to mention here that India will begin voting in phases starting April 19 to elect a new parliament, the world's largest election in which nearly one billion people are eligible to cast ballots, Reuters reported.

The election pits two-term strongman Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his regional allies against a bickering alliance of two dozen opposition parties, with surveys suggesting a comfortable win for Modi's Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP).

Epicentre of recent wave of terrorism in Pakistan is Afghanistan until the neighbouring country takes decisive action against the banned outfit Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) safe havens there.

The defence minister said that he, along with a high-level delegation, visited Afghanistan to request the Taliban government there to take effective steps to stop terrorism. However, the solution proposed by Kabul was not practically possible, he added.

“Our options are now reducing day-by-day for the neighbour due to fluctuation in Afghan interim government’s attitude towards Pakistan,” Asif said. He added that Pakistan has always stood besides Afghanistan, rendered sacrifices for them, and even fought wars with them.

He stressed treatment of Pak-Afghan border like other borders around the globe which restricts cross-border movement to visa holders under international laws.

He was of the view that the movement of people from Afghanistan without visas allows terrorists to enter Pakistan.

He also signalled on behalf of the federal government taking concrete steps in the coming days to the complete elimination of terrorism.

Elaborating on ongoing probe into the attack on Chinese nationals in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KP), Asif said that joint investigation teams of Pakistan and China found some leads, and they would soon dig up all facts regarding the terrorist attack.

Five Chinese citizens, including a woman, and a Pakistani driver were killed when their vehicle was attacked in Shangla's Besham city as a suicide bomber crashed his explosives-laden vehicle into the car carrying the victims on March 26.

To a question, the minister replied that Islamabad is successfully fulfilling targets of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), however, the government would be able to provide relief to the nation after at least 1.5 years.

He detailed that cases related to tax recovery worth Rs2,700 are currently pending, whereas, billions of rupees are being drained from the national exchequer due to electricity and gas theft. He, however, was optimistic of providing relief to the masses within next six months by taking effective moves.

To another question regarding restrictions on the Pakistan-Iran gas pipeline project, Asif replied that the United States should give an alternative solution to fulfilling energy needs of the country. He added that Washington must have to consider weak economic situation of Islamabad as the country reserves right to purchase gas on low prices from its neighbour.

Source: GEO

 

[FearlessRoar]

There is no doubt that India has been sending terrorists to Pakistan for quite some time, causing unrest.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Saudi crown prince meets Pakistani premier, stresses India-Pakistan dialogue​

Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman said dialogue was needed to resolve heightened friction between arch-rivals Pakistan and India during a meeting in Riyadh with visiting Pakistani Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif.

Sharif was making his first overseas visit since winning power in elections in February. He met with bin Salman on Sunday.

"The two sides stressed the importance of dialogue between Pakistan and India to resolve the outstanding issues between the two countries, especially the Jammu and Kashmir dispute to ensure peace and stability in the region," a joint statement released by Pakistan's foreign office and the Saudi government said.

The disputed Himalayan region of Kashmir is claimed in full, though ruled in part by both India and Pakistan since independence from Britain in 1947, with the neighbours having fought two of their three wars over it.

Always-fragile relations between India and Pakistan have worsened since a 2019 suicide bombing of an Indian military convoy in Kashmir was traced to Pakistan-based militants, leading New Delhi to carry out an airstrike on what it said was a militant base in Pakistan.

Indian Defence Minister Rajnath Singh said on Friday that India would enter Pakistan to kill anyone who escapes over the border after trying to carry out militant activities in the country.

The minister was speaking a day after Britain's Guardian newspaper published a report stating the Indian government had killed about 20 people in Pakistan since 2020 as part of a broader plan to eliminate militants residing on foreign soil.

India has longstanding friendly relations with Arab countries including Saudi Arabia, which have strengthened under Prime Minister Narendra Modi who is widely expected to win a third term in office in elections starting April 19.

Sharif and bin Salman had also discussed expediting a planned $5 billion investment package, which cash-strapped Pakistan desperately needs to shore up its current account deficit and signal to the International Monetary Fund that it can continue to met requirements for foreign financing that has been a key demand in previous bailout packages.

Pakistan said in January it had credible evidence linking Indian agents to the killing of two of its citizens on its soil. India said it was "false and malicious" propaganda.

https://www.reuters.com/world/saudi-crown-prince-meets-pakistani-premier-stresses-india-pakistan-dialogue-2024-04-08/

 

[FearlessRoar]

Kick this evil minded dictator Modi out of Indian politics and everything will be fine.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Pakistan seeks to heal ties with India

Foreign Minister Ishaq Dar said on Thursday he started consultations with stakeholders on the resumption of trade ties with India in yet another sign of the government’s eagerness to seek rapprochement with the neighboring country.

Dar told reporters at the Foreign Office that he had already begun discussions with the business community to build consensus on the thorny issue. Once consensus was built among the business community, he added, he would then start a consultation process with other stakeholders.

Any decision on the reopening of the trade would be taken after the input from all the relevant stakeholders, he said.

Dar first hinted at the possibility of resumption of trade ties with India last month during a press conference in London. He was of the view that the business community in Pakistan wanted the resumption of trade ties between Pakistan and India.

His statement drew criticism from opposition ranks and critics, who termed it ill-timed. However, Dar on Thursday defended his earlier remarks, stating that many businessmen told him that they were importing goods from India through a third country, which cost them more, and hence they were in favor of the resumption of direct trade ties between the two countries.

Islamabad severed trade ties with New Delhi in the aftermath of India’s decision to revoke the special status of the disputed Jammu and Kashmir region in August 2019. Since then, Pakistan has consistently maintained that normalization would happen only after Delhi reverted to the pre-August 5, 2019 status quo.

There were efforts, however, in the past to partially reopen trade, first during the time of the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) government and second time when the Pakistan Democratic Movement (PDM) was in charge.

In March 2021, the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) of the cabinet gave a go-ahead to partially reopen trade with India. Then Prime Minister Imran Khan, who held the additional charge of the commerce minister, approved the ECC decision. However, the proposal was shot down by the prime minister at the federal cabinet after some members termed the move as political suicide.

The resumption of trade was part of behind-the-scene efforts by the two sides to normalize their relationship. The secret diplomacy earlier led to the renewal of the 2003 ceasefire deal along the Line of Control (LoC).

There was another push to reopen trade with India after the PTI government was replaced by the coalition government of Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif. Then Finance Minister Dr Miftah Ismail got the go-ahead from the prime minister to import tomatoes and onions from India to tackle the rising inflation.

Miftah told The Review show on Express News recently that in one of the international conferences he bumped into the Indian foreign minister. During that brief conversation, he expressed Pakistan’s intention to reopen trade with India. Miftah said the Indian foreign minister had told him that he would speak to the government. “However, he would never get back to me,” Miftah added.

Observers believe that the hard-line government of India may not be keen to restore trade links with Pakistan. They are also of the view that any progress on trade or other ties would happen after the Indian general elections. India is scheduled to go for national elections in 7 phases over the next two months. The new government would take charge in June.

Dar’s statement on the possibility of resumption of trade with India indicated the longstanding view of three-time former prime minister Nawaz Sharif, who always pushed for friendly ties with the neighboring country.

Meanwhile, Foreign Minister Dar confirmed to the reporters that his Afghan counterpart invited him to visit Kabul. The invitation was extended last month when Afghan Interim Foreign Minister Amir Khan Muttaqi telephoned him after he was appointed foreign minister.

Dar insisted that engagement was the way forward to resolve any issues. He said he would travel to Kabul provided the prime minister and other stakeholders gave the go-ahead.

Relations between Pakistan and Afghanistan have been tense for months over the unresolved issue of banned Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP). The continued cross-border terrorist attacks have pushed Pakistan to limit its engagement with the Kabul regime.

Islamabad has taken a series of measures including repatriation of undocumented Afghans, plugging loopholes in the Afghan transit facility, and other measures to put pressure on the Taliban government. However, those efforts made little impact as terrorist groups continued to target from across the border ambassador US Ambassador Donald Blome held a meeting with Foreign Minister Ishaq Dar on Thursday to delve into recent developments in the region.

Acting spokesperson for the US Mission, Thomas Montgomery, conveyed the essence of the dialogue in a statement issued shortly after the meeting without specifically mentioning the recent regional events.

Ambassador Blome reiterated the United States' unwavering commitment to collaborating closely with the government and the people of Pakistan. He underscored that ensuring prosperity and security for Pakistan remains among the highest priorities for the United States.

SOURCE: EXPRESS TRIBUNE

 

[FearlessRoar]

Pakistan rebuts backdoor diplomacy with India

Foreign Office spokesperson Mumtaz Zahra Baloch said that there was no back channel diplomacy going on between Pakistan and India to normalize bilateral trade, ARY News reported quoting MoFA.

In her weekly press briefing, the spokesperson told the media that Pakistan was witnessing a surge in provocative statements from the Indian leaders asserting unwarranted claims on the Indian Illegally Occupied Jammu and Kashmir (IIOJK). Pakistan rejects the Indian claims as fueled by hyper-nationalism with inflammation rhetoric, such claims pose threats to regional peace and stability.

She urged the Indian politicians to cease the practice of dragging Pakistan into their internal discourse aimed at gaining electoral motives.

She said that despite Indian rhetoric and assertions, IIOJK remained an internationally recognized disputed territory as the UN Security Council’s resolutions clearly outlined that final status would be determined by the will of the Kashmiri people through a free plebiscite.

“India would be wise to help implement those resolutions instead of harboring delusion of grandeur,” she remarked.

The spokesperson also condemned the ongoing vilification, stigmatization and victimization of Muslims and other minorities in India.

She said that Prime Minister (PM) Shehbaz Sharif is scheduled to attend a special meeting of the World Economic Forum on “Global Collaboration, Growth and Energy for Development” in Riyadh on April 28-29.

The spokesperson told the media that the prime minister, accompanied by Foreign Minister Senator Ishaq Dar, would travel to the Kingdom at the invitation of Saudi Crown Prince and Prime Minister Mohammed bin Salman and WEF Founder and Executive Chairman Klaus Schwab.

She said that the high-level participation in the Forum would provide an opportunity to highlight Pakistan’s priorities in global health architecture, inclusive growth, regional collaboration and balance between growth and energy consumption, besides interacting with the participating world leaders and heads of international orgnisations.

The prime minister will visit Gambia to attend the 15th session of the Islamic Summit Conference under the slogan “Enhancing Unity and Solidarity through Dialogue for Sustainable Development,” on May 4-5, 2024 in Banjul, the capital city of Gambia.

The OIC summit is being held at a critical time when the Israeli atrocities in Gaza continued unabated where the Muslim world leaders will deliberate on the situation in Palestine.

She said that Prime Minister Shehbaz would express Pakistan’s grave concern on genocide in Gaza, advocate for their right to self-determination, the imperative of solidarity, besides deliberating on Islamophobia, terrorism, and the challenges faced by the world, particularly the Muslim world.

The prime minister will also hold bilateral meetings with the Muslim world leaders.

The OIC Summit will be preceded by the preparatory meeting of the Council of Foreign Ministers on May 2-3 to be attended by Foreign Minister Dar, who will also hold bilateral meetings.

Apprising the media of the visit of Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi, she said during the interactions, both sides agreed to strengthen economic and cultural cooperation, turn the bilateral borders into borders of peace and cooperation, fast-track the negotiations on Free Trade Agreement and release each other’s prisoners.

Asked about the Iran-Pakistan Gas Pipeline Project, she said it was discussed during President Raisi’s visit and also featured in the joint statement. She said Pakistan had significant energy needs and was exploring options for its import.

She said Pakistan had noted the statements from the US authorities about the Pakistan-Iran trade and was engaged with the US and discussed all aspects of the energy needs.

She told the media that a high-level delegation of China International Development Cooperation Agency (CIDCA) led by Chairman Luo Zhaohui visited Pakistan and met Prime Minister Shehbaz and other leadership wherein both sides agreed to accelerate the projects being executed under the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor.

Highlighting the situation in Gaza and the discovery of two mass graves, Spokesperson Baloch called for investigation and fixing of responsibility for the Israeli war crimes, immediate and unconditional ceasefire, lifting of the siege and unhindered access to humanitarian aid.

Coming to the US Country Report on Human Rights Practices, the spokesperson reiterates the rejection as it had flawed methodology.

Pakistan rebuts backdoor diplomacy with India

ISLAMABAD: Foreign Office spokesperson Mumtaz Zahra Baloch said that there was no back channel diplomacy going on between Pakistan and India to normalize

arynews.tv

 

[Markhor]

Evolve ? I think the word devolve is more appropriate.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Trade with India suspended due to heavy duties, says Dar

Trade ties between Pakistan and India have remained suspended since 2019 due to imposition of heavy duties by New Delhi on imports from Pakistan after the Pulwama attack, Foreign Minister Ishaq Dar told the National Assembly in written reply to a question on Saturday.

Mr Dar was referring to a suicide attack on a bus carrying soldiers in Indian-occupied Kashmir on Feb 14, 2019, in which 40 personnel lost their lives.

“India decided to impose 200 per cent duty on imports from Pakistan, suspended the Kashmir bus service and trade across the Line of Control,” he said.

The reply was over a question by Sharmila Faruqui seeking details about challenges being faced by Pakistan in its relations with neighbouring countries.

Mr Dar highlighted the challenges confronting Pakistan in its relations with India, Afghanistan and Iran. “We have consistently advocated constructive engagement and result-oriented dialogue to resolve all outstanding issues, including the core issue of Jammu and Kashmir.

“But India’s intransigence and retrogressive actions have vitiated the atmosphere and impeded the prospects of peace and cooperation,” Mr Dar added.

He said that India continued its efforts to consolidate its occupation of held Kashmir and unleashed a wave of oppression on hapless Kashmiris. “India’s belligerence poses a serious challenge to efforts for normalisation of relations.”

The foreign minister said India had engineered acts of subversion in Pakistan and the “onus is now on Delhi to take steps for the creation of an environment that is conducive to peace and dialogue”.

Afghan ties

Regarding Afghanistan, Mr Dar said Pakistan believes that a peaceful and stable Afghanistan is a strategic imperative for Pakistan.

“Pakistan has consistently remained engaged with the interim Afghan government, neighbouring countries and the international community to achieve the objective of peace and stability in Afghanistan,” the reply said.

But, the foreign minister regretted, “terrorism from Afghanistan has emerged as a major challenge” for Pakistan over the last several years in the shape of attacks by the TTP and its affiliates based in Afghanistan.

“Freedom of movement enjoyed by the TTP there has hampered efforts to improve bilateral relations,” Mr Dar said.

SOURCE: DAWN

 

[Cricket Warrior]

It depends on how Modi Sahib runs his election campaign. If he continues to push the conventional anti Pakistan narrative then things will surely remain the same.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Pakistan says 'premature' to congratulate PM Narendra Modi on electoral win​

Ahead of Narendra Modi's swearing-in as the Prime Minister, Pakistan on Friday said it was "premature" for the country to congratulate the Indian Prime Minister. The statement by Pakistan's Foreign Office spokesperson Mumtaz Zahra Baloch came after she was asked whether her country had officially congratulated Narendra Modi on winning the general elections.

"We do not have any comments on their electoral process," Baloch said, adding that since the formation of government was going on in India, it is "premature" to talk about congratulating the Indian Prime Minister.

Addressing her weekly press briefing, Baloch said Pakistan desired "cooperative ties" with all neighbours, including India, and resolution of disputes through talks.

Baloch also said Pakistan has been acting in a "responsible manner, notwithstanding the difficulties and rhetoric coming from India".

"Pakistan has always desired cooperative relations with all its neighbours including India. We have consistently advocated constructive dialogue and engagement to resolve all outstanding issues, including the core dispute of Jammu and Kashmir," she said.

Pakistan downgraded its ties with India after the Indian Parliament suspended Article 370 on August 5, 2019, a decision that Islamabad believed undermined the environment for holding talks between the neighbours.

India has been maintaining that it desires normal neighbourly relations with Pakistan while insisting that the onus is on Islamabad to create an environment that is free of terror and hostility for such an engagement.

"Pakistan believes in peaceful co-existence. We hope that India will take steps to create a conducive environment for the advancement of peace and dialogue and resolution of long-standing disputes for the mutual benefit of the peoples of Pakistan and India," Baloch said at the briefing.

Narendra Modi is all set to take charge as India's Prime Minister on Sunday for a historic third consecutive term with the BJP-led National Democratic Alliance (NDA) winning 293 seats in the Lok Sabha polls, the results for which were announced on June 4.

Pakistan says 'premature' to congratulate PM Narendra Modi on electoral win

Pakistan has deemed it premature to congratulate PM Modi on his electoral victory and emphasised the need for a conducive environment for peace and dialogue between the two nations.

www.indiatoday.in

 

[FearlessRoar]

But Modi will not change his animosity towards Pakistan

https://twitter.com/x/status/1800066706502828111

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Indian Foreign Minister Subrahmanyam Jaishankar on Tuesday said his country wanted to “find a solution to the issue of years-old cross-border terrorism” with Pakistan

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi was sworn in on Sunday for a record-equalling third term at a grand ceremony at the Rashtrapati Bhavan, the president’s palace in New Delhi, attended by leaders of seven regional countries, underlining the government’s “neighbourhood first” policy.

But relations and problems with China and Pakistan were different, Jaishankar told reporters, after assuming charge for a second straight term.

“With Pakistan, we would want to find a solution to the issue of years-old cross-border terrorism. That cannot be the policy of a good neighbour,” Jaishankar said.

On Monday, leaders of the two countries engaged in diplomacy via X.

Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif as well as his elder brother and former prime minister Nawaz congratulated Modi, in what was Pakistan’s first response to the election results from across the border.

The exchange was initiated by PM Shehbaz, who extended a succinct congratulatory message on X, saying: “Felicitations to @narendramodi on taking oath as the Prime Minister of India.”

His brief message was reminiscent of a similar note that PM Modi had sent to him in March. PM Modi responded with a simple acknowledgement: “Thank you @cmshehbaz for your good wishes.”

The exchange between the leaders expanded with a more detailed message from Nawaz Sharif, who heads the ruling PML-N and had also attended PM Modi’s first inauguration in 2014.

In response to Nawaz’s desire for collective peace in South Asia, Modi reiterated India’s commitment to peace but linked it to a strong stance on security, especially in the context of Delhi’s allegations of cross-border terrorism.

In a notable diplomatic snub, PM Shehbaz was conspicuously absent from the list of regional leaders invited to attend Modi’s oath-taking ceremony on Sunday, highlighting the lingering chill in relations between the two countries.

On ties with China, Jaishankar said India will focus on finding solutions to the border issues with China that have long strained ties between the neighbouring countries.

Source: Dawn News

 

[BouncerGuy]

Deputy PM Dar for ‘normalising’ ties with India

Deputy Prime Minister Ishaq Dar on Tuesday advocated for the normalisation of relations with India, expressing Pakistan’s openness to dialogue, while also outlining conditions aimed at easing tensions between the two nuclear-armed neighbors, who have long been embroiled in disputes.

Speaking at the 51st founding anniversary of the government-run think tank Institute of Strategic Studies Islamabad (ISSI), Mr Dar, who also holds the portfolio of foreign minister, said: “Pakistan does not believe in perpetual hostility. We seek good-neighbourly relations with India on the basis of mutual respect, sovereign equality, and a just and peaceful resolution of the long-standing Jammu and Kashmir dispute.”

Urging a break from the debilitating cycle of conflict, Mr Dar emphasised that India and Pakistan owe it to the people of South Asia to prioritise cooperation over discord.

With the region lagging far behind on human development indices, beset by poverty, unemployment, illiteracy, disease, food and water scarcity, natural disasters, environmental degradation, and climate change, he stressed that collective action was imperative to address these pressing challenges, rather than perpetuating a cycle of hostility.

Mr Dar’s comments marked Pakistan’s first formal articulation of its policy towards India under Modi’s third term, following an initial period of wait and see.

Modi, who is likely to be more focused on domestic agenda given his party’s recent electoral setbacks and coalition government, began with a hardline stance on Pakistan. In response to a goodwill tweet from ruling PML-N chief Mian Nawaz Sharif, who also expressed hopes for peace, Modi underscored his government’s dedication to ensuring the “safety and security” of Indian citizens.

The minister said: “In our view, as the BJP-led NDA government starts a new term, it is time for a sober reflection on the future of India-Pakistan relations and the cross-cutting issues affecting the entire region.”

Striking a firm tone, he warned that while the country remains open to comprehensive dialogue on all outstanding issues, it will not acquiesce to unilateral dictates or permit any attempts at hegemony by India.

“We will also take every step needed to maintain strategic stability in South Asia and would respond effectively and decisively to any ill-considered military misadventure by the ‘Hindutva’ driven dispensation in New Delhi,” he warned.

DAWN

 

[Red-Indian]

Deputy PM Dar for ‘normalising’ ties with India

Deputy Prime Minister Ishaq Dar on Tuesday advocated for the normalisation of relations with India, expressing Pakistan’s openness to dialogue, while also outlining conditions aimed at easing tensions between the two nuclear-armed neighbors, who have long been embroiled in disputes.

Speaking at the 51st founding anniversary of the government-run think tank Institute of Strategic Studies Islamabad (ISSI), Mr Dar, who also holds the portfolio of foreign minister, said: “Pakistan does not believe in perpetual hostility. We seek good-neighbourly relations with India on the basis of mutual respect, sovereign equality, and a just and peaceful resolution of the long-standing Jammu and Kashmir dispute.”

Urging a break from the debilitating cycle of conflict, Mr Dar emphasised that India and Pakistan owe it to the people of South Asia to prioritise cooperation over discord.

With the region lagging far behind on human development indices, beset by poverty, unemployment, illiteracy, disease, food and water scarcity, natural disasters, environmental degradation, and climate change, he stressed that collective action was imperative to address these pressing challenges, rather than perpetuating a cycle of hostility.

Mr Dar’s comments marked Pakistan’s first formal articulation of its policy towards India under Modi’s third term, following an initial period of wait and see.

Modi, who is likely to be more focused on domestic agenda given his party’s recent electoral setbacks and coalition government, began with a hardline stance on Pakistan. In response to a goodwill tweet from ruling PML-N chief Mian Nawaz Sharif, who also expressed hopes for peace, Modi underscored his government’s dedication to ensuring the “safety and security” of Indian citizens.

The minister said: “In our view, as the BJP-led NDA government starts a new term, it is time for a sober reflection on the future of India-Pakistan relations and the cross-cutting issues affecting the entire region.”

Striking a firm tone, he warned that while the country remains open to comprehensive dialogue on all outstanding issues, it will not acquiesce to unilateral dictates or permit any attempts at hegemony by India.

“We will also take every step needed to maintain strategic stability in South Asia and would respond effectively and decisively to any ill-considered military misadventure by the ‘Hindutva’ driven dispensation in New Delhi,” he warned.

DAWN

Some signs of thaw. The Pakistani foreign minister calling for talks without any mention in the speech of Kashmir or Article 370. He's paid the usual lip service on not being dictated to etc. but laid down no preconditions.

Let's see how the Indian side responds.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Some signs of thaw. The Pakistani foreign minister calling for talks without any mention in the speech of Kashmir or Article 370. He's paid the usual lip service on not being dictated to etc. but laid down no preconditions.

Let's see how the Indian side responds.

I hope Indian side tells him to take along leap off of a tall cliff.

I would cross a roaring river on a mud horse before i trust any Pak entity be it "govt" or the establishment.

Vajpayee got rewarded with Kargil. Kongressi clowns got rewarded with Sharm-al-Sheikh disaster.

Pakistan as govt/nation has nothing but ill will towards Inida. They are reaping the rewards and Ignoring them for teh past 10 years has worked well. I see no incentive to change on India's part.

hopefully the WKK clowns will be ignored.

 

[Red-Indian]

I hope Indian side tells him to take along leap off of a tall cliff.

I would cross a roaring river on a mud horse before i trust any Pak entity be it "govt" or the establishment.

Vajpayee got rewarded with Kargil. Kongressi clowns got rewarded with Sharm-al-Sheikh disaster.

Pakistan as govt/nation has nothing but ill will towards Inida. They are reaping the rewards and Ignoring them for teh past 10 years has worked well. I see no incentive to change on India's part.

hopefully the WKK clowns will be ignored.

I agree this is not the time for grand, high profile gestures like previous governments have preferred to signal improving relations. Those are good for very little, raise public expectations and invite attention from bad actors.

If we're going to start talks, they should be low profile and on simple non-controversial issues
- Can we restart co-ordination on Indus water management and building a long term plan to use the waters while conserving environment especially given the water crises on both sides?
- Can we connect powergrids to exchange surplus energy where needed?
- Can we restart humanitarian people exchange services like the Srinagar-Muzaffarbad bus, Delhi-Lahore bus?

If we make some progress in a year or two, we can start talking about a little more advanced stuff like trade, cultural exchanges etc. - that too gradually since opening up the floodgates could really hurt a weak economy like Pakistan's in the short term (though it could benefit in the medium to long term).

We shouldn't even talk about Kashmir for 5 years or so. Hopefully by that time, there's enough momentum that there's public acceptance for the only solution possible - accept fait accompli as things stand on the ground today and make a final resolution. Everyone at a leadership level in both countries - both civilian and military already knows despite posturing from both sides but you have to soothe the emotions.

Then let's the grand gestures! Much as I admire Vajpayee for the leap of faith he took, it was emotional and pointless, possibly even detrimental.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I hope Indian side tells him to take along leap off of a tall cliff.

I would cross a roaring river on a mud horse before i trust any Pak entity be it "govt" or the establishment.

Vajpayee got rewarded with Kargil. Kongressi clowns got rewarded with Sharm-al-Sheikh disaster.

Pakistan as govt/nation has nothing but ill will towards Inida. They are reaping the rewards and Ignoring them for teh past 10 years has worked well. I see no incentive to change on India's part.

hopefully the WKK clowns will be ignored.

I think it was a US politician who said a few years ago that Pakistani establishment would sell their own mothers. Given that, and given that you now have the most compliant and 'up for sale' administration in years, why would India not try to buy some influence in what should be an important part of the region?

 

[Red-Indian]

I think it was a US politician who said a few years ago that Pakistani establishment would sell their own mothers. Given that, and given that you now have the most compliant and 'up for sale' administration in years, why would India not try to buy some influence in what should be an important part of the region?

The issue with that is stability. India can't pay as much as China and will those whom India buys stay bought?

India and China are likely to stay geo-political enemies for the foreseeable future and Pakistan's clearly in the China camp. There's never going to be a tearful rapprochement. The best we can hope for is no festering wounds and no threat of nuclear war launched by the wrong over-excited idiot with his hand on the nuclear button.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The issue with that is stability. India can't pay as much as China and will those whom India buys stay bought?

India and China are likely to stay geo-political enemies for the foreseeable future and Pakistan's clearly in the China camp. There's never going to be a tearful rapprochement. The best we can hope for is no festering wounds and no threat of nuclear war launched by the wrong over-excited idiot with his hand on the nuclear button.

If India has that attitude then can hardly blame Pakistan for pitching in with China - who let's face it - would face exactly the same issues re stability. My view has always been that the more powerful of the two parties should always have the more clout, and that should really be India. Especially given they would also have more cultural and linguistic connection with India above China. But feels to me that emotion and historical baggage gets in the way of making any real progress, and that can be seen by the bickering on these forums and social media in general.

 

[rickroll]

If India has that attitude then can hardly blame Pakistan for pitching in with China - who let's face it - would face exactly the same issues re stability. My view has always been that the more powerful of the two parties should always have the more clout, and that should really be India. Especially given they would also have more cultural and linguistic connection with India above China. But feels to me that emotion and historical baggage gets in the way of making any real progress, and that can be seen by the bickering on these forums and social media in general.

Well put.

 

[rickroll]

India cannot trust Pakistan because no matter what Pakistan is in China's camp.

Pakistan cannot trust India because no matter what of historical baggage and because no matter what India sees Pakistan to be in China's camp.

Seems to me that this is a chicken-egg problem with no path to solution. If we can arrive at this inference with a cursory analysis, I'm sure the politicians in power also know this. Given that, any overtures towards peace talks are nothing but lip service for postures and political gains.

 

[rpant_gabba]

I agree this is not the time for grand, high profile gestures like previous governments have preferred to signal improving relations. Those are good for very little, raise public expectations and invite attention from bad actors.

If we're going to start talks, they should be low profile and on simple non-controversial issues
- Can we restart co-ordination on Indus water management and building a long term plan to use the waters while conserving environment especially given the water crises on both sides?
- Can we connect powergrids to exchange surplus energy where needed?
- Can we restart humanitarian people exchange services like the Srinagar-Muzaffarbad bus, Delhi-Lahore bus?

If we make some progress in a year or two, we can start talking about a little more advanced stuff like trade, cultural exchanges etc. - that too gradually since opening up the floodgates could really hurt a weak economy like Pakistan's in the short term (though it could benefit in the medium to long term).

We shouldn't even talk about Kashmir for 5 years or so. Hopefully by that time, there's enough momentum that there's public acceptance for the only solution possible - accept fait accompli as things stand on the ground today and make a final resolution. Everyone at a leadership level in both countries - both civilian and military already knows despite posturing from both sides but you have to soothe the emotions.

Then let's the grand gestures! Much as I admire Vajpayee for the leap of faith he took, it was emotional and pointless, possibly even detrimental.

This is the full blown WKK stuff I was talking about.

Wasn't all this there before? what make you think their behavior would be any different this time around.

What exactly is India losing by not doing all this stuff you are refering to? you should already know the risk of engaging with Pakistan from the Sherm-al-shaikh disaster

The Scorpion and the Frog - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rpant_gabba]

If India has that attitude then can hardly blame Pakistan for pitching in with China - who let's face it - would face exactly the same issues re stability.

Pak pitched it in with China long time ago and Pak's behavior with China is, how shall we put i nicely, subservient.

My view has always been that the more powerful of the two parties should always have the more clout, and that should really be India.

Let Pak behavior towards India match with its behavior towards China for a decade, then we might have something to work with

Especially given they would also have more cultural and linguistic connection with India above China.

None of that has translated into a peaceful attitude towards India, so whats the point

But feels to me that emotion and historical baggage gets in the way of making any real progress, and that can be seen by the bickering on these forums and social media in gener

Think there is great deal of progress for India and it should make sure that Pak doesn't benefit from any of it.

 

[rpant_gabba]

India cannot trust Pakistan because no matter what Pakistan is in China's camp.

Fact.

Pakistan cannot trust India because no matter what of historical baggage and because no matter what India sees Pakistan to be in China's camp.

Yup, any half intelligent country should not trust its neighbor which started 4 wars in its 70 years existence and this is before we get into the non-state actors.

India is not looking for anything from Pakistan. what value Pakistan bring to the table? art? culture? technology? access to market

Seems to me that this is a chicken-egg problem with no path to solution. If we can arrive at this inference with a cursory analysis, I'm sure the politicians in power also know this. Given that, any overtures towards peace talks are nothing but lip service for postures and political gains.

As Mosharaff Zaidi put it, thanks to disparity in economy, Pakistan doesn't have the policy space it used to for its shenanigans.

Status quo works well for India.

 

[rickroll]

Fact.

Yup, any half intelligent country should not trust its neighbor which started 4 wars in its 70 years existence and this is before we get into the non-state actors.

India is not looking for anything from Pakistan. what value Pakistan bring to the table? art? culture? technology? access to market

As Mosharaff Zaidi put it, thanks to disparity in economy, Pakistan doesn't have the policy space it used to for its shenanigans.

Status quo works well for India.

Pakistan can give India so many advantages but your leaders are either myopic or driven by Hindutva + Islam hatred to see all of that.

1. Access to Iran for trade and oil.
2. Access to lucrative Central Asian markets for oil reserves, defense movement, and trade.
3. Advantage of having a not-hostile neighbor (money saved in all of that Indian defense against Pakistan = money earned).
4. Market for Indian consumer goods or services (even very day cheap goods affordable for individual Pakistanis equates massive market opportunity for India).
5. Better footing against India's bigger and longer term enemy (China) with a less hostile Pakistan.

There could be many more. Imagine if Pakistan was like Nepal or Bhutan as an Indian neighbor. How many new opportunities can that unlock in the long term?

 

[Statpadder Inc]

Pakistan can give India so many advantages but your leaders are either myopic or driven by Hindutva + Islam hatred to see all of that.

1. Access to Iran for trade and oil.
2. Access to lucrative Central Asian markets for oil reserves, defense movement, and trade.
3. Advantage of having a not-hostile neighbor (money saved in all of that Indian defense against Pakistan = money earned).
4. Market for Indian consumer goods or services (even very day cheap goods affordable for individual Pakistanis equates massive market opportunity for India).
5. Better footing against India's bigger and longer term enemy (China) with a less hostile Pakistan.

There could be many more. Imagine if Pakistan was like Nepal or Bhutan as an Indian neighbor. How many new opportunities can that unlock in the long term?

Pakistan literally runs on Hindu hatred lol, a country driven by radical Islamist ideology and have been funding terror attacks and separatists movements in India for decades.

I am sorry but looks like Indian businesses will have to live without the massive Pakistani market

 

[rpant_gabba]

Pakistan can give India so many advantages but your leaders are either myopic or driven by Hindutva + Islam hatred to see all of that.

1. Access to Iran for trade and oil.

There is already trade with Iran. no need to go through Pak. Why should Indian economy become hostage to pakistan

2. Access to lucrative Central Asian markets for oil reserves, defense movement, and trade.

Assuming it is lucrative.. why trust pakistan? It will be safer to go thro' Iran-afganistan.

why let pakistan become a rent seeker? It is that exact "strategic location" card that Pak has been playing for 7+ decades. Klet pakistan continue in its path. rents might be way cheaper in decade or so.

3. Advantage of having a not-hostile neighbor (money saved in all of that Indian defense against Pakistan = money earned).

Pipe dream. Pakistan can't help itself

The Scorpion and the Frog - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Let Pakistan show the "model" behavior for a decade or so, then we can talk.

4. Market for Indian consumer goods or services (even very day cheap goods affordable for individual Pakistanis equates massive market opportunity for India).

once again, does Pak have the money to pay? aren't they going the world with a begging bowl

5. Better footing against India's bigger and longer term enemy (China) with a less hostile Pakistan.

Nah. Indian would have tough time competing with the taller than mountain, sweeter than honey iron brother friendship between Pak and China.

It is more fun to watch CPEC bleed Pak dry.

There could be many more. Imagine if Pakistan was like Nepal or Bhutan as an Indian neighbor. How many new opportunities can that unlock in the long term?

Pakistan had had plenty of opportunity and has always chosen otherwise. becos a ecomically stronger pakistan has nothing but ill will towards india.

Let pakistan break the cycle.

 

[JaDed]

Pakistan can give India so many advantages but your leaders are either myopic or driven by Hindutva + Islam hatred to see all of that.

1. Access to Iran for trade and oil.
2. Access to lucrative Central Asian markets for oil reserves, defense movement, and trade.
3. Advantage of having a not-hostile neighbor (money saved in all of that Indian defense against Pakistan = money earned).
4. Market for Indian consumer goods or services (even very day cheap goods affordable for individual Pakistanis equates massive market opportunity for India).
5. Better footing against India's bigger and longer term enemy (China) with a less hostile Pakistan.

There could be many more. Imagine if Pakistan was like Nepal or Bhutan as an Indian neighbor. How many new opportunities can that unlock in the long term?

If Islam hatred was there for countries outside it would be for gulf countries too.
Pakistani Establishment will have low funding if they become friends with India.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Think there is great deal of progress for India and it should make sure that Pak doesn't benefit from any of it.

I have seen this sentiment expressed a lot from different Indians down the years and really it sums up why Pakistan is in the China camp. Otherwise, like I said earlier, China is probably further from Pakistan from an ideological point of view, but they need allies on their borders on at least one side.

For what it's worth, Pakistan and India would both probably benefit from better ties, but if India is off limits, then there are other nations in Asia which can be equally fruitful trade partners should Pakistan ever get it's act together.

 

[Red-Indian]

This is the full blown WKK stuff I was talking about.

Wasn't all this there before? what make you think their behavior would be any different this time around.

What exactly is India losing by not doing all this stuff you are refering to? you should already know the risk of engaging with Pakistan from the Sherm-al-shaikh disaster

The Scorpion and the Frog - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think the simple facts of geography make some kind of engagement inevitable. Rivers from India to Pakistan and from Pakistan to India, transport costs are miniscule for trade etc.

Nobody's talking about eternal friendships and Prime ministers embracing each other here. Just a basic relationship with a country and people we'll have to exist next to till the end of time.

Any losses and gains will be miniscule for the next 10 years. That doesn't mean you don't make a creeping start. When the US engaged with India through USAID to support the Green Revolution, it had nothing to gain and for close to 40 years, they gained nothing...in fact, we remained firmly in the Soviet camp. There's payoff now though to both sides for not breaking off all engagement.

Protect your interests and take small steps. That's all I'm suggesting.

 

[Red-Indian]

I was reading a blog by one of my favourite authors. That little patch of light and darker orange on the map there contains a third of humanity and rising...could reach 40% by the end of the century given population declines elsewhere. They're all geographically contiguous and could easily ship to each other.

In 50 years, that little patch could be the most important concentration of humanity in the world. Geo-politics, economics, culture etc. could revolve around that region.

Economically, the countries in darker orange are ahead of the rest and even within that Vietnam and Indonesia are further ahead; Phillipines, Bangladesh and India are in the middle; and Pakistan and Myanmar are a distance behind. Some investment in relationships now even if just small seeds in those two countries could have huge payoffs in the future.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think the simple facts of geography make some kind of engagement inevitable. Rivers from India to Pakistan and from Pakistan to India, transport costs are miniscule for trade etc.

Nobody's talking about eternal friendships and Prime ministers embracing each other here. Just a basic relationship with a country and people we'll have to exist next to till the end of time.

Any losses and gains will be miniscule for the next 10 years. That doesn't mean you don't make a creeping start. When the US engaged with India through USAID to support the Green Revolution, it had nothing to gain and for close to 40 years, they gained nothing...in fact, we remained firmly in the Soviet camp. There's payoff now though to both sides for not breaking off all engagement.

Protect your interests and take small steps. That's all I'm suggesting.

Precisely. Regardless of religious or cultural differences (let's face it, 95% of it is religious) every community in the world conducts trade since prehistoric times. Trade and business should be conducted as purely financial transactions unless there is actually a state of war.

 

[Red-Indian]

Precisely. Regardless of religious or cultural differences (let's face it, 95% of it is religious) every community in the world conducts trade since prehistoric times. Trade and business should be conducted as purely financial transactions unless there is actually a state of war.

You have to keep in mind though, it's not India that broke off trade. Through all the hullabaloo of cross-border terrorism, even the Kargil war, some meager trade continued. It was small but useful even in 2019 when Pakistan's idiot Prime Minister decided to cut off even this last thin bit of connection. Of course he was entitled to plenty of bluster about something he could do nothing about in reality except maybe campaign on international forums but there was no need to snap this meagre line.

Now it has to be on Pakistan to offer to restart some trade. It's a huge climbdown yes which the opposition will take huge toll of from the current government but what's the option? India cannot unban what it never banned.

Since Imran's in jail and cannot take full advantage of the opportunity to make political capital of this climbdown, maybe this is the best opportunity. Ishaq Dar's made a decent start. I can't remember the last speech by a Pakistani leader which didn't lay down reinstitution of Article 370 as a pre-condition for talks. Obviously that's a pipedream and non-starter.

 

[Red-Indian]

You have to keep in mind though, it's not India that broke off trade. Through all the hullabaloo of cross-border terrorism, even the Kargil war, some meager trade continued. It was small but useful even in 2019 when Pakistan's idiot Prime Minister decided to cut off even this last thin bit of connection. Of course he was entitled to plenty of bluster about something he could do nothing about in reality except maybe campaign on international forums but there was no need to snap this meagre line.

Now it has to be on Pakistan to offer to restart some trade. It's a huge climbdown yes which the opposition will take huge toll of from the current government but what's the option? India cannot unban what it never banned.

Since Imran's in jail and cannot take full advantage of the opportunity to make political capital of this climbdown, maybe this is the best opportunity. Ishaq Dar's made a decent start. I can't remember the last speech by a Pakistani leader which didn't lay down reinstitution of Article 370 as a pre-condition for talks. Obviously that's a pipedream and non-starter.

If Pakistan takes those first steps though, the onus will be on the India government not to make a huge deal of it and start talks and trade up quietly. It'll be tough for Pakistan to trust Modi after some of his statements and muslim-baiting in the recent elections but the fact of the matter is he's always run a pragmatic foreign policy and the team...even the foreign minister are career diplomats. I do think India will react appropriately but it has to be on Pakistan to make the real first move.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You have to keep in mind though, it's not India that broke off trade. Through all the hullabaloo of cross-border terrorism, even the Kargil war, some meager trade continued. It was small but useful even in 2019 when Pakistan's idiot Prime Minister decided to cut off even this last thin bit of connection. Of course he was entitled to plenty of bluster about something he could do nothing about in reality except maybe campaign on international forums but there was no need to snap this meagre line.

Now it has to be on Pakistan to offer to restart some trade. It's a huge climbdown yes which the opposition will take huge toll of from the current government but what's the option? India cannot unban what it never banned.

Since Imran's in jail and cannot take full advantage of the opportunity to make political capital of this climbdown, maybe this is the best opportunity. Ishaq Dar's made a decent start. I can't remember the last speech by a Pakistani leader which didn't lay down reinstitution of Article 370 as a pre-condition for talks. Obviously that's a pipedream and non-starter.

If we start going backwards with the "he started it" mantra then might as well forget about it. Modi's govt banned Pakistan celebrities from India before that, banned Pakistan players from IPL before even that, and I'm sure there will be more accusations flying about from both sides. When there is a new administration in Pakistan then that should be used to test the waters. Nawaz and the Generals have always been ready to talk money, their principles are the same as India's in reality. Back channel diplomacy should be explored.

 

[rpant_gabba]

I have seen this sentiment expressed a lot from different Indians down the years and really it sums up why Pakistan is in the China camp.

Not sue if you really are that ignorant of history. Pakistan has been China camp since the 1960's, long before India had any economy to speak of.

see here for comparison if GDP/capita

Per capita GDP of India & Pakistan from 1960 to 2019

<i>From a higher per capita GDP of $83.33 in 1960, Pakistan's today lags much behind India which witnessed multi-fold rise its per capita GDP over the years. From 2007, India's per capita GDP has consistently stayed higher than that of Pakistan's.</i>

toi-infographics.indiatimes.com

Otherwise, like I said earlier, China is probably further from Pakistan from an ideological point of view, but they need allies on their borders on at least one side.

Not sure why you think Pakistan and India were idealogically similar. cultural overlap maybe. That cultural overlap didn't make one bit of difference when (jinnah) sent non-state actors into Kashmir in 1947-48, in 1965 when Pak initiated operation gibraltar/grandslam, support of sikh terrorism in the 80's, the islamic terrorism of the 90's. Kargil in 99.

The cultural overlap is a convenient ruse used by Pakistan successfully in the past with idiotic indian governments WKK's. hopefully it will continue to be ignored like it has been for the past 10 years.

For what it's worth, Pakistan and India would both probably benefit from better ties,

Maybe. but pak will benefit disproportionately and stronger pakistan has behaved poorly with India and no reason to expect that will change. Its better for India to have an economically boot strapped pakistan.

but if India is off limits, then there are other nations in Asia which can be equally fruitful trade partners

such as? Sri lanka had to be bailed out by India and in the same boat with chinese debt as pakistan

Bangladesh? nepal? bhutan?

should Pakistan ever get it's act together.

Sure. As soon as hell freezes over.

 

[rpant_gabba]

If we start going backwards with the "he started it" mantra then might as well forget about it.

isn't that what we have been saying

Modi's govt banned Pakistan celebrities from India before that,

like who?

banned Pakistan players from IPL before even that,

Nope. PCB pulled its players from IPL in 2009 and teams chose not to pick them in the future

and I'm sure there will be more accusations flying about from both sides.

the classic equal equal nonsense

When there is a new administration in Pakistan then that should be used to test the waters. Nawaz and the Generals have always been ready to talk money, their principles are the same as India's in reality. Back channel diplomacy should be explored.

Nope. Pakistan should be made to continue reap what they sowed for 7+ decades

 

[rpant_gabba]

If Pakistan takes those first steps though, the onus will be on the India government not to make a huge deal of it and start talks and trade up quietly. It'll be tough for Pakistan to trust Modi after some of his statements and muslim-baiting in the recent elections but the fact of the matter is he's always run a pragmatic foreign policy and the team...even the foreign minister are career diplomats. I do think India will react appropriately but it has to be on Pakistan to make the real first move.

I sense a strong streak of WKK here

It will be difficult for pak to trust modi? but India should trust pak words given their behavor for 7+ decades? Seriously what planet are you on?

 

[Statpadder Inc]

I sense a strong streak of WKK here

What does WKK mean

 

[rpant_gabba]

I think the simple facts of geography make some kind of engagement inevitable. Rivers from India to Pakistan and from Pakistan to India, transport costs are miniscule for trade etc.

Nobody's talking about eternal friendships and Prime ministers embracing each other here. Just a basic relationship with a country and people we'll have to exist next to till the end of time.

Any losses and gains will be miniscule for the next 10 years. That doesn't mean you don't make a creeping start. When the US engaged with India through USAID to support the Green Revolution, it had nothing to gain and for close to 40 years, they gained nothing...in fact, we remained firmly in the Soviet camp. There's payoff now though to both sides for not breaking off all engagement.

Protect your interests and take small steps. That's all I'm suggesting.

Those small steps by India in the past have been used in the past by pakistan to to harm/embarrass India.

One has to really stupid to think that it will be different this time.

 

[rpant_gabba]

What does WKK mean

Wagah Kandle kisser

 

[rpant_gabba]

Precisely. Regardless of religious or cultural differences (let's face it, 95% of it is religious) every community in the world conducts trade since prehistoric times. Trade and business should be conducted as purely financial transactions unless there is actually a state of war.

LMAO.

Sure let me sponsor terrorism/separatism in your country, and do every thing possible to drag your country down. But allow me benefit from the institutions that you have built.

Lets for forget who pressed the religious differences to the front and center

Some serious taqqiya there.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Some serious taqqiya there.

Have you figured out if you are Indian or not yet?

 

[rpant_gabba]

Have you figured out if you are Indian or not yet?

how cute. Didn't I already answer that. try to keep up.

Does the answer change the facts I have stated in my post?

besides I'm talking to a self identified brit, so why does it matter whether I'm indian or not.

 

[rpant_gabba]

I think the simple facts of geography make some kind of engagement inevitable.

US has ignored Cuba for decades. so that nullifies your geography angle

Rivers from India to Pakistan and from Pakistan to India,

? what is the relevance. Pak got one of the most generous treaties ever and still complain non-stop and have tried inidna power projects

transport costs are miniscule for trade etc.

and? What does pak have that is useful for india? do they have money to pay for what they import.

Read up on how negotiations on rail engines went. They were willing to buy from china but wanted to only rent from India.

don't think you have any idea of the idealogical contempt Pak citizens, politicians and establishment have for India. All this recent bon-homie is a con act.

Nobody's talking about eternal friendships and Prime ministers embracing each other here. Just a basic relationship with a country and people we'll have to exist next to till the end of time.

and they have consistenly not hesitated to use that relationship to harm India. tell me why it would be different now?

Any losses and gains will be miniscule for the next 10 years.

Yup. so Why bother.

That doesn't mean you don't make a creeping start.

To what end? what are the positives of pakistan as a nation that makes it worth a creeping start

When the US engaged with India through USAID to support the Green Revolution, it had nothing to gain and for close to 40 years, they gained nothing...in fact, we remained firmly in the Soviet camp.

Hard to believe you making such a bad comparsion. Serious cognitive dissonance and WKK mode

1) Till Nixon came to power, things were pretty good with India's non-aligned stance.

2) India was not out there sending terrorist to US and sponsoring separatism in US

All the USAID was US rehabilitating its image from the Nixon debacle.

There's payoff now though to both sides for not breaking off all engagement.

Neither side was has engaged in direct harm to each other. how hard is that to understand.

Protect your interests and take small steps. That's all I'm suggesting.

Thats exactly what India is doing now.

When it comes to dealing with India, Pak establishment/govt is untrustworthy. period. Until there is sustained effort from Pak to change that, India risks a lot in doing what u suggest and would like an absolute fool when Pak reverts to its old shenanigans.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not sure why you think Pakistan and India were idealogically similar. cultural overlap maybe. That cultural overlap didn't make one bit of difference when (jinnah) sent non-state actors into Kashmir in 1947-48, in 1965 when Pak initiated operation gibraltar/grandslam, support of sikh terrorism in the 80's, the islamic terrorism of the 90's. Kargil in 99.

The cultural overlap is a convenient ruse used by Pakistan successfully in the past with idiotic indian governments WKK's. hopefully it will continue to be ignored like it has been for the past 10 years.

By cultural overlap I mean Pakistanis are culturally still hindus in many aspects. They might chant Allah hu Akbar, but Lakshmi is where the action is.

 

[Red-Indian]

US has ignored Cuba for decades. so that nullifies your geography angle

? what is the relevance. Pak got one of the most generous treaties ever and still complain non-stop and have tried inidna power projects

and? What does pak have that is useful for india? do they have money to pay for what they import.

Read up on how negotiations on rail engines went. They were willing to buy from china but wanted to only rent from India.

don't think you have any idea of the idealogical contempt Pak citizens, politicians and establishment have for India. All this recent bon-homie is a con act.

and they have consistenly not hesitated to use that relationship to harm India. tell me why it would be different now?

Yup. so Why bother.

To what end? what are the positives of pakistan as a nation that makes it worth a creeping start

Hard to believe you making such a bad comparsion. Serious cognitive dissonance and WKK mode

1) Till Nixon came to power, things were pretty good with India's non-aligned stance.

2) India was not out there sending terrorist to US and sponsoring separatism in US

All the USAID was US rehabilitating its image from the Nixon debacle.

Neither side was has engaged in direct harm to each other. how hard is that to understand.

Thats exactly what India is doing now.

When it comes to dealing with India, Pak establishment/govt is untrustworthy. period. Until there is sustained effort from Pak to change that, India risks a lot in doing what u suggest and would like an absolute fool when Pak reverts to its old shenanigans.

If you're asking for guarantees that this time's engagement will be smoother and more fruitful, I'm afraid I can't give you any.

On the other hand, are you suggesting that not talking or a complete lack of connection is a better guarantee of Indian security? That the very act of opening say, undersecretary level diplomatic communication channels guarantees a terror attack? If we can protect our borders while remaining incommunicado, we can protect our borders while talking about small stuff like coordinating river water usage, electricity interchange etc.

Yes the Pakistan Establishment has proven untrustworthy in the past. I would suggest the civilian governments...not so much. In their own bumbling way, they've made genuine attempts. I don't think we're heading for visa free travel in my lifetime but if you make a careful start and it doesn't work...say the Pakistan Establishment suddenly goes back to 'give us Kashmir or no talks', what's the loss? All we've done is gone back to where we started. On the other hand, if there's small progress, who knows where things might end up 20 years from now?

I've often noticed that migrated Indians and Pakistanis are more passionate haters than locals. They have no skin in the game any more and fervent nationalism is their best way to feel attachment to the country they've left.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

I've often noticed that migrated Indians and Pakistanis are more passionate haters than locals. They have no skin in the game any more and fervent nationalism is their best way to feel attachment to the country they've left.

Nah absolutely not lol. I know in the South they love Pakistan but in North India, Gujarat and Maharashtra anti Pak sentiments are higher than ever before. No NRI could match up to that

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Nah absolutely not lol. I know in the South they love Pakistan but in North India, Gujarat and Maharashtra anti Pak sentiments are higher than ever before. No NRI could match up to that

I don't think in the south they love Pakistan, they just don't hold any big hatred for them. Must be good reasons for it, since I am not that familiar with south India, I can't really surmise why that might be. North India I can understand as that was the flashpoint of partition, Maharashtra no idea either.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

I don't think in the south they love Pakistan, they just don't hold any big hatred for them. Must be good reasons for it, since I am not that familiar with south India, I can't really surmise why that might be. North India I can understand as that was the flashpoint of partition, Maharashtra no idea either.

I know the South doesn't love Pak, that was said in jest.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

Maharashtra no idea either.

Maharashtra because of Shivsena and Thackeray and 2008

 

[rpant_gabba]

If you're asking for guarantees that this time's engagement will be smoother and more fruitful, I'm afraid I can't give you any.

You'd be a rank idiot if you did.

On the other hand, are you suggesting that not talking or a complete lack of connection is a better guarantee of Indian security?

Nope. I'm saying it increases the cost for any Pak shenanigans

That the very act of opening say, undersecretary level diplomatic communication channels guarantees a terror attack?

Yes. haven't you seen the script?

"lets not spoil the peace process over some minor incidences"

If we can protect our borders while remaining incommunicado, we can protect our borders while talking about small stuff like coordinating river water usage, electricity interchange etc.

River water usage is already well coordinated through the IWT.

Electricity interchange? Once again, why? Pak behavior is far better when their economy is in trouble and they are dependent on international agencies. International agencies don't have time for terrorist sponsors. any of the things your are talking about will help pak economy and they will back to their old ways.

What is the meaning of the Tamil proverb: Vedhaalam meendum murungai maram ericci?

Answer (1 of 2): Vedhalam means demon. Murungai maram is a type of tall vegetable tree most Tamil houses have at villages. Ericci means “to climb”. This proverb basically means “The demon had climb back the tall tree once again”. It means someone revert back to his troublesome attitude after ...

www.quora.com

Yes the Pakistan Establishment has proven untrustworthy in the past.

no

I would suggest the civilian governments...not so much. In their own bumbling way, they've made genuine attempts.

non sense. Benazir and Nawaz have put on a show while willfully signing off or looking the other way on activities against India.

I don't think we're heading for visa free travel in my lifetime but if you make a careful start and it doesn't work...say the Pakistan Establishment suddenly goes back to 'give us Kashmir or no talks', what's the loss? All we've done is gone back to where we started.

Disagree. There is a critical mass within pak demographics at every level which can't stand peace with India and are powerful enough to disrupt it. Most of the time it is India who pays the price.

Until pak establishment and govt renounce terrorism as a foreign policy tool, India should continue to ignore the land of the pure.

On the other hand, if there's small progress, who knows where things might end up 20 years from now?

I have been hearing this line from gullible idiots since the days of Morarji desai.

I've often noticed that migrated Indians and Pakistanis are more passionate haters than locals. They have no skin in the game any more and fervent nationalism is their best way to feel attachment to the country they've left.

I often noticed that many WKK indian's resort to this line of argument when their points get shredded to bits

 

[rpant_gabba]

By cultural overlap I mean Pakistanis are culturally still hindus in many aspects. They might chant Allah hu Akbar, but Lakshmi is where the action is.

you are not making any sense with this post. not that you normally do anyway.

Aren't the chinese wealthier? pak should be able to get more action from chinese.

Perhaps what Pak needs is blessings of Saraswati. you know, get some grey matter.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Pakistan can give India so many advantages but your leaders are either myopic or driven by Hindutva + Islam hatred to see all of that.

1. Access to Iran for trade and oil.
2. Access to lucrative Central Asian markets for oil reserves, defense movement, and trade.
3. Advantage of having a not-hostile neighbor (money saved in all of that Indian defense against Pakistan = money earned).
4. Market for Indian consumer goods or services (even very day cheap goods affordable for individual Pakistanis equates massive market opportunity for India).
5. Better footing against India's bigger and longer term enemy (China) with a less hostile Pakistan.

There could be many more. Imagine if Pakistan was like Nepal or Bhutan as an Indian neighbor. How many new opportunities can that unlock in the long term?

1.Already have that. Done that. Doing it.

2. Already have that via Iran.

3. India has moved on from Pakistan and now the defense expenditure is to keep China honest.

4. Pakistan isn't a very big market and Pakistan has never bestowed the MFN status on India. Won't do it.

5. Pakistan has billions of dollars of chinese loans. There is no weaning away Pakistan from China.

Our leaders have a great vision and realised that engaging with Pakistan will only give another Kargil or 26/11.