If Pakistan beat England will you credit Waqar Younis or Mickey Arthur?

[Slog]

Malik was going to play anyway. Had Azhar not missed the first two Tests, he would have opened alongside Hafeez like he did in the third Test. Masood would not have played.

Our plans were derailed when Yasir got injured as well, due to which we had to play 3 pacers at Abu Dhabi and not go with the 2+2+1 formula.

We can agree to disagree as to who was he replacing. Actually just for kicks I'll come edge it that you are correct. However that still doesn't negate the fact that this conundrum and several others such as Ajmal ban were huge and problems he dealt with with success and Mickey hasn't shown same aptitude

 

[Slog]

Bhai, even Waqar himself wouldn't take credit as much as you give him.

I can bet my house that if Waqar (insert your favorite personality here) was coaching us in NZ, we would still have lost 2-0 and be 97-8 today.

Waqar was an okay coach.

Nor amazing nor bad, but touring BD, SL etc is not really highly the benchmark for a coaching credential.

That doesn't mean anything whether he takes credit or not. It's nice to see he's humble and not an attention seeker like Mr 3-0 Mohsin Khan.

It's really hilarious to see double standards though. Anything wrong under Waqar was Waqars fault. And wins weren't his success. However they were magically Mohsin khans success a couple of years earlier even though he played all combination and strategy which Waqar employed.

And now coach is again getting a free ride

Id say lets disregard Waqar totally here. Doesn't that still mean Mickey Arthur should be held responsible for the horror show that have been past four matches? What's the point of him being even there if we can't question him for insane selections and batting order shuffling

 

[shaz619]

You should never fail to prepare but at times you will still fail because some things are not in your powers.

Should we have prepared better for NZ? Of course

Did we lose because were not prepared for the green pitches? No, I don't agree

Whether you'll fail or not is besides the point or what someone like me or you thinks, the fact remains that Pakistan did not give themselves a chance. You expected them to fail in England, they prepared well and they reaped the rewards.

Am not saying they'd have won 100% because Allah knows best but what I do believe is that they would have performed 10x better had they prepared well. Batsman who evolve or Bowlers who evolve do so through hard work and preparation, talent and luck can only get you so far.

 

[New Yorker]

That doesn't mean anything whether he takes credit or not. It's nice to see he's humble and not an attention seeker like Mr 3-0 Mohsin Khan.

It's really hilarious to see double standards though. Anything wrong under Waqar was Waqars fault. And wins weren't his success. However they were magically Mohsin khans success a couple of years earlier even though he played all combination and strategy which Waqar employed.

And now coach is again getting a free ride

Id say lets disregard Waqar totally here. Doesn't that still mean Mickey Arthur should be held responsible for the horror show that have been past four matches? What's the point of him being even there if we can't question him for insane selections and batting order shuffling

I think responsibility and blame are two different things. I don't blame Waqar. What is blame good for? It's an entirely backward looking exercise. And quickly gets nasty. But I hold him responsible. Because that was literally his job, to be the person who takes responsibility. Its should be no different with Arthur. If the team performs poorly under him for a prolonged period of time he should be held responsible.

 

[Markhor]

The Waqar defenders couldn't even wait until the end of the Test match I see.

They were nowhere to be seen when we whitewashed West Indies in LOIs (in contrast to the usual humiliations in LOIs under Waqar) but suddenly pop up when Pakistan's batsmen predictably struggled in these tough overseas tours that Waqar luckily dodged thanks to being unceremoniously sacked for a second time.

Pray tell what tactical genius the Alex Ferguson of world cricket would've come up with to defeat the Australians in their backyard if he was in Arthur's shoes ? Get them to run more laps around the ground ? Write another one of his famous reports blasting the system despite being part of the system he laments and did nothing to change ?

The same posters defending Waqar whilst criticising our bowling now conveniently forget under Waqar's tenure, Pakistan's bowling became the SECOND WORST in the world in ODIs, even below Associate teams:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;team_view=bowl;template=results;type=team

The same posters criticising Rahat Ali fail to mention he was Waqar's golden boy for years who was persisted with despite other superior options knocking on the door in domestic who weren't lucky enough to be given this preferential treatment.

Obviously Arthur will not make drastic changes having not even a year in the job nor seen closely the talent in domestic. Yes there have been some selection errors like Nawaz in Tests despite his batting being nowhere near good enough for Test cricket - but its hardly a sackable offence unlike Waqar who made selection blunders as routine as 5 fruit and veg a day (Rafatullah, Iftikhar, Hafeez, Masood, recalling Sami and many more etc).

 

[Abid Z]

I can't see anything the mickey has brought to the table. You could argue Sami aslam and Barbara azam but they were on the cusp of selection anyway. Either he is an inept coach and the Australians were right to get rid of him, or he wants to make some serious changes in the lineup and direction of the team but is unable to and has his hands tied.

The main job of a team coach is to build up a squad and rotate them to suit pitches and conditions. Mickey it seems is heavily reliant on one bowler, Yasir to deliver the goods and there is no other besides him. Wahab and Amir in bursts are never gonna run through a side.

 

[New Yorker]

I can't see anything the mickey has brought to the table. You could argue Sami aslam and Barbara azam but they were on the cusp of selection anyway. Either he is an inept coach and the Australians were right to get rid of him, or he wants to make some serious changes in the lineup and direction of the team but is unable to and has his hands tied.

The main job of a team coach is to build up a squad and rotate them to suit pitches and conditions. Mickey it seems is heavily reliant on one bowler, Yasir to deliver the goods and there is no other besides him. Wahab and Amir in bursts are never gonna run through a side.

Sohail, Nawaz. That's four players in four series, of which three have already earned an extended
run based on their perfomances so far. Sounds reasonable to me. If he can get rid of Rahat, Waqar's
darling, he will have done an even greater service to the team.

 

[New Yorker]

I can't see anything the mickey has brought to the table. You could argue Sami aslam and Barbara azam but they were on the cusp of selection anyway. Either he is an inept coach and the Australians were right to get rid of him, or he wants to make some serious changes in the lineup and direction of the team but is unable to and has his hands tied.

The main job of a team coach is to build up a squad and rotate them to suit pitches and conditions. Mickey it seems is heavily reliant on one bowler, Yasir to deliver the goods and there is no other besides him. Wahab and Amir in bursts are never gonna run through a side.

The important thing is that he makes good on his policy of renewal. There will be hits and misses, which PPers will pounce on with their usual ferociousness. But the important things is long term development and I can't quite yet see what he has done wrong on that count.

 

[Abid Z]

Sohail, Nawaz. That's four players in four series, of which three have already earned an extended
run based on their perfomances so far. Sounds reasonable to me. If he can get rid of Rahat, Waqar's
darling, he will have done an even greater service to the team.

You know I hope you are right. 6 months is not a long time really.

Sohail can break down anytime, in fact if he is the one backed by Mickey then why didn't he select him for this match? Would have been ideal instead of Rahat.

Nawaz I'm not so sure of yet. We will leave the odi side out of this discussion. Your point is that give it time and mickey will bring in players that reflect his will and his mark? I think he needs to be more ambitious and go all Andy flower and Duncan fletcher on the pcb and start making some serious changes at domestic coaching and selection level. Talent spot and overhaul old systems. So far looks like he's on a road to nowhere with merry go round of mediocrities. Very much like waqar and whatmore