India’s government cuts Muslim rulers from Indian history books

[Cpt. Rishwat]

India’s government cuts Muslim rulers from Indian history books

India’s Hindu-nationalist government is removing references in school textbooks to Muslim rulers who dominated the country for centuries, in an apparent effort to play down their achievements, an investigation has found.

In the third review of the school curriculum in five years, chapters detailing the Mughal dynasties that ruled much of India from the early 16th to mid 19th centuries have been heavily excised, as have references to earlier sultans and the rise of Islam.

The changes, overseen by a government body, echo the anti-Muslim rhetoric of the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government, which has complained that historians have long glorified invaders and Mughals at the expense of the ancient Hindu civilisations that preceded them.

The National Council of Educational Research and Training (NCERT) said that “rationalisation” of the textbooks was necessary to ease the heavy curriculum load on pupils after the coronavirus pandemic disrupted children’s education. Explanations of persecution based on class or gender, political protest movements and periods of turmoil were also removed, The Indian Express newspaper reported, suggesting that the changes may have had an ideological motive.

The Indian Express scrutinised 21 existing history, political science and sociology textbooks for secondary school pupils aged 11 to 17 (classes 6 to 12 in the Indian system) and compared them to a table of revisions proposed by NCERT.

Among the most obvious changes were those related to Muslim rulers and their achievements. In one textbook aimed at Class 7 students, several pages on the Delhi Sultanate, which ruled between 1206 and 1526 and included many dynasties such as the Mamluks, Tughlaqs, Khaljis and Lodis, have been removed.

The chapter relating to the Mughals was also cut. It included a table spanning two pages listing their milestones and the achievements of emperors such as Babur, Humayun, Akbar, Jahangir, Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb.

In the Class 11 history book a chapter dealing with the rise of Islam from Egypt to Afghanistan and the Islamic civilisation from AD600 to AD1200 was taken out, the newspaper said.

Many historians have credited the Mughals with creating a rich culture in India, including monuments such as the Taj Mahal and the Red Fort in Delhi. They were finally removed from the throne by the British after the 1857 War of Independence.

India has traditionally had a secular education curriculum but the BJP, headed by Narendra Modi, the prime minister, has been blamed for stirring up anti-Muslim sentiment in recent years and has made clear that it regards the “glorious” period of Indian history as having occurred before Muslim rule.

Earlier this month Amit Shah, the home minister, suggested that prominence was given to Mughals at the cost of ancient dynasties and empires such as the Pandyas, Cholas, Mauryas, Guptas and Ahoms.

“This exercise was done very professionally with the help of external experts,” Dinesh Saklani, NCERT’s director, told The Indian Express, adding a similar exercise to reduce the curriculum burden was carried out for maths and science.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...im-rulers-from-indian-history-books-wb073lwv7

The rewriting of history continues in India.

 

[MP2011]

Sanghis think they'll change the history.

Lol, they won't be able to, even if they tried their hardest.

History is what it is, you can't change it.

 

[dildilpak]

The rewriting of history continues in India.

Rewriting history is horrible but this criticism would make sense if kids in Pakistan are actually learning the pre-partition history of the country including its Hindu origin & the erstwhile Hindu rulers/ monuments. Does that happen?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Rewriting history is horrible but this criticism would make sense if kids in Pakistan are actually learning the pre-partition history of the country including its Hindu origin & the erstwhile Hindu rulers/ monuments. Does that happen?

This is true as well. You don't learn anything by ignoring actual history, it holds a nation back wallowing in ignorance. Pre-Islamic India also had many positive aspects, Mughal rulers often adopted some of them.

 

[JaDed]

No offense but he is right about the Cholas, North Indians are absolutely clueless about rich Southern Dynasties.

 

[JaDed]

This is true as well. You don't learn anything by ignoring actual history, it holds a nation back wallowing in ignorance. Pre-Islamic India also had many positive aspects, Mughal rulers often adopted some of them.

I’ll give you an example, I can name all the Mughal rulers from Babar onwards but can’t rename the Cholas..that was the importance given..

 

[Local.Dada]

This is true as well. You don't learn anything by ignoring actual history, it holds a nation back wallowing in ignorance. Pre-Islamic India also had many positive aspects, Mughal rulers often adopted some of them.

Is your concern India is turning into Pakistan? Wow. That’s the best back handed compliment we Indians have got from you

 

[Local.Dada]

I’ll give you an example, I can name all the Mughal rulers from Babar onwards but can’t rename the Cholas..that was the importance given..

Also there seems to be a huge leap and lost history between Ashoka-Chandragupta to the beginning of the Islamic rule and then after Aurangazeb and a few mentions of Shivaji it again directly jumps to European rule. Maybe some footnote mentions of Vijayanagara empire and Sikh rule under Maharaja Ranjit Singh. That’s about it.

 

[MP2011]

Rewriting history is horrible but this criticism would make sense if kids in Pakistan are actually learning the pre-partition history of the country including its Hindu origin & the erstwhile Hindu rulers/ monuments. Does that happen?

This is deplorable too.

One can't change history just like that.

 

[Technics 1210]

Lost history : Emails were invented 3000 years ago.

 

[Stewie]

The fact is India has been pillaged by outsiders for years and years and years. And now the locals have decided they dont want to even talk about those people. Lets not forget these rulers were outsiders and not natives to the subcontinent.

 

[Local.Dada]

The fact is India has been pillaged by outsiders for years and years and years. And now the locals have decided they dont want to even talk about those people. Lets not forget these rulers were outsiders and not natives to the subcontinent.

That applies to Pakistan also. However it depends if most of the locals in Pakistan with names like Bajwa, Cheema, Rana, Rao etc see themselves as natives or as outsiders.

 

[Champ_Pal]

South Empires and kingdoms are completely ignored by Indian History textbooks. For them, it is either Akbar (If they want to paint a rosy picture) or Aurangazeb.

Mughals did not enrich anything except themselves. They built monuments to glorify themselves. Enrichment happens when the country advances in Science, Warfare and trade. Nothing of such happened.

I give it to them that they enriched the cuisine and created a blend of Indian and Persian/Arabic cooking styles.

 

[Technics 1210]

South Empires and kingdoms are completely ignored by Indian History textbooks. For them, it is either Akbar (If they want to paint a rosy picture) or Aurangazeb.

Mughals did not enrich anything except themselves. They built monuments to glorify themselves. Enrichment happens when the country advances in Science, Warfare and trade. Nothing of such happened.

I give it to them that they enriched the cuisine and created a blend of Indian and Persian/Arabic cooking styles.

By this logic Romans and Egyptians didn't enrich either. Egyptian monuments are all about glorifying the Pharaohs, and the Romans glorifying debauchery and Emperors.

Think we need more than a history lesson here.

 

[jeetu]

I last opened NCERT in 80's so my memory is bit foggy. Mughals featured good amount in it. However majority of it were dedicated to Akbar. There was bit about Babar , Shahjahan featured a bit more than others barring Akbar. Aurangzeb and Bahadurshah Zafar had few lines among them.
Among older Islamic ruler i can only recall that that there were bit about Gauri , Qutbuddin Aibak and Ibrahim Lodi.
Among medieval history , RanaPratap was mentioned , various battles of Panipat.

South and East Indian history featured even less. There was bit about Chola Empire but nothing in detail.
In comparison British Empire featured alot pretty much every Viceroy from Curzon to Mountbatton were covered in details.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I last opened NCERT in 80's so my memory is bit foggy. Mughals featured good amount in it. However majority of it were dedicated to Akbar. There was bit about Babar , Shahjahan featured a bit more than others barring Akbar. Aurangzeb and Bahadurshah Zafar had few lines among them.
Among older Islamic ruler i can only recall that that there were bit about Gauri , Qutbuddin Aibak and Ibrahim Lodi.
Among medieval history , RanaPratap was mentioned , various battles of Panipat.

South and East Indian history featured even less. There was bit about Chola Empire but nothing in detail.
In comparison British Empire featured alot pretty much every Viceroy from Curzon to Mountbatton were covered in details.

British Empire was considered favourably by Hindus because they felt it gave them an opportunity to close out the long centuries of Mughal rule with British help. This was actually mentioned by that scholar who did the youtube video about threats about hindutva in America.

 

[Champ_Pal]

By this logic Romans and Egyptians didn't enrich either. Egyptian monuments are all about glorifying the Pharaohs, and the Romans glorifying debauchery and Emperors.

Think we need more than a history lesson here.

Romans built Aquiducts, public sanitation, Roads and Highways, Laid the foundations for modern uniform Legal system, elected representatives etc.

What has Mughals done outside of building monuments and tombs for themselves and their 14th wife?

Mughals were only 500 years old. Started in 15th - 16th century. Romans were 2000 years old and Egyptians were even older than that. Yet they achieved more than Mughals could ever do or even think of.

 

[Technics 1210]

Romans built Aquiducts, public sanitation, Roads and Highways, Laid the foundations for modern uniform Legal system, elected representatives etc.

What has Mughals done outside of building monuments and tombs for themselves and their 14th wife?

Mughals were only 500 years old. Started in 15th - 16th century. Romans were 2000 years old and Egyptians were even older than that. Yet they achieved more than Mughals could ever do or even think of.

The Mughals united a decentralised India under one domain, and brought riches with it.

Empires are not just about inventions.

No Mughals No India.

 

[JaDed]

British Empire was considered favourably by Hindus because they felt it gave them an opportunity to close out the long centuries of Mughal rule with British help. This was actually mentioned by that scholar who did the youtube video about threats about hindutva in America.

Not really.. British have always been hated across India for the colonial issues, our movies still bash them.

 

[jeetu]

British Empire was considered favourably by Hindus because they felt it gave them an opportunity to close out the long centuries of Mughal rule with British help. This was actually mentioned by that scholar who did the youtube video about threats about hindutva in America.

Actually no , even at young age it was taught that the major difference between Mughal rulers absorbed themselves here and kept Indian wealth in India , whereas British Empire tend to carry precious things back to England. So it didn't put Britishers in good light at all. Perhaps it was the time when education was started getting huge priority so people in power felt that knowing English and English history will be more useful. Also Gandhi movie (1982) just came out just few years back and it showed British brutality like no one has seen before.
In mid 80's Congress was ruling with high majority and BJP was reduced to 2 seats. In those days there was no internet only 30 min of TV news and few newspaper were the only source information outside. So whatever was taught to us , we accepted as whole truth.

 

[topspin]

As Pakistanis, we haven't got a leg to stand on when you consider the fact that all of our records relating pre-Islamic history are obsolete.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not really.. British have always been hated across India for the colonial issues, our movies still bash them.

You are talking about movies made in the 20th century. I think the scholars will have a better idea of the mindset of the times. You can well imagine even if Hindus weren't great admirers of the British, at the time they might have welcomed a third party who might unseat the Moghuls. We Brits invented divide and rule, it would be very easy to promise more power to Hindus in a new era and subsequently take them out of any meaningful resistance.

 

[jeetu]

As Pakistanis, we haven't got a leg to stand on when you consider the fact that all of our records relating pre-Islamic history are obsolete.

If its true then its sad that young Pakistani students are denied of knowing about Harappa , Mohenjodaro etc because that is where civilization in subcontinent began. I wish they were in India so i could visit places like these. Also to deny them about Taxila , Alexander , Maurayan , Gupta empire is taking them away from their heritage. Atleast now a days a simple Wikipedia give tell them of their rich history.

 

[RajBan]

The Mughals united a decentralised India under one domain, and brought riches with it.

Empires are not just about inventions.

No Mughals No India.

Other than Akbar, other Mughal rulers were really not great administrators. Infact popular history has been kind to Mughals and twisted in their favour even till this day so much so that most able ruler in Punjab-Bengal belt during that era has been Sher Shah who has been ignored in general obviously because he was competitor to the Mughal throne. But what Sher Shah did during his short tenure was simply unmatched by majority of the Mughal rulers.

 

[jeetu]

Other than Akbar, other Mughal rulers were really not great administrators. Infact popular history has been kind to Mughals and twisted in their favour even till this day so much so that most able ruler in Punjab-Bengal belt during that era has been Sher Shah who has been ignored in general obviously because he was competitor to the Mughal throne. But what Sher Shah did during his short tenure was simply unmatched by majority of the Mughal rulers.

Sher Shah Suri's biggest achievement is developing Grand Trunk Road. It is still being heavily used today. I read about it in history , i hope this is not deleted.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

As Pakistanis, we haven't got a leg to stand on when you consider the fact that all of our records relating pre-Islamic history are obsolete.

You already said you are a Brit not a Pakistani, so it is disingenuous to say "we haven't got a leg to stand on". As a fellow Brit I don't disagree, I have already made a similar point, but let's not deflect otherwise this timely article published by UK's most respected newspaper will get sidetracked. We can see this is already happening and it's not helpful to discuss what is happening in current India.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If its true then its sad that young Pakistani students are denied of knowing about Harappa , Mohenjodaro etc because that is where civilization in subcontinent began. I wish they were in India so i could visit places like these. Also to deny them about Taxila , Alexander , Maurayan , Gupta empire is taking them away from their heritage. Atleast now a days a simple Wikipedia give tell them of their rich history.

See above post.

 

[jeetu]

See above post.

History books tend to get altered by government in power , which is a sad fact. However world is a open place now and such knowledge cannot be hidden anymore unless someone lives in North Korea etc.
For many Indian students studying history stops at 10th class. Students who opts for Science and Commerce stream history is not even in the syllabus. Even Hindi is not there.
I took science stream in 11th class . So in 11th-12th I had only 5 subjects. Physics , Chemistry , Maths , English and Engg (mechanical) Drawing.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

I’ll give you an example, I can name all the Mughal rulers from Babar onwards but can’t rename the Cholas..that was the importance given..

That’s nothing to do with religion and has to do with recency bias.

Greatest extent of Chola empire was 3000+ years ago and there isn’t as much concrete information about it as there is about Mughals or British. That is the reason recent empires get more mention in history books. Another reason is that there are multiple historical texts, monuments etc about the recent empires which make it easier to study.

In most countries whether it’s Europe or Asia, there is a recency bias. For example in UK a lot of importance is given to Middle Ages and industrial revolution era despite Britain at one point being part of arguably the greatest empire or the Roman Empire.

To conclude the point here is that there isn’t a conspiracy element to everything.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

I last opened NCERT in 80's so my memory is bit foggy. Mughals featured good amount in it. However majority of it were dedicated to Akbar. There was bit about Babar , Shahjahan featured a bit more than others barring Akbar. Aurangzeb and Bahadurshah Zafar had few lines among them.
Among older Islamic ruler i can only recall that that there were bit about Gauri , Qutbuddin Aibak and Ibrahim Lodi.
Among medieval history , RanaPratap was mentioned , various battles of Panipat.

South and East Indian history featured even less. There was bit about Chola Empire but nothing in detail.
In comparison British Empire featured alot pretty much every Viceroy from Curzon to Mountbatton were covered in details.

Yes and there is a simple reason for that.

There just is more information about the eras you mentioned. And there will obv be a recency bias.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

History books tend to get altered by government in power , which is a sad fact. However world is a open place now and such knowledge cannot be hidden anymore unless someone lives in North Korea etc.
For many Indian students studying history stops at 10th class. Students who opts for Science and Commerce stream history is not even in the syllabus. Even Hindi is not there.
I took science stream in 11th class . So in 11th-12th I had only 5 subjects. Physics , Chemistry , Maths , English and Engg (mechanical) Drawing.

My point is that this is a thread about India not Pakistan. When The Times does an article about Pakistan govt altering history then by all means post it up here and we can discuss it on the day.

The article posted in the OP is actually printed and published online TODAY in one of the world's most respected news outlets.

 

[Major]

India shouldnt go down the pakistan route. I cant critisize them because our country did the same.

We only concentrate on mughals and not on other rulers. The irnoic thing about our history is that the pre partion is centered around delhi and bengal.... Western british india, or present day Pakistan isnt even focussed.......

Everything that congress did, gandhi did or nehru did is heavily critisized by us and doesnt even try to focus on thei viewpoint...

Indian shouldnt commit the same mistake that Pakistan did with its history curriculum.

Although the mughal history is the most boring and useless history that exists.....

 

[Major]

If its true then its sad that young Pakistani students are denied of knowing about Harappa , Mohenjodaro etc because that is where civilization in subcontinent began. I wish they were in India so i could visit places like these. Also to deny them about Taxila , Alexander , Maurayan , Gupta empire is taking them away from their heritage. Atleast now a days a simple Wikipedia give tell them of their rich history.

The mentioned civilizations were never taught...

Many posters around here that claim to be pakistani dont even understand the concept that by identity we are indians as pakistani identity isnt an established one or doesnt even exist....

Like how middle eastern are arabs.....

 

[cricketjoshila]

No offense but he is right about the Cholas, North Indians are absolutely clueless about rich Southern Dynasties.

Cholas? If you read NCERT you will find little mention of Cholas Palas Karkotaks etc and cursory mention of Rashtrakutas Vijaynagar Chalukyas.

Medieval history is mostly about Mughals and Delhi Sultanate.

Infact Indian history in ncert books are Mauryas Guptas Mughals and British rule. Rest everything is mentioned in few lines to pages, with the exception of IVC.

 

[jeetu]

My point is that this is a thread about India not Pakistan. When The Times does an article about Pakistan govt altering history then by all means post it up here and we can discuss it on the day.

The article posted in the OP is actually printed and published online TODAY in one of the world's most respected news outlets.

My last reply to you doesn't mention Pakistan even indirectly. As a person who likes history i don't like it when people in power alter it. However history was a pretty tough subject even during my time , so much to memories and worst part was that it was coupled with Geography and Civics. So i am glad if parts of it gets trimmed down. I don't want my son to be subject to similar horror.
When time is right i can show him history what school skipped. So many informative videos on youtube etc.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

India shouldnt go down the pakistan route. I cant critisize them because our country did the same.

WRONG.

That's exactly why you can criticise them. Another lame attempt to deflect, but you'd be doing India more of a service by saying Pakistan policy is wrong and India shouldn't follow suit. But here you are saying you can't criticise them for following in Pakistan's footsteps.

 

[JaDed]

Cholas? If you read NCERT you will find little mention of Cholas Palas Karkotaks etc and cursory mention of Rashtrakutas Vijaynagar Chalukyas.

Medieval history is mostly about Mughals and Delhi Sultanate.

Infact Indian history in ncert books are Mauryas Guptas Mughals and British rule. Rest everything is mentioned in few lines to pages, with the exception of IVC.

That’s exactly what my point was..

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My last reply to you doesn't mention Pakistan even indirectly. As a person who likes history i don't like it when people in power alter it. However history was a pretty tough subject even during my time , so much to memories and worst part was that it was coupled with Geography and Civics. So i am glad if parts of it gets trimmed down. I don't want my son to be subject to similar horror.
When time is right i can show him history what school skipped. So many informative videos on youtube etc.

Your last reply was a continuation of a previous reply which definitely did mention Pakistan. You are just playing games with words here.

 

[cricketjoshila]

You are talking about movies made in the 20th century. I think the scholars will have a better idea of the mindset of the times. You can well imagine even if Hindus weren't great admirers of the British, at the time they might have welcomed a third party who might unseat the Moghuls. We Brits invented divide and rule, it would be very easy to promise more power to Hindus in a new era and subsequently take them out of any meaningful resistance.

You didn't invent divide and rule. It was invented by White colonial British rulers who ruled over your ancestors.

British rule is hated across India without exception and Audrey Truschke was thrown out of India for making offensive claims and statements.

And Indians dont take dictations on their history from US or UK citizens, native or Immigrants.

 

[cricketjoshila]

That’s exactly what my point was..

See British rule was mentioned to associate congress with the struggle.

Mughal rule was glorified for "secular" reasons.

History should be told as it is.

 

[jeetu]

Cholas? If you read NCERT you will find little mention of Cholas Palas Karkotaks etc and cursory mention of Rashtrakutas Vijaynagar Chalukyas.

Medieval history is mostly about Mughals and Delhi Sultanate.

Infact Indian history in ncert books are Mauryas Guptas Mughals and British rule. Rest everything is mentioned in few lines to pages, with the exception of IVC.

So true.
I was watching video about SriLankan history yesterday. They mentioned more about Southern Indian kings then our history books. I had no clue about Ahom kings till i started playing Geeogussr 2 years back.

 

[Major]

WRONG.

That's exactly why you can criticise them. Another lame attempt to deflect, but you'd be doing India more of a service by saying Pakistan policy is wrong and India shouldn't follow suit. But here you are saying you can't criticise them for following in Pakistan's footsteps.

I dont get it who is deflecting?

On a pakistani forum whatever is posted would be from our perspect no matter how hard some may try they are not pakistanis.

Its like my house is a mess but im critisizing others for making their house a mess... Maybe i should concentrate on fixing my own house before critisizing others..

 

[jeetu]

That’s nothing to do with religion and has to do with recency bias.

Greatest extent of Chola empire was 3000+ years ago and there isn’t as much concrete information about it as there is about Mughals or British. That is the reason recent empires get more mention in history books. Another reason is that there are multiple historical texts, monuments etc about the recent empires which make it easier to study.

In most countries whether it’s Europe or Asia, there is a recency bias. For example in UK a lot of importance is given to Middle Ages and industrial revolution era despite Britain at one point being part of arguably the greatest empire or the Roman Empire.

To conclude the point here is that there isn’t a conspiracy element to everything.

Another great empire which barely gets mentioned is Genghis Khan and his sucessors. Which is pretty odd considering the land mass they held at their peak.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You didn't invent divide and rule. It was invented by White colonial British rulers who ruled over your ancestors.

British rule is hated across India without exception and Audrey Truschke was thrown out of India for making offensive claims and statements.

And Indians dont take dictations on their history from US or UK citizens, native or Immigrants.

Brits who are born to the soil are Brits, regardless of previous ancestry 1000 years ago. Your type still probably think Michael Chang was a Chinese tennis player, or that Martina Navratilova was a Czech not a proud US women's champion. Do you think Priti Patel is still an Indian by the way? Or Rishi Sunak?

Once again, cheap racism and Nazi racist ideology is disturbingly coming to the fore.

 

[PakLFC]

Denial can not change history. Everyone especially historians will keep reminding the history of India to hardcore Hindu's. I understand it is humiliating that a handful of Muslim's ruled India for centuries. I am no big fan of Mughal's by the way only that them getting under the skin of certain people on this site and Hindu fundo's is so pleasing.

 

[jeetu]

History is told from country to country differently.
I reminded of incident when my aunt visited London to meet his brother. As it turned out my cousin was studying about Jallianwala Bagh massacre. As it turned out English teachers were quoting causality figure less than a tenth of Indian figures even less that in Gandhi movie which was essentially a British production. My aunt being a Indian history teacher pointed out this anomaly. My cousin pointed out this to his English teacher next day and there was a bit of showdown between them.

 

[jeetu]

Denial can not change history. Everyone especially historians will keep reminding the history of India to hardcore Hindu's. I understand it is humiliating that a handful of Muslim's ruled India for centuries. I am no big fan of Mughal's by the way only that them getting under the skin of certain people on this site and Hindu fundo's is so pleasing.

I don't find it humiliating because that's what history teaches us. Mughals , British ruled over India because they had superior technology with weapons and used better strategy. Most civilizations like Egyptian , Roman etc faired worse and are now extinct. Mughals , British empire left many good things too. Mughal empire built many impressive monuments. British unified India into huge country. Even with partitions India still remains 7th largest country in the world. If not for them Indian subcontinent might be divided into tons of smaller warring countries.

 

[the Great Khan]

mughals didnt do anything..just came over had a massive party and then left..chandragupta maurya on the other hand invented the quantum computer which is still hidden under the taj mahal waiting to be found..
Also shivaji was actually a superhuman who took on the mughals singlehandedly in one battle but he found himself outnumbered. Just when Aurangzeb was about to snatch the infinity stones from him, all of his mates appeared and defeated the Mughal menace once and for all..this is commemorated all across India..the americans even copied the story but with chris evans as shivaji..

people dont know real history and should do some research..I have also read and researched that the TaJ mahal is actually made from moon rock. This was transported down to earth by a great Hindu king who used his space bridge..

 

[pillionrider]

Discovery of India by one of the foremost intellectuals of India - Nehru - taught me more about India than any of my History text books.

I recommend it, especially to BJP supporters. Nothing wrong in learning from one of the best. After all, even the great Vajpayee could be called Nehruvian

 

[Romali_rotti]

Brits who are born to the soil are Brits, regardless of previous ancestry 1000 years ago. Your type still probably think Michael Chang was a Chinese tennis player, or that Martina Navratilova was a Czech not a proud US women's champion. Do you think Priti Patel is still an Indian by the way? Or Rishi Sunak?

Once again, cheap racism and Nazi racist ideology is disturbingly coming to the fore.

End of the day Cap, you still not a Caucasian and it was the Caucasian Brits that conquered not Pakistani Britstanis like you..

It is what it is Bruh, nothing to be ashamed off, we in the same boat..

 

[Romali_rotti]

Discovery of India by one of the foremost intellectuals of India - Nehru - taught me more about India than any of my History text books.

I recommend it, especially to BJP supporters. Nothing wrong in learning from one of the best. After all, even the great Vajpayee could be called Nehruvian

Mistakes made by Nehru:

- Americans were ready to help the Indians be the next upcoming world leader, Kennedy offered nuclear technology to India before the Chinese had it, however Congress government said no thank you.

- Americans were ready to get India a seat in the UNSC, however Nehru and Congress said no thank you and even said that China's need to be a UNSC is a more important that ours.

- The entire Kashmir region legally became part of India, however Nehru chose to only take 60 percent of the land and leave the rest to Pakistan.

The Side effects from the above:

When India/China went to war after India China Bhai Bhai and got beaten hands down, Nehru went running to Kennedy to ask his assistance.

China is now Vetoing India on a lot of crucial issues thanks to the UNSC seat which they got which the Nehru government said they did not want.

Kashmir issue will be a raging issue between India and Pakistan till the end of time.


Now I do agree that going all in on with the Americans would have had its consequences however, the benefit would have been that, had there been cooperation with the Americans, present day India would have in a much better position today.

To say Nehru is the best is quite disturbing as India is still stuck in quick sand due to a lot of things Nehru and his Congress party has done.

 

[jeetu]

i never read Discovery of India. But the series based on it was excellent. It featured many good performers. Standout episode to me was Naseeruddin Shah Shah as Shivaji confronting Om Puri playing Aurangzeb.

Regarding Nehru , he was mixed bag. He did a lot of good things , however the errors he made have lasting impact as Romali_rotti mentioned in above post.

 

[cricketjoshila]

So true.
I was watching video about SriLankan history yesterday. They mentioned more about Southern Indian kings then our history books. I had no clue about Ahom kings till i started playing Geeogussr 2 years back.

What is Geeogussr?

You just need to look up who were the education ministers of India till 1980s, you will understand why such things happened.

Do you know that the topper at the Indian Military Academy is awarded the Lachit Borphukab Medal. Its named after the great Ahom General who kept the Ahom empire from being subjugated by Mughals.

 

[PakLFC]

I don't find it humiliating because that's what history teaches us. Mughals , British ruled over India because they had superior technology with weapons and used better strategy. Most civilizations like Egyptian , Roman etc faired worse and are now extinct. Mughals , British empire left many good things too. Mughal empire built many impressive monuments. British unified India into huge country. Even with partitions India still remains 7th largest country in the world. If not for them Indian subcontinent might be divided into tons of smaller warring countries.

I am glad that you are wise enough to call a spade a spade. I mean the Mughals gave India so much in terms of culture, language and culinary. Actually it was the Mughal's that extended India's borders much before the Brits did. Please tell the RSS how you feel coz they need to hear it from sensible Indian's like you.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Brits who are born to the soil are Brits, regardless of previous ancestry 1000 years ago. Your type still probably think Michael Chang was a Chinese tennis player, or that Martina Navratilova was a Czech not a proud US women's champion. Do you think Priti Patel is still an Indian by the way? Or Rishi Sunak?

Once again, cheap racism and Nazi racist ideology is disturbingly coming to the fore.

You are pakistani origin brit whose ancestors were ruled by the Brits. Neither you conquered anything nor did you devise the policy of divide and rule. Stop trying to steal the military achievements of white native brits.

We are trying to reduce glorification of the racist bigoted invaders like Timurids. Dont worry.

 

[Champ_Pal]

The Mughals united a decentralised India under one domain, and brought riches with it.

Empires are not just about inventions.

No Mughals No India.

I don't think so. India was united by culture. Not by someone ruling all of them. Without the Dharmic culture as a common thread, the country would have been split into 100 pieces when British left.

Even without Mughals Indian people would have united for survival.

 

[jeetu]

What is Geeogussr?

You just need to look up who were the education ministers of India till 1980s, you will understand why such things happened.

Do you know that the topper at the Indian Military Academy is awarded the Lachit Borphukab Medal. Its named after the great Ahom General who kept the Ahom empire from being subjugated by Mughals.

Geoguessr is a geographical browser game in which players guess locations from street view imagery. It puts you in location in google street view then you have to pinpoint your exact location on a map. Indian govt didn't allow much street coverage but lots of major college and most monuments etc are covered.
In Indian map section
I found - Ahom's Palace (Kareng Ghar) - Assam
It is sad that Majority of Indians knows next to nothing about NorthEast part of Indian history.
I only came to know about Ahom when i saw Ahom's palace in the game got curious and searched about them in google.

If you are history buff then its a great game and extremely knowledgeable.

 

[jeetu]

I am glad that you are wise enough to call a spade a spade. I mean the Mughals gave India so much in terms of culture, language and culinary. Actually it was the Mughal's that extended India's borders much before the Brits did. Please tell the RSS how you feel coz they need to hear it from sensible Indian's like you.

In Indian history 4 Empires unified most of Indian subcontinent
1. Maurya Empire
2. Gupta Empire
3. Mughal Empire
4. British Empire

Mughal Empire is part of rich Indian heritage. The evidence of it is everywhere. Even the language i speak is filled with urdu words.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You are pakistani origin brit whose ancestors were ruled by the Brits. Neither you conquered anything nor did you devise the policy of divide and rule. Stop trying to steal the military achievements of white native brits.

We are trying to reduce glorification of the racist bigoted invaders like Timurids. Dont worry.

How are white native Brits today any more responsible for ruling India than me? When Priti delivers her boot to the pants of illegal Indian immigrants, do you think the rest of Britian will say she can't do it because her ancestors were ruled by white Britons? I know Indians like you will only bow the knee to those of white hue, but I am here to tell you the Days of the Raj are over bar the odd restaurant which still bears the name. You can get up now, it's not illegal to criticise fair skinned people. Dear me. The inferiority complex on these posters.

 

[jeetu]

You are pakistani origin brit whose ancestors were ruled by the Brits. Neither you conquered anything nor did you devise the policy of divide and rule. Stop trying to steal the military achievements of white native brits.

We are trying to reduce glorification of the racist bigoted invaders like Timurids. Dont worry.

Its the issue with most Desi-Brits , they can't still decide whether they are Desi or Brit. Despite calling themselves brit over and over , when their ancestor's team plays match against England , guess which team they cheer for.

 

[PakLFC]

In Indian history 4 Empires unified most of Indian subcontinent
1. Maurya Empire
2. Gupta Empire
3. Mughal Empire
4. British Empire

Mughal Empire is part of rich Indian heritage. The evidence of it is everywhere. Even the language i speak is filled with urdu words.

Mughals included people of Afghan, Turkish and Uzbek backgrounds too. Urdu itself contains many Arabic and Turkish words too as well as some Hindi. Yes the Mughal's greatly enhanced Indian and Pakistani culture. The problem is because the Mughal's were Muslim's practicing or not the RSS type zealots can't get over it! Such is the hatred that they are changing names of cities too that sound Muslim

RSS have no problem with other empires you mentioned because they were Hindu ones.

 

[jeetu]

Mughals included people of Afghan, Turkish and Uzbek backgrounds too. Urdu itself contains many Arabic and Turkish words too as well as some Hindi. Yes the Mughal's greatly enhanced Indian and Pakistani culture. The problem is because the Mughal's were Muslim's practicing or not the RSS type zealots can't get over it! Such is the hatred that they are changing names of cities too that sound Muslim

RSS have no problem with other empires you mentioned because they were Hindu ones.

Here is my view regarding RSS , i have distant cousins who use to be members of RSS. They all quit about 15 years back to concentrate more on family. In my childhood RSS was seen as mostly docile organization , all everyone saw that they do morning exercises in the park in their baggy shorts. RSS got more power hungry as BJP started controlling the country. The good thing about India is that democracy is strong , the day BJP is replaced by another party , RSS will go back in shelf. The replaced party can re-change the name of cities if they want to.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

They can't rewrite the internet though.

 

[Local.Dada]

Everything that congress did, gandhi did or nehru did is heavily critisized by us and doesnt even try to focus on thei viewpoint...

.

I wonder if there will there be any change to that in the future.

I find it ironic that as you say Gandhi and Nehru are heavily criticized in Pakistan but the moment some incident happens in India under BJP or when article 370 got revoked, I have heard a lot of significant Pakistan leadership say, India/Modi have let down the great tenets of Gandhi/Nehru etc and complain that India is not following its secular culture.

I kind of find it hypocritical.

Obviously this isn’t a thread with a lot of articulate and intellectual points and is just opened probably on a lazy rainy English afternoon to get some raise out of people and there may not be many learnings expected.

However I always found that interesting.

 

[pillionrider]

Mistakes made by Nehru:

- Americans were ready to help the Indians be the next upcoming world leader, Kennedy offered nuclear technology to India before the Chinese had it, however Congress government said no thank you.

- Americans were ready to get India a seat in the UNSC, however Nehru and Congress said no thank you and even said that China's need to be a UNSC is a more important that ours.

- The entire Kashmir region legally became part of India, however Nehru chose to only take 60 percent of the land and leave the rest to Pakistan.

The Side effects from the above:

When India/China went to war after India China Bhai Bhai and got beaten hands down, Nehru went running to Kennedy to ask his assistance.

China is now Vetoing India on a lot of crucial issues thanks to the UNSC seat which they got which the Nehru government said they did not want.

Kashmir issue will be a raging issue between India and Pakistan till the end of time.


Now I do agree that going all in on with the Americans would have had its consequences however, the benefit would have been that, had there been cooperation with the Americans, present day India would have in a much better position today.

To say Nehru is the best is quite disturbing as India is still stuck in quick sand due to a lot of things Nehru and his Congress party has done.

Too much fake news in this. Kashmir has got so muddled and I haven't paid much attention to it, so until I research this further I won't talk on it.

But this UNSC thing is just so wrong and repeating it multiple times won't make it the truth. Taiwan held the seat which China took over. Even if any feelers were made to test Nehru out, he might have been cold to it based on the concept of a principle - something the current government severely lacks.

This is what he said in Parliament:

The Prime Minister said: “There has been no offer, formal or informal, of this kind. Some vague references have appeared in the press about it which have no foundation in fact. The composition of the Security Council is prescribed by the UN Charter, according to which certain specified nations have permanent seats. No change or addition can be made to this without an amendment of the Charter. There is, therefore, no question of a seat being offered and India declining it. Our declared policy is to support the admission of all nations qualified for UN membership.”

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...ed-and-india-declining-it/article61573078.ece

Regarding China using veto:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vetoed_United_Nations_Security_Council_resolutions

 

[Champ_Pal]

Mughals included people of Afghan, Turkish and Uzbek backgrounds too. Urdu itself contains many Arabic and Turkish words too as well as some Hindi. Yes the Mughal's greatly enhanced Indian and Pakistani culture. The problem is because the Mughal's were Muslim's practicing or not the RSS type zealots can't get over it! Such is the hatred that they are changing names of cities too that sound Muslim

RSS have no problem with other empires you mentioned because they were Hindu ones.

How did Mughals help India?

 

[PakLFC]

Here is my view regarding RSS , i have distant cousins who use to be members of RSS. They all quit about 15 years back to concentrate more on family. In my childhood RSS was seen as mostly docile organization , all everyone saw that they do morning exercises in the park in their baggy shorts. RSS got more power hungry as BJP started controlling the country. The good thing about India is that democracy is strong , the day BJP is replaced by another party , RSS will go back in shelf. The replaced party can re-change the name of cities if they want to.

I disagree. The hatred of non Hindu's particularly Muslim's has gone too far now. RSS will make sure India is split in to many parts. They ain't going anywhere at all.

 

[PakLFC]

How did Mughals help India?

By enhancing and broadening Indian culture and expanding it's borders.

 

[Champ_Pal]

By enhancing and broadening Indian culture and expanding it's borders.

The only thing Mughals enriched is the cuisine. That too, the Mughlai cuisine was not for ordinary Ramu and Abdul on the streets. The cuisine was for Royals and Elite close to the Royals. The cuisine spread out of the Royal Kitchen once Mughal Empire fell. Mughals did not invent the cuisine to enrich the taste buds of Indians.

There is no other major achievement in the 500 years of Mughal rule. Science, Mathematics, Engineering, Medicine, Infrastructure were completely ignored. Whatever they built was to remember their loved ones.

 

[topspin]

You already said you are a Brit not a Pakistani, so it is disingenuous to say "we haven't got a leg to stand on". As a fellow Brit I don't disagree, I have already made a similar point, but let's not deflect otherwise this timely article published by UK's most respected newspaper will get sidetracked. We can see this is already happening and it's not helpful to discuss what is happening in current India.

I'm a British Pakistani so I can relate to the place of my birth/residence and the place of my roots.

Anyway I won't spoil the India bashing. Please continue.

 

[Zaz]

Mughals furthered the borders, arts, trade, cuisine, womens rights, language, literature and construction

To say they didnt contribute anything meaningful to their realm is pure fallacy

 

[PakLFC]

The only thing Mughals enriched is the cuisine. That too, the Mughlai cuisine was not for ordinary Ramu and Abdul on the streets. The cuisine was for Royals and Elite close to the Royals. The cuisine spread out of the Royal Kitchen once Mughal Empire fell. Mughals did not invent the cuisine to enrich the taste buds of Indians.

There is no other major achievement in the 500 years of Mughal rule. Science, Mathematics, Engineering, Medicine, Infrastructure were completely ignored. Whatever they built was to remember their loved ones.

Costumes and the Urdu language. Salwar kameez, Masjids, sherwani and lehnga among other costumes. Don't forget things like the Taj Mahal and many other monuments or how about qawwali and ghazal culture. In fact Muslim's have contributed much more the the Hindu's.

 

[dildilpak]

I really dont understand the necessity of posting or even writing these articles. If Pakistan had no problem being an Islamic Republic & infact underplay their Hindu past, why criticize India if they are choosing to now fully embrace their Hindu rulers while choosing to ignore the Moghul invaders? After all the key difference here is the Moghuls were invaders & in some ways oppressers of their land & it should be the local’s choice whether to accept them, glorify them or not reject them. I mean thinking about it - our history is all about how the horrible British policies led to the Colonial wars- we dont glorify the Brits!

 

[Local.Dada]

Mughals furthered the womens rights

This one definitely stands out

How did they do that? By having 10+ wives each and taking a 1000 other concubines?

 

[PakLFC]

Mausoleum /courtyard culture and fountains were also introduced by Muslims/Moghuls. By the comparison the Hindu's have contributed almost nothing to the world or even India.

 

[the Great Khan]

I really dont understand the necessity of posting or even writing these articles. If Pakistan had no problem being an Islamic Republic & infact underplay their Hindu past, why criticize India if they are choosing to now fully embrace their Hindu rulers while choosing to ignore the Moghul invaders? After all the key difference here is the Moghuls were invaders & in some ways oppressers of their land & it should be the local’s choice whether to accept them, glorify them or not reject them. I mean thinking about it - our history is all about how the horrible British policies led to the Colonial wars- we dont glorify the Brits!

mughals? no Babar invaded..just like others from the greeks before and eve before them the central asians..every child born after Babar was an Indian. Thats the difference between the brits and the mughals..the mughals changed the land they came to by uplifting its culture and creating something so new and powerful that unwashed barbarians from the west would hear stories of its glories..they melded cultures to create a new culture that we still see today in many ways..

what we have now in India is a regressive, narrow minded culture that has nothing to offer the wider world..if you cut off a leg dont cry and when you realise you cant walk properly..

 

[Stewie]

That applies to Pakistan also. However it depends if most of the locals in Pakistan with names like Bajwa, Cheema, Rana, Rao etc see themselves as natives or as outsiders.

Pakistan is not that old and besides the people of Pakistan actually identify with those invaders. It is a very interesting dynamic, not many people feel they were oppressors just due to their religion.

 

[cricketjoshila]

mughals? no Babar invaded..just like others from the greeks before and eve before them the central asians..every child born after Babar was an Indian. Thats the difference between the brits and the mughals..the mughals changed the land they came to by uplifting its culture and creating something so new and powerful that unwashed barbarians from the west would hear stories of its glories..they melded cultures to create a new culture that we still see today in many ways..

what we have now in India is a regressive, narrow minded culture that has nothing to offer the wider world..if you cut off a leg dont cry and when you realise you cant walk properly..

No they were not Indian. They were invaders. Its amusing how pakistanis want to decide who is Indian who is not.

Timurids or Mughals tried to violently impose their religion on the natives. Tried to destroy the culture and heritage. They didn't accept the native culture language or religion. Just because they lived here longer than the Brits, doesn't make them Indian.

India was a rich glorious civilization long before Mughals and the west were trading with India.

Well, if i were you, i would worry about what pakistan is contributing to the world. Dont worry about India, we are not going to allow glorification of bigoted tyrannical genocidal invaders.

 

[JaDed]

No they were not Indian. They were invaders. Its amusing how pakistanis want to decide who is Indian who is not.

Timurids or Mughals tried to violently impose their religion on the natives. Tried to destroy the culture and heritage. They didn't accept the native culture language or religion. Just because they lived here longer than the Brits, doesn't make them Indian.

India was a rich glorious civilization long before Mughals and the west were trading with India.

Well, if i were you, i would worry about what pakistan is contributing to the world. Dont worry about India, we are not going to allow glorification of bigoted tyrannical genocidal invaders.

Yes Ashoka should be glorified after literally massacring insane amount of Indians.

Hindutvadis are becoming like Pakistanis were only who they want to glorify will be glorified based on their agenda.

 

[Zaz]

Dont worry about India, we are not going to allow glorification of bigoted tyrannical genocidal invaders.

The irony You have a bigoted tyrannical ruler and party in power lol

Mughals were true sons of the soil Not these rabid hindutva fascists who are hell bent on spreading communal hatred and marginalising 200m of their citizens

You hate mongers can take them out of your textbooks but you cant change or dilute history

The mughals reign will always be known as the golden age Kar lo jo karna hai