India vs Pakistan - Pre and Post Dhoni Era

[Madplayer]

ok i am not asking this because Pakistan beat India today. I discussed this in one of threads yesterday as well.

we all know that Pakistan used to beat and dominate india regularly before dhoni was made the captain. During dhoni's captaincy , india's fortunes changed and they began to beat Pakistan more regularly than before.

In the last Odi series Pakistan did beat dhoni's team in their own den but generally speaking Indian team has had a slight upper hand over Pakistan under him. how much ?its for the stats gurus to find out. Some say its because Pakistan's worst decade has coincided with India's best but whatever.

My question is ,with the removal of dhoni (whenever it happens) will Pakistan start dominating India like in the pre-dhoni era?
Is today's match just an indication of things to come?

 

[mithun_minhas]

Indian ODI team has been in a decline since 2011 WC.

Many big names are gone.

India needs to find a couple of solid middle order players.

DK, Rayadu is not going to cut it.

Also India should only play 4 bowlers and Rohit, Raina should share 5th bowler load.

 

[Silly Point]

I think it's just a case of Dhoni having a better team than recent Pakistan. Before him, Inzi had a better team than what Ganguly had.

 

[Madplayer]

I think it's just a case of Dhoni having a better team than recent Pakistan. Before him, Inzi had a better team than what Ganguly had.

ganguly had laxman, tendu, dravid, yuvraj, sehwag , zaheer and harbhajan at peak.

 

[Itachi]

Dhoni has an aura around him. you can tell him defensive but he is dammn good in the waiting game.... kohli lacks experience in this. and i dare say, dhoni utilises the bowlers to the fullest.

to answer your question, yes, without dhoni, pak will always have an upper hand on odis over india.

 

[Silly Point]

ganguly had laxman, tendu, dravid, yuvraj, sehwag , zaheer and harbhajan at peak.

Like I said, Inzi had a better ODI team with Akhtar, Rana, Malik, Yousuf, Afridi, Butt, Razzaq at their peaks.

 

[asifp]

people underestimate the influence of Dhoni.

with him at the helm the helm Indian team always believes they will win the big game.

one more thing, he would never miss that stump!

 

[On_the_up]

Dhoni also brings with him. .

a finisher with a 50+ average.

 

[cricketjoshila]

This team is in transition.

Sehwag/Gambhir/Yuvi/Zak/Bhajji are gone.Thats half the team.Dhoni and Kohli are class ODI players and Dhawan is good.Jadeja and Shami and Rahane have potential and need time.

But unlike Ganguly,Dhoni is not willing to give new players chances and just favours his own buddies.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Indian ODI team has been in a decline since 2011 WC.

Many big names are gone.

India needs to find a couple of solid middle order players.

DK, Rayadu is not going to cut it.

Also India should only play 4 bowlers and Nohit, Raina should share 5th bowler load.

Are you sure?

Today's innings (the way he played) confirmed to me that h belongs to the big stage.

Cmon, just because India lost doens't mean we have to throw everyoneout.

Rahane, DK though are struggling.

Not just this match but generally too.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Dhoni was/is/will be a great LOI captain.

So yes, it matters.

 

[Madplayer]

Like I said, Inzi had a better ODI team with Akhtar, Rana, Malik, Yousuf, Afridi, Butt, Razzaq at their peaks.

none of those names is better than the ones from the then indian team i mentioned. tendulkar alone is a better one day player than all of them combined excluding akhtar who was a beast and .

Sehwag,ganguly,tendu,laxman,dravid, yuvraj is an ATG batting line up

 

[menace2society]

Dhoni and Raina are extreme world class at the lower order. These 2 can get you guaranteed 100 run partnership whatever the situation.

With these 2 out of the team India batting is weakened to SL/Pak level.

Pak and SL have better bowlers so both have won.

Dohni will be back in time for WC so this advantage won't remain for long.

 

[Silly Point]

none of those names is better than the ones from the then indian team i mentioned. tendulkar alone is a better one day player than all of them combined excluding akhtar who was a beast and .

Sehwag,ganguly,tendu,laxman,dravid, yuvraj is an ATG batting line up

Laxman averaged 30 in ODIs, Sehwag 35. Yuvraj 36. You seem to be confusing formats of cricket. Or you just don't know what an ATG mean.

Under Woolmer and Inzi we were ranked number 2 in ODIs in the world. Butt, Malik, Inzi etc. were beasts against India, hence the better record against Ganguly's team. Dhoni, Kohli, Dhawan, Rohit, Raina etc. are actually better ODI replacements for the big "test" names like Dravid and Laxman.

 

[Adil_94]

If India had Dhoni and Raina today they would've beat us

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[tahir_dj]

if india want to beat Pak

All they have to do is play these players against us
shewag
Zaheer khan
Harbhajan
yuvraj


these players seems to have that extra factor where Pakistan always scummed to pressure

 

[pakistani pride]

perhaps check the last series in india tahir.
btw those players r past their prime

Saeed anwar
ijaz ahmed
wasim akram

etc etc used to give epic phaintys in their time to the parosees

 

[London_Lahori]

A number of the players who played on both sides today will be around for the foreseeable future. If you look at Pakistan an players who will be their for say the next 4 years it will be (form and other variables such as injuries not withstanding):

Shehzad
Sharjeel
Hafeez
Akmal
Maqsood
Talha
Bhatti
Anwar Ali
Junaid

India it will be:

Dhawan
Sharma
Kohli
Rahane
DK
Rayudu
Pujara
Shami
Bhuvi
Jadeja
Ashwin

These players will be doing battle for the next few years, obviously there will be chopping and changing etc. though at least 5/6 of those players will be ok either side. IMO Pakistan look to be the stronger team of the two heading to the future.

I'm not too familiar with the Indian domestic scene but I know Pakistan has some good talent to come into the team and take over from the outgoing players (Misbah, Afridi and Ajmal mainly). Raza Hasan, Hammad Azam, Zafar Gohar, Fawad Alam and Babar Azam will all fill the spaces.

I feel Pakistan cricket is in safe hands for at least the next 4-5 years.

 

[London_Lahori]

If India had Dhoni and Raina today they would've beat us

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

They could have had both of them, had we had Irfan it wouldn't have mattered.

So there's no point in playing that game, bud.

 

[Adil_94]

They could have had both of them, had we had Irfan it wouldn't have mattered.

So there's no point in playing that game, bud.

On these phattas with them we would be chasing 300 if them 2 were playing

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[Buffet]

I think it's just a case of Dhoni having a better team than recent Pakistan.

+1

People read too much into pre or post Dhoni etc but it's the case of Dhoni having a better team. Yaah, there were some great players earlier but Dhoni himself is a huge factor. Having one of the best finishers with 50+ avg at 6 is a huge advantage. Many posters don't get it but that one factor will win you 20-25% more games.

Imagine if Pakistan had some one like Dhoni coming out to bat at 6 or AB had Dhoni coming behind him. It changes the whole equation.

 

[hadi123]

When dhoni retires india will suck. They even lost to sl without his experience and they always beat them

 

[London_Lahori]

On these phattas with them we would be chasing 300 if them 2 were playing

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

No we wouldn't. How would they have changed the fact they were 110-4 in 24 overs? They would not have got to 300 from there. With irfan in the team they wouldn't have even got off to the quick start they did.

 

[Adil_94]

No we wouldn't. How would they have changed the fact they were 110-4 in 24 overs? They would not have got to 300 from there. With irfan in the team they wouldn't have even got off to the quick start they did.

Dhoni and Raina on SC Phattas are like Bradmans at the death they would have got 50 more at least Irfan would have been good with the new ball but with the old ball he's mediocre

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[tahir_dj]

perhaps check the last series in india tahir.
btw those players r past their prime

Saeed anwar
ijaz ahmed
wasim akram

etc etc used to give epic phaintys in their time to the parosees

Just giving them a sukhi (dry) advice lol

 

[Justcrazy]

absence was bound to be felt. He and Raina would be devastating in subcontinent.

 

[eradicator]

Yeah right , with Dhoni/Raina in the team Pakistan would be chasing over 300. From 100 Odd for 4 to 300 in 50 overs against Pakistani bowling , for sure.

How many times did India score over 300 in the last Odi series against Pakistan ? Or for that matter only 250 ?

 

[SL_Fan]

When dhoni retires india will suck. They even lost to sl without his experience and they always beat them

Dhoni is not only one of the top 3 ODI batsmen of all time (at least imo), but he's also one of the luckiest. The guy wins pretty much every toss that matters (especially against us) and seems to somehow find a way out of even the most difficult of situations. Even in that tri-series in WI some time back when Dhoni sat out we flogged em but then he came back for the final and blasted 15 or so runs in the final over to win the game lol.

 

[Buffet]

Dhoni is not only one of the top 3 ODI batsmen of all time (at least imo), but he's also one of the luckiest. The guy wins pretty much every toss that matters (especially against us) and seems to somehow find a way out of even the most difficult of situations. Even in that tri-series in WI some time back when Dhoni sat out we flogged em but then he came back for the final and blasted 15 or so runs in the final over to win the game lol.

Who do you pick as top 3 and top 5 ?

Agreed about Dhoni. I don't necessarily agree with his method of always taking the games till the last over but it works for him. If I remember it correctly then in that game he refused to take two singles to retain the strike in the last over. I thought it was stupidity but he finished the game in the next 3 balls.

 

[SL_Fan]

Who do you pick as top 3 and top 5 ?

Agreed about Dhoni. I don't necessarily agree with his method of always taking the games till the last over but it works for him. If I remember it correctly then in that game he refused to take two singles to retain the strike in the last over. I thought it was stupidity but he finished the game in the next 3 balls.

Viv, Sachin and Dhoni would be my top 3 picks. If Dhoni can win the upcoming WC or get to the final with his heroics then he will end up above Sachin and even possibly above Viv in my book. Top 5 I would go with Bevan and although it might be too early I'm putting Kohli up there.

 

[AZ]

Yuvraj and Dhoni were the regular Pak tormenters in the past, without them there is nothing to really fear in this Indian team.

Kohli cannot do it all on his own.

 

[Madplayer]

Yeah right , with Dhoni/Raina in the team Pakistan would be chasing over 300. From 100 Odd for 4 to 300 in 50 overs against Pakistani bowling , for sure.

How many times did India score over 300 in the last Odi series against Pakistan ? Or for that matter only 250 ?

that was a bi lateral series. This was a potential knock out game and we all know what Pakistan's record is in knock outs against India.

 

[eradicator]

that was a bi lateral series. This was a potential knock out game and we all know what Pakistan's record is in knock outs against India.

Check the Mohali 2011 match for that matter, How many did Dhoni score ? What was the Indian target ?

The Point is simple. Against a team like Pakistan , if the openers + Number 3 batsman wont fire then it is impossible to get a 300+ score no matter how good the Middle Order/Lower order must be.

Dhoni was not going to score a 50 balls ton against Pakistan. He would have done exactly what Rayudu and Jadeja offered , still not good enough.

 

[Madplayer]

Check the Mohali 2011 match for that matter, How many did Dhoni score ? What was the Indian target ?

The Point is simple. Against a team like Pakistan , if the openers + Number 3 batsman wont fire then it is impossible to get a 300+ score no matter how good the Middle Order/Lower order must be.

Dhoni was not going to score a 50 balls ton against Pakistan. He would have done exactly what Rayudu and Jadeja offered , still not good enough.

its not just about the extra runs. Its also about a captain who understands the potential of his bowlers and how to utilize their potential to the fullest. Not to mention a superior wicket keeper.

 

[Madplayer]

Laxman averaged 30 in ODIs, Sehwag 35. Yuvraj 36. You seem to be confusing formats of cricket. Or you just don't know what an ATG mean.

Under Woolmer and Inzi we were ranked number 2 in ODIs in the world. Butt, Malik, Inzi etc. were beasts against India, hence the better record against Ganguly's team. Dhoni, Kohli, Dhawan, Rohit, Raina etc. are actually better ODI replacements for the big "test" names like Dravid and Laxman.

I know i am quoting a post from 2014 but averages dont always show the impact that yuvraj and sehwag had on the matches India played. Its idiotic to say that they arent great ODI players.

 

[Madplayer]

Bump

 

[King Kong]

I think Kohli will likely score a hundred every time he plays against Pakistan from now on. Under Dhoni, we were great while we will be ruthless under Kohli.

 

[Pollack]

Are you sure?

Today's innings (the way he played) confirmed to me that h belongs to the big stage.

Cmon, just because India lost doens't mean we have to throw everyoneout.

Rahane, DK though are struggling.

Not just this match but generally too.

You were rayudu fan? ) still?

 

[Pollack]

Post dhoni era would be absolutely ruthless and Indian team would dominate ODI substantially under kohli.We would not miss dhoni 'the captain' at all.
Currently we are in transition and dead woods(yuvraj,dhoni,raina) aren't willing to leave.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I think post Dhoni, India will become even more ruthless and win more matches against every opposition save perhaps OZ. And no, Dhoni was only part of the reason we dominated Pakistan.

 

[Speedster777]

India will be exposed. They rely on one man Kohli to save them.

 

[Madplayer]

Amazing what star power can do. Kohli once used the word ruthless and now i can see many Indian fans parroting the same word )

 

[Zak_Fan]

Amazing what star power can do. Kohli once used the word ruthless and now i can see many Indian fans parroting the same word )

Nothing to do we Kohli, the boys are expressing themselves.

 

[Sidilicious]

You were rayudu fan? ) still?

My sentiments exactly. Never seen a poster hate Rayudu as much as Sif does. Cant believe he thought that the biryani man belonged to the big league

 

[aniket1911]

My only fear (if any) that we might fail to win big moments under kohli, he's animated and wants to win at any cost but that accompanies with his animated character and pallor on his face if opposition have upper hand. I hope dhoni sticks around till virat grows into an ODI captain. In IPL too, under his captaincy, Murphy's law strikes with RCB every freaking time.

 

[Varun]

Amazing what star power can do. Kohli once used the word ruthless and now i can see many Indian fans parroting the same word )

Everybody is getting carried away. Pakistan's time to strike will come in the Champions Trophy in the middle of the year. A win against an overconfident Indian side can get the tide turning in knockout games between the two before you can spell S-T-R-E-A-K.

 

[Pollack]

Amazing what star power can do. Kohli once used the word ruthless and now i can see many Indian fans parroting the same word )

I copied King Kong above.
stardom

 

[Madplayer]

I copied King Kong above.
stardom

All of ya'l copied kohli though
Nothing wrong it though. Most people tend to repeat things popular guys/ leaders have said.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

You were rayudu fan? ) still?

My sentiments exactly. Never seen a poster hate Rayudu as much as Sif does. Cant believe he thought that the biryani man belonged to the big league

Haha...I myself got a HUGE shock seeing my post.

I wasn't a Rayudu fan but there was a point in time when I felt he could make it as a batsman. I was curious to see which match I was referring to, so I went to cricinfo and dug it out based on the date of my comment:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/asia-cup-2014/engine/current/match/710301.html

When I saw this, I remembered his knock. India was in trouble, he started off scratchily but he stayed in the crease and helped us get to a competitive total by scoring 58 at 93 SR.

This was an impressive knock by him effectiveness wise. I thought he would build upon it.

But much later on, someone pointed out to me Rayudu's domestic SR and it seemed like low SR was a trend with him no matter where and against whom he played. Now domestic stats aren't the be all and end all and some players can do better internationally but in general, they do point out what's more likely to happen.

That along with Rayudu's poor performance SR wise made me realize he just doesn't belong to modern LOI.

He is an international class batsman in the sense he can bat and score well in ODIs which is evident by his average of 50 (against SL in India, he averaged 62 at a SR of 91 and against Eng in Eng, he averaged 117 at a SR of 84 in 3 games) and his ability to ride out tough periods but he just doesn't belong to modern LOI where he can CONSISTENTLY score fast. His scratchy technique adds to the annoyance.

Never was a Rayudu fan but he surely got me confused at one point of time.

Regardless, this comment was a shocker to me.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

^His List A average is 39. SR not mentioned. So maybe the 50 ODI average was also an aberration. He had 2 good years in 2014 and 2015 average and SR wise.

 

[Madplayer]

Lets see what happens tomorrow in the first India vs Pak ODI in post dhoni era.

 

[SandyB]

Lets see what happens tomorrow in the first India vs Pak ODI in post dhoni era.

Dhoni is still here man. He'll still have valuable inputs , especially if match gets tight. You can't judge the post-Dhoni era in ODIs yet. The test results are pretty obvious.

But do expect a more pace focused strategy though. We are packing decent firepower this time.

 

[Madplayer]

Post-Dhoni (captain) era has already been favourable to Pakistan.

Do you think Pakistan will revive its traditional domination of India after Dhoni is completely removed from the Indian side?

Can it be said that Dhoni's era as captain was an abberation in Pak vs India head to head record (during the period of Dhoni's captaincy) ?

 

[Dingolfy]

You won just one match and was similarly beaten in the previous match in the same damn tournament! Like I have said earlier in many threads, you aint beating us regualrly unless you have good batsmen who can chase anything over 250 without panicking.No matter whoever is the captain.

 

[Madplayer]

You won just one match and was similarly beaten in the previous match in the same damn tournament! Like I have said earlier in many threads, you aint beating us regualrly unless you have good batsmen who can chase anything over 250 without panicking.No matter whoever is the captain.

India lost in Asia cup as well to Pakistan in Dhoni's absence. But i agree the matches have been too few.

 

[Madplayer]

Just came back to bump this.

Was Dhoni the difference?

 

[Osama Shafeeqe]

From memory (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it's 3 Wins for Pakistan and 5 Wins for India since Dhoni was last captain.

Pak wins being Champions trophy final 2017, T20WC 2021 and Asia Cup super 4s 2022. While India beating Pakistan in Champion Trophy group stage, 2 Asia Cup wins in 2018, ODIWC 2019 and Asia Cup group stage 2022.

Since Dhoni's retirement, its 2 - 1 to Pakistan. We will definitely get a much clearer answer at the end of next year as Pakistan and India may play each other 4 - 6 with T20WC 2022, Asia Cup 2023 and ODIWC2023 taking place.

 

[Madplayer]

From memory (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it's 3 Wins for Pakistan and 5 Wins for India since Dhoni was last captain.

Pak wins being Champions trophy final 2017, T20WC 2021 and Asia Cup super 4s 2022. While India beating Pakistan in Champion Trophy group stage, 2 Asia Cup wins in 2018, ODIWC 2019 and Asia Cup group stage 2022.

Since Dhoni's retirement, its 2 - 1 to Pakistan. We will definitely get a much clearer answer at the end of next year as Pakistan and India may play each other 4 - 6 with T20WC 2022, Asia Cup 2023 and ODIWC2023 taking place.

Even some of those games that Pakistan won during Dhoni's era were when Dhoni wasn't in the playing XI for India. The guy really had mastered how to win against Pak.

 

[Justcrazy]

Dhoni was once a generation player , he held all three major tornaments . He is greatest white ball captain ever.

Dhoni was expert in using his part time spinners to choke oppositions.

India will miss Dhoni as batsman , WK and captain. He is in the same league as Imran Khan , Wasim Akram , Richards , Pointing , Tendulkar kind of players

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

What a captain Dhoni was. No one can replace him in the current Indian team.

 

[Varun]

Everybody is getting carried away. Pakistan's time to strike will come in the Champions Trophy in the middle of the year. A win against an overconfident Indian side can get the tide turning in knockout games between the two before you can spell S-T-R-E-A-K.

Called it over 5 years ago!