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Indian players proving yet again that India is all Virat Kohli or nothing?

To be really frank all this game proved is that India are still not ready to get rid of MS Dhoni. Virat with all due respect would not have made a huge difference with the outcome of the game. He is a great player and I don't agree that he is a FTB based on just one England series. He has scored runs all round the world and did very well in ODI's in the 2010/11 series as well.
 
giri26 said:
To be really frank all this game proved is that India are still not ready to get rid of MS Dhoni. Virat with all due respect would not have made a huge difference with the outcome of the game. He is a great player and I don't agree that he is a FTB based on just one England series. He has scored runs all round the world and did very well in ODI's in the 2010/11 series as well.
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Yeah i agree with point that dhoni still has something to offer to the team. I feel that in 2019 wc there will be atleast two instances when our top order will get out cheaply and at that time someone like dhoni who can soak pressure and play according to situation will be required.
 
Sam99 said:
He failed in recent aus test and odi tour still india won series. Kohli would have been out on duck as well they way lakmal bowled on that pitch. You guys just overrate a flat track bully. My guess is someone like rahane can do well on this pitches but he is out of form.
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If a flat track bully is making runs all over the world except england than i will take him instead of some ignorant chaps who fail to chase 130 in uae:bhajji
In lois no one in current pak team is even comparable to rohit and dhawan let alone kohli.This ftb will become the greatest ever odi batsmen and even your best legendary saeed anwar wont even be capable to tie his shoelaces:ashwin
 
Sam99 said:
He failed in recent aus test and odi tour still india won series. Kohli would have been out on duck as well they way lakmal bowled on that pitch. You guys just overrate a flat track bully. My guess is someone like rahane can do well on this pitches but he is out of form.
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A batsman with 32 odi centuries is overrated.pak standards of batting are really high:yk3
 
ExpressPacer said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again; the Indian team is heavily and OVERLY reliant on VK succeeding to win. We've seen it numerous times in the past that on most occasions, his runs are vital for India to win. And it isn't constricted to that, his mere presence is what the Indian team feeds off as I've mentioned in a previous post:
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Thanks!
 
Whilst Rohit Sharma was clearly the star of the show today it is no surprise that Kohli hit form too and supported Sharma throughout his innings.
 
Princejain191 said:
Agree to an extent because this comes with terms and conditions. If the pitches have something for bowlers, then yes -there is over reliance on Virat, as we saw in last year's Asia cup and then WC16. He was literally our entire batting line-up and the gulf between him and other Indian batsmen was ridiculous. Or in Mumbai vs NZ and Kolkata vs Australia this year.

But on flat pitches, you can still expect our batting to do well. They will prob not chase as well without Virat but still have good batting averages and India would score 300+, though may be a little more inconsistently.
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This still stands true^
 
Let's see how long thks new found resurgence lasts. Rohit Sharma has 3 double hundreds and quite a few big hundreds in ODI's YET he averages only 45, same as Misbah. Shows you a lot about how consistent he is.
 
ExpressPacer said:
Let's see how long thks new found resurgence lasts. Rohit Sharma has 3 double hundreds and quite a few big hundreds in ODI's YET he averages only 45, same as Misbah. Shows you a lot about how consistent he is.
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It's surprising you say an average of 45 is ONLY He is ranked 8th on average in the list of all time batsmen who have scored 5000 or more runs.

It's not a new found resurgence. He did struggle till 2012 (Averaging only 30.0 till then). The Indian team management placed their faith on his talent and he did take a long time to deliver. But since Jan 2013 he has hit a purple patch. His yearly batting averages since then have been as follows.

2013: 52.0
2014: 52.54
2015: 50.93
2016: 62.66
2017: 75.64

He has been averaging 58.4 (4434 runs) since 01-Jan-2013 and he has been consistent since then.

He is just 30, a long way to go in his career so the ATG can wait, but he certainly has been doing very well since the past 5 years.
 
Average of 58 with strike rate of 100 in last 4 years!!!. He has left the likes of amla, guptill and warner to dust.
And people are comparing him with misbah.
 
Oligochaetes said:
It's surprising you say an average of 45 is ONLY He is ranked 8th on average in the list of all time batsmen who have scored 5000 or more runs.

It's not a new found resurgence. He did struggle till 2012 (Averaging only 30.0 till then). The Indian team management placed their faith on his talent and he did take a long time to deliver. But since Jan 2013 he has hit a purple patch. His yearly batting averages since then have been as follows.

2013: 52.0
2014: 52.54
2015: 50.93
2016: 62.66
2017: 75.64

He has been averaging 58.4 (4434 runs) since 01-Jan-2013 and he has been consistent since then.

He is just 30, a long way to go in his career so the ATG can wait, but he certainly has been doing very well since the past 5 years.
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My point was that despite such mammoth scores, his average does not reflect that. 3 double hundreds and a couple of big tons is not a small deal. And YET he average ONLY 45. I say only not because 45 is a small figure, but because for someone with 3 double tons in ODI's, it is rather low.
 
ExpressPacer said:
My point was that despite such mammoth scores, his average does not reflect that. 3 double hundreds and a couple of big tons is not a small deal. And YET he average ONLY 45. I say only not because 45 is a small figure, but because for someone with 3 double tons in ODI's, it is rather low.
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He averages 56 since he started opening the batting in ODIs.
 
ExpressPacer said:
My point was that despite such mammoth scores, his average does not reflect that. 3 double hundreds and a couple of big tons is not a small deal. And YET he average ONLY 45. I say only not because 45 is a small figure, but because for someone with 3 double tons in ODI's, it is rather low.
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He averaged 28 - 29 before he started to open and he played around 70 - 80 games that time so to recover from that worse avg to 45.5 now is good job. I am sure he will be averaging around 50 till 2019 - 20.
 
Abdullah719 said:
He hasn't been inconsistent since he started opening the innings, which is the last four years or so.

He was inconsistent before that, sure. Mediocre, even.
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Of course. But I'm not taking a specific portion of his career into consideration. By that logic, SangaKkara averages bradmanesque numbers in his last couple of years or so, but when looking at his overall career and judging his standing amongst top international cricketers, you look at his entire career. And similarly, I'm not going to judge Rohit over just a selected number of matches.
 
And in other thread posters are calling Rohit Sharma as ATG and as the second best bat of his era. No wonder keyboards warrior will remain like that.
 
Thanks again.

People making up stories to elevate Kohli at a Level of batsmanship he isn’t.

It’s going to continue for a long time as is/was the case With Tendulkar.
 
msb314 said:
Whilst Rohit Sharma was clearly the star of the show today it is no surprise that Kohli hit form too and supported Sharma throughout his innings.
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Hahaha excellent post.. He sure did support Sharma throughout their innings..
 
No Kohli, Rohit failed! India wins with the support of Kuldeep, Chahal, Dhoni, Shreyas(new kid on the block) and Dhawan! No! This team doesn't rely on Kohli and No! This team is not just Kohli!
 
big_gamer007 said:
Hahaha excellent post.. He sure did support Sharma throughout their innings..
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Yeah.

Rohit Sharma's 209 was an exception. Kohli got runout for 0 that game but Dhoni played a fantastic supporting knock then.
 
India relies too much on top order. Basically Top 3 batsmen. The rest are just passengers who contribute occasionally.

So saying India cannot win without Kohli is wrong. However if India were chasing 300 against the likes of Aus or SA or Eng or Pak, India needs Kohli.
 
msb314 said:
What are you confused about?
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Your original post said Rohit was star of the show however Kohli came in form and supported Sharma..

Which I thought you meant taking a dig at Kohli and Anushka Sharma marriage, since Kohli is not playing in current ODI series against SRi Lanka..

Now you are actually posting like you meant Kohli supported Rohit Sharma in his cricket innings of 208* in the current series where Kohli is not even playing..
 
big_gamer007 said:
Your original post said Rohit was star of the show however Kohli came in form and supported Sharma..

Which I thought you meant taking a dig at Kohli and Anushka Sharma marriage, since Kohli is not playing in current ODI series against SRi Lanka..

Now you are actually posting like you meant Kohli supported Rohit Sharma in his cricket innings of 208* in the current series where Kohli is not even playing..
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haha no.

I was being serious but my bad - I did not realize Kohli had missed this series and confused Shreyas Iyer with Kohli :)

But the point still remains.

Many of Sharma's best ODI knocks had Kohli supporting him. Whether it was his 141* at Jaipur or his 171* at Melbourne or his 264 vs SL when Kohli also made 66. Even his 65 odd vs Pakistan in the 2012 Asia Cup was a significant knock for him due to his poor form at the time and him being on the verge of being dropped - however Kohli stole the show and blazed away with his 183.
 
Not really.If Replacement of kohli performs half as good as kohli then i guess india can win. Rohit and Dhawan both are better than Kohli in icc trophies though.
 
Sam99 said:
Not really.If Replacement of kohli performs half as good as kohli then i guess india can win. Rohit and Dhawan both are better than Kohli in icc trophies though.
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Dhawan is the best player in ICC tournaments in ODIs in modern cricket (Kohli is the best in the T20I WCs).

Rohit is probably in the top 5 and Kohli in the top 10 in ODI ICC tournaments.
 
Sin Nombre said:
Dhawan is the best player in ICC tournaments in ODIs in modern cricket (Kohli is the best in the T20I WCs).

Rohit is probably in the top 5 and Kohli in the top 10 in ODI ICC tournaments.
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What has dhawan done in knockout matches. He only performs in group stages
 
Smudger said:
What has dhawan done in knockout matches. He only performs in group stages
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Check CT 2013 semis, finals. WC 2015 semis. CT 2017 semis.

He performed in all those matches and keep in mind that performance does not equate to being Man of the match.
 
C'mon.... What all specifics you guys need to rate a player. One has to play well in group stages in order to get into knockout. And if one performs in QF , SF and then fail in finals , again that is termed as choker. A batsman can be good or bad but to rate his runs to suit certain agendas is farcical. Runs are runs.
 
navin said:
[MENTION=141922]ExpressPacer[/MENTION] your thoughts
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The first match was a clear indicationof how weak India really are without VK. And it still clearly shows. Did people think I meant that they would get whitewashed? Sri Lanka is a team that's lost series to every country they played over the last year, including Zimbabwe at home. India is still an OK team WITHOUT VK, good enough to beat 9 ranked teams. But that's about it.
 
ExpressPacer said:
The first match was a clear indicationof how weak India really are without VK. And it still clearly shows. Did people think I meant that they would get whitewashed? Sri Lanka is a team that's lost series to every country they played over the last year, including Zimbabwe at home. India is still an OK team WITHOUT VK, good enough to beat 9 ranked teams. But that's about it.
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you really feel virat would have scored on that pitch? then you lack alot knowledge for sure. I highly doubt virat would have scored more than 10 in 1st odi. Look at 1st test match when ball seamed and swinged virat looked totally clueless against 9th ranked team.
 
Sam99 said:
you really feel virat would have scored on that pitch? then you lack alot knowledge for sure. I highly doubt virat would have scored more than 10 in 1st odi. Look at 1st test match when ball seamed and swinged virat looked totally clueless against 9th ranked team.
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Read my previous posts. I would have bumped this thread even if VK played and failed, my point is simple, whenever VK is not among the runs; India struggles.
 
ExpressPacer said:
Read my previous posts. I would have bumped this thread even if VK played and failed, my point is simple, whenever VK is not among the runs; India struggles.
Click to expand...

Another way to look at it can be :
Whenever the pitch is not flat, VK fails as do the other indian batsmen.

What do you think?
 
Mobashir said:
Another way to look at it can be :
Whenever the pitch is not flat, VK fails as do the other indian batsmen.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

Perhaps. I don't know, you can't really say. VK is a talented batsman and has it in him to succeed in tough conditions as well, but even when VK fails against an inept attack on a flat deck, more often than not, Indian dependence on Kohli becomes apparent, especially in batting.
 
Mobashir said:
Another way to look at it can be :
Whenever the pitch is not flat, VK fails as do the other indian batsmen.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

Nah, he has won us plenty of matches in the last two years on tough pitches. We played on seaming or spinning pitches throughout Asia Cup'16 and WT20'16 when he made around 450 runs @ 100+ average and the next best Indian was at around 200 runs. Also played well in Wankhade vs NZ'17, Kolkata vs. Aus'17 in pretty challenging conditions. We depend massively on Virat when the pitch is not flat
 
Princejain191 said:
Nah, he has won us plenty of matches in the last two years on tough pitches. We played on seaming or spinning pitches throughout Asia Cup'16 and WT20'16 when he made around 450 runs @ 100+ average and the next best Indian was at around 200 runs. Also played well in Wankhade vs NZ'17, Kolkata vs. Aus'17 in pretty challenging conditions. We depend massively on Virat when the pitch is not flat
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All VK fans do is always bring t20’s into the discussion.

So let’s talk about the real formats. You just have two examples?
 
Mobashir said:
All VK fans do is always bring t20’s into the discussion.

So let’s talk about the real formats. You just have two examples?
Click to expand...

Haha, you definitely are not a "VK fan". WT20 is pretty high profile tbh, and I genuinely think scoring consistently in T20s require more skill than ODIs, especially given that most pitches are flat in ODIs and 50 overs is a lot of time. Also I haven't seen a better LOI knock than his 82* vs Aus recently.

But yeah on the topic of ODIs, Virat averages over 80 in the last two years at SR of 100. 9 hundreds in 36 matches and 20 fifty+ scores. If you are looking for more examples, then just put some effort. Had a 140-odd against SA on a turner, a 70-odd in a decider vs NZ on a turner again if I remember right, a 70-odd again vs. SA in CT17 on a very slow surface. But yeah, all this really doesn't suit your narrative, so carry on my friend. Have a good day!
 
ExpressPacer said:
Read my previous posts. I would have bumped this thread even if VK played and failed, my point is simple, whenever VK is not among the runs; India struggles.
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False India won both series vs aus this year (test and odi) almost without virat's help maybe 1 fifty max. In home conditions i think india can win easily without virat against any team but in overseas i don't think india can win even with virat being in team (i can hardly remember his match winning century in overseas (aus,england,south africa or new zealand)
 
But Sharmaji is easily the most entertaining cricketer in the Indian team of this generation.
 
navin said:
one more slap on the op's face
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Op will come back hard at you and state that India have won against 9th ranked team on the flattest and smallest cricket ground on the earth.

Let us see if Indian batting line up can score without Kohli on the greenest and biggest grounds (like UAE) against teams Like SAF, Aus etc.
 
Last edited:
TheRock said:
Op will come back hard at you and state that India have won against 9th ranked team on the flattest and smallest cricket ground on the earth.

Let us see if Indian batting line up can score without Kohli on the greenest and biggest grounds (like UAE) against teams Like SAF, Aus etc.
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What has india won with kohli in overseas? Leave green he cant win even on flat decks mostly.
 
Looking at How Rohit and Indian batsman are playing a bit bounce and swing in india. Kholi has to do a Smith for india competing in Sa
 
Indian batting proving YET again that their batting "powerhouse" solely and primarily consists of ONE single good player who carries the entire batting lineup. It is their luck that this lone warrior happens to be one of the greatest player in the history of the game, there, keeping the entire teams performance at a respectable level.

Without Kohli, this Indian batting lineup would be at minnow level most likely.
 
Rahul, Vijay, Dhawan, Pujara and even Rahane, all seem to be struggling against the moving ball. Kohli will have to pull out the performance of his career if India are to win this series. And the scary thing is that he just might.
 
But we were told Pujara and Rahane are better test players.

Waiting for these posters to come out of hiding but no such luck so far.
 
We need to get rid of the deadwood after this series in our test squad after this series.If they fail -

Dhawan - out(no need to even wait this series)
Pujara-Out
Rahane(out)
Sharma(out - already done)
Karthik (out)
Vijay(out -too old,no chance of improvement)

Rahul should open with a new pick from domestics.
Same for number 3,5,6.
Pant for karthik.
Need to shake things up now.

It can't be worse than it is now.They are batting like tailenders.
 
austerlitz said:
We need to get rid of the deadwood after this series in our test squad after this series.If they fail -

Dhawan - out(no need to even wait this series)
Pujara-Out
Rahane(out)
Sharma(out - already done)
Karthik (out)
Vijay(out -too old,no chance of improvement)
Click to expand...

So who the hell are the replacements if we drop our entire batting line-up?
 
Varun said:
So who the hell are the replacements if we drop our entire batting line-up?
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The new blood.These 30 and above guys are finished,they are walking wickets,Number 1 side in the world cant chase 200 - not good enough.See this series,and if any of them performs keep that one - rest need to go.Drop dhawan asap.
 
austerlitz said:
We need to get rid of the deadwood after this series in our test squad after this series.If they fail -

Dhawan - out(no need to even wait this series)
Pujara-Out
Rahane(out)
Sharma(out - already done)
Karthik (out)
Vijay(out -too old,no chance of improvement)

Rahul should open with a new pick from domestics.
Same for number 3,5,6.
Pant for karthik.
Need to shake things up now.

It can't be worse than it is now.They are batting like tailenders.
Click to expand...

Vijay and Rahane have clearly regressed while during 2014,Rahane Kohli and Vijay equally contributed in away tours.

Pujara and Dhawan are still mediocre outside Subcontinent with no improvement.

On current form, Bhuvi might be our 2nd best batsmen.
 
To see our once great batting line up of Gambhir,Sehwag,Dravid,Tendulkar,Laxman,Ganguly/Yuvraj come down to this is painful.If we had this bowling line up then we would have crushed sides.
Its like deja vu outside of India - its back back to the 90s ,tendulkar gone - India finished.Now Kohli gone,India gone.
 
ExpressPacer said:
Indian batting proving YET again that their batting "powerhouse" solely and primarily consists of ONE single good player who carries the entire batting lineup. It is their luck that this lone warrior happens to be one of the greatest player in the history of the game, there, keeping the entire teams performance at a respectable level.

Without Kohli, this Indian batting lineup would be at minnow level most likely.
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So what does that make of England batting lineup who were out of 80 runs only for poor Sam Curren to save them? Minnows are the folks who gets whitewashed at home to Lankans.
 
Lol at folks saying that Rahul is the nex coming of Sachin and Kohli and Rahane was the best test player in the team....
 
Snak3eye5 said:
Lol at folks saying that Rahul is the nex coming of Sachin and Kohli and Rahane was the best test player in the team....
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Who knows future? Kohli looked similar to rahul in his first tour to england. And this is just 1st test so he should play all test matches and depends how much he can improve.
 
In tests its true right now but in odis & t20s we have other match winners.
 
ExpressPacer said:
Indian batting proving YET again that their batting "powerhouse" solely and primarily consists of ONE single good player who carries the entire batting lineup. It is their luck that this lone warrior happens to be one of the greatest player in the history of the game, there, keeping the entire teams performance at a respectable level.

Without Kohli, this Indian batting lineup would be at minnow level most likely.
Click to expand...

If you are talking about away tours strictly then yes, without Kohli's contribution it's impossible to win away tours. But isn't it the case with every team. England won test match in India because their best player KP played that inning. Aus will need runs from Smith in turning pitches of India to win test series. and so on.

If you talk about whole team, our bowlers are better than batters in away tour/so are in home.
 
Sam99 said:
In tests its true right now but in odis & t20s we have other match winners.
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You have to see it in the context.When English top order themselves are getting back in the hut in just 80 odd runs in their own conditions, how do you expect our batsmen to hold the fort. The current test batting skills are low all over the world due to lot of LOI cricket on Flat pattas, but if we compare the current standard, Indian top order is pretty good.
 
A team which had

Sehwag(49)
Gauti(42)
Dravid(52)
Tendulkar(53)
Laxman(46)
Ganguly(42)
Dhoni(wkt)(38)

has now gone down to:-

Vijay( Avg- 40)
Dhawan( 42)
Rahul (39)
Kohli (54)
Rahane (42)
Pandya(35)
Karthik(wkt)(27)

And the guy at bench may average 50 overall but outside Asia, he is averaging in 20s.
 
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