True... though they had a few good results after that, deep down the trauma was permanent after the WC. Just made it to the WC semis once, never again to the finals.
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India's atrocious record away from home against the top nations since 2011
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True... though they had a few good results after that, deep down the trauma was permanent after the WC. Just made it to the WC semis once, never again to the finals.
in_cutter
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[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] It seems you relish Pakistan doing badly. What I notice is that you give credit to external factors whenever Pakistan do well & all praise for India when they are doing well.
in_cutter
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Everyone that criticises India is ‘anti-Indian’.
How dare they have their own opinion.
Your argument makes sense is flukes are the order of the day.
UN talkz
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U are pretty late to know that...
Mamoon
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I don't relish Pakistan doing badly. However, we are a mediocre side and it is hard for us to win against the top teams without certain things going our way. On the contrary, India is a world class side and deserves to be praised. They are levels above us in all formats.
Slog
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It really is atrocious if you look at it 2011 onward
Abdullah719
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The win today is only India's 3rd Test win outside Asia or the Caribbean since 2011.<br><br>Played 28<br>Won 3<br>Lost 19<br>Drawn 6<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ENGvIND?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ENGvIND</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1032236764507852801?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 22, 2018</a></blockquote>
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<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Madplayer
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This means in England, Australia, South Africa and Newzealand, right?
I wonder what the record of other teams is in these countries in the same period.
Pretty embarrassing record tbh. How there was no churn of either captain or the team members after losing 4-0 twice in one year is beyond me. Any other country or sports and those kinda defeats would have meant complete change of personnel but we just carried on like normal business. Oh yeah we got busy with Sachin's farewell.
the_outsider
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Isn't it funny how easy it is to use statistics to exaggerate a point?
Why "since 2011"? Why just the last 7 years? Why 7 exactly? Batsmen, bowlers, captains, coaches have changed many times over in this phase so surely it can't be any of those criteria.
So what's the rationale of choosing 2011 as the starting point for this statistical "insight"?
If you take 2006-18 for example, the number of wins overseas goes up to 7 and draws go up to 11.
Since 2006 in SENA India's record is:
Played 41
Won 7
Lost 23
Draw 11
1. Does any other SC team have a better record in SENA in this period? Idk but I would assume not.
2. Does any team team other than Australia have a better record in foreign conditions? I have to doubt it.
3. Now I know India seems like a HTB but I think England is showing us how it's not a bad thing to be a HTB by losing at home as often as they do.
In the same period of 2006-18 India have lost a grand total of 1 home series.
And from 2013 till now - in the last 7 years - India hasn't lost a single home series. I may be wrong but I think no other team has achieved that distinction in this period.
It's crazy how many different pictures you can paint just by moving around some numbers.
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BlackShadow
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In 2025, such threads will talk about last 14 years, in 2030, such threads will talk about last 19 years.
Gotta include 2011's 8-0, or the stats lose sheen.
Can't agree more.
Ab Fan
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India were an excellent test team between 2000 to 2010 because they were dominant at home and very good away.
Since 2011, India have lost their fab four, Kumble and Zaheer and went into slump. Things have changed after 2014 and the ongoing overseas tour is the time for India to start winning games overseas.
Unfortunately, we underperformed in SA(no excuses plz), if we lose 2-1 or 3-1 in England it is again an under-performance because this is a very weak England side and then there are two more tours ahead, of NZ and Australia.
This is a team that should win a test series in one of the four countries- Australia, England, South Africa, New Zealand. Not sure if this will happen and if this doesn't happens, then there is nothing to be proud of no.1 ICC ranking.
Since 2011, India have lost their fab four, Kumble and Zaheer and went into slump. Things have changed after 2014 and the ongoing overseas tour is the time for India to start winning games overseas.
Unfortunately, we underperformed in SA(no excuses plz), if we lose 2-1 or 3-1 in England it is again an under-performance because this is a very weak England side and then there are two more tours ahead, of NZ and Australia.
This is a team that should win a test series in one of the four countries- Australia, England, South Africa, New Zealand. Not sure if this will happen and if this doesn't happens, then there is nothing to be proud of no.1 ICC ranking.
the_outsider
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Yes I agree with you on this.
Other teams (Other than SA) have better stats than India, but nothing great.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2011;spanval2=span;template=results;type=team
Nikhil_cric
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It is a garbage record. Even this year we should have performed better in both SA and England. But why specifically 2011 though? Let's compare with Pakistan for instance . We toured both SAF and OZ once more than Pakistan did. That's around 7 tests more than PAK did in those countries. Last time Pakistan toured there they were both whitewashes. Pakistan has a brilliant record in England which we cannot match in a long time but overall in SENA countries, you have only won 3 tests too in this period.
barah_admi
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Pakistan were far more competitive and if two sessions of play had gone better, would have gone into the 3rd test against Aus with a win and a draw. India never came that close or played that well. Pakistan also happened to be the bigger draw and drew the largest day night crowd till England arrived.
To top it all off, no one talks about Pak being a great side but the cricketing media has invested heavily in India...an Indian side which has done nothing of note in that time.
cricketindiafan
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We don't lose Tests to Zimbabwe and West Indies
As for Pakistan being more competitive vs Australia, well 0-2 in a 4 test series (and consistently scoring 450+) vs 0-3 whitewash in a 3 test series tells you the story
Brodipet_baadshah
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forget about sessions if parthiv held onto the catch or if sydney cheat didnt happened or if ashwell prince hadn’t got survived because of umpiring blunder..India would not have won just a match but multiple series in Australia and a series win in SAF
So lets not get into ifs and buts please
ManFan
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We don't lose Tests to Zimbabwe and West Indies
As for Pakistan being more competitive vs Australia, well 0-2 in a 4 test series (and consistently scoring 450+) vs 0-3 whitewash in a 3 test series tells you the story
Except that neither Pakistan or India won a single match the last time they toured.
Drawing a Test match is not an accomplishment if you fail to win a single Test on the entire tour.
And Pakistan scored 300 in all 3 Tests and 450 odd in the first two.
Picking a particular stat that you like is how the game is played.
In a recent thread [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] compared unfavorably the current Indian team to the late 1980s Pakistani team by pointing out that Indian team lost 4 matches in a year while the Pakistani team lost 4 matches in 7 years.
What he omitted was that the Pakistani team at its peak won 9 matches (9/32 = 28% ) during its peak years, while the current Indian team has won (23/34 = 68%) of its matches prior to the latest unfinished series.
Nikhil_cric
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Could have , would have, should have doesn't do it? While our record is equally rubbish, we got two hard earned draws in Australia, a draw in NZ and a win and a draw in SA while PAK got whitewashed in all 3. We also toured better in SL and WI. The real difference is England where we have been rubbish and Pakistan have been damn good.
Just a clarification, are you saying that drawing a Test is the same as losing a Test?
ManFan
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No.
The poster I quoted was trying to make the claim that India’s performance in Australia last time was better or at least much more competitive than that of Pakistan.
And while 0-2-2 is a better scoreboard than 0-0-3, it’s not an advantage when comparing the two team’s performance with each other, especially since neither won a single Test.
the_outsider
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ManFan
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It’s ManFan by the way.
And India did in fact lose the series and not draw it, which renders in my view, the two draws useless.
When did you a play a draw match in Australia forget about winning a match ??
When did you win a series in england we won a series in there.
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ManFan
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India has always been better than Pakistan in Australia, especially in the last two decades.
But the difference in wins is only a grand total of ONE.
Of course, later this year, India has a high chance of widening that gap.
If a draw is <b>useless</b> then you are actually arguing that <b>a draw is no better than a loss.</b>
As obviously a draw can't be worse than a loss, it follows logically that you are saying a draw is the same as a loss.
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ManFan
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If in a DIRECT comparison with another team, a draw is no better than a loss because it does not positively change the result.
A drawn series is better than a lost series but a draw in a lost series is no better than no draw in a lost series.
He won't answer that, he is forgetting the fact that india won a test series in england but Pakistan did none
ManFan
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Yes I did.
ManFan
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Pakistan has the same number of Test series wins in England that India does.
No you didn't, I think you guys have the longest streak of not playing a draw ur winning a test against any other country
How many series win in last 2 decades ?
ManFan
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A better measuring stick would be the last six tours and by that measure, the same number as India with one.
ManFan
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We last won a match in Australia in 1996 and since then it has been 12-0.
India have had two victories since 1996 in Adelaide 2003 and Perth 2008.
Why last 6 series ? Why not the last decade?
You forgot to mention draws. Anyways 12-0 is some kind of a record without a single draw
ManFan
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Because if you go by one decade then neither side has won.
ManFan
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Yes and it is atrocious.
Which is why the likes of Ian Chappell asked Pakistanis to stop touring if they keep returning each time to get whitewashed.
cricketindiafan
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One word - whitewash. Thank you.
ManFan
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cricketindiafan
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Whatever makes you happy. Not too many teams have drawn two tests after battling on the day 5 on Aussie pitches in a single series. Will always take that over a 'competitive whitewash'
ManFan
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The only reason India is considered better than Pakistan in Australia is because in the past two decades, they have two more wins and one more throughout their history.
Not because of draws.
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ManFan
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Two words: Moral victory
lets cut the cake...
You got to continue the trend and make it three words.
Mission Failed:
Press Start.
Three words: Win Draw/Tie Loss
ManFan
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the_outsider
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I know.
This isn't an ICC knockout tournament. It's a bilateral series. By definition, the results of each test matter.
Unless you are saying that winning a four test series 4-0 is the same as winning it 1-0.
ManFan
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Your example is not adequate for the discussion because it is a series where the team won.
The entire discussion has been about Pakistan and India on their recent tours to Australia.
And both failed to win one Test, so drawn Tests are nothing but clutching straws because they were drawn Tests in lost series.
the_outsider
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These are stats from 2006 till present. India has the highest number of test wins in SENA for any SC team. Also has the highest number of draws by any team in SENA countries.
On top of that, they have been virtually unbeatable at home.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2006;spanval2=span;template=results;type=team
I hope this brings some relief to all the people who are shocked that India is the number 1 test team in the world.
On top of that, they have been virtually unbeatable at home.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2006;spanval2=span;template=results;type=team
I hope this brings some relief to all the people who are shocked that India is the number 1 test team in the world.
ManFan
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India have been great for the last theee years, they deserve the number one ranking.
barah_admi
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The real difference is that India have been ranked at one for longer, supposedly had a better team, are better funded and promoted more heavily by the media but never been competitive, or more competitive than Pakistan. That's pretty pathetic.
JaDed
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[MENTION=143937]ManFan[/MENTION] India's performance in Aus has been better than Pak since 1999 , it's not a recent phenomenon, compared to Englnd and Saffers it's bad no doubt .
Your logic is similar to saying drawnseries shouldn't be counted which would be case with Pak vs England but only won should be counted which would be India vs England in 2007.
Your logic is similar to saying drawnseries shouldn't be counted which would be case with Pak vs England but only won should be counted which would be India vs England in 2007.
ManFan
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I said exactly what you wrote about the overall record of India compared to Pakistan in Australia. That’s not a point of contention.
My logic is this:
Draws in Lost series are no better than a whitewashed series becuse they do not positively effect the end result.
the_outsider
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In every first-class league around the world drawing a match earns both team points. Unless you are saying that universally accepted practice has no significance or merit whatsoever, please explain how drawing a test match is "clutching at straws" and the same as losing outright?
Or perhaps you feel forced to equate losses with draws because otherwise, it would make the 0-3 whitewash in 2017 look rather shambolic.
Nikhil_cric
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There is no correlation between media promotion and performances otherwise BD would be one of the top teams going around. We do have a better team. Our away performance s are just as bad as yours overall in these years but since when did getting ranked 1 in 2016 depend on performances five years previously. ? Besides, atleast in Asia, the gulf between the two teams is massive currently.
barah_admi
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You keep jumping from one point to another. Stay on topic. India has been abysmal as number one ranked team against better sides ,specifically outside of Asia. Why can't they replicate Pakistan's success? Or even if you insist they have been the same, why do you think that is ap oint of pride? Pakistan is a team unable t orecover from the loss of Wasim, Waqar, Inzy and Yousuf. They cant play at home, they dont tour as much etc yet their performances have been equivalent if not better.
Just man up and admit India have a seriously problem, mainly revolving around weak batsmen and bowlers.
This is true for all the touring teams nowadays. Pakistan is pathetic to say the least after loosing to sri lanka in emriates.
ManFan
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The 2016/2017 Pakistan whitewash in Australia was shambolic.
But drawing two Tests in Australia while losing the series is not any better.
For example, England lost 0-1-1 in New Zealand but 4-0 when they last toured India.
Would they consider both tours as success?
Even if they consider themselves to have been more better in NZ than the WI who lost 2-0-0 in NZ, they would “clutching straws”.
Nikhil_cric
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Who said it is a source of pride? I only pointed out that we haven't done much worse than other teams . Our number 1 ranking was primarily because we beat every team at home ruthlessly in the last 5 years and are the only team to not lose at home in this period? Who denied that? Pakistan have also won only 3 tests in these countries put together. England have only won 3 tests in Asia in this period and Australia - 3 I think. Saffers two tests in Asia. NZ two tests in Asia. Please show me which team has won so many matches in difficult conditions?
the_outsider
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So let's simplify this. If you were part of the English squad - which tour would you feel was a better one? The 0-1(2) tour of NZ or the 0-4(5) tour of India?
ManFan
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I would think that as a member of the English cricket team, I would prefer the prior because we lost one match and not four.
the_outsider
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My point exactly. How many matches you lose matters. It's not just about wins. Especially on tours.
Both those series are losses. So why does it matter what the scoreline is? Because losses matter just like wins do.
Any team would rather lose 0-2 than 0-4 in a 5-test series.
Draws hold value because (as you also agreed) minimizing losses has value.
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ManFan
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Yes but not in a direct comparison with another series loss.
It goes back to the NZ point.
If ENG fans argued they had a better tour of NZ than the WI, it wouldn’t really make much sense although they managed one draw (which was more of a loss considering the fact they failed to dismiss the 9 wicket stand).
Part of the reason why draws are rare in Test cricket nowadays and not greatly celebrated (unlike drawn series overseas) is because teams would much rather attempt to win rather than to draw. (Obviously, if it is a situation like yesterday than not so much because ENG still have the lead).
My point is not about draws but specifically, drawn Tests in series that are lost in comparison to another lost Test series.
Are they officially recognized as a better result than a loss?
Yes.
But to claim that they are an advantage in a comparison is useless because ultimately it does little to change the series result.
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the_outsider
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You are stripping down a 4 or 5 match test series to a binary and that is where I feel you are going wrong in your analysis.
India lost 0-4 in 2011 and 0-2 in 2014 in Aus. Both series were lost but nobdy who saw both series would say that the competition was in any way comparable or that the effect of those two scorelines are the same.
Draws in overseas games still matter a lot.
Australia or England drawing a test in India is a victory for Aus/Eng
Ind/Pak drawing a test in SA/Aus is a victory for the former.
ManFan
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I disagree with the last part.
India and Pakistan have had plenty of draws in those countries so they would value a win more so than a draw.
But let’s agree to disagree.
the_outsider
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That is obvious. A win is the best possible outcome anyway.
But would you rather draw a test at the MCG or lose it? I can understand losing a match while trying to go for a victory in the 4th innings. But clearly, a draw is better than an outright loss, especially overseas.
ManFan
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You stated that a draw was like a victory for the touring team.
I believe that unless it is one that prevents a certain defeat and ensures winning the series than and only than can it be considered the equivalent of a victory.
the_outsider
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Fair enough. But a draw under any circumstances is better than a loss, especially overseas. It is objectively better. There are no two ways about it.
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