Is it acceptable behaviour to deface/destroy monuments as part of the Black Lives Matter protests?

[MenInG]

A few in UK have been destroyed/defaced - and I am sure plenty more will given the same treatment in the future all over the world.

Question really is whether this is justified and if so, why?

 

[Yossarian]

Yes. Continuing to honour an individual who's known to have at least facilitated, as well as being directly been involved, in capturing/transporting/selling hundreds of thousands of men, women and children into slavery, is despicable.

 

[MenInG]

Yes. Continuing to honour an individual who's known to have at least facilitated, as well as being directly been involved, in capturing/transporting/selling hundreds of thousands of men, women and children into slavery, is despicable.

But should that not be left to the governments by means of a democratic process to do?

 

[MenInG]

Please add vote also

 

[sweep_shot]

I never understood the needs for monuments. These structures use up lots of spaces. These spaces can be used to build other useful architectures or even plant trees.

So, I don't mind if BLM destroys these.

 

[uberkoen]

The question one should ask is that why do they have monuments and statutes up for slave traders in the first place?

 

[Shazzam]

If this helps society in eradicating racism I see nothing wrong with it.

 

[uberkoen]

Do you not remember the images that were broadcasted globally when Saddam Hussein's statue was pulled down? It was considered an act of independence and freedom from tyranny. Now when black people are pulling down statues of slave traders it is considered damage to public property?

 

[MenInG]

Do you not remember the images that were broadcasted globally when Saddam Hussein's statue was pulled down? It was considered an act of independence and freedom from tyranny. Now when black people are pulling down statues of slave traders it is considered damage to public property?

Do you feel that there is an equivalence between a Saddam run Iraq and a modern democracy like the UK where there are so many venues available for this sort of outcome?

 

[Mamoon]

Absolutely not.

 

[Rana]

I feel bad for Churchill’s, and I wouldn’t want Gandhi’s statue to be defaced (due to his racist history also).

The one in Bristol makes sense though.

 

[MenInG]

The slave trader statue that was toppled in Bristol was an "affront", the city's mayor has said - but it will still "highly likely" end up in a museum.

Speaking on Kay Burley@Breakfast, Marvin Rees said that "as an elected politician I cannot condone criminal damage".

But he added: "I can't pretend, as the son of a Jamaican migrant myself, that the presence of that statue to a slave trader in the middle of the city was anything other than a personal affront to me and people like me."

Mr Rees continued: "We will get the statue back and it will highly likely end up in one of our museums.

"What's happened to this statue is part of this city's history and it's part of that statue's story."

The statue of Edward Colston was yanked off its plinth and later sprayed with paint and dumped in the city's harbour during protests in support of the Black Lives Matter movement on Sunday.

The killing of George Floyd in police custody in the US has sparked demonstrations around the world, including in the UK.

While the protesters here have voiced their anger at the killing of Mr Floyd, they have also sought to highlight issues faced by black people in the UK and call for action to tackle racial injustice.

Thousands turned out across the UK for the demonstrations, despite warnings for people not to gather during the coronavirus pandemic.

The Home Secretary said the toppling of a statue of a slave trader in Bristol was ‘vandalism’, and ‘undermines’ anti-racism protests.

Speaking in the wake of the Bristol incident and further clashes between protesters and the police in London, Prime Minister Boris Johnson said the anti-racism protests have been "subverted by thuggery" that betrays their cause.

Home Secretary Priti Patel said the Bristol incident was "utterly disgraceful" and would detract from the protesters' cause.

"Sheer vandalism and disorder is completely unacceptable," she said.

Ms Patel wrote on Twitter on Monday morning: "These demonstrations have been subverted by thuggery. Justice will follow."

Policing minister Kit Malthouse told Sky News: "The way we do things in this country is by democratic process, not by mob rule.

Kit Malthouse

Policing minister condemns Bristol 'mob rule'
"Undoubtedly in what was done to that statue, a crime was committed. An investigation should be under way and I hope that prosecutions will follow.

"We can't have decisions by mob."

Asked about these comments, Mr Rees said: "I don't think that's a very helpful way to describe it.

"I think the home secretary is showing a lack of understanding of where the country is right now.

"I would love to hear some outrage about the 25% of kids in my city who live in poverty, the growing inequality, the deaths in custody both here and in the United States, the militarisation of US streets, the Windrush scandal.

"You can't be selective with your outrage."

In London, 12 people were arrested and eight officers injured during Sunday's protests.

The Metropolitan Police said most of these were for public order offences, while one was for criminal damage following an incident at the Cenotaph.

On Saturday, 29 people were arrested and 14 officers injured in the capital.

The Bristol protests were attended by an estimated 10,000 people and there were no arrests, police said.

Avon and Somerset Police has said it is investigating after a "small group" committed criminal damage.

Colston made his fortune off the back of the slave trade in the 17th century and helped build schools, churches and homes for the poor in Bristol.

A petition to remove the statue - which had stood for more than 120 years - had received 11,000 signatures.

https://news.sky.com/story/george-f...e-reveals-what-will-happen-to-it-now-12002703

 

[Rana]

If this helps society in eradicating racism I see nothing wrong with it.

You have to grow up in this country/society to understand its racial dynamics.

Those fighting for racial equality on the streets lol...

 

[gani999]

Destroying monuments amounts to vandalism, which deserves to be punished.

Besides, the past cannot be changed. It is more important to learn from the past and make a better future for everyone, than waste time doing symbolic stuff like destroying monuments.

 

[moghul]

No, monuments are part of history - good or bad - and should not be touched.

If we start destroying everything or monument related to slavery and racism in the past, you have to abolish almost everything including white house and have to build a new country. History is history. Why stopping there, why should we not abolish Pyramids in Egypt , how many slaves died while building it. I can go on an on.

 

[MenInG]

No, monuments are part of history - good or bad - and should not be touched.

If we start destroying everything or monument related to slavery and racism in the past, you have to abolish almost everything including white house and have to build a new country. History is history. Why stopping there, why should we not abolish Pyramids in Egypt , how many slaves died while building it. I can go on an on.

But can you understand the anger in the protesters minds which lead to these acts?

 

[Firebat]

No, monuments are part of history - good or bad - and should not be touched.

If we start destroying everything or monument related to slavery and racism in the past, you have to abolish almost everything including white house and have to build a new country. History is history. Why stopping there, why should we not abolish Pyramids in Egypt , how many slaves died while building it. I can go on an on.

The very purpose of monuments and statues are to glorify and celebrate the people or concepts they represent.

It's not the same as erasing history, there are places where all history, good or bad, are represented and told. They're called museums. By giving something a statue and monument in a public place, you are purposely celebrating the ideals that monument represents. In Bristol for example, there is no way a statue of a mass murderer and enslaver should have stayed glorified in a public place where black people move through all the time and have to be involuntarily reminded of their ancestral pain, in a society that has supposedly moved far on from the era of human slavery.

No, we shouldn't leave all, good or bad, monuments where they are. We should very clearly leave the ones that represent the ideals of today's society, and move the bad ones to an environment of education like a museum, instead of an environment of glorification like a monument in the middle of a public square.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The question one should ask is that why do they have monuments and statutes up for slave traders in the first place?

Because that is how this great country was built.

 

[MenInG]

Making a statement to MPs, Home Secretary Priti Patel says any large gatherings of people are "currently unlawful".

She adds: "We cannot afford to forget we're still in the grip of an unprecedented national health emergency that has tragically claimed more than 40,000 lives.

"So the severe public health risk forces me to continue to urge the public not to attend future protests.

"The government's scientific and medically-led advice remains clear and consistent - no matter how important the cause, protesting in large numbers at this exceptional time is illegal and doing so puts everyone's lives at risk."

==

'It's not for mobs to tear down statues'

Ms Patel tells Commons: "As the ugly tally of officer assaults show, some protesters regrettably turned to violence and abusive behaviour at the weekend. This hooliganism is utterly indefensible. There is no justification for it.

"There is no excuse for pelting flares at brave officers, throwing bikes at police horses, attempting to disrespect the Cenotaph or vandalising the statue of Winston Churchill, one of the greatest protectors of our freedoms who has ever lived.

"It's not for mobs to tear down statues and cause criminal damage in our streets, and it is not acceptable for thugs to racially abuse black police officers for doing their jobs.

"The criminals responsible for these unlawful and reckless acts are betraying the very cause they purport to serve.

"These protests are about injustice but by attacking our courageous police, they are acting in a wholly unjust way."

Ms Patel says around 200 protests took place across the country over the weekend, adding more than 137,500 people have attended Black Lives Matter protests across the UK.

===

She tells MPs: "While the majority were peaceful, a lawless minority of protesters have regrettably turned to violence."

Ms Patel says the worst occurred on Saturday evening in London.

She says: "At least 35 officers have now been injured during the protests in the capital. I salute their bravery and wish them a swift recovery.

"The thugs and criminals responsible are already being brought to justice."

Ms Patel continues: "As of this morning, the total number of arrests stood at 135."

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Priti Patel to the rescue of indignant white masses. Doing her job like a good and faithful servant.

(Servant of the country obviously).

 

[MenInG]

London's statues from 'bygone' imperial past to be reviewed, mayor says

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NEW: Today we've unveiled a new commission to review and improve the diversity of London’s public landmarks. <br><br>We must commemorate the achievements and diversity of all in our city - and that includes questioning which legacies are being celebrated. <a href="https://t.co/dro06UQB7Y">pic.twitter.com/dro06UQB7Y</a></p>— Sadiq Khan (@SadiqKhan) <a href="https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/1270258604256514049?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


London mayor Sadiq Khan has ordered a review of the capital's statues and street names after the toppling of the statue of an English slave trader by anti-racism protesters triggered a debate about the demons of Britain's imperial past.

A statue of Edward Colston, who made a fortune in the 17th century from trading West African slaves, was torn down and thrown into Bristol harbour on Sunday by a group of demonstrators taking part in a wave of protests following the death of Floyd.

"Our capital's diversity is our greatest strength, yet our statues, road names and public spaces reflect a bygone era," Khan said. He said some statues would be remove

 

[Bewal Express]

No, any sort of vandalism is wrong. I think all those that moved here knew that Britain had an imperial past, it wasn't a secret, its the reason we ended up in Britain. If a disagree with it then it's fine but I have no right to vandalise any of it.

 

[MenInG]

A further three monuments have been removed over concerns they are racist after protesters toppled a statue of a slave trader in Bristol.

A statue of slave dealer Robert Milligan in the London Docklands was taken down by council workers to cheers from crowds on Tuesday evening, with officials saying it made the move in line with the "wishes of the local community".

Milligan was the founder of the capital's West India Docks and the statue of him was situated outside the Museum of the London Docklands in Canary Wharf.

It comes after Black Lives Matter protesters marching over the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis pulled a statue of slave trader Edward Colston off its plinth and threw it into the harbour in Bristol on Sunday.

The statue of Robert Milligan, covered with a shawl and a Black Lives Matter poster, outside the Museum of London Docklands, London. Pic: James Veysey/Shutterstock

On Tuesday, a caricature of a black man's head, which has a "save me" sign around it, was removed by the public from an 18th century pub sign in Ashbourne, Derbyshire.

More than 28,000 people signed a petition to have the "racist" sculpture taken down from the Greenman pub after it was likened to a "golliwog" - a 19th-century rag doll which is now largely considered racist.

Council officials did not object to it coming down and claimed it was removed in the interests of public safety.

Crowds gathered as the head was taken down by local residents who said they had done it to protect it.

In Antwerp, a statue of former Belgian King Leopold II, who oversaw Belgium's rule of the Congo, was taken down after it was set on fire by protesters last week.

A spokesman for the city's mayor Bart De Wever told The Brussels Times the bust has been moved to the Middelheim Museum where it will be restored.

But he said that it is unlikely to return to its original spot, because there will be "no room for it" when the square it was in is redesigned in 2023.

"It will probably remain part of the museum's collection", he added.

Statue of King Leopold II is removed after being vadalised in Belgium

King Leopold II statue vandalised in Belgium
The decision to remove the Robert Milligan statue came after London Mayor Sadiq Khan launched a review into the capital's landmarks.

Mr Khan told Sky's Kay Burley he wants to "have a city that better reflects the city", adding that "I suspect the committee may take down slavers' statues".

Professor Sir Geoff Palmer thinks plaques should be put under statues saying what the person actually did

'Keep the statues and put plaques under them'

Manchester City Council has also committed to a review into its landmarks, with Councillor Luthfur Rahman describing the "weight of emotion around the symbolism attached to public statues" as "palpable" following the death of Mr Floyd.

Commenting on the removal of part of the pub sign in Ashbourne, Derbyshire Dales District Council said it was "temporarily" pulled down in the "interests of public safety".

It is protected by Grade II-listed status, so Historic England would need to be consulted if it was to be permanently taken down, a spokesman said.

Historic England acknowledged it is a "source of contention and has upset many".

As Black Lives Matter protests continue across the UK and the rest of the world, there is a growing demand for controversial monuments associated with racism and colonialism to be taken down.

There are currently similar petitions in Edinburgh, Cardiff, Oxford and Shrewsbury.

While he said he could not condemn criminal damage to the Colston statue in his city, Bristol mayor Marvin Rees told Sky News the monument was an "affront" to Black, Asian and minority ethnic residents.

But Home Secretary Priti Patel described protesters' actions as "utterly disgraceful" and threatened them with criminal charges.

https://news.sky.com/story/george-f...lave-traders-bust-toppled-in-bristol-12003179

 

[Stewie]

It is very easy for us to debate that when we or our people are not the ones victims of centuries and centuries of oppression. We cry foul over the Brits taking over our lands, or Jews taking over Palestine, but we are talking about a whole race here that was subjugated, treated like animals, put in chains, used for labor like donkeys, women were raped, bred to work in the fields, sold at times like you would sell your used electronics on eBay.

Then we have the audacity to question some of their actions here!


You are lucky they aren’t bombing the crap out of such monuments rather than wait on “sympathasizing and understanding governments” to take these monuments down..



Let me remind you there are State and local governments in southern states who proudly hang on to such monuments, the confederacy flag, statues, and have named places after the civil war era slave owner supporting generals and leaders.

I feel this whole thread is shameful! If there is no damage to other people’s property and life and they are simply tearing down these symbols of oppression, I fully support them!

 

[CricketCartoons]

It is very easy for us to debate that when we or our people are not the ones victims of centuries and centuries of oppression. We cry foul over the Brits taking over our lands, or Jews taking over Palestine, but we are talking about a whole race here that was subjugated, treated like animals, put in chains, used for labor like donkeys, women were raped, bred to work in the fields, sold at times like you would sell your used electronics on eBay.

Then we have the audacity to question some of their actions here!

Some great points. This is how I justify hindu right wing extremism. It is just a minor reaction to centuries of oppression.

 

[Gayle_Force]

The problem with historical monuments (especially statues) is that you either have them or you don’t.

There are far too many practices that were acceptable in the past but are unacceptable now.

I don’t think selectively tearing down monuments achieves anything as I am pretty sure all these historical figures had at least some skeletons in the closet.

 

[Savak]

For such a tough talking individual, Trump has turned out to be a real softie. He would have authorized the police and millitary to use deadly force by now. These blacks should not be allowed to hold a entire country hostage

 

[chacha kashmiri]

This reminds me of the interview of mullah umar when he said he ordered the destruction of the Buddha statues because foreigners would come to try and preserve the statues but didn't care about the humans dying of hunger in Afghanistan or any humanitarian work

 

[Yossarian]

Yes. Continuing to honour an individual who's known to have at least facilitated, as well as being directly been involved, in capturing/transporting/selling hundreds of thousands of men, women and children into slavery, is despicable.

But should that not be left to the governments by means of a democratic process to do?

Upon reflection, I have now changed my mind.

One of the factors that led to this change of mind ....

Scotland’s historical links to slavery should be taught to school children, according to the UK’s first black professor.

Professor Sir Geoff Palmer said making slave history a mainstream school subject was the way to change racist attitudes ..........

[....]

Speaking after taking part in the weekend’s Black Lives Matter protests, Sir Geoff also argued against the demolition of slave traders’ statues — arguing their destruction meant atrocities of the past would be forgotten.

Ultimately, however, the academic — who was knighted for his services to academia and human rights – said education lay at the heart of challenging racism.


https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...olishing-statues-and-the-highland-clearances/

These statues also help to remind us how slavery and racism was once a normal aspect in society. If these statues disappear, then in a few decades or so there is a danger that the role these prominent figures in society played in slavery and other atrocities will start being forgotten.

In which case, perhaps the answer is to keep the statues in place, but with prominent plaques being displayed on them / beside them, detailing the part they played in slavery or other atrocities.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Too many people are trying to rationalise the existence of these monuments and screw them all.

 

[Sirris]

The problem with historical monuments (especially statues) is that you either have them or you don’t.

There are far too many practices that were acceptable in the past but are unacceptable now.

I don’t think selectively tearing down monuments achieves anything as I am pretty sure all these historical figures had at least some skeletons in the closet.

I am pretty sure if we go back long enough in history some of our ancestors themselves were rapists/murderer/slave traders etc.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Belgian city of Antwerp removes a statue of late King Leopold II - who is said to have reigned over the mass death of 10 million Congolese - after it was graffitied by anti-racism protesters. <a href="https://t.co/h975c07xTc">pic.twitter.com/h975c07xTc</a></p>— Al Jazeera English (@AJEnglish) <a href="https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1270355787639066628?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Belgians were one of the worst colonialists for sure.

Why punish the statue? What's that going to do?

Why not demand the descendants of colonialists to return the looted wealth? Are we headed towards a dark place if we start trying to walk this line of thought.

 

[FastBowlingAllrounder]

If they are to be taken down, there should be a proper process for this. The current tearing down/vandalism is only going to ad fuel to the fire and cause further unrest.

People need to understand that, yes, there is anger and uprisings, but to get penetrative change, they need to look at this diplomatically and bring about systematic change. All this loot maar will be in the few months but then it will die over and make way for the next trend.

This defacing, vandalism, massive protests, looting will mean that the only things that is going to change quickly are government policies regarding response to protests, permission to call in army, etc. so something like this doesn't occur again.

 

[Gayle_Force]

I am pretty sure if we go back long enough in history some of our ancestors themselves were rapists/murderer/slave traders etc.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Belgian city of Antwerp removes a statue of late King Leopold II - who is said to have reigned over the mass death of 10 million Congolese - after it was graffitied by anti-racism protesters. <a href="https://t.co/h975c07xTc">pic.twitter.com/h975c07xTc</a></p>— Al Jazeera English (@AJEnglish) <a href="https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1270355787639066628?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Belgians were one of the worst colonialists for sure.

Why punish the statue? What's that going to do?

Why not demand the descendants of colonialists to return the looted wealth? Are we headed towards a dark place if we start trying to walk this line of thought.

Yea on top of my head the Egyptian pyramids and the Taj Mahal are both categorized as wonders of the world but are also products of slave labour.

Should they not also be torn down?

 

[Buffet]

If they are to be taken down, there should be a proper process for this. The current tearing down/vandalism is only going to ad fuel to the fire and cause further unrest.

People need to understand that, yes, there is anger and uprisings, but to get penetrative change, they need to look at this diplomatically and bring about systematic change. All this loot maar will be in the few months but then it will die over and make way for the next trend.

This defacing, vandalism, massive protests, looting will mean that the only things that is going to change quickly are government policies regarding response to protests, permission to call in army, etc. so something like this doesn't occur again.

Main message gets sidelined if whole focus goes on vandalism.

 

[Sirris]

Yea on top of my head the Egyptian pyramids and the Taj Mahal are both categorized as wonders of the world but are also products of slave labour.

Should they not also be torn down?

I had the same thought regarding the pyramids the other day.

Down with the Pyramids!

Unfortunately, the once enslaved Egyptians don't seem to be taking part in the riots.

Despite all the jokes I support the peaceful protesters.

 

[finalfantasy7]

I thought they proved that the jews were paid by alcohol and bread to build the pyramids

 

[Stewie]

Some great points. This is how I justify hindu right wing extremism. It is just a minor reaction to centuries of oppression.

Of course the hindus were subjected to such atrocities and made to work in the cotton fields, right?

And of course the blacks are going around slapping people asking them to turn black and killing them indiscriminately?

Yes, extremists genocidal hindus are behaving just like protesting blacks! Bravo!
You get the top troll of the year award 7 years in a row!

 

[Mamoon]

Do the advocates of destroying statues have absolutely no regard for the hard work and skill of the sculptors?

You can have zero artistic talent and zero appreciation for artwork, but does that really mean that you must have zero respect for the sculptor?

 

[Sirris]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This Congolese man is staring at the severed hand and foot of his 5 year old daughter - punishment for not collecting enough rubber for Belgian King Leopold II. Today people are complaining because a statue of King Leopold has been taken down in Antwerp. <a href="https://t.co/7FeMoIVIbb">pic.twitter.com/7FeMoIVIbb</a></p>— Rupert Wingfield - H (@wingcommander1) <a href="https://twitter.com/wingcommander1/status/1270350039081091072?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Even as a non-black I felt deeply upset.

Colonial crimes were horrible. Belgium was the worst colonial oppressor.

Still how appropriate is it to revisit the crimes of the past centuries and try to incite hatred?

How far back in the history are we willing to go? Only a couple of centuries back or as far back as a milineum?

Are we only going to consider the crimes of one selective group against the other selective group or are we going to be wholeistic in our approach and draw attention to crimes by all groups throughout history?

Frankly, I don't know the answer to these questions and have to think about it.

 

[Mamoon]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This Congolese man is staring at the severed hand and foot of his 5 year old daughter - punishment for not collecting enough rubber for Belgian King Leopold II. Today people are complaining because a statue of King Leopold has been taken down in Antwerp. <a href="https://t.co/7FeMoIVIbb">pic.twitter.com/7FeMoIVIbb</a></p>— Rupert Wingfield - H (@wingcommander1) <a href="https://twitter.com/wingcommander1/status/1270350039081091072?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Even as a non-black I felt deeply upset.

Colonial crimes were horrible. Belgium was the worst colonial oppressor.

Still how appropriate is it to revisit the crimes of the past centuries and try to incite hatred?

How far back in the history are we willing to go? Only a couple of centuries back or as far back as a milineum?

Are we only going to consider the crimes of one selective group against the other selective group or are we going to be wholeistic in our approach and draw attention to crimes by all groups throughout history?

Frankly, I don't know the answer to these questions and have to think about it.

The problem that I see is that destroying statues are not going to have any long-term impact.

Will it give blacks their due rights? No.

Similarly, you can destroy statues of people like Leopold and Churchill, but you cannot erase them from history.

Kids in Belgium and the UK will still learn about the respective figures in history textbooks and their images will be there.

What next? Are we going to burn textbooks and rewrite them so that they are complete erased from history and the future generations learn nothing about them?

So ultimately, what was the point of this useless exercise apart from ensuring that some tourists would not take pictures with them?

Destroying statues only serves as an outlet for angry people who don’t know how to channel their anger (and opportunism in some cases) in a better way.

Statues are a very important part of western culture and they have greatly contributed to the aesthetics of western cities.

In my opinion, anyone found destroying artwork should be taken to task by the authorities. Some people will moan and cry victim anyway. They cannot help themselves.

There could have been some argument in favor of destroying statues of historical racist figures (who have been deemed racist through a modern perspective) if it would potentially have some impact in the long run, which it will not.

Furthermore, we also need to understand that attitude towards racism is largely a social construct. When you were born and where you were born plays a huge role in how you view racism and people of different ethnicities.

A lot of these holier than thou protesters and white knights would have been no better than people like Leopold and Churchill if they were born in their time and in their circumstances.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Upon reflection, I have now changed my mind.

One of the factors that led to this change of mind ....



These statues also help to remind us how slavery and racism was once a normal aspect in society. If these statues disappear, then in a few decades or so there is a danger that the role these prominent figures in society played in slavery and other atrocities will start being forgotten.

In which case, perhaps the answer is to keep the statues in place, but with prominent plaques being displayed on them / beside them, detailing the part they played in slavery or other atrocities.

This was my reasoning in the other thread. Once you erase markers in history, it is also made easier to whitewash it and rewrite it in a form which presents these figures as heroes rather than villains. Maybe statutes don't represent those cities any more, but they still need to be preserved somehow, either as part of a museum, or even more simply, a plaque replacing the praise of the individual with one which denounces them according to current values.

 

[Yossarian]

The problem that I see is that destroying statues are not going to have any long-term impact.

Will it give blacks their due rights? No.

Similarly, you can destroy statues of people like Leopold and Churchill, but you cannot erase them from history.

Kids in Belgium and the UK will still learn about the respective figures in history textbooks and their images will be there.

What next? Are we going to burn textbooks and rewrite them so that they are complete erased from history and the future generations learn nothing about them?

So ultimately, what was the point of this useless exercise apart from ensuring that some tourists would not take pictures with them?

Destroying statues only serves as an outlet for angry people who don’t know how to channel their anger (and opportunism in some cases) in a better way.

Statues are a very important part of western culture and they have greatly contributed to the aesthetics of western cities.

In my opinion, anyone found destroying artwork should be taken to task by the authorities. Some people will moan and cry victim anyway. They cannot help themselves.

There could have been some argument in favor of destroying statues of historical racist figures (who have been deemed racist through a modern perspective) if it would potentially have some impact in the long run, which it will not.

Furthermore, we also need to understand that attitude towards racism is largely a social construct. When you were born and where you were born plays a huge role in how you view racism and people of different ethnicities.

A lot of these holier than thou protesters and white knights would have been no better than people like Leopold and Churchill if they were born in their time and in their circumstances.

What's your views on the toppling and removal of statues of Saddam Hussein? And similarly, statues of a certain individual who led Germany 80 years ago?

 

[MenInG]

A statue of Christopher Columbus in Richmond, Virginia, was torn down by protesters. The statue was dedicated in December 1927, and had been the first statue of Columbus erected in the South.

 

[Mamoon]

What's your views on the toppling and removal of statues of Saddam Hussein? And similarly, statues of a certain individual who led Germany 80 years ago?

Same as above - it served no purpose other than the destruction of the hard work and talent of sculptors.

No one forgot about Saddam because his statue was destroyed.

 

[Robert]

A few in UK have been destroyed/defaced - and I am sure plenty more will given the same treatment in the future all over the world.

Question really is whether this is justified and if so, why?

I would say remove them and put them in museums to examine the role of slavery in a nation’s history.

They are coming down all over the world now.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Instead of putting up statutes of racists, just put them in school courses so people can actually learn about their actions. Make movies if you want. Creat documentaries. Make cartoons to educate children. You don’t have erect Hitler’s statute in the middle of central London to make people remember his atrocities.

 

[Yossarian]

Same as above - it served no purpose other than the destruction of the hard work and talent of sculptors.

No one forgot about Saddam because his statue was destroyed.

So just to be clear, had it been up to you, both Hitler's and Saddam Hussein's statues would still be in place all over Germany and Iraq respectively?

 

[Mamoon]

So just to be clear, had it been up to you, both Hitler's and Saddam Hussein's statues would still be in place all over Germany and Iraq respectively?

I would not commision new sculptures of Saddam and Hitler but I would leave the existing ones as it is. However, if people have too much of an issue with it, I would have them relocated to a museum.

Nevertheless, I would - under no circumstances - allow anyone to harm or to destroy the statue. I would declare it a jail-worthy offense unless the person is willing to pay the cost of repair.

Destroying artwork regardless of the subject is not acceptable under any circumstances unless the artwork was specifically created to offend a certain group.

For example, the Danish cartoons that mocked the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and were designed to offend Muslims.

The sculptures of Saddam, Hitler, Churchill, Leopold II etc. were clearly not commissioned or created for that purpose.

 

[MenInG]

Road signs on Penny Lane in Liverpool have been defaced over claims they are linked to slave merchant James Penny.

The markers had the word Penny blacked out and the word racist written above them on Thursday night.

The city's International Slavery Museum said it was not certain whether the street, which was immortalised in a song by The Beatles in 1967, was named after the 18th Century slave merchant.

A spokeswoman said "more research is needed" to clarify the name's origin.

City tour guide Jackie Spencer, who runs Blue Badge Tour Guides, said she was "absolutely livid".

"It's pure ignorance," she said.

"We've researched it and it has nothing to do with slavery. James Penny was a slave trader, but he had nothing to do with the Penny Lane area."

Liverpool City Council was criticised by historian Laurence Westgaph on Monday for "not doing enough" to acknowledge the city's links with slavery.

Mr Westgaph said he understood the actions, but added residents should "talk to the council and demand certain things that should have been changed years ago".

The city's mayor, Joe Anderson, said he was "frustrated" by the "defacement of our street signs".

"[It] does nothing to further advance the argument and the debate around Black Lives Matter here in Liverpool," he said.

"It isn't just about the artefacts and street names, it's also about how we change the fundamental things that are causing disadvantage and inequality within our city."

Who was James Penny?

Liverpool merchant James Penny captained 11 voyages carrying slaves and had his own shipping company, James Penny & Co
He was one of several Liverpool traders who spoke in favour of slavery at a parliamentary inquiry into the slave trade set up in 1788
In evidence, he claimed slaves on his ships were allowed to play games, dance and sing and would "sleep better than the gentlemen do on shore"

When Penny returned to Liverpool, the city's corporation, which was dominated by those with slaving interests, presented him with a silver-plated table centrepiece in gratitude

Liverpool was Europe's most used slave port by 1740 and many of its streets have names linked to slavery.

However, the International Slavery Museum, which includes Penny Lane in its display of street names linked to slavery, said the evidence linking Penny Lane to James Penny was "not conclusive".

"We are actively carrying out research on this particular question and will re-evaluate our display and change if required," a spokeswoman added.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-52992669

 

[KingKhanWC]

I would not commision new sculptures of Saddam and Hitler but I would leave the existing ones as it is. However, if people have too much of an issue with it, I would have them relocated to a museum.

Nevertheless, I would - under no circumstances - allow anyone to harm or to destroy the statue. I would declare it a jail-worthy offense unless the person is willing to pay the cost of repair.

Destroying artwork regardless of the subject is not acceptable under any circumstances unless the artwork was specifically created to offend a certain group.

For example, the Danish cartoons that mocked the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and were designed to offend Muslims.

The sculptures of Saddam, Hitler, Churchill, Leopold II etc. were clearly not commissioned or created for that purpose.

Yawn, what might be art to you is bricks and mortar to others. If any stone or brick causes hurt or pain, get rid of it.

The problem is where does this stop? Will the Queen give back the Kohi-Noor? I'll eat my hat if she ever does.

 

[ManFan]

Robert E. Lee.

His decision to refuse Lincoln’s offer of command of the Union forces actually ended in more deaths and destruction to his beloved South than if he had simply accepted it.

 

[Mamoon]

Yawn, what might be art to you is bricks and mortar to others. If any stone or brick causes hurt or pain, get rid of it.

The problem is where does this stop? Will the Queen give back the Kohi-Noor? I'll eat my hat if she ever does.

If sculptures are brick and mortar to you, just let it be. Why would you think of destroying brick and mortar especially if you don’t own it and it is public property?

And damaging public property deliberately should land you behind the bars.

Besides, if brick and mortar is causing you hurt and pain, you have deep psychological issues.

 

[Mamoon]

Yawn, what might be art to you is bricks and mortar to others. If any stone or brick causes hurt or pain, get rid of it.

The problem is where does this stop? Will the Queen give back the Kohi-Noor? I'll eat my hat if she ever does.

Britain did not steal Koh-i-Noor. It was legally passed on to the Crown after the East India Company soldiers captured Punjab in 1849 and a treaty was signed.

India and Pakistan have no claim to it anymore.

 

[MenInG]

The statue of African American tennis legend Arthur Ashe on Richmond, Virginia's, Monument Avenue has been vandalised with the words "White Lives Matter", a phrase used as a banner by far-right groups.

Photos show the base of the monument tagged with white spray paint and the words "White Lives Matter" as well as the initials "WLM". Those initials were then later painted over with "BLM", for Black Lives Matter.

Richmond Police said they were alerted to the vandalism at about 10:15am on Wednesday. Police said red paint on the statue itself was already being cleaned off by community members.

The said they have information on possible suspects and are asking the community to call their Crime Stoppers line, which allows people to anonymously report criminal behaviour, if they have information on who is responsible for the vandalism.

The Arthur Ashe monument was dedicated in 1996 to memorialise the Richmond native and counterbalance the string of statues on Memorial Avenue dedicated to Confederate leaders.

The vandalism of the Ashe statue comes as multiple Confederate statues have been toppled, vandalised and slated for removal in the city during protests prompted by the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

The most recent statue to fall in Richmond was the Howitzer memorial, which was erected for troops that fought during the Confederate rebellion to maintain slavery.

The monument showed a Confederate artilleryman standing in front of a gun and was erected in 1892 to memorialise the city's Civil War artillery unit, according to the Encyclopedia of Virginia.

It fell on Tuesday evening after being defaced by demonstrators who rallied against police brutality in the wake of the alleged murder of George Floyd by Minneapolis police in May.

As the US contends with its racist past, US governors are announcing official commemorations of Juneteenth, a popular holiday that celebrates the emancipation of slaves in the US celebrated on June 19.

The date honours June 19, 1865, when the news was delivered to former slaves in Texas that they had been emancipated two years prior.

New York and Virginia have announced this week the holiday will be recognised officially. Virginia will offer paid time off for employees.

They follow Texas, which made Juneteenth an official holiday in 1980.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...frican-american-monument-200617175826232.html

 

[MenInG]

A 24-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of criminal damage after a statue of slave trader Edward Colston was pulled down in Bristol.

The bronze monument was toppled and then pushed into the city's harbour during a Black Lives Matter protest on 7 June.

No arrests were made at the time, but Avon and Somerset Police later released 15 images of people they wished to speak to after looking at footage of the statue being pulled down with ropes.

The statue had been in the city centre since 1895 and is one of a number of tributes to Colston in the city.

The council has since retrieved the statue from the harbour and plans to display it in a museum along with placards from the BLM protest.

Demonstrations took place across the US and the UK last month following the killing of unarmed black man George Floyd in Minneapolis in May.

Referring to the toppling of the statue, Detective Superintendent Liz Hughes said in an appeal on 22 June: "The incident attracted worldwide attention and there's no denying it has polarised public opinion.

"But in the eyes of the law a crime has been committed and we're duty-bound to investigate this without fear or favour.

"I'd like to reassure people we're carrying out a thorough, fair and proportionate investigation and have sought early investigative advice from the Crown Prosecution Service."

Police said a "large amount" of video footage and images of the incident circulated online and on social media, and was examined as part of the investigation.

The force has said the inquiry is still ongoing.

https://news.sky.com/story/edward-c...-monument-in-bristol-during-protests-12019185

 

[Abdullah719]

Trump blasts 'left-wing cultural revolution' at Mount Rushmore

United States President Donald Trump railed on Friday against "angry mobs" that tried to tear down statues of Confederate leaders and other historical figures, warning thousands of supporters at Mount Rushmore that protesters were trying to erase the country's history.

The speech and fireworks on the eve of the US Independence Day came against the backdrop of a pandemic that has killed more than 125,000 people across the country.

The event drew 7,500 people, packed tightly into an amphitheatre. Many did not wear masks, defying the advice of public health officials who have urged people to avoid large gatherings to slow the spread of COVID-19.

Trump, speaking underneath the famed landmark depicting four US presidents, warned that recent demonstrations over racial inequality threatened the foundations of the country's political system.

"Make no mistake, this left-wing cultural revolution is designed to overthrow the American revolution," Trump said.

"Our children are taught in school to hate their own country," he added.

The president announced that he would create a "National Garden of American Heroes", which he described as a large outdoor park featuring statues of "the greatest Americans who ever lived". He did not provide further details.

In the nationwide unrest following the death of George Floyd, a Black man who died in police custody in Minneapolis, protesters in several cities have vandalised the statues of Confederate generals that led a rebellion against the US government during the 1861-65 Civil War.

Spoiler

'Angry mobs'
Protesters in one instance unsuccessfully tried to pull down a statue of Andrew Jackson, the seventh president of the US, outside the White House. Jackson, known for his populist policies, owned slaves and forced thousands of Native Americans from their homes.

"Angry mobs are trying to tear down statues of our founders, deface our most sacred memorials, and unleash a wave of violent crime in our cities," Trump said.

"They think the American people are soft and weak and submissive. But the American people are strong and proud, and they will not allow our country, and all of its values, history, and culture to be taken from them."

He lamented "cancel culture" and charged that some on the political left hope to "defame our heroes, erase our values and indoctrinate our children".

"There is a new far-left fascism that demands absolute allegiance. If you do not speak its language, perform its rituals, recite its mantras, and follow its commandments then you will be censored, banished, blacklisted, persecuted, and punished. Not gonna happen to us," he added.

Trump has opposed proposals to rename US military bases that are named after Confederate generals and promised harsh punishment for people who damage statues.

The evening programme was not an official campaign event, but Trump's remarks touched on key campaign themes meant to energise his political base ahead of the November 3 election.

Al Jazeera's Rosiland Jordan, reporting from the city of Alexandria in Virginia, described Trump's speech at Mount Rushmore as a "political call to arms".

"A couple of facts though," she said. "First, a lot of the statues that have been targeted by anti-racism protesters were in fact then removed by local governments. And the other is that these statues in large part celebrated people who fought for the confederacy, which sought to enshrine slavery as a political and economic reality in the southern half of the US. And those statues were raised not in the 19th century. But in the middle of the 20th century, during the last prominent wave of civil rights activism in this country.

She added: "Now, that doesn't matter to Donald Trump. He is running for re-election and his numbers are down."

Trump has presided over several large-crowd events - in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and at an Arizona megachurch - even as health officials warn against large gatherings and recommend face masks and social distancing. He plans a July Fourth celebration on the National Mall in Washington, DC despite health concerns from the city's mayor.

James Warren, the executive editor of News Guard, told Al Jazeera that Trump had showed a total disregard for the health crisis facing the country.

"This was as Trumpian as you can get. He took this iconic backdrop and you had a president who was clearly and in a somewhat self-absorbed way likening himself to those four great folks. And doing it, as you will notice, without a mask, on a day in which we had broken national records for those testing positive," he said.

"It was, even by Trumpian standards, rather rhetorically bombastic, to liken the protesters - people who symbolised the great presidents behind him - to fascists and totalitarians."

Mount Rushmore, which depicts US Presidents George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln, has not hosted a fireworks spectacle since 2009 because of environmental concerns.

Trump advocated for a resumption of the display, and the state says the surrounding Black Hills National Forest has "gained strength" since then and that fireworks technology has advanced.

Native American protesters were arrested after blocking a road to the South Dakota landmark, according to video livestreamed on social media. They have criticised Trump's visit for increasing the risk of spreading COVID-19 and for celebrating US independence in an area that is sacred to them.

South Dakota, a solidly Republican state, has not been hit as hard as other states by COVID-19, but cases in Pennington County, where Mount Rushmore is located, have more than doubled over the past month.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/...evolution-mount-rushmore-200704044717623.html

 

[MenInG]

Ted Wheeler, mayor of the US city of Portland, has demanded that President Donald Trump remove federal agents he had deployed to the city after some of the officers detained anti-racism protesters on streets far from the monuments and buildings they were sent to protect.

"Keep your troops in your own buildings, or have them leave our city," Wheeler said at a news conference on Friday, describing the arrests and the crackdown on protesters as an "absolute abuse of federal law enforcement officials".

The demand came after multiple videos posted online showed camouflage-clad officers without clear identification badges using force and unmarked vehicles to transport arrested protesters.

"It's kidnapping people!" one person said off-camera, as officers marched a protester away.

A spokeswoman for the US Customs and Border Protection (CBP) told Reuters news agency that federal agents had been deployed to Portland to support a newly launched Department of Homeland Security (DHS) unit, tasked with enforcing last month's executive order from Trump to protect federal monuments and buildings.

The order came amid daily protests in Portland, with demonstrators gathering around the city's federal courthouse to rally against racism and police brutality following the killing of George Floyd, an unarmed Black man, during a May 25 arrest in Minneapolis.

In a statement on Friday, the CBP said its agents were behind the arrest carried out in the video as the officers "had information indicating the person in the video was suspected of assaults against federal agents or destruction of federal property".

"Once CBP agents approached the suspect, a large and violent mob moved towards their location. For everyone's safety, CBP agents quickly moved the suspect to a safer location," the agency said. However, the video shows no mob.

'Blatant abuse of power'
Meanwhile, another video showed an officer shoving away medics trying to aid someone. And still, another showed a protester bleeding profusely from his head after federal troops allegedly shot him with a weapon firing non-lethal munitions.

Portland protester Conner O'Shea said agents chased him in an unmarked vehicle on Wednesday while walking with his friend Mark Pettibone back to their cars.

"I know they're looking for people that are doing graffiti and laser pointing," he said. "We haven't done any of that, which makes it all the more scary."

Oregon Public Broadcasting reported that federal officers have charged at least 13 people with crimes related to the protests so far. Some had been detained by the federal court, which has been the scene of protests. But others were grabbed blocks away.

Kate Brown, governor of Oregon, of which Portland is the largest city, called the deployment of federal troops "a blatant abuse of power by the federal government".

"This political theater from President Trump has nothing to do with public safety," Brown wrote on Twitter, adding that Trump was looking for a confrontation in the hopes of winning political points elsewhere.

Oregon Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum said she would file a lawsuit in federal court against the DHS, the CBP, the Marshals Service and the Federal Protection Service alleging they have violated the civil rights of Oregonians by detaining them without probable cause.

Meanwhile, the American Civil Liberties Union Foundation of Oregon said the federal agents appear to be violating citizens' rights, which "should concern everyone in the United States".

"Usually when we see people in unmarked cars forcibly grab someone off the street we call it kidnapping," said Jann Carson, interim executive director of ACLU, Oregon.

"The actions of the militarised federal officers are flat-out unconstitutional and will not go unanswered."

'Violent anarchists'

Oregon's two senators and two of its House members announced they will also be asking the DHS inspector general, as well as the US Department of Justice, to investigate "the unrequested presence and violent actions of federal forces in Portland".

"It's painfully clear this administration is focused purely on escalating violence without answering my repeated requests for why this expeditionary force is in Portland and under what constitutional authority," Democratic Senator Ron Wyden said.

Acting DHS Secretary Chad Wolf, who visited Portland on Thursday, released a statement that included a list of incidents DHS officers had faced since late May in Portland and praised them in a series of tweets on Friday.

"These valiant men and women have defended our institutions of justice against violent anarchists for 48 straight days," he wrote. He added that DHS officers had been "assaulted with lasers and frozen water bottles" and two officers had been injured.

On Thursday night, federal officers deployed tear gas and fired non-lethal rounds into a crowd of protesters, hours after Wolf visited the city. A few hundred people gathered near the federal court while other protesters went to a police station in another part of the city.

Police told protesters to leave that site after announcing they heard some chanting about burning down the building. Protester Paul Frazier said on Friday the chant was "much more rhetorical than an actual statement".

Portland police said Friday they wound up arresting 20 people overnight.

Homeland Security acting Deputy Secretary Ken Cuccinelli said Friday morning on US TV show, Fox & Friends, that the federal government has a responsibility to protect buildings such as the court.

"What we've seen around the country is where responsible policing is advanced, violence recedes," Cuccinelli said.

"And Portland hasn't gotten that memo. Nor have a lot of other cities. And the president is determined to do what we can, within our jurisdiction, to help restore peace to these beleaguered cities."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...use-power-federal-troops-200717203811566.html