Is Jasprit Bumrah a match-winner for team India?

[The Bald Eagle]

Wow both are match winner GOATs
===
Bumrah went for just 1 run in his first over. Went on to concede 44 in the next 3!

#JaspritBumrah - 0 for 45 (4 overs)
#ArshdeepSingh - 0 for 54 (4 overs)

 

[BreadPakoda]

Wow both are match winner GOATs
===
Bumrah went for just 1 run in his first over. Went on to concede 44 in the next 3!

#JaspritBumrah - 0 for 45 (4 overs)
#ArshdeepSingh - 0 for 54 (4 overs)

As long as they perform in T20 WCs, don’t care.

 

[TheSultan]

Well well well, what a difference a day makes!

 

[Romali_rotti]

Wow both are match winner GOATs
===
Bumrah went for just 1 run in his first over. Went on to concede 44 in the next 3!

#JaspritBumrah - 0 for 45 (4 overs)
#ArshdeepSingh - 0 for 54 (4 overs)

Yeah who wouldve guessed a t20 match where the batsmen is swinging out of their mind.

How dare Bumrah give up so many runs, I now rank him below Waqar and that is pretty bad because Waqar is a bowler I don't rate..

 

[Ab Fan]

There seems to be unnecessary criticism against Bumrah based on every single match which is nothing but cringe.

For example, Curtly Ambrose debuted in 1988 and in 1995, he played 13 ODIs and picked 6 wickets only at avg of 71. He went on to play till 2000.

Such loss of form or occasional phases where you probably save your best for bigger stages happens with even greats. If we don’t whine about SENA players skipping bilaterals or not bothering performing at very high level there, we should give our own players a bit leniency too.

 

[BouncerGuy]

LOL... Bumrah getting beaten left right and centre is not something you would see on most occasions... No bumrah, no party

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Look, I get it. You came in here trying to be a hero who saves the day but you are missing the full context here.

Long story short in my short time here, I've come across discussions where various Indian posters (not you) have had no trouble bringing up how much of a hack Afridi was or sinking the boots in. So if we are using a t20 world cup player of the tournament award as a flex...well, I'm sure you can now figure out why I was having a bit of fun. You just took it literally. Have a good day, sir

No one is using just t20 to show Bumrahs greatness. His test stats are enough to prove his talent, t20 MOTT was just a cherry on top. He has more 5fers in SENA than any Pakistani bowler, bringing Shahid Afridi in this conversation was illogical. He is not in the same league as a player.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

What were you saying Jeet?

Read it again.

Its Pretty surprising to see a fan of Waqar Younis getting so excited when Bumrah gets hit for some runs, I mean didn’t he used to get thrashed every match post his 1992 peak?

 

[TheSultan]

Read it again.

Its Pretty surprising to see a fan of Waqar Younis getting so excited when Bumrah gets hit for some runs, I mean didn’t he used to get thrashed every match post his 1992 peak?

I never claimed Waqar was “hardest to hit”. Waqar was a wicket taker, he was never known for his economy. We had the likes of Aqib to do the donkey work

 

[TheSultan]

You know what - i feel sorry for them. Indian posters just walk in to this type of trolling by head shaking your way to all these tall claims - goat of x, goat of y. He is already better than x,y,z.

If Indians just said look we finally found a good bowler and we are happy with him, he will have his faults, but we understand, and we’ll back him - I would have no problem with that and I will be happy for them after being starved of good seam bowlers for so long.

And after all these exaggerated claims - well, well….what about Waqar….well well…. Ambrose…errr…errr.. you’re the ones claiming he’s better than all for them in the first place.

Just zip it and enjoy the game man

 

[Romali_rotti]

You know what - i feel sorry for them. Indian posters just walk in to this type of trolling by head shaking your way to all these tall claims - goat of x, goat of y. He is already better than x,y,z.

If Indians just said look we finally found a good bowler and we are happy with him, he will have his faults, but we understand, and we’ll back him - I would have no problem with that and I will be happy for them after being starved of good seam bowlers for so long.

And after all these exaggerated claims - well, well….what about Waqar….well well…. Ambrose…errr…errr.. you’re the ones claiming he’s better than all for them in the first place.

Just zip it and enjoy the game man

Agree with most of the post.

But

Bumrah is the asian goat though, 34 matches in SENA with 159 wickets at 21 bowling avg, that is goat right there. Had he not underperformed in NZ he wouldve most likely avged 17-18 which is insane...

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

I never claimed Waqar was “hardest to hit”. Waqar was a wicket taker, he was never known for his economy. We had the likes of Aqib to do the donkey work

Yeah, even his str rate is worse than Bumrah. So he takes wickets faster and doesn’t get hit into the stands like Waqar.

 

[TheSultan]

Agree with most of the post.

But

Bumrah is the asian goat though, 34 matches in SENA with 159 wickets at 21 bowling avg, that is goat right there. Had he not underperformed in NZ he wouldve most likely avged 17-18 which is insane...

had anyone not underperformed in certain series, they would have a better record!

we’ve had this SENA discussion before - it’s not the flex you think it is.

Bumrah has had a good purple patch, if he maintains it and proves himself on flat tracks too (as opposed to friendly SENA) ones, I’ll join you in granting him some sort of GOAT status, until then…..

 

[Romali_rotti]

Bumrah has had a good purple patch, if he maintains it and proves himself on flat tracks too (as opposed to friendly SENA) ones, I’ll join you in granting him some sort of GOAT status, until then…..

Well in India he has a bowling avg of 17...

 

[Buffet]

Well well well, what a difference a day makes!

Does it?

I will suggest taking some free stats 101 class. MIT has a good one.

 

[Buffet]

Some one may take my comment as sarcastic, but it's a geniune comment. Lack of understanding of what hardest to hit may mean or one day making a difference in player who have played 100+ games means exposure to basic stats will be very helpful. We all come from different backgrounds and Sultan has some fantastic insights on fast bowling. So my comments are not meant to put down or anything like that. He is also a passionate cricket fan and goes hard on many Pakistani players.

 

[TheSultan]

Yeah, even his str rate is worse than Bumrah. So he takes wickets faster and doesn’t get hit into the stands like Waqar.

Lol again stats manipulation. You’re comparing against Waqar’s whole career where he declined in the latter half. And even then his strike rate is barely better.

When Waqar took his 200th wicket in his 38th match, his strike rate was 38 with 19 5fers and 4 10fers. Bumrah has played 52 tests strike rate of 43 and 16 5fers and 0 10fers!

I’ll give you a chance and take waqar’s stats up to 1999 - it’s 55 tests, a shade over Bumrah, but I’ll take it (it’s also post second serious back injury to Waqar, but not problem - I’m a generous man). Even then Waqar’s strike rate is significantly lower at 40, with 21 5fers and 5 10fers.

Not only did Waqar have a comfortable advantage in strike rate and might I add comfortably better than any of his peers (Bumrah doesn’t even have the best in this era with Rabada 39.5 over many more tests), Waqar also had comfortably more 5fers and 10fers - which is the sign of a proper strike bowler, destructive bowler and proper match winner.

So I know you’re going to cry about something else, but don’t stress, I’ve got more dummies for you.

 

[TheSultan]

Well in India he has a bowling avg of 17...

India does not have flat tracks anymore and he bowls very selectively where he has more advantages.

If he goes to Bangladesh, SL, UAE and Pakistan and has an average of 17, I’ll declare him the goat myself

 

[TheSultan]

Does it?

I will suggest taking some free stats 101 class. MIT has a good one.

I meant the radio silence by the Indian fans as they were queueing up for my autograph the day before

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Lol again stats manipulation. You’re comparing against Waqar’s whole career where he declined in the latter half. And even then his strike rate is barely better.

When Waqar took his 200th wicket in his 38th match, his strike rate was 38 with 19 5fers and 4 10fers. Bumrah has played 52 tests strike rate of 43 and 16 5fers and 0 10fers!

I’ll give you a chance and take waqar’s stats up to 1999 - it’s 55 tests, a shade over Bumrah, but I’ll take it (it’s also post second serious back injury to Waqar, but not problem - I’m a generous man). Even then Waqar’s strike rate is significantly lower at 40, with 21 5fers and 5 10fers.

Not only did Waqar have a comfortable advantage in strike rate and might I add comfortably better than any of his peers (Bumrah doesn’t even have the best in this era with Rabada 39.5 over many more tests), Waqar also had comfortably more 5fers and 10fers - which is the sign of a proper strike bowler, destructive bowler and proper match winner.

So I know you’re going to cry about something else, but don’t stress, I’ve got more dummies for you.

Now filter those stats against top team, remove all the minnow bashing he did and then present these stats again.

Also add atleast 5-6 points to those averages and str rate to account for ball tampering that he did. Dabbi ball as Asif said. Even Pakistanis dont rate him.

 

[TheSultan]

Now filter those stats against top team, remove all the minnow bashing he did and then present these stats again.

Also add atleast 5-6 points to those averages and str rate to account for ball tampering that he did. Dabbi ball as Asif said. Even Pakistanis dont rate him.

The stats I used went to 1999 - Bangladesh didn’t have test status then! A couple of games against Zimbabwe are the only minnows out of 55 tests, you can take them out lol

Asif can say what he wants - clever bowler but not very clever off the pitch.

 

[Ab Fan]

If Bumrah announces his retirement today, he will still be a better bowler than Waqar.

Waqar’s record is pretty poor vs Australia and India and he didn’t performed against them at their peak either. He feasted on 7th and 8th placed NZ and SL mostly in his career.

 

[TheSultan]

If Bumrah announces his retirement today, he will still be a better bowler than Waqar.

Waqar’s record is pretty poor vs Australia and India and he didn’t performed against them at their peak either. He feasted on 7th and 8th placed NZ and SL mostly in his career.

Who the heck were India in late 80s and 90s anyway? Waqar played at the beginning of his career and at the end of his career against them in tests and imo should not have been selected for the Indian tour of 1999. He wasn’t the second best pacer in the country at that time. This was easily proved by shoaib in the Calcutta game.

 

[Ab Fan]

Who the heck were India in late 80s and 90s anyway? Waqar played at the beginning of his career and at the end of his career against them in tests and imo should not have been selected for the Indian tour of 1999. He wasn’t the second best pacer in the country at that time. This was easily proved by shoaib in the Calcutta game.

Firstly, India back then were better than Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh of today since you want Bumrah to perform against them to prove his credibility which is quite funny because he already performed vs SENA nations.

Waqar never did well vs India and his best exploits were against inferior sides like NZ, SL and Zim. India were a much better side than these nations in 90s. Further, He didn’t do great vs South Africa either as he only had one excellent series there in which Donald annd Fanie de Villiers both outperformed him and he was poor in rest.

So, yeah lacklustre performance vs Aus, SA and India and zero World Cup knockout performance is actually enough to discredit the ATG tag let alone a comparison with Bumrah who is more skillful and has performed vs top teams without being indisciplined with his bowling in any phase of his career. The only point is which Waqar is probably better is pace but in terms of overall skills and performance vs top teams, it’s not even a comparison.

 

[sweep_shot]

Bumrah is just a typical Indian hyped up bowler.

In reality, he is in the same tier as Kemar Roach.

Without hyperextension/chucking, he is worse than that.

 

[TheSultan]

Firstly, India back then were better than Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh of today since you want Bumrah to perform against them to prove his credibility which is quite funny because he already performed vs SENA nations.

Waqar never did well vs India and his best exploits were against inferior sides like NZ, SL and Zim. India were a much better side than these nations in 90s. Further, He didn’t do great vs South Africa either as he only had one excellent series there in which Donald annd Fanie de Villiers both outperformed him and he was poor in rest.

So, yeah lacklustre performance vs Aus, SA and India and zero World Cup knockout performance is actually enough to discredit the ATG tag let alone a comparison with Bumrah who is more skillful and has performed vs top teams without being indisciplined with his bowling in any phase of his career. The only point is which Waqar is probably better is pace but in terms of overall skills and performance vs top teams, it’s not even a comparison.

We’ve done this to death, West Indies?? If NZ were so rubbish how did they draw 2 series vs Australia. See some other threads where I’ve destroyed this argument.

Jokers love to chat breeze in every thread with zero knowledge.

 

[Ab Fan]

We’ve done this to death, West Indies?? If NZ were so rubbish how did they draw 2 series vs Australia. See some other threads where I’ve destroyed this argument.

Jokers love to chat breeze in every thread with zero knowledge.

Well, I have only seen you go defensive in all these arguments but anyways..

NZ drew one series vs Aus in 1989 in which they were on verge of defeat after getting followed on. The other series was the only one where they managed to make a comeback after a crushing defeat in first test. Their overall record tells us that they were the 7th ranked team in the world in 90s and behind India and England throughout Waqar career. NZ were strong only during Hadlee era and now in Williamson era.

Btw, Waqar and Wasim both toured WI twice in their careers in 1992-93 and 1999-00 and Waqar did well in first tour but failed in second. Wasim did well in second tour but failed in first one. Result was same though- neither helped Pakistan to win a test match there. WI won 2-0 in 1992-93 and then WI won 1-0 in 1999-00. So, again they didn’t do anything special- did well in one tour but failed in the other one.

Overall result- they were inconsistent throughout their career away from home. Doing well in one series and failing in the other. The one key difference is that Wasim did well in Australia and India while Waqar didn’t.

 

[Rana]

If Bumrah announces his retirement today, he will still be a better bowler than Waqar.

No he will not

How did your brain come to this conclusion?

 

[TheSultan]

Well, I have only seen you go defensive in all these arguments but anyways..

NZ drew one series vs Aus in 1989 in which they were on verge of defeat after getting followed on. The other series was the only one where they managed to make a comeback after a crushing defeat in first test. Their overall record tells us that they were the 7th ranked team in the world in 90s and behind India and England throughout Waqar career. NZ were strong only during Hadlee era and now in Williamson era.

Btw, Waqar and Wasim both toured WI twice in their careers in 1992-93 and 1999-00 and Waqar did well in first tour but failed in second. Wasim did well in second tour but failed in first one. Result was same though- neither helped Pakistan to win a test match there. WI won 2-0 in 1992-93 and then WI won 1-0 in 1999-00. So, again they didn’t do anything special- did well in one tour but failed in the other one.

Overall result- they were inconsistent throughout their career away from home. Doing well in one series and failing in the other. The one key difference is that Wasim did well in Australia and India while Waqar didn’t.

India you know! Lol India in the 90s you know!

You can keep moving goalposts, I know how it works - read the other threads first and educate yourself.

 

[Ab Fan]

No he will not

How did your brain come to this conclusion?

Based on below factors:-

1. Much better Career avg( with 200+ test wickets)
2. Performances away from home
3. Performance vs top teams( Bumrah- SENA, Waqar - Aus, SA, WI, Ind, Eng)
4. Overall skills as a bowler

A working brain won’t really take much to come to this conclusion. You can try it too with the only condition being one must have a working brain

 

[Ab Fan]

India you know! Lol India in the 90s you know!

You can keep moving goalposts, I know how it works - read the other threads first and educate yourself.

The only one changing goalpost here is none other than you. You have no answers to Waqar’s middling away record vs top 5 opposition of his era - Aus, SA, WI, Ind and Eng. These sides are better than current Pak and SL sides whom you are setting as some kind of benchmark for Bumrah lol.

 

[BouncerGuy]

India is trying every metric to make Bumrah look like he is the ATG.. He might be if he somehow manages to play more games before he retires, but playing less games and doing better in those is something many have done in the past... Ryan is the best ODI player then.

 

[TheSultan]

The only one changing goalpost here is none other than you. You have no answers to Waqar’s middling away record vs top 5 opposition of his era - Aus, SA, WI, Ind and Eng. These sides are better than current Pak and SL sides whom you are setting as some kind of benchmark for Bumrah lol.

View attachment 160015

About Waqar - Go to the other threads and respond there, I’m not going to educate you on every thread.

And about Bumrah vs SL and Pak. It’s not about whether they are great teams. It’s about whether he can get anything out of those pitches. He has never never proved himself on dead tracks. We saw a glimpse vs England at old Trafford - fail. We got a glimpse vs SA in India second test - he was schooled by Jansen on how to get wickets on a flattish track.

Let him go toil on flat tracks and see if he can get anything out of them.

He is a good bowler, I’ve never said he isn’t - and if he stays away from
Flat tracks and his workload is managed, I have no issue with that. but greatness is something else. You have to dare to be great, and he hasn’t.

 

[Ab Fan]

About Waqar - Go to the other threads and respond there, I’m not going to educate you on every thread.

And about Bumrah vs SL and Pak. It’s not about whether they are great teams. It’s about whether he can get anything out of those pitches. He has never never proved himself on dead tracks. We saw a glimpse vs England at old Trafford - fail. We got a glimpse vs SA in India second test - he was schooled by Jansen on how to get wickets on a flattish track.

Let him go toil on flat tracks and see if he can get anything out of them.

He is a good bowler, I’ve never said he isn’t - and if he stays away from
Flat tracks and his workload is managed, I have no issue with that. but greatness is something else. You have to dare to be great, and he hasn’t.

I thought you are better than this. Who told you that only subcontinent pitches can be flat and pitches outside Asia are mostly pace friendly? Back in 90s, the conditions were very friendly to reverse swing in Pakistan and that’s why Waqar or Wasim wrecked havoc. Reverse swing was common from 25-30 overs only. It is not the same today.

Additionally, if Wasim and Waqar were so good in subcontinent on flat pitches, what stopped them from performing at same level away from home vs top teams lol. Are we saying that they were not good in so called friendly conditions of SWENA for seamers?

Each of Imran, Wasim and Waqar did better at home compared to away which tells us that they maximised the home conditions as per their strengths.

Bumrah has already dominated a strong team like England at home on flat decks and he has also dominated the likes of SL, WI, BD at home. He played only 2 tests vs SA but did managed to produce a 5-fer in the first one. He doesn’t have to do it every single time.

Bumrah is comfortably better than Waqar on below accounts:-

1. Career average( minimum 200 wkts)
2. Better away record
3. Better record vs top teams
4. Overall skills as a bowler

It is a no-brainer. Comparison with Wasim is actually much closer and although there have been Indian fans who believe he has gone past Wasim too but I am happy to wait a bit longer before making any judgement on that comparison.