Is Shadab Khan the ideal Test spinner outside Asia?

[Junaids]

It seems to me that outside Asia a Test team needs a minimum of 4 quick bowlers plus a part-time spinner in case they bowl fourth on a crumbling wicket.

And of the five bowlers selected:

One must bat at Number 7 and average 35 or more with the bat.

One must bat at Number 8 and average 22 or more with the bat.

One must bat at Number 9 and average 20 or more with the bat.

Yasir Shah's appalling tours of England, New Zealand and Australia in 2016 really summed up the problem.

Yasir Shah averaged a pathetic 40.73 in England, including innings in which he took 1-213 and 2-172.

In New Zealand he took 0-61 in a low-scoring First Test, and had to be dropped for the Second Test.

Yasir Shah was even worse in Australia: he had averaged a horrific 84.00 and his spells were:

2-129
1-45
3-207
1-167
1-124

In fact, Yasir Shah bowled 148 overs in Australia, of which just 11 were maiden overs.

Obviously Yasir Shah's performances were made worse by the gross incompetence of Misbah-ul-Haq as captain, giving him ludicrous fields to bowl to.

But the bottom line is that Yasir Shah proved that a specialist leg-spinner who can't bat is not ideally suited to Tests in England, New Zealand and Australia.

But a player like Shadab Khan could be ideal.

If you accept that the spinner is just a part-time bowler in the first three innings in those countries, perhaps it would be better to pick one who can keep an end fairly tight but average 35 or more with the bat?

If you look back to the Australia tour, Pakistan came within 39 runs of victory at Brisbane, where Yasir Shah scored 1 and 33.

And Pakistan survived until the final hour in the MCG Test, in which Yasir Shah did not score a run.

I would argue that Shadab Khan might well have won the First Test for Pakistan with the bat, and would have been quite likely to have drawn the Second Test.

Given that Pakistan can't field a fourth seamer at Number 7 who can average 35 with the bat (or at Number 6 and average 40), then the obvious alternative is to use Shadab Khan at Number 7.

I would think that the best chance of success in South Africa this December would be to field a team looking something like this:

6. Sarfraz Ahmed (wk)
7. Shadab Khan
8. Mohammad Amir
9. Hasan Ali
10. Shaheen Shah Afridi
11. Mohammad Abbas

 

[Titan24]

Yes Shadab can be vital in future even in UAE but I would like to have someone like Faheem or Talat being groomed in tests as that will give luxury of having two all rounders at 5 down and 6 down position as well as 5 bowling options which is a key for your main bowlers to remain fit and bowl with the same intensity even in the last session.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

I will really enjoy when this entire theory of OPs will bit by bit crumble in the coming 4-6 weeks.

If Test level cricketers are born and not made via grueling first class performances then Umer Akmal would've been the best batsman to ever step foot on a cricket field.

 

[Titan24]

I will really enjoy when this entire theory of OPs will bit by bit crumble in the coming 4-6 weeks.

If Test level cricketers are born and not made via grueling first class performances then Umer Akmal would've been the best batsman to ever step foot on a cricket field.

Umar Akmal is an extreme case.

However, you have got example of David Warner, didnt play a lot of first class and developed into a pretty good test opener. Joe Root averaged 35 in first class when he made his test debut. There are numerous such examples where player before playing a lot of first class matches have been developed into world class test cricketers.

I have no doubt Shadab can be groomed for test matches.

 

[Markhor]

Yasir may have had an average of 40 in England but was instrumental in bowling us to victory at Lord's and The Oval two years ago. However he would not have had a big role in the first three days of a Test in early season English conditions.

Shadab can be accomodated in a five man attack. To play the role that Yasir did in a four man attack, holding up an end and allowing the captain to rotate his other bowlers, will be very difficult for someone with his heavy reliance on the googly and little FC experience.

If anything it seems his ability with the bat is what ensured his selection.

 

[Junaids]

Yasir may have had an average of 40 in England but was instrumental in bowling us to victory at Lord's and The Oval two years ago. However he would not have had a big role in the first three days of a Test in early season English conditions.

Shadab can be accomodated in a five man attack. To play the role that Yasir did in a four man attack, holding up an end and allowing the captain to rotate his other bowlers, will be very difficult for someone with his heavy reliance on the googly and little FC experience.

If anything it seems his ability with the bat is what ensured his selection.

My point is that Pakistan should never have a four man attack outside Asia.

 

[hk031992]

My point is that Pakistan should never have a four man attack outside Asia.

I agree that a four man attack does not work

However Shah did well in england, he took a 10 for in the first match and got another 5 wicket haul later on in the last match

 

[giri26]

We will know in few months. I just hope the fans don't expect miracles from him. He is still young and will have some failures. Bowling in ODI/T20's is way different than bowling in tests.

 

[Nil Dhumrojal]

No, Overrated.

 

[babajee]

No, Overrated.

Why?

 

[Arham_PakFan]

Not at the moment.

 

[Hasan123]

Not yet. Need a off spinner who can keep it tight.

 

[ManFan]

He should debut in Tests in 2-3 years time.

No need to rush him right now but I think when he starts playing Test Cricket, he will be the best all-rounder of his generation.

Probably will end his career with statistics like a batting average of 30 and bowling average of 28.

 

[sshakir411]

Shadab will come good in every format. He just needs to understand how to develop his game better.

 

[MMHS]

For these 2 particular Tests, I don't think PAK should pick Shadab. I am always for a specialist leggi in Test team, but that's not by default.

What little spin PAK'll need can be covered by Haris, Asad & Azhar. Leggis need good grip and dry condition, which is rare in early English summer. Ideally, 4 out and out pacer & 6 batsmen, among whom may be 20-25 overs (of spin) can be extracted. Yasir and Shadab offers totally different proposition - Yasir is extremely accurate, therefore even if he doesn't take wicket, he can be used to tie one end and attack from other end. Shadab isn't tight enough for that role and it might end him bowling less than 20 overs in total.

I actually don't believe in bits & pieces all-rounders in Test (& T20!!!!). For me All-rounder in Test team is someone who should make the team only as a batsman or bowler, rather than a combination of two. My Test team will never have couple of David Capple or Ronnie Irani or Mark Elham ..... ; rather I'll play 4 bowlers and extract few runs from them, while few overs from 6 batsmen. For Test team, I like AUS/WI (Old WI, not current bunch) combination than English combination - that's if you are to play Test as an All-rounder, you have to be like Monty Noble, Jack Gregory, Keith Miller, AK Davidson, Richie Benaud, or Liary Constantine, Denis Atkinson, Colie Smith, Gary Sobers, Carl Hooper .....

T20s are bit different game, because it's a bowling game - 20 overs are too less for 6 batsmen & 3 bits & pieces all-rounders to come into play with bat; rather it's better to play 6 batsmen & 5 X 4 bowlers on bowling merit - whatever comes from last 5 with bat is bonus; bowlers also can swing for couple of balls, which is enough for T20, if top 6 don't put them in desperate situation.

For this series, my starting XI will be (only 2 Tests therefore not much change either after 1st Test) -

Azhar, Sami
Babar, Haris, Sarfraz, Asad, Saad
Fahim, Amir, Hasan, Rahat

I must make it clear that Fahim is there for his bowling, not for 15-20 extra that he can add over Abbas. If Abbas can prove his worth with that pace, he should replace Fahim. Ideally, Asad should have batted at 4 now (And Hari 5), with his seniority, but guy is mentally so weak, if he is moved out of 6, it might create panic. I read lots of praises for Usman, may be a good shout instead of Babar, but not sure how good he is against pace.

Another reason is - without Yasir, PAK isn't going to compete if it's a full 450 overs length Test with this batting. If team is to win, it has to be low scoring game - which takes out spinner (3/4 day Test). Ideally, PAK should expect to win toss, bowl first and get Poms out within 100 overs, take a 50+ lead and restrict the 4th innings target below 170. 4 flat out pacers to get 20 wickets in about 170 overs max (Including 20 from side kicks) - that's a work load of around 35 overs from Amir & Rahat each, 38 from Hasan, and ~ 60-70 from Fahim/Abbas + part timers. Those 108 overs has to be absolute flat out, at a SR of 42-43 (that's 15/16 wickets from 108 overs). Above all, bowlers must not need to take more than 23 wickets AT MAX - ideally 20, but I allow 3 drops in 2 innings, things won't happen out of dream.

PS: My # 3 is batting at an average of 23, therefore surely my strategy isn't to extract 35 from #7 & 23 from No. 8. Similarly, I see data in a bit different way - PAK won 2 Tests last time, and Yasir had figures of
60-15-141-10 and 45-6-131-5; that's an average of 18.33, economy of 2.59, SR of 42 with 2 5fors & 1 10for. Not sure, how many 20s & 30s an "all-rounder" will need to put to match that.

 

[BreadPakoda]

No. 7 who can average 35? Lol. 2-3 batsmen from no. 1-6 averaging 35 across the series would be a feat.

 

[babajee]

For these 2 particular Tests, I don't think PAK should pick Shadab. I am always for a specialist leggi in Test team, but that's not by default.

What little spin PAK'll need can be covered by Haris, Asad & Azhar. Leggis need good grip and dry condition, which is rare in early English summer. Ideally, 4 out and out pacer & 6 batsmen, among whom may be 20-25 overs (of spin) can be extracted. Yasir and Shadab offers totally different proposition - Yasir is extremely accurate, therefore even if he doesn't take wicket, he can be used to tie one end and attack from other end. Shadab isn't tight enough for that role and it might end him bowling less than 20 overs in total.

I actually don't believe in bits & pieces all-rounders in Test (& T20!!!!). For me All-rounder in Test team is someone who should make the team only as a batsman or bowler, rather than a combination of two. My Test team will never have couple of David Capple or Ronnie Irani or Mark Elham ..... ; rather I'll play 4 bowlers and extract few runs from them, while few overs from 6 batsmen. For Test team, I like AUS/WI (Old WI, not current bunch) combination than English combination - that's if you are to play Test as an All-rounder, you have to be like Monty Noble, Jack Gregory, Keith Miller, AK Davidson, Richie Benaud, or Liary Constantine, Denis Atkinson, Colie Smith, Gary Sobers, Carl Hooper .....

T20s are bit different game, because it's a bowling game - 20 overs are too less for 6 batsmen & 3 bits & pieces all-rounders to come into play with bat; rather it's better to play 6 batsmen & 5 X 4 bowlers on bowling merit - whatever comes from last 5 with bat is bonus; bowlers also can swing for couple of balls, which is enough for T20, if top 6 don't put them in desperate situation.

For this series, my starting XI will be (only 2 Tests therefore not much change either after 1st Test) -

Azhar, Sami
Babar, Haris, Sarfraz, Asad, Saad
Fahim, Amir, Hasan, Rahat

I must make it clear that Fahim is there for his bowling, not for 15-20 extra that he can add over Abbas. If Abbas can prove his worth with that pace, he should replace Fahim. Ideally, Asad should have batted at 4 now (And Hari 5), with his seniority, but guy is mentally so weak, if he is moved out of 6, it might create panic. I read lots of praises for Usman, may be a good shout instead of Babar, but not sure how good he is against pace.

Another reason is - without Yasir, PAK isn't going to compete if it's a full 450 overs length Test with this batting. If team is to win, it has to be low scoring game - which takes out spinner (3/4 day Test). Ideally, PAK should expect to win toss, bowl first and get Poms out within 100 overs, take a 50+ lead and restrict the 4th innings target below 170. 4 flat out pacers to get 20 wickets in about 170 overs max (Including 20 from side kicks) - that's a work load of around 35 overs from Amir & Rahat each, 38 from Hasan, and ~ 60-70 from Fahim/Abbas + part timers. Those 108 overs has to be absolute flat out, at a SR of 42-43 (that's 15/16 wickets from 108 overs). Above all, bowlers must not need to take more than 23 wickets AT MAX - ideally 20, but I allow 3 drops in 2 innings, things won't happen out of dream.

PS: My # 3 is batting at an average of 23, therefore surely my strategy isn't to extract 35 from #7 & 23 from No. 8. Similarly, I see data in a bit different way - PAK won 2 Tests last time, and Yasir had figures of
60-15-141-10 and 45-6-131-5; that's an average of 18.33, economy of 2.59, SR of 42 with 2 5fors & 1 10for. Not sure, how many 20s & 30s an "all-rounder" will need to put to match that.

What’s wrong with Pak batting lineup

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

Like in the West Indies?

Just like Afridi and Tahir Shadab does not have that bowling temperament yet. He relies on his variations but in Test cricket the bats can easily block those effort deliveries making leggies impatient giving away bad deliveries. Its something even Danish Kaneria had to learn to succeed before he lost it all over again.

I wish Mushtaq Ahmed had been there as he could have talked to Shadab about bowling with a plan and limiting the use of a variation. In tests such bowls should only be used as surprise deliveries. Something Yasir does very well.

If Shadab masters that bowling temperament he will not only contain runs but also take a lot of wickets on the flattest of roads like the UAE.

 

[MMHS]

What’s wrong with Pak batting lineup

No much - last time with YK & Misbah it failed to play out 2 sessions in ENG, NZ & AUS - then failed to chase 180 against WI & 120 against SRL.

Otherwise, on paper (& in PP) it's among the best batting line up in world, probably in history.

 

[babajee]

No much - last time with YK & Misbah it failed to play out 2 sessions in ENG, NZ & AUS - then failed to chase 180 against WI & 120 against SRL.

Otherwise, on paper (& in PP) it's among the best batting line up in world, probably in history.

The past is the past.

 

[MMHS]

The past is the past.

That's also true - you forget every thing and start to believe a PAK batting line up (the order I have set) is like Boycott, Mark Taylor, Ponting, Border, Alec Staurt, Damien Martin & Hashan Tilakratne from 1 to 7. Until that day comes, we can always erase past and look for future.

 

[Hasan123]

No much - last time with YK & Misbah it failed to play out 2 sessions in ENG, NZ & AUS - then failed to chase 180 against WI & 120 against SRL.

Otherwise, on paper (& in PP) it's among the best batting line up in world, probably in history.

Hahahahah what a comeback

 

[Mercurial]

I am not sure if he is an ideal one, but he may click because of his variations, unlike Shah, who was one dimensional, no wonder failed outside Asia.

No way would I go with 4 specialist fast bowlers. It is a suicide. I would go with two specialist fast bowlers. Fahim, as a bowling all rounder at 9, and Shadab at 8. I want to lengthen our batting line up as much as possible.

 

[MMHS]

Hahahahah what a comeback

80% of the problem will be solved if Babar can double his Test average for this series. Guy is given red carpet, protected in silk wool, given No. 3 spot .... and than average 23!!!!!!!

In history of the game, with a No. 3 like that, show me one single decent batting line-up. Either he has to deliver, or get dropped - I don't think it's justice for other players to move around and accommodate Babar at lower spot, when 2 years had been invested for him.

 

[babajee]

80% of the problem will be solved if Babar can double his Test average for this series. Guy is given red carpet, protected in silk wool, given No. 3 spot .... and than average 23!!!!!!!

In history of the game, with a No. 3 like that, show me one single decent batting line-up. Either he has to deliver, or get dropped - I don't think it's justice for other players to move around and accommodate Babar at lower spot, when 2 years had been invested for him.

I blame Misbah.

 

[MMHS]

I blame Misbah.

Partially true - by now Hari & Usman should have been seasoned Test player. Now, at Lord's this is probably the most inexperienced PAK batting line-up since 1960s.

 

[babajee]

Partially true - by now Hari & Usman should have been seasoned Test player. Now, at Lord's this is probably the most inexperienced PAK batting line-up since 1960s.

That along with the fact that Babar was thrusted into test match cricket at number 3. Which ATGs immediately started at 3 in Australia?

 

[shaz619]

My point is that Pakistan should never have a four man attack outside Asia.

Well according to your insight into the mind of Mickey Arther having read his memoirs that shouldn't happen right

 

[Rishta Aunty]

If you really want to have the perfect spinner outside Asia, look no further than a peak (non-chucking) Hafeez. Mainly a bat who can keep it tight with the ball too. Sadly, he's pretty incompetent in any reasonable batting conditions. Don't know yet if Shadab can fill that brief.

 

[Smudger]

I will really enjoy when this entire theory of OPs will bit by bit crumble in the coming 4-6 weeks.

If Test level cricketers are born and not made via grueling first class performances then Umer Akmal would've been the best batsman to ever step foot on a cricket field.

David warner got selected without playing a SINGLE test match
Joe root averaged 35 on test debut
kumar sangamara averaged in 20s after 50 first class matches. Not even scoring a single ton

 

[Hasan123]

80% of the problem will be solved if Babar can double his Test average for this series. Guy is given red carpet, protected in silk wool, given No. 3 spot .... and than average 23!!!!!!!

In history of the game, with a No. 3 like that, show me one single decent batting line-up. Either he has to deliver, or get dropped - I don't think it's justice for other players to move around and accommodate Babar at lower spot, when 2 years had been invested for him.

I would stick with Babar in tests. 1 big score and he should get more.

 

[PakSarZameen]

Whilst Yasir Shah is a problem, Shadab Khan is not the solution (at least not at this stage of his career).

I would rather have someone like Fahim play as the 4th bowler. If his FC stats are anything to go by, then Test cricket should be his strongest format.

 

[MMHS]

That along with the fact that Babar was thrusted into test match cricket at number 3. Which ATGs immediately started at 3 in Australia?

There must be few - instantly the one I can recall is Kanhai; but he was Rohan Kanhai, so I give the BoD to Babar

 

[Junaids]

Whilst Yasir Shah is a problem, Shadab Khan is not the solution (at least not at this stage of his career).

I would rather have someone like Fahim play as the 4th bowler. If his FC stats are anything to go by, then Test cricket should be his strongest format.

I want 5 bowlers. Four quicks and a spinner outside Asia, three quicks and two spinners in Asia.

 

[New Yorker]

For these 2 particular Tests, I don't think PAK should pick Shadab. I am always for a specialist leggi in Test team, but that's not by default.

What little spin PAK'll need can be covered by Haris, Asad & Azhar. Leggis need good grip and dry condition, which is rare in early English summer. Ideally, 4 out and out pacer & 6 batsmen, among whom may be 20-25 overs (of spin) can be extracted. Yasir and Shadab offers totally different proposition - Yasir is extremely accurate, therefore even if he doesn't take wicket, he can be used to tie one end and attack from other end. Shadab isn't tight enough for that role and it might end him bowling less than 20 overs in total.

I actually don't believe in bits & pieces all-rounders in Test (& T20!!!!). For me All-rounder in Test team is someone who should make the team only as a batsman or bowler, rather than a combination of two. My Test team will never have couple of David Capple or Ronnie Irani or Mark Elham ..... ; rather I'll play 4 bowlers and extract few runs from them, while few overs from 6 batsmen. For Test team, I like AUS/WI (Old WI, not current bunch) combination than English combination - that's if you are to play Test as an All-rounder, you have to be like Monty Noble, Jack Gregory, Keith Miller, AK Davidson, Richie Benaud, or Liary Constantine, Denis Atkinson, Colie Smith, Gary Sobers, Carl Hooper .....

T20s are bit different game, because it's a bowling game - 20 overs are too less for 6 batsmen & 3 bits & pieces all-rounders to come into play with bat; rather it's better to play 6 batsmen & 5 X 4 bowlers on bowling merit - whatever comes from last 5 with bat is bonus; bowlers also can swing for couple of balls, which is enough for T20, if top 6 don't put them in desperate situation.

For this series, my starting XI will be (only 2 Tests therefore not much change either after 1st Test) -

Azhar, Sami
Babar, Haris, Sarfraz, Asad, Saad
Fahim, Amir, Hasan, Rahat

I must make it clear that Fahim is there for his bowling, not for 15-20 extra that he can add over Abbas. If Abbas can prove his worth with that pace, he should replace Fahim. Ideally, Asad should have batted at 4 now (And Hari 5), with his seniority, but guy is mentally so weak, if he is moved out of 6, it might create panic. I read lots of praises for Usman, may be a good shout instead of Babar, but not sure how good he is against pace.

Another reason is - without Yasir, PAK isn't going to compete if it's a full 450 overs length Test with this batting. If team is to win, it has to be low scoring game - which takes out spinner (3/4 day Test). Ideally, PAK should expect to win toss, bowl first and get Poms out within 100 overs, take a 50+ lead and restrict the 4th innings target below 170. 4 flat out pacers to get 20 wickets in about 170 overs max (Including 20 from side kicks) - that's a work load of around 35 overs from Amir & Rahat each, 38 from Hasan, and ~ 60-70 from Fahim/Abbas + part timers. Those 108 overs has to be absolute flat out, at a SR of 42-43 (that's 15/16 wickets from 108 overs). Above all, bowlers must not need to take more than 23 wickets AT MAX - ideally 20, but I allow 3 drops in 2 innings, things won't happen out of dream.

PS: My # 3 is batting at an average of 23, therefore surely my strategy isn't to extract 35 from #7 & 23 from No. 8. Similarly, I see data in a bit different way - PAK won 2 Tests last time, and Yasir had figures of
60-15-141-10 and 45-6-131-5; that's an average of 18.33, economy of 2.59, SR of 42 with 2 5fors & 1 10for. Not sure, how many 20s & 30s an "all-rounder" will need to put to match that.

After 5 Tests Abbas has already begun to prove his worth, whereas Faheem has yet to earn any kind of faith in Tests, and Rahat should never have been selected again after 20 failures. It beggars belief that anyone would bench Abbas in favor of a part time bowler and a 20 Test discard with a 50 average in England. Abbas, who has been the best First Class bowler in domestics a couple of years running, and has done everything since his debut to suggest that he can replicate that domestic performance on the international scene. He averages 21 after 5 Tests in mostly punishing conditions for pace bowlers, and with his control and ability swing and seam is the perfect type of bowler for an early English summer. If any bowler is going to run through a side and singlehandedly win Pakistan a Test in Yasir's absence, the best bet would have to be on Abbas, who has 7 10 fers (!!) in just 70 FC games, compared to zero for Rahat, in his entire career. If Abbas plays he will be best Pakistani pacer of the series, is my prediction.

 

[Adijazz1706]

After 5 Tests Abbas has already begun to prove his worth, whereas Faheem has yet to earn any kind of faith in Tests, and Rahat should never have been selected again after 20 failures. It beggars belief that anyone would bench Abbas in favor of a part time bowler and a 20 Test discard with a 50 average in England. Abbas, who has been the best First Class bowler in domestics a couple of years running, and has done everything since his debut to suggest that he can replicate that domestic performance on the international scene. He averages 21 after 5 Tests in mostly punishing conditions for pace bowlers, and with his control and ability swing and seam is the perfect type of bowler for an early English summer. If any bowler is going to run through a side and singlehandedly win Pakistan a Test in Yasir's absence, the best bet would have to be on Abbas, who has 7 10 fers (!!) in just 70 FC games, compared to zero for Rahat, in his entire career. If Abbas plays he will be best Pakistani pacer of the series, is my prediction.

If Mickey picks Rahat ahead of Abbas, all PPers in UK led by Saj and co. will blockade the team hotel

 

[Rahul1]

It seems to me that outside Asia a Test team needs a minimum of 4 quick bowlers plus a part-time spinner in case they bowl fourth on a crumbling wicket.

And of the five bowlers selected:

One must bat at Number 7 and average 35 or more with the bat.

One must bat at Number 8 and average 22 or more with the bat.

One must bat at Number 9 and average 20 or more with the bat.

Yasir Shah's appalling tours of England, New Zealand and Australia in 2016 really summed up the problem.

Yasir Shah averaged a pathetic 40.73 in England, including innings in which he took 1-213 and 2-172.

In New Zealand he took 0-61 in a low-scoring First Test, and had to be dropped for the Second Test.

Yasir Shah was even worse in Australia: he had averaged a horrific 84.00 and his spells were:

2-129
1-45
3-207
1-167
1-124

In fact, Yasir Shah bowled 148 overs in Australia, of which just 11 were maiden overs.

Obviously Yasir Shah's performances were made worse by the gross incompetence of Misbah-ul-Haq as captain, giving him ludicrous fields to bowl to.

But the bottom line is that Yasir Shah proved that a specialist leg-spinner who can't bat is not ideally suited to Tests in England, New Zealand and Australia.

But a player like Shadab Khan could be ideal.

If you accept that the spinner is just a part-time bowler in the first three innings in those countries, perhaps it would be better to pick one who can keep an end fairly tight but average 35 or more with the bat?

If you look back to the Australia tour, Pakistan came within 39 runs of victory at Brisbane, where Yasir Shah scored 1 and 33.

And Pakistan survived until the final hour in the MCG Test, in which Yasir Shah did not score a run.

I would argue that Shadab Khan might well have won the First Test for Pakistan with the bat, and would have been quite likely to have drawn the Second Test.

Given that Pakistan can't field a fourth seamer at Number 7 who can average 35 with the bat (or at Number 6 and average 40), then the obvious alternative is to use Shadab Khan at Number 7.

I would think that the best chance of success in South Africa this December would be to field a team looking something like this:

6. Sarfraz Ahmed (wk)
7. Shadab Khan
8. Mohammad Amir
9. Hasan Ali
10. Shaheen Shah Afridi
11. Mohammad Abbas

Is it Misbah's fault that Yasir bowled so badly?

 

[ManFan]

Is it Misbah's fault that Yasir bowled so badly?

Misbah gave Yasir clear directions to bowl leg-side throughout the series.

It was pathetic and the minute he started bowling outside off, he looked more threatening.

Yasir was even made to state publicly in the media that it was his intention to bowl leg-side and continued to do so even after getting milked for 100+ runs.

And he has never bowled leg-side deliberately before or after since for continuous amounts of time.

 

[Rahul1]

Misbah gave Yasir clear directions to bowl leg-side throughout the series.

It was pathetic and the minute he started bowling outside off, he looked more threatening.

Yasir was even made to state publicly in the media that it was his intention to bowl leg-side and continued to do so even after getting milked for 100+ runs.

And he has never bowled leg-side deliberately before or after since for continuous amounts of time.

What is the proof that Misbah asked him to bowled him like that?

 

[ManFan]

What is the proof that Misbah asked him to bowled him like that?

Because it worked against Cook a year prior in the UAE.

Any leg-spinner, especially one of the top international standard who at that point had been considered along with Ashwin, the best spinner in the preceding decade, would NOT continue to bowl leg-spin for three Tests after going for a 100 runs in each Test.

I watched the Test matches and all the commentators, particularly Warne, who Yasir has had previous and continuous communication with, were lost as to why Yasir had suddenly been hell bent on bowling leg-side.

Misbah was a great captain in Asia but he was terrible in Oceania and ENG where his attrition tactics cost Pakistan seven Tests in than six months.

And this is all made the more evident by the fact that Yasir has never bowled leg-side after that tour for 3 continuous Tests unless done on a 5th day pitch on the rough.

 

[MMHS]

Is it Misbah's fault that Yasir bowled so badly?

Almost entirely - you can quantify by 99%, if you wish.

Misbah hardly played FC cricket outside Asia in his life time and he haven't led his sides much either - he is clue less on sporting wickets, I am sorry to say. He used (or tried to use) Yasir exactly same way like the docile, dead slow & low UAE tracks, where leg line can bore batsmen to submission and Yasir could take a 5for in 50 overs spell. Average scoring rate in UAE is around 2.50, hence he could bowl 50 from Yasir and 60 from others - still teams won't cross 270 and 1 by 1, time & UAE wicket will hunt under-prepared tourists.

That's Misbah moods operand - Plan Alpha without a plan Beta - otherwise PAK shouldn't have lost at least 5 Tests in UAE once the tourists had some acclimatization with the bore feast, AND remarkably, all 5 were after winning toss on such rubbish wickets; it didn't happen for the 6th time because of bad light - that's Misbah's achievement as Captain at hind side. Otherwise, you don't allow SAF winning that Cape Town Test, when your lead spinner had a 10for, and there are 2 centuries in the 1st innings of a Test on Day 1.

Coming to Yasir in UK or AUS, wickets with pace and true bounce, leg spinners don't survive on restricting tactics, they need to be on top of the game and attack .... for that they need a Captain with balls, at least marble size. This Plan Alpha went south in 2nd & 3rd Test in UK, then turned ugly in AUS. But, same Yasir almost single handed ran through WI 3 months later on wickets tailor made for Plan Alpha.

If you carefully analyze the 7 Tests in UK & AUS - PAK batted first at Lord's and Yasir had something on board to defend in both innings (Misbah should get his fair share of credit for that Lord's 100). At M'ter & B'ham Poms batted first and PAK captain went to defensive from first lunch - tried to use his premier leggi the way Pom captains would use Mark Elham or Ronnie Irani. At Oval again Poms batted first and Yasir went wicket less in 1st innings, by the time he came to bowl 2nd time, YK had given his Captain 200+ buffer, so Yasir was allowed to be expensive ........

I can write in details what was tactics for the Gabba Test on Day 1, but I guess memory is still fresh enough for everyone. After that, the bashing Yasir got was a result of complete shattering of confidence - a leggi can be successful with a polio affected hand, but not with low confidence. It ended really ugly at the hand or Warner & Khwaza - two players, not so famous for their spin play to be honest.

Yasir could have been a brilliant LO leggi as well - if Chahal can do this, Yasir should have done better with his control, accuracy and variation of pace, against modern batting greats' spin playing capacity - he didn't because his entire LO career was under 2 of the most unimaginative, timid ... almost scared Captains, who would ask their leggi to dart for 5/6 singles and be safe. Otherwise, top news-makers in LO games this days are wrist spinners - Chahal, Shadab, Kuldeep, Tahir, Rashid, Badree, Sodhi, Adil ... even Cremer, Shamshi, Zampa are troubling batsmen - no reason why Yasir shouldn't be a champion LO leggi as well.

 

[MMHS]

After 5 Tests Abbas has already begun to prove his worth, whereas Faheem has yet to earn any kind of faith in Tests, and Rahat should never have been selected again after 20 failures. It beggars belief that anyone would bench Abbas in favor of a part time bowler and a 20 Test discard with a 50 average in England. Abbas, who has been the best First Class bowler in domestics a couple of years running, and has done everything since his debut to suggest that he can replicate that domestic performance on the international scene. He averages 21 after 5 Tests in mostly punishing conditions for pace bowlers, and with his control and ability swing and seam is the perfect type of bowler for an early English summer. If any bowler is going to run through a side and singlehandedly win Pakistan a Test in Yasir's absence, the best bet would have to be on Abbas, who has 7 10 fers (!!) in just 70 FC games, compared to zero for Rahat, in his entire career. If Abbas plays he will be best Pakistani pacer of the series, is my prediction.

No love lost for Abbas from me - if he can bowl well in practice matches, why not. Rahat was a bit different issue, because in it's entire Test cricket history of 65 years, this is the first PAK side whose fast bowlers are vertically challenged even from BD & Lankan pacers, therefore you know......, I have a man crash for height for new ball pacers.

Average sometimes are like bikini - it hides things that you wish to see, just gives you a feel of what it could be .....but then, they have learned better use of silicon............ This same discussion we had almost 2 years back, when I was defending Wahab's potential over Imran Khan's (not the politician one) average in Test matches in UAE - I don't want to start that again, my friend, interest shouldn't be in bikini, rather ....

Abbas is a nice guy, I like him - if he can manage close to that average with wickets from top 7, bowling at a bit faster than Soumya Sharker, he probably has an Asif or Alderman like skills - a MUST for every UK Test.

 

[New Yorker]

No love lost for Abbas from me - if he can bowl well in practice matches, why not. Rahat was a bit different issue, because in it's entire Test cricket history of 65 years, this is the first PAK side whose fast bowlers are vertically challenged even from BD & Lankan pacers, therefore you know......, I have a man crash for height for new ball pacers.

Average sometimes are like bikini - it hides things that you wish to see, just gives you a feel of what it could be .....but then, they have learned better use of silicon............ This same discussion we had almost 2 years back, when I was defending Wahab's potential over Imran Khan's (not the politician one) average in Test matches in UAE - I don't want to start that again, my friend, interest shouldn't be in bikini, rather ....

Abbas is a nice guy, I like him - if he can manage close to that average with wickets from top 7, bowling at a bit faster than Soumya Sharker, he probably has an Asif or Alderman like skills - a MUST for every UK Test.

I think the point is that Abbas should be the automatic inclusion over Rahat - and Hasan and Amir too frankly. Amir has not been better than decent in Tests recently and Hasan has yet to prove himself in the longer format, though I have all faith in him. It's Rahat who has not done anything to warrant his reselection, barring being tall. But he has been the same height his entire career and he has not seemed able to make it count. As someone put it, he is set to break the record for most 1-fer and 2-fers by a capped Pakistani bowler. So this height business is a puzzling argument for him I'd have to say.

 

[Junaids]

No. 7 who can average 35? Lol. 2-3 batsmen from no. 1-6 averaging 35 across the series would be a feat.

.......is the whole point!!!!!!!!!!

Pakistan's Top Six batsmen will never score anything like the runs of India's Top Six, or Australia's, or South Africa's.

So the team is only competitive at Test level if it has a 5 man attack featuring 2-3 top, top bowlers plus 3 bowlers batting at 7, 8 and 9 who can reliably score 100 runs between them in EVERY innings.

Consider the upcoming tour to South Africa.

South Africa's scores in the recent home series v India were:

286 & 130
335 & 258
194 & 177

The key game is the Second Test:

South Africa 335
India 307
South Africa 258
India 151

Ultimately South Africa won it by 135 runs to take an unbeatable 2-0 lead in the series.

Pakistan will always need its pacers to do a better job than India's outside Asia.

Where India bowled South Africa out for 335, Pakistan would have to do it for 290.

But I'd expect South Africa to then reduce Pakistan to 170-5. Which means that number 6-11 have to score almost as many runs as the top order.

It works if from 170-5 you then get:

6. Sarfraz Ahmed 75
7. Shadab Khan 45
8. Mohammad Amir 35
9. Hasan Ali 25
10. Shaheen Shah 15
11. Mohammad Abbas 10

(After
1. Sami Aslam 30
2. Azhar Ali 35
3. Asad Shafiq 30
4. Babar Azam 40
5. Haris Sohail 35)

That converts 170-5 into 375 all out.

If you consider the likes of Abdul Razzaq, Wasim Akram, Azhar Mahmood and Sohail Khan, it's easier for a Pakistan bowler to score 35 than for a Pakistan batsman to score 80.

 

[Slog]

Almost half of our current top 6 doesnt average 35 and we have the legendary OP saying that spinner at #7 should average 35+

 

[Junaids]

Almost half of our current top 6 doesnt average 35 and we have the legendary OP saying that spinner at #7 should average 35+

That is WHY I'm saying the spinner needs to be chosen in non-spinning conditions according to how many runs he can score.

Not an Imad Wasim or Mohammad Hafeez who can't bowl. Just a decent spinner who can bat.

Test batsmen should be averaging 45 runs per innings. But most of Pakistan's aren't good enough.

We saw in in 6 of the 8 Tests that Yasir Shah played in England, Australia and New Zealand from July 2016 to January 2017 that he was over-bowled and ineffective.

He was bowling when a fourth seamer should have been bowling. A fourth seamer would have given Mohammad Amir and Wahab Riaz longer breaks between overs and allowed them to bowl shorter spells.

At Headingley or Centurion, imagine the following choice:

Shadab Khan batting at 7 along with a 4 man pace attack
20-5-60-1
35
20-5-60-2
30

Yasir Shah batting at 9 along with a 3 man pace attack
30-10-60-1
5
30-10-60-2
10

 

[SensiblePakFan]

Its sad when people cannot distinguish between an LOI bowler and a Test bowler.

 

[Junaids]

Its sad when people cannot distinguish between an LOI bowler and a Test bowler.

Frankly, outside Asia at most Test venues you get more out of Moeen Ali or Ish Sodhi than you do out of Yasir Shah.

Spinners barely take a wicket in England, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand.

There are exceptions - Lords or The Oval in late summer.

 

[Titan24]

If you consider the likes of Abdul Razzaq, Wasim Akram, Azhar Mahmood and Sohail Khan, it's easier for a Pakistan bowler to score 35 than for a Pakistan batsman to score 80.

Thats one hell of a line...and reciprocate my feelings. I used to say this for LOIs 3 years ago when we had Afridi at 5 down in our ODI team in the world cup 2015. That was the worst batting depth among international teams.

Having depth in batting lineups with all rounders and bowlers who can contribute a bit is what Pakistan needs to compete with the top batting lineups, good batting depth is what made us into a competitive LOI unit. Same can be done with test lineup as well, England also did it and were quite successful 2,3 years ago.

 

[MMHS]

I think the point is that Abbas should be the automatic inclusion over Rahat - and Hasan and Amir too frankly. Amir has not been better than decent in Tests recently and Hasan has yet to prove himself in the longer format, though I have all faith in him. It's Rahat who has not done anything to warrant his reselection, barring being tall. But he has been the same height his entire career and he has not seemed able to make it count. As someone put it, he is set to break the record for most 1-fer and 2-fers by a capped Pakistani bowler. So this height business is a puzzling argument for him I'd have to say.

No issues - his figures are good. I am just not confident about his success against players who have recently been battered by relentless 140K+ thunderbolts.