Is Vernon Philander going to be recognised as a great of the game? [Retires after England series]

[Madplayer]

An average of 22 in tests, phenomenal strike rate of 46, match winning performances again and again and finally a handy batting average of 25 in tests.

 

[Savak]

The James Anderson of South Africa. Only difference is Anderson has a bit more pace and is slightly more successful in the subcontinent.

 

[Madplayer]

The James Anderson of South Africa. Only difference is Anderson has a bit more pace and is slightly more successful in the subcontinent.

He performed well in UAE.

 

[hk031992]

if he gets 300 wickets under average of 25, then yes, he will go down as an ATG bowler. Will he go down as a first rate atg like Marshall, Imran, Akram, McGrath, Steyn, Donald etc? No, but he will be close.

I sort of see him as a slower Shaun Pollock. Pollock was a brilliant bowler and only slightly behind McGrath, Akram, Waqar, Amby, Donald etc. Philander is an excellent bowler and IMO should go down as an ATG.

However, because Philander is unlikely to pick 4 wickets per match on super flat wickets, its hard to see him as a first tier ATG. He can still bowl well on flat wickets and hold down one end by economical bowling.

 

[Arham_PakFan]

He is a good bowler but to be recognised as an ATG,he needs to replicate these performances abroad.But uptil now he has done decently abroad as well.

 

[CricFan2012]

Yes if he gets 300 wickets, any bowler who retires with sub 25 average in this era of batting is easily up there with the greats of the past who had more advantages, arguably even better.

 

[Mamoon]

He is a terrific bowler in helpful conditions, but a big measure of greatness is your legacy as well, and this is where Philander has not been able to make any impact whatsoever.

He has been overshadowed by Steyn throughout his career and now lately Rabada. He has also failed to become a household name like his contemporaries such as Anderson, Starc, Johnson, Boult etc. He is someone who will be forgotten quickly after his retirement, and perhaps only remembered fondly by Test cricket purists and South African fans.

 

[New Yorker]

An average of 22 in tests, phenomenal strike rate of 46, match winning performances again and again and finally a handy batting average of 25 in tests.

the numbers are staggering; to be economical is one thing, but his strike rate is better than mcgrath's, not much behind waqar younis. the most underrated bowler in the world today.

 

[Ab Fan]

He is a better test bowler than anyone in the world currently except Rabada and Hazlewood. It is also true that he has remained in the shadow of Steyn in the past and Rabada in last 2 years.

 

[Hasan123]

Very good bowler but not an ATG.

 

[ego-gambit]

Ricky Ponting on Philander-
"He is probably the hardest I faced in world cricket with those type of conditions because you don't get any visual clues with the swinging ball," "Most other guys when there's movement, the ball actually swings in the air first and you have some sort of idea of which way the ball is going to go.

"He doesn't swing the ball at all. It comes out of his hand dead straight and he doesn't know which way it's going to go off the pitch either. "So you sort of end up trying to find and feel ... for which way the ball is going to go. "We saw a couple of replays today; the release was exactly the same on two balls in a row, they landed in almost exactly the same spot, one seamed away and the other one seamed in. "He's just a class act when the ball is seaming."

 

[Abdullah]

How did he do in Aus last year?
I thought he done ok

 

[Protea Fan]

How did he do in Aus last year?
I thought he done ok

Did very well....played pivotal role in both test SA won

 

[Abdullah]

Did very well....played pivotal role in both test SA won

Yeah I thought so. Good on him

 

[soso_killer]

The James Anderson of South Africa. Only difference is Anderson has a bit more pace and is slightly more successful in the subcontinent.

Philander deserves more respect than that.
Anderson averages 35 away from home, Philander 25.
Even in so called "helpful" conditions Jimmy has been average.
In NZ 35
SA 40
AUS 35
He has even out bowled Anderson in his own backyard.

Vern with all his flaws is far superior to Anderson.

 

[soso_killer]

if he gets 300 wickets under average of 25, then yes, he will go down as an ATG bowler. Will he go down as a first rate atg like Marshall, Imran, Akram, McGrath, Steyn, Donald etc? No, but he will be close.

I sort of see him as a slower Shaun Pollock. Pollock was a brilliant bowler and only slightly behind McGrath, Akram, Waqar, Amby, Donald etc. Philander is an excellent bowler and IMO should go down as an ATG.

However, because Philander is unlikely to pick 4 wickets per match on super flat wickets, its hard to see him as a first tier ATG. He can still bowl well on flat wickets and hold down one end by economical bowling.

No, he won't be among the bull terriers.
He doesn't have the height of a Pollock/McGrath to be effective on roads. But what he will do is plug an end.

To be fair not even the likes of McGrath were taking 5-fors in Asia. He along Pollock were miserly bowlers. They'd pick 2/3 for 30 runs or so while the likes of Steyn, Gillespie, Ntini and Warne did all the damage. Only Ambrose would run through line ups on any surface.

So Philander isn't alone.

 

[EliteCynical]

An average of 22 in tests, phenomenal strike rate of 46, match winning performances again and again and finally a handy batting average of 25 in tests.

Only in PP.

The guy averages 32 in Asia with a SR of 80. He is basically the anti-Ashwin, but Ashwin gets so much hate over here.

I am not sure if you ever dissed Ashwin, please do not take this personally.

How are his figures any different from Ashwin?

 

[soso_killer]

He is a better test bowler than anyone in the world currently except Rabada and Hazlewood. It is also true that he has remained in the shadow of Steyn in the past and Rabada in last 2 years.

He's better than both. Won us the match when the pitch had settled. He still got the ball to talk when a faster Rabada and Morkel couldn't do a thing.
He'll be remembered as the final jigsaw in SA's puzzle. Without him South Africa would never have ascended to no. 1.

You can check country by country comparison, not a single bowler bar Steyn has a better away record. He is massively underrated.

 

[soso_killer]

How did he do in Aus last year?
I thought he done ok

Man of the series. Absolutely killed it.

 

[soso_killer]

Only in PP.

The guy averages 32 in Asia with a SR of 80. He is basically the anti-Ashwin, but Ashwin gets so much hate over here.

I am not sure if you ever dissed Ashwin, please do not take this personally.

How are his figures any different from Ashwin?

What does Ashwin average outside Asia?
If it's 32 then that's not bad.
I think Philander has bowled well in India and the UAE. His only blemish has been in Lanka.

 

[Outswinger]

Because everybody LOVES the genuine fire-breathing quick and ignores the Philanders and Pollocks of this world. What is Asif was in the same team as Waqar and Wasim?? Would have been the same story.

 

[Abdullah719]

What does Ashwin average outside Asia?
If it's 32 then that's not bad.
I think Philander has bowled well in India and the UAE. His only blemish has been in Lanka.

Ashwin's bowling average outside Asia is 41.

It becomes 53 if you exclude West Indies.

-------------

Philander's sample size in Asia is pretty small though.

Edit: Actually, the same goes for both of them. Small sample sizes. Though Philander in his limited outings in Asia has probably impressed more than Ashwin in alien conditions.

 

[EliteCynical]

What does Ashwin average outside Asia?
If it's 32 then that's not bad.
I think Philander has bowled well in India and the UAE. His only blemish has been in Lanka.

He averages 23 in WI, 33 in England, has only played 2 games in SA
His only blemish has been Australia which anyways has been a graveyard for visiting off spinners where the averages are
Swann- 52
Ashwin - 54
Harbhajan 65
Ajmal -also averages very high but only one game, so let us ignore it.
Moeen Ali - 115

Rest my case!

 

[Shutdown Corner]

His average speaks for itself. As does Steyn's.

If the sample size is large enough, the average is valid. He's just as good as Pollock, based on the average. Of course Pollock would be rated ahead since he has 400 wickets.

 

[Madplayer]

Only in PP.

The guy averages 32 in Asia with a SR of 80. He is basically the anti-Ashwin, but Ashwin gets so much hate over here.

I am not sure if you ever dissed Ashwin, please do not take this personally.

How are his figures any different from Ashwin?

I have just asked a question, not passed a judgement

 

[EliteCynical]

I have just asked a question, not passed a judgement

Fair point. I should have probably responded when a few people would have come in passing the judgement My bad.

 

[soso_killer]

He averages 23 in WI, 33 in England, has only played 2 games in SA
His only blemish has been Australia which anyways has been a graveyard for visiting off spinners where the averages are
Swann- 52
Ashwin - 54
Harbhajan 65
Ajmal -also averages very high but only one game, so let us ignore it.
Moeen Ali - 115

Rest my case!

I don't believe you've addressed my question, you inferred that an average of 32 in Asia is mediocre.
Fair enough.
Then you went along and mentioned Ashwin.
The question still stands, what does he average outside Asia?

 

[soso_killer]

Ashwin's bowling average outside Asia is 41.

It becomes 53 if you exclude West Indies.

-------------

Philander's sample size in Asia is pretty small though.

Edit: Actually, the same goes for both of them. Small sample sizes. Though Philander in his limited outings in Asia has probably impressed more than Ashwin in alien conditions.

Thanks, funny how the OP neglected to mention that. I'm not sure what's the agenda.

 

[EliteCynical]

I don't believe you've addressed my question, you inferred that an average of 32 in Asia is mediocre.
Fair enough.
Then you went along and mentioned Ashwin.
The question still stands, what does he average outside Asia?

When did I ever mention that? You have misunderstood me. My question is if Philander is considered an ATG with his asia record, then why can't Ashwin also be considered in the same bracket based on his outside-asia record? Ashwin gets too much hate on this forum.

 

[Bewal Express]

I dont genuinely know what to make of him. Is he great, is he average or will his luck break. First thing to say is that he bowls pretty straight at roughly 80mph and moves the ball but what does make him different is that on grassier wickets his balls pick up pace after pitching and hence the reason there are so many mistakes against him.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Philander is a highly skilled bowler and I enjoy watching him operate. The title "ATG" is thrown around too loosely these days. Often by fans blinded by bias and aesthetics but tend to ignore substance.

But one does not have to be a top echelon bowler to be remembered as a great. There are many remembered as greats for their skill or qualities that made them stand out. They also often managed to captivate the audience by performing on the biggest stage. This is where Philander has failed to leave an imprint. His performance against India should help towards that aspect but not as much as the next series will, against their rivals. With Australia on a high, next series is a great opportunity.

His test record overall is great but there is no denying that he needs a bit of assistance to take wickets. However, his precision and skill in those conditions is unmatched by anyone today.

Fantastic bowler. South African Great but is lacking the tools to enter the highest echelon. He's a great bowler but not a complete one. If he manages to take tracks out of the equation despite the limitations, there wouldn't be any discussion left.

 

[New Yorker]

Philander is a highly skilled bowler and I enjoy watching him operate. The title "ATG" is thrown around too loosely these days. Often by fans blinded by bias and aesthetics but tend to ignore substance.

But one does not have to be a top echelon bowler to be remembered as a great. There are many remembered as greats for their skill or qualities that made them stand out. They also often managed to captivate the audience by performing on the biggest stage. This is where Philander has failed to leave an imprint. His performance against India should help towards that aspect but not as much as the next series will, against their rivals. With Australia on a high, next series is a great opportunity.

His test record overall is great but there is no denying that he needs a bit of assistance to take wickets. However, his precision and skill in those conditions is unmatched by anyone today.

Fantastic bowler. South African Great but is lacking the tools to enter the highest echelon. He's a great bowler but not a complete one. If he manages to take tracks out of the equation despite the limitations, there wouldn't be any discussion left.

Many an ATG pacer has from time to time toiled fruitlessly on Asian pitches, including Wasim and Waqar; Philander has a great record in India and the UAE, did very well in Australia which is a bowler's graveyard these days; his only blemish is Lanka, where he only played two Tests. Fair to say that comparatively speaking he seems to be able to take the tracks out of the equation relatively more than other leading pacers of his generation, ie Anderson. Add to that the fact that in his breakthrough series he wrecked Aus, is the fastest pacer ever to 50 wickets, and you have a bowler who has already distinguished himself.

 

[soso_killer]

When did I ever mention that? You have misunderstood me. My question is if Philander is considered an ATG with his asia record, then why can't Ashwin also be considered in the same bracket based on his outside-asia record? Ashwin gets too much hate on this forum.

What's wrong with his record in, Asia?

 

[zain7077]

Philander is a highly skilled bowler and I enjoy watching him operate. The title "ATG" is thrown around too loosely these days. Often by fans blinded by bias and aesthetics but tend to ignore substance.

But one does not have to be a top echelon bowler to be remembered as a great. There are many remembered as greats for their skill or qualities that made them stand out. They also often managed to captivate the audience by performing on the biggest stage. This is where Philander has failed to leave an imprint. His performance against India should help towards that aspect but not as much as the next series will, against their rivals. With Australia on a high, next series is a great opportunity.

His test record overall is great but there is no denying that he needs a bit of assistance to take wickets. However, his precision and skill in those conditions is unmatched by anyone today.

Fantastic bowler. South African Great but is lacking the tools to enter the highest echelon. He's a great bowler but not a complete one. If he manages to take tracks out of the equation despite the limitations, there wouldn't be any discussion left.

Philander or Asif, who do you think has or had the greater skill set?

 

[soso_killer]

Philander is a highly skilled bowler and I enjoy watching him operate. The title "ATG" is thrown around too loosely these days. Often by fans blinded by bias and aesthetics but tend to ignore substance.

But one does not have to be a top echelon bowler to be remembered as a great. There are many remembered as greats for their skill or qualities that made them stand out. They also often managed to captivate the audience by performing on the biggest stage. This is where Philander has failed to leave an imprint. His performance against India should help towards that aspect but not as much as the next series will, against their rivals. With Australia on a high, next series is a great opportunity.

His test record overall is great but there is no denying that he needs a bit of assistance to take wickets. However, his precision and skill in those conditions is unmatched by anyone today.

Fantastic bowler. South African Great but is lacking the tools to enter the highest echelon. He's a great bowler but not a complete one. If he manages to take tracks out of the equation despite the limitations, there wouldn't be any discussion left.

Philander was man of the series in Australia's backyard.
He won South Africa the number one ranking when it was on the line against England who looked like they were running away with it.

If a serial match winner when everything is on the line doesn't "captivate" the audience. Humiliating the greatest nation to have played the game in their backyard. Perhaps the said audience is better off switching to T20, as they'd seem clueless to me. I think the IPL starts in March, big Vern ain't part of that unfortunately, he's not catered for that particular audience.
But good luck to IPL fans, I'm sure Gayle will keep them entertained with a blistering hundred of 20 balls. Now that's captivating cricket.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Philander was man of the series in Australia's backyard.
He won South Africa the number one ranking when it was on the line against England who looked like they were running away with it.

If a serial match winner when everything is on the line doesn't "captivate" the audience. Humiliating the greatest nation to have played the game in their backyard. Perhaps the said audience is better off switching to T20, as they'd seem clueless to me. I think the IPL starts in March, big Vern ain't part of that unfortunately, he's not catered for that particular audience.
But good luck to IPL fans, I'm sure Gayle will keep them entertained with a blistering hundred of 20 balls. Now that's captivating cricket.

I watched that whole series. Philander only came into play when the ball started moving against very inexperienced/ordinary Australian lineup. He did not humiliate anyone. Rabada was by far the best bowler in game one. Philander was excellent at Hobart, as one would expect. Abbott was the best in the third game.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Already a great 130k legend.

 

[Chrish]

Gotta post this

 

[Chrish]

Anyways SA bowlers were magnificent in that series, as expected of them but to me the player of the series was QDK. He scored the series deciding runs IMO.

 

[soso_killer]

I watched that whole series. Philander only came into play when the ball started moving against very inexperienced/ordinary Australian lineup. He did not humiliate anyone. Rabada was by far the best bowler in game one. Philander was excellent at Hobart, as one would expect. Abbott was the best in the third game.

Man of the series dude, nothing stopped other bowlers from exploiting the very same conditions.
The "ordinary" Australian lineup had not lost a home match in 4 years (undefeated in 20+ home games) IIRC. Funny how teams become ordinary when he's in town, and how the pitch becomes lively.


By the way I watched that series myself, since South Africa is my country and all. And you think Rabada was the best bowler in match 1? That's laughable.
Australia were rampaging, Warner batting like a demon. Australia were 150/0 (2nd innings of the match) Steyn and Rabada were going at 4 to the over. Philander was going at 2.5, Maharaj over 3. Picked up 4 wickets and gave them nothing.
Rabada stepped up in the second innings with SA having amassed 400+. Philander was the best and most consistent bowler in both innings.
You don't think getting rolled for 80 in your den is humiliating (and thus the series)? Anyone who watched that series knows Vern bowled decisive spells.

It's funny how narratives don't coincide with facts.
"Ordinary Australia ", who looked invincible before SA arrived. Had not lost a match since SA last toured.
"Vern needs to step up and captivate.. ", yet his record suggests otherwise.
"He didn't humiliate anyone", 80/10 says hello.
" Hazelwood is better", yet Philander has virtually out bowled him in every country.
What next? "Vern is not up to the standards of Test cricket?" lol.

If we're going to come up with arguments, let's have facts to back them up. Not narratives to suit an agenda, that doesn't make for a constructive dialogue.

 

[Savak]

Not everyone can be Philander.

 

[soso_killer]

Gotta post this

Lol, some don't think that was humiliating

 

[Chrish]

His FC record is phenomenal. Right around his debut here are the stats for couple of seasons for Cape Cobras that I stole from else where:

"11-12: 16 wickets at 16.84
10-11: 35 wickets at 16.11
09-10: 45 wickets at 14.73"

We can moan about helpful conditions but even considering that these are miraculous stats.

 

[soso_killer]

His FC record is phenomenal. Right around his debut here are the stats for couple of seasons for Cape Cobras that I stole from else where:

"11-12: 16 wickets at 16.84
10-11: 35 wickets at 16.11
09-10: 45 wickets at 14.73"

We can moan about helpful conditions but even considering that these are miraculous stats.

Yeah, I was upset when he wasn't introduced for the India series in 2011 as the selectors went for Tsotsobe instead.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Man of the series dude, nothing stopped other bowlers from exploiting the very same conditions.
The "ordinary" Australian lineup had not lost a home match in 4 years (undefeated in 20+ home games) IIRC. Funny how teams become ordinary when he's in town, and how the pitch becomes lively.


By the way I watched that series myself, since South Africa is my country and all. And you think Rabada was the best bowler in match 1? That's laughable.
Australia were rampaging, Warner batting like a demon. Australia were 150/0 (2nd innings of the match) Steyn and Rabada were going at 4 to the over. Philander was going at 2.5, Maharaj over 3. Picked up 4 wickets and gave them nothing.
Rabada stepped up in the second innings with SA having amassed 400+. Philander was the best and most consistent bowler in both innings.
You don't think getting rolled for 80 in your den is humiliating (and thus the series)? Anyone who watched that series knows Vern bowled decisive spells.

It's funny how narratives don't coincide with facts.
"Vern needs to step up and captivate.. ", yet his record suggests otherwise.
"He didn't humiliate anyone", 80/10 says hello.
" Hazelwood is better", yet Philander has virtually out bowled him in every country.
What next? "Vern is not up to the standards of Test cricket?" lol.

If we're going to come up with arguments, let's have facts to back them up. Not narratives to suit an agenda, that doesn't make for a constructive dialogue.

Yeah, as if teams don't change over time.

Philander picked up two tailenders and the Marsh bros. It was Steyn(Warner), Maharaj(Smith) and Rabada(Khawaja, Voges) who dented Australia by taking out their heaviest scorers.

Second innings, Rabada bowls 8 over spells in succession and runs through Australia with a three man attack while Philander was toothless. Totally laughable.

Vern was exceptional in the second match on a helpful track and I mentioned that but he did not roll over anyone singlehandedly the way you're making it out to be. Abbott ended up with more wickets in the 2nd match. Philander was wicketless in the 2nd innings but I still rated his performance higher because it came in 1st and decided the game.

South Africa as a team humiliated Australia at Hobart, not Vernon alone. He bowled a decisive spell in the 1st innings but was backed up by his teammates superbly. If he hadn't taken those wickets, it was only a matter of time before the others did.

Hazlewood being better is a separate discussion. Not sure why the mention here.

I do not have an agenda. I appreciate Vernon's skill and rate him as a great test bowler but his limitations in certain conditions are obvious to me. If he manages to overcome these conditions in the future, there will be no further discussion.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Vern is a special bowler as Kirsten had been the one to pluck him from the domestic circuit when their selectors thought he was just a medium pacer.
He will probably go down as a South African great but being 32 already don't think will it to the ATG category.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Philander is a very good bowler. But a great? I don't think so.

In SA, you'd fear him to run through your batting lineup on more occasions than not.

I don't think the case is same away. He just doesn't have the pace to trouble batsman with reverse swing and pace if the conventional swing isn't available.

I mean Steyn troubled the ATG Indian lineup in India. Can I see Philander doing that? No.

He's on his way to become a SA great though.

 

[soso_killer]

Yeah, as if teams don't change over time.

Philander picked up two tailenders and the Marsh bros. It was Steyn(Warner), Maharaj(Smith) and Rabada(Khawaja, Voges) who dented Australia by taking out their heaviest scorers.

Second innings, Rabada bowls 8 over spells in succession and runs through Australia with a three man attack while Philander was toothless. Totally laughable.

Vern was exceptional in the second match on a helpful track and I mentioned that but he did not roll over anyone singlehandedly the way you're making it out to be. Abbott ended up with more wickets in the 2nd match. Philander was wicketless in the 2nd innings but I still rated his performance higher because it came in 1st and decided the game.

South Africa as a team humiliated Australia at Hobart, not Vernon alone. He bowled a decisive spell in the 1st innings but was backed up by his teammates superbly. If he hadn't taken those wickets, it was only a matter of time before the others did.

Hazlewood being better is a separate discussion. Not sure why the mention here.

I do not have an agenda. I appreciate Vernon's skill and rate him as a great test bowler but his limitations in certain conditions are obvious to me. If he manages to overcome these conditions in the future, there will be no further discussion.

Yeah sure It's not as if Marsh was involved in a 150+ stand on 60+ or anything. Smith who was out on zero was the highest scorer.
A "toothless" Philander whom they couldn't buy a run against.

Philander would have had more wickets in the second match if Smith didn't try to break his shoulders. He missed half of the first session after. Came back after lunch and took the remaining two wickets for his 5-for. Australia wouldn't have made 80 had big Vern remained on the field.
In the second innings he was going at under 2 to the over bowling with discomfort. With Steyn gone Australia wanted to injure our entire first choice bowling, lol. That's how petrified the were.

And whose problem is it if a team changes overtime? Why didn't the other visiting teams stop Australia for going 4 years undefeated at home?
And didn't South Africa go to Australia with a weaker squad as well? Smith, Kallis retired and AB taking a sabbatical. Steyn and Morkel also injured. Why did you not mention that?
In your opening post you inferred that Venorn needed to step up. When I gave you numerous example, you shift goalposts about a weak team and what not. A "weak" team that had created a fortress at home, just like the English in 2012 when the #1 rank was on the line. Were they a weak team too?

Again you try and take credit away from Philander's performance in Hobart. Why didn't our bowlers take more wickets than Philander after he missed half of the first session?

Your argument is revolving and shifting posts. Apart from Steyn which bowler doesn't have limitations?
Who do you consider the best bowler apart from Steyn? Perhaps this debate will take better shape once we've analysed your ideal bowler.

(I only mentioned Hazelwood coz there's a false sense around these shores that he is better than Philander with no evidence whatsoever to back that up).

 

[soso_killer]

Philander is a very good bowler. But a great? I don't think so.

In SA, you'd fear him to run through your batting lineup on more occasions than not.

I don't think the case is same away. He just doesn't have the pace to trouble batsman with reverse swing and pace if the conventional swing isn't available.

I mean Steyn troubled the ATG Indian lineup in India. Can I see Philander doing that? No.

He's on his way to become a SA great though.

Did McGrath run through the ATG Indian unit in their background? No.
Of all the line and length bowlers only Ambrose was capable of removing the surface from the equation. Let's not use different yardsticks to judge players.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Did McGrath run through the ATG Indian unit in their background? No.
Of all the line and length bowlers only Ambrose was capable of removing the surface from the equation. Let's not use different yardsticks to judge players.

Mcgrath has an average of 21 in India though and helped Australia cross the final frontier in 2004.

So look, Philander not being an ATG doesn't make him a bad bowler.

He's one of the top bowlers in the world currently but you can't put him at the level of Steyn, Donald or other greats like Wasim, Mcgrath, Marshall etc.

 

[dani2k]

If you had said that his record in Australia is great and left at that, I would have had my doubts - It is like talking about Ashwin's record in Sri lanka - pretty similar conditions as one's home.

However what makes Vern's stats very impressive is his stat in Asia especially considering his pace. So yes he is well and truly a great in the making (if not one already). Present day McGrath perhaps?

 

[soso_killer]

Mcgrath has an average of 21 in India though and helped Australia cross the final frontier in 2004.

So look, Philander not being an ATG doesn't make him a bad bowler.

He's one of the top bowlers in the world currently but you can't put him at the level of Steyn, Donald or other greats like Wasim, Mcgrath, Marshall etc.

You made a point about running through lineups. That's something McGrath didn't do, that was my point.
Gillespie was the major source of success for Australia.
McGrath would never win a match on his own there, he has one 5-for in Asia I put him a tier below Marshall and Steyn who can run through sides anywhere. In fact I rate Ambrose above McGrath too.

If Philander can take 2/45 and 3/55 quietly like Pollock and McGrath in those conditions, then he'd be a great bowler. But he doesn't have the height those two had. He is unlikely to average in the low 20's there.

 

[soso_killer]

If you had said that his record in Australia is great and left at that, I would have had my doubts - It is like talking about Ashwin's record in Sri lanka - pretty similar conditions as one's home.

However what makes Vern's stats very impressive is his stat in Asia especially considering his pace. So yes he is well and truly a great in the making (if not one already). Present day McGrath perhaps?

The one thing that goes against Ashwin is that he doesn't play strong sides for those conditions.
If he had a similar record against Misbha's team and win in the UAE his record wouldn't be under too much scrutiny.

Even if we argue Australia, Eng and NZ are similar conditions to SA. Those sides are so strong at home especially Australia and England. They are stable nations and well run administratively, and that translates on the pitch as well.

Asian sides bar India are in disarray, from infrastructure to first class structures. Look at Sri Lanka will they ever be strong as they were around 04-10? What about Pakistan? They just lost to a nothing Lanka side.

Currently India would wipe the floor home and away against Asian sides. The same can't be said for Western nations against each other.

Cricket needs Asian sides to be strong from generation to generation. And they have to play against each other regularly. India has played more games at home against Australia, SA and Eng individually than they have against fellow Asian sides over the last 20 years. That's not right. That region needs to stabilise and sort it's politics out.

 

[Slog]

The James Anderson of South Africa. Only difference is Anderson has a bit more pace and is slightly more successful in the subcontinent.

Lol not discounting Anderson is superior but so much ignorance in this throwaway comment

He sweeps the floor with Anderson as far as home bullying is concerned if thats your metric.

Anderson is ahead of him due to wickets tally but if Philander reaches 300 mark someday he can enter conversation regardless of his lop sided record.

 

[Slog]

If you had said that his record in Australia is great and left at that, I would have had my doubts - It is like talking about Ashwin's record in Sri lanka - pretty similar conditions as one's home.

However what makes Vern's stats very impressive is his stat in Asia especially considering his pace. So yes he is well and truly a great in the making (if not one already). Present day McGrath perhaps?

How do you guys reconcile such glaring contradictions.

Claim 1: Aussie tracks are super flat which is why the batsmen have much superior record in last five years.
Claim 2: Aussie conditions are similar to Saffer conditions which is why Philander's record there isnt that impressive.

Both claims are by same set of folks )

 

[Varun]

Even if we argue Australia, Eng and NZ are similar conditions to SA. Those sides are so strong at home especially Australia and England. They are stable nations and well run administratively, and that translates on the pitch as well.

Except against the West Indies. And South Africa. And Lanka. And Pakistan.

 

[soso_killer]

Except against the West Indies. And South Africa. And Lanka. And Pakistan.

England can be a bit of a yo-yo side, absolute highs are followed by extreme moments of mediocrity.
The truth of the matter is they've won in SA, India and Australia over the last 8 years. Yeah sure those were declining sides, but they still needed to be beat. A nation has to be stable to make use of those opportunities. They are more stable than Pakistan and Sri Lanka, which means they'll be competitive from generation to generation. Who knows when will Sri Lanka produce a competitive side? Batting doesn't exist, their best bowler is pushing 50.

So yeah winning in England is still a very good achievement, irrespective of conditions one comes from. Australia haven't won there since 2001. SA haven't beat Australia at home since readmission. Australia haven't won at home against SA in 12 years. All these three sides have transitioned at various stages, but they keep finding ways of making life difficult for each other.
I rate South Africa's win in England 2012 higher than the win in Sri Lanka early 2015. This is in spite of SA having similar(ish) conditions to England.
And in reverse I would have rated an Indian win in the UAE against Misbah's team ahead of winning in NZ. They are the weakest of the western nations. Pakistan were formidable there it was a fortress. Would have been an interesting contest which we were denied by needles politicking.

Asian sides have to find a way to play each other, especially when they are strong.

 

[The intelligent Supporter]

Gotta post this

Brilliant

Also Smith 48 out of team total of 95...

 

[dauntless]

Brilliant bowler and very underrated one he doesn't get the recognition he deserve.He is one of the best in the world and has been pretty consistent.

 

[giri26]

He is a brilliant bowler and some one who squashes the myth about fast bowlers need to bowl at speeds in upwards of 140 to be successful. He operates at 125-130 KM but still is effective. He will be regarded as a great once he finishes.

 

[Rana]

He is a great but I think he needs to cut down on some weight around the stomach for him to get a few more years out of what he is heading towards. He can be much better if he becomes leaner

 

[soso_killer]

He is a great but I think he needs to cut down on some weight around the stomach for him to get a few more years out of what he is heading towards. He can be much better if he becomes leaner

Agree 100%, he needs to take fitness seriously.
But I think he's done well to shed a few kilos. He looked disgraceful against NZ.

 

[Slog]

He is a great but I think he needs to cut down on some weight around the stomach for him to get a few more years out of what he is heading towards. He can be much better if he becomes leaner

some people have that body shape

obv i dont know his level of fitness but he wont ever look like a steyn

 

[CricketCartoons]

Excellent bowler and bowls like the previous VP.. Venkatesh Prasad, who was unplayable in south africa.

 

[Moh@n]

Another home track bully. What has he done outside South Africa to be identified as an ATG?

 

[jnaveen1980]

He has a nice repeatable action. He can be quiet lethal in helpful conditions. He is a bit like Mohammad Asif. India has their task out. Fiery Rabada, Skillful Vernon, Intimidating Morkel.

 

[James]

Still don’t get how he continues to be so underrated. His record on paper is phenomenal and aside from that I have seen him put in metronomic, exacting and monstrous performances time and time again. He is also incredibly useful with the bat and tends to share partnerships at important junctures in the match. Great cricketer - perhaps not the ATG status at the moment and for some he will lack the “X-Factor” of a Steyn for example but, sorry, he is an absolutely wonderful player and would be a strong asset to any side in any set of conditions.

 

[Madplayer]

He is a classic case of not looking good on the field and i am not talking about his looks in particular but overall aura. People simply ignore him.

 

[soso_killer]

Another home track bully. What has he done outside South Africa to be identified as an ATG?

Humiliated an Australian side that hadn't lost at home in 4 years. They couldn't cope with him, as a result Smith deliberately tried it injure him so he could pad his stats
Not to mention trouncing the greatest English side in their backyard. Yep, he's done "nothing" away.
Wake me up the next time any team wins a series in Australia, got a feeling it'll be a while.

 

[soso_killer]

Brilliant

Also Smith 48 out of team total of 95...

He injured Vern, as a result had to miss half the session. Wouldn't have gotten that far.

 

[Ab Fan]

It is pretty absurd to call him HTB because he has already performed in various countries.

However, he hasnt done much in Asia which goes against him. Only 7 wickets in Asia is not what we expect from an ATG bowler. He did well in the series in Australia but there was swing and assistance offered for pace bowlers earlier on.

There is also the thing that the world outside SA sees Steyn as one of the greatest test bowler and his legacy is expected to be carried by Rabada. Meanwhile, Philander could never really attain limelight and peer reputation in the cricketing world by fans and experts.

He is definitely world class but can't become great of the game because of this reason. He doesn't have the consistent run of 5-6 years where he was among the most talked cricketers in the world.

The cricketing world won't rate him along the lines of Steyn, Amla and ABD and among young ones, Qdk and Rabada will take all the limelight afterwards.

 

[soso_killer]

It is pretty absurd to call him HTB because he has already performed in various countries.

However, he hasnt done much in Asia which goes against him. Only 7 wickets in Asia is not what we expect from an ATG bowler. He did well in the series in Australia but there was swing and assistance offered for pace bowlers earlier on.

There is also the thing that the world outside SA sees Steyn as one of the greatest test bowler and his legacy is expected to be carried by Rabada. Meanwhile, Philander could never really attain limelight and peer reputation in the cricketing world by fans and experts.

He is definitely world class but can't become great of the game because of this reason. He doesn't have the consistent run of 5-6 years where he was among the most talked cricketers in the world.

The cricketing world won't rate him along the lines of Steyn, Amla and ABD and among young ones, Qdk and Rabada will take all the limelight afterwards.

He's had far more impact on SA cricket than AB who chickened out when the going got tough. So if the "cricketing" world rate AB ahead of him, then I'm sorry, they're clueless. AB always had it easy, he was protected by Smith, Amla and Kallis. We've had other blokes who played a hand (perhaps inconsistent) like McKenzie and Alvaro. AB has never had to bat in a crisis (33 of 244 balls doesn't count).

His innings of 65 at 12/3 is his best impact knock to date and we're talking about a guy with over 100 Tests. He's got a lot of making up to do to be amongst the greats. He'll probably have to carry on for another two years after the world cup.

The issue with AB is not about run making. He can score runs anywhere against anyone. He has cheerleaders who keep on reminding us how he stood up against Johnson and what not. In my view that's irrelevant. That was not an impact knock. Impact knocks are what I'm looking for in him for the next two years or so. Try to think of Amla fighting alone against a rampaging Harbhajan. He took SA within 10 deliveries of drawing the game thus the series in India. Or Kallis scoring back to back hundreds, one of them with a side strain when his team was in a crisis.
For all AB's exploits against Johnson, South Africa was still blown away. He should have kicked on and got a 150+, instead of a teasing 90. His teasing innings in Cape Town could have cost us the game, but I'll give him credit this once.

Philander in just five years has taken South African cricket to greater heights. AB had a quiet series against England when the number ranking was on the line. Philander stood up.

 

[Ab Fan]

He's had far more impact on SA cricket than AB who chickened out when the going got tough. So if the "cricketing" world rate AB ahead of him, then I'm sorry, they're clueless. AB always had it easy, he was protected by Smith, Amla and Kallis. We've had other blokes who played a hand (perhaps inconsistent) like McKenzie and Alvaro. AB has never had to bat in a crisis (33 of 244 balls doesn't count).

His innings of 65 at 12/3 is his best impact knock to date and we're talking about a guy with over 100 Tests. He's got a lot of making up to do to be amongst the greats. He'll probably have to carry on for another two years after the world cup.

The issue with AB is not about run making. He can score runs anywhere against anyone. He has cheerleaders who keep on reminding us how he stood up against Johnson and what not. In my view that's irrelevant. That was not an impact knock. Impact knocks are what I'm looking for in him for the next two years or so. Try to think of Amla fighting alone against a rampaging Harbhajan. He took SA within 10 deliveries of drawing the game thus the series in India. Or Kallis scoring back to back hundreds, one of them with a side strain when his team was in a crisis.
For all AB's exploits against Johnson, South Africa was still blown away. He should have kicked on and got a 150+, instead of a teasing 90. His teasing innings in Cape Town could have cost us the game, but I'll give him credit this once.

Philander in just five years has taken South African cricket to greater heights. AB had a quiet series against England when the number ranking was on the line. Philander stood up.

When we talk about the greatest batters in last 12 years then names like ABd, Amla, KP, Cook and Clarke comes.

In a same way when we talk about the greatest bowlers in the world in last 11 years, the name that stood up over everyone is Dale Steyn. If anyone is followed by him then it is James Anderson. The guy has skills, mental toughness , fitness and longevity. Then you have the likes of Johnson, Broad and then maybe Philander comes into the talk. It is quite clear why he isn't rated among the greatest bowler of his era.

<B>He doesn't have longevity, consistent run for 60-70 tests and is limited only to helpful conditions. A total of 7 wickets outside Asia don't really compare with two double hundreds scored along with dozens of 50+ scores in tough batting conditions.</B>

Now this thread is about Philander. So let's restrict ourselfs to that only. There is no point bringing AB here.

You can bring all your subjective views and put it the way you like but in the cricketing world outside SA, Philander doesn't really come along the lines of those three South Africans.

As for AB best knock, it was Perth 2008 which was what was the turning point for SA's performance in AUS considering the kind of beating they used to get in previous 12 years back home or even away. So let us not go there. You can have your own opinions but here I am talking of what a general consensus is .

 

[Ab Fan]

When we talk about the greatest batters in last 12 years then names like ABd, Amla, KP, Cook and Clarke comes.

In a same way when we talk about the greatest bowlers in the world in last 11 years, the name that stood up over everyone is Dale Steyn. If anyone is followed by him then it is James Anderson. The guy has skills, mental toughness , fitness and longevity. Then you have the likes of Johnson, Broad and then maybe Philander comes into the talk. It is quite clear why he isn't rated among the greatest bowler of his era.

<B>He doesn't have longevity, consistent run for 60-70 tests and is limited only to helpful conditions. A total of 7 wickets outside Asia don't really compare with two double hundreds scored along with dozens of 50+ scores in tough batting conditions.</B>

Now this thread is about Philander. So let's restrict ourselfs to that only. There is no point bringing AB here.

You can bring all your subjective views and put it the way you like but in the cricketing world outside SA, Philander doesn't really come along the lines of those three South Africans.

As for AB best knock, it was Perth 2008 which was what was the turning point for SA's performance in AUS considering the kind of beating they used to get in previous 12 years back home or even away. So let us not go there. You can have your own opinions but here I am talking of what a general consensus is .

#7 wickets in Asia. Let us keep the discussion limited to Philander only. I don't want to sound as some Abentina here.

 

[soso_killer]

When we talk about the greatest batters in last 12 years then names like ABd, Amla, KP, Cook and Clarke comes.

AB had it easy that's the point. There's no denying his genius. But being talented doesn't make anyone great. He along with Tendulkar are probably the most talented bats of their respective generations. But neither would make my Test team as they are soft as cucumbers. I like hardcore cricketers, guys with less talent but have thick skin and can tough it out.
G. Smith, S. Waugh, Laxman.
These are hard men, and have them in my side no matter what. Not guys who jump ship when the going gets tough.

In a same way when we talk about the greatest bowlers in the world in last 11 years, the name that stood up over everyone is Dale Steyn. If anyone is followed by him then it is James Anderson. The guy has skills, mental toughness , fitness and longevity. Then you have the likes of Johnson, Broad and then maybe Philander comes into the talk. It is quite clear why he isn't rated among the greatest bowler of his era.

James Anderson didn't follow anyone. It's all well and good to bully subcontinent teams in your backyard. But he never did anything of substance against a strong SA side. These guys you mention average over 30 in Australia, SA, NZ and England conditions. How are they better than Philander, no one has given me an explanation for that.

<B>He doesn't have longevity, consistent run for 60-70 tests and is limited only to helpful conditions. A total of 7 wickets outside Asia don't really compare with two double hundreds scored along with dozens of 50+ scores in tough batting conditions.</B>

Vern has played almost 50 Tests. He'd have played 60 by the end of the year. Currently at 48.

Now this thread is about Philander. So let's restrict ourselfs to that only. There is no point bringing AB here.

You're the one who brought him up. And I showed you Philander has had more impact on South African Test cricket than AB.

You can bring all your subjective views and put it the way you like but in the cricketing world outside SA, Philander doesn't really come along the lines of those three South Africans.

I don't care about the cricketing world. Most of these so called experts didn't even watch South African cricket closely until they became the number side in the world. I think my views about South African cricket are better than most having watched my country for over 20 years. We drew/lost so many series/games at home because we didn't have a Philander. He was the final jigsaw, a pity he came late though. If Steyn didn't take wickets we either lost or drew too many matches. So when these "neutrals" talk about impact, what impact is that? Coz he sure as hell is winning matches for his country home/away.

As for AB best knock, it was Perth 2008 which was what was the turning point for SA's performance in AUS considering the kind of beating they used to get in previous 12 years back home or even away. So let us not go there. You can have your own opinions but here I am talking of what a general consensus is .

That was not AB's match, that is the match that catapulted Smith as a great captain and leader of men. That's the match that cemented his mental toughness. That is the match that made Smith the greatest chaser Test cricket has ever known. That match had nothing to do with AB.

Mitchell Johnson had run through South Africa taking 8 wickets. It was thought it was a formality that he'd do the same in the second innings. But Smith came out with a positive mindset and showed his team mates run could be scored on that surface. He scored a 100 at 64+. He was brilliant. Amla played his hand, so did Kallis. AB mainly finished the job. Even then he was fathered and mentored by Kallis throughout. Even JP came in towards the end and gave him a helping hand with a fifty. So it's not as if he won the match on his own. Everyone contributed. That was not an impact on knock.

Smith's hundred was the impact knock. It's similar to Sehwag scoring a blistering 90 on a turner chasing 370+ against England. Sachin scored a hundred that day. But Sehwag was the Man of the Match because that innings changed the mindset of the team. From "let's try and salvage a draw" to "wait a minute we can win this game". Those are the impact knocks I'm alluding to that AB lacks. A knock that changes the complexion and the mindset of a game.

 

[soso_killer]

#7 wickets in Asia. Let us keep the discussion limited to Philander only. I don't want to sound as some Abentina here.

Vern must prove himself in Asia. I have not run away from that fact as much as his critics are running away from giving a reasonable explanation as to why "world class" bowlers have failed to make the same impact as Vern in easy conditions?

Even when I include England the likes of Jimmy, Broad average 30+, why?

 

[Ab Fan]

AB had it easy that's the point. There's no denying his genius. But being talented doesn't make anyone great. He along with Tendulkar are probably the most talented bats of their respective generations. But neither would make my Test team as they are soft as cucumbers. I like hardcore cricketers, guys with less talent but have thick skin and can tough it out.
G. Smith, S. Waugh, Laxman.
These are hard men, and have them in my side no matter what. Not guys who jump ship when the going gets tough.


James Anderson didn't follow anyone. It's all well and good to bully subcontinent teams in your backyard. But he never did anything of substance against a strong SA side. These guys you mention average over 30 in Australia, SA, NZ and England conditions. How are they better than Philander, no one has given me an explanation for that.


Vern has played almost 50 Tests. He'd have played 60 by the end of the year. Currently at 48.

You're the one who brought him up. And I showed you Philander has had more impact on South African Test cricket than AB.

I don't care about the cricketing world. Most of these so called experts didn't even watch South African cricket closely until they became the number side in the world. I think my views about South African cricket are better than most having watched my country for over 20 years. We drew/lost so many series/games at home because we didn't have a Philander. He was the final jigsaw, a pity he came late though. If Steyn didn't take wickets we either lost or drew too many matches. So when these "neutrals" talk about impact, what impact is that? Coz he sure as hell is winning matches for his country home/away.



That was not AB's match, that is the match that catapulted Smith as a great captain and leader of men. That's the match that cemented his mental toughness. That is the match that made Smith the greatest chaser Test cricket has ever known. That match had nothing to do with AB.

Mitchell Johnson had run through South Africa taking 8 wickets. It was thought it was a formality that he'd do the same in the second innings. But Smith came out with a positive mindset and showed his team mates run could be scored on that surface. He scored a 100 at 64+. He was brilliant. Amla played his hand, so did Kallis. AB mainly finished the job. Even then he was fathered and mentored by Kallis throughout. Even JP came in towards the end and gave him a helping hand with a fifty. So it's not as if he won the match on his own. Everyone contributed. That was not an impact on knock.

Smith's hundred was the impact knock. It's similar to Sehwag scoring a blistering 90 on a turner chasing 370+ against England. Sachin scored a hundred that day. But Sehwag was the Man of the Match because that innings changed the mindset of the team. From "let's try and salvage a draw" to "wait a minute we can win this game". Those are the impact knocks I'm alluding to that AB lacks. A knock that changes the complexion and the mindset of a game.

Firstly to clarify things, I don't rate AB highly either in tests. So it is better if we put him out of these comparisons. I didn't brought him either. Obviously,when talking of Philander ,those three names can be given as comparisons because they all played in same era and are elite cricketers.

Now you don't care about the cricketing world but I do care about that and I dont care what you think but it's a fact that Philander won't be rated along the same lines as those three overall ( I never mentioned test only either although even there it is true).

Now you can continue with your subjective illogical points which can be shattered too easily because using same logics, some one like Kallis can also be put under questions. The guy never led and contributed in any series win away from home while in contrast his captain was winning it for fun without him showing up in those big series. Using your logics , impact wise Kallis don't stand a chance.

And BTW on 400 chase, who was MOM? All of a sudden, a 50 have become useful in a 400 chase now on a 5th day pitch.Just talking of that match.

 

[Ab Fan]

Jimmy averages 28 and Broad averages 29 with 900 wickets both combined.Its less than 30.

 

[Ab Fan]

And LOL on calling Tendulkar as soft cricketer.

The guy played with same hunger and passion for 24 years and even continued to play his A game after recovering from a career threatening tennis elbow injury and went on to draw a series in SA and win the WC for his team. LMAO on calling him soft cricketer.

 

[soso_killer]

Jimmy averages 28 and Broad averages 29 with 900 wickets both combined.Its less than 30.

Actually it's 30 and 32 respectively against good opposition of pace bowling.

Here