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Is Waqar Younis really an ATG?

Is Waqar Younis really an ATG?

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The_Odd_One said:
What about economy? Pollock's economy was full 1 run less than Waqar which meant on average he gave 10 runs less in every match.
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Economy doesn't win you matches.

Good for containing and at times it can lead to wickets but a batsman will also play out a line and length bowler.
 
The_Odd_One said:
1989 to 1994
-----------------
Matches = 33
Wickets = 190
Average = 19
SR = 36
5-fers = 19

vs Australia = 34, in Australia = 56
vs England = 25, in England = 25
vs India = 39, in India = N/A
vs NZ = 14, in NZ = 18
vs SL = 17, in SL = 16
vs WI = 19, in WI = 20
vs Zimbabwe = 14, in Zimbabwe = N/A


1995 to 2003
-----------------
Matches = 54
Wickets = 183
Average = 28
SR = 51
5-fers = 3 (Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, SA)

vs Australia = 33, in Australia = 34
vs England = 28, in England = 29
vs India = 76, in India = 76
vs NZ = 40, in NZ = 62
vs SL = 29, in SL = 27
vs WI = 30, in WI = 42
vs Zimbabwe = 24, in Zimbabwe = 21
vs SA = 29, in SA = 28


Averages of other bowlers from 1995 to 2003:

Akram = 24
Ambrose = 20
McGrath = 20
Pollock = 20
Walsh = 23
Donald = 21
Gillespi = 25
Reiffel = 24
Fleming = 26
Streak = 28
Vaas = 30
Cairns = 27
Kallis = 29
Ntini = 28
Lee = 30
Akhtar = 23
Caddick = 28
Gough = 28
Srinath = 29

So, it seems like Waqar was a third tier bowler for almost half of his career.

Tier 1 had Akram, McGrath, Pollock, Donald, Ambrose, and Walsh.
Tier 2 had Gillespi, Fleming, Reiffel, and Akhtar
<B>Tier 3 had Waqar, Vaas, Streak, Ntini, Srinath, Gough, etc.</B>

Even in his peak years, he bullied these batting attacks:

1. WI (Greenidge and Haynes were like Younis and Misbah, Lara was the only world class batsman)
2. NZ (had the worst batting line-up of all teams, Crowe was the only world class batsman who averaged 50+ against Waqar).
3. SL (was a minnow team)
4. Zimbabwe (was a minnow team)

The question is should Waqar be considered an ATG just because for like 3-4 years, he bullied minnows and weak batting line-ups?
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Waqar and Srinath at same level? :salute
 
This thread is awesome, Gillespie Riefel Fleming and Akhtar not just better than Waqar but a class above and Walsh tier 1 ATG :sendoff
 
Lolz at the thread .
One of the most lethal fast bowlers the world cricket has ever seen , my favourite legend .
 
It means Waqar was at Srinath level since 1995. And also, Waqar doesnt have a great performance in WC.

Can we say he was lucky not to have played in era of internet and popular cricket forums?
 
Waqar pre-back injury was a contender for a spot in an all-time XI. The post-back injury version was far inferior but has better stats than India's three best fast bowlers in Srinath, Kapil and Zaheer. That tells you all you need.

What's this trend on PP of questioning the ATG status of unquestionable legends like Dravid and Waqar?
 
Can't believe i actually took the time out to pull out stats to do this. You've compared his averages, but forgot about Strike rates. I did a quick comparison between Wasim and Waqar on the basis that you consider one an ATG and not the other. Here are the facts:

- they are different bowlers, Waqar bowled full attacking the stumps with the aim of taking wickets - he was a pure wicket taker. This meant he would go for more runs, which also blows out the average

- waqars strike rate meant that for every 2 wickets that wasim would take, waqar would take 3. FACT.

- the fact is that Waqar post injury and accoring to you "in the back half" of his career still had a better strike rate than wasim in his prime. That should tell you enough

- if waqar played the same number of matches as wasim, the stats tell us he would have had many more wickets than wasim

Comparison.jpg
 
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-cards="hidden" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A night to remember <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Honoured?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Honoured</a> Thank you <a href="https://twitter.com/CricketHOF?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@CricketHOF</a> for a special evening <a href="https://twitter.com/DrFaryalWaqar?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@DrFaryalWaqar</a> <a href="https://t.co/Hl64Kf9NoB">pic.twitter.com/Hl64Kf9NoB</a></p>— Waqar Younis (@waqyounis99) <a href="https://twitter.com/waqyounis99/status/1194906354294460416?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 14, 2019</a></blockquote>
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Waqar at his peak was one of best bowlers world cricket has ever seen.

Even after his back injury waqar was a good bowler and far better than anything India has produced in there entire existence as cricketing nation.
 
Amjid Javed said:
Waqar at his peak was one of best bowlers world cricket has ever seen.

Even after his back injury waqar was a good bowler and far better than anything India has produced in there entire existence as cricketing nation.
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Insecurity much? What has India got to do with this thread? Even the OP is a Pak fan. Anyone claiming Waqar is not an ATG is either doesn't understand cricket or simply trolling, that being said Bumrah and Shami has been comfortably better than post injury Waqar which is pretty impressive considering they never had the luxury to use bottle caps and stuff.
 
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Hyperion66 said:
Insecurity much? What has India got to do with this thread? Even the OP is a Pak fan. Anyone claiming Waqar is not an ATG is either doesn't understand cricket or simply trolling, that being said Bumrah and Shami has been comfortably better than post injury Waqar which is pretty impressive considering they never had the luxury to use bottle caps and stuff.
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bumrah and shami will go down as all time greats too. God forbid no injuries to bumrah who is already better than shane bond.
 
People must remember back in the 90s there were no Afghanistan - WI or Srilanka batting line up to take advantage and improve stats. The likes of Bumrah filled his boots against Srilanka and WI batting line up same as Shami although I respect both bowlers but they are not Waqar level.

Actually now a days if you get really lucky and get to play those teams a lot you can have a really good career so we must include this distinction. Test cricket in general has regressed outside of Big 3 and we must take this into account.
 
Pakhs said:
People must remember back in the 90s there were no Afghanistan - WI or Srilanka batting line up to take advantage and improve stats. The likes of Bumrah filled his boots against Srilanka and WI batting line up same as Shami although I respect both bowlers but they are not Waqar level.

Actually now a days if you get really lucky and get to play those teams a lot you can have a really good career so we must include this distinction. Test cricket in general has regressed outside of Big 3 and we must take this into account.
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waqar's average vs india australia and n.z is pretty poor. He is still an ATG.
 
Hyperion66 said:
Insecurity much? What has India got to do with this thread? Even the OP is a Pak fan. Anyone claiming Waqar is not an ATG is either doesn't understand cricket or simply trolling, that being said Bumrah and Shami has been comfortably better than post injury Waqar which is pretty impressive considering they never had the luxury to use bottle caps and stuff.
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Bottle caps and stuff? Did Tendulkar and dravid not get fined for ball tampering in the 90s and early 2000s? So clearly so called "cheating" can just be a pakistani thing can it? ;)

Not insecure at all, just makes me laugh when people compared players like srinath and prasad to waqar which is laughable.
 
I reserve the ATG tag for all-round players, ones who performed everywhere. Waqar sadly was extremely poor in two major Cricketing nations (India and Australia), so not an ATG for me. However he does have that legacy of an insane peak, something that will be talked about for decades, just like Virender Sehwag.
 
Arya said:
I reserve the ATG tag for all-round players, ones who performed everywhere. Waqar sadly was extremely poor in two major Cricketing nations (India and Australia), so not an ATG for me. However he does have that legacy of an insane peak, something that will be talked about for decades, just like Virender Sehwag.
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waqar was excellent in South Africa though. haha he's saffers were no joke.
 
I think Waqar is an ODI ATG.

He ended his career with 416 ODI wickets and 373 Test wickets. It is not easy to take 400+ wickets in ODI as a pacer but he did.
 
Amjid Javed said:
Bottle caps and stuff? Did Tendulkar and dravid not get fined for ball tampering in the 90s and early 2000s? So clearly so called "cheating" can just be a pakistani thing can it? ;)

Not insecure at all, just makes me laugh when people compared players like srinath and prasad to waqar which is laughable.
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Who did?
 
dirk diggler said:
Never rated those 95mph inswinging yorkers, made no discernible impression at county or international level
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What? Okay, this post is from 3 years ago, but you couldn't have been watching Waqar - destroyed many county and International batting lineups with those yorkers.

This guy is a legend of Pak cricket. One of the best players ever to watch when in full flow.
 
Definitely an ATG. Anybody questioning that status can't be serious. But he's not the best after Marshall either. Purely in test cricket, I'd take Steyn, McGrath and probably even Ambrose ahead of him and Donald/Wasim were his equals. So where he stands in that ATG list is debatable.
 
Amjid Javed said:
Bottle caps and stuff? Did Tendulkar and dravid not get fined for ball tampering in the 90s and early 2000s? So clearly so called "cheating" can just be a pakistani thing can it? ;)

Not insecure at all, just makes me laugh when people compared players like srinath and prasad to waqar which is laughable.
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Yes Javed Ji Bottle caps and stuff, Imran khan himself admitted, you want a source for that? BTW Sachin and Dravid got punished for what they allegedly did, while your legends got away with robbing in plain daylight. You should consider them immensely lucky that ICC only started taking tempering and fixing seriously post Cronje, Nehi toh "Sab taj uchale jaate, sab takht giraye jaate"
 
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Amjid Javed said:
Not insecure at all, just makes me laugh when people compared players like srinath and prasad to waqar which is laughable.
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BTW a poster of your post count should not get worked up like that, I admit I have not read the entire thread but all I see is Indians by and large agreeing with Waqar's ATG status. The OP is a Pakistani who started this debate in the first place.
 
Kroll said:
What? Okay, this post is from 3 years ago, but you couldn't have been watching Waqar - destroyed many county and International batting lineups with those yorkers.

This guy is a legend of Pak cricket. One of the best players ever to watch when in full flow.
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I am 100% sure that was sarcasm.
 
He is a lower tier ATG and will find his place among the top 15 fast bowlers of all-time and behind below names:-

Australia:- Glenn McGrath, Dennis Lillee

SA:- Steyn, Donald

NZ:- Hadlee

Pak- Wasim, Imran

WI- Marshall, Ambrose, Holding, Garner

So, he is at no.12 with Pollock, Willis, Roberts and Walsh to follow.
 
Kroll said:
Thanks, looks like jumped the gun there, oops.
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Quite alright bro.

Waqar is an out and out ATG but one does not have to belittle Indian bowlers to elevate his status, that is immature and uncalled for.
 
Ab Fan said:
He is a lower tier ATG and will find his place among the top 15 fast bowlers of all-time and behind below names:-

Australia:- Glenn McGrath, Dennis Lillee

SA:- Steyn, Donald

NZ:- Hadlee

Pak- Wasim, Imran

WI- Marshall, Ambrose, Holding, Garner

So, he is at no.12 with Pollock, Willis, Roberts and Walsh to follow.
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This post is demonstrably wrong.

Only Marshall, Wasim Akram, Steyn and Lillee have a claim to be in the same category as Waqar Younis as a quick bowler on that list.

Firstly, Dale Steyn is basically indistinguishable from Waqar as a bowler.

Secondly, McGrath, Ambrose and Garner were attritional defensive bowlers who could not come in and transform a match by blowing the opposition away.

Thirdly, Michael Holding and Allan Donald were nowhere near the level of Waqar, as they had pace and literally nothing else - no swing, no seam movement.

If you want to tier the fast bowlers, off the top of my head it would look like this.

HIGHEST CLASS
Malcolm Marshall

NEXT-HIGHEST CLASS
Ian Bishop
Allan Davidson
Dennis Lillee
Richard Hadlee
Imran Khan
Mike Procter
Dale Steyn
Fred Trueman
Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis

NEXT CLASS DOWN - accurate, attritional, tall, not express in pace
Curtly Ambrose
Joel Garner
Glenn McGrath
Vince Van Der Bijl

FOURTH CLASS
Allan Donald
Michael Holding
Shaun Pollock
Andy Roberts
 
Abdullah719 said:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-cards="hidden" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A night to remember <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Honoured?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Honoured</a> Thank you <a href="https://twitter.com/CricketHOF?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@CricketHOF</a> for a special evening <a href="https://twitter.com/DrFaryalWaqar?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@DrFaryalWaqar</a> <a href="https://t.co/Hl64Kf9NoB">pic.twitter.com/Hl64Kf9NoB</a></p>— Waqar Younis (@waqyounis99) <a href="https://twitter.com/waqyounis99/status/1194906354294460416?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 14, 2019</a></blockquote>
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Pakistan team celebrating bowling coach Waqar Younis' induction in the Bradman Hall of Fame Award. Pics via PCB.

EJagEBNWwAE5q6L.jpg


EJagEBNWkAAwBKQ.jpg


EJagEBOWwAAOCGk.jpg
 
I think since we have almost unanimously established that he is an ATG hence this thread doesn't serve any purpose no more and should be closed.
 
Junaids said:
This post is demonstrably wrong.

Only Marshall, Wasim Akram, Steyn and Lillee have a claim to be in the same category as Waqar Younis as a quick bowler on that list.

Firstly, Dale Steyn is basically indistinguishable from Waqar as a bowler.

Secondly, McGrath, Ambrose and Garner were attritional defensive bowlers who could not come in and transform a match by blowing the opposition away.

Thirdly, Michael Holding and Allan Donald were nowhere near the level of Waqar, as they had pace and literally nothing else - no swing, no seam movement.

If you want to tier the fast bowlers, off the top of my head it would look like this.

HIGHEST CLASS
Malcolm Marshall

NEXT-HIGHEST CLASS
Ian Bishop
Allan Davidson
Dennis Lillee
Richard Hadlee
Imran Khan
Mike Procter
Dale Steyn
Fred Trueman
Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis

NEXT CLASS DOWN - accurate, attritional, tall, not express in pace
Curtly Ambrose
Joel Garner
Glenn McGrath
Vince Van Der Bijl

FOURTH CLASS
Allan Donald
Michael Holding
Shaun Pollock
Andy Roberts
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Pat Cummins is the best fast bowler in test cricket right now and he barely moves the ball either in the air or off the pitch. Bowlers who use a combination of speed, bounce and relentless accuracy to get wickets are not a tier below the the likes of waqar and Steyn just because they don't swing /seam the ball as much.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
Pat Cummins is the best fast bowler in test cricket right now and he barely moves the ball either in the air or off the pitch. Bowlers who use a combination of speed, bounce and relentless accuracy to get wickets are not a tier below the the likes of waqar and Steyn just because they don't swing /seam the ball as much.
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I think Pat Cummins is more like modern day Courtney Walsh.
 
Hyperion66 said:
I think since we have almost unanimously established that he is an ATG hence this thread doesn't serve any purpose no more and should be closed.
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Would you consider a batsman an ATG if he averaged 17 in England and 24 in Australia?

Waqar averages 76 in India and 41 in Australia.

Only countries he averaged less than 27 were Zimbabwe, Bangladesh WI, Sri Lanka, UAE and Pakistan.
 
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Waqar bhai's Test career -

Very bad in India.
Poor in Australia.
Average in NZ, SA and England.
Very good/exceptional in Zimbabwe, Bangladesh WI, Sri Lanka, UAE and Pakistan.

That's not an ATG bowler for me. There's a reason why Waz bhai was always considered superior to Waqar in his playing days. Waqar had a great peak, but definitely not among top tier greats (ATGs).
 
The OP certainly lives up to his name with such a thread because it certainly is an odd claim to have been made from The Odd One.
 
Arya said:
Would you consider a batsman an ATG if he averaged 17 in England and 24 in Australia?

Waqar averages 76 in India and 41 in Australia.

Only countries he averaged less than 27 were Zimbabwe, Bangladesh WI, Sri Lanka, UAE and Pakistan.
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He is the bowling version of Sehwag, on song both won matches single handedly, both gave some of the most insane and freakishly amazing performances cricket has ever seen and both had their flaws but still both are ATGs overall due to the match winning ability and sheer impact they had on the game.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Thankyou <a href="https://twitter.com/ScottMorrisonMP?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@ScottMorrisonMP</a> for your kind words. Feel truly honoured to be the 1st Pakistani cricketer to receive this acknowledgment. <a href="https://twitter.com/CricketHOF?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@CricketHOF</a> <a href="https://t.co/Lb3rXpl50t">pic.twitter.com/Lb3rXpl50t</a></p>— Waqar Younis (@waqyounis99) <a href="https://twitter.com/waqyounis99/status/1196017806107533313?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 17, 2019</a></blockquote>
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[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

I have seen quite a few of the bowlers you have listed, and its widely accepted that marshall was the best fast bowler ever.
However, i can honestly say, marshall was less skillful than akram and less devastating than waqar when waqar got the ball reversing.
However, marshall was more consistent, but was he really that much better than imran?

I would put marshall in the top tier with the others and not on his own in the highest tier.
Before people pull out stats, just take a moment to see who marshall played for and his bowling partners. Playing for the best team in the world is always going to give you an advantage.
 
Junaids said:
This post is demonstrably wrong.

Only Marshall, Wasim Akram, Steyn and Lillee have a claim to be in the same category as Waqar Younis as a quick bowler on that list.

Firstly, Dale Steyn is basically indistinguishable from Waqar as a bowler.

Secondly, McGrath, Ambrose and Garner were attritional defensive bowlers who could not come in and transform a match by blowing the opposition away.

Thirdly, Michael Holding and Allan Donald were nowhere near the level of Waqar, as they had pace and literally nothing else - no swing, no seam movement.

If you want to tier the fast bowlers, off the top of my head it would look like this.

HIGHEST CLASS
Malcolm Marshall

NEXT-HIGHEST CLASS
Ian Bishop
Allan Davidson
Dennis Lillee
Richard Hadlee
Imran Khan
Mike Procter
Dale Steyn
Fred Trueman
Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis

NEXT CLASS DOWN - accurate, attritional, tall, not express in pace
Curtly Ambrose
Joel Garner
Glenn McGrath
Vince Van Der Bijl

FOURTH CLASS
Allan Donald
Michael Holding
Shaun Pollock
Andy Roberts
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Ok, i have three queries.

1:
"Ambrose cant blow an opposition"
Where does this come from, this guy took 7 for 1 at WACA.
There is a case for ambrose being the most destructive bowler ever, he has a bunch of such performances.
Infact ambi and bishop played together but still ambrose was their spearhead not ian.

2:
Richard hadlee and alan davidson weren't express pacers so dunno what they are doing in that category.

3:
Ian bishop over ambrose and mcgrath. :yk

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] do u agree with this bowlers ranking.
 
Junaids said:
This post is demonstrably wrong.

Only Marshall, Wasim Akram, Steyn and Lillee have a claim to be in the same category as Waqar Younis as a quick bowler on that list.

Firstly, Dale Steyn is basically indistinguishable from Waqar as a bowler.

Secondly, McGrath, Ambrose and Garner were attritional defensive bowlers who could not come in and transform a match by blowing the opposition away.

Thirdly, Michael Holding and Allan Donald were nowhere near the level of Waqar, as they had pace and literally nothing else - no swing, no seam movement.

If you want to tier the fast bowlers, off the top of my head it would look like this.

HIGHEST CLASS
Malcolm Marshall

NEXT-HIGHEST CLASS
Ian Bishop
Allan Davidson
Dennis Lillee
Richard Hadlee
Imran Khan
Mike Procter
Dale Steyn
Fred Trueman
Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis

NEXT CLASS DOWN - accurate, attritional, tall, not express in pace
Curtly Ambrose
Joel Garner
Glenn McGrath
Vince Van Der Bijl

FOURTH CLASS
Allan Donald
Michael Holding
Shaun Pollock
Andy Roberts
Click to expand...

I will personally rate them in tiers as below:-

Tier 1:- Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Wasim, Lillee

Tier 2:- Steyn, Imran, Donald, Ambrose

Tier 3:- Waqar, Garner, Holding, Roberts, Pollock, Walsh, Bishop

15 names on top of my mind
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
Ok, i have three queries.

1:
"Ambrose cant blow an opposition"
Where does this come from, this guy took 7 for 1 at WACA.
There is a case for ambrose being the most destructive bowler ever, he has a bunch of such performances.
Infact ambi and bishop played together but still ambrose was their spearhead not ian.

2:
Richard hadlee and alan davidson weren't express pacers so dunno what they are doing in that category.

3:
Ian bishop over ambrose and mcgrath. :yk


[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] do u agree with this bowlers ranking.
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Few objections (culd be his personal preference), but overall, I think the ranks are acceptable.

Regarding WY, I'll actually keep him in that level, but add few with him - he started absolutely brilliantly (I actually am a big fan, served as his ball boy once in nets, tried to copy his initial action :( ), but over a long career, he faded away. Same goes for ODI - guy had 10-12 4+ hauls in first 50-60 games and most were match winning, sometimes from no where, then there was a massive decline, until last phase of career when he found his out swing in UK. For his SR only, I won't mind him to be in the top tier, but it's a bit silly to put Glen McGrath in lower tier then.

If I am to list exact those bowlers, I'll probably list it like this (Not in particular order) -

Top Tier:
Marshall: the ultimate fast bowler.
Wasim: The magician, stats will never justify his legacy
DK Lillee: The most complete fast bowler ever, and no one can match his mentality

Next:
Richard Hadlee
Imran Khan
Dale Steyn
Fred Trueman
Waqar Younis
Glen McGrath
C Ambrose

Next:
Donald
Holding
Roberts

Next:
Rest others

I think, Junaids is always a bit excited with the height of pacer, therefore Garner, Bishop, Van der Bijl are rated a bit higher (though not sure why Ambi & McGrath missed out).


[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION], you have missed RR Lindwall, who was arguably higher rated than Truman. And, couple of other pacers should be considered in your list - bowlers who were/are arguably better than the names you listed - J Snow, WW Hall, Neil Adcock, J Gillespee, Shoaib and my personal favorite - Jimmy Anderson. It's a pacers list, therefore Fazal Mahmood should be in the mix as well, and I'll put him in 3rd level.
 
What is with people these days !!! It is not mandatory to have a good record everywhere. From viewing experience, we all know he can be lethal on any conditions. Some things don't work out always. Waqar in full flow is an experience. There are players who would rather face Wasim than him if given an option. Defo ATG for me.
 
WengerOut said:
What is with people these days !!! It is not mandatory to have a good record everywhere. From viewing experience, we all know he can be lethal on any conditions. Some things don't work out always. Waqar in full flow is an experience. There are players who would rather face Wasim than him if given an option. Defo ATG for me.
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True - I have seen him in his early days, by the side of nets and when he wasn't bothering for front-foot .... absolute unique experience. That ball will whistle past batsman with a humming that's bound to strike fear among batsmen. Before his stress fracture, he had the most frightening ball the game had ever seen - a swerving toe crasher, which would come back late, come back at blistering pace and some how it'll find the front toe.

At their prime 3 years, I doubt if ever any pacer will match a WY in his rhythm - I used to refer WY as the phenom (aka, Fat Ronaldo - at his best, the most fearsome attacker the game of soccer had ever seen).
 
Legend, all-time great, match-winner, superstar, idolised around the world.
 
I would have liked to see the stats of other bowlers between 1989-1994 because I think during that period, Waqar is arguably the greatest fast bowler. I will try to make it though.

However, I feel quite disheartened considering how Pakistani posters undermine Shaun Pollock on this forum. He averaged 20 between 1995-2003( 8 years period) and people argue that he is not an ATG. That's completely ridiculous.
 
The bowler from 1989 to 1998 was an all time great. The bowler from 1999 to 2003 was a faded bowler who played on past reputation and should have been moved on.
 
Here we go then.

1989-1994

Waqar- 19
Bishop- 20.4
Ambrose- 20.4
Wasim- 20.7
Walsh- 26

Waqar was clearly the best fast bowler in the world during the period of 1989-1994 but a tier- 3 level bowler after that. I would argue that he is as much an ATG as Pollock and Walsh are.

Pollock averaged 20 for his first 300 test wickets while Walsh averaged 26 till 1994 and got better and ended up with average of 24.
 
Yes he is.

Where he ranks among other ATGs is subjective but anyone who does not co sider Waqar lovingly known was Vicky The Jatt, is being incredibly disrespectful and is no true fan of the game.

A true fan of the game would NEVER insult a great player.
 
Not an ATG but definitely a player that had a major impact on fast bowling. He was the most dangerous exponent of the yorker. Waqar never had a good bouncer and according to his most supportive peers like Rashid and Inzi...he wasted the new ball. He was one dimensional for sure but he didn’t need anything else in his armory to cause fear in the batsmen.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OnThisDay?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#OnThisDay</a> in 1996. Waqar Younis was at his toe-crushing best at Lord's with match figures of 8-154 as Pakistan beat England by 164 runs <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a> <a href="https://t.co/yMaoAkK525">pic.twitter.com/yMaoAkK525</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1420655053749329926?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 29, 2021</a></blockquote>
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No, all-time great is a very exclusive category reserved for those who would be shortlisted for selection for an all-time great XI.

Pakistan only has two who reach that level, Imran Khan and Wasim Akram.

Waqar is a tier below, he is a (national) great, worldclass bowler but not among the best of the best, except maybe among some Pakistan fans.
 
Waqar's peak is also overrated. Feasted mainly on NZ, Sri Lanka and Zimbabwe. Failed in Australia. Was frequently hammered with the new ball only to clean up the lower order and tail with reverse.

Wasim even during Waqar's peak was considered the better bowler. In fact, please tell me one batsman of note who rates Waqar ahead.
 
Firstly there is no mathematical formula to work out which player is an ATG. Although it’s true the ATGs all have impressive stats and career records , and Waqar’s stats at the end of his career in test and ODI cricket are well worthy of an ATG.

In fact if you look at the first part of his career, to take 19 5-fers in your first 33 tests at an average and strike rate that was unheard of then and ever since, that is no joke …

Yes it’s true Waqar’s explosive style of fast bowling made him more injury prone and he would not be able to maintain bowling at that speed and intensity as he did in his first 6 years for the rest of his career - it was always going to deteriorate with age and injuries..

However leaving aside stats briefly , I’ve always preferred trusting my own eyes and judgement with the cricketers I’ve watched to decide if they are ATGs. And Waqar at his peak was the most destructive sight in world cricket ever, it’s not even questionable , he’s an ATG.

Yes there may be stats showing he took more wickets v New Zealand then Australia for instance — but having watched Waqar’s best spells at the way he triggered collapses , I have no doubt in my mind that many of his unplayable deliveries that were wasted on tailenders or lesser batsmen were also going to be unplayable for arguably any batsman ever.

Does anyone remember that special delivery from Mohammed Asif that bowled Sachin and had him on all fours !? Or those Yorkers from Shoaib that cleaned up Tendulkar and Dravid in consecutive balls? Well I can say categorically Waqar bowled countless wicket taking deliveries every bit as unplayable as those if not more lethal - that would have cleaned up Sachin, Dravid, Lara, Ponting , even Bradman if they were batting at the receiving end instead of a tailender.

Proof ? just search for “ Waqar unplayable” in YouTube and judge for yourselves.. how many bowlers could consistently produce wicket taking deliveries like that which would knock out stumps or lbw and not rely on even fielders for help ?
 
To add to my last post, I would use the analogy of George Best the footballer - he scored 9 goals from 37 games playing for Northern Ireland in international football , and like Waqar his career was short and sweet (as the bowler in 2nd half of Waqar’s career after his injuries was not the same guy, almost like another bowler), and you could say he should never be mentioned alongside Pele, Maradona, Messi et al. But he does , and why is that ?

Because everyone who watched Best at his prime and there are videos of him on YouTube also, will be left in no doubt that this guy had footballing skills and was a player of the calibre you see once in a lifetime. He had it in him to score goals dribbling past the world’s best defenders today and beating any goal keeper, and the same 10/20/30/40/50 years ago. That’s what made him a footballing ATG ,
 
Anyone who disagrees to Vikki The Jatt being a legend of the game is showcasing bias of the lowest quality.

Sorry but it has to be said
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OnThisDay?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#OnThisDay</a> in 1971. The birth of the brilliant Waqar Younis, the bowler who with Wasim Akram took reverse-swing to a new level with their toe-crushing yorkers <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a> <a href="https://t.co/2bRQVUFNm5">pic.twitter.com/2bRQVUFNm5</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@SajSadiqCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/SajSadiqCricket/status/1592796455517159426?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 16, 2022</a></blockquote>
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JAV12341 said:
No got carted around in the crunch match against India by jadeja
Click to expand...
So ATG tag is dependent on not getting carted around by Jadeja?

Anyway, Waqar's ATG status not due to ODI. He was no one in ODI format, but gun in the test format for few years.
 
Definitely ATG except the opinion of keyboard warriors who dig selective stats to filter players 414 Test wickets is no joke, from Ponting to Sachin to Lara all rate Waqar as tier 1 player
 
Kianig89 said:
Definitely ATG except the opinion of keyboard warriors who dig selective stats to filter players 414 Test wickets is no joke, from Ponting to Sachin to Lara all rate Waqar as tier 1 player
Click to expand...
373 Test wickets.
 
Usain Bolt was a fan of his and Pakistani cricket. That's seriously cool. Greatest athlete in history was a Wicki fanboy. If only Pakistan knew how to honour its heroes
 
SpiritOf1903 said:
Usain Bolt was a fan of his and Pakistani cricket. That's seriously cool. Greatest athlete in history was a Wicki fanboy. If only Pakistan knew how to honour its heroes
Click to expand...
Many do.
From cricketers donald, Ponting and Waugh bros do.
 
789 wickets in 349 international matches

Fastest to 400 ODI wickets

Most five-wicket hauls in ODIs (13)

Happy birthday to The Greadt, Waqar Younis.
 
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