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Malcolm X, Converts & Moving Past Window Dressing Islam

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Malcolm X, Converts & Moving Past Window Dressing Islam


Mohammed Saleem on 16 February 2015

Mohammed Saleem is the editor-in-chief of ImanWire and contributor for Al-Madina Institute. He tweets at @imanwired.

America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered ‘white’—but the ‘white’ attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color.

-The Autobiography of Malcolm X 1


Growing up Muslim in greater white America, Malcolm X was a figure rarely spoken of. This was no different in the insular immigrant Muslim community, borne out of an ignorance of the full trajectory of his life, its own racial attitudes and ethnocentric concerns, and a disinterest in the struggle for black liberation (and indeed most issues facing indigenous minorities). If there was a cursory mention of him, it simply parroted the narrative and assessment of Malcolm that white Christian America defined for them: He was one of those Black Muslims (not a real one), he was dangerous, he ruffled feathers, he was unpalatable to his society—in other words, he was the opposite of what most immigrant Muslims were trying to achieve in their materialistic American dream that promised security. Like most immigrants, trying to gain a socioeconomic foothold in the land and establish themselves was the paramount concern; interest in the local struggles unpopular to their masters, the ruling white establishment—no matter how severe the injustice—was not.

While second-generation Muslims enjoyed the economic comforts of what their immigrant parents had established for them, finding relevancy in the American landscape and forming a distinctly American Muslim identity was the challenge. For me, and I’m sure countless others, the fateful day was when, by chance, I came across The Autobiography of Malcolm X as a teenager browsing in the library. To my astonishment, as I flicked through the pages, a chapter titled “Mecca” caught my eye and I read on. For the first time in my life, there it was, an example of a real American Muslim that rang true. The specifics of our alienation may have differed, but its essence, and the path to rectifying it, was the same. Any notions of cultural dissonance and ambiguity were finally clarified into a vision of who the American Muslim should be—reflections of the spiritual light of the Messenger ﷺ, calling humanity to what is greater than themselves, while freeing them from the yokes of injustice and barriers that prevent them from reaching their God-given potential.

Whether you are “immigrant” or “indigenous”, The Autobiography of Malcolm X is the book every American Muslim needs to have close to their heart. His moving account of the Hajj, in particular, and the ensuing transformation he experiences is required reading. We do him a great disservice however when we limit our conception of him to only the Hajj. Pigeonholing Malcolm to his Hajj experience alone also reflects our tendency to do the same to converts2 in general, as we often ignore their life experience preceding their Islam, even though those experiences fostered their Islam and could, if we allowed it, foster our own awakening. Reflecting on the period of Malcolm’s life after the Hajj is therefore essential because it highlights our need to integrate our role as callers to Islam with the call to justice.



After the Hajj in April 1964, Malcolm travelled extensively throughout Africa and the Middle East (two separate trips spanning a total of six months) forming relationships with leaders while highlighting the struggle of black Americans in a greater global context, calling on the world to support their liberation. Before Hajj, locally at home, he had established the Muslim Mosque Inc. to serve as the spiritual base for Muslims. After Hajj, he founded the Organization of Afro-American Unity (OAAU), a non-religious organization that allowed non-Muslims and Muslims to participate. The two organizations were conceived to be complementary, one serving the spiritual needs specific to Muslims themselves and necessary for black liberation, the other seeking broader cooperation with those of other faiths to achieve that same goal. The flowering of his faith did not make him more exclusive, but rather made his efforts more expansive, as the fight for black liberation was a human issue, not simply for those of African descent. True faith expands both merciful love and justice, rather than restricting it.

Several of his contemporaries in the Muslim world hoped however that he would stress calling people to orthodox Islam after Hajj, perhaps hoping his outspoken focus on black liberation would fade away or cease. They failed to understand that truly internalizing Islam as Malcolm did bolstered and guided his effort to serve humanity, first and foremost by addressing the most pressing injustice facing his community—fighting white supremacy. It was a call he would never abandon, as it was inseparable from his very religious identity.3

This attitude is sadly shared by many “born” Muslims in our relationship with our brothers and sisters who have accepted Islam. Like Malcolm, we expect their “Hajj moment”, their entrance into the faith, to mark the abandonment of every concern and struggle they had in their “pre-Islamic” life. “You’re Muslim now, there is no longer racism. We are all brothers. You can forget about the other causes now.” That may not be exactly what we say, but it’s what we mean.

It is this idealization of Muslims that causes us to be blinded to the evident racism both in and outside the community, as well as the real social problems on our very doorstep living in America. Many an African-American Muslim has heard the critique from their Christian counterparts: “You moved from the back of the bus to the back of the mosque.” Yes, this phenomenon is a product of racism, but it also stems from the immigrant Muslim communities’ overall failure to learn from the struggles and culture of those who convert. The thinking essentially is: We were always Muslim. These are the issues that really matter to our tribe of Islam, adopt our cultural identity and narrative to replace your own, and forget everything else. It’s not just racism, it’s our feeling of religious superiority and authenticity, a type of intra-Muslim exceptionalism based on our own cultural standards rather than the overarching Divine message.

This reality on the ground in our communities will always then be fodder for both critics and non-Muslim supporters of Malcolm himself. As powerful as his Hajj account may be for Muslims, skeptics have always called into question the real meaning of his post-Hajj conclusions about race. In 1967, Reverend Albert Cleage went so far as to state that Malcolm could not have been duped by the “window dressing” at Hajj, noting the reality of racism and slavery in the Middle East.4 Others posited that the Autobiography intentionally idealized the Hajj as a form of religious propaganda. Even some of Malcolm’s own followers questioned his new conclusions about race relations that were reflected in the letters he wrote while abroad.

Was his experience on Hajj not entirely “real” because racism exists in the Muslim world, or could they simply not believe that this type of brotherhood could exist at all, regardless of religious affiliation?

Muslims would argue the emotions and insights experienced by Malcolm were in fact undoubtedly real, based on their own personal experiences, yet this does not negate the fact that racism exists in the Muslim community. When we are in congregational prayer or performing the rites of Hajj alongside people of different colors and cultures, there is real brotherhood—within that act of ritual worship. This is evident by the fact that the thoughts about these differences between us are absent in our minds as we perform these acts. Even a racist Muslim would not likely be bothered by or even consider the race of the worshiper in close contact with him as he performs his prayer. That these conscious feelings are removed in this ibadah, no matter how brief this may be, is the mercy and beauty that God has blessed the community of Muhammad ﷺ in these rites of congregational worship. We do not pray in parallel, we are connected, at the very least temporarily, as human beings together in worship of Allah alone.

The degree by which we inculcate the universal message of Islam and demonstrate our taqwa (God-consciousness) to the Creator depends on how much we strive to extend that feeling of brotherhood beyond these acts of ritual worship. Malcolm was blessed with the insight to see that this could be extended beyond worship, that Islam could solve the race problem, if Islam was truly practiced as it was intended to be by God and His Messenger ﷺ.



That was, and is, his lasting challenge to the American Muslim community, fifty years later. Making the brotherhood a reality requires that we truly learn about the issues and struggles unique to the life experiences of both our co-religionists from different backgrounds and our neighbors of other faiths. For converts, it means appreciating and learning from the positive elements of their life prior to their testimony of faith. When Hakim ibn Hizam (may Allah be pleased with him), who lived for 60 years prior to accepting Islam, asked the Prophet ﷺ what would happen to his prior good deeds, which notably included maintaining good relations with others, charity and freeing slaves, the Prophet replied, “You embraced Islam with all the good deeds which you did in the past”.5 His very acceptance of Islam, in fact, was the result of the good he had done previously, and he would be rewarded for both.

How then could we ever expect someone to leave or diminish a struggle for which the gift of Islam was its reward? Indeed, it should be the reverse; we must embrace that struggle not only to serve the obligation of justice Islam mandates on us, but to share in the blessings and spiritual gifts from that struggle. Moreover, the Prophet ﷺ made it a point to indicate that he would still fulfill the pledge of Hilf-ul-Fudul, an agreement safeguarding the safety and security of people by the Quraysh before his Prophethood. Good causes remain good causes, regardless of the parties involved, and we must not be reticent to work with anyone. Like Malcolm’s OAAU, we don’t need to require Muslim membership to collaborate.

Our goal must be to actively seek out and support whatever benefits people on the ground, rather than passively react to an endlessly negative news cycle that only serves to paralyze and distract us from the greater good. If those causes happens to benefit Muslims, that is a blessing, but it is never the intent. “And no one has in his mind no favor from anyone for which a reward is expected in return, except the seeking of the pleasure of his Lord, the most High” (The Qur'an, Al-Layl: 19-20). We are only the best community when we enjoin what is just for the sake of God alone, not for the sake of appearances or secondary motives. As Malcolm taught us that is the only way we can cure ourselves of the deeply entrenched cancer of racism. The struggle has to be our own and emanate from pure hearts that implore God to remove this disease and make us beacons of light in the world, so that the spirit of Hajj permeates all our relationships. To strive for anything less would be window dressing Islam.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">khamenei_ir: Leader in Palestine conf.: Today is martyrdom anniv. of African American Muslim leader <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MalcolmX?src=hash">#MalcolmX</a>. Let’s recite Surah Fatihah f…</p>— Mehr News Agency (@MehrnewsCom) <a href="https://twitter.com/MehrnewsCom/status/833944687404806144">21 February 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Ameen
 
It would have been interesting to see had he lived would he have remained a Muslim. Considering how Islam condones slavery and that his ancestors were sold to the west by Arab Muslims, it would have been a great challenge for a man known for introspection and challenging his beliefs as well as the status quo.

Not to forget the treatment of Black Africans throughout the Muslim world.
 
Race problem will not go away anytime soon Islam or not.

If you were presented a choice of a white girl vs a Dalit girl, will you marry the Dalit girl?

Preaching is fine. Nobody will follow it.

The only way it can be eliminated is when races start to mix with each other and there will be no pure of anything. It will be an extremely slow process which can take decades or even a couple of centuries.

Americans are mixing at a far more speedier pace than any country in the world. There are tons of bi-racial people here. They have better chances of achieving equal society than Arabs (who have been practicing and following Islam since 7th century).
 
Race problem will not go away anytime soon Islam or not.

If you were presented a choice of a white girl vs a Dalit girl, will you marry the Dalit girl?

Preaching is fine. Nobody will follow it.

The only way it can be eliminated is when races start to mix with each other and there will be no pure of anything. It will be an extremely slow process which can take decades or even a couple of centuries.

Americans are mixing at a far more speedier pace than any country in the world. There are tons of bi-racial people here. They have better chances of achieving equal society than Arabs (who have been practicing and following Islam since 7th century).

I wouldn't have any issue with marrying a Dalit girl.

I think such primitively tribalistic thinking is absurd.
 
It would have been interesting to see had he lived would he have remained a Muslim. Considering how Islam condones slavery and that his ancestors were sold to the west by Arab Muslims, it would have been a great challenge for a man known for introspection and challenging his beliefs as well as the status quo.

Not to forget the treatment of Black Africans throughout the Muslim world.

In that quote it mentions that he has travelled throughout the Muslim world and his experience seems to be mostly positive. But of course that was back in the 60's when America was still coming out of apartheid so in comparison the the Muslim world probably seemed far less racist.
 
In that quote it mentions that he has travelled throughout the Muslim world and his experience seems to be mostly positive. But of course that was back in the 60's when America was still coming out of apartheid so in comparison the the Muslim world probably seemed far less racist.

He didn't travel the Muslim world as merely a black man but as dignitary being hosted by Kings and Presidents and hence was given a highly sanitised view of the Islamic world.

The Arab establishment saw him as an effective vessel to evaglise Islam in the states and hence give them more influence in the country.

However, as someone has read a fair bit on Malcom X, he made no statements concerning the racial prejudice in these countries, Islams endorsement of slavery nor the Muslim slave masters who facilitated the slave trade.
 
Americans are mixing at a far more speedier pace than any country in the world. There are tons of bi-racial people here. They have better chances of achieving equal society than Arabs (who have been practicing and following Islam since 7th century).

I would say Western Europe.
 
He didn't travel the Muslim world as merely a black man but as dignitary being hosted by Kings and Presidents and hence was given a highly sanitised view of the Islamic world.

The Arab establishment saw him as an effective vessel to evaglise Islam in the states and hence give them more influence in the country.

However, as someone has read a fair bit on Malcom X, he made no statements concerning the racial prejudice in these countries, Islams endorsement of slavery nor the Muslim slave masters who facilitated the slave trade.

I imagine being treated as a dignitary by Kings and Presidents in Muslim countries probably seemed like quite a luxury compared to being seen as an inferior citizen in his own country the USA of the 60's where blacks were made to attend separate schools and use separate facilities from the whites of that era. Hence his quote:

America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered ‘white’—but the ‘white’ attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color.
 
He didn't travel the Muslim world as merely a black man but as dignitary being hosted by Kings and Presidents and hence was given a highly sanitised view of the Islamic world.

The Arab establishment saw him as an effective vessel to evaglise Islam in the states and hence give them more influence in the country.

However, as someone has read a fair bit on Malcom X, he made no statements concerning the racial prejudice in these countries, Islams endorsement of slavery nor the Muslim slave masters who facilitated the slave trade.

Malcolm X was an intelligent man, he didn't confuse the actions of Africans to the principles of the religion. He was very critical of black people in America , so im sure he had no issues with criticising Africans either if he wanted to.

As for slavery in Islam it's not even comparable to the western industrial slave trade.
 
I imagine being treated as a dignitary by Kings and Presidents in Muslim countries probably seemed like quite a luxury compared to being seen as an inferior citizen in his own country the USA of the 60's where blacks were made to attend separate schools and use separate facilities from the whites of that era. Hence his quote:

But that wasn't the treatment for the average black man in Arabia.

Even the USA treated visiting African dignitaries with respect during segregation. They explained the hypocrisy of this stance by classing it as a domestic issue which needed time to resolve.

Malcom X referred to this hypocrisy when criticising other countries, especially African states for their differing stance on apartheid South Africa and USA.
 
Malcolm X was an intelligent man, he didn't confuse the actions of Africans to the principles of the religion. He was very critical of black people in America , so im sure he had no issues with criticising Africans either if he wanted to.

As for slavery in Islam it's not even comparable to the western industrial slave trade.

Where has anyone mentioned Africans and their practice of religion?

So you think Malcolm X would have been fine with "Islamic slavery?".

Are you denying the role of Arabs in the East African slave trade?
 
Where has anyone mentioned Africans and their practice of religion?

So you think Malcolm X would have been fine with "Islamic slavery?".

Are you denying the role of Arabs in the East African slave trade?

Of course he would have because it's not even close to being the same.

Arabs, Africans, Whites all played a role in the industrial slave trade, what is the point here?
 
But that wasn't the treatment for the average black man in Arabia.

Even the USA treated visiting African dignitaries with respect during segregation. They explained the hypocrisy of this stance by classing it as a domestic issue which needed time to resolve.

Malcom X referred to this hypocrisy when criticising other countries, especially African states for their differing stance on apartheid South Africa and USA.

I respect your opinion I'm sure you know a lot about Malcolm X and what his views were, I'm just going off his actual quotes from his autobiography rather than third hand supposition and what he actually said was:

"America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered ‘white’—but the ‘white’ attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color."
 
Of course he would have because it's not even close to being the same.

Arabs, Africans, Whites all played a role in the industrial slave trade, what is the point here?

So Malcom X, the champion of civil liberties would have endorsed slavery. Can you please provide anything proof that would hint at this?

The point is how would he have reconciled his faith when it endorsed slavery?

He never commented on the discrimination those of African origin are subjected to throughout the Muslim world.

Are you suggesting the Muslim world is a racial Utopia?
 
I respect your opinion I'm sure you know a lot about Malcolm X and what his views were, I'm just going off his actual quotes from his autobiography rather than third hand supposition and what he actually said was:

"America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered ‘white’—but the ‘white’ attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color."

I have read his autobiography, it is one of all time favourite books. A true story of redemption.

You can continually regurgitate that quote but it doesn't address slavery in Islam nor the treatment of blacks in "Muslim lands" throughout history.

He saw Islam as a vehicle to shake off the shackles imposed on his people by centuries of subjugation, which taught them that they were inferior. It was the opportunity for social reform rather than a religious awakening.

Also, even if we scrutinise that very quote. The standout terms are "those that would be considered white" not Caucasian. There is great diversity in skin tone and appearance especially in the Arab world, but one's Arab ethnicity trumps that. This is not the case for Africans in the Arab world.

If you have any evidence the contrary please feel free to share.
 
I have read his autobiography, it is one of all time favourite books. A true story of redemption.

You can continually regurgitate that quote but it doesn't address slavery in Islam nor the treatment of blacks in "Muslim lands" throughout history.

He saw Islam as a vehicle to shake off the shackles imposed on his people by centuries of subjugation, which taught them that they were inferior. It was the opportunity for social reform rather than a religious awakening.

Also, even if we scrutinise that very quote. The standout terms are "those that would be considered white" not Caucasian. There is great diversity in skin tone and appearance especially in the Arab world, but one's Arab ethnicity trumps that. This is not the case for Africans in the Arab world.

If you have any evidence the contrary please feel free to share.


How would have he have seen Asian rule in places like Kenya and Uganda do you feel?
 
How would have he have seen Asian rule in places like Kenya and Uganda do you feel?

It's difficult to say.

My heart would like me to believe that he would have championed equality and racial harmony. But I think he would have described it as inevitable consequence of European colonisation, which in many ways it was. A system skewed to keep the natives subjugated and for disharmony to be continually fermented.

In many former colonies they may have dropped the term "colony" but they have simply replaced the European overlords with oligarchs and the exploitation continues.
 
So Malcom X, the champion of civil liberties would have endorsed slavery. Can you please provide anything proof that would hint at this?

The point is how would he have reconciled his faith when it endorsed slavery?

We know he held Islam in his esteem and believed it was totally against racism. He wasn't an ignorant man so if he felt slavery in Islam was wrong he would have mentioned it. This is enough for me.

There was no need to reconcile anything as I've mentioned already slavery in Islam is very different to Atlantic slave trade. The term 'slavery' itself is not compatible with what Islam teaches. You should read upon the differences.

He never commented on the discrimination those of African origin are subjected to throughout the Muslim world.

Are you suggesting the Muslim world is a racial Utopia?

Of course not, no ethnic people or religious denomination were ever free of racism but Islam is. What Muslims do is not necessarily evidence of Islam teaches.
 
I have read his autobiography, it is one of all time favourite books. A true story of redemption.

You can continually regurgitate that quote but it doesn't address slavery in Islam nor the treatment of blacks in "Muslim lands" throughout history.

He saw Islam as a vehicle to shake off the shackles imposed on his people by centuries of subjugation, which taught them that they were inferior. It was the opportunity for social reform rather than a religious awakening.

Also, even if we scrutinise that very quote. The standout terms are "those that would be considered white" not Caucasian. There is great diversity in skin tone and appearance especially in the Arab world, but one's Arab ethnicity trumps that. This is not the case for Africans in the Arab world.

If you have any evidence the contrary please feel free to share.


Your points seem to have formed by a telegraph article I read expressing the same views
They too were fond of his skills as an orator and fight and self educated knowledge

It's an interesting argument
Maybe this is the place to discuss whether Mohammed Ali was racist towards Joe Frazier and an anti Semite too
 
It's difficult to say.

My heart would like me to believe that he would have championed equality and racial harmony. But I think he would have described it as inevitable consequence of European colonisation, which in many ways it was. A system skewed to keep the natives subjugated and for disharmony to be continually fermented.

In many former colonies they may have dropped the term "colony" but they have simply replaced the European overlords with oligarchs and the exploitation continues.

Nice honest answer
I wasn't expecting that

The Malcolm x place in black history has been marginalised IMO and fans of Malcolm x are often asked what they know of other black activists going back centuries
Again it's the beauty of Malcolm x that he populised a just struggle against oppression and did with the right approach and not with the violence or language that would have him labelled as inferior and by knowing Malcolm x I'm sure we will read into other men,both black and white who fought against slavery
 
Your points seem to have formed by a telegraph article I read expressing the same views
They too were fond of his skills as an orator and fight and self educated knowledge

It's an interesting argument
Maybe this is the place to discuss whether Mohammed Ali was racist towards Joe Frazier and an anti Semite too

I have never read the telegraph article.

I first read his autobiography 20 years ago during a difficult period and found it truly inspiring.

I'm more than happy to discuss the Ali issue, as it is far more layered than Ali simply being racist or anti-Semitic and is another example of a man trying to reconcile conflicting beliefs and emotions.
 
I have never read the telegraph article.

I first read his autobiography 20 years ago during a difficult period and found it truly inspiring.

I'm more than happy to discuss the Ali issue, as it is far more layered than Ali simply being racist or anti-Semitic and is another example of a man trying to reconcile conflicting beliefs and emotions.

I read it about 16 years ago and read it again a few times

TBH it didn't inspire me at the time or even move me

I was more the type that would get a reaction or prove a point by doing something controversial then by reasoned debate and mike Tyson/Tupac shaker appealed to me far more than Mohammed Ali/Malcolm x
 
We know he held Islam in his esteem and believed it was totally against racism. He wasn't an ignorant man so if he felt slavery in Islam was wrong he would have mentioned it. This is enough for me.

There was no need to reconcile anything as I've mentioned already slavery in Islam is very different to Atlantic slave trade. The term 'slavery' itself is not compatible with what Islam teaches. You should read upon the differences.



Of course not, no ethnic people or religious denomination were ever free of racism but Islam is. What Muslims do is not necessarily evidence of Islam teaches.

He held it in high esteem because of its ability to produce social reform with the context of the African American. Not because of any religious awakening. He also "religiously" once believed in white devils who were made by a scientist named Yakub. But he was always willing to change his views once new information came to light.

I am more than well read up on slavery in Islam and in the west. It is pertinent to ask how a champion of CIVIL LIBERTIES would reconcile with that.

Malcom X wasn't critcal of Christianity but of its application in America which used it to promote racial superiority and indoctrinated pacificity among the black population. From that we can see he didn't judge the religion but its followers. Hence, the same would apply to his interpretation of the Muslim world and the role played by the Arab slave masters in the East African slave trade, the west African slave trade, the Barbary slave trade and the Atlantic slave trade, along with Islams endorsement of slavery.
 
He held it in high esteem because of its ability to produce social reform with the context of the African American. Not because of any religious awakening. He also "religiously" once believed in white devils who were made by a scientist named Yakub. But he was always willing to change his views once new information came to light.

I am more than well read up on slavery in Islam and in the west. It is pertinent to ask how a champion of CIVIL LIBERTIES would reconcile with that.

Malcom X wasn't critcal of Christianity but of its application in America which used it to promote racial superiority and indoctrinated pacificity among the black population. From that we can see he didn't judge the religion but its followers. Hence, the same would apply to his interpretation of the Muslim world and the role played by the Arab slave masters in the East African slave trade, the west African slave trade, the Barbary slave trade and the Atlantic slave trade, along with Islams endorsement of slavery.


I would compare the rise of Malcolm x with the Mamluks both in Egypt and Delhi sultanate

And like the mamluks , Obama did become president of the u.s
 
Malcolm certainly got a blinkered view of Saudi which hadnt abolished slavery until.1962. Also a common word used to for Black people in many Arab countries is Abeed or slave. the idea of Islam or Christianity being a liberatinh religion for A Black Man is laughable in the historical context. As the Arab Slave trade lasted for 1300 years and heavily involved enslavement of Africans. Racism against Blacks in the Arab World isnt some European construct but was developed well before European powers started to dominate the African slave trade. In the 60s America context adopting Islam was seen as a rebellion against white America which is how the Nation came about. Hajj might be a time where Muslims of all races are intermingling but that doesnt mean a a lot of the Arab-Mslim World doesnt suffer from huge issues to do with racism
 
Malcolm certainly got a blinkered view of Saudi which hadnt abolished slavery until.1962. Also a common word used to for Black people in many Arab countries is Abeed or slave. the idea of Islam or Christianity being a liberatinh religion for A Black Man is laughable in the historical context. As the Arab Slave trade lasted for 1300 years and heavily involved enslavement of Africans. Racism against Blacks in the Arab World isnt some European construct but was developed well before European powers started to dominate the African slave trade. In the 60s America context adopting Islam was seen as a rebellion against white America which is how the Nation came about. Hajj might be a time where Muslims of all races are intermingling but that doesnt mean a a lot of the Arab-Mslim World doesnt suffer from huge issues to do with racism

Well researched points Adil

Hopefully one day we will see a black president in Asia and the Middle East too
 
I would compare the rise of Malcolm x with the Mamluks both in Egypt and Delhi sultanate

And like the mamluks , Obama did become president of the u.s

But Obama doesn't represent the struggle nor rise of the average African American. He didn't excel against a system skewed against him at every level.

Obama probably had more advantages than the average American regardless of race. That's not to say he didn't have obstacles to overcome but they are nothing compared to what average African Americans have to face.
 
[MENTION=10028]chacha kashmiri[/MENTION] a black president hasnt solved racism towards blacks and minorities in a place like America. But a progression towards a culture that looks beyond tribalism and ethnicity and religion in the Arab world would be a start to tackling racism there not just towards Black people but Asians too who are treated disgracefully.
 
But Obama doesn't represent the struggle nor rise of the average African American. He didn't excel against a system skewed against him at every level.

Obama probably had more advantages than the average American regardless of race. That's not to say he didn't have obstacles to overcome but they are nothing compared to what average African Americans have to face.

I've not read his autobiography but I'm assuming his parents were middle class and he had decent schooling and went to an elite uni etc etc etc
But he was still black and would have difficulties just becoming a senator I would have thought
There's people around like Ben Carson who have not become as succesful as Obama
 
He held it in high esteem because of its ability to produce social reform with the context of the African American. Not because of any religious awakening. He also "religiously" once believed in white devils who were made by a scientist named Yakub. But he was always willing to change his views once new information came to light.

I am more than well read up on slavery in Islam and in the west. It is pertinent to ask how a champion of CIVIL LIBERTIES would reconcile with that.

Malcom X wasn't critcal of Christianity but of its application in America which used it to promote racial superiority and indoctrinated pacificity among the black population. From that we can see he didn't judge the religion but its followers. Hence, the same would apply to his interpretation of the Muslim world and the role played by the Arab slave masters in the East African slave trade, the west African slave trade, the Barbary slave trade and the Atlantic slave trade, along with Islams endorsement of slavery.

The religious awakening did happen after his visit to Mecca. Almost all of his previous stances were altered or disregarded when he realised he was finally on the true path rather than being a prominent leader in a militant, racist cult. Being a man of high integrity and someone who would face facts, I have no reason to doubt X being the man who is was , discussed the concept of a slave in Islamic laws. I cannot see any reason why he would have ignored the issue of slavery if he felt it was on par with the Atlantic slave trade. Maybe there are writings which explain his views on this subject but I've not come across any.

I cannot disagree he judged religion often by the behaviour of it's followers , as in Mecca this is what inspired him to make the change he did. However X saw something in Islam and it's followers to make a bold statement on the biggest issue of his life, racism not being synonymous with Islam at all. This doesn't mean he thought all Muslims had no racist tendencies, so to me this implies he knew this religion (Islam) has principles which not all it's followers adhere to.
 
[MENTION=10028]chacha kashmiri[/MENTION] a black president hasnt solved racism towards blacks and minorities in a place like America. But a progression towards a culture that looks beyond tribalism and ethnicity and religion in the Arab world would be a start to tackling racism there not just towards Black people but Asians too who are treated disgracefully.

There's been bad leaders over time including yazeed, some other of the ummayads, harun rashid was controversial too , the fatamids also had their own controversies too
You could argue after the rashidun caliphate the caliph became a succession of family owned leaderships who didn't rule fairly
Similar maybe to the alawites in Syria who as a minority contain the majority of Syria

There is set to be reform in both Qatar and UAE in regard to labour reform
Hopefully the Pakistani and Bangladeshi government are helping to sort out working conditions abroad for their natives
 
How many centuries do you think that will take?

Most of the middle east is led by dictators , coming out of the same family.

But in 2007 Mecca had it's first black Imam(modern history), Sheik Adil. This was a great step forward.
 
Most of the middle east is led by dictators , coming out of the same family.

But in 2007 Mecca had it's first black Imam(modern history), Sheik Adil. This was a great step forward.

Yeah really "great".

I think we have very different interpretations of progress and equality.

I'm not one to be fooled by photo ops.
 
The religious awakening did happen after his visit to Mecca. Almost all of his previous stances were altered or disregarded when he realised he was finally on the true path rather than being a prominent leader in a militant, racist cult. Being a man of high integrity and someone who would face facts, I have no reason to doubt X being the man who is was , discussed the concept of a slave in Islamic laws. I cannot see any reason why he would have ignored the issue of slavery if he felt it was on par with the Atlantic slave trade. Maybe there are writings which explain his views on this subject but I've not come across any.

I cannot disagree he judged religion often by the behaviour of it's followers , as in Mecca this is what inspired him to make the change he did. However X saw something in Islam and it's followers to make a bold statement on the biggest issue of his life, racism not being synonymous with Islam at all. This doesn't mean he thought all Muslims had no racist tendencies, so to me this implies he knew this religion (Islam) has principles which not all it's followers adhere to.

His views were already changing prior to the sojourn, as his relationship to the Nation and to its leader had become strained, as he was seen as overshadowing the organisation.

Please provide a single reference to Malcom X referring to Islamic slave laws. Just one.

Your spiel about Islam and race loses relevance when the same can be applied to Christianity. Is Christianity intrinsically racist or were the actions of its followers.


You can continue your mental gymnastics but I find it abhorrent that you are endorsing slavery and justifying by stratifying levels of it.

The bottom line is striping someone of their civil liberties and having ownership over another is totally unjustifiable.
 
[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] a black Imam now maybe in 10 years a woman can hit the road in a car by herself.
 
Race problem will not go away anytime soon Islam or not.

If you were presented a choice of a white girl vs a Dalit girl, will you marry the Dalit girl?

Preaching is fine. Nobody will follow it.

The only way it can be eliminated is when races start to mix with each other and there will be no pure of anything. It will be an extremely slow process which can take decades or even a couple of centuries.

Americans are mixing at a far more speedier pace than any country in the world. There are tons of bi-racial people here. They have better chances of achieving equal society than Arabs (who have been practicing and following Islam since 7th century).


Question - why pure races a bad thing? Why will a world only made up of one race of mixed browns be better than a world made up on distinct Whites, Browns, Blacks?
 
on a core level both Islam and Christianity preach Universality and proclaim to be the truth for all mankind regardless of your race rather their dichotomy is of believers and unbelievers . But religions have developed over time in the different cultures they have mixed with which is why you can get groups like the KKK a white supremacist anti semitic Christian group who claim to be followers of a religion based on the teachings of a Middle Eastern Jew.
 
[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] a black Imam now maybe in 10 years a woman can hit the road in a car by herself.

Don't get too carried away.

She has to be allowed to step out of her front door first.
 
His views were already changing prior to the sojourn, as his relationship to the Nation and to its leader had become strained, as he was seen as overshadowing the organisation.

Please provide a single reference to Malcom X referring to Islamic slave laws. Just one.

Your spiel about Islam and race loses relevance when the same can be applied to Christianity. Is Christianity intrinsically racist or were the actions of its followers.


You can continue your mental gymnastics but I find it abhorrent that you are endorsing slavery and justifying by stratifying levels of it.

The bottom line is striping someone of their civil liberties and having ownership over another is totally unjustifiable.

His views on the nation were changing but his whole mentality changed after his visit to Mecca.

I've just told you I've not read anything on his views of slavery on Islam, probably because there are no writings on this subject. Maybe you can provide some evidence X ignored 'Islamic' Slavery ?

Christianity is nothing like Islam, there are plenty of texts to shows it has racist elements.

I accept and agree with the Islamic laws regarding 'slaves' because slavery in Islam is far from modern western slavery. It's something which troubled me but after being given evidences, it makes sense for that time. As a Muslim if I find any single issue wrong with Islam when it comes to injustice I will leave the faith , so far I haven't which is why I remain a Muslim and have faith in it's principles.

What religion if any do you follow?
 
[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] a black Imam now maybe in 10 years a woman can hit the road in a car by herself.

Maybe if you wrote to the British government and asked them why they installed such a family, why they continue to support it along with their Americans pals, they might make a drastic policy change which will remove them from office, so women can start the car :bumble
 
[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] the British never installed the House of Saud they initially backed the more Sharif of Mecca Hussein bin Ali but when he died Ibn Saud rose to power and the British supported him since them he British govt arent responsible for them not letting women drive now are they. They maintain relations with them for strategic and financial reasons. The British never came up with Wahhabi ideology that places women in shackles nor did it instruct them to not let women drive or to not let them leave the house without a guardian. The Saudi establishment and clerics did that all by themselves. Its upto the Saudis to reform their own society. Britain and America can but give gentle persuasion.
 
His views on the nation were changing but his whole mentality changed after his visit to Mecca.

I've just told you I've not read anything on his views of slavery on Islam, probably because there are no writings on this subject. Maybe you can provide some evidence X ignored 'Islamic' Slavery ?

Christianity is nothing like Islam, there are plenty of texts to shows it has racist elements.

I accept and agree with the Islamic laws regarding 'slaves' because slavery in Islam is far from modern western slavery. It's something which troubled me but after being given evidences, it makes sense for that time. As a Muslim if I find any single issue wrong with Islam when it comes to injustice I will leave the faith , so far I haven't which is why I remain a Muslim and have faith in it's principles.

What religion if any do you follow?

He had totally abandoned belief in the doctrine of the nation prior to the his travels.

So you have absolutely nothing to base your assumption on.

What we do know are his views on slavery and in civil liberties and how he was totally against the exploitation and subjugation of people.

What is also well known is that his study of Islam was at a rudimentary level, as he only truly started to read the Quran not long before his death. So, do we even know if he was aware of the Islamic slave practice?

Please provide references which show the inherent racism of Christianity rather than its application which is so different from Islam.

I could care less what you believe but when you try to justify the exploitation of people I certainly will take issue with that. I recall how you previously justified the exploitation of migrant workers in your beloved Middle East, so I'm noticing a trend.

You claim it made sense for the time but I bet you believe Islam is for eternity. Please make up your mind.

Why don't you ask a slave if his situation makes sense to him.

I find any individual who espouses slavery as someone totally devoid of any morality.
 
He had totally abandoned belief in the doctrine of the nation prior to the his travels.

So you have absolutely nothing to base your assumption on.

What we do know are his views on slavery and in civil liberties and how he was totally against the exploitation and subjugation of people.

What is also well known is that his study of Islam was at a rudimentary level, as he only truly started to read the Quran not long before his death. So, do we even know if he was aware of the Islamic slave practice?

Please provide references which show the inherent racism of Christianity rather than its application which is so different from Islam.

I could care less what you believe but when you try to justify the exploitation of people I certainly will take issue with that. I recall how you previously justified the exploitation of migrant workers in your beloved Middle East, so I'm noticing a trend.

You claim it made sense for the time but I bet you believe Islam is for eternity. Please make up your mind.

Why don't you ask a slave if his situation makes sense to him.

I find any individual who espouses slavery as someone totally devoid of any morality.

I will reply to this when I have time later but in the meantime before you pass judgement, not that what you think matters at all , please explain in detail why accepting 'slavery' in Islamic doctrine makes anyone including the Prophet(pbuh) devoid of any morality. Thanks
 
I will reply to this when I have time later but in the meantime before you pass judgement, not that what you think matters at all , please explain in detail why accepting 'slavery' in Islamic doctrine makes anyone including the Prophet(pbuh) devoid of any morality. Thanks

It strips one of their basic right of freedom and is the exploitation of another.

That's just to start.
 
[MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION] are you saying that Malcolm X was unaware?

When he was mingling with Muslims in far lands, he felt he had seat at the table as much as any other Muslim, whilst at home he was a second class citizen. Slavery had been abolished in both places,
 
[MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION] are you saying that Malcolm X was unaware?

When he was mingling with Muslims in far lands, he felt he had seat at the table as much as any other Muslim, whilst at home he was a second class citizen. Slavery had been abolished in both places,

He had a seat at the table of Kings and presidents as their guest, just as African leaders had when they visited the White House.

But neither reflected the ground realities of the average black man.

Are you saving there wasn't any discrimination against Africans in the Muslim and that there isn't now?

Are you saying he was aware that Islam endorses slavery?
 
Never understood why Malcom always needed a hand of organized religion on his head for him to have right opinions,there were already examples of Karl Marx or other atheists ,probably because those principles in America would label him a commie.

Malcom was a smart man but don't understand how religion can ever end any problems related to discrimination,over the years it will always end up in some or other form of politics or discrimination.
 
That's not the standout term for me, I'll highlight what I thought were the standout terms how I read it:



America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered ‘white’—but the ‘white’ attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color.


It seems to be a very positive experience of his travels in the Muslim world. I can understand that you might want to imagine what he might have thought 50 years down the line to fit in with your own narrative (whatever that is) but I don't see what you see when you read that quote.
 
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Never understood why Malcom always needed a hand of organized religion on his head for him to have right opinions,there were already examples of Karl Marx or other atheists ,probably because those principles in America would label him a commie.

Malcom was a smart man but don't understand how religion can ever end any problems related to discrimination,over the years it will always end up in some or other form of politics or discrimination.

I think you have to bear in mind that Malcolm X's story was from the 1960's, a time when black Americans were treated like lepers by the whites in America, perhaps he saw something in Islam which gave black Americans some sense of self discipline and worth. In fact his views were pretty racist in themselves, it seems he changed those views on travelling the world and related his visits to Muslim countries as one of the reasons which is highlighted in the quote from the OP article.

As to why people need religion as a hand on their head to have right opinions, it's a strange one. That was half a century ago, yet today even countries like India which are rising as future superpowers are in thrall to a leader of a party which is based on superstitious religious revivalism.
 
He had a seat at the table of Kings and presidents as their guest, just as African leaders had when they visited the White House.

But neither reflected the ground realities of the average black man.

Are you saving there wasn't any discrimination against Africans in the Muslim and that there isn't now?

Are you saying he was aware that Islam endorses slavery?

I never thought he was such a celebrity that he wined and dined with kings only...

I don't know much about his life to say whether he was or was not aware.

But what he did see was black and non black mixing which was not case back home. Back home, Blacks and whites didn't pray together, they had separate churches.... I believe he saw a black man lead haj ... which blew him away.

I am not sure what the point is to this thread.... are you saying that he was unaware and had he been aware, he wouldn't have become a Muslim?

The last haj sermon is quite clear, Arab, non Arab, black or white, everyone is the same.
 
I have read his autobiography, it is one of all time favourite books. A true story of redemption.

You can continually regurgitate that quote but it doesn't address slavery in Islam nor the treatment of blacks in "Muslim lands" throughout history.

He saw Islam as a vehicle to shake off the shackles imposed on his people by centuries of subjugation, which taught them that they were inferior. It was the opportunity for social reform rather than a religious awakening.

Also, even if we scrutinise that very quote. The standout terms are "those that would be considered white" not Caucasian. There is great diversity in skin tone and appearance especially in the Arab world, but one's Arab ethnicity trumps that. This is not the case for Africans in the Arab world.

If you have any evidence the contrary please feel free to share.
[MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION], my post#51 was in reply to this, I forgot to include the quote so hope that clears it up.

Interestingly I have just been reading the news today about the black convert who blew himself up in Iraq attacking the Shia militias advancing on Mosul in Iraq. Born as Ron Fiddler he was given the name the name Abu Zakariya al-Britani by Isis.

MAIN-Abu-Zakariya-al-Britani.jpg

Seems he travelled extensively in Muslim countries including Pakistan and Afghanistan before ending up in Iraq and his second wife was named Shukee Begum which sounds like a Bengali name.

While the Isis militants are not really comparable to a great orator like Malcolm X, it does suggest that whatever other prejudices the circles the name Abu Zakariya al-Britani mixed in suffered from, racism probably wasn't one of them.
 
I think you have to bear in mind that Malcolm X's story was from the 1960's, a time when black Americans were treated like lepers by the whites in America, perhaps he saw something in Islam which gave black Americans some sense of self discipline and worth. In fact his views were pretty racist in themselves, it seems he changed those views on travelling the world and related his visits to Muslim countries as one of the reasons which is highlighted in the quote from the OP article.

As to why people need religion as a hand on their head to have right opinions, it's a strange one. That was half a century ago, yet today even countries like India which are rising as future superpowers are in thrall to a leader of a party which is based on superstitious religious revivalism.

That self discipline is what Europe saw in Christianity or atleast their kings and converted everyone,and about Modi and India i mentioned specifically that in the second para that it leads to discrimination, politicizing of issues.

What this says is imho is that there is a time for every thought(religion,philosophy) and as time progresses one needs to evolve and move out of it.
 
That self discipline is what Europe saw in Christianity or atleast their kings and converted everyone,and about Modi and India i mentioned specifically that in the second para that it leads to discrimination, politicizing of issues.

What this says is imho is that there is a time for every thought(religion,philosophy) and as time progresses one needs to evolve and move out of it.

Not sure what that means when it's translated, but I think I agree.
 
That's not the standout term for me, I'll highlight what I thought were the standout terms how I read it:



America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered ‘white’—but the ‘white’ attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color.


It seems to be a very positive experience of his travels in the Muslim world. I can understand that you might want to imagine what he might have thought 50 years down the line to fit in with your own narrative (whatever that is) but I don't see what you see when you read that quote.

How long did he travel through the non-African Muslim world and how long did he spend in each of these countries?

Which Caucasians is he referring to?

What is the narrative that I am spinning?

I don't derive a narrative from a single quote. That would be the height of ignorance. I have read beyond that quote.

Nuance, context and evidence are not things one should overlook purely to fit ones preconceived ideas.
 
[MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION], my post#51 was in reply to this, I forgot to include the quote so hope that clears it up.

Interestingly I have just been reading the news today about the black convert who blew himself up in Iraq attacking the Shia militias advancing on Mosul in Iraq. Born as Ron Fiddler he was given the name the name Abu Zakariya al-Britani by Isis.

View attachment 72896

Seems he travelled extensively in Muslim countries including Pakistan and Afghanistan before ending up in Iraq and his second wife was named Shukee Begum which sounds like a Bengali name.

While the Isis militants are not really comparable to a great orator like Malcolm X, it does suggest that whatever other prejudices the circles the name Abu Zakariya al-Britani mixed in suffered from, racism probably wasn't one of them.

That settles it then.

Which groups did he travel with Pakistan and Afghanistan?

I guess this shows how a black man fully integrated in to mainstream non-black Muslim society and excelled.

Or is it an example of fringe groups in desperate need of man power willing to accept all resources?

But let's apply your logic further. The election of Obama must mean the US is a racially harmonious utopia?
 
I never thought he was such a celebrity that he wined and dined with kings only...

I don't know much about his life to say whether he was or was not aware.

But what he did see was black and non black mixing which was not case back home. Back home, Blacks and whites didn't pray together, they had separate churches.... I believe he saw a black man lead haj ... which blew him away.

I am not sure what the point is to this thread.... are you saying that he was unaware and had he been aware, he wouldn't have become a Muslim?

The last haj sermon is quite clear, Arab, non Arab, black or white, everyone is the same.

Please give examples of his interactions with those interactions, rather than what you feel.

Is the Hajj representative of the day to day interactions and customs of the Muslim world?

I don't know nor care whether he would have or not become a Muslim. The pertinent question is how he would have reconciled racism towards blacks in the Muslim world and Islam's endorsement of slavery while he championed civil rights back home?

We do know how critical he was of the hypocrisy shown by African leaders attacking South African apartheid whilst staying mute on the issue of American segregation laws.
 
How long did he travel through the non-African Muslim world and how long did he spend in each of these countries?

Which Caucasians is he referring to?

What is the narrative that I am spinning?

I don't derive a narrative from a single quote. That would be the height of ignorance. I have read beyond that quote.

Nuance, context and evidence are not things one should overlook purely to fit ones preconceived ideas.

You are the one who is questioning whether he would have remained a Muslim, and also correlating racism with the Islamic world. As that has never been his premise, I think the onus is on you to make your case. His autobiography is there for the rest of us and his quotes as far as I know have never mentioned any of the negatives you have speculated about.

For the rest of us we can only go by his deeds and words.
 
You are the one who is questioning whether he would have remained a Muslim, and also correlating racism with the Islamic world. As that has never been his premise, I think the onus is on you to make your case. His autobiography is there for the rest of us and his quotes as far as I know have never mentioned any of the negatives you have speculated about.

For the rest of us we can only go by his deeds and words.

Where have I questioned whether he would have remained a Muslim? I have clearly stated that he never addressed the issue of slavery in Islam and had he lived he would have eventually have to. I never once said what his conclusions would be.

Is there no racism in the Muslim world?

I have read his autobiography and he clearly states his study of Islam was at a rudimentary stage, and how he rued wasting years on the Nation's doctrine. As you clearly have a thorough understanding of his autobiography you should be able to refute this if I am wrong.

It is clear that he saw Islam as a means of reppropiation for the African American in order to free them of centuries of psychological degradation. However, he also saw the The Nation of Islam as that too at one time.

So, as you have extensively researched this subject please give the specific statements of his regarding the treatment of Blacks in non-African Muslim countries with examples, so we can analyse his quotes, or do you draw conclusions in isolation?

Or where his interactions in the Muslim world weren't as a state guest or a visiting lecturer and hence he could make a truly informed conclusion.

Also, please give examples of how he acknowledged the issue of slavery in Islam and how he condoned it.

If you can't then we can but speculate.

Or do you believe that we can draw absolute conclusions on these topics?
 
Where have I questioned whether he would have remained a Muslim? I have clearly stated that he never addressed the issue of slavery in Islam and had he lived he would have eventually have to. I never once said what his conclusions would be.

Is there no racism in the Muslim world?

I have read his autobiography and he clearly states his study of Islam was at a rudimentary stage, and how he rued wasting years on the Nation's doctrine. As you clearly have a thorough understanding of his autobiography you should be able to refute this if I am wrong.

It is clear that he saw Islam as a means of reppropiation for the African American in order to free them of centuries of psychological degradation. However, he also saw the The Nation of Islam as that too at one time.

So, as you have extensively researched this subject please give the specific statements of his regarding the treatment of Blacks in non-African Muslim countries with examples, so we can analyse his quotes, or do you draw conclusions in isolation?

Or where his interactions in the Muslim world weren't as a state guest or a visiting lecturer and hence he could make a truly informed conclusion.

Also, please give examples of how he acknowledged the issue of slavery in Islam and how he condoned it.

If you can't then we can but speculate.

Or do you believe that we can draw absolute conclusions on these topics?

I never claimed to have extensive knowledge of Malcolm X's autobiography, I don't know where you got that idea from. I am like most other casual observers who merely judge him at his word and his deeds. What he would have concluded or questioned had he lived until today I have never really speculated truth be told. It's an interesting conjecture if somewhat pie in the sky. Unfortunately my knowledge is pretty sketchy so can't really offer my speculation.
 
I never claimed to have extensive knowledge of Malcolm X's autobiography, I don't know where you got that idea from. I am like most other casual observers who merely judge him at his word and his deeds. What he would have concluded or questioned had he lived until today I have never really speculated truth be told. It's an interesting conjecture if somewhat pie in the sky. Unfortunately my knowledge is pretty sketchy so can't really offer my speculation.

I personally wouldn't dream of commenting on issues I have no real understanding of. However, in such a context I can see why it would seem pie in the sky. It's a phenomena known as the "Dunning-Kruger" effect.
 
I personally wouldn't dream of commenting on issues I have no real understanding of. However, in such a context I can see why it would seem pie in the sky. It's a phenomena known as the "Dunning-Kruger" effect.

This is why I agree, it's better for you to make the case for your own speculation as to what Malcolm X might have done/thought had he lived today. You having the extensive knowledge on this subject to draw the necessary speculative conclusions.
 
This is why I agree, it's better for you to make the case for your own speculation as to what Malcolm X might have done/thought had he lived today. You having the extensive knowledge on this subject to draw the necessary speculative conclusions.

I have already asked the pertinent questions in the context of the quoted article, as pertaining to racial equality and slavery. The fact that you think a case would need to be made and such questions are "pie in the sky" in the analysis of the article suggests a high level of cognitive dissonance.

You have tried countering those questions by regurgitating the same quote four times and linked a story about an ISIS member as an indication of racial harmony, whilst professing ignorance of the subject matter.
 
I have already asked the pertinent questions in the context of the quoted article, as pertaining to racial equality and slavery. The fact that you think a case would need to be made and such questions are "pie in the sky" in the analysis of the article suggests a high level of cognitive dissonance.

You have tried countering those questions by regurgitating the same quote four times and linked a story about an ISIS member as an indication of racial harmony, whilst professing ignorance of the subject matter.

I haven't tried to counter any questions since they are your musings based on your readings about Malcolm X and you are free to draw your on conclusions. I merely gave his actual quotes from the OP which speak for themselves. I don't see any conflict here.
 
In that quote it mentions that he has travelled throughout the Muslim world and his experience seems to be mostly positive. But of course that was back in the 60's when America was still coming out of apartheid so in comparison the the Muslim world probably seemed far less racist.

I imagine being treated as a dignitary by Kings and Presidents in Muslim countries probably seemed like quite a luxury compared to being seen as an inferior citizen in his own country the USA of the 60's where blacks were made to attend separate schools and use separate facilities from the whites of that era. Hence his quote:

That's not the standout term for me, I'll highlight what I thought were the standout terms how I read it:



America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered ‘white’—but the ‘white’ attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color.


It seems to be a very positive experience of his travels in the Muslim world. I can understand that you might want to imagine what he might have thought 50 years down the line to fit in with your own narrative (whatever that is) but I don't see what you see when you read that quote.

[MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION], my post#51 was in reply to this, I forgot to include the quote so hope that clears it up.

Interestingly I have just been reading the news today about the black convert who blew himself up in Iraq attacking the Shia militias advancing on Mosul in Iraq. Born as Ron Fiddler he was given the name the name Abu Zakariya al-Britani by Isis.

View attachment 72896

Seems he travelled extensively in Muslim countries including Pakistan and Afghanistan before ending up in Iraq and his second wife was named Shukee Begum which sounds like a Bengali name.

While the Isis militants are not really comparable to a great orator like Malcolm X, it does suggest that whatever other prejudices the circles the name Abu Zakariya al-Britani mixed in suffered from, racism probably wasn't one of them.

You are the one who is questioning whether he would have remained a Muslim, and also correlating racism with the Islamic world. As that has never been his premise, I think the onus is on you to make your case. His autobiography is there for the rest of us and his quotes as far as I know have never mentioned any of the negatives you have speculated about.

For the rest of us we can only go by his deeds and words.

I never claimed to have extensive knowledge of Malcolm X's autobiography, I don't know where you got that idea from. I am like most other casual observers who merely judge him at his word and his deeds. What he would have concluded or questioned had he lived until today I have never really speculated truth be told. It's an interesting conjecture if somewhat pie in the sky. Unfortunately my knowledge is pretty sketchy so can't really offer my speculation.

This is why I agree, it's better for you to make the case for your own speculation as to what Malcolm X might have done/thought had he lived today. You having the extensive knowledge on this subject to draw the necessary speculative conclusions.

I haven't tried to counter any questions since they are your musings based on your readings about Malcolm X and you are free to draw your on conclusions. I merely gave his actual quotes from the OP which speak for themselves. I don't see any conflict here.

You've clearly speculated on what his motivations might have been and you have tried to give some feeble examples such as an ISIS member to fit your narrative.

So, quoting a single text in response to the question of dilemma's Malcolm may have faced isn't an attempt to counter, albeit a very crude one?

Or were you using actual quotes from Malcolm X, in explaining your own reasoning, because that would be absurd. So when you stated what Malcolm's motivations were, did you use his quote or your own speculation, based on topic you confess to know little about?
 
You've clearly speculated on what his motivations might have been and you have tried to give some feeble examples such as an ISIS member to fit your narrative.

So, quoting a single text in response to the question of dilemma's Malcolm may have faced isn't an attempt to counter, albeit a very crude one?

Or were you using actual quotes from Malcolm X, in explaining your own reasoning, because that would be absurd. So when you stated what Malcolm's motivations were, did you use his quote or your own speculation, based on topic you confess to know little about?

Why would you think that I was using Malcolm X quotes to explain my own reasoning? I didn't put those quotes in the OP, they were already there. They seem quite self explanatory to me.

But if you want to speculate that he may have felt different in some alternative future where he was alive today, then feel free to do so. The facts and musings are laid out there from all sides, in an imaginary scenario all we can do is ponder what may have been. as they say, history is always the best judge.
 
Why would you think that I was using Malcolm X quotes to explain my own reasoning? I didn't put those quotes in the OP, they were already there. They seem quite self explanatory to me.

But if you want to speculate that he may have felt different in some alternative future where he was alive today, then feel free to do so. The facts and musings are laid out there from all sides, in an imaginary scenario all we can do is ponder what may have been. as they say, history is always the best judge.

You used that quote in response to my question. Why you did this when I never questioned its validity is still yet to be explained.

I never said you used his quotes to explain his reasoning, as I said if you did it would be illogical. You alluded to the futility of speculation hence I have clearly highlighted your speculation about Malcolm's motivations.

They may seem self-explanatory but they were never in question, yet you repeated them four times. Why?

Then you mentioned the ISIS member, why and what relevance did this have.

Both examples show a primative attempt to push a certain narrative devoid of nuance and context. Which ultimately led to subversive attempts by phrases such as "pie in the sky" "imaginary" and "speculative" yet not once substantiating your point.

If you can provide a shred of evidence that suggests that Malcolm was aware of the issues I have raised then this conversation ends unequivocally here and I will whole heartedly concede.

But knowing your track record it's not something I have high hopes for.
 
So [MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION]

Overlooking the sly digs at Islam... which I suspect is the main thrust for you..

Taking your arguments to conclusion then it makes Malcom X either incredibly naive or a hypocrite? Which one is it In your view?
 
So [MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION]

Overlooking the sly digs at Islam... which I suspect is the main thrust for you..

Taking your arguments to conclusion then it makes Malcom X either incredibly naive or a hypocrite? Which one is it In your view?

You can continue with ad hominem attacks, but at least have the decency to substantiate my "sly digs". If you want to have a discussion about Islam feel to open a thread on it and I shall happily contribute. I am well versed in a number of theologies and philosophy to effectively make my point without resorting to underhand tactics. So it is best you keep your psychological projection to yourself.

But ultimately, I have no interest in what people chose to believe but I shall take exception with how they chose act and how the use their "belief system" to undermine and persecute others and try to condone slavery, the exploitation of underage children, implementing blasphemy laws or to white wash prejudice.

To your second point why does it make Malcolm either?

Malcolm's main focus was the social injustice within his own country. He saw Islam as means to bring about reform within the African American community. It should be noted that he didn't see anything inherently racist in Christianity, rather the way it had been appropriated in the West, where it was used to reaffirm the inferiority of the Black race. He saw Islam as a means to break those shackles.

Malcolm's study of mainstream Islam was still in its embryonic stage, something which he states in his autobiography and there is nothing to suggest he was aware of Islam's stance on slavery.

It would be impractical for Malcolm to alienate foreign states that raised his profile and gave him international support and exposure by attacking their domestic problems whilst at the same time as he attempted monumental social reform at home. It's not feasible to attempt to put out too many fires.

But ultimately had he lived he would have to address the issue of racism in the Muslim world. And he could chose to remain silent on the issue and focus on the domestic issue, which wouldn't make him a hypocrite because he can only focus his energy on a finite number of issues in order to achieve tangible results.

Or he could lend his support to groups and people that were fighting prejudice and injustice in those countries.

With regards to Islam and slavery, it is a question that he probably would eventually encounter. And once again there are a number of approaches he could take. He could easily rationalise it by saying that it was a different time and had no modern day role or that he rejected such interpretation or he could change his view on Islam.

Same with the role the Arab and African slave masters played in the Atlantic slave trade.

One thing I hope he wouldn't do, is what has been done in this thread. That being legitimising slavery and whitewashing racism in the Muslim world. That is hypocrisy.

Knowledge is not static and ones thinking evolves, which something Malcolm already exhibited. When it doesn't it's called ignorance.

I'm sorry If your neurosis make these questions difficult to address but it is nothing compared the suffering of those at the receiving end of such thinking.
 
You can continue with ad hominem attacks, but at least have the decency to substantiate my "sly digs". If you want to have a discussion about Islam feel to open a thread on it and I shall happily contribute. I am well versed in a number of theologies and philosophy to effectively make my point without resorting to underhand tactics. So it is best you keep your psychological projection to yourself.

But ultimately, I have no interest in what people chose to believe but I shall take exception with how they chose act and how the use their "belief system" to undermine and persecute others and try to condone slavery, the exploitation of underage children, implementing blasphemy laws or to white wash prejudice.

To your second point why does it make Malcolm either?

Malcolm's main focus was the social injustice within his own country. He saw Islam as means to bring about reform within the African American community. It should be noted that he didn't see anything inherently racist in Christianity, rather the way it had been appropriated in the West, where it was used to reaffirm the inferiority of the Black race. He saw Islam as a means to break those shackles.

Malcolm's study of mainstream Islam was still in its embryonic stage, something which he states in his autobiography and there is nothing to suggest he was aware of Islam's stance on slavery.

It would be impractical for Malcolm to alienate foreign states that raised his profile and gave him international support and exposure by attacking their domestic problems whilst at the same time as he attempted monumental social reform at home. It's not feasible to attempt to put out too many fires.

But ultimately had he lived he would have to address the issue of racism in the Muslim world. And he could chose to remain silent on the issue and focus on the domestic issue, which wouldn't make him a hypocrite because he can only focus his energy on a finite number of issues in order to achieve tangible results.

Or he could lend his support to groups and people that were fighting prejudice and injustice in those countries.

With regards to Islam and slavery, it is a question that he probably would eventually encounter. And once again there are a number of approaches he could take. He could easily rationalise it by saying that it was a different time and had no modern day role or that he rejected such interpretation or he could change his view on Islam.

Same with the role the Arab and African slave masters played in the Atlantic slave trade.

One thing I hope he wouldn't do, is what has been done in this thread. That being legitimising slavery and whitewashing racism in the Muslim world. That is hypocrisy.

Knowledge is not static and ones thinking evolves, which something Malcolm already exhibited. When it doesn't it's called ignorance.

I'm sorry If your neurosis make these questions difficult to address but it is nothing compared the suffering of those at the receiving end of such thinking.

You are huffing and puffing over something ultimately only Malcom x can address.

Where is the legitimisation of slavery and whitewashing of racism in this thread?

Are you married to a black person and faced overt racism?
 
You are huffing and puffing over something ultimately only Malcom x can address.

Where is the legitimisation of slavery and whitewashing of racism in this thread?

Are you married to a black person and faced overt racism?

Is Malcolm the only authority on the matter of equality? And it's very telling that you seem to class racism and slavery as issues to merely huff and puff over.

If you use Malcolm's quote as example of racial equality then aren't these pertinent questions to ask?

Read through the thread and you will see posts in support of slavery and whitewashing of racial discrimination in the Muslim world. It is very indicative that you seem to have totally missed it.

I don't need to "be married to a black person" or have a vested interest to stand for something just. If you do then that says a lot about you, unfortunately.
 
It's a creative exercise I suppose, to take a well known personality and imagine that he might have renounced his beliefs if he lived in a different time. You could probably do the same with most personalities to be fair. Winston Churchill would have been described as a racist today, but he's remembered for his impact in context of the era he lived in.

Would Gandhi have renounced his spinning wheel and Hindu asceticism and donned his lawyer hat instead in today's fast paced world? Would Donald Trump be exactly the same brash, loudmouth oaf if he lived in the 1920's or would he have been bumped off by Al Capone for stepping on his turf?

It's a fair proposition that history's figures may all have turned out different if they lived in another era.
 
It's a creative exercise I suppose, to take a well known personality and imagine that he might have renounced his beliefs if he lived in a different time. You could probably do the same with most personalities to be fair. Winston Churchill would have been described as a racist today, but he's remembered for his impact in context of the era he lived in.

Would Gandhi have renounced his spinning wheel and Hindu asceticism and donned his lawyer hat instead in today's fast paced world? Would Donald Trump be exactly the same brash, loudmouth oaf if he lived in the 1920's or would he have been bumped off by Al Capone for stepping on his turf?

It's a fair proposition that history's figures may all have turned out different if they lived in another era.

This is absolutely not what this thread is about, no matter how you want to spin it.
 
This is absolutely not what this thread is about, no matter how you want to spin it.

I thought I was trying to look at it from your perspective by examining famous personalities through a different lens using time and context. Is that now considered putting a spin on it?
 
It strips one of their basic right of freedom and is the exploitation of another.

That's just to start.

You clearly have no idea of captives when it comes to Islam.

The term slavery is not relevant to the principles of Islam. According to the laws of the faith, you can only keep those captive who are fighting you , ie prisoners of war. In times of war there are 3 options, you can kill the captive, let them go or keep them as prisoners of war. Letting someone go who will attempt to kill you and your family again isn't always an option. In Islam you can't go around capturing free people to keep as slaves. You have to integrate POW's back into society and it is highly recommended to free them when there is no fear of more aggression.

I suggest you learn a lot more before commenting on a subject you claim to know about but have no clue of the basics.
 
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