Mitchell Starc and Wahab Riaz posted identical figures - Explain!

[Junaids]

Australia v Pakistan Test series, 2016-17

Mitchell Starc
145.2 overs
31 maidens
477 runs
14 wickets
Average = 34.07
Strike Rate = 62.2
Economy = 3.28

Wahab Riaz
100 overs
14 maidens
400 runs
11 wickets
Average = 36.36
Strike Rate = 54.5
Economy = 4.00

I have read a lot on this forum about how terrible Wahab Riaz is. Does this mean that Mitchell Starc is just as bad?

They bowled on the same surfaces in the same matches with the same type of balls.

Obviously Josh Hazlewood outbowled both and further reinforced that in Australia you need tall, accurate right-arm fast-medium bowlers above all else.

 

[Slog]

Lmao!

An economy rate of 3.28 vs 4.00 is HUGE!!

For the 100 overs bowled, Wahab gave 72 MORE RUNS than Starc. In what world is this identical

Then you look at the number of maidens. Just 14% of Wahab's over were maidens whereas >21% of Starc's over were maidens!

And obviosly it also shows that Starc can bowl longer spells as he was ripping them at 145kph every spell whereas Wahab was sub 140 in his later spells

I am BAFFLED as to how you can term them as 'identical figures!!'

Yes Hazelwood outbowled them and it reinforces the point that you need a very fit, accurate right arm fast-medium bowler who can bowl economically at <2 an over. Not someone who went for 4+ an over against HBL in the QeA final 2nd innings and bowls at 125kph

 

[Junaids]

Lmao!

An economy rate of 3.28 vs 4.00 is HUGE!!

For the 100 overs bowled, Wahab gave 72 MORE RUNS than Starc. In what world is this identical

Then you look at the number of maidens. Just 14% of Wahab's over were maidens whereas >21% of Starc's over were maidens!

And obviosly it also shows that Starc can bowl longer spells as he was ripping them at 145kph every spell whereas Wahab was sub 140 in his later spells

I am BAFFLED as to how you can term them as 'identical figures!!'

Yes Hazelwood outbowled them and it reinforces the point that you need a very fit, accurate right arm fast-medium bowler who can bowl economically at <2 an over. Not someone who went for 4+ an over against HBL in the QeA final 2nd innings and bowls at 125kph

To be fair, Wahab bowled to Warner and company while Starc bowled to the Tuk Tuk Brigade.

Can you honestly not see how uncannily similar the figures are?

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Lmao!

An economy rate of 3.28 vs 4.00 is HUGE!!

For the 100 overs bowled, Wahab gave 72 MORE RUNS than Starc. In what world is this identical

Then you look at the number of maidens. Just 14% of Wahab's over were maidens whereas >21% of Starc's over were maidens!

And obviosly it also shows that Starc can bowl longer spells as he was ripping them at 145kph every spell whereas Wahab was sub 140 in his later spells

I am BAFFLED as to how you can term them as 'identical figures!!'

Yes Hazelwood outbowled them and it reinforces the point that you need a very fit, accurate right arm fast-medium bowler who can bowl economically at <2 an over. Not someone who went for 4+ an over against HBL in the QeA final 2nd innings and bowls at 125kph

Incorrect. Wahab's pace only dropped at Sydney. He was operating at 145 consistently in the first two.

He also bowled to far superior players of pace.

 

[Slog]

To be fair, Wahab bowled to Warner and company while Starc bowled to the Tuk Tuk Brigade.

Can you honestly not see how uncannily similar the figures are?

That is true. (Warner, Smith etc)

The difference is Starc, regardless of figures, stood up when most needed and delivered the blows in first two tests.

Wahab didnt

 

[Junaids]

Lmao!

'

Yes Hazelwood outbowled them and it reinforces the point that you need a very fit, accurate right arm fast-medium bowler who can bowl economically at <2 an over. Not someone who went for 4+ an over against HBL in the QeA final 2nd innings and bowls at 125kph

When Quinton De Kock, Usman Qadir and Ehsan Adil were turning in stellar performances as Under-19s in South Africa 6 years ago I made clear comments that Ehsan Adil was the key bowler for Australia in 2016-17 and that his training, fitness and exposure needed to be aimed at ensuring that he would be ready.

So whereas Josh Hazlewood has been groomed ever since he was an Under-19 against Babar Azam, Pakistan has just left Ehsan Adil to rot on the vine in Asia.

My comments are actually more about Ehsan Adil than they are about Mohammad Asif. I've given up on Asif and Butt now - I wanted them back for this tour, but not beyond.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] This comparison is unnecessary tbh. Not sure what you're trying to prove.

 

[Junaids]

That is true. (Warner, Smith etc)

The difference is Starc, regardless of figures, stood up when most needed and delivered the blows in first two tests.

Wahab didnt

You know, [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION], I actually enjoy debating with you. We can disagree, but it doesn't mean that I don't respect your views. And sometimes you win the argument. I don't think you have this time - I really do think that Starc and Wahab had similar strengths and similar failings in this series.

And I think that both of them need a Mitchell Marsh as fourth seamer to keep them limited to short spells without wearing them out.

I think that the selection of Maddinson in place of Mitchell Marsh hurt Mitch Starc quite badly. And that Wahab Riaz is used to that excessive load because he has never had the luxury of Aamer Yamin or Hammad Azam bowling a 4 over spell in each session to keep him fresh.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Savage reply by [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

But Chief Destroyer raises a fair point too. Bowling to Aussie batsmen is WAY tougher than bowling to Pak batsmen in Aus.

I am surprised to see Starc's average this high. Maybe the dropped catches in last game screwed up his stats.

Another question is how many of Wahab's wickets were truly earned and how many were got because batsmen decided "chalo, we have hit enough and now let's accelerate and slog"?

Sometimes stats don't reveal real impact.

After 3 tests in India, Adil Rashid had the highest wickets at the best average with the best SR. But impact wise, he was really good in only the first test while in the next 2 tests, he was good but not impactful as his stats suggested and got loads of lower order wickets when India decided to throw their bats.

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] This comparison is unnecessary tbh. Not sure what you're trying to prove.

I'm trying to prove that:

1. The now-derided Pakistan attack wasn't uniquely bad - Australia's bowlers struggled too on these tracks.
2. Without a fast-bowling all-rounder, the fastest Aussie bowler was worn out too - and at least he got a 5 minute break between overs while Hazlewood and Bird bowled at the other end. He didn't have just a 3 minute Lyon over to break up his overs.
3. Wahab Riaz was actually fine. He's tall enough and quick enough to do okay in Australia, and he did no worse than Mitchell Starc.

 

[Junaids]

Savage reply by [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

But Chief Destroyer raises a fair point too. Bowling to Aussie batsmen is WAY tougher than bowling to Pak batsmen in Aus.

I am surprised to see Starc's average this high. Maybe the dropped catches in last game screwed up his stats.

Another question is how many of Wahab's wickets were truly earned and how many were got because batsmen decided "chalo, we have hit enough and now let's accelerate and slog"?

Sometimes stats don't reveal real impact.

After 3 tests in India, Adil Rashid had the highest wickets at the best average with the best SR. But impact wise, he was really good in only the first test while in the next 2 tests, he was good but not impactful as his stats suggested and got loads of lower order wickets when India decided to throw their bats.

I attended 2 of the 3 Tests, and you'll find that Wahab was not the beneficiary of slogging wickets - he got his wickets legitimately. To my considerable surprise!

Warner in particular found him much harder to play than the other Pakistan bowlers.

 

[DRsohail]

When Quinton De Kock, Usman Qadir and Ehsan Adil were turning in stellar performances as Under-19s in South Africa 6 years ago I made clear comments that Ehsan Adil was the key bowler for Australia in 2016-17 and that his training, fitness and exposure needed to be aimed at ensuring that he would be ready.

So whereas Josh Hazlewood has been groomed ever since he was an Under-19 against Babar Azam, Pakistan has just left Ehsan Adil to rot on the vine in Asia.

My comments are actually more about Ehsan Adil than they are about Mohammad Asif. I've given up on Asif and Butt now - I wanted them back for this tour, but not beyond.

wahab just got wickets when they were going to slog...with out that wahab would have been worst..

 

[Junaids]

wahab just got wickets when they were going to slog...with out that wahab would have been worst..

No, he really didn't.

At the Gabba he took 4 wickets in the first innings when there was no slogging going on at all.

At the MCG you will recall that he roughed Dave Warner up quite badly when targeting his body.

Then, at the SCG, he came on on the first morning with Australia 46-0 after just 7 overs. Imran Khan had 3-1-23-0 and Mohammad Amir had 4-0-22-0. Wahab Riaz then put in a spell of 4-1-8-0 to stem the bleeding.

I have never been a Wahab fan and indeed I argued that he should not play the Pink Ball Test. But he actually bowled pretty well in the two Tests that I attended.

 

[Drreddymd]

One more moral victory to pak.pak batsmen made starc look like wahab but a slightly better version

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Savage reply by [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

But Chief Destroyer raises a fair point too. Bowling to Aussie batsmen is WAY tougher than bowling to Pak batsmen in Aus.

I am surprised to see Starc's average this high. Maybe the dropped catches in last game screwed up his stats.

Another question is how many of Wahab's wickets were truly earned and how many were got because batsmen decided "chalo, we have hit enough and now let's accelerate and slog"?

Sometimes stats don't reveal real impact.

After 3 tests in India, Adil Rashid had the highest wickets at the best average with the best SR. But impact wise, he was really good in only the first test while in the next 2 tests, he was good but not impactful as his stats suggested and got loads of lower order wickets when India decided to throw their bats.

Wahab earned pretty much every wicket.

I'm trying to prove that:

1. The now-derided Pakistan attack wasn't uniquely bad - Australia's bowlers struggled too on these tracks.
2. Without a fast-bowling all-rounder, the fastest Aussie bowler was worn out too - and at least he got a 5 minute break between overs while Hazlewood and Bird bowled at the other end. He didn't have just a 3 minute Lyon over to break up his overs.
3. Wahab Riaz was actually fine. He's tall enough and quick enough to do okay in Australia, and he did no worse than Mitchell Starc.

Yes, he was fine. We were lacking a third seamer to sustain the pressure Amir and Wahab built. Yasir losing it didn't help either.

The last two pitches(Melbourne by day 3) were really flat. Hazlewood bowled well to earn his wickets.

 

[DRsohail]

No, he really didn't.

At the Gabba he took 4 wickets in the first innings when there was no slogging going on at all.

At the MCG you will recall that he roughed Dave Warner up quite badly when targeting his body.

Then, at the SCG, he came on on the first morning with Australia 46-0 after just 7 overs. Imran Khan had 3-1-23-0 and Mohammad Amir had 4-0-22-0. Wahab Riaz then put in a spell of 4-1-8-0 to stem the bleeding.

I have never been a Wahab fan and indeed I argued that he should not play the Pink Ball Test. But he actually bowled pretty well in the two Tests that I attended.

his wicket of warner in last innings was a slog??? and yes i agree that due to unimaginative captain we had no allrounder and he was exhausted...wahab like fast bowler is must in our lineup..

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Wahab bowled well in this series. Probably our best pacer. Had Misbah used Yasir properly, Wahab wouldve done even better. The likes of Imran, Rahat and Sohail are the real problems. All 3 need to be kicked out of the Test team. Really needs to sort out the no ball issue though.

 

[soso_killer]

Starc is an average Test bowler, he's world class in ODI's though

 

[DRsohail]

You know, [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION], I actually enjoy debating with you. We can disagree, but it doesn't mean that I don't respect your views. And sometimes you win the argument. I don't think you have this time - I really do think that Starc and Wahab had similar strengths and similar failings in this series.

And I think that both of them need a Mitchell Marsh as fourth seamer to keep them limited to short spells without wearing them out.

I think that the selection of Maddinson in place of Mitchell Marsh hurt Mitch Starc quite badly. And that Wahab Riaz is used to that excessive load because he has never had the luxury of Aamer Yamin or Hammad Azam bowling a 4 over spell in each session to keep him fresh.

i think now ur fantasyabout butt and asif inclusion is over.what are your suggestions for wi tour>???and what u actually expect from mr.inzi ..

 

[Drreddymd]

Starc is an average Test bowler, he's world class in ODI's though

Absolutely.he doesnt have a stock ball he can rely on,too way ward,tries to bowl magic balls .more of a weapon against lower order due to his pace and yorkers

 

[Hawkeye]

Starc is an average Test bowler, he's world class in ODI's though

Let's see how he does against us.

We've already ripped his reputation, I recall how most of the PPers were in fear, "OMG Starc that pace SO DANGEROUSSSSS!"

He's been schooled by most Pak batsmen.

There are a lot on this forum who still overrate him, esp. in this thread.

Wahab has a better strike rate! That's unbelievable, considering how rubbish Wahab is. And, Starc manages to out-rubbish Wahab Riaz. )

People need to stop fearing "pace". Our bats don't.

 

[yasir]

I'm trying to prove that:

1. The now-derided Pakistan attack wasn't uniquely bad - Australia's bowlers struggled too on these tracks.
2. Without a fast-bowling all-rounder, the fastest Aussie bowler was worn out too - and at least he got a 5 minute break between overs while Hazlewood and Bird bowled at the other end. He didn't have just a 3 minute Lyon over to break up his overs.
3. Wahab Riaz was actually fine. He's tall enough and quick enough to do okay in Australia, and he did no worse than Mitchell Starc.

If other bowlers have matched What's intensity, we would not have been that bad...Amir matched in first test, but he looked unfit and tired, afterwards...

Pakistan never understood requirements of AUS, you need really tall bowlers or guys who can bowl heavy really well. Have we ever seen 5'11" Aus medium pacer ?? - Birth was bowling at 130 but from hight of 6'5". If you take 5" away from HW, he will be half the bowler he is...

Even when Pakistan took Shabir to SA, he was effective and taking wickets...Rather than taking Imran, Rahat and what not, they could have gamble with really tall bowler, I think there are one or two. Nobody can do worse than what we have done on this tour.

 

[Stallion__]

To be fair, OP makes a good point. Wahab has bowled exactly the way expected of him. He couldn't have done much better. It's the rest of the bowling attack that has been disappointing. Add to that, Wahab has to bowl to Aussie batsman while Starc has bowled to Pakistanis and also, the bowling support both of them had from their partners.

 

[Square Drive]

Good thread.

As I said, Wahab still has a role to play and should be persisted with.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Wahab earned pretty much every wicket.

I attended 2 of the 3 Tests, and you'll find that Wahab was not the beneficiary of slogging wickets - he got his wickets legitimately. To my considerable surprise!

Warner in particular found him much harder to play than the other Pakistan bowlers.

I see.....while Wahab looked the pick of Pak bowlers, I don't think he was as good as Starc in this series.

 

[Indiafan]

Wahab actually bowled pretty well. Pak fans appreciate no bowlers except Amir but on flat wickets, Wahab was giving his 100% and trying to get batsmen out every ball instead of bowling at the same spot every ball to save runs. He was the pick of the bowlers. If any bowler should complan about lack of support from other bowlers, it should be Wahab

 

[Hawkeye]

I see.....while Wahab looked the pick of Pak bowlers, I don't think he was as good as Starc in this series.

The only good moment Starc had was getting Shafiq out, in what could've been the historic chase.

He got other wickets too, but looked overall very harmless. Even our tailenders butchered him..

 

[Black Zero]

Lmao!

An economy rate of 3.28 vs 4.00 is HUGE!!

For the 100 overs bowled, Wahab gave 72 MORE RUNS than Starc. In what world is this identical

Then you look at the number of maidens. Just 14% of Wahab's over were maidens whereas >21% of Starc's over were maidens!

And obviosly it also shows that Starc can bowl longer spells as he was ripping them at 145kph every spell whereas Wahab was sub 140 in his later spells

I am BAFFLED as to how you can term them as 'identical figures!!'

Yes Hazelwood outbowled them and it reinforces the point that you need a very fit, accurate right arm fast-medium bowler who can bowl economically at <2 an over. Not someone who went for 4+ an over against HBL in the QeA final 2nd innings and bowls at 125kph

I believe you repeated yourself in decribing first three points as higher economy rate covers that bowler bleed more runs on average.

 

[Slog]

I believe you repeated yourself in decribing first three points as higher economy rate covers that bowler bleed more runs on average.

I had to repeat it thrice to make sure he understood it

 

[Statsman]

Wahab actually bowled pretty well. Pak fans appreciate no bowlers except Amir but on flat wickets, Wahab was giving his 100% and trying to get batsmen out every ball instead of bowling at the same spot every ball to save runs. He was the pick of the bowlers. If any bowler should complan about lack of support from other bowlers, it should be Wahab

Agree with this. The no-balls have no excuses but Wahab was clearly the best Pakistani bowler. Bowled with a heart and could've had even better figures had he got better support from other bowers. The least an enforcer can ask his support bowlers is not to get thrashed all around the park. Much respect to Wahab.

 

[Gilly]

Just goes to show, Starc was not that good and Amir was absolutely atrocious. Two bowlers who were hyped before the series and one flopped and the other was the worst pace bowled to visit Australia in the last twenty years.

 

[Drreddymd]

Just goes to show, Starc was not that good and Amir was absolutely atrocious. Two bowlers who were hyped before the series and one flopped and the other was the worst pace bowled to visit Australia in the last twenty years.

Gilly how will aus batsmen improve outside if they keep playing on roads which doesnt swing,seam and spin

 

[Statsman]

People are contviniently forgetting how many times Wahab took out Warner when the latter was looking at his absolute beastly best thus saving the likes of Yasir, Sohail and Imran from further embarrassment.

 

[Drreddymd]

Gilly how will aus batsmen improve outside if they keep playing on roads which doesnt swing,seam and spin

Even aus bowlers are huffing and puffing,being over bowled,spinner not effective.why cant they make little bowling friendly conditions in aus any more like 90 s and 2000s

 

[Markhor]

Looking at the numbers its interesting to note Wahab has been our second highest wicket taker in all formats since the start of 2015. He's behind Yasir Shah, with 53 wickets in 16 matches at an average of 34. Yasir averages 32 and has taken 97 wickets.

I guess his good performances are punctuated by his horror shows (0-110 at Trent Bridge) and those stick out in the memory more.

He has operated at a good pace and has been our best bowler on this tour. He has been able to keep things tight at times when others haven't. However the no-ball issues must be rectified and he doesn't swing the ball that much.

 

[ExpressPacer]

I think it's pretty obvious that Wahab is our best fast bowler and that is the reason behind these identical figures. Amir hasn't lived up to the hype. He has too many wicketless innings and hasn't put a major mark in any of the matches. The rest have always been below ordinary. I'm not saying Wahab is a world-class bowler but he's the best we currently have. He doesn't pick up a lot of 5 wicket hauls but he rarely ever goes wicketless. I think I'd like to see him bowling early on in the match. With his pace and that in-dipping yorker, he could rattle a few stumps in the future.

 

[Junaids]

i think now ur fantasyabout butt and asif inclusion is over.what are your suggestions for wi tour>???and what u actually expect from mr.inzi ..

In the West Indies I would play 3 quicks plus Aamer Yamin at 7 and Yasir Shah at 9.

6 Sarfraz Ahmed
7 Aamer Yamin (Hammad Azam in reserve)
8 Mohammad Amir (Ghulam Mudassar in reserve)
9 Yasir Shah
10 Wahab Riaz
11 Ehsan Adil (Hasan Ali in reserve)

 

[Markhor]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] - do we really need all those quicks ? Remember we won't be playing on the West Indies pitches of the 80s and 90s.

Caribbean pitches have become almost uniformly slow, low turners. If you look at the domestic bowling charts, the majority of leading wicket-takers are spinners.

2 spinners will be more likely, especially for reducing workload on Yasir. IIRC we played 3 spinners on our last WI tour in 2011 - Ajmal, Rehman and Hafeez.

 

[hamzie]

3.28 vs 4 = identical )

 

[ExpressPacer]

In the West Indies I would play 3 quicks plus Aamer Yamin at 7 and Yasir Shah at 9.

6 Sarfraz Ahmed
7 Aamer Yamin (Hammad Azam in reserve)
8 Mohammad Amir (Ghulam Mudassar in reserve)
9 Yasir Shah
10 Wahab Riaz
11 Ehsan Adil (Hasan Ali in reserve)

Why Ehsan Adil? He's always been average at best whenever he's played for Pakistan. He isn't an inferior version of Mohammad Asif, if that's what you're looking for. He has no pace, not a lot of bounce despite his height and can barely swing it. He does seam it a little but that's about it. Just a bowler a who bowls stump to stump.

If you're saying this on the basis of his Under 19 performances then let me make it clear to you that he is just an another Anwar Ali. Lost all his skills.

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] - do we really need all those quicks ? Remember we won't be playing on the West Indies pitches of the 80s and 90s.

Caribbean pitches have become almost uniformly slow, low turners. If you look at the domestic bowling charts, the majority of leading wicket-takers are spinners.

2 spinners will be more likely, especially for reducing workload on Yasir. IIRC we played 3 spinners on our last WI tour in 2011 - Ajmal, Rehman and Hafeez.

Good points.

But there is a reason why I omitted Mohammad Asif.

The last two year Test cycle finished yesterday, and a new one is under way, in which the Showpiece Series are:

England away May 2018
South Africa away December 2018.

Those are huge series, in which the English Spring weather and eternal South African conditions will require a fourth seamer to prevent a rerun of recent errors.

So I actually would have several demands for the skipper:

1. All four quicks to bowl at least 20% of the daily overs each.

2. Yasir Shah to bowl no more than 20 overs per day.

3. Both Aamer Yamin and Hammad Azam to get some Test experience. The fact that the West Indies use a Dukes Ball helps too.

 

[JaDed]

Jackson Bird outbowled Starc Junaids,if you are considering 2 tests.

Jackson Bird- 3.24 29.20 54.00

 

[super hitter]

people throwing up the garbage at wahab despite no reason.

 

[super hitter]

3.28 vs 4 = identical )

and Pak Batting = Aus Batting
come on bro, be logical

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Australia v Pakistan Test series, 2016-17

Mitchell Starc
145.2 overs
31 maidens
477 runs
14 wickets
Average = 34.07
Strike Rate = 62.2
Economy = 3.28

Wahab Riaz
100 overs
14 maidens
400 runs
11 wickets
Average = 36.36
Strike Rate = 54.5
Economy = 4.00

I have read a lot on this forum about how terrible Wahab Riaz is. Does this mean that Mitchell Starc is just as bad?

They bowled on the same surfaces in the same matches with the same type of balls.

Obviously Josh Hazlewood outbowled both and further reinforced that in Australia you need tall, accurate right-arm fast-medium bowlers above all else.

Junaids

Its time to seal Wahab's Test Career at 24 Tests.

Or you want him to play 47 Tests like Umar Gul ?


If Gun barrel straight Wahab cannot perform in Australia than where will be perform ?

We only needed his Pace and Bounce for Australia. That's it.


In his last 4 Test series I guess he played around 8-9 Test matches he played a part in Pakistan winning in only 1 Test match in England. That's it. Is this good enough ? No.


Starc cannot be judged on 1 series. Same with Wahab. Just look at Starc's last 10 Tests and Wahab's last 10 Tests and than judge where they stand ?

Stats aren't everything. Did you watch Starc's reverse swing in 2nd innings of Melbourne Test ?


Starc hasn't hit his peak as Test fast bowler yet still his Economy rate is under 3.5, SR is under 50 and average is 28 in Test Cricket. Far superior numbers than 5-6 years elder Wahab and don't discount his 8 Test fifties at 24.33.


If I was CS of PCB I would have called Wahab and said Man your time is up in Test Cricket. Focus on limited overs Cricket. You will continue if you give optimum performances but in Tests we won't be picking you again. Time for the next generation now.

 

[Junaids]

Why Ehsan Adil? He's always been average at best whenever he's played for Pakistan. He isn't an inferior version of Mohammad Asif, if that's what you're looking for. He has no pace, not a lot of bounce despite his height and can barely swing it. He does seam it a little but that's about it. Just a bowler a who bowls stump to stump.

If you're saying this on the basis of his Under 19 performances then let me make it clear to you that he is just an another Anwar Ali. Lost all his skills.

Pakistan needs a right-arm quick of a minimum 6'4 in height for the South Africa tour in 23 months.

I agree with all your points, but the only alternative is a geriatric Mohammad Asif.

I want Ehsan Adil to be groomed by the senior coaches now. I want them to work on his fitness, his pace and his action, and I want them to work on his batting too.

He will never be a Mohammad Asif, averaging 25 in Tests.

But I'm hoping that he can be made into a Test third seamer, as follows:

Averaging 33 as a bowler, bowling faster than 135K all day, with a nagging off-stump line and a full length to optimise lift.

Averaging 22 as a batsman, like Stuart Broad or Ryan Harris.

So he could ultimately bat at 9, but would probably make way for a second spinner in home Tests.

 

[Junaids]

Junaids

Its time to seal Wahab's Test Career at 24 Tests.

Or you want him to play 47 Tests like Umar Gul ?


If Gun barrel straight Wahab cannot perform in Australia than where will be perform ?

We only needed his Pace and Bounce for Australia. That's it.


In his last 4 Test series I guess he played around 8-9 Test matches he played a part in Pakistan winning in only 1 Test match in England. That's it. Is this good enough ? No.


Starc cannot be judged on 1 series. Same with Wahab. Just look at Starc's last 10 Tests and Wahab's last 10 Tests and than judge where they stand ?

Stats aren't everything. Did you watch Starc's reverse swing in 2nd innings of Melbourne Test ?


Starc hasn't hit his peak as Test fast bowler yet still his Economy rate is under 3.5, SR is under 50 and average is 28 in Test Cricket. Far superior numbers than 5-6 years elder Wahab and don't discount his 8 Test fifties at 24.33.


If I was CS of PCB I would have called Wahab and said Man your time is up in Test Cricket. Focus on limited overs Cricket. You will continue if you give optimum performances but in Tests we won't be picking you again. Time for the next generation now.

Good points, I accept.

But I don't see an alternative who can bowl 145+ currently.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Pakistan needs a right-arm quick of a minimum 6'4 in height for the South Africa tour in 23 months.

I agree with all your points, but the only alternative is a geriatric Mohammad Asif.

I want Ehsan Adil to be groomed by the senior coaches now. I want them to work on his fitness, his pace and his action, and I want them to work on his batting too.

He will never be a Mohammad Asif, averaging 25 in Tests.

But I'm hoping that he can be made into a Test third seamer, as follows:

Averaging 33 as a bowler, bowling faster than 135K all day, with a nagging off-stump line and a full length to optimise lift.

Averaging 22 as a batsman, like Stuart Broad or Ryan Harris.

So he could ultimately bat at 9, but would probably make way for a second spinner in home Tests.

I think those are pretty valid arguments. I don't think there's another bowler in Pakistan with that height who's under 25. So, I agree with you. Maybe if the coaching staff work on him and his pace, Paksitan can have a good bowler in him who bowls in the late 130's and early 140's because he's shown he can bowl the odd ball at 145 KPH back when he was 20 or 21.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Good points, I accept.

But I don't see an alternative who can bowl 145+ currently.

You should compromise with 140+kph younger bowler who can average under 30.

 

[Junaids]

You should compromise with 140+kph younger bowler who can average under 30.

I'd really appreciate your comments on my Ehsan Adil Project.

I don't think his bowling or batting will develop in domestic cricket, but I see no alternative right-arm pacer of a minimum 6'4 in height.

And we have just seen how desperately you require one in Australia and South Africa.

So I want him in all international squads for the next two years, with clear instructions to the bowling, batting, fitness and fielding coaches that they are to make him into a Poor Man's Hazlewood with the ball (even Jackson Bird would be okay) but also into Ryan Harris with the bat.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

Starc looked more dangerous and look like always taking wickets in compare to Wahab , Shami also was averaging less than Johnson in last series but Johnson was more dangerous and won him the second test.

 

[waleed88]

I have been a big hater of Starc on this forum, but its clear Wahab lacks an inswinger which Starc has along with the glaringly obvious deficiency in Wahab that most of the times he has no idea what he's doing..

Having said that Wahab was our best bowler by a mile on this tour..

Whereas Sohail Khan has been our best bowler from the previous 2 tours away from home.. (Eng vs NZ)..

Says more about the guy who was initially supposed to give Starc a tough time... had all these threads on Amir vs Starc before the series started

Whereas Wahab was disparaged to no ends...

Another bowler who outperforms Amir.. where is the dropped catch excuse now?

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

Those figures aren't identical. Thread explained.

 

[waleed88]

Don't forget the dropped catches off Starc's bowling...

There were atleast 2

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=135196]waleed88[/MENTION]
I pointed out two years ago that Amir would fail again in Australia - like Trent Boult he is at least 5 inches too short here.

The only short quicks I've seen succeed here are Malcolm Marshall and Ryan Harris - but they had bowled many many hundreds of overs here and knew what length to bowl.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I'd really appreciate your comments on my Ehsan Adil Project.

I don't think his bowling or batting will develop in domestic cricket, but I see no alternative right-arm pacer of a minimum 6'4 in height.

And we have just seen how desperately you require one in Australia and South Africa.

So I want him in all international squads for the next two years, with clear instructions to the bowling, batting, fitness and fielding coaches that they are to make him into a Poor Man's Hazlewood with the ball (even Jackson Bird would be okay) but also into Ryan Harris with the bat.

The only issue Ehsan Adil has in bowling is worsttttt fitness. I fail to understand why he cannot improve his fitness ?

Once he does that than he can improve his batting aswell.


Hasn't he got enough diet & training awareness in last 4 years ? Some Int Cricket and a PSL season ?


No muscle, weak calves, weak thighs, weak lower back.


NCA & Mudassar would definitely be working on him unless they have lost faith in him completely.

Since tour of South Africa is 23 months away so I ll keep my fingers crossed wrt Waqas Ahmed, Irfanullah Shah, Sameen Gul & Mohammad Irfan junior. All are 6'4.


Amongst these Sameen needs to quicken up his runup and make it smooth.

Irfanullah Shah just needs to increase 10 kg body weight. Needs to put on muscle. Should be told not to do any weight training of WINGS.


Irfan needs to improve his fitness plus needs to eliminate his stagger just before delivering the ball. He stops and loses atleast 8kph because he loses momemtum. Also needs to use his non bowling arm better.

If he can do that than He will become a scary 70's, 80's like tall West Indian fast bowlers.

But I am sorry we don't have any Professional Coach to do these things professionally and scientifically.

Give Irfan to high performance centre of Australia for 4-5 months and than see a threatening Fast bowler a strike bowler come out.


Lastly Waqas just needs to lose 5 kg weight and build his stamenna & strength needed for Int Cricket.

 

[ShoonyaSifar]

Clutching at the straws. Starc's day 5 spell at Gabba to win the test puts him far ahead of Wahab who it seems was only getting the centurions out.

 

[wasimjunior]

Lmao!

An economy rate of 3.28 vs 4.00 is HUGE!!

For the 100 overs bowled, Wahab gave 72 MORE RUNS than Starc. In what world is this identical

Then you look at the number of maidens. Just 14% of Wahab's over were maidens whereas >21% of Starc's over were maidens!

And obviosly it also shows that Starc can bowl longer spells as he was ripping them at 145kph every spell whereas Wahab was sub 140 in his later spells

I am BAFFLED as to how you can term them as 'identical figures!!'

Yes Hazelwood outbowled them and it reinforces the point that you need a very fit, accurate right arm fast-medium bowler who can bowl economically at <2 an over. Not someone who went for 4+ an over against HBL in the QeA final 2nd innings and bowls at 125kph

thats less than a run an over , plus wahab bowled at warner, starc at sami aslam.

This is a very valid thread and Junaids imo adds some real value to this forum when he isnt ranting on about certain favourite players.

 

[wasimjunior]

People also forget bowling is about partnerships unlike batting and Wahab was hindered with sub standard support, whereas Starc had hazelwood and bird backing him up.

 

[Sadevdesai]

Very easy to explain .... the stats are NOT identical. They have to be within 2% to be identical.

 

[Buffet]

[MENTION=135196]waleed88[/MENTION]
I pointed out two years ago that Amir would fail again in Australia - like Trent Boult he is at least 5 inches too short here.

The only short quicks I've seen succeed here are Malcolm Marshall and Ryan Harris - but they had bowled many many hundreds of overs here and knew what length to bowl.

Amir has same height as some one like Dev. Kapil has 50+ wickets at below 25 average with 5 5-fers in Aus. The best Asian pacers in Aus was not taller than Amir. Amir failing in Aus can't be simply attributed to him not being 6 and half feet tall.

 

[street cricketer]

Thought Wahab bowled well..

 

[Slog]

thats less than a run an over , plus wahab bowled at warner, starc at sami aslam.

This is a very valid thread and Junaids imo adds some real value to this forum when he isnt ranting on about certain favourite players.

Giving 0.72 extra runs every over IS a big deal. What do you expect. 5 runs lol

Over a 20 over spell which is the norm that IS a lot of runs

 

[AlphaFighter]

Economy is not that vital for me, wickets are. I dont care Wahab going for 4 runs an over as long as he is picking up wickets as well, unlike that economical but useless and over rated Amir.

 

[Hasan123]

Wahab bowled well but Starc bowled better overall.

 

[GenericBrand]

Whats the point in comparing Pakistani bowlers to the opposition's if people are just going to reply with

"oh, but xyz had better batsmen while he bowled to Pakistani batsmen"

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Junaids]

Amir has same height as some one like Dev. Kapil has 50+ wickets at below 25 average with 5 5-fers in Aus. The best Asian pacers in Aus was not taller than Amir. Amir failing in Aus can't be simply attributed to him not being 6 and half feet tall.

That's very true, but Aussie wickets were much, much greener and much, much bouncier in those days.

Starc, Amir and Wahab were bowling on the same pitch with the same balls.

 

[Ellipsism]

Don't forget the dropped catches off Starc's bowling...

There were atleast 2

He ended up taking Asad's wicket anyway.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Wahab reached close to Starc but over rated Amir couldnt, no surprise. Yet Wahab is the guy we insult

 

[Junaids]

The only issue Ehsan Adil has in bowling is worsttttt fitness. I fail to understand why he cannot improve his fitness ?

Once he does that than he can improve his batting aswell.


Hasn't he got enough diet & training awareness in last 4 years ? Some Int Cricket and a PSL season ?


No muscle, weak calves, weak thighs, weak lower back.


NCA & Mudassar would definitely be working on him unless they have lost faith in him completely.

Since tour of South Africa is 23 months away so I ll keep my fingers crossed wrt Waqas Ahmed, Irfanullah Shah, Sameen Gul & Mohammad Irfan junior. All are 6'4.


Amongst these Sameen needs to quicken up his runup and make it smooth.

Irfanullah Shah just needs to increase 10 kg body weight. Needs to put on muscle. Should be told not to do any weight training of WINGS.


Irfan needs to improve his fitness plus needs to eliminate his stagger just before delivering the ball. He stops and loses atleast 8kph because he loses momemtum. Also needs to use his non bowling arm better.

If he can do that than He will become a scary 70's, 80's like tall West Indian fast bowlers.

But I am sorry we don't have any Professional Coach to do these things professionally and scientifically.

Give Irfan to high performance centre of Australia for 4-5 months and than see a threatening Fast bowler a strike bowler come out.


Lastly Waqas just needs to lose 5 kg weight and build his stamenna & strength needed for Int Cricket.

Whoever is chosen, Pakistan needs to invest in 2 tall right-arm pace bowlers who can preferably bowl 140+ all day but at the very least bowl 135+ all day.

But given that the tour of England is 16 months away and the tour of South Africa is 23 months away, the two chosen tall right-arm bowlers need to be identified NOW and removed from all domestic cricket, and sent to work exclusively with the national team bowling, fitness, batting and fielding coaches.

To be quite honest, my only use for Mohammad Asif now would probably be as bowling coach. There is a long history of players banned for serious unethical conduct (in the shape of Apartheid tours) being used as coaches in the future, indeed Graham Gooch even came back as national team captain.

If I could give your bowlers to Azhar Mahmood for 50 days of intensive coaching or to Mohammad Asif, I don't think I'd pick Azhar.

But the key thing is that this won't happen if they are just left at their clubs.

And they don't just need bowling and fitness training. They need to optimize their batting and fielding too. Because in 23 months, they have to bat against Kagiso Rabada on a bouncy Wanderers track.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Whoever is chosen, Pakistan needs to invest in 2 tall right-arm pace bowlers who can preferably bowl 140+ all day but at the very least bowl 135+ all day.

But given that the tour of England is 16 months away and the tour of South Africa is 23 months away, the two chosen tall right-arm bowlers need to be identified NOW and removed from all domestic cricket, and sent to work exclusively with the national team bowling, fitness, batting and fielding coaches.

To be quite honest, my only use for Mohammad Asif now would probably be as bowling coach. There is a long history of players banned for serious unethical conduct (in the shape of Apartheid tours) being used as coaches in the future, indeed Graham Gooch even came back as national team captain.

If I could give your bowlers to Azhar Mahmood for 50 days of intensive coaching or to Mohammad Asif, I don't think I'd pick Azhar.

But the key thing is that this won't happen if they are just left at their clubs.

And they don't just need bowling and fitness training. They need to optimize their batting and fielding too. Because in 23 months, they have to bat against Kagiso Rabada on a bouncy Wanderers track.

At 34 Asif has only played 92 Fc matches. McGrath retired with 180 plus Fc games.

With no major injury history of knees, ankle, shoulder or back I don't see why He cannot play Test Cricket for 2-4 more years ?

He is at NCA working on his Fitness. Working on fitness for him doesn't mean losing weight. It only means increasing strength, increasing stamenna.


If Asif scores well in NCA's fitness Test than why not ?


After 10 overs Pink ball became dead. It was C grade ball. Asif got food poisoning otherwise there was nothing there to suggest that He is finished or is more good enough.


Walsh and Hadlee played until 39-40. Ryan Haris despite getting unfit repeatedly was picked again the moment he got fit until the age of 36 and with history of 2-3 serious knee injuries. Why ? Because In Test Cricket there is no World Cup you target and each Test in itself is a huge event. It's all about winning Test matches. If Asif can win us 10 Test matches than I ll take it.


Your best Fast bowler should be the first being picked for your Test team and Asif still is the best Fast bowler we have and if he scores well in NCA's fitness Test meets International Criteria of fitness than He should be picked for the tour of West Indies. He should be leader of the attack guiding young guns.


Wrt Coaching I would like him to do Coaching Certifications (like professionals) once he retires and than start Coaching from Scratch. Club, District, Region, Department than within 2-3 years Coaching at national level.


He should work as hard as he can and target 50 Tests mark which is very much possible.

 

[coy0607]

in what world are these identical

Wahab has a significantly higher economy rate, a higher average, less wickets

Starc has outperformed Wahab in every measure

 

[LordJames]

Australia v Pakistan Test series, 2016-17

Mitchell Starc
145.2 overs
31 maidens
477 runs
14 wickets
Average = 34.07
Strike Rate = 62.2
Economy = 3.28

Wahab Riaz
100 overs
14 maidens
400 runs
11 wickets
Average = 36.36
Strike Rate = 54.5
Economy = 4.00

I have read a lot on this forum about how terrible Wahab Riaz is. Does this mean that Mitchell Starc is just as bad?

They bowled on the same surfaces in the same matches with the same type of balls.

Obviously Josh Hazlewood outbowled both and further reinforced that in Australia you need tall, accurate right-arm fast-medium bowlers above all else.

These are not identical stats. Secondly, Aussies were after Pakistan so were bound to give more chances.

Pakistan on the other hand knew Starc to be Number 1 Threat so they worked on a plan and shut shop! Happens all the time that in a Series the main strike bowler has less then flattering stats while someone else prospers.

Wahab was better but if after years of International Cricket you have a fundamental problem with seam position and with no balls, you need to be sat down with and spoken to in uncompromising terms.

Wahab is not the future for Pakistan although he always gives his 100% for his country but time to seriously look into moving on

 

[Mamoon]

Shafiq scored more runs than Kallis in South Africa in 2013, what does that mean. Please explain.

Jamshed scored more runs than Kohli in the 2013 ODI series in India, what does that mean. Please explain.

 

[waleed88]

He ended up taking Asad's wicket anyway.

Amir had atleast 20 dropped catches, if he didn't, he would probably be our highest wicket taker..

Said everyone on this forum when he failed to deliver

 

[Junaids]

Shafiq scored more runs than Kallis in South Africa in 2013, what does that mean. Please explain.

Jamshed scored more runs than Kohli in the 2013 ODI series in India, what does that mean. Please explain.

My point is simple.

Two tall left-arm bowlers bowling mid-140's and above on the same wickets in the same matches with the same balls.

And finishing with very similar records.

It tells me that they performed to a very similar level.

 

[Mamoon]

My point is simple.

Two tall left-arm bowlers bowling mid-140's and above on the same wickets in the same matches with the same balls.

And finishing with very similar records.

It tells me that they performed to a very similar level.

But we cannot draw any conclusions from the fact that for 3 matches, Starc wasn't much better than Wahab, although they didn't post identical figures like you are suggesting.

Starc is so much better than Wahab in every bowling measure that this is a completely irrelevant comparison. We can just say that Starc wasn't at his best at all, while Australia is the only place on earth where Wahab can be decent for more than one game per series.

 

[Ab Fan]

Wahab had a good outing but I expected him to deliver the best in Australian conditions only.

Again, Starc is a good test bowler not one of finest of the era.

 

[jusarrived]

Always told you guys he was your best Test bowler . He just lacks the support at other end .

 

[Last Monetarist]

I said last summer that Pakistan's bowling lineup is going to deliver a whitewash in Australia and it came to pass. What I didn't expect were the three dismal losses that came before against WI and NZ. That's what skewed the whole analysis and exacerbated the pitfalls from this predictable showing in Australia.

I think [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] comparison with Starc's figures is fair. Wahab did as well as expected, he's never going to take bucket loads of wickets and will always leak runs cause that's what you get from him. He is hit and miss, but when he gets it right he is easily the most effective quick in the country. It's the rest of the attack - particularly Amir - that underperformed relative to conventional expectations from fans and critics.