MS Dhoni is better than Michael Bevan - He is the BEST finisher of the game

[Garuda]

Bevan never it get to 10-12 runs required in the last over... He was a true finisher of the game. Dhoni is a product of BCCI funding and crap bowling at the death.

You mean scooping to Joginder Sharma ?

 

[Electron]

How do you score singles when you need 12 runs to win in a single over remaining batting with the tail at that?

I always thought 9 runs+ was impossible in a single over especially under pressure. One player changed my perception thats because he did on a regular basis.

Again if you never saw the great man play, aespecialy in those days with minimum field restrictions, keep your mouth shut

What a mean and scary troll.

 

[test_fan]

To call a single player the greatest is always stupid and subjective. Unless you have a fair sample then its best to keep your mouth shut

Why don't apply the same logic and keep your own pie hole shut, people come here for discussion, don't try to act like a boss telling other what to do, cause you are not.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Do you have any data to back it up? I mention again that its just your impression


While chasing and in winning (where both were not out, which means they finished the game)

Bevan has scored 1020 runs from 1480 balls at a SR of 68.91
MSD has scored 1500 runs from 1600 balls at a SR of 93.75


Which clearly says Dhoni has made it more times where demand was to score 150% faster than what Bevan had to do.

So what makes you think Dhoni is not crossed Bevan for better finisher ?

Do you have stats of them doing it against good bowling attacks they faced (please exclude SL).. I will exclude current Pak bowling line up also, because Bevan faced much better version of that.

I am never a fan of stats, and like to form my opinion based on watching the game, and if I don't know, would like to hear from the good commentators and experts of the game to form my opinion.. I didn't watch Bevan's every innings, I watched some (in 2003 WC, in india's tour, against SA, NZ etc.).. and that impression is a very good one.

When I say there must be a reason why experts world over recognized him then as the best ODI batsman of his genre ever, I did not mean no one in the future can overtake him..

Let's leave this argument.. as I said earlier, in my opinion the gap is narrowing and Dhoni may surpass him also (in your opinion he already has, which is not something I totally disagree with)..

 

[sachjinn]

If you never saw Bevan play then i suggest to not post (in plain English keep your mouth shut) on this thread guys please.

Dhoni is not fit enough to lace his boots IMO, you have to do what MS does against the bowling attacks as well. In that regard Bevan and Klusner will always be ahead of him IMO.

Bold - proves you're nothing but a forum gleaner. Someone who gets his cricket off cricket forums.

 

[Cricket_Guy]

Who else whould have Bowled that last over?


Yes , Because all they needed was to defend their wicket. It was a 11 vs 1 contest.



Buvaneshwar has been the best pacer for us..... Vinay is similar. I cant justify why Ishant played but replacing Umesh with Vinay is no brainer

Good post this!!

 

[vic mackey]

Do you have stats of them doing it against good bowling attacks they faced (please exclude SL).. I will exclude current Pak bowling line up also, because Bevan faced much better version of that.

I am never a fan of stats, and like to form my opinion based on watching the game, and if I don't know, would like to hear from the good commentators and experts of the game to form my opinion.. I didn't watch Bevan's every innings, I watched some (in 2003 WC, in india's tour, against SA, NZ etc.).. and that impression is a very good one.

When I say there must be a reason why experts world over recognized him then as the best ODI batsman of his genre ever, I did not mean no one in the future can overtake him..

Let's leave this argument.. as I said earlier, in my opinion the gap is narrowing and Dhoni may surpass him also (in your opinion he already has, which is not something I totally disagree with)..

Since u didn't watch bevan innings, u can never compare dhoni and bevan.Those who watched dhoni and bevan will put dhoni ahead of bevan.Bevan was great batsman but he didnt have capability to slog.He was good in running between wicket and thats it.Dhoni is not only good in finishing but has also played some fabulous innings as top order batsman.

 

[Garuda]

Do you have stats of them doing it against good bowling attacks they faced (please exclude SL).. I will exclude current Pak bowling line up also, because Bevan faced much better version of that.

I am never a fan of stats, and like to form my opinion based on watching the game, and if I don't know, would like to hear from the good commentators and experts of the game to form my opinion.. I didn't watch Bevan's every innings, I watched some (in 2003 WC, in india's tour, against SA, NZ etc.).. and that impression is a very good one.

When I say there must be a reason why experts world over recognized him then as the best ODI batsman of his genre ever, I did not mean no one in the future can overtake him..

Let's leave this argument.. as I said earlier, in my opinion the gap is narrowing and Dhoni may surpass him also (in your opinion he already has, which is not something I totally disagree with)..

If bowling is such a weak point then every tom, dick and harry would be doing what Dhoni is doing. But we have only one after Bevan who can be compared.

So your argument of good bowling/bad bowling doesn't hold good.

Why ? Didn't Bevan played against India? Thats really cherry picking you are trying to do now.

See, I can say hussey is better and I feel that way. If I do not want to look at anything then you can not change my mind.

But I showed you facts in Dhoni's case.

 

[vicky_iisc]

If bowling is such a weak point then every tom, dick and harry would be doing what Dhoni is doing. But we have only one after Bevan who can be compared.

So your argument of good bowling/bad bowling doesn't hold good.

Why ? Didn't Bevan played against India? Thats really cherry picking you are trying to do now.

See, I can say hussey is better and I feel that way. If I do not want to look at anything then you can not change my mind.

But I showed you facts in Dhoni's case.

Why are you comparing Dhoni with his contemporaries ? The comparison was with Bevan.. we are moving the argument now.. It is already established that Dhoni is perhaps the best in this genre in the current era.. so what's the point saying that ?

The point was Bevan did it against ALL bowling attacks on almost all surfaces (including but not only India).. now Dhoni should do it against SA/Aus (against Eng he did..) outside India..to be proven ahead of Bevan in a definite manner.. He still might be better than Bevan in certain regards of ODI batting.. I am not saying unless Dhoni does it against so and so.. he is nowhere compared to Bevan.

Anyway, my earlier point was to reply to people who told Bevan is "nowhere" near Dhoni.. that is an outrageously false observation.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Since u didn't watch bevan innings, u can never compare dhoni and bevan.Those who watched dhoni and bevan will put dhoni ahead of bevan.Bevan was great batsman but he didnt have capability to slog.He was good in running between wicket and thats it.Dhoni is not only good in finishing but has also played some fabulous innings as top order batsman.

I never said that.. I said, I haven't watched ALL of his good innings.. and do you really need to watch the innings yourself to form opinion ? Bevan was only good in running b/w the wickets and that's it ?? Ha ha ha.. Jonty Rhodes should have been called best ODI batsman of that era if that was the only good thing Bevan had ? What do you mean "that's it" ..

 

[Sultan Yusuf]

Dhoni is better than Bevan. He is the BEST finisher in the game

Ultimately both are failures in test cricket - do not have the technique to survive.

In jamodis it really doesn't matter because its not proper cricket, and esp India v SL matches which are basically part of a monthly repayment plan.

SL seem to be making some overpayments recently - and I don't really blame them. Better to clear the debt ASAP.

Anyway back on topic, dhoni over bevan against SL during a repayment period. Otherwise obv bevan as an odi player is miles ahead

 

[vicky_iisc]

Ultimately both are failures in test cricket - do not have the technique to survive.

In jamodis it really doesn't matter because its not proper cricket, and esp India v SL matches which are basically part of a monthly repayment plan.

SL seem to be making some overpayments recently - and I don't really blame them. Better to clear the debt ASAP.

Anyway back on topic, dhoni over bevan against SL during a repayment period. Otherwise obv bevan as an odi player is miles ahead

You are a troll.. but your first comment is correct.. both were Test failures. Still Dhoni is moderately ok..

 

[shah_1]

How is Dhoni a failure in test cricket, his stat are still good enough for WK batsman.

 

[vicky_iisc]

How is Dhoni a failure in test cricket, his stat are still good enough for WK batsman.

Not all about stats.. but comparing him with other WK batsmen like Gilly/Sangakkara/Flower who were exceptional.. but even Matt Prior/DeVilliars are better in Test.

Dhoni is ok.. not too bad.. but runs are expected nowadays of WK..

 

[truefan]

In the 74 successful run chases by India since Dhoni started playing,Dhoni has an astonishing record of 100.09 as average.... and we all knwo about his strike rates

 

[Mamoon]

Dhoni is better than Bevan. He is the BEST finisher in the game

People underrate him in tests.

He just scored a double hundred against Australia which someone like Prior never will. Got a 99 against England too.

 

[Hitman]

I just want him to make a mark in Test cricket as well. With his talent I'm sure he can. Because you never attain any greatness unless you perform in Tests.

 

[Buffet]

How is Dhoni a failure in test cricket, his stat are still good enough for WK batsman.

+1

Dhoni has played 77 test matches with 6 hundreds and 28 fifties with a career average of 39.70. I guess some posters have too high a standard.

 

[Hitman]

+1

Dhoni has played 77 test matches with 6 hundreds and 28 fifties with a career average of 39.70. I guess some posters have too high a standard.

It's descent. But with his talent he should be averaging more than 45. Don't you think so?

 

[Mamoon]

Dhoni is better than Bevan. He is the BEST finisher in the game

I just want him to make a mark in Test cricket as well. With his talent I'm sure he can. Because you never attain any greatness unless you perform in Tests.

He did make a mark with that awesome double hundred.

 

[Buffet]

It's descent. But with his talent he should be averaging more than 45. Don't you think so?

I think it's very good for a WK Batsman. I can't tell for sure what he should be averaging because he does have a problem in swinging conditions. But he has very good record even now for a WK batsman. No where close to getting termed as failure. We can't compare it with his ODI records to judge. I think if he plays freely in test matches then he can do better. He doesn't have too great a defensive game.

 

[Hitman]

He did make a mark with that awesome double hundred.

That was a one off innings. He won't make a mark, and his critics won't take him seriously unless he averages at least 45 in tests.

 

[Mamoon]

Dhoni is better than Bevan. He is the BEST finisher in the game

That was a one off innings. He won't make a mark, and his critics won't take him seriously unless he averages at least 45 in tests.

Expecting a WK to average close to 50 in tests is too much.

 

[Hitman]

Expecting a WK to average close to 50 in tests is too much.

Dhoni is known more for his batting than his wicket keeping skills. An average of more than 45 in Tests will establish himself as an all time great cricketer.

 

[Garuda]

Why are you comparing Dhoni with his contemporaries ? The comparison was with Bevan.. we are moving the argument now.. It is already established that Dhoni is perhaps the best in this genre in the current era.. so what's the point saying that ?

The point was Bevan did it against ALL bowling attacks on almost all surfaces (including but not only India).. now Dhoni should do it against SA/Aus (against Eng he did..) outside India..to be proven ahead of Bevan in a definite manner.. He still might be better than Bevan in certain regards of ODI batting.. I am not saying unless Dhoni does it against so and so.. he is nowhere compared to Bevan.

Anyway, my earlier point was to reply to people who told Bevan is "nowhere" near Dhoni.. that is an outrageously false observation.

I am not comparing. You are trying to degrade Dhoni's achievement by saying he is batting against poor bowling team compared to Bevan. How do you prove that?

It is clear that if the bowling was so poor today, then many more would be doing like Dhoni. Which is not the case.

Rather you are moving the argument from achievement by Dhoni compared to Bevan to Bowling then and bowling now.

I clearly showed you data how Dhoni had to score almost 1.5 times faster for a successful chase.

Do you have anything to back your claim than just your feeling?

 

[vicky_iisc]

I am not comparing. You are trying to degrade Dhoni's achievement by saying he is batting against poor bowling team compared to Bevan. How do you prove that?

It is clear that if the bowling was so poor today, then many more would be doing like Dhoni. Which is not the case.



I clearly showed you data how Dhoni had to score almost 1.5 times faster for a successful chase.

Do you have anything to back your claim than just your feeling?

pretty lame argument (the highlighted part).. Dhoni is the best in current era.. others in current era have not had so much success against this bowling only proves him as better than the others in current era.. does not put any valid argument in comparison to Bevan.

Let Dhoni play same kind of innings (match winning) against Aus/SA.. and there will not be any doubt as to who is the best of them all.. He may do it too, but hasn't done that till now..

Data to show that he has better SR than Bevan is beaten to death.. that we already argued earlier is ONE of the features, not all and all in itself..

My claim is the better bowling attacks and tougher batting conditions in the 90s..

 

[Garuda]

pretty lame argument (the highlighted part).. Dhoni is the best in current era.. others in current era have not had so much success against this bowling only proves him as better than the others in current era.. does not put any valid argument in comparison to Bevan.

Let Dhoni play same kind of innings (match winning) against Aus/SA.. and there will not be any doubt as to who is the best of them all.. He may do it too, but hasn't done that till now..

Data to show that he has better SR than Bevan is beaten to death.. that we already argued earlier is ONE of the features, not all and all in itself..

My claim is the better bowling attacks and tougher batting conditions in the 90s..

Lame argument ??? sure why not.


Atleast, you agree that Dhoni is the best in this era. Are you saying all other batsmen in this era are trash who can't do it against poor bowling ?


Regarding dhoni performing in Aus/ENG/SA, I think he has already won ODIs in similar conditions. Check the VB series in Aus and last ODI series in ENG. List me 10 matches of Bevan where he played matches that Dhoni played in VB series in AUS or WC final or last match against SL.

How can you say the data is beaten to death ??? on what basis ?

It clearly shows Dhoni had to score 1.5 times on the matches he won while playing till end. That is fact. What you are arguing is just emotional way of arguing.

 

[test_fan]

Not all about stats.. but comparing him with other WK batsmen like Gilly/Sangakkara/Flower who were exceptional.. but even Matt Prior/DeVilliars are better in Test.

Dhoni is ok.. not too bad.. but runs are expected nowadays of WK..

There is a misconception about Sangakarra. He is a great batsman, but not a great wk batsman. His average plummets if you consider him as a wk batsman.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...rderby=default;template=results;type=allround

ABDV has only played a few matches as wk if I am not mistaken.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Lame argument ??? sure why not.


Atleast, you agree that Dhoni is the best in this era. Are you saying all other batsmen in this era are trash who can't do it against poor bowling ?


.

First of all, I never said Dhoni isn't the best of the current era.. what's there to disagree ?

If Dhoni is best in this era, does it mean other batsmen are trash ? When did I say or imply that ? Why are you extrapolating the logic and putting words in my mouth ?

Dhoni has a close competition with ABD also in this era, but I feel Dhoni is better than him for reasons known..

I specially cut your post to this section because it was unnecessarily putting words in my mouth.. I will reply to the later part of your post separately, may be tomorrow..

 

[vicky_iisc]

There is a misconception about Sangakarra. He is a great batsman, but not a great wk batsman. His average plummets if you consider him as a wk batsman.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...rderby=default;template=results;type=allround

ABDV has only played a few matches as wk if I am not mistaken.

Ok.. If you take WK batsman, Dhoni isn't bad.. but if you look at him purely as a batsman, he has technical flaws which get exposed ..

The manner of his dismissals worry me.. not the lack of runs as much.

 

[test_fan]

Ok.. If you take WK batsman, Dhoni isn't bad..

I thought that was the whole point of this discussion. No one is comparing him with the likes of Ponting and Lara. There has been only a handful of wk batsmen who are better than Dhoni.

 

[test_fan]

BTW in tests I think Prior is a much better wk batsman now than Dhoni. In ODIs Dhoni is simply one of the great batsmen ever, technique notwithstanding.

 

[Garuda]

First of all, I never said Dhoni isn't the best of the current era.. what's there to disagree ?

Nothing.

If Dhoni is best in this era, does it mean other batsmen are trash ? When did I say or imply that ? Why are you extrapolating the logic and putting words in my mouth ?

You said Dhoni is doing this because of poor bowling in this era. I asked if bowling is so poor why other batsmen can't do ? You replied Others can't do because Dhoni is the best.

What does that mean? Either no other batsmen are close to Dhoni who can do the same against an era where there is poor bowling.

Any other reason why other batsmen can't do ? Either they are too trash or the bowling is really not that bad as you are trying to show.

Dhoni has a close competition with ABD also in this era, but I feel Dhoni is better than him for reasons known..

Dhoni has passed ABD long back. Don't even start that comparison.

I specially cut your post to this section because it was unnecessarily putting words in my mouth.. I will reply to the later part of your post separately, may be tomorrow..

I am not putting any words to your mouth. You are the one who is arguing for the sake or argument even after I gave you clear data which backs my claim.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Nothing.



You said Dhoni is doing this because of poor bowling in this era. I asked if bowling is so poor why other batsmen can't do ? You replied Others can't do because Dhoni is the best.

What does that mean? Either no other batsmen are close to Dhoni who can do the same against an era where there is poor bowling.

Any other reason why other batsmen can't do ? Either they are too trash or the bowling is really not that bad as you are trying to show.


.

This is getting out of hand.. Dhoni being the best does not mean others are trash .. do you not get this ? You are trying to put words in my mouth.. I will stick to what I said and have no intention to reply to something which is being attributed to me.. don't extrapolate my sentences to make them look absurd.

 

[Garuda]

This is getting out of hand.. Dhoni being the best does not mean others are trash .. do you not get this ? You are trying to put words in my mouth.. I will stick to what I said and have no intention to reply to something which is being attributed to me.. don't extrapolate my sentences to make them look absurd.

Your point of this generation bowlers are poor says it. Not me.

So you please explain if the bowlers are all poor then why any other batsmen can't finish like Dhoni ? If they are not trash ?

 

[mr.crickett]

Dhoni should be killed or kicked out of team. Bcoz every other day people are comparing him with another player. WTH
He is no.6/7 batsmen, compare him with other no.6/7.
Also his PRIMARY duty is wicket keeping but I never heard anyone is comparing his wicket keeping with any other keeper.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Dhoni should be killed or kicked out of team. Bcoz every other day people are comparing him with another player. WTH
He is no.6/7 batsmen, compare him with other no.6/7.
Also his PRIMARY duty is wicket keeping but I never heard anyone is comparing his wicket keeping with any other keeper.

Are you Jealous or what?

So Dhoni doesnt keep well????He avgs 51 with the bat in ODIs,keeper or not he will walk into any ODI side of any era.

 

[Reverselap]

Being second to Bevan wouldn't be a matter of shame either. If you were ranking the top finishers, Dhoni and Bevan would be at 1st and 2nd. The fact that you're in that top 2 is a big feat in itself

 

[Sultan Yusuf]

Dhoni is better than Bevan. He is the BEST finisher in the game

His own fans are turning against him!

Anyway, I would like to close by saying the following: I actually have a lot more respect for dhoni than all the other so called Indian greats. He goes out, gets the job done, he has a winner's mentality. He's cut out all the crap - the Indian media tried to paint him as some kind of "rock star". He came out of that crap and seriously took on the role of captain.

A lot of Indians want teendi to be this messiah / saviour / hero to them. But people like him have done a lot less for Indian cricket than dhoni and Dravid. They are the real heroes of Indian cricket in the last 20 years or so.

So whilst I have my doubts that dhoni would have been a great against the stronger bowling of yesteryear, he certainly has my respect as a cricketer with the right attitude.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Your point of this generation bowlers are poor says it. Not me.

So you please explain if the bowlers are all poor then why any other batsmen can't finish like Dhoni ? If they are not trash ?

It's not that others (in this gen) are not able to do it, the fact is: Dhoni is doing it better than them..

Being 2nd or 3rd to the best, does not mean one is "trash", right ? I never called other batsmen in this era as "trash".. if that is not putting words in my mouth, what is ?

I have already accepted Dhoni as probably the best of this era.. the fact that he (and not anyone else) is being compared with the best of the last era (Bevan), proves it.

I will request to have an honest discussion, where one is questioned on points he has said, not sentences formed of extrapolated logic.. I am not going to answer the question on other batsmen being trash, because I neither said it nor implied it.

I also would like to mention I did not call present generation bowlers "are all poor". this is again putting words in my mouth.. I only called SL and Pak attacks poor, in case of Pak poorer than the version Bevan faced.. please do not attribute something to me which is not said by me.

 

[Garuda]

It's not that others (in this gen) are not able to do it, the fact is: Dhoni is doing it better than them..

Being 2nd or 3rd to the best, does not mean one is "trash", right ? I never called other batsmen in this era as "trash".. if that is not putting words in my mouth, what is ?

I have already accepted Dhoni as probably the best of this era.. the fact that he (and not anyone else) is being compared with the best of the last era (Bevan), proves it.

I will request to have an honest discussion, where one is questioned on points he has said, not sentences formed of extrapolated logic.. I am not going to answer the question on other batsmen being trash, because I neither said it nor implied it.

dude, You are just beating around the bush.

I have showed you stats supporting me.

You are just giving me your opinion. Now again when you say Dhoni has done better than others, can you show me how many other batsmen of current era even come close to Dhoni as finisher ?

You are the one who brought bowling standing of this era and Bevan era to show Bevan is better.

I gave you proper statistics.

I also would like to mention I did not call present generation bowlers "are all poor". this is again putting words in my mouth.. I only called SL and Pak attacks poor, in case of Pak poorer than the version Bevan faced.. please do not attribute something to me which is not said by me.

I have no intention to put anything in your mouth. So don't open your mouth in every instance.

You can't cherry pick saying SL and Pak attacks are poor. A player can play who are against them. Dhoni can't ask for playing against Mcgrath. It's really stupid to say Dhoni is successful because bowling is poor. Bevan was not facing marshall and Garner either.

I can say Bevan played with the strongest team and had to just finish the game with RRR of 3/4 in the winning matches. Many players in today's era can change easily when RRR is under 5. As he has hardly chased when run rate is 8-9 I don't rate him. How does that logic sound ?

 

[vicky_iisc]

I have no intention to put anything in your mouth. So don't open your mouth in every instance.

You can't cherry pick saying SL and Pak attacks are poor. A player can play who are against them. Dhoni can't ask for playing against Mcgrath. It's really stupid to say Dhoni is successful because bowling is poor. Bevan was not facing marshall and Garner either.

Can I request you not to give such unasked for advices ? What kind of comment is that ? You may not have intention of putting words in my mouth, but you actually did (read my comment above where I have shown it clearly).. then what you come up with "don't open your mounth in every instance".. come on.. at least be reasonable if not courteous.

Now, about cherry picking, no I did not do that. Please read my post again.. I never said that because SL attack is poor, it is Dhoni's fault.. but it's not that all attacks in this era are of same standard as SL. So Dhoni has a chance to prove against better attacks.. the point of "one may only face what is put in front of him" does not hold true, because there are better attacks put in front of him than SL.

Saying that Bevan did not face Marshall or Garner either.. ha ha ha.. when did I say that Bevan faced the best ever attack..? What I said was, he performed against ALL attacks in almost all conditions which were "put in front" of him.. getting it ?

Again, don't put words in other's mouths to suit your argument.. if you do it again, I am not going to carry this discussion further.. you question me on points which I never said .. and then your enlightened advices of not opening my mouth..

 

[vicky_iisc]

You can't cherry pick saying SL and Pak attacks are poor. A player can play who are against them. Dhoni can't ask for playing against Mcgrath. It's really stupid to say Dhoni is successful because bowling is poor. Bevan was not facing marshall and Garner either.

Sure.. it's not Dhoni's fault that he is not facing McGrath (he did earlier though), and no one is saying Dhoni is successful because bowling is poor. I don't know where you get it from.. I said let Dhoni do it against good bowling attacks outside India more to DEFINITELY prove him best of all era.. I don't think there is anything wrong in performing against poor attacks (it's not Dhoni's fault that SL has poor attack), but if he maintains the same performance against good attacks, the argument of poor bowling attack automatically dies down, doesn't it ?



I can say Bevan played with the strongest team and had to just finish the game with RRR of 3/4 in the winning matches. Many players in today's era can change easily when RRR is under 5. As he has hardly chased when run rate is 8-9 I don't rate him. How does that logic sound ?

This is a valid argument from your side.. I think I agree with it.. but please remember Bevan isn't recognised because he had "easy chases only".. he played innings where he almost single-handedly (ALMOST) was the difference b/w Aus victory and defeat.. Now Dhoni has done it too, but I guess this particular section of your reply was talking about Bevan.. so I only replied about him.

If all he had done, was chase 3-4 RPO and had easy chases, he wouldn't be recognised that much, would he ? There are many who have done it.. I think we are confusing his S/R with "easy chases".

Please read my reply in bold..

 

[Garuda]

Please read my reply in bold..

Arey yaar. You always contradict your own comments.

Dhoni has done it in Aus and Eng. The only place he has not is SA and he has not played many matches there. So even if he does in India, SL, Eng, AUS, WI doesn't convince you and you are hell bent on just one country ? Why ? Is it not cherry picking ?

Where for Bevan I showed you how mos his successful chages he never had that pressure what dhoni faced and I can pick a country where Bevan is not done as good as other places. Chasing with a SR 3-4 is definitely easier than chasing 6+. So if you area saying Bevan's chage was not easier then why are you not considering Dhoni's chase which were more difficult than Bevan's ?

So, either you should put the same logic on both sides or just say its my opinion and don't want to see any fact.

 

[IndianWillow]

Agree with you. Centuries outside asia is a matter of concern for Dhoni in ODIs

Very few SC batsmen have a lot of ODI hundreds outside Asia.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=batting

Only Jayasurya has been an exception at 8 hundreds, even Sachin as an opener has only 4 in 20 years.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Arey yaar. You always contradict your own comments.

Dhoni has done it in Aus and Eng. The only place he has not is SA and he has not played many matches there. So even if he does in India, SL, Eng, AUS doesn't convince you and you are hell bent on just one country ? Why ? Is it not cherry picking ?

Where for Bevan I showed you how mos his successful chages he never had that pressure what dhoni faced and I can pick a country where Bevan is not done as good as other places.

So, either you should put the same logic on both sides or just say its my opinion and don't want to see any fact.

Where did I contradict myself ? Show me his good ODI innings against good bowling attacks in Aus/SA.. and I will take my argument back.. where did you come up with this fact that I contradicted myself ? Which statement of mine is contradictory ?

You are talking "in" Aus/SA .. I am emphasing "against" Aus/SA attacks in these places.. I remember his last tour to Aus, he did not do anything special.. In WC 2011, he was a flop throughout, and came good in one match, against, who ? SL again... SL are his bunny.. he is the reason why India started reversing the trend against SL..

Please show facts on these lines, and I will be happy to reverse my opinion. I am not hard bound to keep supporting Bevan against the facts... I would be more happy if Dhoni is proven better..


Just becasue you feel I contradict myself, isn't enough to prove my statements are contradictory.. please show my posts where I seem to do so.. as you like putting stats.. In fact I can show lot of your posts where you quoted me wrong (putting words in my mouth, yes)..

 

[IndianWillow]

If the asking target is 100 off 15 overs, both Dhoni and Bevan can do it consistently. If the asking target is 60 off 5 or 30 off 2 or 18 off 1, only Dhoni can do it. ( even accounting for change of era Dhoni is a much bigger hitter of the ball)

 

[Cricfan4eva]

I'm not sure but even Dhoni's centuries in Asia have come when he's batted between no.3 to no.5 which were during his early days. Now days he's stuck to no.6/7 and even then his centuries have dried up in India.

 

[vicky_iisc]

If the asking target is 100 off 15 overs, both Dhoni and Bevan can do it consistently. If the asking target is 60 off 5 or 30 off 2 or 18 off 1, only Dhoni can do it. ( even accounting for change of era Dhoni is a much bigger hitter of the ball)

Yes.. but 100/110 of 15 overs is equally difficult job and not 3/4 RPO..

if I (as captain/selector whoever) require 30 of 2, I will not go anywhere near Bevan.. will look the other way if he comes and asks me to bat for this over.. or at best tell him to go and fetch Dhoni..

 

[Garuda]

Where did I contradict myself ? Show me his good ODI innings against good bowling attacks in Aus/SA.. and I will take my argument back.. where did you come up with this fact that I contradicted myself ? Which statement of mine is contradictory ?

You don't read posts. Do you?

I clearly said while chasing he has played not many in SA ? What will he do manufacture one ?

In Aug he chased a class innings in VB series. Now you will come and say all bowlers in Aus team were not good. So he could do it. Right? That's also Dhoni's fault as Bevan always chased at 4 RPO against class bowlers.

You are talking "in" Aus/SA .. I am emphasing "against" Aus/SA attacks in these places.. I remember his last tour to Aus, he did not do anything special.. In WC 2011, he was a flop throughout, and came good in one match, against, who ? SL again... SL are his bunny.. he is the reason why India started reversing the trend against SL..

My point is you can not cherry pick. While talking about "all time" you take over all and he has done against Aus in Aus, Eng in Eng, SL in WI, SL in India and many other matches. What else you want ?

Please show facts on these lines, and I will be happy to reverse my opinion. I am not hard bound to keep supporting Bevan against the facts... I would be more happy if Dhoni is proven better..

See above. You not want to see facts which I have posted many in this thread. Use statsguru yourself to see.

Just becasue you feel I contradict myself, isn't enough to prove my statements are contradictory.. please show my posts where I seem to do so.. as you like putting stats.. In fact I can show lot of your posts where you quoted me wrong (putting words in my mouth, yes)..

You can't say something and when ppl challenge you, you come back with "don't put words into my mouth". So it's all others fault and not yours who without any stats sometimes blame poor bowling then come to specific country etc.

 

[Garuda]

If 15 needed of last over, I will always pick Dhoni over anyone else (with an exception of Klusener)..

If Dhoni hadn't played that innings in WC final, I would rate Bevan as better carrier of innings than Dhoni.

This was your quote. Can you explain what does that mean ?

Dhoni played that innings, So how still Bevan is better ? In one page you contradict yourself.

See, I am not putting anything in your mouth here. it's your own words.

 

[vicky_iisc]

You don't read posts. Do you?

I clearly said while chasing he has played not many in SA ? What will he do manufacture one ?

In Aug he chased a class innings in VB series. Now you will come and say all bowlers in Aus team were not good. So he could do it. Right? That's also Dhoni's fault as Bevan always chased at 4 RPO against class bowlers.



My point is you can not cherry pick. While talking about "all time" you take over all and he has done against Aus in Aus, Eng in Eng, SL in WI, SL in India and many other matches. What else you want ?



See above. You not want to see facts which I have posted many in this thread. Use statsguru yourself to see.



You can't say something and when ppl challenge you, you come back with "don't put words into my mouth". So it's all others fault and not yours who without any stats sometimes blame poor bowling then come to specific country etc.

Too long a reply.. but only replying to highlighted part.. which innings did he do well against Australia in Australia.. please show.. is it on the last tour ? Why will I say Aus bowlers were not good.. ? Please tell me which innings of VB series you are talking about ?

 

[Garuda]

Too long a reply.. but only replying to highlighted part.. which innings did he do well against Australia in Australia.. please show.. is it on the last tour ? Why will I say Aus bowlers were not good.. ? Please tell me which innings of VB series you are talking about ?

Enough videos in youtube. Help yourself

 

[vicky_iisc]

This was your quote. Can you explain what does that mean ?

Dhoni played that innings, So how still Bevan is better ? In one page you contradict yourself.

See, I am not putting anything in your mouth here. it's your own words.

Yes, you are not putting words in my mouth here (in this post).. I said it... but where is the contradiction ? Did I say anything opposite in other post ? Did I call Dhoni poor carrier of innings in any other post ? Show me the CONTRADICTION in my posts.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Enough videos in youtube. Help yourself

So I look in youtube to find out which innings you are talking about.. waah good one..

 

[vicky_iisc]

You can't say something and when ppl challenge you, you come back with "don't put words into my mouth". So it's all others fault and not yours who without any stats sometimes blame poor bowling then come to specific country etc.

No I can't say that.. it's only when people quote me wrongly, I have a right to correct them..

 

[Garuda]

Yes, you are not putting words in my mouth here (in this post).. I said it... but where is the contradiction ? Did I say anything opposite in other post ? Did I call Dhoni poor carrier of innings in any other post ? Show me the CONTRADICTION in my posts.

READ AGAIN

This is what you said

If Dhoni hadn't played that innings in WC final, I would rate Bevan as better carrier of innings than Dhoni.

Now Dhoni played that innings. Right ??

As per your post if he had not you would rate Bevan better.

Now Dhoni played it, So how come Bevan is still better than Dhoni?

Do you still not see the contradiction ?

 

[Garuda]

No I can't say that.. it's only when people quote me wrongly, I have a right to correct them..

No one is quoting you wrongly. You are contradicting yourself and doing argument for sake of it.

 

[Garuda]

So I look in youtube to find out which innings you are talking about.. waah good one..

Yes, the innings can be found easily.

You want others to do your home work when you donno which innings he played. But you can give a statement that Dhoni has not played anything in Aus.

 

[vicky_iisc]

READ AGAIN

This is what you said


Now Dhoni played that innings. Right ??

As per your post if he had not you would rate Bevan better.

Now Dhoni played it, So how come Bevan is still better than Dhoni?

Do you still not see the contradiction ?

I said.. if not for that WC innings, I will rate Bevan as "better carrier of innings" than Dhoni.. I missed saying "no contest".. or "much better" because of that WC 2011 innings, Dhoni has proved lot of doubts about his ability to carry the innings wrong.. that was such a good innings.

Now.. I also said this narrows the gap b/w Bevan and Dhoni in my eyes.. prior to that innings I wouldn't have agreed Dhoni to be almost equal to Bevan.. after that innings, he proves that doubt wrong.

I still feel he needs to do this more often because Bevan was a consistent "carrier of innings".. to me that is a bigger quality in ODI cricket than scoring 8 RPO to get 60 runs..

Again.. don't come and prove that I undermine Dhoni.. I don't .. I just want him to play such innings more and not against SL but others too.

 

[vicky_iisc]

No one is quoting you wrongly. You are contradicting yourself and doing argument for sake of it.

Should I put your posts where you quoted me wrongly.. ? I won't like to do that.. you can go
read them yourself.

For reference, search for "bowling attacks are all poor" "other batsmen are trash".. you will get them.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Yes, the innings can be found easily.

You want others to do your home work when you donno which innings he played. But you can give a statement that Dhoni has not played anything in Aus.

innings can be found if you give reference which one it is..

homework ?? Please say which innings and then I will look in youtube for that.

 

[Garuda]

I said.. I will rate Bevan as "better carrier of innings" than Dhoni.. I missed saying "no contest".. because of that WC 2011 innings, Dhoni has proved lot of doubts about his ability to carry the innings wrong.. that was such a good innings.

Now.. I also said this narrows the gap b/w Bevan and Dhoni in my eyes.. prior to that innings I wouldn't have agreed Dhoni to be almost equal to Bevan.. after that innings, he proves that doubt wrong.

I still feel he needs to do this more often because Bevan was a consistent "carrier of innings".. to me that is a bigger quality in ODI cricket than scoring 8 RPO to get 60 runs..

Again.. don't come and prove that I undermine Dhoni.. I don't .. I just want him to play such innings more and not against SL but others too.

Crap.You complain about ppl putting words into your mouth.

Sorry mate, you are doing it yourself.

Again, this is not what you said in the earlier post and please don't assume everyone as "Stupid". If you said something then own it and accept that you did it. Don't twist it for argument sake.

 

[Garuda]

innings can be found if you give reference which one it is..

homework ?? Please say which innings and then I will look in youtube for that.

VB series dhoni scored 40+ with a SR of almost 90+.

Find out in cricinfo or youtube.

Secondly. Dhoni's average in won matches in Australia is 112 which I know will not be enough for you.

 

[vicky_iisc]

VB series dhoni scored 40+ with a SR of almost 90+.

Find out in cricinfo or youtube.

Secondly. Dhoni's average in won matches in Australia is 112 which I know will not be enough for you.

Please give reference which innings you talking about .. VB series had SL as the other team also.. I am looking for results against AUS in AUS...

 

[Garuda]

You can't be that dumb even after given you how much he scored. There were 4 matches and you still can't find from that. Tells me something.

One example

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=1;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

 

[vicky_iisc]

Crap.You complain about ppl putting words into your mouth.

Sorry mate, you are doing it yourself.

Again, this is not what you said in the earlier post and please don't assume everyone as "Stupid". If you said something then own it and accept that you did it. Don't twist it for argument sake.

ha ha ha.. you are only trying to prove non-existant things.. you assumed I mean something by a statement I made (without looking at the context), and when I clarify that you are getting my point wrong, you come up with a "Fact" I did not mean that .. I will know what I mean, right ?

I don't complain wrongly, when I said you are putting words in my mouth.. I have given you the reference.. please look where you have quoted me wrongly and then questioned me on points which I did not say. Look in the mirror yourself buddy before saying others are wrong.

 

[vicky_iisc]

You can't be that dumb even after given you how much he scored. There were 4 matches and you still can't find from that. Tells me something.

One example

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=1;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

Hmm.. now let us analyse all 4 innings, shall we ? 112 Average.. ha ha ha.. you are highlighting it ? Also we should include "lost" against Aus if that's alright with you ?

If you agree, I will carry my analysis in the next post.. including "lost" matches too.

 

[Garuda]

ha ha ha.. you are only trying to prove non-existant things.. you assumed I mean something by a statement I made (without looking at the context), and when I clarify that you are getting my point wrong, you come up with a "Fact" I did not mean that .. I will know what I mean, right ?

I don't complain wrongly, when I said you are putting words in my mouth.. I have given you the reference.. please look where you have quoted me wrongly and then questioned me on points which I did not say. Look in the mirror yourself buddy before saying others are wrong.

I am not the only person who (mis)understood your classic post where you meant something and post something.

There are other ppl who quoted your same post to show how confused you are.

So I will leave it that. Cuz you feel you can post something and meant something else. Not your fault though.

 

[Garuda]

Hmm.. now let us analyse all 4 innings, shall we ? 112 Average.. ha ha ha.. you are highlighting it ? Also we should include "lost" against Aus if that's alright with you ?

If you agree, I will carry my analysis in the next post.. including "lost" matches too.

So, you want to analyze each match (lost matches too) to disprove Dhoni ?? wow.

So, the argument now from good finisher to analyze the cause of the lost match ?


Before doing that can you give me 3 matches like Dhoni played in WC 2011, The VB series and the last one in WI by Bevan in his own country ?

Where the match is of same importance with same pressure and similar RRR.

 

[vicky_iisc]

I am not the only person who (mis)understood your classic post where you meant something and post something.

There are other ppl who quoted your same post to show how confused you are.

So I will leave it that. Cuz you feel you can post something and meant something else. Not your fault though.

I can not claim myself to be perfect poster, no one is.. many times I wrote something more than I should have.. and sometimes less than I should have ... but it should be looked in the context.. the particular post which you are quoting here had a context (it was much before we started arguing with each other this rigourously). Anyway, if my post was not self sufficient, I am responsible for it.. at least I should have used words "much better" or "no contest" to avoid confusion. It was lack of few associative words which you took wrongly, and I should take some blame for it as I wrote them.

As bad a poster I am, I do not take anyone's words, extrapolate them to make them look different, and then ask him what did you mean by it ? Reference : "all bowling attacks are poor", "other batsmen are trash" etc.

 

[Garuda]

I can not claim myself to be perfect poster, no one is.. many times I wrote something more than I should have.. and sometimes less than I should have ... but it should be looked in the context.. the particular post which you are quoting here had a context (it was much before we started arguing with each other this rigourously). Anyway, if my post was not self sufficient, I am responsible for it.. at least I should have used words "much better" or "no contest" to avoid confusion. It was lack of few associative words which you took wrongly, and I should take some blame for it as I wrote them.

As bad a poster I am, I do not take anyone's words, extrapolate them to make them look different, and then ask him what did you mean by it ? Reference : "all bowling attacks are poor", "other batsmen are trash" etc.

So now from I meant something else to I am a bad poster and used wrong words.

But anyway, don't ask again that ppl put words in your mouth atleast as you do not communicate what you meant. "As per your acceptance again". Not my words nor I am putting anything in your mouth.

 

[vicky_iisc]

So, you want to analyze each match (lost matches too) to disprove Dhoni ?? wow.

So, the argument now from good finisher to analyze the cause of the lost match ?

No, the argument is overall performance "including" but not only lost matches..even if you analyse won matches also, these 4, I can argue which one of them had Dhoni as a reason.


Before doing that can you give me 3 matches like Dhoni played in WC 2011, The VB series and the last one in WI by Bevan in his own country ?

Where the match is of same importance with same pressure and similar RRR.

Hmm.. you have a good point here.

but you are asking for Bevan's innings in his own country similar to these 3 innings ? Dhoni played these 3 in 3 different countries.. Plus, you agree VB series league match was of importance ? Also how important was the tri series final ? I have no problem accepting your view, but many here called it meaningless tri series ?

Please answer these, before I start my analysis.

My reply in bold.

 

[vicky_iisc]

So now from I meant something else to I am a bad poster and used wrong words.

But anyway, don't ask again that ppl put words in your mouth atleast as you do not communicate what you meant. "As per your acceptance again". Not my words nor I am putting anything in your mouth.

Yes.. for once you did not put words in my mouth.. you only capitalized on my missing "much" in "I would rate Bevan as MUCH better carrier of innings than Dhoni".. that was your only good catch.. you were looking for it I guess... congrats. BTW, I meant something else is only the missing of "much" there.. and nothing else.. come on..

It doesn't mean that my earlier allegation of you putting words in my mouth was wrong.. sorry .. you can't hide behind my mistake..you quoted me wrongly, that is a bigger crime than missing a word here or there.

You are laughing at me as if you never miss any word.. you are a bigger wrong poster because you quote me wrongly.. and never accept it too.. even after showing you references.. you keep ignoring that part, don't you ?

 

[Canistani Hero]

Dhoni is phenomenal but when it comes to finishing - Bevan was in a league of his own. That Eoin Morgan chap showed real shades of Bev for a bit

 

[vicky_iisc]

Dhoni is phenomenal but when it comes to finishing - Bevan was in a league of his own. That Eoin Morgan chap showed real shades of Bev for a bit

You mean Bevan was better than Dhoni as finisher ??

 

[Garuda]

Yes.. for once you did not put words in my mouth.. you only capitalized on my missing "much" in "I would rate Bevan as MUCH better carrier of innings than Dhoni".. that was your only good catch.. you were looking for it I guess... congrats. BTW, I meant something else is only the missing of "much" there.. and nothing else.. come on..

It doesn't mean that my earlier allegation of you putting words in my mouth was wrong.. sorry .. you can't hide behind my mistake..you quoted me wrongly, that is a bigger crime than missing a word here or there.

You are laughing at me as if you never miss any word.. you are a bigger wrong poster because you quote me wrongly.. and never accept it too.. even after showing you references.. you keep ignoring that part, don't you ?

I am not laughing at you or on anything as I am not arguing on missing words.

I took your posts as it is. You are the one who is trying to argue on what you missed and what you actually meant.

 

[vicky_iisc]

repeat..

 

[vicky_iisc]

Since u didn't watch bevan innings, u can never compare dhoni and bevan.Those who watched dhoni and bevan will put dhoni ahead of bevan.Bevan was great batsman but he didnt have capability to slog.He was good in running between wicket and thats it.Dhoni is not only good in finishing but has also played some fabulous innings as top order batsman.

Some of Bevan's good innings where the RPO wasn't much, but the difficulty Australia was in, quite apparent.. e.g. against India in Goa where they were 5-195 and 6-202 chasing 265.. I watched that match, and was cursing Bevan.. if he wasn't there, match was in India's grasp, he took it away.. when other celebrated batsmen in his team faltered.. it was a series deciding victory.. and we were praying for Bevan's wicket even before Waugh/Symonds.. the way he carried the innings on, without looking in any hurry or trouble..

Now it is not to compare him with anyone else, .. just to show that he had more in him than "rotating the strike".. and "running b/w the wicket.. "


http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65552.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64550.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64655.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64665.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64711.html

 

[IndianWillow]

Some of Bevan's good innings where the RPO wasn't much, but the difficulty Australia was in, quite apparent.. e.g. against India in Goa where they were 5-195 and 6-202 chasing 265.. I watched that match, and was cursing Bevan.. if he wasn't there, match was in India's grasp, he took it away.. when other celebrated batsmen in his team faltered.. it was a series deciding victory.. and we were praying for Bevan's wicket even before Waugh/Symonds.. the way he carried the innings on, without looking in any hurry or trouble..

Now it is not to compare him with anyone else, .. just to show that he had more in him than "rotating the strike".. and "running b/w the wicket.. "


http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65552.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64550.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64655.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64665.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64711.html

Of course a batsman who averaged 50+ and played 200+ games must have had some really good games. But Dhoni is more versatile and can be expected to make an impact on any match, whether it be batting ahead, anchor and assault, late charge or an incredible finish. Dhoni can do everything Bevan did, but Bevan could not do every thing Dhoni does, and he surely did not have the fire power to chase down improbable asking rates.