MS Dhoni is better than Michael Bevan - He is the BEST finisher of the game

[Garuda]

Some of Bevan's good innings where the RPO wasn't much, but the difficulty Australia was in, quite apparent.. e.g. against India in Goa where they were 5-195 and 6-202 chasing 265.. I watched that match, and was cursing Bevan.. if he wasn't there, match was in India's grasp, he took it away.. when other celebrated batsmen in his team faltered.. it was a series deciding victory.. and we were praying for Bevan's wicket even before Waugh/Symonds.. the way he carried the innings on, without looking in any hurry or trouble..

Now it is not to compare him with anyone else, .. just to show that he had more in him than "rotating the strike".. and "running b/w the wicket.. "


http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65552.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64550.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64655.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64665.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64711.html

And you feel Dhoni has not played any innings like this ??


Running between wickets and rotating strikes ? Can dhoni do what he is doing without those things ?

Dhoni does both of them PLUS big hitting when RRR is too high. That is where Bevan falls behind.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Of course a batsman who averaged 50+ and played 200+ games must have had some really good games. But Dhoni is more versatile and can be expected to make an impact on any match, whether it be batting ahead, anchor and assault, late charge or an incredible finish. Dhoni can do everything Bevan did, but Bevan could not do every thing Dhoni does, and he surely did not have the fire power to chase down improbable asking rates.

Not entirely true though (the highlighted part).. I am yet to see Dhoni play the rescue effort of the kind Bevan did.. and not against SL attack of current era.. but Eng/SA/Aus kind of good attacks.. with back to the wall efforts.. and carrying the innings.

I saw Bevan's efforts and coming up with the kind of innings against almost all good attacks..

In his 10 matches in Aus, I did not see a single class innings (that six in the last over was not a class innings by any means, it was made to look better because of that six).. Now if I missed any, please show me..

In WC 2011, he played only 1 good innings, that came against ? SL.. now request all not to take this sentence as undemining Dhoni in any sense.. but there still remains something to be proven.

Dhoni has time, and he may do it in future.. he is certainly a much better batsman this decade than he was in the previous one.. so given more chances he can do it..

 

[Garuda]

Not entirely true though (the highlighted part).. I am yet to see Dhoni play the rescue effort of the kind Bevan did.. and not against SL attack of current era.. but Eng/SA/Aus kind of good attacks.. with back to the wall efforts.. and carrying the innings.

I saw Bevan's efforts and coming up with the kind of innings against almost all good attacks..

In his 10 matches in Aus, I did not see a single class innings (that six in the last over was not a class innings by any means, it was made to look better because of that six).. Now if I missed any, please show me..

In WC 2011, he played only 1 good innings, that came against ? SL.. now request all not to take this sentence as undemining Dhoni in any sense.. but there still remains something to be proven.

Dhoni has time, and he may do it in future.. he is certainly a much better batsman this decade than he was in the previous one.. so given more chances he can do it..

Bottom line is you do not want to agree that Dhoni is better than Bevan.

Even if Dhoni play in England, you will find excuse of him not doing it against SA.

If he does against SA, you will find excuse of if Steyn was playing or not. so on and on.

 

[vicky_iisc]

And you feel Dhoni has not played any innings like this ??


Running between wickets and rotating strikes ? Can dhoni do what he is doing without those things ?

Dhoni does both of them PLUS big hitting when RRR is too high. That is where Bevan falls behind.

You have a habit of jumping in.. don't you ? I replied to his comment of "running b/w the wickets thats it".. read the post which my reply was to, before extrapolating and bringing Dhoni again somehow..

If I put Bevan's innings, does it automatically imply that I mean Dhoni hasn't played any innings like that ? First read the context, the post I replied to, then jump with your reply.

If you missed it, here it is again :

Now it is not to compare him with anyone else, .. just to show that he had more in him than "rotating the strike".. and "running b/w the wicket.. "


Not every post praising someone is a way to undermine someone else, even in a comparison thread such as this..

Just look at the post I replied to.

 

[IndianWillow]

Not entirely true though (the highlighted part).. I am yet to see Dhoni play the rescue effort of the kind Bevan did.. and not against SL attack of current era.. but Eng/SA/Aus kind of good attacks.. with back to the wall efforts.. and carrying the innings.

I saw Bevan's efforts and coming up with the kind of innings against almost all good attacks..

In his 10 matches in Aus, I did not see a single class innings (that six in the last over was not a class innings by any means, it was made to look better because of that six).. Now if I missed any, please show me..

In WC 2011, he played only 1 good innings, that came against ? SL.. now request all not to take this sentence as undemining Dhoni in any sense.. but there still remains something to be proven.

Dhoni has time, and he may do it in future.. he is certainly a much better batsman this decade than he was in the previous one.. so given more chances he can do it..

And what is this? A century at 5/29 against a vicious Pakistani bowling attack.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/589308.html

I can put up my hands and say that Bevan never performed a rescue act of this magnitude at any point.

 

[Garuda]

You have a habit of jumping in.. don't you ? I replied to his comment of "running b/w the wickets thats it".. read the post which my reply was to, before extrapolating and bringing Dhoni again somehow..

If I put Bevan's innings, does it automatically imply that I mean Dhoni hasn't played any innings like that ? First read the context, the post I replied to, then jump with your reply.

If you missed it, here it is again :

Now it is not to compare him with anyone else, .. just to show that he had more in him than "rotating the strike".. and "running b/w the wicket.. "


Not every post praising someone is a way to undermine someone else, even in a comparison thread such as this..

Just look at the post I replied to.

Your point is not to praise bevan.

You are trying to prove bevan is better finisher than Dhoni even if Dhoni has showed it many times.

You are trying to find and see what and where Dhoni has not done to discard what he has done. But you are not okay to discard Bevan for him never chased something with a RRR what Dhoni chased many times.

I am not jumping but you are moving goal posts.

 

[Garuda]

And what is this? A century at 5/29 against a vicious Pakistani bowling attack.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/589308.html

I can put up my hands and say that Bevan never performed a rescue act of this magnitude at any point.

Wait till he comes back and asks you

What was the time and where the sun was and from which direction the wind was blowing to discard that innings.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Bottom line is you do not want to agree that Dhoni is better than Bevan.

Even if Dhoni play in England, you will find excuse of him not doing it against SA.

If he does against SA, you will find excuse of if Steyn was playing or not. so on and on.

I don't disagree with anyone saying Dhoni is better than Bevan either.. in my eyes the gap is small enough to go either way.. and I hope in future it turns Dhoni's way..

Why will I look for excuses to find fault in Dhoni ? We do such things when we dislike someone, and find ways to undermine him in anyway.. I have no such dislike for him..


I have problem only when someone calls Bevan "a rotator of strike or good runner that's it".. if you care to look at some of my earlier posts here in this thread, you will get the context clear when people were saying these things.

 

[vicky_iisc]

And what is this? A century at 5/29 against a vicious Pakistani bowling attack.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/589308.html

I can put up my hands and say that Bevan never performed a rescue act of this magnitude at any point.

Yes, it was a good one... better than WC hundred.. got to give him that.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Wait till he comes back and asks you

What was the time and where the sun was and from which direction the wind was blowing to discard that innings.

No, I didn't do that, sorry to disappoint you..

 

[Garuda]

In WC 2011, he played only 1 good innings, that came against ? SL.. now request all not to take this sentence as undemining Dhoni in any sense.. but there still remains something to be proven.

Now you are joking.

So a bowling line up with Murali and Malinga are not good for you?

You forgot it was WC FINAL. The team don't reach the final with joker bowlers.

By saying "You are not undermining" is not gonna help as you are undermining his innings. If not can you explain if you are praising it ? what is the purpose of that line saying "it was against ? SL ...." means?

 

[vicky_iisc]

Your point is not to praise bevan.

You are trying to prove bevan is better finisher than Dhoni even if Dhoni has showed it many times.

You are trying to find and see what and where Dhoni has not done to discard what he has done. But you are not okay to discard Bevan for him never chased something with a RRR what Dhoni chased many times.

I am not jumping but you are moving goal posts.

First of all, after our yesterday's exchange of words.. I decided not to indulge in discussion with you (for whatever reason)..

I replied to a post much above, and chose not to reply to you, because we were getting personal and perhaps blaming each other more than the topic..

Now, I know what I am trying to do with each of my posts, right ? Who are you to say my point was not to praise Bevan..?

Let us not discuss with each other.. as we are not hitting good vibes.

 

[Garuda]

Yes, it was a good one... better than WC hundred.. got to give him that.

If WC final had put Dhoni close to Bevan (according to your words), does this innings take him ahead ?


Or you still see gap ?

How about giving example of Bevan's innings which can match this innings or WC final innings ?

 

[vicky_iisc]

Now you are joking.

So a bowling line up with Murali and Malinga are not good for you?

You forgot it was WC FINAL. The team don't reach the final with joker bowlers.

By saying "You are not undermining" is not gonna help as you are undermining his innings. If not can you explain if you are praising it ? what is the purpose of that line saying "it was against ? SL ...." means?

I can explain it very well, only if you remove the lens you use to look at each of my replies as something else than what I mean.

It is perhaps my problem that I could not get my point across to you, you can either trust me to know what I mean and take my comments in the spirit I want them to be taken, or let us not discuss with each other.

It has been around 50 posts we have been discussing and almost fighting with each other.. I feel if I am still not able to get my intention across to you, some more will not help me.

 

[Garuda]

First of all, after our yesterday's exchange of words.. I decided not to indulge in discussion with you (for whatever reason)..

I replied to a post much above, and chose not to reply to you, because we were getting personal and perhaps blaming each other more than the topic..

Now, I know what I am trying to do with each of my posts, right ? Who are you to say my point was not to praise Bevan..?

Let us not discuss with each other.. as we are not hitting good vibes.

Where is personal here ?

I am taking your words only and it was in context with your post and I am not talking about your personal life. You are talking about Bevan and all my posts are related to that and what you are tryihng to say regarding Bevan. Show me a post where I am talking anything other than that ?

When one can't argue logically, peopel start doing this and become defensive.

I can understand that. If you do not have anything else then fair enough and I am not dying to discuss the same thing again and again.

But remember this is a public forum and if you claim something people will challenge you and you have to back your claim. Nothing personal about it.

 

[vicky_iisc]

If WC final had put Dhoni close to Bevan (according to your words), does this innings take him ahead ?


Or you still see gap ?

How about giving example of Bevan's innings which can match this innings or WC final innings ?

I gave a few innings of Bevan.. and the reason I appreciate him as a chaser.. please look at my first post today (in reply to that gentleman who called him as "runner only")..

You will find some gems there.. and you can compare the difficulty levels ..

With this innings against Pakistan (hundred), my inclination is moving towards Dhoni..

 

[Garuda]

I can explain it very well, only if you remove the lens you use to look at each of my replies as something else than what I mean.

It is perhaps my problem that I could not get my point across to you, you can either trust me to know what I mean and take my comments in the spirit I want them to be taken, or let us not discuss with each other.

It has been around 50 posts we have been discussing and almost fighting with each other.. I feel if I am still not able to get my intention across to you, some more will not help me.

Please explain.

Why do you mentioned that Dhoni's WC final was against ?? SL ....

if you are not degrading his innings?

 

[Garuda]

I gave a few innings of Bevan.. and the reason I appreciate him as a chaser.. please look at my first post today (in reply to that gentleman who called him as "runner only")..

You will find some gems there.. and you can compare the difficulty levels ..

With this innings against Pakistan (hundred), my inclination is moving towards Dhoni..

What does that mean?

Still a gap or you feel Dhoni has passed Bevan as a chaser and finisher?

 

[vicky_iisc]

Where is personal here ?

I am taking your words only and it was in context with your post and I am not talking about your personal life. You are talking about Bevan and all my posts are related to that and what you are tryihng to say regarding Bevan. Show me a post where I am talking anything other than that ?

When one can't argue logically, peopel start doing this and become defensive.

I can understand that. If you do not have anything else then fair enough and I am not dying to discuss the same thing again and again.

But remember this is a public forum and if you claim something people will challenge you and you have to back your claim. Nothing personal about it.

By personal, I meant not personal life (see again a misunderstanding ) you know we were not having an honest discussion.. there was a lack of trust in the postings where I feared you were putting words in my mouth and you felt I was underming Dhoni just for the sake of it..

There was kind of personal attack (honest discussion/moving the goalpost etc.) you can refer to posts above to see it happened (Do not want to get into who was at fault, but I thought we were generating more heat.)

 

[Garuda]

By personal, I meant not personal life (see again a misunderstanding ) you know we were not having an honest discussion.. there was a lack of trust in the postings where I feared you were putting words in my mouth and you felt I was underming Dhoni just for the sake of it..

There was kind of personal attack (honest discussion/moving the goalpost etc.) you can refer to posts above to see it happened (Do not want to get into who was at fault, but I thought we were generating more heat.)

I really don't think there was any personal attack. It was always comment about the post or the content in the post.

I really don't care if you degrade Dhoni's innings as in so many years of my posting in PP, no one can tell if I have any allignment to any particular player.

I challenged you as you claim something without substantial proof or data to back it up.

As you know by now, I have been watching and following cricket and have seen Bevan's entire career and so as Dhoni's. So either I need good enough reason for your claim or to me it's just someone's feeling without any fact behind it.

Nothing personal and my apology if you feel that way.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Please explain.

Why do you mentioned that Dhoni's WC final was against ?? SL ....

if you are not degrading his innings?

I feel that Dhoni has a comfort level against SL and enjoys playing against them.. almost (not all) his good innings for which he is credited (and let's be honest, WC2011 final was the turning point).. have come against SL.

Malinga and Murali are not bad bowlers.. but Murali was declining (and had an injury in final).. and Malinga has never been successful against India (please don't hype never).

If I see that he played in that WC against Eng/SA/Aus/Pak and did not score any run.. and he scores against SL.. and does it consistently against them... it would put some doubt in me whether he can do it in tougher conditions/other good attacks ?

Performing against SL is not a walk in the park, but if you see the difference.. CB series also, he did not play that well against Aus.. and that kind of puts doubt in my mind.

 

[vicky_iisc]

I really don't think there was any personal attack. It was always comment about the post or the content in the post.

I really don't care if you degrade Dhoni's innings as in so many years of my posting in PP, no one can tell if I have any allignment to any particular player.

I challenged you as you claim something without substantial proof or data to back it up.

As you know by now, I have been watching and following cricket and have seen Bevan's entire career and so as Dhoni's. So either I need good enough reason for your claim or to me it's just someone's feeling without any fact behind it.

Nothing personal and my apology if you feel that way.

I know there was no personal attack on each other in the way you clarify.. but I felt that we were discussing things while requesting each other to "not put words in my mouth/don't open your mouth/moving the goalpost" etc.

I didn't doubt you had a fair knowledge, if you were a troll (or a blind supporter of Dhoni, as some others were) I wouldn't care to explain so many times to you. I respected your knowledge and even your cross questioning on my impression. Nothing wrong with that, I only had problem with you sometimes extrapolating my sentence and ask me on something which I did not say. Also picking a post and saying that I lack the consistency, when I happened to miss providing the context.. I felt that you were questioning my honesty (in discussion).

Since we don't know each other, it is obvious the public forum discussion can get ugly if the trust is not there. I fully agree you have a right to question my comment/opinion and it is welcome. I am not one of those, who will discard it saying "Its my opinion and that's it".. I agree every opinion can be questioned/challenged/corrected.

You see with the discussion, my opinion is changing here itself..

Apology from my side too..

 

[vicky_iisc]

What does that mean?

Still a gap or you feel Dhoni has passed Bevan as a chaser and finisher?

It means as a carrier of innings Dhoni has one more to show than WC 2011 (he may have had more, but I don't know all) and against a better attack + back against the wall (5/29)..

I will have to reanalyse and compare again.. can you give me sometime to form my opinion with a fresh look ? Will reply tomorrow.

 

[vicky_iisc]

And what is this? A century at 5/29 against a vicious Pakistani bowling attack.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/589308.html

I can put up my hands and say that Bevan never performed a rescue act of this magnitude at any point.

I have already agreed Dhoni's innings was class here, which you showed.

About the second part..

not exactly the same kind of innings, but worth it's weight in gold.. from 6-112/ 8-135 to win the game chasing 208.. which was gone for good..

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65269.html

 

[IndianWillow]

I have already agreed Dhoni's innings was class here, which you showed.

About the second part..

not exactly the same kind of innings, but worth it's weight in gold.. from 6-112/ 8-135 to win the game chasing 208.. which was gone for good..

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65269.html

Yeah, that was a gem. But Bichel's contribution was equal in that stand. I remember Bichel clubbing some quick runs late in that game.

With Dhoni, he would not need so much help from an explosive Bichel to make the winning runs because he can score much faster.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Yeah, that was a gem. But Bichel's contribution was equal in that stand. I remember Bichel clubbing some quick runs late in that game.

With Dhoni, he would not need so much help from an explosive Bichel to make the winning runs because he can score much faster.

Yes, Bichel was good, he was even better in the next version here :

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65279.html

Still, you will find Bevan an almost constant in such rescue acts.. from 7/84 to 181/8.. he was supported by Bichel in both (even though Bichel scored more here), but you can see the reliance/expectation was on Bevan.. not Bichel.. Bichel could come and throw his bat around and no one would doubt that, but Bevan had a responsibilty of rescuing them.. which he did again. I watched this game too, and commentators were saying that it was Bevan who is the difference..

In the earlier game (against Eng), I am sure if Bichel did not score at 94 SR, Bevan would have found a way, as the required run rate wasn't the main issue, it was the wickets. By the time Lee got out, they needed 70 of 72, Bevan would have done it even if Bichel or anyone just stayed.

 

[vicky_iisc]

See this one :

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64550.html

3-58 chasing 287 and SR of over 100.. against bowling attack of Donald/Pollock and in SA.. though supported by Waugh.. but you will expect support..


Or the best ODI match of all time :
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65233.html

4-68.. Bevan joins Waugh and then Waugh goes at 6-158.. Bevan carries it to 213 (again partly supported by Waugh), the importance of this match is not needed to be explained and against the best attack of the 99 WC.

Or this one :

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64665.html

3-37 to 259-4 (joins Waugh again)..

Against NZ: some people rate it as his best..

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64655.html

2-34 chasing 245.. here Hayden goes at 130..

 

[vicky_iisc]

Another against NZ:

This is perhaps better (sorry quoted wrong innings as his best earlier) against NZ attack including Shane Bond who took 4-38 to rock Australian top order.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65624.html

5-65, 6-82, 7-143 to chase 245 with a 102 of 95 deliveries.. and no other significant supporting contribution, next best Warne 29 .

 

[Garuda]

Another against NZ:

This is perhaps better (sorry quoted wrong innings as his best earlier) against NZ attack including Shane Bond who took 4-38 to rock Australian top order.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65624.html

5-65, 6-82, 7-143 to chase 245 with a 102 of 95 deliveries.. and no other significant supporting contribution, next best Warne 29 .

First of all your view of this bowler is better than that bowler is wrong when you look at batsmen's performance.

You don't consider performance against Malinga as one batsman play him bettter.

You will not rate Sachin's performance against warne because he always plays well against Warne. What is the logic?

 

[Garuda]

^^ One can argue, can you find a Bavan innings like Dhoni played against Pak or vs SL ?

I will only rate Bevan if you can find one better innings than Dhoni played and it has to be against SL or Pak.

It was easy for Bevan to play against NZ/ENG/SA as they are similar kind of pitches and bowlers like his home condition.

Do you see anything wrong in this demand?

 

[vicky_iisc]

First of all your view of this bowler is better than that bowler is wrong when you look at batsmen's performance.

You don't consider performance against Malinga as one batsman play him bettter.

You will not rate Sachin's performance against warne because he always plays well against Warne. What is the logic?

Perhaps you replied to wrong post .. this thing I said in earlier post about Dhoni's comfort against SL..

This particular series of posts is about Bevan's rescue innings which IndianWillow asked me to provide.

 

[vicky_iisc]

^^ One can argue, can you find a Bavan innings like Dhoni played against Pak or vs SL ?

I will only rate Bevan if you can find one better innings than Dhoni played and it has to be against SL or Pak.

It was easy for Bevan to play against NZ/ENG/SA as they are similar kind of pitches and bowlers like his home condition.

Do you see anything wrong in this demand?

I can show what's wrong in this demand.. if you are asking me a Bevan "rescue" innings against SL, it would be difficult to find... but if his performance against SL drops as compared to others, then your demand is valid.. it is not possible to show "rescue" efforts, but say if he scores 80s against SA/NZ/Eng but scores 30s against SL.. your demand is valid.

I tried to find his innings against SL.. but most of them were DNB perhaps wasn't required ? Will look for performance against PAK now.

 

[Garuda]

Perhaps you replied to wrong post .. this thing I said in earlier post about Dhoni's comfort against SL..

This particular series of posts is about Bevan's rescue innings which IndianWillow asked me to provide.

No, it's includes all.

There you didn't rate it because it was SL bowlers even if Malinga and murali.

Here you say "including Shane bond" and rated it because there was Shane bond Bowling. As if Shane bond bowled all 10 overs to him and no one can sustain one over against shane bond.

So your rating of bowlers when you are comparing performance of batsmen is wrong as the batsman in his innings in not just facing one bowler.

Shane bond is not that superior to Malinga and Murali.

 

[Garuda]

I can show what's wrong in this demand.. if you are asking me a Bevan "rescue" innings against SL, it would be difficult to find... but if his performance against SL drops as compared to others, then your demand is valid.. it is not possible to show "rescue" efforts, but say if he scores 80s against SA/NZ/Eng but scores 30s against SL.. your demand is valid.

I tried to find his innings against SL.. but most of them were DNB perhaps wasn't required ? Will look for performance against PAK now.

So why are you demanding a performance against Aus and SA for Dhoni ?

He averages 112 against Australia and has played very few matches in SA. He is as sood as in England too.

So why demand a SA performance for Dhoni while ignoring same logic for Bevan ?

 

[vicky_iisc]

So why are you demanding a performance against Aus and SA for Dhoni ?

He averages 112 against Australia and has played very few matches in SA. He is as sood as in England too.

So why demand a SA performance for Dhoni while ignoring same logic for Bevan ?

I am not demanding performance against SA/Aus .. I am/was just reserving my right to the day when he does perform against them in Aus/SA..

112 average against Australia ? He averages 40 against them and 45 in Aus..

That 112 average might be 4 won matches where his scores are 17*, 15*, 36, 44*.. (only 44* as something noteworthy)

He played 10 matches overall in Aus.. not enough to judge either way.. not outs are not his fault.. but 112 average is not the correct picture.

 

[mr.crickett]

No one can ever match majestic bevan. He was a better run chaser than dhoni.

 

[vicky_iisc]

No, it's includes all.

There you didn't rate it because it was SL bowlers even if Malinga and murali.

Here you say "including Shane bond" and rated it because there was Shane bond Bowling. As if Shane bond bowled all 10 overs to him and no one can sustain one over against shane bond.

So your rating of bowlers when you are comparing performance of batsmen is wrong as the batsman in his innings in not just facing one bowler.

Shane bond is not that superior to Malinga and Murali.

Shane Bond rocked their top order and was destructive in that game with 4-38.. can you look at the score board again for that game before we discuss it further ? Malinga took 2 early wickets in final.. but when Dhoni came, India was 3-114.. Kohli and Gambhir were also playing as well.. and many agree Gambhir carried it (he came at 0-1 and went at 225).. I had a discussion already on this thread perhaps, so don;t want to start Gambhir-Dhoni again.

I rate Murali highly, but need to look at his performance in India also.. he was injured in the final too.. so not bowling at his best..

Dhoni's innings against Pak is different though and better than his innings in WC 2011 final. It forced me to reconsider my decision.. so I am 50-50 now.. just posting some Bevan innings along the way.. my opinion I will take some time to decide (requested you to give me time also)..

 

[Garuda]

I am not demanding performance against SA/Aus .. I am/was just reserving my right to the day when he does perform against them in Aus/SA..

112 average against Australia ? He averages 40 against them and 45 in Aus..

That 112 average might be 4 won matches where his scores are 17*, 15*, 36, 44*.. (only 44* as something noteworthy)

He played 10 matches overall in Aus.. not enough to judge either way.. not outs are not his fault.. but 112 average is not the correct picture.

I think we are talking about successful run chases. And yes, if he plays 4 then 1 will be noteworthy. Are you saying all Bevan innings were class ?

secondly, 10 matches is not enough for you but you rejected dhoni because of his performance in SA. It's even less than 10.

So are you saying Bevan has played majestic innings in every country more than 10 ?

You do not apply the same logic to both sides.

 

[vicky_iisc]

^^ One can argue, can you find a Bavan innings like Dhoni played against Pak or vs SL ?

I will only rate Bevan if you can find one better innings than Dhoni played and it has to be against SL or Pak.

It was easy for Bevan to play against NZ/ENG/SA as they are similar kind of pitches and bowlers like his home condition.

Do you see anything wrong in this demand?

As you requested, Bevan's rescue innings against Pakistan :

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65552.html

 

[vicky_iisc]

I think we are talking about successful run chases. And yes, if he plays 4 then 1 will be noteworthy. Are you saying all Bevan innings were class ?

secondly, 10 matches is not enough for you but you rejected dhoni because of his performance in SA. It's even less than 10.

So are you saying Bevan has played majestic innings in every country more than 10 ?

You do not apply the same logic to both sides.

Rejected ??? Sorry, this is what I call putting the words in my mouth.. let me say it again..

I reserve my right to the day when he performs against these two sides.. does not mean I rejected him saying his record is poor.. it is not great till now.. if it seemed otherwise, then perhaps miscommunication.

10 matches is not enough to judge either way. But if he had done well in 3-4 of them, it would have been enough to judge in his favour..

 

[Electron]

What was Bevan's career strike rate ?? Dhoni is easily better.. People not accepting the obvious are blind haters.

 

[Garuda]

As you requested, Bevan's rescue innings against Pakistan :

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65552.html

182 total to get. Do you know Dhoni can chase that in a T20. Come on is this the best you can show for the best finisher or chaser in of all time ?

He had to play at a strike rate of 50 which means he had double the balls against the runs needed. Lehman, Law and Bichel scored more than 50 in lower order.

It was in Australia.

If you do not consider Dhoni's performances in his home country why you rate a relaxed run rate chase of Bevan in his home country so high ?

Double standard ?

 

[vicky_iisc]

I think we are talking about successful run chases. And yes, if he plays 4 then 1 will be noteworthy. Are you saying all Bevan innings were class ?

secondly, 10 matches is not enough for you but you rejected dhoni because of his performance in SA. It's even less than 10.

So are you saying Bevan has played majestic innings in every country more than 10 ?

You do not apply the same logic to both sides.

I can argue even that 44* was not a majestic innings (it was made to look better because of that six), but won't be able to convince you on that..

 

[Garuda]

I can argue even that 44* was not a majestic innings (it was made to look better because of that six), but won't be able to convince you on that..

So why you think 3 runs per over is majestic but hitting a six in last over is not ?

 

[Garuda]

Rejected ??? Sorry, this is what I call putting the words in my mouth.. let me say it again..

I reserve my right to the day when he performs against these two sides.. does not mean I rejected him saying his record is poor.. it is not great till now.. if it seemed otherwise, then perhaps miscommunication.

10 matches is not enough to judge either way. But if he had done well in 3-4 of them, it would have been enough to judge in his favour..

Rejected in the sense when you compare against any Bevan's innings.

Bevan plays a innings against Shane Bond and is better for you.

But a WC final against Malinga/murali is second to that.

Why ? It is rejection in this regard.


Dhoni's WC was a great innings and everyone except you will rate it. How many people remember Bevan innings against NZ ? I am very sure you also used Cricinfo to find an innings to show it for your argument.

 

[vicky_iisc]

182 total to get. Do you know Dhoni can chase that in a T20. Come on is this the best you can show for the best finisher or chaser in of all time ?

I posted other innings also, just look at my posts in reply to IndianWillow..

He had to play at a strike rate of 50 which means he had double the balls against the runs needed. Lehman, Law and Bichel scored more than 50 in lower order.

I think we are on different platform if we judge each innings only on S/R. Do you honestly feel it was an easy chase because of RPO ? We can't discuss it further than this.

It was in Australia.

Ok.. but it was heavily loaded against the home side with pitch assisting opposition bowlers



If you do not consider Dhoni's performances in his home country why you rate a relaxed run rate chase of Bevan in his home country so high ?

Because of the kind of bowling attack ..look at Wasim's figures there

Double standard ?

Not really.. gave reasons above.. apart from being in Australia, rest all were against him.

Reply in bold

 

[vicky_iisc]

Dhoni's WC was a great innings and everyone except you will rate it. How many people remember Bevan innings against NZ ? I am very sure you also used Cricinfo to find an innings to show it for your argument.

You become sure without any substance.. FYI I watched that game on TV, and after that innings read about it on internet some years later.. (please read my post where I said people rate it as his best), so no, it is not true that not many people remember it.

Even if I picked it from cricinfo, what's wrong in that ? Also, is an innings rated higher because how many people remember it ? You told me you watched Bevan's career, so you also would know about this innings, or you don't ?

As to replying to that Dhoni's innings in WC 2011, where have I said I don't rate it highly ? And many people rate Gambhir's innings almost equally good in the same game.. so not sure what you mean by "rate except me".. I give 9/10 to Dhoni and 8/8.5 to Gambhir for that.

 

[Garuda]

Reply in bold

I posted other innings also, just look at my posts in reply to IndianWillow..

You gave me this link. Hence my response to that against Pak. Give me another one and we will talk if this one failed.



I think we are on different platform if we judge each innings only on S/R. Do you honestly feel it was an easy chase because of RPO ? We can't discuss it further than this.

I don't think it's easier. You are the one who think chasing at 3 RPO is difficult but chasing at 8 RPO is not great. If one chases at double the speed still he is lower in your eyes. I don't understand that logic.



Ok.. but it was heavily loaded against the home side with pitch assisting opposition bowlers

So when WC final when both Sachin/Sehwag were out for almost nothing, being a WC final it was heavily loaded towards batting team ?

You never give that kind of analysis when looking at Dhoni's innings. Why ?



Because of the kind of bowling attack ..look at Wasim's figures there

Have you seen murali and Malinga's figure in subcontinent ? Then how come Dhoni's performance is not better than Bevan.

This is why I say, you are not applying same logic to both sides.




Not really.. gave reasons above.. apart from being in Australia, rest all were against him.

All your reasons are one sided. Apply the same reason as I did and see Dhoni did better than Bevan did. Better run rate, more matches, better states like WC final.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Rejected in the sense when you compare against any Bevan's innings.

Bevan plays a innings against Shane Bond and is better for you.

But a WC final against Malinga/murali is second to that.

Why ? It is rejection in this regard.

I think Dhoni's innings against Pakistan and Bevan's innings against NZ are comparable.. and they both are better than Dhoni's innings against SL in WC 2011, just a bit.. WC2011 was more special because of the occasion.. but everything else I will rate the other two innings better.

 

[Garuda]

You become sure without any substance.. FYI I watched that game on TV, and after that innings read about it on internet some years later.. (please read my post where I said people rate it as his best), so no, it is not true that not many people remember it.

Even if I picked it from cricinfo, what's wrong in that ? Also, is an innings rated higher because how many people remember it ? You told me you watched Bevan's career, so you also would know about this innings, or you don't ?

As to replying to that Dhoni's innings in WC 2011, where have I said I don't rate it highly ? And many people rate Gambhir's innings almost equally good in the same game.. so not sure what you mean by "rate except me".. I give 9/10 to Dhoni and 8/8.5 to Gambhir for that.

But a random innings against NZ is better than WC final innings.

I also rate Gambhir's innings better than Dhoni's. But why are you going there ? we are discussing about Dhoni and Bevan.

Do you have an innings from Bevan like WC final 2011 innings of Dhoni ?

 

[zeikz123]

i am going to jump in and say that dhoni is finishing games while being captain.. which obviously has an added pressure element to it.. so dhoni > bevan .

 

[Garuda]

I think Dhoni's innings against Pakistan and Bevan's innings against NZ are comparable.. and they both are better than Dhoni's innings against SL in WC 2011, just a bit.. WC2011 was more special because of the occasion.. but everything else I will rate the other two innings better.

A random innings while chasing 182 at the rate of 3 is better than WC final chase where both openers like Sachin- Sehwag goes for almost nothing ??

Wow. I rest my case.

 

[vicky_iisc]

I posted other innings also, just look at my posts in reply to IndianWillow..

You gave me this link. Hence my response to that against Pak. Give me another one and we will talk if this one failed.


Ha ha ha.. I already provided other links.. just scroll up.. I will not go and provide them again... sure you can do this much "homework" (your advice to me earlier)..

and no this link did not fail.. I replied because you said I had only this to show..




I don't think it's easier. You are the one who think chasing at 3 RPO is difficult but chasing at 8 RPO is not great. If one chases at double the speed still he is lower in your eyes. I don't understand that logic.

Should I prove where you are putting words in my mouth ? You are twisting my sentence to make it look as if I am comparing 3 RPO Vs 8 RPO with everything else same..

Let us not compare the two in this manner.

 

[vicky_iisc]

A random innings while chasing 182 at the rate of 3 is better than WC final chase where both openers like Sachin- Sehwag goes for almost nothing ??

Wow. I rest my case.

You are ignoring Gambhir and Kohli who brought India to 114-3.. when you say Sachin-Sehwag gone.. it means Gambhir and Kohli faced more pressure..

Random innings while chasing 182 against Wasim/Waqar/Saqlain and where you score 79 and the next best scores 28.. is an easy task, isn't it ?

 

[Garuda]

Should I prove where you are putting words in my mouth ? You are twisting my sentence to make it look as if I am comparing 3 RPO Vs 8 RPO with everything else same..

Let us not compare the two in this manner.

Don't you rate Dhoni lower than Bevan even if his chases required much faster scoring than Bevan's ?

Where did I put things into your mouth ?

 

[Garuda]

You are ignoring Gambhir and Kohli who brought India to 114-3.. when you say Sachin-Sehwag gone.. it means Gambhir and Kohli faced more pressure..

Random innings while chasing 182 against Wasim/Waqar/Saqlain and where you score 79 and the next best scores 28.. is an easy task, isn't it ?

So for 275 chase 114/3 is a better stage ??? in a WC final ?

And in your example of Bevan how much run was needed at what required rate ?

Okay. Straight question.

Do you think Bevan's Pakistan innings you gave in the link better than Dhoni's WC final innings ? Just answer this.

 

[Garuda]

Should I prove where you are putting words in my mouth ? You are twisting my sentence to make it look as if I am comparing 3 RPO Vs 8 RPO with everything else same..

Let us not compare the two in this manner.

So how do you want to compare ?

by only rating bowlers whom Bevan faced and saying poor bowling for whom Dhoni faced?

 

[vicky_iisc]

Okay. Straight question.

Do you think Bevan's Pakistan innings you gave in the link better than Dhoni's WC final innings ? Just answer this.

Hmm... no.. I rate Dhoni's innings in WC final better than Bevan's innings against Pak.. let me show why.

1. Quality of attack : Pakistan much better than SL, hence Bevan.
2. Difficulty of chase : 275 was more difficult as no matter the attack, it could be more pressure, whereas 180 odd is easier because of length of the innings is less: Dhoni
3. Importance of the occasion : WC is bigger than anything else : Dhoni.
4. Carrying the innings till the end : Both did it.
5. Support : I felt 114-3 and Gambhir's support to Dhoni: Bevan but not much, only slightly.
6. Pressure on player : Dhoni had a bad world cup, it was a courageous move to promote himself, was the captain : Dhoni.

Overall, pressure of WC (the occasion) and him being captain and decision which could have backfired, I will say Dhoni's WC 2011 final innings was better than Bevan's chase of 180 against Pakistan in a league game.

If you leave the occasion out, both are almost same. But then it would be unfair to compare without taking the occasion of WC in consideration..

 

[Garuda]

Hmm... no.. I rate Dhoni's innings in WC final better than Bevan's innings against Pak.. let me show why.

1. Quality of attack : Pakistan much better than SL, hence Bevan.
2. Difficulty of chase : 275 was more difficult as no matter the attack, it could be more pressure, whereas 180 odd is easier because of length of the innings is less: Dhoni
3. Importance of the occasion : WC is bigger than anything else : Dhoni.
4. Carrying the innings till the end : Both did it.
5. Support : I felt 114-3 and Gambhir's support to Dhoni: Bevan but not much, only slightly.
6. Pressure on player : Dhoni had a bad world cup, it was a courageous move to promote himself, was the captain : Dhoni.

Overall, pressure of WC (the occasion) and him being captain and decision which could have backfired, I will say Dhoni's WC 2011 final innings was better than Bevan's chase of 180 against Pakistan in a league game.

If you leave the occasion out, both are almost same. But then it would be unfair to compare without taking the occasion of WC in consideration..

So can you show me one innings of Bevan which is better than Dhoni's WC final innings ?

 

[vicky_iisc]

So can you show me one innings of Bevan which is better than Dhoni's WC final innings ?

I think Dhoni's innings against Pakistan and Bevan's innings against NZ are comparable.. and they both are better than Dhoni's innings against SL in WC 2011 final, just a bit.. WC2011 was more special because of the occasion.. but everything else I will rate the other two innings better.

Also can you please look at my post in reply to IndianWillow 3 hrs ago.. I compiled a list of matches where I feel Bevan has played as good if not better than Dhoni's these innings ..

I won't be able to do that much work again.. so please refer to my posts in reply to IndianWillow.. Post #584 to #588..

I also won't be able to argue further today or for some days.. as I am going on leave.. so.. if you disagree with me (I know you do), then let us agree to disagree..as I have nothing more to provide. I will meanwhile as promised reconsider my own opinion which is at 50-50 right now.

 

[Garuda]

I think Dhoni's innings against Pakistan and Bevan's innings against NZ are comparable.. and they both are better than Dhoni's innings against SL in WC 2011 final, just a bit.. WC2011 was more special because of the occasion.. but everything else I will rate the other two innings better.

Also can you please look at my post in reply to IndianWillow 3 hrs ago.. I compiled a list of matches where I feel Bevan has played as good if not better than Dhoni's these innings ..

I won't be able to do that much work again.. so please refer to my posts in reply to IndianWillow.. Post #584 to #588..

I also won't be able to argue further today or for some days.. as I am going on leave.. so.. if you disagree with me (I know you do), then let us agree to disagree..as I have nothing more to provide. I will meanwhile as promised reconsider my own opinion which is at 50-50 right now.

I know there is a list of matches in that post.

I want to know which one you rate higher than Dhoni's WC final and why ? I want better not as good as.

Or you rate everyone of them better than Dhoni's WC final innings ?

 

[spaceshot]

Yaar tum dono abhi tak lagey huey ho?

Baaki deen duniya bhi hai.

 

[Garuda]

Yaar tum dono abhi tak lagey huey ho?

Baaki deen duniya bhi hai.

On annual leave.

 

[vicky_iisc]

I know there is a list of matches in that post.

I want to know which one you rate higher than Dhoni's WC final and why ? I want better not as good as.

Or you rate everyone of them better than Dhoni's WC final innings ?

I think Dhoni's innings against Pakistan and Bevan's innings against NZ are comparable.. and they both are better than Dhoni's innings against SL in WC 2011 final, just a bit.. WC2011 was more special because of the occasion.. but everything else I will rate the other two innings better.

Better than Dhoni's WC2011 :
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65624.html


Better/As good as than Dhoni's WC2011:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64550.html

As good as/lower than Dhoni's WC2011:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65269.html


It will perhaps be my last post on this topic with you.. you can have the last laugh.. I am done with it. No energy left further to convince you.. YOU WON..

 

[Garuda]

I think Dhoni's innings against Pakistan and Bevan's innings against NZ are comparable.. and they both are better than Dhoni's innings against SL in WC 2011 final, just a bit.. WC2011 was more special because of the occasion.. but everything else I will rate the other two innings better.

Better than Dhoni's WC2011 :
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65624.html


Better/As good as than Dhoni's WC2011:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64550.html

As good as/lower than Dhoni's WC2011:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65269.html


It will perhaps be my last post on this topic with you.. you can have the last laugh.. I am done with it. No energy left further to convince you.. YOU WON..

No doubt a good innings (first one) but why is it better ? I will not discuss other two as you yourself is not sure if its better than Dhoni's innings.

It was his home country. Which bowler of this match (bond, nash,adams, vettory, harris, nathan astle) are world class and better than murali and malinga ?

Why Bevan playing in his home country is okay while Dhoni doing it in his home country, you want him to show it in SA/AUS ? This innings were not in an alien country.

When Bevan came to bat 193 runs required from 35 overs, RRR: 5.51 With 6 wickets remaining.
When Dhoni came to bat in WC final 161 runs required from 28 overs, RRR 5.71

Bevan did 52 % of the rest of the runs needed and others did 48%.
Dhoni did 56% of the rest of the runs needed and others did 44%


No need to again remind
It was not a knockout match forget about World cup Final.

Some 10th match of VB series vs WC final - No comparison there.


I leave it to you if you keep believing it was better than a WC final chase innings.

 

[IndianWillow]

Nice discussion. I still think Dhoni can play in every way Bevan can, and can do more. For example, Bevan could not be expected to play knocks like these:

Dhoni 148 vs Pakistan
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/64939.html

Dhoni 183 vs SL
http://www.espncricinfo.com/indvsl/engine/current/match/223634.html

Bevan was more an accumulator ( and occasionally a destroyer) but Dhoni can both accumulate and destroy at will in an ODI match. If Dhoni were to be the Sobers of ODIs, then Bevan is a Kallis. Averages may be the same, but it is straight forward to pick who the better one is.

 

[Marshland]

Dhoni still has some to prove in tests outside of India but in one-day cricket he is an utter powerhouse it seems. Add to that the captaincy and wicket keeping as well....

In a way it's unfair to compare Bevan to him because Bevan wasn't fortunate enough to enjoy the perks of T20 in terms of faster scoring, etc.

 

[Electron]

Dhoni = Bevan + Dhoni

Bevan could never do a Dhoni, but Dhoni can always do a Bevan. Dhoni has an extra dimension to his game that Bevan lacked.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Bevan was more an accumulator ( and occasionally a destroyer) but Dhoni can both accumulate and destroy at will in an ODI match. If Dhoni were to be the Sobers of ODIs, then Bevan is a Kallis. Averages may be the same, but it is straight forward to pick who the better one is.

I don't think at this point of time, it is as straightforward as we make it look like.

I have an inclination for batsmen who do it well against good fast bowlers on fast pitches, now this is not the only criterion ofcourse (spinners on turning wickets is difficult too).. perhaps that's why I rate some of Bevan's innings better as he did it against SA/NZ(Bond)/Pak(better version).. in Aus/NZ/SA.. while he was reasonably succesful chaser in India/Pak also..

Dhoni isn't a failure in Aus/SA (10 games is not enough to judge if he hasn't performed that well) but hasn't won games on his own there as much as Bevan.. let us wait for 2015 WC, I think Dhoni can prove many people right.. there is no reason he can't do it there, only thing is he hasn't till now (as much as Bevan).

 

[Muhammad_1]

Bevan was better he faced better bowlers

 

[vicky_iisc]

Bevan was better he faced better bowlers

You mean Pakistan does not have good bowlers ?

 

[vicky_iisc]

No doubt a good innings (first one) but why is it better ? I will not discuss other two as you yourself is not sure if its better than Dhoni's innings.

It was his home country. Which bowler of this match (bond, nash,adams, vettory, harris, nathan astle) are world class and better than murali and malinga ?

Why Bevan playing in his home country is okay while Dhoni doing it in his home country, you want him to show it in SA/AUS ? This innings were not in an alien country.

When Bevan came to bat 193 runs required from 35 overs, RRR: 5.51 With 6 wickets remaining.
When Dhoni came to bat in WC final 161 runs required from 28 overs, RRR 5.71

Bevan did 52 % of the rest of the runs needed and others did 48%.
Dhoni did 56% of the rest of the runs needed and others did 44%


No need to again remind
It was not a knockout match forget about World cup Final.

Some 10th match of VB series vs WC final - No comparison there.


I leave it to you if you keep believing it was better than a WC final chase innings.

If we keep giving WC final importance all the time, all other innings will pale in comparison because it was a world cup final. Bevan didn't play any good innings in a WC final (he wasn't even required in 99 and 2003), so that settles it in favour of Dhoni.. Congrats!!!

You provided % of runs scored (stats), did you deliberately ignore the no. of wickets in hand when Dhoni came on to bat in WC2011 final, and that Bevan did it alone without any support whereas Dhoni had Gambhir to support (and in your opinion, you rate Gambhir's innings better than Dhoni's).


We should better discuss and prove only those things which are objective in nature. You may also want to (if you care) look at the second innings of Bevan I posted which is similar to Dhoni's WC 2011 innings.. (against SA)

Anyway, let us not argue on comparing innings.. when we both agree that both are very good innings, I don't think we will be able to convince each other on such subjective perceptions. I feel it is pointless to argue and damn difficult to convince among two very good innings one as "definitely" better than the other. I suppose sometimes we should let the opinions differ.. how can someone "prove" it I don't know..


I will like to request you to close this discussion with me. We can agree to disagree for now.

 

[Max Mojito]

There is a poll on cricinfo on best finisher in ODIs 41000 did the survey.... 75% for Dhoni, 16% for Bevan, 5% for lance kluslner, .50 for symonds, 2% Miandad. (i rounded the numbers)

 

[Buffet]

I have an inclination for batsmen who do it well against good fast bowlers on fast pitches, now this is not the only criterion ofcourse (spinners on turning wickets is difficult too).. perhaps that's why I rate some of Bevan's innings better

That's where Bevan learned his cricket and played majority of his international games as well. He got opportunities to play lot of innings there so obviously he will have more rescue innings on fast pitches. You have more chance to cherry pick few innings of your liking in Bevan's case.

 

[vicky_iisc]

That's where Bevan learned his cricket and played majority of his international games as well. He got opportunities to play lot of innings there so obviously he will have more rescue innings on fast pitches. You have more chance to cherry pick few innings of your liking in Bevan's case.

That's true.. but if you look at it, Bevan played rescue/match winning innings in India too. So it was much wider spectrum. If he only performed on fast pitches and had failed in India/Pak etc., we wouldn't be talking about him that much..

 

[Buffet]

That's true.. but if you look at it, Bevan played rescue/match winning innings in India too. So it was much wider spectrum. If he only performed on fast pitches and had failed in India/Pak etc., we wouldn't be talking about him that much..

No, he was a class act as a finisher. Absolutely no question marks on that but lacked the ability to hit big shots. He didn't need those big shots due to most teams not really scoring big totals against Aus bowling unit. But he didn't have those shots anyway. May be due to different generation when T 20 was not popular but that's how I see it. I have watched most of Bevan's and Dhoni's rescue innings. I think Dhoni pips him for the top spot now but not by a huge margin.

 

[vicky_iisc]

No, he was a class act as a finisher. Absolutely no question marks on that but lacked the ability to hit big shots. He didn't need those big shots due to most teams not really scoring big totals against Aus bowling unit. But he didn't have those shots anyway. May be due to different generation when T 20 was not popular but that's how I see it. I have watched most of Bevan's and Dhoni's rescue innings. I think Dhoni pips him for the top spot now but not by a huge margin.

He had to chase big totals (around 6 RPO) also.. please refer to some of his innings I mentioned above..

But yes, he was not a big hitter and could not score say 15 off the last over. But he could score 100/120 of 15 overs much better (more times) than others (against a wider bowling opposition on different surfaces) have done.

A case in point was his big hitting innings against Asia XI .. not an offcial ODI but just to show that he was not too bad when it came to hitting either.

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/A...EEK/ASIA-XI_R-O-W_CRICKET-WEEK_08APR2000.html


Bevan scored 185 of 132 deliveries, when WORLD XI was 7-196 and chased 321 (lost by 1 run in the end) facing Wasim/Vaas/Kumble/Muralitharan..

 

[IndianWillow]

I don't think at this point of time, it is as straightforward as we make it look like.

I have an inclination for batsmen who do it well against good fast bowlers on fast pitches, now this is not the only criterion ofcourse (spinners on turning wickets is difficult too).. perhaps that's why I rate some of Bevan's innings better as he did it against SA/NZ(Bond)/Pak(better version).. in Aus/NZ/SA.. while he was reasonably succesful chaser in India/Pak also..

Dhoni isn't a failure in Aus/SA (10 games is not enough to judge if he hasn't performed that well) but hasn't won games on his own there as much as Bevan.. let us wait for 2015 WC, I think Dhoni can prove many people right.. there is no reason he can't do it there, only thing is he hasn't till now (as much as Bevan).

Bevan was a clear suspect against good fast bowlers on fast pitches, especially against the short ball and that is why he never cemented his place in the test side. Don't tell me he was better than Dhoni here. Moreover, Bevan wasn't an opener - and never needed to tackle fresh pace bowlers and the new ball on those grounds. So there is no point comparing Dhoni and Bevan from this angle.

Moreover, Australia is his home ground and performing well there due to both opportunity and familiarity can't be counted against Dhoni's lack of big performances there.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Bevan was a clear suspect against good fast bowlers on fast pitches, especially against the short ball and that is why he never cemented his place in the test side. Don't tell me he was better than Dhoni here. Moreover, Bevan wasn't an opener - and never needed to tackle fresh pace bowlers and the new ball on those grounds. So there is no point comparing Dhoni and Bevan from this angle.

Moreover, Australia is his home ground and performing well there due to both opportunity and familiarity can't be counted against Dhoni's lack of big performances there.

Sir... there was a huge difference b/w Bevan's ability as a Test player and an ODI player of fast bowling.. I know he had a problem against short pitch bowling.. but in ODIs I didn't see him struggle that much against quick bowling of the kind Wasim/Donald/Pollock/Akhtar bowled.. though the same set of bowlers would trouble him in Test matches.

Bevan usually came at 4 or 5 (rather than 6 or 7).. and the rescue innings I am talking about had him early on the crease.

Anyway, facing Wasim Akram with or without new ball is equally difficult I think.. Donald was also better with the old ball.. but these are selective picking of bowlers which I don't want to put forward as argument.

Did I say I consider Bevan because he performed in Aus ? No.. we can look at his record in match winning efforts in India also.

if Aus was more batting friendly, I wouldn't have reconed that. It's about batting/bowling supportive pitches. You will agree Indian pitches are more batsmen friendly in general.

PS: Did you watch his innings against Asia XI ?

 

[bin_pendi_ka_lota]

^ Agree. Bevan wasnt suspect to no fast bowling. He was rarely needed to save the situation for Aussies and he used to do it quite well. MSD on the contrary has captaincy and could promote up and down the order. MSD is needed more often then Bevan to save the day and he does it quite well.