MS Dhoni is better than Michael Bevan - He is the BEST finisher of the game

[vicky_iisc]

1. You can also ask ICC to discard all of Dhoni's performance against SL as he is used to their attack.
2. You can also request ICC to give the official status to Dhaka exhibition match, so you bragging rights that Bevan is a master blaster.
3. You can also ask ICC to stop recording the stats of the matches as they don't present the real facts.

Ha ha ha.. now you are doing the same thing which you accused me for.. first of all, you perhpas didn't read my comment about exhibition match.. I have long back taken that argument back since it was not an official match.. you keep repeating it as my point still.. you have a beer in your hand.. how much does it affect reading comprehension ability ?

 

[Itachi]

after reading from 1st page to this page, to be fair, vicky_iisc hasn't been clear about his reasons.

vicky, let's forget everything.

just mention for once and all, for everyones sake who are asking repeatedly but you are avoiding to answer (don't know why)

what are the criterias that makes bevan better than dhoni?

No essay plz. you deviate from the question each time intentionally or unintentionally.

just do like this.....

Bevan is better than dhoni because....

a. x factor
b. y factor
c. z factor.

that's it. simple.

 

[Itachi]

after reading from 1st page to this page, to be fair, vicky_iisc hasn't been clear about his reasons.

vicky, let's forget everything.

just mention for once and all, for everyones sake who are asking repeatedly but you are avoiding to answer (don't know why)

what are the criterias that makes bevan better than dhoni?

No essay plz. you deviate from the question each time intentionally or unintentionally.

just do like this.....

Bevan is better than dhoni because....

a. x factor
b. y factor
c. z factor.

that's it. simple.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Here is what cricinfo mentions Chetan Sharma as, no mention of his debacle against Miandad, so no, not all sensible people view the players only on basis of their bowling a bad ball in an IND-PAK game:


A pocket-sized powerhouse, Chetan Sharma made up for his lack of height and build with a good action and thrust from the shoulders at the point of delivery. He made his international debut at 17 and a year later, aged 18 years, 288 days, played his first Test. He made it memorable by bowling Mohsin Khan with his fifth ball - the third Indian to take a wicket in his first over in Test cricket. He remained Kapil Dev's able partner for almost five years. Though the experts were of the view that he would not last long because of his slight physique, Chetan proved them wrong by some lion-hearted performances. He first gave notice when he took 14 wickets in three Tests in Sri Lanka in 1985, including his first five wicket haul. He did even better in England in 1986 when he took 16 wickets in two Tests, including the first ten-wicket haul by an Indian bowler in that country. Against the West Indies in 1987-88, he had his fourth five-wicket haul in Tests at New Delhi. He played his last Test in the West Indies in 1989 but continued to represent India in one day internationals until 1994-95. Chetan was also a more than useful tailend batsman, as he proved by holding out against McDermott, Hughes and Reid for over two hours in making 54 when sent in as a nightwatchman against Australia in 1985, or when hitting an exhilerating 101 not out when he was promoted to No. 4 against England in the MRF World Series match in 1989. In retirement, Chetan has found success as a popular TV commentator.

 

[vicky_iisc]

after reading from 1st page to this page, to be fair, vicky_iisc hasn't been clear about his reasons.

vicky, let's forget everything.

just mention for once and all, for everyones sake who are asking repeatedly but you are avoiding to answer (don't know why)

what are the criterias that makes bevan better than dhoni?

No essay plz. you deviate from the question each time intentionally or unintentionally.

just do like this.....

Bevan is better than dhoni because....

a. x factor
b. y factor
c. z factor.

that's it. simple.

Ok.. but are you sure you will not ignore them.. it is your opinion that I haven't been clear in my reasons. My intention right from the beginning has been to prove that Bevan isn't MUCH BELOW Dhoni as an ODI batsman.. please read my earlier comments.. and the posts I replied to..Bevan was called "runner only/only good with strike rotation/dependent on lower order/his team's bowlers/could not handle real pressure.. ".. I objected to this degradation of Bevan. I have no issue if someone considers Dhoni better than Bevan, I don't.. it's 50-50 for me currently. At the start of the debate it was 51-49 or similar in favour of Bevan.


So, before answering, first of all let me be clear on this. My current opinion isn't that Bevan is better than Dhoni (it's 50-50 currently). so I will answer only on that. Now my answer will only be taken in this context :

a) Bevan did it against better bowlers in bowling friendly conditions like Aus/SA while his performance in Ind/Pak isn't questionable either.
b) He was not a hitter, so I don't rate him better hitter (or needing 15 of the last over) than Dhoni, I am only feeling he has played more rescue innings till NOW.
c) I mentioned some of his innings where this is highlighted, so please look at them.. he played MORE such innings where his team was in trouble..

 

[Bushroda]

I am immature in keep replying to you and arguing on different platform.. if you feel I haven't given the reason apart from the 4 you mentioned above, you can be happy being a selective reader.. I think I have given other reasons too which I am not going to keep repeating for days just because someone joined the discussion late, and want to start it all over again.. if you have time away from wife, go and read all my posts in this thread I requested earlier.. I can't be repeating them if you chose to pick only 4 reasons repeatedly and ignore others I provided.

Still waiting for the proof!

You don't need to write the points again.. You can simply copy paste.

Honestly, after reading your argument for Bevan being a master-blaster because of his Dhaka heroics, I would request you not to re-direct me back to your posts again.

FYI, Bevan didn't even bat in 2 of the 3 WC finals he played in.. so I can't show those innings, it wasn't that he failed in WC final. The top order did the job for them.. so he wasn't required.

What about his overall WC performances. Didn't see him doing anything too splendid either.

IF ALL YOU WANT IS TO SEE WC PERFORMANCES, . and you believe WC knockout alone is real pressure (Though I don't agree) you can watch 1999 WC SF innings if you like, if at all you are interested in comparing WC to WC innings.. compare that with Raina's WC SF innings..

Ohh!!! so you have finally found something you can fight with. The record breaking 61 of 105 deliveries in WC semifinal guiding his team to a majestic 213!!!!!

I am sure this a great finish in your books when Bevan couldn't even finish the innings. The entire team was All out & the last 4 wkts were lost scoring just 6 runs. A great finish indeed!!! If it wasn't for Warne & Donald's brainfart, Aus was well & truly out.

Did you see the Mohali match? Raina alone carried India from 185/6 to 260 and finished the Indian inning on a high.

anyway..let's close it. You are free to draw any inference from my reluctance in being interested in arguing further. I am not interested in discussing Raina Vs Bevan.. .

If you want to close it then stop posting. Don't keep telling me to close it.

 

[Bushroda]

Ha ha ha.. now you are doing the same thing which you accused me for.. first of all, you perhpas didn't read my comment about exhibition match.. I have long back taken that argument back since it was not an official match.. you keep repeating it as my point still.. you have a beer in your hand.. how much does it affect reading comprehension ability ?

Even with Beer in my hand, I know how to type "Perhaps" rather than "Perhpas" that you have written.

You need to be very careful with your choice of words. Once you say them they become yours.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Still waiting for the proof!

You don't need to write the points again.. You can simply copy paste.

Honestly, after reading your argument for Bevan being a master-blaster because of his Dhaka heroics, I would request you not to re-direct me back to your posts again.



What about his overall WC performances. Didn't see him doing anything too splendid either.



Ohh!!! so you have finally found something you can fight with. The record breaking 61 of 105 deliveries in WC semifinal guiding his team to a majestic 213!!!!!

I am sure this a great finish in your books when Bevan couldn't even finish the innings. The entire team was All out & the last 4 wkts were lost scoring just 6 runs. A great finish indeed!!! If it wasn't for Warne & Donald's brainfart, Aus was well & truly out.

Did you see the Mohali match? Raina alone carried India from 185/6 to 260 and finished the Indian inning on a high.



If you want to close it then stop posting. Don't keep telling me to close it.

Ha ha ha.. I mentioned that innings earlier too.. but you CAME LATE SIR... so you didn't read that innings.. it's not that I found that innings only now.. NOT my fault if you didn't read it.

Now that majestic 260 was gone for the good if Misbah played sensibly.. do you mean Indian bowlers did not ball good enough and it was only due to Raina that we won the game ? You are saying 213 was won by Warne, but totally discredit Indian bowlers and Misbah slowness when analysing SF of 2011..

 

[Itachi]

a) Bevan did it against better bowlers in bowling friendly conditions like Aus/SA while his performance in Ind/Pak isn't questionable either.
b) He was not a hitter, so I don't rate him better hitter (or needing 15 of the last over) than Dhoni, I am only feeling he has played more rescue innings till NOW.
c) I mentioned some of his innings where this is highlighted, so please look at them.. he played MORE such innings where his team was in trouble..

a) better bowler? who? name them.

b) your feeling can not be a factor. because feelings changes. e.g. I have a strong feeling for a girl, but tomorrow, i saw a more pretty girl and my strong feeling got bend towards this other girl. to be a factor, the elements needs to be constant

c) exhibition matches don't count. Others, Bevan and tail enders shared 60-40 % in winning. With Dhoni, it becomes 90-10.

Bevan only did the accumulation. Big hits were slogged by tail enders. Dhoni does both accumulation and aggression.

 

[Bushroda]

Ha ha ha.. I mentioned that innings earlier too.. but you CAME LATE SIR... so you didn't read that innings.. it's not that I found that innings only now.. NOT my fault if you didn't read it.

So this inning of 61 in 105 deliveries was your argument to show that Bevan is a master-blaster? and that he is a better finisher than Dhoni (doesn't matter if he is not able to finish the inning & the entire team got all out)?

 

[vicky_iisc]

Even with Beer in my hand, I know how to type "Perhaps" rather than "Perhpas" that you have written.

You need to be very careful with your choice of words. Once you say them they become yours.

Ahh.. spelling mistake and typo.. good for you to catch them.. yet you didn't read my reasons no ? You read only what makes your life easier..

 

[Bushroda]

Now that majestic 260 was gone for the good if Misbah played sensibly.. do you mean Indian bowlers did not ball good enough and it was only due to Raina that we won the game ? You are saying 213 was won by Warne, but totally discredit Indian bowlers and Misbah slowness when analysing SF of 2011..

To Quote you again...

"Is it Raina's fault that Misbah played slow?"

Raina had to do his job and that was to finish the inning on a high, give his bowlers a defend-able target and he did that unlike your Super-hero Bevan who turtled his way to 61 of 105 deliveries and couldn't even cross the finishing line. The entire team got all-out in the 50th over

 

[Bushroda]

Ahh.. spelling mistake and typo.. good for you to catch them.. yet you didn't read my reasons no ? You read only what makes your life easier..

If you had quoted something intelligent then please copy-paste here.

I didn't find any except for

1. Discarding stats since they don't reflect the fatcs
2. Bevan is a master-blaster ( refer Dhaka)
3. Don't consider Dhoni's innings against SL
4. An inconsequential 10th match in a tri-series is more important than World Cup final

 

[vicky_iisc]

a) better bowler? who? name them.

Can you read some of the innings I posted, I posted 3... the bowlers were Bond/Akram/Waqar/Saqlain/Donald/Pollock.. now don't ask me to provide those innings for YOU too..you can go and read them from post #550 onwards.. I answered to IndianWillow where I provided the innings.

b) your feeling can not be a factor. because feelings changes. e.g. I have a strong feeling for a girl, but tomorrow, i saw a more pretty girl and my strong feeling got bend towards this other girl. to be a factor, the elements needs to be constant

I agree feeling does not mean anything.. but in a subjective matter such as this, what will ? We can count too.. if you prefer.


c) exhibition matches don't count. Others, Bevan and tail enders shared 60-40 % in winning. With Dhoni, it becomes 90-10.

Was any of my reasons here mentioning about exhibition match.. I posted it long time ago, and took it back too.. where you got it from in my reply here just the previous post?

Bevan only did the accumulation. Big hits were slogged by tail enders. Dhoni does both accumulation and aggression.


Let Dhoni perform in Aus/SA and it will prove it.. he has done it in Ind/SL/Pak etc. and failed in Aus/SA for the limited chances he got.. I will not post the same argument again and again.. so don't get me wrong on shortened reply here when I say he "failed" in Aus/SA. Please read my long explanation earlier on his record in Aus to get what I mean by it. He is yet to fire there.. that's all

Bold

 

[Garuda]

Don't bother any more. He discard Dhoni's innings against Murali and Malinga in WC final.

But rates Bevan's innings against one ODI no one cares against Bond, Nathan astle.


Now when did Bond became better bowler than Murali and Malinga ???

He will never give you stats but will write another of his Feeling.

 

[vicky_iisc]

if you had quoted something intelligent then please copy-paste here.

you know if it had been one post, i would have done it.. Each post of mine (and garuda/indianwillow also) was made in certain context in reply to each other. It would be unfair for me to extract just a portion of it and paste here. I accused garuda of being selective reader earlier, if i also do the same, i will be showing double standard.

You have to read the whole conversation i had with garuda and indianwillow.. They both posted good reasons too, so you will find it better if looked in totality.

i didn't find any except for

1. Discarding stats since they don't reflect the fatcs

i didn't discard stats.. Sorry.. I only discarded their conclusions.. And that too.. Not all.


2. Bevan is a master-blaster ( refer dhaka)

i never said that bevan is a master blaster.. You are misquoting me. I can quote myself again.. It was anyway a one off innings.. I already agree to discard it being based on exhibition game.. Did you not read it ?

Even if we for the moment agree it was an official game, i never called bevan a hitter, he didn't do it consistently enough to be called a hitter.


3. Don't consider dhoni's innings against sl

consider them too.. But let us also consider his performance in aus/sa.


4. An inconsequential 10th match in a tri-series is more important than world cup final

you were also referring to raina.. So include sf too .. By the way not many australians regarded that innings as inconsequential. Every odi is meaningful and if they thought it was inconsequential, why did bevan try so hard ?

If pakistan beat india in ct, would they call it inconsequential, no ?

bold

 

[Itachi]

vicky_iisc, the problem here is, all your logics are scattered here and there. some in garuda's addressing post, some in indianwillow's addressing post....

Let's accumulate it. shall we?

1. Bevan was better because he faced better bowler. the bowlers were Bond/Akram/Waqar/Saqlain/Donald/Pollock.

2. Bevan performed in Aus and RSA where Dhoni failed.

am i getting it all right?

i'l add your each and every logic to above. mention the rest so that it can be a constructive debate as others too failing to see what you are trying to say.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Don't bother any more. He discard Dhoni's innings against Murali and Malinga in WC final.

But rates Bevan's innings against one ODI no one cares against Bond, Nathan astle.


Now when did Bond became better bowler than Murali and Malinga ???

He will never give you stats but will write another of his Feeling.

Murali was injured in final.. and was not turning the ball as much.. did you watch the game ?

As per Bond being better than Malinga.. we can discuss..

 

[vicky_iisc]

vicky_iisc, the problem here is, all your logics are scattered here and there. some in garuda's addressing post, some in indianwillow's addressing post....

Let's accumulate it. shall we?

1. Bevan was better because he faced better bowler. the bowlers were Bond/Akram/Waqar/Saqlain/Donald/Pollock.

2. Bevan performed in Aus and RSA where Dhoni failed.

am i getting it all right?

i'l add your each and every logic to above. mention the rest so that it can be a constructive debate as others too failing to see what you are trying to say.

I will say, yes.. with one addition that he played more such rescue/building innings though in none of them he was a hitter. His USP was ability to play and carry the innings when top order wickets fell early. Now not all of it can be proved through stats, it can only be felt, right ?

I will also take his captain's (Waugh) view on him being responsible for those rescue efforts even though he didn't score sixes or that tailenders scored 30-40% runs.. somethings we have to look beyond stats and take teammate/captain/opposition's view too.

As per stats giving half the picture, we can debate long about how we can present stats which will give a different picture.. just look at WL3635's stat threads to prove Afridi better than Tendulkar.. you will know what I mean.

plus add a disclaimer in 2 that Bevan didn't perform poorly when not playing in Aus/SA..

 

[Itachi]

ok. Update #1

1. Bevan was better because he faced better bowler. the bowlers were Bond/Akram/Waqar/Saqlain/Donald/Pollock.

2. Bevan performed in Aus and RSA where Dhoni failed.

3. he played more such rescue/building innings despite him not being a hitter

4. His performance was reasonable outside AUS/RSA.

We have 4 points till now. you want to add more?

 

[IndianWillow]

a) Bevan did it against better bowlers in bowling friendly conditions like Aus/SA while his performance in Ind/Pak isn't questionable either.

But those were home conditions for him. Like a fish in water.

b) He was not a hitter, so I don't rate him better hitter (or needing 15 of the last over) than Dhoni, I am only feeling he has played more rescue innings till NOW.

Please be assertive. You know we can't have a discussion with our feelings.

c) I mentioned some of his innings where this is highlighted, so please look at them.. he played MORE such innings where his team was in trouble..

Bevan came to bat a little ahead of Dhoni. Bevan batted more at no: 4 and no: 5 slots than Dhoni and hence opportunities were somewhat higher. Even then, I don't think Bevan's best knocks rival Dhoni's best knocks.

 

[Bushroda]

you know if it had been one post, i would have done it.. Each post of mine (and garuda/indianwillow also) was made in certain context in reply to each other. It would be unfair for me to extract just a portion of it and paste here. I accused garuda of being selective reader earlier, if i also do the same, i will be showing double standard.

So you mean to say that you cannot even summarize the reasons for your defense of Bevan?

Thats the quality of your argument?

i didn't discard stats.. Sorry.. I only discarded their conclusions.. And that too.. Not all.

But, that didn't stop you from bringing Bevan's Dhaka inning to showcase his bid hitting prowess.

consider them too.. But let us also consider his performance in aus/sa.

You can consider whichever match you want but just don't compare a league match with a World cup performance. It is as simple as comparing a 100m race in national games being compared with Olympics.

you were also referring to raina.. So include sf too .. By the way not many australians regarded that innings as inconsequential. Every odi is meaningful and if they thought it was inconsequential, why did bevan try so hard ?

I can see how hard he tried.

61 in 105 deliveries and still the entire team was all out and you are defending this man as best finisher of all time!!!

If pakistan beat india in ct, would they call it inconsequential, no ?

Pakistan defeated India in an ODI series in India and no hell broke loose.

World Cup is a different matter altogether.

 

[Bushroda]

Murali was injured in final.. and was not turning the ball as much.. did you watch the game ?

As per Bond being better than Malinga.. we can discuss..

If Murali was injured then why did he play in the final? Are you more informed than Sangakara who decided to play Murali knowing that he is injured? If you are injured enough not to give ur 100% then better rest. This is WC not some inconsequential match is a tri-series.

 

[Bushroda]

Let Dhoni perform in Aus/SA and it will prove it.. he has done it in Ind/SL/Pak etc. and failed in Aus/SA for the limited chances he got.. I will not post the same argument again and again.. so don't get me wrong on shortened reply here when I say he "failed" in Aus/SA. Please read my long explanation earlier on his record in Aus to get what I mean by it. He is yet to fire there.. that's all

Same way, let Bevan perform in a World Cup final & then we will consider him too. Performing in an inconsequential match in a tri-series doesn't make an argument in his favor.

 

[vicky_iisc]

If Murali was injured then why did he play in the final? Are you more informed than Sangakara who decided to play Murali knowing that he is injured? If you are injured enough not to give ur 100% then better rest. This is WC not some inconsequential match is a tri-series.

Cricinfo comment in India's innings after 24 overs (Dhoni just arrived):

Murali's groin problem seems to be hampering him a little, and he's not turning the ball as much as usual. That's the verdict from commentator and world-champion haggis hurler Tom Moody.


You can watch the post match comments by Murali himself..

 

[vicky_iisc]

Pakistan defeated India in an ODI series in India and no hell broke loose.

World Cup is a different matter altogether.

Ha ha ha.. .you must watch the Pakpassion threads to see that... How many Pakistanis agree with that comment ?

 

[Bushroda]

Cricinfo comment in India's innings after 24 overs (Dhoni just arrived):

Murali's groin problem seems to be hampering him a little, and he's not turning the ball as much as usual. That's the verdict from commentator and world-champion haggis hurler Tom Moody.


You can watch the post match comments by Murali himself..

My question again..

Why did he play then? If you are not fully fit then sit out & let someone fit play.

 

[vicky_iisc]

ok. Update #1

1. Bevan was better because he faced better bowler. the bowlers were Bond/Akram/Waqar/Saqlain/Donald/Pollock.

2. Bevan performed in Aus and RSA where Dhoni failed.

3. he played more such rescue/building innings despite him not being a hitter

4. His performance was reasonable outside AUS/RSA.

We have 4 points till now. you want to add more?

Yes, pretty much it. If all of them are taken in the right context.. in 4 I will include rescue innings in a series deciding match against India to take his team to a target of 265.. now we can say Indian bowling wasn't great, but I am making this point in 4th.. where he was outside his home..

 

[vicky_iisc]

My question again..

Why did he play then? If you are not fully fit then sit out & let someone fit play.

He may have been injured more in the game.. many players play through half injuries.

If they played when 100% fit, they would not play 30% of their matches..according to Steve Waugh.. more true about bowlers who learn to play through injury.. but of course it gets worse during the game.

Not that I want to mention it, but a passin reference to their encounter in WC 2007, where Murali turned the ball and got Dhoni LBW.

 

[Bushroda]

Ha ha ha.. .you must watch the Pakpassion threads to see that... How many Pakistanis agree with that comment ?

I didn't see Indian players' houses burning.

I didn't hear about Dhoni going into hiding.

What happens on Pakpassion stays at Pakpassion. It was their jubiliation.

 

[Bushroda]

He may have been injured more in the game.. many players play through half injuries.

If they played when 100% fit, they would not play 30% of their matches..according to Steve Waugh.. more true about bowlers who learn to play through injury.. but of course it gets worse during the game.

Not that I want to mention it, but a passin reference to their encounter in WC 2007, where Murali turned the ball and got Dhoni LBW.

The question still stands. If he wasn't sure about his injury then why did he play? If he played then it means that Sangakara had no other resource who could replace even an injured Murali.

These things are part & parcel of any game. Player can get injured, lose focues, lose their rhythm. These cannot be used as an excuse in any match & definately not while playing WC finals.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Same way, let Bevan perform in a World Cup final & then we will consider him too. Performing in an inconsequential match in a tri-series doesn't make an argument in his favor.

I would have agreed to it, but the fact is : He was not required to play in 2 WC finals.. because his team's top order was very good.. he only batted once in 96 final where he scored 36* coming at 7.. not a class innings but not a fail either.. nothing to talk about.

About WC finals deciding the greatness.. you agree DeSilva/Jayawardene is a better ODI batsman than Tendulkar.. Tendulkar never scored a hundred/fifty in any WC Final forget 50, he did not cross 20. whereas both of them hit centuries. Tendulkar played in 2 WC finals.. Desilva played only in 1..

 

[Garuda]

Murali was injured in final.. and was not turning the ball as much.. did you watch the game ?

As per Bond being better than Malinga.. we can discuss..

Did I watch the WC final where India was playing ?? Will that decide if Dhoni was better than Bevan ?

Anyway, Can you prove that the ball was not turning due to Murali's injury ? So you are expecting Dhoni to play an innings where the ball is completely unplayable ?

Discarding a bowling unit which was playing the WC final is just idiotic.

Do you have any data to suggest Bond was swinging the most ever where Bevan played that innings?


Do you even know how much injury Bond carried in his life?

Idiotic argument.

 

[vicky_iisc]

I didn't see Indian players' houses burning.

I didn't hear about Dhoni going into hiding.

What happens on Pakpassion stays at Pakpassion. It was their jubiliation.

You just read opinions of Pakistanis in Pakpassion how much they rate NON-WC-VICTORY over India.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Did I watch the WC final where India was playing ?? Will that decide if Dhoni was better than Bevan ?

Anyway, Can you prove that the ball was not turning due to Murali's injury ? So you are expecting Dhoni to play an innings where the ball is completely unplayable ?

Discarding a bowling unit which was playing the WC final is just idiotic.

Do you have any data to suggest Bond was swinging the most ever where Bevan played that innings?


Do you even know how much injury Bond carried in his life?

Idiotic argument.

You can watch Bond's performance in that game which I am talking about.. no .. he didn't carry any injury in that game I think.. if he did.. Bevan's innings will lose some of the shine of course..

Idiotic argument ? what injury in a match has to do with overall injury prone ? Not sure if you are making sense when comparing them..

 

[Garuda]

I would have agreed to it, but the fact is : He was not required to play in 2 WC finals.. because his team's top order was very good.. he only batted once in 96 final where he scored 36* coming at 7.. not a class innings but not a fail either.. nothing to talk about.

About WC finals deciding the greatness.. you agree DeSilva/Jayawardene is a better ODI batsman than Tendulkar.. Tendulkar never scored a hundred/fifty in any WC Final forget 50, he did not cross 20. whereas both of them hit centuries. Tendulkar played in 2 WC finals.. Desilva played only in 1..

Please don't show your ignorance any more.

If you can bring enough innings of Bevan which are better that Dhoni, even if Dhoni's WC innings is better than all of them, people will agree with you.

By getting one innings from 10th match from VB series and one exhibition match you can not argue your point. Dhoni has played many matches like that.

Here we are talking about the best ones. and your best example fell flat.

 

[Garuda]

You can watch Bond's performance in that game which I am talking about.. no .. he didn't carry any injury in that game I think.. if he did.. Bevan's innings will lose some of the shine of course..

Idiotic argument ? what injury in a match has to do with overall injury prone ? Not sure if you are making sense when comparing them..

I didn't ask if he carried an injury.

I asked was he seaming and swinging the best ever in his career?

How did you know Murali didn't bowl due to his injury. Just because he had an injury does that automatically makes him bad bowler?

Is there anyway for you to prove that?

Only person who doesn't make any sense argument in this thread is you. No data to back up. arguing with "Feelings"

 

[vicky_iisc]

Please don't show your ignorance any more.

If you can bring enough innings of Bevan which are better that Dhoni, even if Dhoni's WC innings is better than all of them, people will agree with you.

By getting one innings from 10th match from VB series and one exhibition match you can not argue your point. Dhoni has played many matches like that.

Here we are talking about the best ones. and your best example fell flat.

You haven't read Bushroda's arguments of WC semi final ininngs being imp.. have you ?

Let me clarify.. I can't be answering one faulty logic of one poster and the other poster's totally different post does not agree with either of us.. I can only reply to one .. not all together.

Let me ask you: Do you agree with Bushroda calling Raina's WC SF innings better than the same Bevan innings I am talking about or even Bevan's innings in WC SF 1999 ? We can discuss then.

 

[Bushroda]

I would have agreed to it, but the fact is : He was not required to play in 2 WC finals.. because his team's top order was very good.. he only batted once in 96 final where he scored 36* coming at 7.. not a class innings but not a fail either.. nothing to talk about.

So please stop comparing an inconsequential League match effort with a World Cup final.

About WC finals deciding the greatness.. you agree DeSilva/Jayawardene is a better ODI batsman than Tendulkar.. Tendulkar never scored a hundred/fifty in any WC Final forget 50, he did not cross 20. whereas both of them hit centuries. Tendulkar played in 2 WC finals.. Desilva played only in 1..

Tendulkar has scored most number of runs in a World Cup by any player. Ofcourse, he had a problem with finishing the innings. But, his best effort wasn't 61 in 105 deliveries. Just tell me how many runs has your Super-hero Bevan scored in World-cups.

 

[Garuda]

You haven't read Bushroda's arguments of WC semi final ininngs being imp.. have you ?

Let me clarify.. I can't be answering one faulty logic of one poster and the other poster's totally different post does not agree with either of us.. I can only reply to one .. not all together.

Let me ask you: Do you agree with Bushroda calling Raina's WC SF innings better than the same Bevan innings I am talking about or even Bevan's innings in WC SF 1999 ? We can discuss then.

Unlike you, I do not beat around the bush.

When I talk about Dhoni and Bevan, I stay there.

I have given my points which you could reject.

 

[vicky_iisc]

I didn't ask if he carried an injury.

I asked was he seaming and swinging the best ever in his career?

How did you know Murali didn't bowl due to his injury. Just because he had an injury does that automatically makes him bad bowler?

Is there anyway for you to prove that?

Only person who doesn't make any sense argument in this thread is you. No data to back up. arguing with "Feelings"

Ha ha ha.. read above .. I posted cricinfo comment.. about Murali hampered with injury and not turning..

Yet again one of your allegation that I made it up falls flat.. I din't make it up.. but I guess your stomach is full now having eaten your words many times.. chill buddy.. better luck next time.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Unlike you, I do not beat around the bush.

When I talk about Dhoni and Bevan, I stay there.

I have given my points which you could reject.

YA sure.. but you care to jump into a discussion I was having midway with Bushroda on Raina Vs Bevan, didn't you ?

If you were so sure, you would have only discussed the things we were discussing.. FYI, I was replying to his comment on Raina being better than Bevan (innings) due to WC knockout..

You chose this to make me look like I was replying generally.. if you didn't beat around the bush, you should have stuck to your conversation only.. and not jumping with half information.

That's why I said I can't bother to reply to many references all at the same time.. tomorrow someone will come and say Yousuf Pathan was better than Bevan and ask me to prove it in the same thread.. if I don't do it, I will be accused of not having any valid argument..
But if I do, I will be accused of diverting from the topic of Bevan Vs Dhoni.. good one.

 

[Garuda]

No doubt a good innings (first one) but why is it better ? I will not discuss other two as you yourself is not sure if its better than Dhoni's innings.

It was his home country. Which bowler of this match (bond, nash,adams, vettory, harris, nathan astle) are world class and better than murali and malinga ?

Why Bevan playing in his home country is okay while Dhoni doing it in his home country, you want him to show it in SA/AUS ? This innings were not in an alien country.

When Bevan came to bat 193 runs required from 35 overs, RRR: 5.51 With 6 wickets remaining.
When Dhoni came to bat in WC final 161 runs required from 28 overs, RRR 5.71

Bevan did 52 % of the rest of the runs needed and others did 48%.
Dhoni did 56% of the rest of the runs needed and others did 44%


No need to again remind
It was not a knockout match forget about World cup Final.

Some 10th match of VB series vs WC final - No comparison there.


I leave it to you if you keep believing it was better than a WC final chase innings.

If we keep giving WC final importance all the time, all other innings will pale in comparison because it was a world cup final. Bevan didn't play any good innings in a WC final (he wasn't even required in 99 and 2003), so that settles it in favour of Dhoni.. Congrats!!!

That is not Dhoni's problem. Dhoni has not needed to play in SA yet. But you degrade Dhoni for that.


You provided % of runs scored (stats), did you deliberately ignore the no. of wickets in hand when Dhoni came on to bat in WC2011 final, and that Bevan did it alone without any support whereas Dhoni had Gambhir to support (and in your opinion, you rate Gambhir's innings better than Dhoni's).

1 wicket difference. Dhoni came after 3 wicket fell and Bevan came after 4 ? What is the difference. Busted again.


We should better discuss and prove only those things which are objective in nature. You may also want to (if you care) look at the second innings of Bevan I posted which is similar to Dhoni's WC 2011 innings.. (against SA)

That is what I did. I have never given my "Feelings" like you do.

Anyway, let us not argue on comparing innings.. when we both agree that both are very good innings, I don't think we will be able to convince each other on such subjective perceptions. I feel it is pointless to argue and damn difficult to convince among two very good innings one as "definitely" better than the other. I suppose sometimes we should let the opinions differ.. how can someone "prove" it I don't know..

Only difference is mine is pure data and yours is opinion. You couldn't refute any of the data.


I will like to request you to close this discussion with me. We can agree to disagree for now.

That's your wish.

Here is the main data I supplied and check your replies. .Tell me where did you able to disprove my data ? not a single one.

Come back and respond to these numbers or atleast be a man to accept that these data can not be challenged.

 

[Garuda]

Ha ha ha.. read above .. I posted cricinfo comment.. about Murali hampered with injury and not turning..

Yet again one of your allegation that I made it up falls flat.. I din't make it up.. but I guess your stomach is full now having eaten your words many times.. chill buddy.. better luck next time.

So cricinfo commentry is your proof ? yah sure cricket expert .


And all the real stats I have given are not relevance ??

 

[vicky_iisc]

Here is the main data I supplied and check your replies. .Tell me where did you able to disprove my data ? not a single one.

Come back and respond to these numbers or atleast be a man to accept that these data can not be challenged.

Ha ha ha.. you are the one who does the following :

1. Provide data
2. On not acceptance of the conclusion, calling other person only feeling-based/not man enough
3. Make allegation
4. Allegation proven wrong... hide (don't mention it.. never happened)
5. Come back and just jump into any other discussion on the same thread (Raina Vs Bevan)
6. Despite 5, still calling yourself stay-on-the-topic..
7. Go back to 2 and repeat the whole process.


You expect me to provide arguments/facts.. discussing with you ? I think Itachi summed up all my defences of Bevan.. you go and read them.

 

[Garuda]

Ha ha ha.. you are the one who does the following :

1. Provide data
2. On not acceptance of the conclusion, calling other person only feeling-based/not man enough
3. Make allegation
4. Allegation proven wrong... hide (don't mention it.. never happened)
5. Come back and just jump into any other discussion on the same thread (Raina Vs Bevan)
6. Despite 5, still calling yourself stay-on-the-topic..
7. Go back to 2 and repeat the whole process.


You expect me to provide arguments/facts.. discussing with you ? I think Itachi summed up all my defences of Bevan.. you go and read them.

anything regarding the data ?

 

[vicky_iisc]

So cricinfo commentry is your proof ? yah sure cricket expert .


And all the real stats I have given are not relevance ??

Ohh.. you want me to go and check Murali's injury myself or certificate from Dr.. ha ha ha.. I rely on cricinfo commentary for most of the in-match things.. which don't show up in scoreboard.

Like Tendulkar struggled against Ajmal.. though stat say he scored 85/56 in 2 innings against Ajmal..

 

[vicky_iisc]

anything regarding the data ?

Yes, I provided all the data I could.. if by 'data' you mean % of his rescue efforts like a statistician.. sorry buddy didn't quantify that

 

[Garuda]

Ohh.. you want me to go and check Murali's injury myself or certificate from Dr.. ha ha ha.. I rely on cricinfo commentary for most of the in-match things.. which don't show up in scoreboard.

Like Tendulkar struggled against Ajmal.. though stat say he scored 85/56 in 2 innings..

Show now you do not go by score board ?

It's all feeling again ?

 

[Garuda]

Yes, I provided all the data I could.. if by 'data' you mean % of his rescue efforts.. sorry buddy didn't quantify that

So you accept that you can not refute that ?

 

[vicky_iisc]

So cricinfo commentry is your proof ? yah sure cricket expert .


And all the real stats I have given are not relevance ??

When did I say real stats do not have any relevance ? I only said they are not all in themselves..

If you are such a stats fan : Answer me on Tendulkar/Ajmal in 2 ODIs where Tendulkar scored 85/54.. who held the upper hand ?

 

[vicky_iisc]

So you accept that you can not refute that ?

I asked you a Tendulkar/Ajmal question above.. answer that and you will know what role quantification plays..

If by not being able to refute you mean, I have to quantify the innings, based on % of runs and minimal wicket loss you r right.. I can't refute it.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Garuda, are you and Bushroda dividing the workload among yourselves ??

My reply above :

YA sure.. but you care to jump into a discussion I was having midway with Bushroda on Raina Vs Bevan, didn't you ?

If you were so sure, you would have only discussed the things we were discussing.. FYI, I was replying to his comment on Raina being better than Bevan (innings) due to WC knockout..

You chose this to make me look like I was replying generally.. if you didn't beat around the bush, you should have stuck to your conversation only.. and not jumping with half information.

That's why I said I can't bother to reply to many references all at the same time.. tomorrow someone will come and say Yousuf Pathan was better than Bevan and ask me to prove it in the same thread.. if I don't do it, I will be accused of not having any valid argument..
But if I do, I will be accused of diverting from the topic of Bevan Vs Dhoni.. good one.

 

[Garuda]

When did I say real stats do not have any relevance ? I only said they are not all in themselves..

If you are such a stats fan : Answer me on Tendulkar/Ajmal in 2 ODIs where Tendulkar scored 85/54.. who held the upper hand ?

But that doesn't mean you discard the real data and only go with feeling which you are doing. If you are ignoring the real data then you need to give something strong reason.


Sachin's example is a good one you gave. We can all see Sachin got so many lives. But in Dhoni's case you have nothing to back.

I am not a blind and can clearly see Sachin struggled. But what does that prove about Dhoni's innigs? Was Dhoni getting life after life in that innings ? What's your point?

 

[Garuda]

I asked you a Tendulkar/Ajmal question above.. answer that and you will know what role quantification plays..

If by not being able to refute you mean, I have to quantify the innings, based on % of runs and minimal wicket loss you r right.. I can't refute it.

Replied about Sachin's innings in above post.

What minimal wicket loss that was not a data I gave, That was my statement. The data I gave was this (bold pard below). I am sure you can not refute that too.

When Bevan came to bat 193 runs required from 35 overs, RRR: 5.51 With 6 wickets remaining.
When Dhoni came to bat in WC final 161 runs required from 28 overs, RRR 5.71 7 wickets remaining.

Bevan did 52 % of the rest of the runs needed and others did 48%.
Dhoni did 56% of the rest of the runs needed and others did 44%


No need to again remind
It was not a knockout match forget about World cup Final.

Some 10th match of VB series vs WC final - No comparison there.


From this I can clearly see Dhoni's innings was better. Refute it if you can.

 

[vicky_iisc]

But that doesn't mean you discard the real data and only go with feeling which you are doing. If you are ignoring the real data then you need to give something strong reason.


Sachin's example is a good one you gave. We can all see Sachin got so many lives. But in Dhoni's case you have nothing to back.

I am not a blind and can clearly see Sachin struggled. But what does that prove about Dhoni's innigs? Was Dhoni getting life after life in that innings ? What's your point?

No, I am only saying just because someone doesn't provide data/stats, doesn't mean he is all wrong.. feeling matters.

We can't discard feeling altogether from match analysis and restrict to % of runs scored.. and looking at scoreboard. Tendulkar Vs Ajmal was just to prove it.. it doesn't mean all stats in favour of Dhoni are wrong or Dhoni also struggled.

You see I have to fight on different fronts here.. hence it is necessary for me to establish some ground work to get "feeling" of an expert into it too.. where only stats are given as facts.

Now, do you consider 7 wickets down before 100 runs is a grave situation in itself than 3-114, 4-225... can we for a moment forget it was WC, and just look at an isolated ODI ? Even if we include WC later ?

 

[Garuda]

No, I am only saying just because someone doesn't provide data/stats, doesn't mean he is all wrong.. feeling matters.

We can't discard feeling altogether from match analysis and restrict to % of runs scored.. and looking at scoreboard. Tendulkar Vs Ajmal was just to prove it.. it doesn't mean all stats in favour of Dhoni are wrong or Dhoni also struggled.

You see I have to fight on different fronts here.. hence it is necessary for me to establish some ground work to get "feeling" of an expert into it too.. where only stats are given as facts.

Now, do you consider 7 wickets down before 100 runs is a grave situation in itself than 3-114, 4-225... can we for a moment forget it was WC, and just look at an isolated ODI ? Even if we include WC later ?

Again another post with more feeling. Nothing which will give me aspect or data to show Bevan's innings was better than Dhoni's

So, you are saying we will just accept your feeling ? Is that your point?

Dhoni didn't struggle, so stop giving Sachin's example. That scenario doesn't apply here.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Replied about Sachin's innings in above post.

What minimal wicket loss that was not a data I gave, That was my statement. The data I gave was this (bold pard below). I am sure you can not refute that too.

When Bevan came to bat 193 runs required from 35 overs, RRR: 5.51 With 6 wickets remaining.
When Dhoni came to bat in WC final 161 runs required from 28 overs, RRR 5.71 7 wickets remaining.

Bevan did 52 % of the rest of the runs needed and others did 48%.
Dhoni did 56% of the rest of the runs needed and others did 44%


No need to again remind
It was not a knockout match forget about World cup Final.

Some 10th match of VB series vs WC final - No comparison there.


From this I can clearly see Dhoni's innings was better. Refute it if you can.

Please take the bowlers/pitch/support also into consideration.. Bevan didn't score all the remaining runs by himself.. but the % difference is only 4.. I think the era was different, run scoring has usually become faster anyway.. Plus it is not % of runs alone, wicket loss also is a factor.

Also Bevan had to do it alone, he couldn't "RELY" on tailenders.. he has to keep in mind they can fail anytime, they can't be trusted to score, even if they hit odd 20-30 runs.. He knew he was the LAST BATSMAN there..

 

[vicky_iisc]

Again another post with more feeling. Nothing which will give me aspect or data to show Bevan's innings was better than Dhoni's

So, you are saying we will just accept your feeling ? Is that your point?

Dhoni didn't struggle, so stop giving Sachin's example. That scenario doesn't apply here.

Not my feeling ofcourse.. but other known cricket experts/his captain Steve Waugh ?

Dhoni didn't struggle ofcourse, and you also know Tendulkar Ajmal point was to break a bigger wall (STAT/% of runs)on which all my other arguments fall flat.. not to prove Dhoni similarity. I had to first break that wall before arguing further..

 

[Garuda]

Not my feeling ofcourse.. but other known cricket experts/his captain Steve Waugh ?

Dhoni didn't struggle ofcourse, and you also know Tendulkar Ajmal point was to break a bigger wall (STAT/% of runs)on which all my other arguments fall flat.. not to prove Dhoni similarity. I had to first break that wall before arguing further..

Dude,

Take your example of Sachin's innings.

Everyone discard those two innings because playing in that innings he struggled and got so many lives and were generating so many edges.

Why are you degrading Dhoni's innings. On what basis ?

He didn't get any life, he didn't edge.

So Sachin's inning is not feeling but real data that he got 5 lives. If you want I can prove that he got 5 catches dropped. So it's not feeling it's real data.

Regarding bowlers

Prove that Bond, Nathan Astle are better bowler than Murali and Malinga.

Now Again that is your feeling not data supporting it. As per data Maling and Murali are better bowlers.

 

[Bushroda]

Garuda, are you and Bushroda dividing the workload among yourselves ??

Nah!!!! The fact is that Dhoni has many people to defend whereas, you are like that persistent tail-ender who refuses to get out even though the match is well & truly lost

 

[Garuda]

Not my feeling ofcourse.. but other known cricket experts/his captain Steve Waugh ?

Dhoni didn't struggle ofcourse, and you also know Tendulkar Ajmal point was to break a bigger wall (STAT/% of runs)on which all my other arguments fall flat.. not to prove Dhoni similarity. I had to first break that wall before arguing further..

Show me where Steve Waugh said Bevan's 10th ODI innings in VB series is better that Dhoni's WC final innings.

I will stop the argument with you.

 

[Garuda]

Nah!!!! The fact is that Dhoni has many people to defend whereas, you are like that persistent tail-ender who refuses to get out even though the match is well & truly lost

He is now down to his feeling as he has no argument left.

The point is loosing an argument is again hurting his feeling. So he is hiding his real feeling.

 

[Bushroda]

We can't discard feeling altogether from match analysis and restrict to % of runs scored.. and looking at scoreboard. Tendulkar Vs Ajmal was just to prove it.. it doesn't mean all stats in favour of Dhoni are wrong or Dhoni also struggled.

Javed Miandad also struggled against Manoj Prabhakar. So, whats your point?

 

[Garuda]

Javed Miandad also struggled against Manoj Prabhakar. So, whats your point?

Again he is wrong about Sachin's innings as just feeling.

Sachin's innings against Ajmal is not considered great not because of feeling but because of data too. As everyone has instances of drop catches and edges to see.

As for Dhoni's innings he has nothing to support his feeling.

 

[vicky_iisc]

A 'data' which only considers % of runs scored and ignores wicket losses at other end/being left with tailenders/bowling quality/pitch is a useful tool for you, not me..

We can close it.

 

[Garuda]

A 'data' which only considers % of runs scored and ignores wicket losses at other end/being left with tailenders/bowling quality/pitch is a useful tool for you, not me..

We can close it.

Wow, what a convincing argument to reject all data.

By the way, why is iisc in your name? Do you or did you study in iisc?

Do you take, the last final against SL in WI when Dhoni won the match with 15 runs in last over while all other wickets fell on other side ? Will that be better then ? Let's ignore all data. In that match Dhoni had to work with only last man when Bevan didn't have to go till last man. Fine ?

 

[vicky_iisc]

Nah!!!! The fact is that Dhoni has many people to defend whereas, you are like that persistent tail-ender who refuses to get out even though the match is well & truly lost

ha ha ha.. good attempt..

 

[Bushroda]

A 'data' which only considers % of runs scored and ignores wicket losses at other end/being left with tailenders/bowling quality/pitch is a useful tool for you, not me..

Also, the argument that considers an inconsequential 10th match of a VB series to be more important than a World Cup winning knock is a useful argument for you... Not me.

We can close it.

Is this final or do we need to bowl another over?

 

[vicky_iisc]

Wow, what a convincing argument to reject all data.

By the way, why is iisc in your name? Do you or did you study in iisc?

Yes it is sure convincing.. name me one good cricket analyst, expert who uses the data of % of runs scored when came on the crease (apart from you and few statisticians ) ..

Whereas I can name many who rate the wicket loss at the other end/pitch/bowlers/batting with tailenders as bigger 'data' points.. of course you would not agree.

IISc has nothing to do with my arguments.. don't want to bring that here for you to pass your insulting judgment on that.

 

[Bushroda]

He is now down to his feeling as he has no argument left.

The point is loosing an argument is again hurting his feeling. So he is hiding his real feeling.

As per his own confession, he is immature. Therefore, I don't want to hurt his feelings. But then again, he is fun.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Also, the argument that considers an inconsequential 10th match of a VB series to be more important than a World Cup winning knock is a useful argument for you... Not me.



Is this final or do we need to bowl another over?

You are interchanging with Garuda on my reply to him and vice versa.. you also have lost your cool which you had earlier.. just because I am making baseless arguments ?

No, that WC final is more imp than 10th match VB series (though it's not inconsequential).. but you imply as if that is a point which can't have any discussion ahead.. calling that meaningless ODI .. sure..

Answer me if WC final is so imp.. Desilva/Jaya are better ODI batsmen than Tendulkar ? Of course you did not reply that.

 

[Garuda]

Yes it is sure convincing.. name me one good cricket analyst, expert who uses the data of % of runs scored when came on the crease (apart from you and few statisticians ) ..

Whereas I can name many who rate the wicket loss at the other end/pitch/bowlers/batting with tailenders as bigger 'data' points.. of course you would not agree.

Which top cricket Analyst you are?

Show me a top cricket analyst who says 10th ODI match of VB series of Bevan is better innings than Dhoni's WC final innings.

IISc has nothing to do with my arguments.. don't want to bring that here for you to pass your insulting judgment on that.

Again your feeling. No one can help you if you are so insecure.

 

[vicky_iisc]

As per his own confession, he is immature. Therefore, I don't want to hurt his feelings. But then again, he is fun.

Sorry, can't say the same about you..who says Raina is better than Bevan..

 

[vicky_iisc]

Which top cricket Analyst you are?

Show me a top cricket analyst who says 10th ODI match of VB series of Bevan is better innings than Dhoni's WC final innings.


Again your feeling. No one can help you if you are so insecure.

Yes, looking at the level of your insulting comments (personal too), I am insecure about the institution being brought here.. can't trust you being civil.. and I didn't ask for help either..

No, that WC final is more imp than 10th match VB series (though it's not inconsequential).. but Bushroda implies as if that is a point which can't have any discussion ahead.. calling that meaningless ODI .. sure.. and I replied to that.

 

[IndianWillow]

ok. Update #1

1. Bevan was better because he faced better bowler. the bowlers were Bond/Akram/Waqar/Saqlain/Donald/Pollock.

2. Bevan performed in Aus and RSA where Dhoni failed.

3. he played more such rescue/building innings despite him not being a hitter

4. His performance was reasonable outside AUS/RSA.

We have 4 points till now. you want to add more?

1. Facing the bowlers once or twice by itself does not mean much. What is the overall performance against these bowlers? What was the form of the bowler during that match and season? What was Bevan's solo contribution in the wins etc.

2. Dhoni has not failed in Aus. He does not have a good record in SA however.

3. Being a hitter is not a virtue, when talking of rescue/building innings. In fact, it is harder for hitters to rescue/build/anchor innings compared to accumulators. That Dhoni has been both a hitter as well as an accumulator is a definite plus for him. The way the naturally six hitting Dhoni restrains himself (and does not succumb to impulses) while taking his team to a victory is a big asset in itself.

4. Though Bevan was successful in India, he struggled considerably in Srilanka, managing only a highest of 56 in 20 matches.

 

[GenericBrand]

delete

 

[Bushroda]

So, We have to still bowl another over..

What are you hoping for now? A barrage of No-balls so you can make a comeback?

You are interchanging with Garuda on my reply to him and vice versa.. you also have lost your cool which you had earlier.. just because I am making baseless arguments ?

So, you agree that you have been making baseless arguments so far? 5 pages and still going!!!!

No, that WC final is more imp than 10th match VB series (though it's not inconsequential).. but you imply as if that is a point which can't have any discussion ahead.. calling that meaningless ODI .. sure..

Answer me if WC final is so imp.. Desilva/Jaya are better ODI batsmen than Tendulkar ? Of course you did not reply that.

I have already answered you, Tendulkar is the highest run-getter in World-Cups. He has helped his team reach the semi-final once and finals twice. Yes!! I agree that he has problem performing on the highest atage but, a team is made of 11 players. Others also have to stand up and perform. Atleast, Tendulkar's best effort was not 61 in 105 deliveries.

Stewe Waugh also didnot perform in WC'99. But his 120* against SA helped his team reach finals.

Let me tell you another thing, I will rate Stewe Waugh's 120* against SA a hell lot better than your Super-Hero Bevan's effort against NZ.

 

[vicky_iisc]

1. Facing the bowlers once or twice by itself does not mean much. What is the overall performance against these bowlers? What was the form of the bowler during that match and season? What was Bevan's solo contribution in the wins etc.

I am only quoting those matches where these bowlers performed well.. so does not mean much ??

2. Dhoni has not failed in Aus. He does not have a good record in SA however.

He has not fired YET in Aus.. though it can't be held against him... as he only played 10 games.. so let's wait before passing judgment on him.


3. Being a hitter is not a virtue, when talking of rescue/building innings. In fact, it is harder for hitters to rescue/build/anchor innings compared to accumulators. That Dhoni has been both a hitter as well as an accumulator is a definite plus for him. The way the naturally six hitting Dhoni restrains himself (and does not succumb to impulses) while taking his team to a victory is a big asset in itself.

Ok...

4. Though Bevan was successful in India, he struggled considerably in Srilanka, managing only a highest of 56 in 20 matches.

Ok.. so Bevan failed in SL.. and Dhoni in Aus/SA.. you want to cancel these two with each other ?

Bold.

 

[Garuda]

Yes, looking at the level of your insulting comments (personal too), I am insecure about the institution being brought here.. can't trust you being civil.. and I didn't ask for help either..

Fair enough and I take that comment as not personal from you.

No, that WC final is more imp than 10th match VB series (though it's not inconsequential).. but Bushroda implies as if that is a point which can't have any discussion ahead.. calling that meaningless ODI .. sure.. and I replied to that.

When everyone asked you to show innings of Bevan that you consider better than Dhoni's WC final innings you brought this one.


Forget Bushroda, Do you consider this ODI innings of Bevan is better than Dhoni's WC final innings ?

Also show me which Cricket Analyst also rates this ODI better than Dhoni's innings.