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New Zealand [280/3] defeat South Africa [279/8] by 7 wickets in the 4th ODI to level the series 2-2

Back then we were nowhere as good as we are now.

I would back Kane's side to trounce that side.
 
Aman said:
Back then we were nowhere as good as we are now.

I would back Kane's side to trounce that side.
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LOL what? The narrative is changing again, wasn't Mills once rated as the no. 1 bowler in the world?

Even to entertain your flawed argument, AB has won two matches on this tour alone, both with his fingerprints all over them. Now I ask again, list me matches Kohli won in NZ. OK I'll be fair and extend my hand, how about SA, NZ and Australia?
That should be a piece of cake for a guy better than AB.
It's not as if AB humiliated Kohli in his backyard winning a series over there, while Kohli was miserable. Surely not!
 
soso_killer said:
who'll score the runs if he doesn't?
We'd be knocked out of the group stages then what?
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5 SA's averaged over 50 in the 2015 WC.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/icc-c...g_by_team.html?id=6537;team=3;type=tournament

2011, yeah he had no support
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/icc_c...g_by_team.html?id=4857;team=3;type=tournament

2007 there were 3 players who performed far better than AB
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wc200...g_by_team.html?id=2403;team=3;type=tournament
 
soso_killer said:
LOL what? The narrative is changing again, wasn't Mills once rated as the no. 1 bowler in the world?

Even to entertain your flawed argument, AB has won two matches on this tour alone, both with his fingerprints all over them. Now I ask again, list me matches Kohli won in NZ. OK I'll be fair and extend my hand, how about SA, NZ and Australia?
That should be a piece of cake for a guy better than AB.
It's not as if AB humiliated Kohli in his backyard winning a series over there, while Kohli was miserable. Surely not!
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LOL are you kidding me mate... Kohli would eat that attack alive and push 250 if he ever got the chance to face that attack. We were minnow level back then who most sides beat. So many players who weren't close to international standard, Kane and Guptill nowhere near being world class. Makes me sad to think back to then..
 
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Aman said:
LOL are you kidding me mate... Kohli would eat that attack alive and push 250 if he ever got the chance to face that attack. We were minnow level back then who most sides beat. So many players who weren't close to international standard, Kane and Guptill nowhere near being world class. Makes me sad to think back to then..
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why are you running in circles and stalling?
Name me matches Kohli has won in SA, NZ ENG and Australia to prove Kohli is better.
You seem to be struggling to come up with any compelling evidence that Kohli is better than AB.
 
soso_killer said:
why are you running in circles and stalling?
Name me matches Kohli has won in SA, NZ ENG and Australia to prove Kohli is better.
You seem to be struggling to come up with any compelling evidence that Kohli is better than AB.
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Kohli's not near the end of his career, he has holes in his record but he will fill those in time.

He's 28 and determined, not 33 and looking for a way out.

As for the above, I was providing context not changing the narrative.
 
Aman said:
5 SA's averaged over 50 in the 2015 WC.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/icc-c...g_by_team.html?id=6537;team=3;type=tournament

2011, yeah he had no support
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/icc_c...g_by_team.html?id=4857;team=3;type=tournament

2007 there were 3 players who performed far better than AB
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wc200...g_by_team.html?id=2403;team=3;type=tournament
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AB bullied McGrath in 07 while Gibbs was smashing the likes of Scotland/Netherlands, LOL.
AB has been a torchbearer for years.
 
soso_killer said:
LOL what? The narrative is changing again, wasn't Mills once rated as the no. 1 bowler in the world?

Even to entertain your flawed argument, AB has won two matches on this tour alone, both with his fingerprints all over them. Now I ask again, list me matches Kohli won in NZ. OK I'll be fair and extend my hand, how about SA, NZ and Australia?
That should be a piece of cake for a guy better than AB.
It's not as if AB humiliated Kohli in his backyard winning a series over there, while Kohli was miserable. Surely not!
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Not that I agree with Kohli being better than AB. But why NZ? Weren't Sri Lanka a much better side than NZ. Heck Sri Lanka was more successful than South Africa having been finalists in back to back world cups. What was South Africa? Why don't ask him to list out his performances in Sri Lanka?

India is an average team outside Asia because lack of good fast bowlers and with spinners having little effect in the outcome of the game. The best you should expect from Indian batsmen is to score and score. That's not the case with SA as they had a much better bowling lineup and once their batsmen score runs, it's pretty much a given that they are going to win the game. Kohli had a good tour of South Africa in 2011, scored a ton in in that India's disastrous tour of England in 2011, that hobart knock in Australia, 183 vs Pakistan chasing 330, lone warrior in India's tour of NZ in 2014 and in 2016 in Australia. The list goes on and on. Kohli has played some tremendous knocks in his career so far. Don't put down Kohli just to make AB look bigger. You don't actually have to do it as many, including me, consider AB as better than Kohli.
 
Aman said:
Kohli's not near the end of his career, he has holes in his record but he will fill those in time.

He's 28 and determined, not 33 and looking for a way out.

As for the above, I was providing context not changing the narrative.
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oh boy, changing goal posts again.
AB scores a clutch knock with his team at 30/3 in a tricky pitch against a wise opposition in their den. Excuse? NZ were not strong enough.

List the games Kohli has won in SA, NZ, ENG OR AUS, Another excuse. Time doesn't make any player better performances do.

Seriously what's the argument about here. On top AB has bullied Kohli in India again he came up short.
 
soso_killer said:
oh boy, changing goal posts again.
AB scores a clutch knock with his team at 30/3 in a tricky pitch against a wise opposition in their den. Excuse? NZ were not strong enough.

List the games Kohli has won in SA, NZ, ENG OR AUS, Another excuse. Time doesn't make any player better performances do.

Seriously what's the argument about here. On top AB has bullied Kohli in India again he came up short.
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Those can be overlooked because he has proven himself at least in one ICC event (2013 CT).

If he flops in the next two WC's and is unable to make an influence on the outcome like AB has in every SF or Final he has played, then you can say it.

Kohli has holes in his record but he is building an exceptional record and already has ICC silverware to support his claim to being ODI GOAT. Strong performances in KO matches in the World Cup will only seal the deal.
 
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Aman said:
Those can be overlooked because he has proven himself at least in one ICC event (2013 CT).

If he flops in the next two WC's and is unable to make an influence on the outcome like AB has in every SF or Final he has played, then you can say it.

Kohli has holes in his record but he is building an exceptional record and already has ICC silverware to support his claim to being ODI GOAT. Strong performances in KO matches in the World Cup will only seal the deal.
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And Kohli has already proved his mark in T20 world cups. Was the Man of the Series in two consecutive WT20s(2014&2016), played some clutch and high pressure knocks, did well in knockouts, in fact, was fantastic even in the matches India lost. That was his dominance. Those who doubt Kohi's credentials should look at his performances in those ICC events. These performances in the shortest format are a testimony and a sign that it's only a matter of time before he delivers in ODI WC. He will no doubt end up as a better player than AB, but for the time being, AB is ahead.
 
It's funny that this is a comparison.

Kohli is arguably entering his peak and will likely play into his late 30's like a lot of SC cricketers do, while AB is done after the next WC at the age of 35.

Kohli will likely obliterate AB's ODI record and still has another 2, possibly 3 WC"s left in him.

The next WC will define AB, there will be a huge mark against him if he fails to win a WC for his country.
 
King Kong said:
Not that I agree with Kohli being better than AB. But why NZ? Weren't Sri Lanka a much better side than NZ. Heck Sri Lanka was more successful than South Africa having been finalists in back to back world cups. What was South Africa? Why don't ask him to list out his performances in Sri Lanka?

India is an average team outside Asia because lack of good fast bowlers and with spinners having little effect in the outcome of the game. The best you should expect from Indian batsmen is to score and score. That's not the case with SA as they had a much better bowling lineup and once their batsmen score runs, it's pretty much a given that they are going to win the game. Kohli had a good tour of South Africa in 2011, scored a ton in in that India's disastrous tour of England in 2011, that hobart knock in Australia, 183 vs Pakistan chasing 330, lone warrior in India's tour of NZ in 2014 and in 2016 in Australia. The list goes on and on. Kohli has played some tremendous knocks in his career so far. Don't put down Kohli just to make AB look bigger. You don't actually have to do it as many, including me, consider AB as better than Kohli.
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NZ, SA, ENG and Australia have been very tough in their conditions including the conditions themselves with decent bowlers.
Mills, Vetori, Southee, Boult: AB has dominated them all, it makes no sense to come up with excuses. Bullied McGrath in the 07 WC. Ajmal, Starc, Tait, Johnson etc he's dominated irrespective of the conditions or opposition.

On what basis is Kohli better than AB, coz even in WC people like to rave about he's been outclassed. I'm struggling to comprehend why Kohli is better than AB., I really do. He's won a series in Australia, India, UAE and NZ and performed well.
 
soso_killer said:
NZ, SA, ENG and Australia have been very tough in their conditions including the conditions themselves with decent bowlers.
Mills, Vetori, Southee, Boult: AB has dominated them all, it makes no sense to come up with excuses. Bullied McGrath in the 07 WC. Ajmal, Starc, Tait, Johnson etc he's dominated irrespective of the conditions or opposition.

On what basis is Kohli better than AB, coz even in WC people like to rave about he's been outclassed. I'm struggling to comprehend why Kohli is better than AB., I really do. He's won a series in Australia, India, UAE and NZ and performed well.
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You just need to see him bat.

He's the perfect batsmen. Can accumulate and finish, has the ability to slog, is mentally strong, determined and has a touch of class in his strokes. AB is good no doubt, but I felt that he moves around too much and doesn't have the same class or elegance.

You could argue he's already surpassed AB. Was there ever a time where AB was considered the best or in the top 2 or 3 in Tests?
 
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Aman said:
You just need to see him bat.

He's the perfect batsmen. Can accumulate and finish, has the ability to slog, mentally strong, determined and has a touch of class in his strokes. AB is good no doubt, but I feel that he moves around too much, overthinks things often and doesn't have the same class, elegance or composure.

You could argue he's already surpassed AB in Test cricket too.

Was there ever a time where AB was considered the best or in the top 2 or 3 in Tests?
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Edit^
 
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Kohli and Smith, those two are so damn annoying for the opposition.

Every time they come out to bat I expect them to score runs and win the match for their sides....

Absolutely hate them as an opposition fan :))
 
Aman said:
Those can be overlooked because he has proven himself at least in one ICC event (2013 CT).

If he flops in the next two WC's and is unable to make an influence on the outcome like AB has in every SF or Final he has played, then you can say it.

Kohli has holes in his record but he is building an exceptional record and already has ICC silverware to support his claim to being ODI GOAT. Strong performances in KO matches in the World Cup will only seal the deal.
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This is speculative, I don't have a crystal ball nor am I a fortuneteller. Your claim is that Kohli is better than AB at this very moment and you've failed to prove anything. Your logic is that Kohli will come good in the future, then by your own admission Kohli is not good enough.
Why is it so hard to come with the list i requested then. Surely it should be easy for a guy that's currently better than AB instead of a speculative rant.
 
soso_killer said:
NZ, SA, ENG and Australia have been very tough in their conditions including the conditions themselves with decent bowlers.
Mills, Vetori, Southee, Boult: AB has dominated them all, it makes no sense to come up with excuses. Bullied McGrath in the 07 WC. Ajmal, Starc, Tait, Johnson etc he's dominated irrespective of the conditions or opposition.

On what basis is Kohli better than AB, coz even in WC people like to rave about he's been outclassed. I'm struggling to comprehend why Kohli is better than AB., I really do. He's won a series in Australia, India, UAE and NZ and performed well.
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1. You have to look at the no.of high scoring games in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh and compare it to those of NZ/AUS in the last 7-8 years and analyse for it yourself. Difficult to score more in those conditions especially against the likes of Malinga, Kulasekara(was no.1 ODI bowler) and their spinners.

2. Though AB is clearly ahead of Kohli for now, I understand why many rate Kohli higher. It's because of his chasing ability and hunger to score runs in pressure situations. Single handedly led his team to finals and semifinals in 2014 and 2016 T20 WCs. Was stupendous even in semifinals and finals that India lost while AB has been a complete failure in WT20s and having done not much in ODI WCs hasn't helped his cause either. People see those performances of Kohli in WT20s as a testament that he will do well in 50 over WC as well and end up as a better player than AB or even the GOAT.
 
soso_killer said:
This is speculative, I don't have a crystal ball nor am I a fortuneteller. Your claim is that Kohli is better than AB at this very moment and you've failed to prove anything. Your logic is that Kohli will come good in the future, then by your own admission Kohli is not good enough.
Why is it so hard to come with the list i requested then. Surely it should be easy for a guy that's currently better than AB instead of a speculative rant.
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I mean't he would correct those gaps in his record, he's too good not to.

If Guptill, Azam and Rohit can score 100's against Australia, Virat Kohli most definitely can.

Only a matter of time, we both know that.
 
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Aman said:
You just need to see him bat.

He's the perfect batsmen. Can accumulate and finish, has the ability to slog, is mentally strong, determined and has a touch of class in his strokes. AB is good no doubt, but I felt that he moves around too much and doesn't have the same class or elegance.

You could argue he's already surpassed AB. Was there ever a time where AB was considered the best or in the top 2 or 3 in Tests?
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who do i need to see bat?
 
King Kong said:
1. You have to look at the no.of high scoring games in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh and compare it to those of NZ/AUS in the last 7-8 years and analyse for it yourself. Difficult to score more in those conditions especially against the likes of Malinga, Kulasekara(was no.1 ODI bowler) and their spinners.

2. Though AB is clearly ahead of Kohli for now, I understand why many rate Kohli higher. It's because of his chasing ability and hunger to score runs in pressure situations. Single handedly led his team to finals and semifinals in 2014 and 2016 T20 WCs. Was stupendous even in semifinals and finals that India lost while AB has been a complete failure in WT20s and having done not much in ODI WCs hasn't helped his cause either. People see those performances of Kohli in WT20s as a testament that he will do well in 50 over WC as well and end up as a better player than AB or even the GOAT.
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I have no horse in this race.

I hate Kohli's arrogance, but the dude is determined to succeed and talented as hell.

AB is talented too, but I absolutely hate how big of a dud he is when it comes to pressure situations. A mental midget, I hate players like that in every sport. AB will never come close to surpassing Viv, Kohli has the potential to do that. I just can't see him being superior to Kohli who ticks a lot more boxes and has the mental strength to become the games greatest ever ODI player, he's already T20 GOAT.
 
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King Kong said:
1. You have to look at the no.of high scoring games in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh and compare it to those of NZ/AUS in the last 7-8 years and analyse for it yourself. Difficult to score more in those conditions especially against the likes of Malinga, Kulasekara(was no.1 ODI bowler) and their spinners.

2. Though AB is clearly ahead of Kohli for now, I understand why many rate Kohli higher. It's because of his chasing ability and hunger to score runs in pressure situations. Single handedly led his team to finals and semifinals in 2014 and 2016 T20 WCs. Was stupendous even in semifinals and finals that India lost while AB has been a complete failure in WT20s and having done not much in ODI WCs hasn't helped his cause either. People see those performances of Kohli in WT20s as a testament that he will do well in 50 over WC as well and end up as a better player than AB or even the GOAT.
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Then why can't he win matches in easy tracks like SA, NZ AUS & ENG? That's like 50-60% of the decent ODI nations. If I'm not mistaken Kohli has at least 30+ matches and has failed to inspire his side. Why?
AB is not just winning one or two matches, but he's winning series after series away from home.
 
soso_killer said:
Then why can't he win matches in easy tracks like SA, NZ AUS & ENG? That's like 50-60% of the decent ODI nations. If I'm not mistaken Kohli has at least 30+ matches and has failed to inspire his side. Why?
AB is not just winning one or two matches, but he's winning series after series away from home.
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Context.

He's played 5 games in NZ and on that tour literally no one was contributing.

It was Kohli vs against an extremely strong NZ side, the game was 99% won once he got him out.
 
Aman said:
I mean't he would correct those gaps in his record, he's too good not to.

If Guptill, Azam and Rohit can score 100's against Australia, Virat Kohli most definitely can.

Only a matter of time, we both know that.
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you just answered yourself haven't you?
Until he does he's nowhere near AB.
AUS, UAE, ENG, SA, NZ that's a lot of catching up to do mate.
Future predictions are worthless.
 
[MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION] I hope you're still here in a few years time, by then I get the feeling you will be singing another tune.

I was a Kohli doubter too, but the guy has proven me wrong time and time again :))
 
soso_killer said:
Then why can't he win matches in easy tracks like SA, NZ AUS & ENG? That's like 50-60% of the decent ODI nations. If I'm not mistaken Kohli has at least 30+ matches and has failed to inspire his side. Why?
AB is not just winning one or two matches, but he's winning series after series away from home.
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One player can't win games on his own. In sub-continent, he has the support of his bowlers. That's why his runs yielded in wins for India while outside Asia, the same bowlers become inefficient, due to which many of his runs and centuries couldn't win for India. It's not as if he failed outside Asia. His average is quite healthy.

Add to that, other Indian batsmen aren't as dominant outside Asia as they are in.
 
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soso_killer said:
you just answered yourself haven't you?
Until he does he's nowhere near AB.
AUS, UAE, ENG, SA, NZ that's a lot of catching up to do mate.
Future predictions are worthless.
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He averages 62 in NZ with 1 ton and 2 fifties in 5 games against a very strong NZ side :)))

If India had one more form batsmen, they probably would have won more games.

Their batting was pretty bad that series with Kohli the only one stepping up on his very first visit.

Don't think Kohli has played a single game in the UAE and has won India several games in England.
 
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Aman said:
Context.

He's played 5 games in NZ and on that tour literally no one was contributing.

It was Kohli vs against an extremely strong NZ side, the game was 99% won once he got him out.
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5 games not a single match won.
Then there's SA, ENG, Aus which is 30+ games including NZ. That's context.
What you're coming up with is a bunch of excuses.
Guess what SA will win a World Cuo in 21 thousand and something. Do my predictions count? Or should we live that to you?
 
Aman said:
[MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION] I hope you're still here in a few years time, by then I get the feeling you will be singing another tune.

I was a Kohli doubter too, but the guy has proven me wrong time and time again :))
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he's proven me right time and time again.....
 
King Kong said:
One player can't win games on his own. In sub-continent, he has the support of his bowlers. That's why his runs yielded in wins for India while outside Asia, the same bowlers become inefficient, due to which many of his runs and centuries couldn't win for India. It's not as if he failed outside Asia. His average is quite healthy.

Add to that, other Indian batsmen aren't as dominant outside Asia as they are in.
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I honestly don't accept this argument. It never goes both ways. I could also come up with a bunch of excuses for AB.
 
Aman said:
He averages 62 in NZ with 1 ton and 2 fifties in 5 games against a very strong NZ side :)))

If India had one more form batsmen, they probably would have won more games.

Their batting was pretty bad that series with Kohli the only one stepping up on his very first visit.

Don't think Kohli has played a single game in the UAE and has won India several games in England.
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And what does AB average there : yk
 
soso_killer said:
I honestly don't accept this argument. It never goes both ways. I could also come up with a bunch of excuses for AB.
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Haha. As I said, except few, no one rates Kohli higher than AB for now. Based on potential and probability, Kohli will likely trump AB in few years time.
 
King Kong said:
Haha. As I said, except few, no one rates Kohli higher than AB for now. Based on potential and probability, Kohli will likely trump AB in few years time.
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Another person could come with a bunch of reason as two why a prodigy like QdK will surpass Kohli, which includes bullying Kohli in his backyard.
Does that make QdK better than Kohli currently?
 
soso_killer said:
Another person could come with a bunch of reason as two why a prodigy like QdK will surpass Kohli, which includes bullying Kohli in his backyard.
Does that make QdK better than Kohli currently?
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Except that QDK hasn't has scored 27 ODI hundreds, 17 while chasing, after playing 175 games. He has barely played 80 games. He might well surpass Kohli. Who knows. You could make a case for QDK trumping Kohli in the future going by his stats so far. Who stopped you or anyone?
 
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soso_killer said:
what about India, Australia have dominated them too?
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India tend to struggle away from home because of a lack of quality in their fast bowling stocks. SA have never really had that issue, it's unfair to constantly bring down Kohli's W/L record when one side of his team is so poor and out of his control. AB on the other hand has had a strong batting and bowling line up to back him up for most of his career, he can rely on his bowlers to deliver away from home.
 
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King Kong said:
Except that QDK hasn't has scored 27 ODI hundreds, 17 while chasing, after playing 175 games. He has barely played 80 games. He might well surpass Kohli. Who knows. You could make a case for QDK trumping Kohli in the future going by his stats so far. Who stopped you or anyone?
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Kohli hasn't won a match in SA, ENG, AUS & NZ with the bat but is better than the greats of the game.
Going by future prediction then QdK>Kohli >AB, right?
 
Aman said:
India tend to struggle away from home because of a lack of quality in their fast bowling stocks. SA have never really had that issue, it's unfair to constantly bring down Kohli's W/L record when one side of his team is so poor and out of his control. AB on the other hand has had a strong batting and bowling line up to back him up for most of his career, he can rely on his bowlers to deliver away from home.
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India's bowling in India is stronger than South Africa's in India. Doesn't stop the likes of AB from performing and winning there.
 
soso_killer said:
Kohli hasn't won a match in SA, ENG, AUS & NZ with the bat but is better than the greats of the game.
Going by future prediction then QdK>Kohli >AB, right?
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What's bigger? Not winning a single match in those countries, or not winning a single KO game for your country in a career spanning more than a decade.
 
Prediction 1:

Kohli will dominate the 2019 WC and win his team the WC by also being the player of tournament.

Predictions 2:

AB was lucky not to play the WC final or else he would have suffered a humiliating defeat.
 
Aman said:
What's bigger? Not winning a single match in those countries, or not winning a single KO game for your country in a career spanning more than a decade.
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How many matches and innings are we talking about from both perspectives?
And how do we acquaint for the rained match with Boult and Southee having only 4 overs at the death?
How will that be fixed?
 
soso_killer said:
How many matches and innings are we talking about from both perspectives?
And how do we acquaint for the rained match with Boult and Southee having only 4 overs at the death?
How will that be fixed?
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Well, Kohli has had multiple T20 innings (a stage where AB has again flopped), several CT performances and a WC century against Pakistan (a big notch on the belt for any Indian batsmen).

AB has one what 'if' and one last WC to make a mark.

What kind of GOAT can't even win his team a WC in a 8 team tournament...
 
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[MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION] if AB doesn't win SA a WC, what will be his legacy? All that talent translated into zero ODI trophies. History likes winners who carried their sides to glory, not talented players who couldn't get their side over the line when it mattered most.
 
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Aman said:
Well, Kohli has had multiple T20 innings (a stage where AB has again flopped), several CT performances and a WC century against Pakistan (a big notch on the belt for any Indian batsmen).

AB has one what 'if' and one last WC to make a mark.

What kind of GOAT can't even win his team a WC in a 8 team tournament...
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AB has done well in WC which is all that matters.
We can't have different parameters to judge players it's either a player performs and wins matches or he doesn't.
Tendulkar had 5 or 6 WC why don't we ask him how easy it was?
 
soso_killer said:
AB has done well in WC which is all that matters.
We can't have different parameters to judge players it's either a player performs and wins matches or he doesn't.
Tendulkar had 5 or 6 WC why don't we ask him how easy it was?
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He wouldn't have been looked at the same without 2011 and you know it.

Paul Heyman said it best "Yeah, but..." [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]
 
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Aman said:
[MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION] if AB doesn't win SA a WC, what will be his legacy? All that talent translated into zero ODI trophies. History likes winners who carried their sides to glory, not talented players who couldn't get their side over the line when it mattered most.
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What is Tendulkar's legacy in Test cricket?
Never won a series in two of the greatest Test nations of all time. But history likes winners?
When does history bend its rules? When it suits certain individuals?
 
soso_killer said:
What is Tendulkar's legacy in Test cricket?
Never won a series in two of the greatest Test nations of all time. But history likes winners?
When does history bend its rules? When it suits certain individuals?
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Not his fault he never had the pacers to win there.

AB doesn't have that excuse, SA had a strong side in 2011 and 2015 and still failed.
 
Aman said:
He wouldn't have been looked at the same without 2011 and you know it.

Paul Heyman said it best "Yeah, but..." [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]
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Nope Tendulkar was hailed way before that, no buts or if.
Otherwise it would be the same in Tests too where he failed to inspire his side to series wins in SA & Aus, but that's not the case. He's rightfully regarded the best Test bat, and rightly so.
 
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soso_killer said:
Nope Tendulkar was hailed way before that, no buts or if.
Otherwise it would be the same in Tests too where he failed to inspire his side to series wins in SA & Aus, but that's not the case. He's rightfully regarded the best Test bat, and rightly so.
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I imagine 18,000 runs and 49 centuries would do that, the odds are Kohli will most likely break his most tons record.

It's almost impossible for a SC batsmen to win you matches in those countries alone, unless other circumstances weaken the opposition.
 
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Aman said:
I imagine 18,000 runs and 49 centuries would do that, the odds are Kohli will most likely break his most tons record and push the most runs record.

It's almost impossible for a SC batsmen to win you matches in those countries alone, unless other circumstances weaken the opposition.
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Edit^
 
I can guarantee you that most PPers and critics would have been on Sachin's case if didn't win a WC in his career.

It's a huge gap in any great players career, even worse when you have a side more than capable of winning miss out multiple times.
 
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Aman said:
Not his fault he never had the pacers to win there.

AB doesn't have that excuse, SA had a strong side in 2011 and 2015 and still failed.
Click to expand...

What did SA bats average in the 2011 WC? Was it his fault he was run out from his blind spot in the Quarters?
And what about 2015? He didn't bat in the quarters, was brilliant in the semis, Is rain AB fault too?

Can you post a link of South Africa's batting average in WC's since AB debuted in 07 excluding associate nations (Zim and Bangladesh too)? Only then can we have a clear picture of what's going on.
 
Aman said:
I imagine 18,000 runs and 49 centuries would do that, the odds are Kohli will most likely break his most tons record.

It's almost impossible for a SC batsmen to win you matches in those countries alone, unless other circumstances weaken the opposition.
Click to expand...

And 9000 runs striking at 100 plus averaging 54 with match winning performances in an array of conditions is something to be scoffed at?
 
soso_killer said:
What did SA bats average in the 2011 WC? Was it his fault he was run out from his blind spot in the Quarters?
And what about 2015? He didn't bat in the quarters, was brilliant in the semis, Is rain AB fault too?

Can you post a link of South Africa's batting average in WC's since AB debuted in 07 excluding associate nations (Zim and Bangladesh too)? Only then can we have a clear picture of what's going on.
Click to expand...
Does it matter?

AB failed in the 2007 WC SF and 2011 WC QF.
 
^Then there's his other epic failures in the WT20 and CT.
 
2011 QF - SA fail to chase 221 against NZ.
2007 SF - Australia bowled out for 149 in the first innings.
 
Aman said:
I can guarantee you that most PPers and critics would have been on Sachin's case if didn't win a WC in his career.

It's a huge gap in any great players career, even worse when you have a side more than capable of winning miss out multiple times.
Click to expand...

SA were weak around 04-07 and yet Tendulkar never ceased the initiative of winning a Test series here.
AB and Amla were nothing players. Pollock on his last legs. Yet a side with the likes of Dravid,,Laxman, Tendulkar, Ganguly etc failed to win against a rookie side with an out of form Kallis.
 
soso_killer said:
SA were weak around 04-07 and yet Tendulkar never ceased the initiative of winning a Test series here.
AB and Amla were nothing players. Pollock on his last legs. Yet a side with the likes of Dravid,,Laxman, Tendulkar, Ganguly etc failed to win against a rookie side with an out of form Kallis.
Click to expand...
Do you even remember who their pacers were back then? :))
 
Aman said:
Does it matter?

AB failed in the 2007 WC SF and 2011 WC QF.
Click to expand...

it does matter, you keep on talking about context in moment and neglecting it when it suits you.

2007 was his first WC and gave a good account of himself.
In 2011 i think he made the team of the tournament IIRC. Was run out when he was knew at the pitch.
And then the 2015 debacle.
I'd like to see a list of SA top performers in WC's so we can accurately pinpoint the blame. It makes zero sense to blame a guy that's performing when others aren't holding their weight.
How is it possible to burden a player with the responsibility of winning and excuse the other?
 
Chief Destroyer said:
He batted at 4 last innings. The reason why he shifts between these two spots is because the lower order is not reliable enough to construct an innings. If he's dismissed early, they are prone to collapsing. Miller and the allrounders are only a threat if there's a foundation. If 5-6 were reliable batsmen, there's no reason he'd bat at 5. Duminy and Miller aren't. They are quite often walking wickets against quality bowlers.
Click to expand...

The rewards of ABD batting at number 4 far outweigh the negatives.

Also there is not a heaven or earth difference between number 4 and number 5 when it comes to chances of staying at the end overs...but there is a huge difference in the number of balls faced.

As you said, Miller and co are threat only if there is a foundation....ABD at 4 can give them the foundation they need. They can score lots quickly so that by the time he gets out, others have it easy.

Yes, SA may lose a few matches due to their lower order collapsing but they will win a lot more crucial games too if ABD clicks.

ABD played at number 5 last to last game.

He should make it a point to come at 4 and get used to it.

soso_killer said:
let's not get carried away. Kohli never wins anything outside India
Click to expand...

Despite that, he gets regarded as the best ODI bat amongst fans and critics.

And despite all the genius of ABD, he never gets talked about as the number 1 test or ODI or T20 or clutch bat.

Bilal7 said:
Easy there, buddy. AB may or may not be achieving his potential but he's still operating on a different level to everyone else playing the game today. AB is a 95 rating player, who some people think can go up to 98. Kohli is a 90 and comfortably below him.
Click to expand...

On talent level, ABD is probably number 2 or who knows even number 1.

Top 3 minimum.

When it comes to using that talent to maximize his output for the team's cause, he is not doing what needs to be done. Operating at a different level to everyone (while true) is meaningless if your strategy is all wrong.

He would need a LOT more luck to go his way to win games batting at number 5 than at 4.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
The rewards of ABD batting at number 4 far outweigh the negatives.

Also there is not a heaven or earth difference between number 4 and number 5 when it comes to chances of staying at the end overs...but there is a huge difference in the number of balls faced.

As you said, Miller and co are threat only if there is a foundation....ABD at 4 can give them the foundation they need. They can score lots quickly so that by the time he gets out, others have it easy.

Yes, SA may lose a few matches due to their lower order collapsing but they will win a lot more crucial games too if ABD clicks.

ABD played at number 5 last to last game.

He should make it a point to come at 4 and get used to it.



Despite that, he gets regarded as the best ODI bat amongst fans and critics.

And despite all the genius of ABD, he never gets talked about as the number 1 test or ODI or T20 or clutch bat.



On talent level, ABD is probably number 2 or who knows even number 1.

Top 3 minimum.

When it comes to using that talent to maximize his output for the team's cause, he is not doing what needs to be done. Operating at a different level to everyone (while true) is meaningless if your strategy is all wrong.

He would need a LOT more luck to go his way to win games batting at number 5 than at 4.
Click to expand...
I'd say AB is definitely more naturally talented than Kohli.

Kohli is a machine with a phenomenal work ethic and drive to be the best. It feels like there isn't anything he cannot not accomplish if he sets his mind to it. IMO, he is the perfect batsmen in ODI cricket. He knows how to pace his innings depending on the what the game demands, has the mental strength to cope with RR pressure and only that, but he's capable of finishing games once he's in.

AB just doesn't come close when you consider the roles Kohli can play and his mental toughness to never give matches up and to stay in the fight till the end.
 
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sensible-indian-fan said:
The rewards of ABD batting at number 4 far outweigh the negatives.

Also there is not a heaven or earth difference between number 4 and number 5 when it comes to chances of staying at the end overs...but there is a huge difference in the number of balls faced.

As you said, Miller and co are threat only if there is a foundation....ABD at 4 can give them the foundation they need. They can score lots quickly so that by the time he gets out, others have it easy.

Yes, SA may lose a few matches due to their lower order collapsing but they will win a lot more crucial games too if ABD clicks.

ABD played at number 5 last to last game.

He should make it a point to come at 4 and get used to it.



Despite that, he gets regarded as the best ODI bat amongst fans and critics.

And despite all the genius of ABD, he never gets talked about as the number 1 test or ODI or T20 or clutch bat.



On talent level, ABD is probably number 2 or who knows even number 1.

Top 3 minimum.

When it comes to using that talent to maximize his output for the team's cause, he is not doing what needs to be done. Operating at a different level to everyone (while true) is meaningless if your strategy is all wrong.
He would need a LOT more luck to go his way to win games batting at number 5 than at 4.
Click to expand...

AB is regarded as the number one bat and best bat of his generation by lots of pundits and neutral fans. Even ranked as no1 if I'm mistaken
Even by Indians, you only have to go as far back to SA visit to Indian shores and listen to the commentary.
AB has no peers as far as ODI's are concerned. That's not up for debate really.

His best position is @4, but there'll be horses for courses from time to time to protect mental midgets. And I'm sure this series is used to get the likes of JP amongst the runs. For to long SA has relied on three or four players. They're trying to change that. The series wins against the Aussies has given everyone a sense of responsibility.
Come the Champions Trophy the likes of JP can have no excuses about limited batting opportunities. SA have one eye on the CT hence the heavy rotation amongst the bowlers and alternating batting positions a bit. I expect AB to bat at 4 for the decider.
 
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