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New Zealand [280/3] defeat South Africa [279/8] by 7 wickets in the 4th ODI to level the series 2-2

Aman said:
That's why I don't think he'll succeed higher in the order. I get the feeling he'll overthink things and get himself out when he has 40 or more overs to play.
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How can you say that when he hasn't batted up the order yaar?

He did very well wherever he has batted.

If he can play this knock on a turner (I heard) with the old ball...imagine what he could have done with a harder ball.

Its just that his strategy is all wrong and its hard to sympathize with him when he intentionally goes down the order.

Forever the bridesmaid...never the bride.

Still there is time to change.
 
This is what happens when players get starts and not convert them to big scores.
We've gotten away with it once to many this series.
 
Number 4 is fine for him. Du Plessis has been doing well at 3 for last couple of years.

Playing at 5, below Duminy however is criminal.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
He used to and I applauded him.

But he dropped down the order for 2 games in a row now.

I can't express my disgust in words.


The cricketers I get most angry with are those who have ability but don't use it.
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He batted at 4 last innings. The reason why he shifts between these two spots is because the lower order is not reliable enough to construct an innings. If he's dismissed early, they are prone to collapsing. Miller and the allrounders are only a threat if there's a foundation. If 5-6 were reliable batsmen, there's no reason he'd bat at 5. Duminy and Miller aren't. They are quite often walking wickets against quality bowlers.
 
Guptill has made this pitch look easier than it is. Had he been dismissed early, NZ would've been struggling. Sometimes you just have to credit the opposition for outplaying you on that day/night.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
There is no excuse for ABD to not bat up at 4 or 3.

WC I could understand it but this....after ABD has been consistently batting up at 4 till recently (except last game)?

Useless fellow.

So much talent but so little impact cos he doesn't have a functioning brain.

Will always remain number 2 to Kohli cos he was too stupid to not take the initiative.
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let's not get carried away. Kohli never wins anything outside India
 
AB's game is suited for a #5 player. That's been his position for the longest time, whether that be tests or ODIs and that is where he has been most effective.

He can and has batted at #4, when needed, but #3 isn't his spot. Imagine him getting out to a ripper by a new ball bowler and then South Africa being left with Duminy and Behardien to finish the innings.

Besides, if AB bats at #3, where will Faf bat? He's a grinder who takes deliveries to settle in first before becoming more fluent and #4 wouldn't be a good spot for someone like him.

Misbah got the same stick for batting at #5 but people need to understand that batting positions have a lot of impact and if AB doesn't like the top order, you can't force him up there. He's at his best when Amla, de Kock and Faf have set up a great platform and he comes out to bat after the 30th over. Then he takes that great total, attaches it to a rocket and sends it to the moon.

This is a tough pitch to bat on, for those of you who just tuned it. The Kiwi spinners were getting a lot of turn and grip and the only reason the Saffers are going to lose is because they didn't pick the right team and haven't bowled well to Guptill, who has been superb. The batsmen, least of all, AB, are not at fault here.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
He used to and I applauded him.

But he dropped down the order for 2 games in a row now.

I can't express my disgust in words.

The cricketers I get most angry with are those who have ability but don't use it.
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Easy there, buddy. AB may or may not be achieving his potential but he's still operating on a different level to everyone else playing the game today. AB is a 95 rating player, who some people think can go up to 98. Kohli is a 90 and comfortably below him.
 
Aman said:
Kohli is 95, AB is 91.
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95 is about as many runs Kohli has scored in wins, against Australia, England and South Africa, in their backyards.

I'm being a little generous with that 90 rating.
 
Bilal7 said:
95 is about as many runs Kohli has scored in wins, against Australia, England and South Africa, in their backyards.

I'm being a little generous with that 90 rating.
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AB wishes he could score 90 runs in a KO match.
 
172* Guptill.

Needs 14 to overtake Watson as the highest second innings score ever in ODI history.
 
Guptill has smoked 9 sixes. Three more than the Saffers managed all together.
 
Guptill won us that game on his own.

We wouldn't have chased that without him and probably would have been 220 all out.
 
I would agree with other posters here that AB should bat atleast at 4 in any circumstance whether the score reads 20-2 or 150-2.

There is absolutely no reason why he shouldn't bat higher. His 72 today could have well been a 100* if he batted up the order.

In the previous inning, he batted at 4 and played a quality match winning knock of 85 but its important for him to know that he has to bat higher to make most of the impact towards the game.
 
Chief Destroyer said:
If you were to be fair without bias, anyone who watched that semi knows AB was set for a hundred had it not rained.
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Well there's no if's in cricket.

AB has one more WC left in his career to prove he can do it.

Kohli has 3 or 4 left and I know he'll score several 100's in important matches.
 
Top scores when chasing in ODIs:

185* Watson v Bangladesh
183* Dhoni v Sri Lanka
183 Kohli v Pakistan
180* Guptill v South Africa
 
Aman said:
Guptill isn't talked up as a GOAT ODI batsmen.
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You dont need to be a GOAT to do it especially when you are an opener. Does Guptill has a half century vs any of top7 even opening the batting in WCs?
 
Ab Fan said:
You dont need to be a GOAT to do it especially when you are an opener. Does Guptill has a half century vs any of top7 even opening the batting?
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I don't know, I haven't seen his record in ICC events.

No century or marquee performance that leads the side to victory in a ICC KO match is a HUGE hole in the record for a GOAT contender.
 
Aman said:
I don't know, I haven't seen his record in ICC events.

No century or marquee performance that leads the side to victory in a ICC KO match is a HUGE hole in the record for a GOAT contender.
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Ofcourse I won't consider anyone with that hole a GOAT.But you have to look at several other aspects too and how has things fared in that department for the given batsmen.
 
Ab Fan said:
Ofcourse I won't consider anyone with that hole a GOAT.But you have to look at several other aspects too and how has things fared in that department for the given batsmen.
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I wouldn't consider anyone with that hole even a contender.

IMO, MSD > AB.

He plays the same role as AB essentially and led his side to victory in the 2011 WC.
 
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This is a top knock by Guptul though, perhaps SA erred by not picking an extra spinner. Then again with the frequent middle order collapses it left us no choice. Parnell played a vital cameo in the back end of the innings, dropping him would have exposed us today.

AB played a brilliant knock today and he gets the blame? LOL, where did he bat in the last match and why was he not criticised for his MOM performance?
Let me guess? Didn't suit the agenda hey?


If anyone has an inkling knowledge about SA cricket they'd know we've always carried passengers or talented blokes who crumble at the first sight of pressure.

SA had a similar conundrum with Kallis in Tests. He used to bat at three, averaged a decent 49 there. However this brutally exposed a fragile batting unit. As soon as Kallis and Kirsten were out we'd fall like a deck of cards.
Put the likes of Cullinan next to Kallis or Kirsten then watch them score double tons and become immortals. That's the sad reality.
So SA decided to "hide" Kallis at four, The result?
SA had better stability and won more matches/became hard to beat.

AB batting at 5 is to protect a fragile middle order. Even the likes of Faf are inconsistent, bar his 185 against a nothing Lanka side. That was his best knock in a crisis situation with Amla/QdK/AB being in the shed. Miller did it too, but it was against a third grade Aussie attack.

We don't have players who can win matches against the top sides with their grade A bowling attack bar Amla, QdK and AB. Faf won't win a game with Miller or JP, one of Amla, QdK or AB must be at the other end.

While AB should bat at 4, however there should be horses for courses. There's a reason SA wins more matches than it loses even away. That's being tactically smart. Like anything in life tactics won't always come off. Hence they'll be debate and dialogs.
However the the Einstein's can't pick and choose when to criticise a strategy, that's trolling with the benefit of hindsight. Why wasn't AB's batting position not up for debate in the previous match?

Bringing up the WC when the pitch was swinging makes zero sense. NZ had their strategy SA had theirs. If anyone paid notice McCullum over attacked, the likes of Boult and Southee had bowled more than 8 overs before the 40th over. They were brutally exposed for the slog overs. But rain intervened, whether came at four the results wouldn't have been different. There's no way anyone could have attacked in that pitch before the 30th over. Even then McCullum wanted AB's wicket at any cost because he knew what it would mean if AB wasn't there during the slog overs.
 
Aman said:
I wouldn't consider anyone with that hole even a contender.

IMO, MSD > AB.

He plays the same role as AB essentially and led his side to victory in the 2011 WC.
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no. you are wrong.
anyone>devilliers.
 
Aman said:
I wouldn't consider anyone with that hole even a contender.

IMO, MSD > AB.

He plays the same role as AB essentially and led his side to victory in the 2011 WC.
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Dhoni's record in WC + ICC tournaments:

Avgs close to 30 or something vs top 8 teams with only one individual solid performance over a good sample set.

I certainly won't have him as a batsmen ahead of AB unless we are talking of them on whole (Keeping+ captaincy).He will also lose many games for me.
 
Faf is the culprit here, you can't bat at a SR of 60 and not convert it to a ton and make up for the wasted balls. And no 3 is his best position.
 
Aman said:
AB is a great player, but grossly overrated.

There's no shame in being behind the likes of Sachin, Ponting, Kohli and Dhoni.
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Name the entire indian team... You forget Ghambir and Yuvraj Singh who also performed in KO in WC's.
 
soso_killer said:
wasn't that Yuvi?
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Exactly. The best bat going around was Yuvi not Dhoni. Dhoni saved Yuvi from Murali in WC final.That tactics worked and hence no one puts that argument while for AB it didnt worked.So, we are all up for debate.

AB's position is equivalent to Yuvi's position for India not Dhoni's position. That could be analysed easily through the fact that there is a huge difference in no. Of hundreds they have.

AB -24 hundreds.
Dhoni-9 hundreds.
 
soso_killer said:
wasn't that Yuvi?
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91 (79)

MS-Dhoni-2011-final.jpg
 
Ab Fan said:
Exactly. The best bat going around was Yuvi not Dhoni. Dhoni saved Yuvi from Murali in WC final.That tactics worked and hence no one puts that argument while for AB it didnt worked.So, we are all up for debate.

AB's position is equivalent to Yuvi's position for India not Dhoni's position. That could be analysed easily through the fact that there is a huge difference in no. Of hundreds they have.

AB -24 hundreds.
Dhoni-9 hundreds.
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Dhoni is one of the best ever finishers.

What is AB? Neither a great top order batsmen and neither a great finisher.

He can't handle pressure nor is he an ATG batsmen who holds the teams innings together, he's a batsmen who thrives with platforms but is incapable of finishing despite his talent.
 
Aman said:
Kohli is 95, AB is 91.
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meh... the two don't belong in the same court. Else we should start comparing Steyn and Ashwin in Tests.
Who's a better match winner?
Surely it's Ashwin, i remember reading something like 15 five-fors or 10 wicket hauls in a space of 22 matches. Steyn doesn't come close to that.
 
soso_killer said:
meh... the two don't belong in the same court. Else we should start comparing Steyn and Ashwin in Tests.
Who's a better match winner?
Surely it's Ashwin, i remember reading something like 15 five-fors or 10 wicket hauls in a space of 22 matches. Steyn doesn't come close to that.
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There is no one I fear more than Kohli in LOI's. He's a match winner, never feel that AB can take the game away like Kohli can. Totally on another level to AB IMO.
 
Aman said:
AB is a great player, but grossly overrated.

There's no shame in being behind the likes of Sachin, Ponting, Kohli and Dhoni.
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One cant have 3 Indians in top 5 bat of all time when we have won just 1 WC with the three there.That is overrating things up.Be neutral enough.
 
Ab Fan said:
One cant have 3 Indians in top 5 bat of all time when we have won just 1 WC with the three there.That is overrating things up.Be neutral enough.
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Kohli - on the way to breaking all batting records in ODI's.
Dhoni - ATG finisher who won a WC for his country with a great innings in the WC Final.
Tendulkar - 18,400 runs and 49 tons.
 
Guptill magic squares series for NZ


Captain AB de Villiers and Faf du Plessis both hit half centuries, but it was not enough as Martin Guptill’s fine ton helped New Zealand to a series-levelling, seven-wicket win over the Standard Bank Proteas in the fourth One-Day International (ODI) at Seddon Park in Hamilton on Wednesday.

The Black Caps’ opener was in majestic form as he plundered 11 sixes and 15 fours in his unbeaten 180 from 138 balls to help the hosts chase down their 280 target with a full five overs to spare.

Ross Taylor also played an important role for the home side with his more restrained 66 (97 balls, 7 fours, 1 six), and along with Guptill, put on 180 together for the third wicket, as New Zealand squared the series at 2-2. It means their clash at Eden Park in Auckland on Saturday will decide the five-match contest.

De Villiers had won the toss and batted first at the start with a powerful final 10 overs key to propelling them to 279/8.

There were 106 runs scored in that period, but before that there was a rare duck for Quinton de Kock, while Hashim Amla (40) helped Du Plessis, who made 67 (97 balls, 4 fours), add 65 for the second wicket.

Another 62 followed between JP Duminy (25) and Du Plessis, which was tailed by both men falling in a difficult middle period when David Miller (1) and Dwaine Pretorius (10) also departed – the away side slipping from 128/2 to 158/6.

That left them in a huge hole, but De Villiers crunched 72 (59 balls, 4 fours, 3 sixes) and again marshalled the tail excellently to help post a competitive total.

He put on 58 with Chris Morris (28 from 27 balls) and 63 with Wayne Parnell (29 from 12 balls) for the seventh and eighth wickets respectively, handing the South Africans the advantage at half-way.

Despite Kagiso Rabada (1/41) getting Dean Brownlie (4) early and Imran Tahir (2/56) accounting for Kane Williamson (21), they were then dominated by Guptill, whose 12th ODI ton was also the fourth highest second-innings score in ODI history.

The result was bad news for South Africa in terms of the ICC ODI rankings, as they surrendered top spot to Australia.
 
soso_killer said:
you mean the quarters and semis went important or didn't matter where Dhoni was anonymous?
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91 off 76. That's all that matters.

He grabbed the game by the balls when the game was still in the balance and promoted himself up the order.

What has AB done in similar situations?
 
Aman said:
Dhoni is one of the best ever finishers.

What is AB? Neither a great top order batsmen and neither a great finisher.

He can't handle pressure nor is he an ATG batsmen who holds the teams innings together, he's a batsmen who thrives with platforms but is incapable of finishing despite his talent.
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Won the last two games under pressure only.LOL..!!! Today's knock was under pressure too. You are overrating few things unnecessarily.

One knock over 3 WCs and CTs don't change much.

Dhoni failed back in WC 2007 when they needed him to score vs SL to make it to super 8. He couldn't do much in WC semis 2015 apart from scoring soft runs.

Dhoni's record in WC + CT :

Avgs 29 vs top 8 teams.. That is itself poor. With this performance Gambhir can also make strong claims as he won two finals.
 
Ab Fan said:
Won the last two games under pressure only.LOL..!!! Today's knock was under pressure too. You are overrating few things unnecessarily.

One knock over 3 WCs and CTs don't change much.

Dhoni failed back in WC 2007 when they needed him to score vs SL to make it to super 8. He couldn't do much in WC semis 2015 apart from scoring soft runs.

Dhoni's record in WC + CT :

Avgs 29 vs top 8 teams.. That is itself poor. With this performance Gambhir can also make strong claims as he won two finals.
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A performance in the WC Final more than makes up for it.

Then you have to consider that he is one of the best finishers the game has ever seen, easily in the top 2.

What exactly is AB's role that puts him on the same levels as the games greats? He's certainly not a better finisher than Dhoni or Kohli, nor is he a better accumulator than Kohli.

He's in between.

A middle order batsmen who struggles to finish, someone who requires all the hardwork to be done for him.
 
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It may be harsh and PPers may be offended, but I see AB as a great slogger and nurdler who can offer up a chance at any moment.

He's not in Kohli's league IMHO, whenever Kohli comes out to bat, it feels like he's the one obstacle standing between victory and defeat.
 
Aman said:
There is no one I fear more than Kohli in LOI's. He's a match winner, never feel that AB can take the game away like Kohli can. Totally on another level to AB IMO.
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AB won the last match on his own batting on a complete different pitch like Guppy today. Was there in the end in the first ODI too. And countless others in NZ and various countries?
How many matches has Kohli won with the willow in NZ?

One of my biggest fears is death by a Shark underwater. However I'm more likely to be involved in a fatal incident driving my car, not once does that fear register to me every time I start the engine.
You see our fears are misconstrued, completely baseless and devoid of logic.
 
Seems there is no point of discussion here. People here will bring absurd reasons to make their claim worthy even though it is far from it. Its first time you hear that single individual performance over a number of ICC tournaments makes up for everything else.

I am out of it.
 
soso_killer said:
AB won the last match on his own batting on a complete different pitch like Guppy today. Was there in the end in the first ODI too. And countless others in NZ and various countries?
How many matches has Kohli won with the willow in NZ?

One of my biggest fears is death by a Shark underwater. However I'm more likely to be involved in a fatal incident driving my car, not once does that fear register to me every time I start the engine.
You see our fears are misconstrued, completely baseless and devoid of logic.
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Kohli's century in Napier was better than anything I've seen from AB against us. I just don't get 'it' from AB. Lacking in the finishing department with plenty ahead of him today and not a great top order batsmen. Where exactly does he compare to the games great when there is no role for him?

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667641.html
 
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Aman said:
A performance in the WC Final more than makes up for it.

Then you have to consider that he is one of the best finishers the game has ever seen, easily in the top 2.

What exactly is AB's role that puts him on the same levels as the games greats? He's certainly not a better finisher than Dhoni or Kohli, nor is he a better accumulator than Kohli.

He's in between.

A middle order batsmen who struggles to finish, someone who requires all the hardwork to be done for him.
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a match winner who can win matches anywhere and devour bowling attacks. I'm not even his fan.
 
Aman said:
91 off 76. That's all that matters.

He grabbed the game by the balls when the game was still in the balance and promoted himself up the order.

What has AB done in similar situations?
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AB has never played a final, he's never been in a situation where he's been carried by his mates in two WC, he does the carrying.
 
soso_killer said:
AB has never played a final, he's never been in a situation where he's been carried by his mates in two WC, he does the carrying.
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I was referring to the Champions Trophy match against England where AB dropped his and sent in an AR ahead of him.
 
Kohli fans as usual bringing their rubbish feeling and emotions and putting things up.

AB has runs vs likes of McGrath and Starc.

We all know how Kohli fared vs Starc in WC15 semis.
 
Ab Fan said:
Kohli fans as usual bringing their rubbish feeling and emotions and putting things up.

AB has runs vs likes of McGrath and Starc.

We all know how Kohli fared vs Starc in WC15 semis.
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I don't even like Kohli :))

Still can't deny his talent, AB on the other hand is an overrated PP darling.
 
soso_killer said:
AB has never played a final, he's never been in a situation where he's been carried by his mates in two WC, he does the carrying.
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Carries them out of the group stages and super 8's? Really? :))
 
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Ab Fan said:
Seems there is no point of discussion here. People here will bring absurd reasons to make their claim worthy even though it is far from it. Its first time you hear that single individual performance over a number of ICC tournaments makes up for everything else.

I am out of it.
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LOL, imagine. JP performed twice in 8 years. One in 2008 series win in Australia then in 2016 .
He must be a great, and what do the likes of Dravid and Tendulkar deserve to be mentioned alongside greats like JP etc who won a Test series in Australia?
 
Aman said:
Kohli's century in Napier was better than anything I've seen from AB against us. I just don't get 'it' from AB. Lacking in the finishing department with plenty ahead of him today and not a great top order batsmen. Where exactly does he compare to the games great when there is no role for him?

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667641.html
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This is desperate, I ask you to name matches Kohli won in NZ and you provide me with a link of a match NZ won by a ****er? Seriously?
 
Aman said:
Coming from the mark with the AB name :))
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There lies the problem when people judge anyone by the name.

I have seen posters like [MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION] disliking and putting hatred comments towards AB.Surely, you gotta believe him now when a no fan is praising here- height of biasedness.
 
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soso_killer said:
This is desperate, I ask you to name matches Kohli won in NZ and you provide me with a link of a match NZ won by a ****er? Seriously?
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That match was essentially Kohli vs us with no one else contributing for India. That was a true masterclass and proved he was the real deal.
 
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As for games won in NZ, Kohli has toured NZ once with India losing 4 and 1 tied.

Scores were 123, 78, 6, 2 and 82 in 5 games.
 
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Scores ifrom our last series in India...

85*, 9, 154*, 45 and 65.

There's a reason why I rate him very highly.
 
Aman said:
That match was essentially Kohli vs us with no one else contributing for India. That was a true masterclass and proved he was the real deal.
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http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/520600.html

Give it up mate, i could list countless matches AB has won. There's no argument here. I asked you to do a simple task to prove Kohli was a better match winner and you failed miserably.

Take a look at what AB does when his team collapses in that link. Doesn't fit your narrative does it? ;-)
 
soso_killer said:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/520600.html

Give it up mate, i could list countless matches AB has won. There's no argument here. I asked you to do a simple task to prove Kohli was a better match winner and you failed miserably.

Take a look at what AB does when his team collapses in that link. Doesn't fit your narrative does it? ;-)
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250 at the Cake Tin against Mills, Southee, Nicolls, Ellis, Franklin and Bracewell, really? :))

That's the best you have? That's a cake walk.

Are we going to reach that much..
 
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Aman said:
As for games won in NZ, Kohli has toured NZ once with India losing 4 and 1 tied.

Scores were 123, 78, 6, 2 and 82 in 5 games.
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Wasn't the tie where Jadeja showed more spine than Kohli and actually performed away from home to yield a result?
Kohli has zero impact outside India. Zero
 
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