ODI series in England: Comparing Pakistan's with India's

[barah_admi]

India failed to cross 300 in all their attempts last year, playing on the same pitches and venues as Pakistan have. Their batsmen also did not score like Pakistan, with Kohli averaging 60 odd with a sr of 90, while Imam averages over 100 with a sr just 1.03 lower.

So why is the batting being hung out to dry? Why are their calls to drop or even end the careers of Babar and Imam? They have outperformed their more experienced counterparts and done so repeatedly.

Like I often say, please watch the sport itself and not make yourself sound stupid.

 

[Chokli]

Bowling is the difference.

Shaheen and Hasnain are too raw and only one of them should have been selected.

Junaid was past it in 2017 and could offer more than Wahab. It's 2019 and he's gotten worse, it's criminal he got in the squad ahead of Usman Shinwari who performed much better versus Australia than Junaid did.

Hasan Ali just hasn't been good enough and don't give me the B.S of he's out of form. He was bowling well in the PSL which was only a few months ago and now in International cricket he's been atrocious.

The less said about Faheem Ashraf the better.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Kuldeep is the reason. Eng couldn't pick him for the first 2 odis. He even got 6/25 off his 10 overs in the first odi.

 

[barah_admi]

Kuldeep is the reason. Eng couldn't pick him for the first 2 odis. He even got 6/25 off his 10 overs in the first odi.

Kuldeep is the reason India could not make more than 300 on any occasion? Had no idea he was playing for England

 

[Mamoon]

Pakistan have batted very well, but we also need to take into account that England have been at their worst with the ball. They do not have a world class attack, but it is nowhere near as bad as they have been in this series. Last year, they won 7 out of 8 ODIs against India and Australia and dismissed them for relatively cheap scores.

The biggest difference so far has been the abject form of Adil Rashid. He is their main wicket-taker in the middle-overs, and they look like a different attack when he is bowling well.

If England bowl like this to India or any other top team, they will end up conceding 400.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Kuldeep is the reason India could not make more than 300 on any occasion? Had no idea he was playing for England

Kuldeep is the reason people don't criticise India's batting. They won the first game. Eng scores 320 in the second match.we're making 340+ and losing.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Pakistan have batted very well, but we also need to take into account that England have been at their worst with the ball. They do not have a world class attack, but it is nowhere near as bad as they have been in this series. Last year, they won 7 out of 8 ODIs against India and Australia and dismissed them for relatively cheap scores.

The biggest difference so far has been the abject form of Adil Rashid. He is their main wicket-taker in the middle-overs, and they look like a different attack when he is bowling well.

If England bowl like this to India or any other top team, they will end up conceding 400.

Would you call this bad form or just pak's ability to play spinners?
Pak handled imran Tahir pretty well in Sa too.

 

[Mamoon]

Would you call this bad form or just pak's ability to play spinners?
Pak handled imran Tahir pretty well in Sa too.

He has bowled a lot of pies. Pakistan's ability to play spin is massively overrated.

 

[emranabbas]

ok we are better than india.. happy?

 

[jnaveen1980]

India batted first only once. Although India's attack was without Bumrah , it was still their strength. So they never focused on scoring 350. Especially after mopping floor with them in the first match. No team should focus on scoring 350 regardless of the pitch. sometimes you could go hard and end up scoring less than the par score.

 

[szundercover]

Kuldeep is the reason. Eng couldn't pick him for the first 2 odis. He even got 6/25 off his 10 overs in the first odi.

Kuldeep will be found out by most teams in this world cup and mark my words he will go for a lot of runs this tournament.

 

[barah_admi]

Kuldeep is the reason people don't criticise India's batting. They won the first game. Eng scores 320 in the second match.we're making 340+ and losing.

Your point makes no sense. The Indian batsmen not making 300 even once, on flat pitches, on these exact pitches and locations, has nothing to do with Kuldeep. India's batting is much vaunted, and rightfully so...yet they couldn't chase 320...

 

[szundercover]

He has bowled a lot of pies. Pakistan's ability to play spin is massively overrated.

Only hafeez and malik play spin well the current generation with likes of babar,haris and imam are not so fluent against spin as malik and hafeez but although fakhar has improved his game against spin ,it will be interesting how he fares against kuldeep,chahal,zampa and rashid khan.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Kuldeep will be found out by most teams in this world cup and mark my words he will go for a lot of runs this tournament.

He is not a mystery bowler to be found out. He is a chinaman bowler. He and Chahal will strangle the opposition in the middle overs. Unlike T20 teams will be circumspect against them in the middle overs.

 

[Mamoon]

Only hafeez and malik play spin well the current generation with likes of babar,haris and imam are not so fluent against spin as malik and hafeez but although fakhar has improved his game against spin ,it will be interesting how he fares against kuldeep,chahal,zampa and rashid khan.

Pakistan were all over the place in the Asia Cup against quality spin bowling. If it wasn't for Malik, we would have lost to Afghanistan as well.

 

[szundercover]

He is not a mystery bowler to be found out. He is a chinaman bowler. He and Chahal will strangle the opposition in the middle overs. Unlike T20 teams will be circumspect against them in the middle overs.

I have noticed that both of the spinners form has declined and kuldeep has gone for a lot of runs this ipl this maybe because players are now reading them well.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Your point makes no sense. The Indian batsmen not making 300 even once, on flat pitches, on these exact pitches and locations, has nothing to do with Kuldeep. India's batting is much vaunted, and rightfully so...yet they couldn't chase 320...

Don't think you understand what i meant. I mean that India may have not scored 350+ but their bowlers were not letting eng score 350+ hence they were as a team not getting as much criticism

 

[jnaveen1980]

Your point makes no sense. The Indian batsmen not making 300 even once, on flat pitches, on these exact pitches and locations, has nothing to do with Kuldeep. India's batting is much vaunted, and rightfully so...yet they couldn't chase 320...

After the first match assault, Pakistan convinced themselves they will stand no chance without raking up 350 to 400 runs. Pitches were conducive. Bowling was utter tripe. Regarding why they didn't chase, India depends on top 3 to chase big totals. 70% of the runs have to come from them. When they don't do they are pretty much out of it. Last year it was true even more with guys like Raina, Dhoni (who got booed for blocking every single ball without showing any intent). Dhoni is a guy fit to chase totals like 270 ,280 not 350. Having said that if India scores 350, i back India to defend that in English conditions.

 

[Ronaldo7]

He is not a mystery bowler to be found out. He is a chinaman bowler. He and Chahal will strangle the opposition in the middle overs. Unlike T20 teams will be circumspect against them in the middle overs.

Eng were picking Kuldeep well after that 1st odi in 2018. There is no reason to say why teams of the wc won't pick him well.

 

[szundercover]

Pakistan were all over the place in the Asia Cup against quality spin bowling. If it wasn't for Malik, we would have lost to Afghanistan as well.

Thats what I am saying only malik and hadeez knows the art of playing spin as fluent I am not so convinced about the likes of babar,haris and imam playing spin well and by the way asia cup pitches were alot different these england batting friendly pitches so maybe there will be a change in fortunes of batting for us in this world cup

 

[jnaveen1980]

I have noticed that both of the spinners form has declined and kuldeep has gone for a lot of runs this ipl this maybe because players are now reading them well.

No. In T20 bowlers bowl a defensive line. Batsmen can take chances with less chances of getting out. In one dayers he will flight a lot more. His speed will be around 74 kph not 80 plus like he did in the IPL.

 

[Bonafide Hustler]

Pakistan needs to find a good leg spinner quick, they are invaluable on flat decks and big tournaments. Sadly Shadab bowls too quick most of the time to be effective. India has a genuine leg spinner that can take wickets in any situation.

 

[szundercover]

After the first match assault, Pakistan convinced themselves they will stand no chance without raking up 350 to 400 runs. Pitches were conducive. Bowling was utter tripe. Regarding why they didn't chase, India depends on top 3 to chase big totals. 70% of the runs have to come from them. When they don't do they are pretty much out of it. Last year it was true even more with guys like Raina, Dhoni (who got booed for blocking every single ball without showing any intent). Dhoni is a guy fit to chase totals like 270 ,280 not 350. Having said that if India scores 350, i back India to defend that in English conditions.

You are right but I only see bumrah as the quality pacer with his pace and variations I am not so sure about bhuvi and shami they are similar like junaid and hassan but your spin department also gives you an edge in your bowling and I am not convinced that hardik pandya will be a consistent finisher he is exactly like asif ali where he will have 2 or 3 good inninings and the occasional failure here and then.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Eng were picking Kuldeep well after that 1st odi in 2018. There is no reason to say why teams of the wc won't pick him well.

They might. But he will come out with new ideas too. No matter what you find out, you make a couple of mistakes in world cup you will catch cold feet. It is one match. Not a series. This is why it is better to go into world cup as a bowling strong team rather than batting strong team. With batting one mistake you are out. With bowling you get hit for a six you can always come back with different ideas. Pakistan has won some tournaments with subpar batting team mainly because of their bowling.

 

[szundercover]

Pakistan needs to find a good leg spinner quick, they are invaluable on flat decks and big tournaments. Sadly Shadab bowls too quick most of the time to be effective. India has a genuine leg spinner that can take wickets in any situation.

Rashid khan also bowls quick and he is the number one bowler,there is no problem in bowling quick especially in these pitches where the batsman will look to gp after the slowe delevires look what happend to adil rashid in this series,what shadab needs to do is to vary his pace and speed in each over and thats what indian spinners do and it makes them so effective.

 

[The Viper]

Eng were picking Kuldeep well after that 1st odi in 2018. There is no reason to say why teams of the wc won't pick him well.

Kuldeep is a quality player. But Root dealt with him in the ODI series. I am sure he can be neutralised.

 

[szundercover]

They might. But he will come out with new ideas too. No matter what you find out, you make a couple of mistakes in world cup you will catch cold feet. It is one match. Not a series. This is why it is better to go into world cup as a bowling strong team rather than batting strong team. With batting one mistake you are out. With bowling you get hit for a six you can always come back with different ideas. Pakistan has won some tournaments with subpar batting team mainly because of their bowling.

I feel that rather than batting teams with the best bowling line up will determine the winner of the tournament as all teams have a very good batting lineups.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Kuldeep is a quality player. But Root dealt with him in the ODI series. I am sure he can be neutralised.

No doubt. Kuldeep's record states how good of a player he is.

 

[jnaveen1980]

You are right but I only see bumrah as the quality pacer with his pace and variations I am not so sure about bhuvi and shami they are similar like junaid and hassan but your spin department also gives you an edge in your bowling and I am not convinced that hardik pandya will be a consistent finisher he is exactly like asif ali where he will have 2 or 3 good inninings and the occasional failure here and then.

Shami you see now is significantly different better than even Bumrah in some aspects. The bouncers are sharp and accurate at your throat. Also Bhuvi is a better bowler than Junaid with his variations and accuracy. He would never bowl half way down the pitch like Junaid was doing. Also strategically as a unit they are better. But i doubt if Bhuvi will even get a game as Shami is clearly a out and out wicket taking bowler. He bowls absolute peaches out of nowhere. You can check his career record. 113 wickets 63 matches. As a comparison 49 innings 85 wickets Bumrah.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Shami you see now is significantly different better than even Bumrah in some aspects. The bouncers are sharp and accurate at your throat. Also Bhuvi is a better bowler than Junaid with his variations and accuracy. He would never bowl half way down the pitch like Junaid was doing. Also strategically as a unit they are better. But i doubt if Bhuvi will even get a game as Shami is clearly a out and out wicket taking bowler. He bowls absolute peaches out of nowhere. You can check his career record. 113 wickets 63 matches. As a comparison 49 innings 85 wickets Bumrah.

Don't you think Shami is massively underrated?
I didn't even know that he was such a good odi bowler until I saw the ind-nz odi series. Then I checked his odi stats and i was pretty surprised. No one really talks about him as an odi bowler.

 

[szundercover]

Don't you think Shami is massively underrated?
I didn't even know that he was such a good odi bowler until I saw the ind-nz odi series. Then I checked his odi stats and i was pretty surprised. No one really talks about him as an odi bowler.

I havent actually seen the india newzealand series but I did watch him in the tests against australlia and his pace has increased quite dramatically .

 

[jnaveen1980]

Don't you think Shami is massively underrated?
I didn't even know that he was such a good odi bowler until I saw the ind-nz odi series. Then I checked his odi stats and i was pretty surprised. No one really talks about him as an odi bowler.

He went completely missing from the Indian side for various reasons including some personal family reasons. Also he had a lot of injury issues. Then he resorted to some sort of "dEsi trainng" i am not sure what the heck that means Sure it works for him. He is relatively injury free. Yes he is massively under-rated. In Australia he just brutalized Australians with bouncers, short balls


https://www.wahcricket.com/en/news/...reason-behind-lean-mean-mohammed-shami-127623

You could see how ball just rears off of the surface for Shami.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6S_4EgW3es

 

[Hyperion66]

So Pak batting is better than India's ? Is that what you are implying OP?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I agree with OP. Pakistan's batting has bossed England in a way India could not.

 

[QalandarFan]

So Pak batting is better than India's ? Is that what you are implying OP?

No he's simply saying the blame for the losses should not be put on the batsman, as if we look India didn't even score this many runs yet they still won a game. Showing that it is the bowling and fielding that is letting Pakistan down not the batting.

 

[jnaveen1980]

No he's simply saying the blame for the losses should not be put on the batsman, as if we look India didn't even score this many runs yet they still won a game. Showing that it is the bowling and fielding that is letting Pakistan down not the batting.

Actually both teams bowled crap. Apart from Archer everybody was going over 6.5 if i am right. Most of them over 7. Basically it was a contest between which bowling unit sucked less. Pakistan's problem was compounded by abysmal fielding. Who knows a bit of focus in the fielding could have got them a win..
Teams should play to their strengths. IN chess people sometimes blindly copies the move of opponents and end up losing badly in the end. Bit like that just choose what is the right move rather than just copying what the opponent does. If England believes setting 350 plus is the best way to win not all teams should try to do the same. For some other teams restricting opposition to 250 is their best option.

 

[Mean&Green]

Pakistan have batted very well, but we also need to take into account that England have been at their worst with the ball. They do not have a world class attack, but it is nowhere near as bad as they have been in this series. Last year, they won 7 out of 8 ODIs against India and Australia and dismissed them for relatively cheap scores.

The biggest difference so far has been the abject form of Adil Rashid. He is their main wicket-taker in the middle-overs, and they look like a different attack when he is bowling well.

If England bowl like this to India or any other top team, they will end up conceding 400.

Damn if mamoon is saying Pakistan is batting well they really must be .

 

[Mean&Green]

I agree with OP. Pakistan's batting has bossed England in a way India could not.

Lol seriously u must be joking these English bowlers are of the lowest quality Liam Plunkett how is this guy still around is beyond me i was like 8 years old the last time I saw him play and now I’m seeing him again he was trash back than is still trash and I’m awfully surprised that India didn’t wack these TRUNDLERS.

 

[PakPremi]

Lol seriously u must be joking these English bowlers are of the lowest quality Liam Plunkett how is this guy still around is beyond me i was like 8 years old the last time I saw him play and now I’m seeing him again he was trash back than is still trash and I’m awfully surprised that India didn’t wack these TRUNDLERS.

Archer, woakes , woods, Curran's, Rashid and moen are not trash. Pak always play Rashid and Moen well, but that does not make them trash. Woods and Archer are no trundlers.

 

[Yezir]

Pakistanis need to stop being so obessed with the current Indian team & Maybe pray that their selected 15 can even qualify to semis because with the quality of cricket they are currently playing it looks very hard. Pakistan lost 4 big series in past 12 months. 5-0 ( Australalia , New Zealand ) 3-2 Aganist South Africa , 4-0 probably aganist england . Even in Asia Cup India beat you guys twice & Even Bangladesh beat you comfortably. If Scoring 340 runs every single game still cnt win you games when the other team is missing two of their best batsman. it just shows you are playing ****** & Whoever made this thread needs to check the team that india played with & the team that beat australia in australia & new zealand in new zealand

 

[Mean&Green]

Archer, woakes , woods, Curran's, Rashid and moen are not trash. Pak always play Rashid and Moen well, but that does not make them trash. Woods and Archer are no trundlers.

Archer is over rated and wood has just recently come to the side he’s decent. Other than that this is the type of the team which can score 400 and also concede 400.

 

[PakPremi]

Archer is over rated and wood has just recently come to the side he’s decent. Other than that this is the type of the team which can score 400 and also concede 400.

Overated or not they are bowling many good bowls at a good speed and with good variation especially Archer. England are nailing their Yorkers at good line as well. Curran has also been impressive as well as Woakes, though they do not have luxury of excess pace.

 

[barah_admi]

Lol seriously u must be joking these English bowlers are of the lowest quality Liam Plunkett how is this guy still around is beyond me i was like 8 years old the last time I saw him play and now I’m seeing him again he was trash back than is still trash and I’m awfully surprised that India didn’t wack these TRUNDLERS.

Then you need to watch more cricket. Plunkett has been England's best ODI pace bowler for almost 5 years now.

 

[BreadPakoda]

In how many games did England cross 300?

 

[big_gamer007]

Pakistan batting is obviously better than Indian batting. Everyone who watches cricket knows that.
Indian batting is dependant on top 3 and since the emergence of fakhar, imam and Babar the gap between Indian top 3 and Pakistani top 3 has reduced (Indian top 3 being slightly ahead).
However the middle order and lower middle order Pakistan has got substantial lead over the Indian counterparts which makes their batting line up way better than Indian one.

Even bowling wise Pakistani bowling is far better than Indian bowling. I expect pakistan to win over India convincingly in world cup and any future tournaments.

 

[Ronaldo7]

In how many games did England cross 300?

1 out of 2 when they were batting first. They weren't set a target of 300+

 

[BreadPakoda]

1 out of 2 when they were batting first. They weren't set a target of 300+

So 50%.

 

[Benchwarmer]

Kuldeep will be found out by most teams in this world cup and mark my words he will go for a lot of runs this tournament.

However I think that he will easily become the highest wicket-taker of the tournament.Will be coming back to this comment after the league phase ends.

 

[jnaveen1980]

There is a misconception that the pitches India played were 350 pitches. They were not. Ball actually turned quiet a bit for Rashid and Ali. You could see from the dismissal of Kohli. None of the English batsmen could pick Kuldeep's turn. The pitches in this series are atrocious pitches. It offered nothing to the bowlers. Ireland would have racked up 350 easily here.

 

[IAJ]

I don’t Think the wickets where this flat. On the roads here there would have been a couple of double tons by the Indians (Rohit and one of Dhawan or Kohli). Just see of the first 6 overs and then start attacking.

 

[IAJ]

However I think that he will easily become the highest wicket-taker of the tournament.Will be coming back to this comment after the league phase ends.

I will also come back to this comment Godwilling.

 

[Mp812]

Your point makes no sense. The Indian batsmen not making 300 even once, on flat pitches, on these exact pitches and locations, has nothing to do with Kuldeep. India's batting is much vaunted, and rightfully so...yet they couldn't chase 320...

Yet India won 1 game and lost 2 out of 3 played. Pakistan would have surely won the first ODI game this series but rain spoilt it and in the end 4-0 happened