Pakistan has fallen far behind India as a cricketing nation

[Sidilicious]

You missed a point. When players play for money, they are mercenaries.

Players who play for their country are legends. Pakistan CT17 win as an example.

lol. Pakistani cricketers play for their country and others dont? What happens to the money the Pakistani cricketers get?

 

[Sidilicious]

Right, so what you are saying then is all ODI stats before 1975 are irrelevant.

Wow.

Yes, ODIs started in 1974!!!!

 

[R3verse Swing]

lol. Pakistani cricketers play for their country and others dont? What happens to the money the Pakistani cricketers get?

You made the point of how rich IPL is and the players.

Just pointing out that Pakistani players earn less then players you speak of and still handed a battering to the richest cricketing nation on Earth. Let this sink in.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Yes, ODIs started in 1974!!!!

Still before 1971!!

 

[Sidilicious]

You made the point of how rich IPL is and the players.

Just pointing out that Pakistani players earn less then players you speak of and still handed a battering to the richest cricketing nation on Earth. Let this sink in.

please read my post. I am talking about the cricket structure and the money IPL brings to non IPL playing cricketers.

 

[R3verse Swing]

please read my post. I am talking about the cricket structure and the money IPL brings to non IPL playing cricketers.

I did read your post. You invoked money in your response.

Money is not everything in sport.

 

[IndianFan2018]

I can't help but sometimes feel that due to pakistan team ranks below top team, their fans thinking is also like a minnow team. They hung up on 1 win, they still hung up on that 2012 tour win. Lol. After that tour india pakistan meet many times and india beat pakistan in many matches. But pakistani brags only one asia cup match, one ct win, 2012 tourBut no indian brag one match many times, pakistani still brag about Afridi 2 sixes, junaids wickets against kohli. This is embarrassing. This is like bd brags about whitewashing you in 2015 still, and forget all previous beatings of yours to them( sorry for my bad English)

Sensible post. Minnow mentality catching to Pak, never thought this will happen to Pak !

 

[dhonixi]

Lmao. One pak poster opened a thread, and all insecure pak fans get riled up. We knew your team won CT but your team is still minnow now. Let that sink in. Competing with sl and Zimbabwe. And india has one more ct and many more Asia cup than you. You can have kitply, cool n cool cups etc

 

[R3verse Swing]

So folks, World Cups only matter.

All non World Cup ODI stats do not matter.

I will keep this in mind the next time Indian supporters cite ODI stats!

 

[R3verse Swing]

Lmao. One pak poster opened a thread, and all insecure pak fans get riled up. We knew your team won CT but your team is still minnow now. Let that sink in. Competing with sl and Zimbabwe. And india has one more ct and many more Asia cup than you. You can have kitply, cool n cool cups etc

The irony is strong with this one.

I got news for you. India does not have 1 more CT win. India did NOT beat SL in the CT final in 2002.

 

[KingKhanWC]

India has been the better team due tot he following
better H2H in the last 15 years in ODIs
better H2H in the last 15 years in Tests
better H2H in the last 15 years in T20Is
1 extra WC

I assume you have used 15 years for this reason. How many of your players from 15 years ago or Paks' players still play today? How about the last 5 years? Oh I forgot this will be difficult as you declined to play us.

 

[TeamPak95]

Well we can't just pick and choose what's convenient. Why do you want to throw out SL and World XI but only consider NZ tour? That's my point.

We've always been inconsistent. My point is we haven't fallen behind India as we beat them convincingly last time. Don't let the Indians convince you otherwise.

Like I mentioned in the last post, if Pak are gonna be top dogs (at least in LOI) then at the very least they need to be challenging the big teams. Not to sound like the SL and World XI series weren't important, but overall beating them doesn't showcase our teams mettle to 100% (especially in the SL ODI series where SL were pretty aweful). We had a chance to do that vs NZ, but that failed pretty miserably (came back well in the t20s, but right now is the time for WC prep).

For the past, at least, 5 years when looking at both Indian and Pakistani cricket, India have been winning games consistently, Pak have not. Yes we won the CT, but in recent years India have gone deep more than Pak in tournaments and have competed much better. In today's modern cricket, India have solid players like Rohit, Dhawan, and Kohli and we're still playing Azhar, Malik, and Hafeez. You said it yourself, we've always been inconsistent so how are India not ahead of Pakistan? As big as Pakistan beating India in the CT the way they did was, that doesn't seal the deal in regards to who is the better cricket team overall.

 

[Sidilicious]

I assume you have used 15 years for this reason. How many of your players from 15 years ago or Paks' players still play today? How about the last 5 years? Oh I forgot this will be difficult as you declined to play us.

and I stated that Pakistan team was better than the Indian team from mid 80s onwards. Its not about a generation, but when the tied turned.

Pakistan were the better team from 85-03. Since then, India has been the better team in this period. I am not sure why do you find this is so difficult to understand?

 

[R3verse Swing]

How can one reason with someone who re-writes the history of ODis? Seriously? It's embarrassing to say the least.

Now look, there is no denying that Indian team of today has come a long way from the past, yet granting the notion that India is a top team, why not close the head-to-head gap with Pakistan? Strike while the iron is hot and all that?

 

[KingKhanWC]

and I stated that Pakistan team was better than the Indian team from mid 80s onwards. Its not about a generation, but when the tied turned.

Pakistan were the better team from 85-03. Since then, India has been the better team in this period. I am not sure why do you find this is so difficult to understand?

We haven't played a test series in 10 years! We've only played ONE Odi series in the last 10 years which we won in your back yard. Deluded much?

 

[R3verse Swing]

and I stated that Pakistan team was better than the Indian team from mid 80s onwards. Its not about a generation, but when the tied turned.

Pakistan were the better team from 85-03. Since then, India has been the better team in this period. I am not sure why do you find this is so difficult to understand?

Mid 80s? Try 50s.

 

[TikkiTaka]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/283878.html
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283877.html

Those are all-time win-loss records for ODI's and Tests. Pakistan are superior to India in both. That's hard numbers to display why we have been a better team than India. We also have superior head-to-heads.

What can be accepted is the incredible improvement of Indian cricket since 2000. They have pushed up their win percentage almost 8-10%!

 

[htariq25]

Cut the wrist slitting!

 

[R3verse Swing]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/283878.html
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283877.html

Those are all-time win-loss records for ODI's and Tests. Pakistan are superior to India in both. That's hard numbers to display why we have been a better team than India. We also have superior head-to-heads.

What can be accepted is the incredible improvement of Indian cricket since 2000. They have pushed up their win percentage almost 8-10%!

But not verses Pakistan!

 

[TikkiTaka]

But not verses Pakistan!

Well exactly! They should play us now if they want to

I've got to admit it's been fantastic how we've not played much cricket against India when they've had relatively stronger teams. The 7 year gap between 1970~77 was perfect as India actually had a decent team that won away in WI and England the same year. On the other hand we gave them epic phainties in UAE during the 90's when they were crap and we were incredible.

 

[Usman Chadda]

O mere bhole bhai.. If one Wins Every Single Time, Wouldn't that make it ultra boring.

Its a very good thing Pakistan won in CT finals. Would really spice up the next encounter WC in England.

Well the way Pakistan beat the living daylights out of India in that game, boring is the last word fans would use before the next encounter. I mean it's nice to brush it under the carpet as a bad day, but such a merciless thrashing in the final of an important ICC tournament will wake up any Indian fan.

This new generation of Pakistani cricketers are much better and will only improve here on. Let this team play for a year or so and then judge. It's an unfair comparison at this stage.

India has established players in their team, with a strong domestic cricket set-up to support them. Even then their newer players have been alright, but the way Sharma, Dhawan and Kohli carry this team is out of this world to be honest. Those three are India's batting line-up at the moment and they finally have a bowling attack which can support the scores they consistently put up.

 

[Lefthanded]

Rankings aren't the be-all and end all of sport. Belgium were ranked the #1 football team for a while. Doesn't mean squat.

The CT was a culmination of the best 8 teams in the World. More than the WC where you can bash minnows to qualify for the knockouts. It's not just an abberation or flash in the pan or fluke like Indian fans like to claim.

Belgium? In football?

Well, I can't argue with an irrelevant comparison from an entirely different sport. And I know you're right because in gulli danda championship final in Khangarh Peethu bhai beat Jaydi bhai but in the rankings Imran Shah was #1.

Can you believe that?

Obviously, winning consistently over years is inferior to three games on a trot with lots of luck.

And CT was 7 teams. Australia got a single game because of rain.

I accept that to many Pakistanis CT is a beacon of hope, a long-awaited reward etc etc.

It's harder to accept how basic maths is irrelevant. One team wins an insane amount of matches, the other team loses an insane amount of matches and recently got blanked 5-0.

But hey, Pakistan #1, India #6, Babar Azam #1, Kohli #6, Sarfraz #1 Eoin Morgan #6.

 

[Sidilicious]

We haven't played a test series in 10 years! We've only played ONE Odi series in the last 10 years which we won in your back yard. Deluded much?

And what about the other global ICC tournaments where we have consistently outperformed Pakistan on H2H and overall performance.

PS - The timeline I am using is 15 years, not 10 years. Most level head people accept that India has been a better team than Pakistan in this period.

 

[KingKhanWC]

And what about the other global ICC tournaments where we have consistently outperformed Pakistan on H2H and overall performance.

PS - The timeline I am using is 15 years, not 10 years. Most level head people accept that India has been a better team than Pakistan in this period.

You will use a timeline which suits your view and even then it doenst show India as a much better side, if anything it's pretty even. If you use 10 years Pakistan has outpeformed India in bilateral fixtures. It's not our fault you wont come out play. In any other sport a nation which refuses to play in fixtures loses not wins.

Pakistan wins at home, so does India but your away record in test is pathetic, much worse. The previous ODI series against us, you lost. I can't see any strong argument to say India is the better team and has been recently.

 

[CanadianG00se]

OP is overrating this Indian team. We do have some flaws both in ODIs and TEST teams.

Dhoni, Jadhav, and Rahane do not merit selection and must go.


KL Rahul (WK)
Pandey
Pant/Sarfraz Khan

We really need a lower order hitter who could come in and smack a few. Teams like England and Australia (full strength) will exposed India’s lower middle order.

However, I do agree with OP that India in regards to domestic circuit, grassroot cricket, junior level tours (A and U19) etc. is much ahead of Pakistan mostly due to financial standing, as well as accountability in BCCI.

Overall, current Pakistan team with right team selection is on par if not better than Team India (Odis). In test arena, Pakistan are indeed much behind than team India, mostly due to them being in transition. Both teams have flaws and seniority culture that is holding them back. Only in Sub continent where seniors are immune to merit based selection.

 

[Sidilicious]

You will use a timeline which suits your view and even then it doenst show India as a much better side, if anything it's pretty even. If you use 10 years Pakistan has outpeformed India in bilateral fixtures. It's not our fault you wont come out play. In any other sport a nation which refuses to play in fixtures loses not wins.

Pakistan wins at home, so does India but your away record in test is pathetic, much worse. The previous ODI series against us, you lost. I can't see any strong argument to say India is the better team and has been recently.

By the same logic, you will agree that Bangladesh is a much better team than Pakistan?

 

[CanadianG00se]

You will use a timeline which suits your view and even then it doenst show India as a much better side, if anything it's pretty even. If you use 10 years Pakistan has outpeformed India in bilateral fixtures. It's not our fault you wont come out play. In any other sport a nation which refuses to play in fixtures loses not wins.

Pakistan wins at home, so does India but your away record in test is pathetic, much worse. The previous ODI series against us, you lost. I can't see any strong argument to say India is the better team and has been recently.

Pakistan’s away plus home record is pathetic too. Its not Pakistan are winning series away from home (test).
Both teams are pretty bad away from home, Pakistan are actually not so great at home compared to India. There is absolute no comparison as to which team in test is better. In Odis both teams in my view are on par.

 

[asfandyar]

Pakistanis are often seen defending their system by comparing populations and/or revenues of both the boards. Even if we consider the total gray matter of Indian cricket and divide it by India's population, we will arrive at a 10 times bigger number compared to that of Pakistan (with a far smaller population). India have snapped out of a dependence on miracles to win trophies and have added a method to their game. So much so, even their current u19 side can give Pakistan's senior side a run for their money. We are unfortunately stuck with a haphazard system that almost always overachieves in tournaments, but shows its true colors during bilateral series.

 

[Syed1]

Neither India is as good as you make them out to be, nor Pakistan is as bad as you are trying to prove.


All teams go through cycles, it happens in every sport with every country. You happen to produce a bunch of excellent players at the same time that power your team to achieve more than historical average. When this bunch retires then the people following them may or may not be able to fill their shoes. Happened to Spain in football, 5-7 years ago they looked absolutely unbeatable and were winning everything under the sun, look at them now. Look at Australia for the longest time they were invincible. Playing Australia meant defeat was the most likely outcome. Now look at them, they are just one spot above us in the rankings and just lost 4-1 at home. Has the Aussies domestic structure all of a sudden evaporated? Have their youth teams all of a sudden stopped producing? No... They are just going through the bottom end of their cycle and should rebound soon enough. Pakistan's golden generation was arguably from 95-2003 and we really should have won more in that era but other factors were in play. Hopefully our fortunes take an upward swing soon enough, I have high hopes from cricketers like Fakhar, Shadab, Hasan and Fahim.

 

[drrashmin]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/283878.html
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283877.html

Those are all-time win-loss records for ODI's and Tests. Pakistan are superior to India in both. That's hard numbers to display why we have been a better team than India. We also have superior head-to-heads.

What can be accepted is the incredible improvement of Indian cricket since 2000. They have pushed up their win percentage almost 8-10%!

Tikki bhai, thanks for entertaining us with your arguments!!!

 

[babajee]

Neither India is as good as you make them out to be, nor Pakistan is as bad as you are trying to prove.


All teams go through cycles, it happens in every sport with every country. You happen to produce a bunch of excellent players at the same time that power your team to achieve more than historical average. When this bunch retires then the people following them may or may not be able to fill their shoes. Happened to Spain in football, 5-7 years ago they looked absolutely unbeatable and were winning everything under the sun, look at them now. Look at Australia for the longest time they were invincible. Playing Australia meant defeat was the most likely outcome. Now look at them, they are just one spot above us in the rankings and just lost 4-1 at home. Has the Aussies domestic structure all of a sudden evaporated? Have their youth teams all of a sudden stopped producing? No... They are just going through the bottom end of their cycle and should rebound soon enough. Pakistan's golden generation was arguably from 95-2003 and we really should have won more in that era but other factors were in play. Hopefully our fortunes take an upward swing soon enough, I have high hopes from cricketers like Fakhar, Shadab, Hasan and Fahim.

POTW. These 4 are legends in the making.

 

[Savak]

Pakistan is obviously not on the same level playing field anymore vis a vis. But we are not as bad either, for a nation suffering an abscence of international cricket in Pakistan, no big financial injections thanks to BCCI's deliberate refusal to play Pakistan in a Pakistani home series and exile from the IPL, Pakistan has still done pretty well in these circumstances. We just have to accept the fact that India is too far ahead in every department right now and will beat the Pakistani team 7-8 times out of 10 but Pakistan too will pull off the upset here and there.

The PSL is the step in the right direction and is Pakistan's best chance of playing the right players, right modern brand of T-20 and ODI cricket. That being said there is no excuse for Pakistani players returning to duty unfit just like Mickey Arthur has mentioned recently as a big problem, a coach can point the players in the right direction but cannot baby sit them 24/7.

 

[sjahmed23]

I mean Pak hasn't played a game in its home country in a decade and the biggest country in cricket who has all the other countries revolving around it refuses to play Pak over political reasons. Inspite of all of this Pak has played out of its skin to win tournaments and become world ranked #1 test side under Misbah. I think if PSL continues to be successful then Pakistan will get much needed capital to improve facilities and grounds for franchise players. This will trickle down to improve overall grassroot/int cricket much like it has for India with IPL.

Just need awaam to stay positive and PSL to remain competitive and attracting crowds.

 

[Savak]

People complaining about Pakistan, lol look at Sri Lanka right now. Bangladesh and Afghanistan appear to have better batting talent than Pakistan right now

 

[Deewana Mastana]

Is it even a surprise?

 

[austerlitz]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/283878.html
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283877.html

Those are all-time win-loss records for ODI's and Tests. Pakistan are superior to India in both. That's hard numbers to display why we have been a better team than India. We also have superior head-to-heads.

What can be accepted is the incredible improvement of Indian cricket since 2000. They have pushed up their win percentage almost 8-10%!

Huge percentage of matches played in era of India's dark age,and pak's golden age.1980s-2000.Most of them were Jamodi's anyway in sharjah.
We have 2 world cups.You have 1.
We have 2 CT and twice runners up to Pak 1.Even WI has won CT.We also won 2 world championship series(predecessor of CT in 1985 and 1994.In 85 beating pak in final in australia)
We are ranked 1 in test and 2 soon to be 1 in ODI.

Oh and ....11-0.

P.S - rest of the posters ignore above .This is a bait post to troll the troll.

 

[Itachi]

Mamoon was right.

CT final became the new '92 world cup of Pakistan and whilst this wasn't anything harmful, people are getting nostalgic to the core that they are getting away from reality.

That fits perfectly.

Some of you live in so much in past that, that is somewhat concerning. Because it does prevent you from analyzing the current issue amidst always cherishing the beauty of the past.

Slowly, like Mamoon, i have started to believe that CT was a fluke for Pakistan.

 

[wasim-fan]

It is true. But this has nothing to d with this series. Systematically it happened over the years. You can just see the psyche of both teams or their body language.

But, tbh, Pakistan team has done very well under the circumstance.

 

[Oxfordchamp]

By the same logic, you will agree that Bangladesh is a much better team than Pakistan?

Lol..cracked me up..

 

[Itachi]

Neither India is as good as you make them out to be, nor Pakistan is as bad as you are trying to prove.


All teams go through cycles, it happens in every sport with every country. You happen to produce a bunch of excellent players at the same time that power your team to achieve more than historical average. When this bunch retires then the people following them may or may not be able to fill their shoes. Happened to Spain in football, 5-7 years ago they looked absolutely unbeatable and were winning everything under the sun, look at them now. Look at Australia for the longest time they were invincible. Playing Australia meant defeat was the most likely outcome. Now look at them, they are just one spot above us in the rankings and just lost 4-1 at home. Has the Aussies domestic structure all of a sudden evaporated? Have their youth teams all of a sudden stopped producing? No... They are just going through the bottom end of their cycle and should rebound soon enough. Pakistan's golden generation was arguably from 95-2003 and we really should have won more in that era but other factors were in play. Hopefully our fortunes take an upward swing soon enough, I have high hopes from cricketers like Fakhar, Shadab, Hasan and Fahim.

If you consider that as product cycle, then Pakistan is taking too much time to come out with new product. The ups and downs is understandable. But if a company, after taking so much time, can't even come with a good product at what should be the end of the cycle, then it is a warning sign.

 

[Sane.Cricket.Fan]

Well the way Pakistan beat the living daylights out of India in that game, boring is the last word fans would use before the next encounter. I mean it's nice to brush it under the carpet as a bad day, but such a merciless thrashing in the final of an important ICC tournament will wake up any Indian fan.

This new generation of Pakistani cricketers are much better and will only improve here on. Let this team play for a year or so and then judge. It's an unfair comparison at this stage.

India has established players in their team, with a strong domestic cricket set-up to support them. Even then their newer players have been alright, but the way Sharma, Dhawan and Kohli carry this team is out of this world to be honest. Those three are India's batting line-up at the moment and they finally have a bowling attack which can support the scores they consistently put up.

The next WC encounter would sure be very interesting... MAUKA this time both for India and Pakistan

 

[The_Odd_One]

Kohli is 70% of Indian team.

Considering the population of India and huge amount of money going into Cricket, India is really not that far ahead of Pakistan in limited overs cricket.

There's a massive difference between this SA side and the NZ side in NZ. Not questioning India's performance but you can't really compare these two series.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Mamoon was right.

CT final became the new '92 world cup of Pakistan and whilst this wasn't anything harmful, people are getting nostalgic to the core that they are getting away from reality.

That fits perfectly.

Some of you live in so much in past that, that is somewhat concerning. Because it does prevent you from analyzing the current issue amidst always cherishing the beauty of the past.

Slowly, like Mamoon, i have started to believe that CT was a fluke for Pakistan.

CT trophy was last year and Pakistan has played just 2 series after that. There is nothing wrong if anyone mentions it when discussing their team's recent performances. I still see a lot of posters mentioning India drawing a test series in Australia more than a decade ago or winning the WC and CT in this decade.

 

[Itachi]

Kohli is 70% of Indian team.

Considering the population of India and huge amount of money going into Cricket, India is really not that far ahead of Pakistan in limited overs cricket.

There's a massive difference between this SA side and the NZ side in NZ. Not questioning India's performance but you can't really compare these two series.

It's not actually about the results but the infrastructure that is in hand.

BCCI is building a professional setup which goes to the roots.... And an ex PCB official is complaining about the limited resources getting wasted.

If it goes like this, the gap will go bigger and bigger.

Gone are the days when some kid from a village will shock the world and rule cricket.... Now it's about professionalism. As boring as it may sound which is also true to some sort, this is what you need for consistency.

India is also far behind yet, the approach is there.

 

[The_Odd_One]

It's not actually about the results but the infrastructure that is in hand.

BCCI is building a professional setup which goes to the roots.... And an ex PCB official is complaining about the limited resources getting wasted.

If it goes like this, the gap will go bigger and bigger.

Gone are the days when some kid from a village will shock the world and rule cricket.... Now it's about professionalism. As boring as it may sound which is also true to some sort, this is what you need for consistency.

India is also far behind yet, the approach is there.

I think none is questioning how far ahead India is in terms of current setup and long term planning. PCB is not doing even 10% of it yet India is still to win a test series in Australia and South Africa. They lost 3 global trophies in the last 2 years.

 

[Itachi]

I think none is questioning how far ahead India is in terms of current setup and long term planning. PCB is not doing even 10% of it yet India is still to win a test series in Australia and South Africa. They lost 3 global trophies in the last 2 years.

What india is doing now, Australia started that even a decade back. So Australia already had a head start than rest of the nations.... So it isn't surprising that Australia has a domination.

RSA.... even not playing for years, in 1992 they came with a bang! And maintained that strict standard. Why?

Both of these shows how crucial an initial investment is in order to reach goals years later.

The excuse that Pakistani give is, lack of home cricket. What RSA faced is complete lack of cricket, isolation from ICC for 21 years yet, they were as good as any other team even better.

It's not a race to lose less games.

It's a race to win games.

.... And that itself the difference between mentality of PCB and BCCI itself now.

 

[The_Odd_One]

What india is doing now, Australia started that even a decade back. So Australia already had a head start than rest of the nations.... So it isn't surprising that Australia has a domination.

RSA.... even not playing for years, in 1992 they came with a bang! And maintained that strict standard. Why?

Both of these shows how crucial an initial investment is in order to reach goals years later.

The excuse that Pakistani give is, lack of home cricket. What RSA faced is complete lack of cricket, isolation from ICC for 21 years yet, they were as good as any other team even better.

It's not a race to lose less games.

It's a race to win games.

.... And that itself the difference between mentality of PCB and BCCI itself now.

The current PCB setup is a huge improvement from the past. There was a time when a PCB chief would ban players left and right and accuse other teams for match-fixing.

 

[Tusker]

By the same logic, you will agree that Bangladesh is a much better team than Pakistan?

Whatta response. That should ensure silence for a while ... lol

 

[Itachi]

The current PCB setup is a huge improvement from the past. There was a time when a PCB chief would ban players left and right and accuse other teams for match-fixing.

That was a turbulent time. And all the fans (not only Pakistani) had a hard time. It shouldn't be considered "normal". Emotions were high and actions were taken which wouldn't have happened otherwise.

 

[kingusama92]

I don't think there's anything wrong in accepting this.

India is a very well-rounded team across all format and their weaknesses are minor in comparison to Pakistan's current squad.

BUT, Pakistan has shot itself in the foot and made the gap larger than it has to be. It seems silly but yes, there is a lot of "talent" in Pakistan but it's completely unrefined. The few guys who do come through are completely reliant on their natural abilities. The domestic cricket is rubbish, coaching is below-par, and nepotism is obvious at the lower levels.

This could be a 5-10 year rut for Pakistan with the odd win. The current setup will never lead to a proper juggernaut that can win in all conditions.

 

[jnaveen1980]

How many of the current players will feature in top 30 ODI players ever played for Pakistan? Malik? Hafeez?

 

[Madplayer]

India is a force mostly because of kohli. Kohli alone is 50% of the side's quality.

But you obviously cant isolate kohli from this team. This is a tremendous team.

 

[Napa]

India is a force mostly because of kohli. Kohli alone is 50% of the side's quality.

But you obviously cant isolate kohli from this team. This is a tremendous team.

Sometimes Kohli is the most important player in the team (definitely in the current series) and at other times other players step up, for example the last Test of the Ind-Aus series which India won without Kohli in the team.

I would say that India's bowling is much improved from the earlier decades, to the point where the team can compete abroad on fast bouncy pitches. The bowling improvement has nothing to do with Kohli.

Kohli is a bit of a drag as a captain though. Ganguly given the player resources Kohli had, would probably have won the SA Test series 3-0 or at least 2-1.

 

[Titan24]

Won by three bowlers with questionable actions in Ajmal, Junaid and Hafeez. Two of which got banned shortly after.

And three players who were seen to be future greats (Shehzad, Bhatti and Anwar). But a few months later, their performances tapered off at exponential rates.

And players like Misbah who was the last of a dying breed of great batsman that will never be produced again by Pakistan.

Lol! Talk about downgrading others victory to amplify your own.

Dude we played against there best playing Xi of that time. Not like when there three main batsmen were injured and their bowling attack was inexperienced bcz of one reason or another.

India is playing well against whatever in in front of them but, be honest with yourself is this the best South African team playing at home in last 7 years ? I woudl say its the weakest ODI playing XI i have seen from SA in the last decade or so.

 

[Titan24]

By the same logic, you will agree that Bangladesh is a much better team than Pakistan?

And yes by that logic Bangladesh is a much better team than India as well.

 

[Madplayer]

Sometimes Kohli is the most important player in the team (definitely in the current series) and at other times other players step up, for example the last Test of the Ind-Aus series which India won without Kohli in the team.

I would say that India's bowling is much improved from the earlier decades, to the point where the team can compete abroad on fast bouncy pitches. The bowling improvement has nothing to do with Kohli.

Kohli is a bit of a drag as a captain though. Ganguly given the player resources Kohli had, would probably have won the SA Test series 3-0 or at least 2-1.

Yes improvement in pace bowling has made India more potent as a team. But batting will still struggle to chase 300+ in ODIs without Kohli and even in test matches overseas.

 

[Titan24]

To me its about India has improved their cricket a lot in the last decade or so. Some of the factors which played a role might not be liked so i wont argue on them.

No need to compare Pakistan and India, there are now almost 10 test playing nations not just two.

About Pakistan I would say we did really well in tests in the last 7 years (Whatever the reasons were we achieved no 1 rank), ODI cricket declined but we were still able to get some memorable wins.

Now, where Pakistan is standing is a really good position. Some good young players coming team gelling well, everyone who is given a chance performs to an extent. I am positive that all this will convert into results in a year or two.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Yes improvement in pace bowling has made India more potent as a team. But batting will still struggle to chase 300+ in ODIs without Kohli and even in test matches overseas.

That is partly due to Pakistan style selection that is going on these days. Gambhir, Karthik, past by sell date Dhoni, Yuvraj for few matches they were all brought back under Kohli needlessly. India never has the necessity to bring them back. Also selecting one day misfit Rahane over promising KL Rahul is a blunder. Once they start taking care of it they will become invincible.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Mamoon was right.

CT final became the new '92 world cup of Pakistan and whilst this wasn't anything harmful, people are getting nostalgic to the core that they are getting away from reality.

That fits perfectly.

Some of you live in so much in past that, that is somewhat concerning. Because it does prevent you from analyzing the current issue amidst always cherishing the beauty of the past.

Slowly, like Mamoon, i have started to believe that CT was a fluke for Pakistan.

CT final was 10 years back I believe? India, while a very good side, is nowhere near the unbeaten champion that is forced down our throats by Indian fans. You were decimated last June in an important final. You didn't just lose, you were whipped. A champion team doesn't turn up and be swatted away with their pants down their ankles in such matches. They rise to the occasion and atleast compete.

Pandya, after a promising start, is doing literally nothing with the bat right now. I can't remember the last time Dhoni and Jadhav played any sort of innings of importance. For all the ironic bashing Muhammad Amir gets from Indian fans, Bhuvneshwar Kumar has an embarrassing average for a spearhead in LOIs. The reaction here to these three wins over a depleted SA side is akin to the reactions before the CT final. Yet Indians all over the world proceeded to rip the team to shreds as soon as your weaknesses were ruthlessly exposed. You just don't learn, do you?

 

[Bleedgreen4ever]

How many of the current players will feature in top 30 ODI players ever played for Pakistan? Malik? Hafeez?

Fakhar is our best ODI opener since Anwer
Shadab is better than Afridi
Hasan Ali is on his way to become ATG
Sarfaraz had a better batting average than Mlin,Rashid,Kakmal etc.
Amir is unpredictable so let's see.
Babar averages more than Inzi and all our 90s batsmen and he has an ODI century in Australia something which many of our previous greats could not do.


Hope that answers your question

 

[Bleedgreen4ever]

Huge percentage of matches played in era of India's dark age,and pak's golden age.1980s-2000.Most of them were Jamodi's anyway in sharjah.
We have 2 world cups.You have 1.
We have 2 CT and twice runners up to Pak 1.Even WI has won CT.We also won 2 world championship series(predecessor of CT in 1985 and 1994.In 85 beating pak in final in australia)
We are ranked 1 in test and 2 soon to be 1 in ODI.

Oh and ....11-0.

P.S - rest of the posters ignore above .This is a bait post to troll the troll.

What about the matches played in Pakistan's dark era and India's golden era?(1999-2017)

India's WL ratio is still behind Pakistan after so many years of success which clearly shows they have not progressed as much as we mentioned.

 

[HuzaifaE]

And players like Misbah who was the last of a dying breed of great batsman that will never be produced again by Pakistan.

Hah dying breed of great batsmen. Hope that breed is extinct now, should have been since the 90s.

 

[Bleedgreen4ever]

First let India manage to produce a good fast bowler who bowls 150+ then we can decide who is better.

As far as batting is concerned Pakistan has produced greats like Hanif,Miandad,Majid,Abbas etc
Pakistan batting demise started in the 90s and it is then that we became a bowling nation.

 

[Titan24]

[MENTION=1650]Usman Chadda[/MENTION], [MENTION=143972]Bleedgreen4ever[/MENTION] and [MENTION=138894]Flat_Track_Bully[/MENTION]

Nailed it guys.

 

[Napa]

Yes improvement in pace bowling has made India more potent as a team. But batting will still struggle to chase 300+ in ODIs without Kohli and even in test matches overseas.

India has enough batting resources even without Kohli to win abroad. The problem is bad selections, for which Kohli is partly to blame as I mentioned earlier. Including Dhawan and Rohit in the team for the first 2 Tests was partly the reason we lost.

Players like Pujara (especially if he gets over his habit of getting runout), Rahane, Vijay, Prithvi Shaw, Shubham Gill, Rahul etc. are enough to win matches even in the absence of Kohli in the lineup.

 

[Bleedgreen4ever]

First let India manage to produce a good fast bowler who bowls 150+ then we can decide who is better.

We have produced ATG all rounder like IK while their best AR till date is K dev or Hardik Pandya LOL shows the gulf of standards.

As far as batting is concerned Pakistan has produced greats like Hanif,Miandad,Majid,Abbas apart from Gavaskar no Indian batsmen (from pre Tendulkar era) could compete with our greats.

Pakistan batting demise started in the 90s and it is then that we became a bowling nation.

Even after 18 HORRIBLE years(1999-2017)plus no home cricket we still managed to win 2 ICC trophies and 2 U19 CWC as well as numerous finals.

 

[Bleedgreen4ever]

India has enough batting resources even without Kohli to win abroad. The problem is bad selections, for which Kohli is partly to blame as I mentioned earlier. Including Dhawan and Rohit in the team for the first 2 Tests was partly the reason we lost.

Players like Pujara, Rahane, Vijay, Prithvi Shaw, Shubham Gill, Rahul etc. are enough to win matches even in the absence of Kohli in the lineup.

Well 27/7 versus SL at home does not paint a very bright picture about what could happen to India abroad without Kohli providing stability.

The U19 team that won the WC in 2012 none of their players are in the senior squad yet.let us see when Gill and Shaw debut for India.

 

[Titan24]

India has enough batting resources even without Kohli to win abroad. The problem is bad selections, for which Kohli is partly to blame as I mentioned earlier. Including Dhawan and Rohit in the team for the first 2 Tests was partly the reason we lost.

Players like Pujara (especially if he gets over his habit of getting runout), Rahane, Vijay, Prithvi Shaw, Shubham Gill, Rahul etc. are enough to win matches even in the absence of Kohli in the lineup.

Which international matches did any of these names you mentioned won?

 

[Napa]

Well 27/7 versus SL at home does not paint a very bright picture about what could happen to India abroad without Kohli providing stability.

If you are really going find that ONE performance to prove your point, I would say 27/7 in a JAMODI is a lot less embarrassing than 1/4 in a WC game:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...-indies-10th-match,-pool-b-world-cup-2014-15/

As for your delusion about Pakistan being a better team than India historically, the only reason Pakistan is ahead in any head-to-head is that India has refused to play Pakistan in the mid-60s to mid-70s and the past decade which would have turned the head-to-head massively in India's favor.

India was ranked the #1 Test team for 24 months in the 20th century compared to Pakistan's 2 months, and don't get me started on the 11-0 streak.

 

[Napa]

Which international matches did any of these names you mentioned won?

You can start with the series deciding Test match against the Australians and continue from there.

 

[Sidilicious]

India doing better is nothing to do with series, or WC or results in. my opinion. Its all about the grass roots setup.

Pakistan also has the ability and the money to invest due to PSL. But will PCB do it? This is the simple problem.

 

[AssassinatedDevil]

The timing of this thread strikes me as very weird. If this thread was opened around 2015 when we lost to Bangladesh badly and there was seemingly no hope that good young players could make it into the team, I would've whole heartedly agreed that the gap between india and pakistan is widening. India has been a much better team than us over the past decade and there is no question about that.


The problem with this discussion arises when you look at 2016 onwards, and how Pakistan has been able to inject young talent in batting as well as bowling. In Babar, we have a young batsman who has shown that he has the capacity and consistency to score runs for the team and act as the main anchor due to his ability to bat for long. He needs to step up a bit more against bigger teams for sure but it's not like he has failed entirely against them. He has a hundred against aus in aus, couple of fine knocks against NZ in all formats of the game, and did decently well in England. He's been the only Pakistani batsman in a long time to make his way into the top 10 rankings for odis, which is an achievement in itself.

In Hassan we have a bowler who is very consistent for most of the games he plays. When he picks up wickets, he does so in huge bags. He rarely goes for an absurd amount of runs like Wahab used to and has expertly taken over the helm of our fast bowling lineup from Wahab( and yes I don’t believe amir to be the leader of the fast bowling pack). His consistency is reflected in his ODI ranking. Every time he goes out to bowl, you can feel that he is going to pick up wickets.

In Shadab we have a world class allrounder in the making who has impressed almost every time he has stepped onto the field. We have on our hands an allrounder that is internationally praised in t20 leagues because of his athleticism and killer deceptive googlies. Highly energetic and charismatic, he has the potential to gain the star power akin to what Afridi possessed in his own career. He may be Pakistan's captain down the line after Sarfraz retires, and he definitely seems to possess the cricketing brain that is required for captaincy. Wise beyond his years indeed.

In Fakhar we FINALLY have a permanent opener who can bat at a pace suitable for the modern game. He has been reasonably consistent so far . We still have the second opener slot available for anyone but at least one is occupied by Fakhar. Good fielder as well.

So in short, this team has overcome some of its worst shortcomings.

-Find young talent, inject them into the team, and make sure they are more consistent than the people they are replacing
-Find a good solid opener who can provide you with brisk starts but also has the ability to play reasonably long innings.
-Find a middle order batsman who is consistent and scores at a reasonably good strike rate
-Find a good spin-allrounder who could fill in the gap made by the departures of afridi/ajmal.

If anything, the gap between India and Pakistan is shortening. We may have lost the ODIs against NZ but there is no reason to ring any major alarm bells. The nucleus of the team should remain the same and in the future hopefully pcb schedules the tours so that the team can go there a lot earlier to acclimatize with the conditions. India is definitely still the better ODI and test team but in no way is the gap widening. Part of that is because India has less improvement to do as compared to Pakistan. The next encounter between the 2 sides will be very interesting because of the freshness that these players bring from both camps.

 

[Titan24]

You can start with the series deciding Test match against the Australians and continue from there.

The match you were talking about I dont see any extraordinary performances from both sides. Fifties by two of the names you mentioned in a test match doesnt make them into match winners.

And continue where?

 

[Titan24]

The timing of this thread strikes me as very weird. If this thread was opened around 2015 when we lost to Bangladesh badly and there was seemingly no hope that good young players could make it into the team, I would've whole heartedly agreed that the gap between india and pakistan is widening. India has been a much better team than us over the past decade and there is no question about that.


The problem with this discussion arises when you look at 2016 onwards, and how Pakistan has been able to inject young talent in batting as well as bowling. In Babar, we have a young batsman who has shown that he has the capacity and consistency to score runs for the team and act as the main anchor due to his ability to bat for long. He needs to step up a bit more against bigger teams for sure but it's not like he has failed entirely against them. He has a hundred against aus in aus, couple of fine knocks against NZ in all formats of the game, and did decently well in England. He's been the only Pakistani batsman in a long time to make his way into the top 10 rankings for odis, which is an achievement in itself.



In Hassan we have a bowler who is very consistent for most of the games he plays. When he picks up wickets, he does so in huge bags. He rarely goes for an absurd amount of runs like Wahab used to and has expertly taken over the helm of our fast bowling lineup from Wahab( and yes I don’t believe amir to be the leader of the fast bowling pack). His consistency is reflected in his ODI ranking. Every time he goes out to bowl, you can feel that he is going to pick up wickets.


In Shadab we have a world class allrounder in the making who has impressed almost every time he has stepped onto the field. We have on our hands an allrounder that is internationally praised in t20 leagues because of his athleticism and killer deceptive googlies. Highly energetic and charismatic, he has the potential to gain the star power akin to what Afridi possessed in his own career. He may be Pakistan's captain down the line after Sarfraz retires, and he definitely seems to possess the cricketing brain that is required for captaincy. Wise beyond his years indeed.

In Fakhar we FINALLY have a permanent opener who can bat at a pace suitable for the modern game. He has been reasonably consistent so far . We still have the second opener slot available for anyone but at least one is occupied by Fakhar. Good fielder as well.

So in short, this team has overcome some of its worst shortcomings.

-Find young talent, inject them into the team, and make sure they are more consistent than the people they are replacing
-Find a good solid opener who can provide you with brisk starts but also has the ability to play reasonably long innings.
-Find a middle order batsman who is consistent and scores at a reasonably good strike rate
-Find a good spin-allrounder who could fill in the gap made by the departures of afridi/ajmal.

If anything, the gap between India and Pakistan is shortening. We may have lost the ODIs against NZ but there is no reason to ring any major alarm bells. The nucleus of the team should remain the same and in the future hopefully pcb schedules the tours so that the team can go there a lot earlier to acclimatize with the conditions. India is definitely still the better ODI and test team but in no way is the gap widening. Part of that is because India has less improvement to do as compared to PakistanThe next encounter between the 2 sides will be very interesting because of the freshness that these players bring from both camps.

Great post!

People here need to realize the international products (Stars in making) Pakistan is producing which is giving new energy to not only Pakistan but to world cricket and there are many more to on the way.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Unfair to compare this young Pakistan team with the established Indian team. India is performing according to their potential and are probably at their peak. Pakistan might go left or right, depending on how well the young players develop further. There's a massive difference in the thought-process of the two teams right now. One is rebuilding (in the right direction, finally) and the other has established itself on the world stage. And yet Pakistan has it in them to smack the bananas out of India in an important final.

 

[Bleedgreen4ever]

If you are really going find that ONE performance to prove your point, I would say 27/7 in a JAMODI is a lot less embarrassing than 1/4 in a WC game:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...-indies-10th-match,-pool-b-world-cup-2014-15/

As for your delusion about Pakistan being a better team than India historically, the only reason Pakistan is ahead in any head-to-head is that India has refused to play Pakistan in the mid-60s to mid-70s and the past decade which would have turned the head-to-head massively in India's favor.

India was ranked the #1 Test team for 24 months in the 20th century compared to Pakistan's 2 months, and don't get me started on the 11-0 streak.

Every match India loses is a jamodi right?
If India was such a great team in the 1960s and 1970s why did they struggle to win a single test match in England and WI?
Pakistan beat India in their very second encounter.

Pakistan won in India in a test series in 1987 while India repeated the same in 2004.

Even one of your best Indian sides got thrashed by our weakest side in 2012 so don't start about bilaterals.

Btw one more correction,this is the 21st century and we are not talking about 21st century we are talking about overall cricket in which Pakistan was and always will be superior.

Even in all sports like hockey,squash Pakistan is ahead of India head to head despite having poorer infrastructure.

It's just that Pakistanis are physically more stronger than Indians.

 

[Bleedgreen4ever]

The timing of this thread strikes me as very weird. If this thread was opened around 2015 when we lost to Bangladesh badly and there was seemingly no hope that good young players could make it into the team, I would've whole heartedly agreed that the gap between india and pakistan is widening. India has been a much better team than us over the past decade and there is no question about that.


The problem with this discussion arises when you look at 2016 onwards, and how Pakistan has been able to inject young talent in batting as well as bowling. In Babar, we have a young batsman who has shown that he has the capacity and consistency to score runs for the team and act as the main anchor due to his ability to bat for long. He needs to step up a bit more against bigger teams for sure but it's not like he has failed entirely against them. He has a hundred against aus in aus, couple of fine knocks against NZ in all formats of the game, and did decently well in England. He's been the only Pakistani batsman in a long time to make his way into the top 10 rankings for odis, which is an achievement in itself.

In Hassan we have a bowler who is very consistent for most of the games he plays. When he picks up wickets, he does so in huge bags. He rarely goes for an absurd amount of runs like Wahab used to and has expertly taken over the helm of our fast bowling lineup from Wahab( and yes I don’t believe amir to be the leader of the fast bowling pack). His consistency is reflected in his ODI ranking. Every time he goes out to bowl, you can feel that he is going to pick up wickets.

In Shadab we have a world class allrounder in the making who has impressed almost every time he has stepped onto the field. We have on our hands an allrounder that is internationally praised in t20 leagues because of his athleticism and killer deceptive googlies. Highly energetic and charismatic, he has the potential to gain the star power akin to what Afridi possessed in his own career. He may be Pakistan's captain down the line after Sarfraz retires, and he definitely seems to possess the cricketing brain that is required for captaincy. Wise beyond his years indeed.

In Fakhar we FINALLY have a permanent opener who can bat at a pace suitable for the modern game. He has been reasonably consistent so far . We still have the second opener slot available for anyone but at least one is occupied by Fakhar. Good fielder as well.

So in short, this team has overcome some of its worst shortcomings.

-Find young talent, inject them into the team, and make sure they are more consistent than the people they are replacing
-Find a good solid opener who can provide you with brisk starts but also has the ability to play reasonably long innings.
-Find a middle order batsman who is consistent and scores at a reasonably good strike rate
-Find a good spin-allrounder who could fill in the gap made by the departures of afridi/ajmal.

If anything, the gap between India and Pakistan is shortening. We may have lost the ODIs against NZ but there is no reason to ring any major alarm bells. The nucleus of the team should remain the same and in the future hopefully pcb schedules the tours so that the team can go there a lot earlier to acclimatize with the conditions. India is definitely still the better ODI and test team but in no way is the gap widening. Part of that is because India has less improvement to do as compared to Pakistan. The next encounter between the 2 sides will be very interesting because of the freshness that these players bring from both camps.

Excellent post!

POTW.

 

[Cozyrensetter]

I think another factor is the development cycle of a player.Due to ipl i think our players developed their skills quickly as compared to their pakistani counterparts and also brought in new faces in the team faster.That was the prime reason pakistan was not competing againist us during 2010-2015.However by introduction of psl,we are seeing the same for pakistan.Shadab,fakhar,hasan,sharjeel are all products of psl and see how far they have come and developed fast.
Yes there is a gap between the two teams and that has a major contribution from a player like Kohli but i feel pakistan are closing that gap and that's what we saw at ct final.
Ipl brought fearlessness into the indian setup and the same is happening to pakistan with psl.Fakhar is not afraid to take blows,Take quick singles,shadab is not afraid of flighting the ball even after being hit for a six.
Earlier pakistan teams used to go into a shell and never come out.

 

[Mr.Q]

[MENTION=137148]Rayyman[/MENTION] I understand the circumstances under which you created this thread but you shouldn't have made it an India specific discussion. Knowingly or unknowlingly you poked the ego of some people . And never say never! With the right setup, Pakistan cricket can and will make brisk progress. I don't see any reason to lose hope.

Actually when it comes to Pakistan, looking at its cricket in isolation is a crime. So many issues have directly and indirectly affected it. State of the economy, politics, terrorism... It's a long list. Having a good system in place is very important. India is certainly not the ideal example when it comes to that. Look at China. How do you think they're getting all those gold medals in the Olympics? Their system is a bit like a jail and not someting we should follow but still it's a good example to understand the importance of it.

India is way ahead at the moment in cricket. At the senior level and junior level. And the gap is quite BIG. I have nothing much to say to people who think otherwise. You can only correct the ignorant; not the pretender. The CT victory was a great and important one for Pakistan cricket but instead of living in hangover of that victory for ever, you should use the motivation and confidence it gave to create a stronger team. I see some exciting young talent like Shadab here and there but I don't see an exciting team. That's the problem.

[MENTION=137148]Rayyman[/MENTION] is no 'wrist slitter'. I've seen him defend Pak players (Babar Azam and Hafeez in particular ) on many occasions. I've had disagreements with him but I can see the disappointment but also the love for his country in this post of his. But what I see in some other posts here is a hatred towards India; not the love for Pakistan. Some of you guys are under the impression that we Indains are happy to see Pakistan cricket not doing well. That's not the case at all. We want you to do good. More than cricket, we want your economy to prosper and we want yot to be politically stable. India would be the biggest beneficiary of Pakistan having a strong, stable government. So stop this hate speech .

 

[subbu]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/283878.html
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283877.html

Those are all-time win-loss records for ODI's and Tests. Pakistan are superior to India in both. That's hard numbers to display why we have been a better team than India. We also have superior head-to-heads.

What can be accepted is the incredible improvement of Indian cricket since 2000. They have pushed up their win percentage almost 8-10%!

gap has been reduced ..way things are going India might take lead in couple of years ..

ODIs overall Win%
Pakistan 54.30
India 54.07

Tests win/loss ratio
Pakistan 1952-2017 1.08
India 1932-2018 0.90

T20s overall win%
Pakistan 1.608
India 1.666