Pakistan is heading into the dark days once again?

[mominsaigol]

We all commonly know the Misbah era to be the dark days of white ball cricket for Pakistan.

What was once a respected and feared team winning 2009 t20 wc and making it into the semi's of 2011 and almost winning and ending the 35 match aus streak,

To a team that would frequently get humiliated by India, consistently collapse and scamper till 200, got shoved to no 6 and then no 9 rank and was seen as a joke nation overall.

Then post Misbah era their was a resurgence, Whether 2017 CT was a fluke or a genuine tournament win, one thing was clear, Pakistani awaam were once again united and were over the moon for a prestigious win, utterly humiliating our arch rivals in the final on a grand stage. The slogans from no 8 to champions, was spread all over the nation .

And then everything went south. After a disastrous 2018 campaign, and a less then stellar albeit unlucky world cup 2019, Pakistan was forced to move to a haphazard captaincy change.

Babar azam the prodigal star of 2019 wc, with a healthy 67 avg at a decent sr was to be appointed captain, Things on surface seemed to be going great, After all, Pakistan had finally found their star, A man who was hyped to be able to compete if not surpass Kohli, the New X factor batsmen for Pakistan, and a man who on paper seemed to be a natural born leader was to lead Pakistan to a glorious 4 year 2023 wc campaign.

However underneath the surface, an old snake from the past was about to re emerge.

Misbah the saviour, the man who had once led the team to ruin was now given complete and utterly control as coach, selector, chairman and it was clear he would groom babar and call all the shots. And this is exactly what happened.

The first key decision Misbah would make is to promote rizwan and Babar to t20 opening, thereby replacing Fakhar, the sole X factor and the man who had won you the ct 2017 trophy and played clutch knocks no other pakistani batsmen could dream of playing was shoved put of position at no 3. While fakhar was am inconsistent batsmen who failed to perform on many occasions and had not replicated his occasional odi magic into t20, at no 3, Fakhar became a foot note and his performance proceeded to worsen even further.

Rizwan and Babar would then proceed to become obsolete t20 nightmares. On paper things seemed hunky dory, You have a no 1 batsmen who scored 3 t20 centuries, Rizwan who reached no 1 rank with a healthy average of 50, And yet all this was achieved against d string bowling.

The reality would be exposed coming 2021 t20 world cup, 2022 Asia cup and 2022 t20 wc

Where Babar and rizwan would have frequently poor performances often leading to match crippling innings such as babar's 39 of 34 in a crunch semi final game against aus, costing Pakistan 20 to 30 runs short of the target they could have achieved.

Rizwan's horrific performance against Sri Lanka in Asia cup final where his 55 of 49 would cost us the game despite Sri lanka providing Pakistan with an 11 run headstart and a beyond embrassing 2022 t20 wc campaign for our openers where they consistently failed minus one NZ game.

The reality had been exposed. Babar and rizzu were nothing more then frauds and fans starting dubbing the term Glorified Stat Padders, I.e: Both batters who would dominate d string bowling but would cost us games when the big dawgs arrived, unlike Fakhar who while inconsistent played match winning knocks against quality bowling attacks, Now replaced by a Hollow shell of 2 embrassing batsmen on display who to this day even in 2023 wc, fail to capitalise on even semi decent bowling attacks, often crippling pakistan's chances of winning resulting in a negative Net rr for Pakistan.

The 2nd Change Misbah would make is adopting a buddy culture.

Something that was very common during misbah's tenure as captain was the buddy system. Debutants like umar Amin would be made into vice captains out of the blue and players like asad shafiq would be given the power to hog the vital no 3 spot over more deserving players despite shafiq averaging 24 and a sr of 65 at that spot.

This would continue during misbah's coaching as the likes of imad waseem, Sarfraz, amir and players who had conteibited to the success of ct 2017 were discarded for the likes of khusdil, Asif ali, Haider ali and proceed to fail multiple times for Pakistan.

Even after Misbah's sacking, this culture continued with babar now adopting the reigns of frequently playing nawaz, shadab, rizwan over more deserving and better suited players to take the mantle, frequent concessions now having to be made for deserving youngsters batting out of position such as the young and blooming talent in saud shakeel just to satisfy babar and rizwan forever occupying no 3 and no 4, 2 of the most important slots in odi cricket.

4 Years later

Under babar's amazing tutelage, we have proceeded to lose 4 games in a row this wc 2023, our rr in the negatives, a middle order that's non existent, players who babar haiked as match winners such as imam and nawaz, frequently being the biggest architects of our defeat, with fans just forever hoping that on the off-chance Pakistan somehow make it to semi's.

Dear God, please have NZ lose to Sri Lanka, please don't let Sri lanka collapse against NZ just like the collapsed against India. Please god, please have Afghanistan stay away from the semi spot.

Everyone prays for a teams that gives the entire nation a heart attack.

After the world cup, as in typical pakistani culture, Babar will be sacked soon enough, his replacement however will be none other then

Muhammad Rizwan

That's right folkes, the director of talent management, The A contract superstar, The man who secretly holds all the strings, the one who sits > the Pcb management will have his dream turn into a reality, and I only fear the worst.

Despite rizwan's 131 heroics, it seems as if fans have failed and forgetten how often rizwan has solely cost us games against quality opposition, the asia cup and wc 2022 final, are 2 knives that continue to stab us, while we bleed out desprate for the hope that rizwan comes good.

And I fear the absolute worst now. Based of how rizwan jokes with the opposition and plays for himself, it seems as if under his tutelage, we will be even more in the water, an dark era that may even surpass the misbah era as we all succumb to rizwan's wrath.

A man who'd rather laugh with the opposition then support his team, a man who'd rather play for himself than his country, a man who'd rather Block pathways for youngsters then blossom new buds for the future, a man who is more obsessed with calling all the shots and running our country dry into the ground.

My voice may not be heard, i fear that i will be seen as a laughing stock for spreading the dark truth, as rizwan and babar are still seen as no 1's, the saviours of our nation, the same saviour as misbah was once viewed in the same retrospective light.

All ik is, we are in a storm atm, and a dark hurricane is coming, and I will be watching as people despair at the horror.

 

[MenInG]

Wow - Was looking good until Rizwan's name came in.

All I hope is Allah swt forgive you for the aspersions you are casting on Rizwan's character.

But continue - am sure you will get a few likes from your admirers.

 

[mominsaigol]

Wow - Was looking good until Rizwan's name came in.

All I hope is Allah swt forgive you for the aspersions you are casting on Rizwan's character.

But continue - am sure you will get a few likes from your admirers.

Oh come on bro, I put my heart and soul into this.

As for rizwan, this isn't me critising the player, this is me critiquing the person, Ik you like rizzu, so all I'll say is, I hope I'm 100% wrong and you're proven right at the end of the day.

Because I don't think you're willing to have a formal discussion about it

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

I’m surprised Rizwan gets as much stick as he does from some Pakistani fans. He may not be a world beater yet, but he is already a world class player with (I feel) a high ceiling.

This is not relevant but from his behaviour he is also a great ambassador for his country and the sport.

More criticism should be directed at with the system, the processes.

 

[mominsaigol]

I’m surprised Rizwan gets as much stick as he does from some Pakistani fans. He may not be a world beater yet, but he is already a world class player with (I feel) a high ceiling.

This is not relevant but from his behaviour he is also a great ambassador for his country and the sport.

More criticism should be directed at with the system, the processes.

He is a director of a talent management company that has advocated for the selection of players such as nawaz and shadab.

He's also the one who occupies favourite slots and gets whatever he wants and it's his and babar's fault that many youngsters like saud are forced to bat out of position.

Lastly wdym by world class? He has a good innings against the most toothless bowling attack in the tournament and one that didn't have mattews either, as well as bamgaldesh 26 being toothless as well

4 matches in a row he's failed miserably where Babar and saud are atleast scoring 50's, So is Abdullah and fakhar?

Do people literally just forget his 2021 and 2022 performances?

The guy has only one good innings against quality bowlers in his life, and that's against 2022 India.

The rest are either b or c strings and he fails miserably in each of em?

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

He is a director of a talent management company that has advocated for the selection of players such as nawaz and shadab.

He's also the one who occupies favourite slots and gets whatever he wants and it's his and babar's fault that many youngsters like saud are forced to bat out of position.

Lastly wdym by world class? He has a good innings against the most toothless bowling attack in the tournament and one that didn't have mattews either, as well as bamgaldesh 26 being toothless as well

4 matches in a row he's failed miserably where Babar and saud are atleast scoring 50's, So is Abdullah and fakhar?

Do people literally just forget his 2021 and 2022 performances?

The guy has only one good innings against quality bowlers in his life, and that's against 2022 India.

The rest are either b or c strings and he fails miserably in each of em?

Well you are obviously more knowledgeable about your player than I as an Indian fan.

However, your first two paras (use of influence) are conjecture.

Now as for performance - I thought his his Test, ODI and T-20 averages and even strike rates were pretty decent?

I know the data can be deceptive - for example quality of opposition can vary. But unless y’all have another Gilchrist or De Kock or something even Pant waiting in the wings those numbers are indicative of a very decent player who has high potential.

I think you’re almost setting him up as some sort of evil mastermind lol, and that’s a bit over the top.

 

[MenInG]

Oh come on bro, I put my heart and soul into this.

As for rizwan, this isn't me critising the player, this is me critiquing the person, Ik you like rizzu, so all I'll say is, I hope I'm 100% wrong and you're proven right at the end of the day.

Because I don't think you're willing to have a formal discussion about it

I am fine to talk about Rizwan's stats and I will agree but I draw the line on character assassination of any cricketer for fear of my final reckoning.

 

[mominsaigol]

Well you are obviously more knowledgeable about your player than I as an Indian fan.

However, your first two paras (use of influence) are conjecture.

Now as for performance - I thought his his Test, ODI and T-20 averages and even strike rates were pretty decent?

I know the data can be deceptive - for example quality of opposition can vary. But unless y’all have another Gilchrist or De Kock or something even Pant waiting in the wings those numbers are indicative of a very decent player who has high potential.

I think you’re almost setting him up as some sort of evil mastermind lol, and that’s a bit over the top.

The evil mastermind thing is because I worded the essay as a Halloween story cause its a long post so I needed to make in engaging for the viewer.

That's why I called misbah an old snake from the past lol.

But on a serious note, Rizwan is a director of a company and he's the one calling the shots atm, and his no 4 nonsense and opening nonsense and unwillingness to step down causes problems in general

 

[Itachi]

He is a director of a talent management company that has advocated for the selection of players such as nawaz and shadab.

Many people intentionally avoid this point while supporting Rizwan.

 

[mominsaigol]

I am fine to talk about Rizwan's stats and I will agree but I draw the line on character assassination of any cricketer for fear of my final reckoning.

How is it character Assassination? If I made this post literally before the world cup, you'd be saying I'm character assassinating babar? Even though now it's obvious that he threatened to walk out on pcb if his team was not selected?

For all talks about Allah, Did allah not send down karma on Babar for not selecting abrar over nawaz like hafeez Suggested?

I use to like rizwan, until I found out that he's the director of the talent management company, meaning he has full say on who gets selected.

His no 4 nonsense is also full news, Babar and rizzu blocking paths for youngsters is a common occurrence, and I'd be fine with it, had he met the mark, but he proceeds to fail in clutch moments and can only establish himself against toothless bowling.

The guy performs here and their against weak bowling and plays clutch knocks only against weak bowling, But rizzu's politics is associated with misbah and misbah's politics destroyed the team.

Rizzu isn't helping his case either when all of twitter hates the fact that he literally jokes with the opposition dug out in pressure stages, especially when Babar is crying for defeats.

This isn't character Assassination, it's facts and information being presented to you, but you don't like said facts and information, you like facts and information about misbah cause it appeals to you, but rizwan's clearly does not.

At the end of the day, Allah will determine everything. Quote this post in 2025 champions trophy fam. . Rizzu as captian

 

[Stewie]

As Wasim Akram often says “barey wehley log hein, hor koi kum nai karan noo?”

Aisey lammey lammey essay school mein bhi likh diya karo kabhi, chaar number hi a jayein. Shaking my head.. bunch of crybabies our people!

 

[sweep_shot]

I do not think Pakistan are going into dark days.

2010 side was involved in spot-fixing and other dramas. This side is much cleaner and offers a better image of Pakistan.

The issue right now is related to team selection and performance.

 

[mominsaigol]

I do not think Pakistan are going into dark days.

2010 side was involved in spot-fixing and other dramas. This side is much cleaner and offers a better image of Pakistan.

The issue right now is related to team selection and performance.

We were already a goated team in 2011. We chocked in semi finals but we had India beat.

We recovered and were class in 2011. Us kei baad kya hoa?

Every single ex cricketer is united against our team for the first time in history.

Misbah the Destroyer is against his own destruction. This is what happens when you make talent management companies.

 

[mominsaigol]

As Wasim Akram often says “barey wehley log hein, hor koi kum nai karan noo?”

Aisey lammey lammey essay school mein bhi likh diya karo kabhi, chaar number hi a jayein. Shaking my head.. bunch of crybabies our people!

Wasim akram also says this team is eating 8 kilos mutton every day.

Pakistan 11 is quickly becoming pot belly 11.

 

[JaDed]

I do not think Pakistan are going into dark days.

2010 side was involved in spot-fixing and other dramas. This side is much cleaner and offers a better image of Pakistan.

The issue right now is related to team selection and performance.

Rectifying 2010 helped them in long run, not acknowledging all the conflicts right now wrt management company will actually ruin a lot of careers at this rate.

 

[emranabbas]

regarding Rizwan i understand we don't have Gilchrist waiting or De Kock its doesn't mean we continue with average quality Rizwan, others need to be given a chance too. rizwan dont have to play every single d string team and can be given a rest

here are the scores of gilchrist's first odi games

18, 0, 1, 77, 26, 20, 3

had adam gilchrist been born in Pakistan he would have been dropped after first 3 games and never ever given a chance again

 

[daytrader]

Misbah and Rizwan live rent free in some minds. They are the two of the most clean, sane and respectable cricketers we have produced in recent times yet for some they are the bane of Pakistan cricket. Thankless lot honestly, can never be proud of our heroes.

 

[mominsaigol]

Misbah and Rizwan live rent free in some minds. They are the two of the most clean, sane and respectable cricketers we have produced in recent times yet for some they are the bane of Pakistan cricket. Thankless lot honestly, can never be proud of our heroes.

Bro, let's say hypothetically you're right, and I'm the one who's at fault for everything.

Don't you think calling them Legends, and then saying their clean, Sane and respectable cricketers is too much?

Misbah can fit in the brand of clean amd respectable, irrespective of what that talent company may or may not hold, A clean person doesn't secretly get revealed to be a director of a secret company overnight.

Secondly their not legends or Heroes. A hero doesn't cost us a tournament and then proceed to get bashed by every ex cricketer imaginable.

Nor does a Hero have claims on them about holding pcb hostage which were claims made about rizzu after sarfi got injured in test and rizzu came back to replace him

 

[CerebralPatriot]

Excellent post

Right now Pakistan cricket is in a make or break moment with their being two paths we can go down.

The first path is that of the dark days this thread talks about. A path were mediocrity reigns supreme, a path where the individual is prioritised over the team, the same path which our hockey and squash legacy went down

The second path is a chance to revive our once great sport. To invest in players with talent and skill, to create a culture of prioritising the team first, to finally build an aggressive brand of cricket like the big teams

These two paths can be personified by two wicketkeepers: Sarfraz Ahmed and Mohammad Rizwan

One of the two is the embodiment of personal glory over team, he is the one who will certainly take our cricket down it's darkest path and create a culture based on friendship and nepotism. Not just that but as a captain he will transform our team into a laughing stock

The other is a champion, a warrior who has one us two ICC trophies already. A fighter who puts the team first and personal records second. An excellent strategist who will transform Pakistan into the best it can be

Ultimately we are at a crossroads with the key man who will decided our future being our current chairman.

 

[Itachi]

I still have yet to see one counter point against the argument that OP gave.

Many people are accusing OP of character assassination or whatever but has not even tried to put a counter argument.

It is at the verge of rizwan becoming some cult like personality where you CAN NOT CRITICISE him not matter what. He is above any criticism.

You see OP, this is what happens when people have the mentality of seeking hero's. They wanted one, they got one.

Under no circumstances, they can lose him. They need to protect the notion at any cost. That includes avoiding any arguments against him even if justified.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Don’t get the hate for Rizwan. Was instrumental in our two initial wins in the World Cup, without him we were in tatters against lowly opposition.

Once again this is a case of fans thinking whoever is on the bench is the next best thing since sliced bread, then get brought to the ground with a brutal reality check.

Going back to Sarfraz right now will be suicidal say the least, he is a washed up cricketer.

 

[Buffet]

Unless there is another episode of fixing , there are no dark days for Pakistani cricket.

 

[mominsaigol]

I still have yet to see one counter point against the argument that OP gave.

Many people are accusing OP of character assassination or whatever but has not even tried to put a counter argument.

It is at the verge of rizwan becoming some cult like personality where you CAN NOT CRITICISE him not matter what. He is above any criticism.

You see OP, this is what happens when people have the mentality of seeking hero's. They wanted one, they got one.

Under no circumstances, they can lose him. They need to protect the notion at any cost. That includes avoiding any arguments against him even if justified.

Brother its because no one can logically counter argue anything I say.

I'm the only poster to this date that presents facts over emotion.

When I am wrong in certain factors, I am the first to admit it.

 

[gibsyhesperis]

Two things
1) Some posters seem to forget the absolute nadir that Pakistan cricket approached after the match fixing scandal. There were calls for them to be banned from international cricket (and for the big three that would be no loss, as none of them really like touring there). In a game increasingly driven by money Pak cricket does not provide that as far as other boards are concerned.
Misbah restored a degree of respect to the nation on an international stage.

2) When most independent commentators (Atherton, Hussain etc) are asked to name the most admired players in the Pakistan set up they would name Babar, SSA and Rizwan.
It is extraordinary how Rizwan is vilified on here by certain posters — though I have to admit the fact that he lives “rent free” in their consciousness is most entertaining and amusing and provides double pleasure when he scores runs — firstly because he has scored the runs and because how much it must gall the haters

 

[mominsaigol]

Don’t get the hate for Rizwan. Was instrumental in our two initial wins in the World Cup, without him we were in tatters against lowly opposition.

Once again this is a case of fans thinking whoever is on the bench is the next best thing since sliced bread, then get brought to the ground with a brutal reality check.

Going back to Sarfraz right now will be suicidal say the least, he is a washed up cricketer.

Where does the op mention sarfraz beyond the ct 2017 win, where does it mention to bring sarfi back? Or even remotely imply it?

"Was Instrumental in our two initial wins"

First of this mentality is the problem. Give someone 100+ games and eventually they'll end up performing once or 2x.

Ahmed shehzad is a , but he and fawad alam was instrumental in semi final against Bangladesh in Asia cup 2014 as he scored a 100.

Umar akmal is seen as a Crybaby but he scored a 102 amd won against afghanistan from a collapse position.

Sri lankan bowling attack was beyond toothless but fair enough, rizzu performed and we won. 2021 wc we also won against India by 10 wickets.

But in these games, take away minnow bashing or d string bashing, how many games has rizzu won us? Be 100% honest? Just one against India in 2021.

Shall I count how many games we LOST BECAUSE OF HIM?

- Asia cup 2022 final we lost because of his molasses 50 chasing down 159 as Sri lanka started off with 11 wides before the first ball was bowled.

- WC 2022 final because he took nearly 3 overs to make 15 runs and when he got put, he left us in a crippled position so we scamppered to 137

- WC 2021 Seminfinal: Another slow as molasses 67 which cost us, Nearly 10 overs he took to get it, causing us to be 30 runs short of the initial target

- WC 2022 against Zimbabwe took another 3 overs to get to 14 which again put us in a crippled state.

^^ These were all crucial tournament games. And rizzu has what? One or maybe 2 if you count nz semi final performance to boot?

Shall I count his odi performance as well? It would make sense if he got dismissed. But he doesn't even get dismissed properly, when he gets out, the rr is often too high for any batter to come in and achieve. 99% of the time he gets out, Pakistan loses because the rr isn't possible to catch up.

 

[emranabbas]

Don’t get the hate for Rizwan. Was instrumental in our two initial wins in the World Cup, without him we were in tatters against lowly opposition.

Once again this is a case of fans thinking whoever is on the bench is the next best thing since sliced bread, then get brought to the ground with a brutal reality check.

Going back to Sarfraz right now will be suicidal say the least, he is a washed up cricketer.

so what your suggesting is stick to Rizwan until he's 40+ and not try different options for betterment of Pakistani cricket
just because Rizwan has won you few games vs d string bowling attack

 

[daytrader]

I still have yet to see one counter point against the argument that OP gave.

Many people are accusing OP of character assassination or whatever but has not even tried to put a counter argument.

It is at the verge of rizwan becoming some cult like personality where you CAN NOT CRITICISE him not matter what. He is above any criticism.

You see OP, this is what happens when people have the mentality of seeking hero's. They wanted one, they got one.

Under no circumstances, they can lose him. They need to protect the notion at any cost. That includes avoiding any arguments against him even if justified.

You've been here long enough to know this topic has been discussed to death. Arguments on both side are clear and on record.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

It's always been a dark age with glimmers of light

 

[mominsaigol]

Two things
1) Some posters seem to forget the absolute nadir that Pakistan cricket approached after the match fixing scandal. There were calls for them to be banned from international cricket (and for the big three that would be no loss, as none of them really like touring there). In a game increasingly driven by money Pak cricket does not provide that as far as other boards are concerned.
Misbah restored a degree of respect to the nation on an international stage.

2) When most independent commentators (Atherton, Hussain etc) are asked to name the most admired players in the Pakistan set up they would name Babar, SSA and Rizwan.
It is extraordinary how Rizwan is vilified on here by certain posters — though I have to admit the fact that he lives “rent free” in their consciousness is most entertaining and amusing and provides double pleasure when he scores runs — firstly because he has scored the runs and because how much it must gall the haters

1) Misbah didn't restore Any degree of respect, He captained in 2012, the scandal happened in 2010, in 2011 afridi was captaining and took us to semi final which was the last time we ever reached, and India 2011 offered us respect by saying we were a tougher team to beat then Sri lanka. Misbah wasn't the one who restored it. Get your facts straight.

2) what about proper ex cricketers outright clowning rizzu and Babar for their nonsense t20 world cup performance and their current WC performance? Or are only these independent commentator opinion valid? Chalo, India already made shaheen, babar and rizwan their bunny 2x, this year. Many more phainti's to come

 

[MMHS]

Rizwan is the best player for PAK in this WC by some margin - without him, PAK would have been hanging on one win against BD. He was instrumental for the counter attack against Dutch from 38/3 (without him at other end, Saud in his comeback game,!wont have lasted long), and played an epic against SRL.

May not be good choice for Captaincy for his age (& I hate WK captaining), but he is the best white ball batsman for PAK in recent times, if not overall the best player.

 

[CerebralPatriot]

Don’t get the hate for Rizwan. Was instrumental in our two initial wins in the World Cup, without him we were in tatters against lowly opposition.

Once again this is a case of fans thinking whoever is on the bench is the next best thing since sliced bread, then get brought to the ground with a brutal reality check.

Going back to Sarfraz right now will be suicidal say the least, he is a washed up cricketer.

Washed up cricketer?

He was recently our top run scorer vs NZ and saved us from another humiliating home series loss. Sarfraz is anything but washed up.

His form with the bat has been brilliant, his captaincy for Karachi was spot on. The truth is Sarfraz’s career is seeing a resurgence and all you Rizwan fans are petrified

 

[mominsaigol]

You've been here long enough to know this topic has been discussed to death. Arguments on both side are clear and on record.

They are not clear and on record. I read every single argument lol and I remember pur argument.

You didn't argue against me, you just told me todtop disrespecting our legends with zero context as to why?

Then when we got onto discussing, many of your claims were unfounded. Like when I showed umar akmal's stats at no 3 compared to shafiq's odi stats at 3 and why it made no sense to be discarded, all you said was

" But shafiq was oozing with talent"

^^ Like bro, this is an argument of emotion and clearly a fallacious argument.

No one counter argues, they just get defensive and speak from emotions and make unfounded claims in general.

Their isn't any counter argument because people are incapable of counter arguing since none of those claims are facts and are all debunkable by actual facts.

 

[mominsaigol]

Rizwan is the best player for PAK in this WC by some margin - without him, PAK would have been hanging on one win against BD. He was instrumental for the counter attack against Dutch from 38/3 (without him at other end, Saud in his comeback game,!wont have lasted long), and played an epic against SRL.

May not be good choice for Captaincy for his age (& I hate WK captaining), but he is the best white ball batsman for PAK in recent times, if not overall the best player.

He failed 4 games in a row against semi decent bowling, his only score is against the most toothless bowling attack.

Saud scored a 50 while playing out of position against a quality attack.

Fakhar came back, scored an 81 and already has hit more sixes then anyone else in our spineless squad.

Rizzu has runs cause he's occupying no 4 and is lucky babar and imam are more toothless then he is lol. Of course he's gonna outscored based of batting no

 

[MMHS]

And, this is very surprising for me - few years back, guy was batting at 30/95+ sort of stats and he was (still is) comfortably better WK than Sarfraz… still I believe I was among very few advocating for him.

Since then, guy has flourished in every aspect of the white ball game - one of the most consistent T20 openers around, a solid No. 4 for ODI & I am sure still the best gloves-man from PAK - as I check, his Test, ODI & T20 batting stats stand as of now:

39.52 (2 100s, 8 50s of 44 innings)
40.23/90.23 (2052 ODI runs, 3/13 100/50) and
49.07/127.30 (2797 T20I runs, 1/25 100/50)

For a regular WK, his Test stats are excellent; ODI stats from number 4 is even better and T20 stats overall is outstanding (as opener it’s among very best in world: 57+/130+ !!!)

Yes, May be a bit stat padding for the “ranking booster” games, but everyone in PAK team is playing same opponents, in same conditions.

I’m afraid, if the future plan in thought with minus Rizwan, it’ll hurt PCT badly. But, he should never be made captain, neither should be part of any decision making - including team selection…. up to DRS reviews.

 

[Usman Chadda]

so what your suggesting is stick to Rizwan until he's 40+ and not try different options for betterment of Pakistani cricket
just because Rizwan has won you few games vs d string bowling attack

Why go to such extremes? Rizwan doing well that hard to accept for some of you lot? He has been the most polarizing figure in Pakistan cricket for a while now, and it’s increasingly obvious why that is.

Till the time Rizwan is churning out decent performances in LOI cricket, he keeps his place until someone better comes along.

Playing Sarfraz in LOI cricket will be as good as wasting a spot.

 

[mominsaigol]

Since no one has actually addressed the arguments in the post, and will hide behind topic is done to death excuse, I'll pull in some more debunks.

1) Misbah rescued our team from spot fixing

He didn't, Shahid afridi did. He turned us into a strong 2011 unit to the point India acknowledged Pakistan as the strongest team they faced, stronger then Sri lanka as finalists even.

Misbah through 2013-2015 turned Pakistan into a joke.

2) Misbah was playing with a nothing team, it wasnt his fault

2013 Ct was his team, his call, all his doing, He wanted imran farhat as an opener, he wanted umar Amin a debutant as a vc and shafiq at 3, all of ct was his team. After his humiliating defeat, Afridi was brought back and we won against India 2014 Asia cup under afridi's tutelage for that very game.

2014 and 2017 are the only times we've beaten India at full strength. Rest were all either in transition stages or when they were facing injury concerns.

3) Rizwan has played match winning innings

so has shehzad, Nasir jamshed and a million other cricketers as give a failure 100+ games they'll succeed eventually.

Rizwan in 2021 cost us the semi final by taking 10 overs to get his 67 and coat us 30 runs short against aus. He also crippled the rr against England in the final as he and Babar collectively took a millenia to get a nothing score and be dismissed early on.

He played a match losing 55 of 49 against Sri Lanka chasing 159 as Sri lanka started with 11 wides on the board before the first ball was even bowled.

He cost us against Zimbabwe by taking an Eternity to get to 15 runs of 14 and then getting dismissed.

In test he cost us frequently during the mz series before he was replaced by someone who won that series. Not saying sarfi is a goat, just stating what happened that's all.

In odi he vanishes through thr Asia cup and world cup failing dot on the trot for games but only succeeds during Sri Lankans toothless bowling.

Bro even Ahmed shehzad contributed to a match winning 100 against Bangladesh and unar akmla made a 102 from a collapsed position against afg.

Toothless or not, Sri Lanka innings was solid, so was the 10mwicket win over India, it doesn't change the fact he has more match losing innings then winning.

Had he been dismissed it would be fine. He wasn't dismissed, he gets dismissed after crippling the rr due to a spineless approach. Big difference.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Where does the op mention sarfraz beyond the ct 2017 win, where does it mention to bring sarfi back? Or even remotely imply it?

"Was Instrumental in our two initial wins"

First of this mentality is the problem. Give someone 100+ games and eventually they'll end up performing once or 2x.

Ahmed shehzad is a , but he and fawad alam was instrumental in semi final against Bangladesh in Asia cup 2014 as he scored a 100.

Umar akmal is seen as a Crybaby but he scored a 102 amd won against afghanistan from a collapse position.

Sri lankan bowling attack was beyond toothless but fair enough, rizzu performed and we won. 2021 wc we also won against India by 10 wickets.

But in these games, take away minnow bashing or d string bashing, how many games has rizzu won us? Be 100% honest? Just one against India in 2021.

Shall I count how many games we LOST BECAUSE OF HIM?

- Asia cup 2022 final we lost because of his molasses 50 chasing down 159 as Sri lanka started off with 11 wides before the first ball was bowled.

- WC 2022 final because he took nearly 3 overs to make 15 runs and when he got put, he left us in a crippled position so we scamppered to 137

- WC 2021 Seminfinal: Another slow as molasses 67 which cost us, Nearly 10 overs he took to get it, causing us to be 30 runs short of the initial target

- WC 2022 against Zimbabwe took another 3 overs to get to 14 which again put us in a crippled state.

^^ These were all crucial tournament games. And rizzu has what? One or maybe 2 if you count nz semi final performance to boot?

Shall I count his odi performance as well? It would make sense if he got dismissed. But he doesn't even get dismissed properly, when he gets out, the rr is often too high for any batter to come in and achieve. 99% of the time he gets out, Pakistan loses because the rr isn't possible to catch up.

Not bothered to respond to all those defeats chalked up to one individual, but you should check Rizwan’s stats this World Cup and then talk about the run-rate.

The guy made 131 unbeaten in a record run chase in a World Cup, and we had a thread here about Sarfraz’s 45 against South Africa on the same day lol.

 

[mominsaigol]

Why go to such extremes? Rizwan doing well that hard to accept for some of you lot? He has been the most polarizing figure in Pakistan cricket for a while now, and it’s increasingly obvious why that is.

Till the time Rizwan is churning out decent performances in LOI cricket, he keeps his place until someone better comes along.

Playing Sarfraz in LOI cricket will be as good as wasting a spot.

Read what I said about how many match crunch losing innings he's played.

People seem to have amnesia over it. He's had 100+ games, performing in 4 good odi games through a 4+ year period and 3 good t20 games through a 3+ year period means nothing when he has over 6 match losing crippling rr innings in just 2 world cups alone

 

[mominsaigol]

Not bothered to respond to all those defeats chalked up to one individual, but you should check Rizwan’s stats this World Cup and then talk about the run-rate.

The guy made 131 unbeaten in a record run chase in a World Cup, and we had a thread here about Sarfraz’s 45 against South Africa on the same day lol.

Their chalked to one individual as it was a t20 and he literally played nearly 49% of the deliveries whereas the rest played 51%. That Sri lanka Asia cup game as well as the aus sf game was easy picking, and it's 110% his fault.

The sarfi thread is a troll thread and I clearly said, why ate you bringing sarfraz into this? Who brought sarfi? Wasn't my argument lol.

That 131 is a toothless bowling attack but it's a good innings. Regardless same goes for other failures like shehzad, Nasir jamshed etc.

The guy has very few good innings all against toothless bowling attacks in odi, and only one good innings against a quality bowling attack in t20.

I already named the t20 games. I can name dozen of odi games where he's been solely responsible for the defeat.

You're also forgetting he failed 4 games dot on the trott after Sri lanka because those attacks were semi decent to good. Fakhar already has hit more sixes and batted at a higher sr deapite barely playing much.

The whole no 4 and opening In t20 is costly.

And your t20 point doesn't even make sense, he's an opener, he's suppose to set the stage, if he cripples the rr, how is he not responsible?

 

[Nasty Naz]

Misbah and Rizwan live rent free in some minds. They are the two of the most clean, sane and respectable cricketers we have produced in recent times yet for some they are the bane of Pakistan cricket. Thankless lot honestly, can never be proud of our heroes.

It is really strange to be honest. You can dislike Misbah for his approach where he ate up a lot of dots before hitting big at the end but he was quite successful at it and sadly, he ended up coaching some of least talented teams Pakistan have ever produced. All the young talented players like Shehzad/Akmal/Shafiq/Jamshed were all busts and bowlers were utterly mediocre outside of pre-injury Junaid Khan and Ajmal bowling out of his mind. Still, he led the team to being #1 in Tests, beat India in India against all the odds, beat NZ in NZ despite losing Amir/Asif/Butt, humiliated Australia in Tests in UAE (a huge rarity for Pakistan to pull that off), some epic chases vs SL, first ODI series win in SA. Although the Test batting was quite strong, Pakistan batting lineup in ODI's & T20's at the time were completely rubbish.

As for Rizwan, he will end up being the best WK in Pakistan's history. Maybe people will like Sarfraz more for his CT win but outside of the SL match where he was dropped like 3-4 times, he didn't do much with his batting. His captaincy was good which helped the team win but overall, he was a so-so batsmen in ODI's and really solid in Tests in Asian conditions but cannot bat in SENA at all. Rizwan across the formats has been quite strong. He is not a perfect player by any means but easily one of the better players Pakistan have at the moment and probably the best WK Pakistan has ever produced.

As for the thread, no Pakistan are not headed into the dark days. The core players are still fairly young for the most part, there is talented upcoming players. The results in recent years for the most part has been good outside of Tests too. Pakistan likely would have made semi's in 2019 if not for SL washed out match. Finals in Asia Cup, semi's in 21 WC, finals in 22 WC. Granted they didn't win but it is pretty good Pakistan is doing that. They just need to find a way to get over the hump and win. Winning is not easy either, just look at NZ and how many semi's/finals they've been in without any WC win to show for it. The approach & mindset however needs to see a large shift.

 

[mominsaigol]

Not bothered to respond to all those defeats chalked up to one individual, but you should check Rizwan’s stats this World Cup and then talk about the run-rate.

The guy made 131 unbeaten in a record run chase in a World Cup, and we had a thread here about Sarfraz’s 45 against South Africa on the same day lol.

"You should check rizzu's stats this wc and then talk about rr"

Stat has fallen to a 67 after 4 failures despite one 131. Secondly what rr, Pakistan rr is in the negatives .

 

[Usman Chadda]

Their chalked to one individual as it was a t20 and he literally played nearly 49% of the deliveries whereas the rest played 51%. That Sri lanka Asia cup game as well as the aus sf game was easy picking, and it's 110% his fault.

The sarfi thread is a troll thread and I clearly said, why ate you bringing sarfraz into this? Who brought sarfi? Wasn't my argument lol.

That 131 is a toothless bowling attack but it's a good innings. Regardless same goes for other failures like shehzad, Nasir jamshed etc.

The guy has very few good innings all against toothless bowling attacks in odi, and only one good innings against a quality bowling attack in t20.

I already named the t20 games. I can name dozen of odi games where he's been solely responsible for the defeat.

You're also forgetting he failed 4 games dot on the trott after Sri lanka because those attacks were semi decent to good. Fakhar already has hit more sixes and batted at a higher sr deapite barely playing much.

The whole no 4 and opening In t20 is costly.

And your t20 point doesn't even make sense, he's an opener, he's suppose to set the stage, if he cripples the rr, how is he not responsible?

Because there were ten other players in those games, and you are criticizing Rizwan during an ODI World Cup based on your perception of him as a failed T20 batsmen. Atleast wait till June before you get on this tirade.

Rizwan has been one of the only few positives we have had this World Cup. Leading run-scorer from our team, batting at number four. An immense knock, regardless of the bowling attack, chasing a mammoth total in a record chase.

Deserves respect, not hate. He is not the problem with our team, at the moment anyway.

 

[mominsaigol]

It is really strange to be honest. You can dislike Misbah for his approach where he ate up a lot of dots before hitting big at the end but he was quite successful at it and sadly, he ended up coaching some of least talented teams Pakistan have ever produced. All the young talented players like Shehzad/Akmal/Shafiq/Jamshed were all busts and bowlers were utterly mediocre outside of pre-injury Junaid Khan and Ajmal bowling out of his mind. Still, he led the team to being #1 in Tests, beat India in India against all the odds, beat NZ in NZ despite losing Amir/Asif/Butt, humiliated Australia in Tests in UAE (a huge rarity for Pakistan to pull that off), some epic chases vs SL, first ODI series win in SA. Although the Test batting was quite strong, Pakistan batting lineup in ODI's & T20's at the time were completely rubbish.

As for Rizwan, he will end up being the best WK in Pakistan's history. Maybe people will like Sarfraz more for his CT win but outside of the SL match where he was dropped like 3-4 times, he didn't do much with his batting. His captaincy was good which helped the team win but overall, he was a so-so batsmen in ODI's and really solid in Tests in Asian conditions but cannot bat in SENA at all. Rizwan across the formats has been quite strong. He is not a perfect player by any means but easily one of the better players Pakistan have at the moment and probably the best WK Pakistan has ever produced.

As for the thread, no Pakistan are not headed into the dark days. The core players are still fairly young for the most part, there is talented upcoming players. The results in recent years for the most part has been good outside of Tests too. Pakistan likely would have made semi's in 2019 if not for SL washed out match. Finals in Asia Cup, semi's in 21 WC, finals in 22 WC. Granted they didn't win but it is pretty good Pakistan is doing that. They just need to find a way to get over the hump and win. Winning is not easy either, just look at NZ and how many semi's/finals they've been in without any WC win to show for it. The approach & mindset however needs to see a large shift.

This couldn't be further from the truth?

He didn't make any changes to test, and after no 1 he also deteorited the test side. The test side was already built, only shafiq was an investment that paid off. Yk, Azhar and misbah trio was set.

If anything he ruined the test opening by having horrible openers. Sarfi wasn't even his decision for test lol, he wanted adnan akmal .

He was literally playing with an atg and the 2nd best test bat and only one capable of scoring 300+ runs besides yk, and his bowlers were also set, yasir Shah was the 2nd best investment.

In odi ct 2013 was completly his team. He wanted said talent lol. All his doing and all his beliefs.

His slow philosophy didn't work, it crippled the rr.

We will see after this cup ig about dark days lol

 

[mominsaigol]

Because there were ten other players in those games, and you are criticizing Rizwan during an ODI World Cup based on your perception of him as a failed T20 batsmen. Atleast wait till June before you get on this tirade.

Rizwan has been one of the only few positives we have had this World Cup. Leading run-scorer from our team, batting at number four. An immense knock, regardless of the bowling attack, chasing a mammoth total in a record chase.

Deserves respect, not hate. He is not the problem with our team, at the moment anyway.

It's a t20, he's an opener, in those games he batted 50% of the deliveries whereas every other bat combined batted the remaining 50%. He was set and on strike, whereas new batters obviously can't get going atriaght away.

A 55 of 49 when chasing 159 is match losing in a t20 unless you have a butler or devillers level partner on the other side. That's 8 overs of going run a ball meaning 102 is needed by the rest of the new set batsmen to chase of 71 balls. You want new batters at the crease to go at an 8.6 rr while rizzu has fun?

He's the leading run scorer because every other batsmen bats way too low to outscore him and the only other batters > Him are Abdullah who's a debutant and the 2nd highest scorer, you don't expect a debutant to outscore an established batter. And imam and Babar who always get exposed during tournament cuts anyway. Obviously he'll have more scores and runs then them. Imam and Babar ain't putscoring anyone and Abdullah is new.

Also his avg is consistently going down and down and down after that 131 due to a string of succesful failures one after the other. He's been outperformed by the lower order every time they actually show themselves and get a chance to bat.

Would you like me to highlight his odi games?

 

[mominsaigol]

To this date, what I don't understand is, why is their a rizzu and misbah Cult in the first place?

This cult has such a victim mentality, like you're fanboying created this Cult, it was bound to be met with an equal and opposite reaction.

And out of all the people you could choose to famboy, You don't fanboy someone like fakhar (An inconsistent bat, but one with actual match winning scores) but choose to fan boy the 2 most annoying batsmen of the past decade? Misbah and rizwan?

 

[PakPremi]

I’m surprised Rizwan gets as much stick as he does from some Pakistani fans. He may not be a world beater yet, but he is already a world class player with (I feel) a high ceiling.

This is not relevant but from his behaviour he is also a great ambassador for his country and the sport.

More criticism should be directed at with the system, the processes.

You are not the only one who is surprised. I am too as he is a great ambassador for Pakistan in his conduct and a sportsman one should be proud of as he is always fighting out in the field batting or wicketkeeping. Funny the op keeps blaming him for individual games forgetting that cricket is played with 11 players. If the batting did not deliver in a particular match then how is it just Rizwan's fault alone?
Ps: I have not bothered read the full thread but felt obliged to comment against victimisation of the warrior.

 

[PakPremi]

Because there were ten other players in those games, and you are criticizing Rizwan during an ODI World Cup based on your perception of him as a failed T20 batsmen. Atleast wait till June before you get on this tirade.

Rizwan has been one of the only few positives we have had this World Cup. Leading run-scorer from our team, batting at number four. An immense knock, regardless of the bowling attack, chasing a mammoth total in a record chase.

Deserves respect, not hate. He is not the problem with our team, at the moment anyway.

You are wrong Rizwan was batting both sides the other batsmen were there only to help Rizwan complete run between wickets.

 

[mominsaigol]

You are not the only one who is surprised. I am too as he is a great ambassador for Pakistan in his conduct and a sportsman one should be proud of as he is always fighting out in the field batting or wicketkeeping. Funny the op keeps blaming him for individual games forgetting that cricket is played with 11 players. If the batting did not deliver in a particular match then how is it just Rizwan's fault alone?
Ps: I have not bothered read the full thread but felt obliged to comment against victimisation of the warrior.

Then maybe you should read the full thread cause their is yet to be an actual counter argument presented.

As for the whole 11 players, the point was made regarding the Asia cup final.

We were chasing 170, rizwan made 55 of 49 which is 8 overs of batting and nearly 40% of the entire innings to himself as an opener where everyone else had the reminding 60% Combined.

he crippled the rr by expecting the entire team to go at 9.6 runs an over when he was theset batsmen, not once did he take any risks depsite the game even going to 60 of 24 at one point. How exactly is it not his fault?

Shall I talk about other matches?

 

[Unbiased-Fan]

Mark my words, Pakistan will be a quality team in next 5 to 7 years.

Though Babar Azam is an overrated and soft player, he is good player to idol instead of brainless sloggers like Shahid Afridi.
We can already see how Babar is inspiring so many young batman from Pakistan to play like him.

Shaheen Afridi is a world class player and a certain future Hall of famer.

Mohammad Rizwan is probably the best ever wicketkeeper by the Pakistan.

Naseem Shah is a once in a generation talent. He can be a country great if handled properly.

Their are many world class and young players like Shafique, Fakhar and Shakeel who will take Pakistan to future glory.

 

[mominsaigol]

Mark my words, Pakistan will be a quality team in next 5 to 7 years.

Though Babar Azam is an overrated and soft player, he is good player to idol instead of brainless sloggers like Shahid Afridi.
We can already see how Babar is inspiring so many young batman from Pakistan to play like him.

Shaheen Afridi is a world class player and a certain future Hall of famer.

Mohammad Rizwan is probably the best ever wicketkeeper by the Pakistan.

Naseem Shah is a once in a generation talent. He can be a country great if handled properly.

Their are many world class and young players like Shafique, Fakhar and Shakeel who will take Pakistan to future glory.

The talent is their, the management is messing it up.

- First of afridi was a bowler who could slog, not a pure batsmen, he started as a bat bit left it for bowling. And afridi was a class bowler, Babar is a pure bat, their not comparable.

Afridi literally has 7 wickets for 19 which is the 2nd best figures in a single odi only behind Murli's 8 wicket haul in a single game.

- Second Babar's inspiration is what's killing the team. Fakhar and Abdullah got Pakistan to a match winning start, Fakhar especially with a 110 sr before his departure. Babar came and ruined it with 9 of 16 lol.

- Shaheen I don't have an opinion on yet.

- Sure buddy, Rizwan Zindabad.

- Naseem is no where close to being once in a generational talent. Abide by your username and control your expectations, he's a good bowler and a good talent but he's never reaching bumrah or shami Level heights, He isn't even better then tournament level wahab who bowled to Watson, De villers and atg 2011 India or 2017/ prime president spot fixing amir.

- Fakhar isn't young lol, Shafiq and shakeel are good but cool it on the glory hype atm. We will see if they bloom, control expectations but shakeel and Abdullah are good yes

 

[Cricket Warrior]

1 bad tournament can't bring them into the dark ages for sure.

That's true its a bad time for them but certainly they can come back in this tournament.

 

[MMHS]

@mominsaigol: regarding Misbah, I think his biggest mistake was to come up in the order and try to emulate Inzi there. To be honest, Inzi was also a poor starter (hence when he was out of form, he was a disaster), but a set Inzi was several class apart, Misbah had his upper limit measured. But, still he was the best PAK captain since Wasim May be, a perfect gentleman & an honest guy who was instrumental in regaining respect for PCT.

Don’t want to waste time on searching 6-7 years old posts, but several times I suggested that Misbah should drop down to 6 or even at 7 and play to his strengths. He had a career strike rate over 95 till like 2008/9, when he used to come behind MoYo, YK, Inzi and gone after the bowling instantly - maintained a good average as well for remaining not outs. His strength wasn’t 360 manoeuvring, and he didn’t have many shots of back-foot; hence teams always kept him limited during middle overs - being no. 4 batsman, he couldn’t throw bat either, therefore struggled in middle order, stagnating the scoring. Something very similar was YK - for few innings he batted at 6, and his SR was excellent there. And, Misbah’s rigidity tk stick to no. 4 actually cost PCT another way - it forced two natural stroke makers down the Oder at 5/6/7 and both were confused about their roles - couldn’t balance between attack & defence. Ideally, Misbah should have dropped down and Maqsood, Omar (Akmal) and Malik should have been 3/4/5, with MoHa opening and Afridi playing as floater.

One thing I never do is judge player based on stats, without looking at the batting position. Michel Bevan is an ATG OFI player, because Aussies understood his game, kept him at 6, sometimes 7. His game was based on brilliant placing and running couples, occasionally hitting boundaries - what made Bevan almost unstoppable was his productivity - he would score 80-90% balls, may not be many boundaries. PAK thought process with his 60+ average (those days!!!) would have been to put him at 3/4 - with his weakness against short & moving ball, and 5/6 men in ring he would have lost his place in a year or two.

Similarly, what I see is almost everyone is expecting to fix something that’s not broken. Rizwan is playing exceptional game for an ODI No. 4 - every team including India & Australia needs some one solid in middle - SAF doesn’t have one hence any chase they wet pants. If there is not enough head start, that’s because of 1-2-3; not for # 4. It’s good to have an AdV at four, but for mare mortals, show me one no. 4 that bats at 110 SR - Root, Labus, Will, Iyer?

Rizwan is playing his game perfectly- I actually give opposite logic to your point: with or without Rizwan, these days PAK will not compete in most games against top 5 sides, but the four games they wete expected to win - he was instrumental in three (wasn’t required much against us), he failed against AFGs - PAK lost a pathetic game. Another one PAK could have won, didn’t, because instead of playing to his strength, Rizwan tried to hit out of trouble against SAF & PAK ended 30 short of what was possible with a typical 80 ball 70 from Rizwan; SAF by the narrowest of margins.

I read your post, but I believe any strategy should be based on the reality - Rizwan doesn’t bat behind Rohit Sharma, Warner, Head, Kock or Conway…. And he doesn’t come at 170/2 within 30 overs that he is slowing down the tempo. For PCT, May be time now to open with Babar/FZ, Abdullah at 3 (because Babar can take advantage of 9 men in Ron for 10 overs, Abdullah isn’t a boundary hitter), Riz at 4. Abdullah can charge his tempo based on the start given by openers, but Rizwan is fine at 4. In fact, May be he can stop keeping in white ball game and Haris takes over the gloves - this fake allrounders like Aga or Nawaz won’t contribute much when chips are down.

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

At management level its starting to get disorganised again and nepotism is creeping back.

Stagnation is the real killer, another 5 years of this and there will be no one to replace the current crop of players and then the real demise will happen.

 

[mominsaigol]

@mominsaigol: regarding Misbah, I think his biggest mistake was to come up in the order and try to emulate Inzi there. To be honest, Inzi was also a poor starter (hence when he was out of form, he was a disaster), but a set Inzi was several class apart, Misbah had his upper limit measured. But, still he was the best PAK captain since Wasim May be, a perfect gentleman & an honest guy who was instrumental in regaining respect for PCT.

Don’t want to waste time on searching 6-7 years old posts, but several times I suggested that Misbah should drop down to 6 or even at 7 and play to his strengths. He had a career strike rate over 95 till like 2008/9, when he used to come behind MoYo, YK, Inzi and gone after the bowling instantly - maintained a good average as well for remaining not outs. His strength wasn’t 360 manoeuvring, and he didn’t have many shots of back-foot; hence teams always kept him limited during middle overs - being no. 4 batsman, he couldn’t throw bat either, therefore struggled in middle order, stagnating the scoring. Something very similar was YK - for few innings he batted at 6, and his SR was excellent there. And, Misbah’s rigidity tk stick to no. 4 actually cost PCT another way - it forced two natural stroke makers down the Oder at 5/6/7 and both were confused about their roles - couldn’t balance between attack & defence. Ideally, Misbah should have dropped down and Maqsood, Omar (Akmal) and Malik should have been 3/4/5, with MoHa opening and Afridi playing as floater.

One thing I never do is judge player based on stats, without looking at the batting position. Michel Bevan is an ATG OFI player, because Aussies understood his game, kept him at 6, sometimes 7. His game was based on brilliant placing and running couples, occasionally hitting boundaries - what made Bevan almost unstoppable was his productivity - he would score 80-90% balls, may not be many boundaries. PAK thought process with his 60+ average (those days!!!) would have been to put him at 3/4 - with his weakness against short & moving ball, and 5/6 men in ring he would have lost his place in a year or two.

Similarly, what I see is almost everyone is expecting to fix something that’s not broken. Rizwan is playing exceptional game for an ODI No. 4 - every team including India & Australia needs some one solid in middle - SAF doesn’t have one hence any chase they wet pants. If there is not enough head start, that’s because of 1-2-3; not for # 4. It’s good to have an AdV at four, but for mare mortals, show me one no. 4 that bats at 110 SR - Root, Labus, Will, Iyer?

Rizwan is playing his game perfectly- I actually give opposite logic to your point: with or without Rizwan, these days PAK will not compete in most games against top 5 sides, but the four games they wete expected to win - he was instrumental in three (wasn’t required much against us), he failed against AFGs - PAK lost a pathetic game. Another one PAK could have won, didn’t, because instead of playing to his strength, Rizwan tried to hit out of trouble against SAF & PAK ended 30 short of what was possible with a typical 80 ball 70 from Rizwan; SAF by the narrowest of margins.

I read your post, but I believe any strategy should be based on the reality - Rizwan doesn’t bat behind Rohit Sharma, Warner, Head, Kock or Conway…. And he doesn’t come at 170/2 within 30 overs that he is slowing down the tempo. For PCT, May be time now to open with Babar/FZ, Abdullah at 3 (because Babar can take advantage of 9 men in Ron for 10 overs, Abdullah isn’t a boundary hitter), Riz at 4. Abdullah can charge his tempo based on the start given by openers, but Rizwan is fine at 4. In fact, May be he can stop keeping in white ball game and Haris takes over the gloves - this fake allrounders like Aga or Nawaz won’t contribute much when chips are down.

You're the only poster who actually presents counter arguments and hasn't gone on an emotional sentimental rollecoaster so you deserve fill respect to be addressed professionally.

"regarding Misbah, I think his biggest mistake was to come up in the order and try to emulate Inzi there. To be honest, Inzi was also a poor starter (hence when he was out of form, he was a disaster), but a set Inzi was several class apart, Misbah had his upper limit measured. But, still he was the best PAK captain since Wasim May be, a perfect gentleman & an honest guy who was instrumental in regaining respect for PCT. "

he is best captain based on what exactly? What metric are you using? If its test, then the argument holds a bit of weight? But since you mentioned inzi and moving up, if it's odi , their various loop holes round address. But what is the metric of bmhim being the best since wasim?

As for your rizzu point, You're not understanding. Bevan batted for the team, Rizwan plays for himself and for fan perception

This guy told imad waseem who was striking at 150+ to take a single so he can get his t20 century which he didn't do.

In t20 cups he often gets the rr to exceed 9 and tells other batsmen to catch up depaite them being new at the crease. His match losing innings various times is the reason for that.

Truth is rizzu has had 100+ innings, the others have not cause he blocks pathways rather then provides them. It takes years to groom someone lol, and they've been players who've shown way more promise early on in their careers then rizzu did back in 2015 when he first burst on to the scene.

He only performs against toothless bowling but fails 95% of the time against semindecent attacks.

Without rizzu, the no 4 slot opens up and allows for more talented batsmen like saud and tayyab to develop. They won't surpass him right away but they will eventually because their ceilings at debut are >>>>> Rizzu's on debut.

Concessions need to be made to keep rizzu in the squad. Our squad does not fail without rizzu, he causes it to fail.

Babar and rizwan didn't do jack for an entire tournament and we still reached the final due to rising players like haris.

Saim ayub, tayyab, Saud, give them 100+ games and their easily surpassing rizzu, the bar ain't high.

Rizzu is more crucial match losing innings them he has match winning innings. This was the same issue with Ahmed shehzad yet for some reason shehzad is hated but rizzu is loved? Make no sense beyond his misbah connections.

Any fan if Misbah Is an auto fan of rizzu because of their connections and advocating for each other.

Also about misbah's batting. I've seen his batting. He was the one who was being a Crybaby about no 4 just like rizzu.

A good captain doesn't cry about their favourite positions, they put the team first over themselves.

Sarfi did it in ct final, YK did it by removing himself from no 3 and allowing afridi to bat and won 2019, Imran did it by passing over his bowling reigns to wasim akram.

A good captain knows what's best for his team, misbah did what was best for himself lol.

 

[mominsaigol]

1 bad tournament can't bring them into the dark ages for sure.

That's true its a bad time for them but certainly they can come back in this tournament.

Bruh, we've been in the dark ages since 2021.

It's just we keep finding ways to fluke into things, which is how we fluked into the quaternary finals in 2015 lol.

Flukes as in we normally lose 50 to 60% of pur matches and win against weak or chocker teams but other teams mess up and come forward.

2017, 1992, and 2009 were different. Mindset and mentality were their deapite a bit of luck.

Currently it's entirely reliant on luck

 

[hitthestump]

It is starting to get boring seeing Rizwan’s name bleated in every thread.

It was mildly humourous to observe how he lived rent free in a few peoples heads but 4 years later it is getting very sad now.

I don’t even know what the latest slander is. He’s a puppet master now? Or something? Either way he has clearly sent some people absolutely loopy.

At the end of the day you can fantasise about his downfall but that’s all it’ll be. Rizwan is here to stay. He won already. He beat the doubters and slapped them into shadow realm.

Accept it or keep sending yourself to the loony bin with random lists and random character assassinations. Nobody cares anymore.

 

[Stewie]

Pakistani fans always have a pessimistic view of everything. They are never happy. Considering how our country is functioning, the chaos, bad management, lack of professionalism, etc. it’s a miracle our team performs decently and by decently of course I mean consistently hovering between average and above average.

The Misbah haters have some merit but I hope you realize where we were post spot fixing. And under him our test team did very well.

There is always one thing or another to cry about. I suspect regionalism has a lot to do with it.

 

[mominsaigol]

It is starting to get boring seeing Rizwan’s name bleated in every thread.

It was mildly humourous to observe how he lived rent free in a few peoples heads but 4 years later it is getting very sad now.

I don’t even know what the latest slander is. He’s a puppet master now? Or something? Either way he has clearly sent some people absolutely loopy.

At the end of the day you can fantasise about his downfall but that’s all it’ll be. Rizwan is here to stay. He won already. He beat the doubters and slapped them into shadow realm.

Accept it or keep sending yourself to the loony bin with random lists and random character assassinations. Nobody cares anymore.

"It is starting to get boring seeing Rizwan’s name bleated in every thread."

Not really no, he'll be the biggest talking point post wc 2023. It's clear he's the next captain if babar loses tmr, if babar wins, amd make semi's, then idk.

"I don’t even know what the latest slander is. He’s a puppet master now? Or something? Either way he has clearly sent some people absolutely loopy."

he's the director of a talent management company that's responsible for fast tracking nawaz etc.

"At the end of the day you can fantasise about his downfall but that’s all it’ll be. Rizwan is here to stay. He won already. He beat the doubters and slapped them into shadow realm."

He didn't slap anyone, after the Sri lanka game he failed 4 games on the dot which only cemented further doubt on him only being a glorified minnow accumulator since the Sri lankan attack that he faced lacked bowlers like mathews etc. It was the weakest attack of the tourney.

Secondly ex cricketers themselves mock him. Rizzu isn't helping his case by selfishly hogging no 4 slot, amd he's succeded by playing 100+ games and he'll obv perform in some of them.

Point he has more match losing innings then match winning as I pointed out.

You can read those comments or you can choose not to, upto you

People need to understand, Babar, Shadab, Sheddy, and rizzu are golden boys, with babar, Rizwan and shafab at the top list aka top 3 golden boys, their bound to talk and share retrospects even if said retrospects come of as hate.

Try seeing other perspectives as well before shutting things off, you might get more insight. Both sides are on the other spectrum. Rizwan's current case isn't helping.

But we'll see, this thread will either age very very very poorly and ill be eating myself, or very very very successfully..

 

[emranabbas]

Why go to such extremes? Rizwan doing well that hard to accept for some of you lot? He has been the most polarizing figure in Pakistan cricket for a while now, and it’s increasingly obvious why that is.

Till the time Rizwan is churning out decent performances in LOI cricket, he keeps his place until someone better comes along.

Playing Sarfraz in LOI cricket will be as good as wasting a spot.

these are Rizwan's away performances vs top 5 teams I don't know in what world you call them decent

Records type batting analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]

Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Host country Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Ordered by default (ascending)

Overall Stats

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	2015-2023	72	66	15	2052	131*	40.23	2274	90.23	3	13	2	178	21	Profile
filtered	2016-2023	19	18	3	381	74	25.40	453	84.10	0	1	1	41	1

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
v Australia	2017-2023	6	5	1	97	46	24.25	121	80.16	0	0	0	7	0
v England	2016-2021	5	5	1	132	74	33.00	126	104.76	0	1	0	16	0
v India	2023-2023	1	1	0	49	49	49.00	69	71.01	0	0	0	7	0
v New Zealand	2016-2016	1	1	0	16	16	16.00	18	88.88	0	0	0	1	0
v South Africa	2019-2023	6	6	1	87	40	17.40	119	73.10	0	0	1	10	1

By Year

year 2016		3	3	1	56	34*	28.00	66	84.84	0	0	0	5	0
year 2017		5	4	1	51	21	17.00	81	62.96	0	0	0	2	0
year 2019		2	2	1	14	10	14.00	31	45.16	0	0	0	2	0
year 2021		6	6	0	134	74	22.33	139	96.40	0	1	1	16	0
year 2023		3	3	0	126	49	42.00	136	92.64	0	0	0	16	1

if we compare compare him to all our other batsmen in the last 10 years this is what we get

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team Pakistan

Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
Misbah-ul-Haq	2013-2015	8	8	1	373	79*	53.28	508	73.42	0	4	0	26	8
Babar Azam	2016-2023	45	45	4	2009	158	49.00	2258	88.97	5	11	2	213	17
Imad Wasim	2016-2019	25	18	8	468	63*	46.80	396	118.18	0	2	1	48	8
Fakhar Zaman	2017-2021	28	28	1	1235	193	45.74	1315	93.91	4	6	2	135	31
Imam-ul-Haq	2018-2023	24	24	2	981	151	44.59	1210	81.07	2	7	1	96	6
Haris Sohail	2015-2019	11	11	1	445	89	44.50	519	85.74	0	4	0	43	6
Mohammad Hasnain	2019-2021	4	2	1	40	28	40.00	22	181.81	0	0	0	7	1
Sarfaraz Ahmed	2015-2021	34	30	6	903	105	37.62	987	91.48	1	5	0	71	9
Mohammad Hafeez	2013-2019	33	32	3	1045	86	36.03	1165	89.69	0	10	3	83	31
Sharjeel Khan	2016-2017	10	10	0	350	79	35.00	292	119.86	0	4	1	51	9
Aamer Yamin	2018-2018	1	1	1	32	32*	-	27	118.51	0	0	0	3	1
Abdullah Shafique	2023-2023	3	3	0	93	64	31.00	102	91.17	0	1	0	11	2
Saud Shakeel	2021-2023	6	6	1	152	56	30.40	186	81.72	0	2	0	17	0
Shadab Khan	2017-2023	25	19	6	382	54	29.38	471	81.10	0	2	2	27	8
Ahmed Shehzad	2013-2017	11	11	0	314	102	28.54	458	68.55	1	1	1	33	2
Azhar Ali	2016-2018	17	17	0	473	82	27.82	671	70.49	0	5	2	42	5
Shahid Afridi	2013-2015	7	7	0	182	67	26.00	126	144.44	0	1	0	17	8
Mohammad Rizwan	2016-2023	19	18	3	381	74	25.40	453	84.10	0	1	1	41	1
Shoaib Malik	2016-2019	27	25	3	533	77	24.22	646	82.50	0	1	2	38	11
Asif Ali	2019-2021	9	8	0	182	52	22.75	161	113.04	0	2	0	9	9
Anwar Ali	2013-2016	4	4	1	67	43*	22.33	83	80.72	0	0	0	7	1
Abdur Rehman	2013-2013	1	1	0	22	22	22.00	40	55.00	0	0	0	2	0

its embarrassing that muhammed hasnain has better average than rizwan when playing top teams away anyone can stack up runs at home vs d string bowling attack

 

[Bewal Express]

It is starting to get boring seeing Rizwan’s name bleated in every thread.

It was mildly humourous to observe how he lived rent free in a few peoples heads but 4 years later it is getting very sad now.

I don’t even know what the latest slander is. He’s a puppet master now? Or something? Either way he has clearly sent some people absolutely loopy.

At the end of the day you can fantasise about his downfall but that’s all it’ll be. Rizwan is here to stay. He won already. He beat the doubters and slapped them into shadow realm.

Accept it or keep sending yourself to the loony bin with random lists and random character assassinations. Nobody cares anymore.

Don't you see Riz stroking a cat, and planning all this.

 

[emranabbas]

ahmed shehzad is a better batsmen than rizwan when playing top teams away

 

[Bewal Express]

Bruh, we've been in the dark ages since 2021.

It's just we keep finding ways to fluke into things, which is how we fluked into the quaternary finals in 2015 lol.

Flukes as in we normally lose 50 to 60% of pur matches and win against weak or chocker teams but other teams mess up and come forward.

2017, 1992, and 2009 were different. Mindset and mentality were their deapite a bit of luck.

Currently it's entirely reliant on luck

This period is nowhere as bad as 2010, it's not great but a couple of bowlers and a decent batsman or 2, will paint over the cracks for a while. The real problem is an incompetent board that has no interest in developing structures or talent in PK

 

[mominsaigol]

these are Rizwan's away performances vs top 5 teams I don't know in what world you call them decent

Records type batting analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]

Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Host country Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Ordered by default (ascending)

Overall Stats

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	2015-2023	72	66	15	2052	131*	40.23	2274	90.23	3	13	2	178	21	Profile
filtered	2016-2023	19	18	3	381	74	25.40	453	84.10	0	1	1	41	1

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
v Australia	2017-2023	6	5	1	97	46	24.25	121	80.16	0	0	0	7	0
v England	2016-2021	5	5	1	132	74	33.00	126	104.76	0	1	0	16	0
v India	2023-2023	1	1	0	49	49	49.00	69	71.01	0	0	0	7	0
v New Zealand	2016-2016	1	1	0	16	16	16.00	18	88.88	0	0	0	1	0
v South Africa	2019-2023	6	6	1	87	40	17.40	119	73.10	0	0	1	10	1

By Year

year 2016		3	3	1	56	34*	28.00	66	84.84	0	0	0	5	0
year 2017		5	4	1	51	21	17.00	81	62.96	0	0	0	2	0
year 2019		2	2	1	14	10	14.00	31	45.16	0	0	0	2	0
year 2021		6	6	0	134	74	22.33	139	96.40	0	1	1	16	0
year 2023		3	3	0	126	49	42.00	136	92.64	0	0	0	16	1

if we compare compare him to all our other batsmen in the last 10 years this is what we get

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team Pakistan

Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Host country Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Start of match date greater than or equal to 3 Nov 2013

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
Misbah-ul-Haq	2013-2015	8	8	1	373	79*	53.28	508	73.42	0	4	0	26	8
Babar Azam	2016-2023	45	45	4	2009	158	49.00	2258	88.97	5	11	2	213	17
Imad Wasim	2016-2019	25	18	8	468	63*	46.80	396	118.18	0	2	1	48	8
Fakhar Zaman	2017-2021	28	28	1	1235	193	45.74	1315	93.91	4	6	2	135	31
Imam-ul-Haq	2018-2023	24	24	2	981	151	44.59	1210	81.07	2	7	1	96	6
Haris Sohail	2015-2019	11	11	1	445	89	44.50	519	85.74	0	4	0	43	6
Mohammad Hasnain	2019-2021	4	2	1	40	28	40.00	22	181.81	0	0	0	7	1
Sarfaraz Ahmed	2015-2021	34	30	6	903	105	37.62	987	91.48	1	5	0	71	9
Mohammad Hafeez	2013-2019	33	32	3	1045	86	36.03	1165	89.69	0	10	3	83	31
Sharjeel Khan	2016-2017	10	10	0	350	79	35.00	292	119.86	0	4	1	51	9
Aamer Yamin	2018-2018	1	1	1	32	32*	-	27	118.51	0	0	0	3	1
Abdullah Shafique	2023-2023	3	3	0	93	64	31.00	102	91.17	0	1	0	11	2
Saud Shakeel	2021-2023	6	6	1	152	56	30.40	186	81.72	0	2	0	17	0
Shadab Khan	2017-2023	25	19	6	382	54	29.38	471	81.10	0	2	2	27	8
Ahmed Shehzad	2013-2017	11	11	0	314	102	28.54	458	68.55	1	1	1	33	2
Azhar Ali	2016-2018	17	17	0	473	82	27.82	671	70.49	0	5	2	42	5
Shahid Afridi	2013-2015	7	7	0	182	67	26.00	126	144.44	0	1	0	17	8
Mohammad Rizwan	2016-2023	19	18	3	381	74	25.40	453	84.10	0	1	1	41	1
Shoaib Malik	2016-2019	27	25	3	533	77	24.22	646	82.50	0	1	2	38	11
Asif Ali	2019-2021	9	8	0	182	52	22.75	161	113.04	0	2	0	9	9
Anwar Ali	2013-2016	4	4	1	67	43*	22.33	83	80.72	0	0	0	7	1
Abdur Rehman	2013-2013	1	1	0	22	22	22.00	40	55.00	0	0	0	2	0

its embarrassing that muhammed hasnain has better average than rizwan when playing top teams away anyone can stack up runs at home vs d string bowling attack

They'll ignore your arguments and once again mention his 131 against Sri Lanka and his iconic ending the moqa moqa moment lol

 

[Bewal Express]

ahmed shehzad is a better batsmen than rizwan when playing top teams away

Even Umar Gul according to one poster.

 

[mominsaigol]

Even Umar Gul according to one poster.

He means batsmen who's played multiple innings.

Gul on paper will only look better because of a statical bias, same way babar averages 83 in knock out stage lol due to statical bias

 

[Stewie]

Koi bhai hakoomat theek karnay ka hul bhi bata de phir idher lagey haathon

 

[Bewal Express]

He means batsmen who's played multiple innings.

Gul on paper will only look better because of a statical bias, same way babar averages 83 in knock out stage lol due to statical bias

No he was desperate to prove that Riz isn't a good player, which isn't true and just by comparing the 2, he made himself to look like an absolute tool.

 

[chinaman00]

Just for fun, I asked ChatGPT to explain the reasons behind Pakistan’s consistent failures at major ICC tournaments. Here’s the generated reply. Lol


“The Pakistan cricket team has faced a range of challenges in winning major ICC tournaments. These issues include inconsistent team selection, leading to a lack of stability in the playing XI. There's also been a struggle to find a balance between youth and experience within the squad. Furthermore, the team has often been affected by off-field controversies and management changes that disrupt focus and performance. Additionally, the limited international cricket in Pakistan has impacted the team's exposure and experience, especially in home conditions. Moreover, the domestic cricket structure has been in flux, which affects the pipeline of talent coming through to the international level. These factors, combined with occasional lapses in on-field strategy and execution, have contributed to their struggles in major competitions.”

 

[FastBowlingAllrounder]

Just out of curiosity, may we know the name of this top secret talent management agency that Rizwan and Misbah are heading?

 

[ads101]

I think Rizwan would get more credit if his batting was worse. Then people would actually appreciate his keeping. How many players give Rizwan's total output in the team? Excellent keeping and good batting? On the other hand there are quite a few who are not even giving average in one discipline.

Who exactly is Rizwan competing against? He is the keeper. Yet somehow he is blocking batsmen. Makes no sense. He is batting middle order in ODIs, everyone knows he'd rather open and he's still doing well. Playing 4 instead of 5 is not going to have a huge difference on performance. There are plenty of middle order slots which are there or will open up to play more batsmen. Let's say we play Haris instead. What is the point in the immediate downgrade in keeping and batting, for a guy who has both poor averages in domestic, as well as terrible ones in internationals? There is literally no rush to blood in these guys like Haris and Saim, they're still developing as players and if anything are being rushed in to early quite frankly because people are desperate.

In T20, there have been three batsman who have dominated PSL after PSL. Fakhar, Rizwan and Babar. Two of these currently get their favoured positions as openers. Fakhar on the other hand has failed as an opener an in international T20s in general, hence understandably does not have preference in position over the other two (yet still claims a spot in T20s despite little performance anyway).

Again everyone plays weaker teams. Look at the averages of Yousuf, Inzi and how they're inflated against minnows. Our current batsmen play the same teams and they do not score against the weaker teams nor the stronger ones. You can't just bash one player based on this and then ignore the others. And yes if he is outperforming his peers in the same team, it is difficult to question his place in the side. As automatically there are other less performing players you drop before coming after Rizwan.

The reason why Sarfraz was turfed out in the first place, because at the time of exit he was both one of the worst batsmen in the side, as well as a poor keeper. Rizwan isn't either of those things, even people who don't rate him can't really deny that.

 

[ArabKnight]

I truly hated the darks days of Misbah.

2017-2019 was the best time of Pakistan cricket.

Now it’s dark days of Babar.

What will be next?

 

[topspin]

A wonderful thread and a much needed one particularly for those who're blind to everything that's going on.

It's the second most depressing time to be a Pakistan cricket fan following the dark Misbah era in his stints as captain and coach of the side.

Rizwan has indeed been exposed after the recent revelations. How some of you can still defend him is beyond me. I wonder if those rallying behind Rizwan actually understand the seriousness of his role as a director of a sports management company? Him and Inzamam are business partners who have benefitted from the selection of a select group of players who were clients of theirs. Make no mistake it's a huge deal (pun intended). 2 good innings against Netherlands, Sri Lanka and all of the other "happy memories" of stat padding against weaker bowling attacks doesn't cut it.

We all know Babar is no leader of men and that's why it was obvious he was never going come out as a good captain. I was in disbelief when the likes of Mamoon and everyone else was advocating for him to take over from Sarfraz in 2019. You can see from a million miles away that someone like him can't impose his presence for the benefit of his team nor is he capable of imposing his presence against the opposition.

To compound matters he was groomed as a captain by Misbah. We all know Pakistan lost its competitive edge when he was captain himself before the team had more of a ruthless streak about them during the 2017-2019 years under Sarfraz. Now we're seeing history repeat itself during the 2011-2015 era. I call it the Misbah cycle. If you keep him out, you'll do better, if you bring him in you'll bring doom and gloom.

As expected, there are so many similarities between Misbah's tenure as captain and what we're seeing from Babar, who's basically following the same template which can be defined two parts. Firstly, both of these guys are insecure which is why they relied on forming cliques. Secondly, they both played for their stats. Babar will always be known for being Captain Milestone, however we shouldn't forget this was a precedent set by Misbah during that Mohali innings where he was playing for his half-century and to stay unbeaten in the hope of retaining his place in the side.

Sarfraz wasn't amazing, just not as atrocious as Misbah. He was more flexible and open minded in his thinking. He backed new players including young blood in the side whereas Misbah was just stuck in his ways because he had a low cricketing IQ. I guess that's to be expected from someone who's studied at a 3rd rate institution.

If we cast our minds back to the 2017 CT. There's no way in the world he would've approved Fakhar to be opening the batting, when he was new to Pakistan cricket. He didn't want the game to be played that way. Nor would he've trusted Hasan Ali because he was generally very reluctant to back young, inexperienced players.

Even if he had picked them, his defensive fields, bowling rotations and the batting order of his choice would've led to another disaster for Pakistan. I have no doubt about that whatsoever. Just like how I was certain about how his coaching stint was going to turn out before he was appointed to take on this role. Nothing short of another dismal failure.

Indeed, Sarfraz instilled a winning mindset in the Pakistan side during his time as captain. Under his leadership, we saw Pakistan win 2017 CT and we played some good cricket in the 2019 WC. We were unlucky that our game against Sri Lanka was washed out because I fancied us to beat them 8 times out of 10. Had we beaten them, we would've been worthy semi-finalists.

Babar has a better talent pool to choose from but there's no way this team will be able to do anywhere near as well as the teams led by Sarfraz during the CT and last ODI WC. This is the Misbah effect.

When I look at the failures of Babar, Nawaz and Pakistan as a whole - for me that's divine justice. It's what the Pakistan team deserve for how they've treated players like Imad, Saim Ayub, Tayaab Tahir and perhaps Amir as well.

 

[ghalib kichlu]

Dark days ahead in pakistani cricket

You obviously never seen pakistans 2007 world cup attack or any of the tours to australia in 99-00

 

[topspin]

Misbah and Rizwan live rent free in some minds. They are the two of the most clean, sane and respectable cricketers we have produced in recent times yet for some they are the bane of Pakistan cricket. Thankless lot honestly, can never be proud of our heroes.

Misbah's hero narrative got exposed a long time ago.

During the 2011 World Cup Semi-Final in Mohali, Misbah played for his place in the side. He started slogging after he reached his half-century. I remember the comm. box, featuring Ravi Shashri, all perplexed by Misbah's approach. They were all wondering why he didn't show the same intent much earlier in the innings. It didn't take a genius to figure out what his intentions were. It was much bigger than milestones and stat padding. He was scared to lose his place in the side. Imagine that during a semi-final of an ODI World Cup!

Misbah played his part to oust Mickey Arthur as Head Coach merely to take up the role for himself, when he had no coaching qualifications nor any coaching experience. This could be forgiven if he had done a decent job but there was never any hope for someone with a poor cricketing IQ who was always so out of touch with the modern game even during his playing days. As rightly mentioned by @mominsaigol he was a snake.

As for Rizwan, the recent revelations have also exposed him. Him and the Chief Selector, Inzamam were business partners who collectively benefitted from the selection of a select group of players who happened to be clients of theirs.

 

[emranabbas]

Just out of curiosity, may we know the name of this top secret talent management agency that Rizwan and Misbah are heading?

it's not a secret company, it's a registered company in uk owned by inziman ul haq, muhammed rizwan and talha rehmani ( owner of saya corp) https://www.sayacorps.com/


Here is the company registered with company house in uk

YAZOO INTERNATIONAL LTD overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

YAZOO INTERNATIONAL LTD - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

 

[mominsaigol]

A wonderful thread and a much needed one particularly for those who're blind to everything that's going on.

It's the second most depressing time to be a Pakistan cricket fan following the dark Misbah era in his stints as captain and coach of the side.

Rizwan has indeed been exposed after the recent revelations. How some of you can still defend him is beyond me. I wonder if those rallying behind Rizwan actually understand the seriousness of his role as a director of a sports management company? Him and Inzamam are business partners who have benefitted from the selection of a select group of players who were clients of theirs. Make no mistake it's a huge deal (pun intended). 2 good innings against Netherlands, Sri Lanka and all of the other "happy memories" of stat padding against weaker bowling attacks doesn't cut it.

We all know Babar is no leader of men and that's why it was obvious he was never going come out as a good captain. I was in disbelief when the likes of Mamoon and everyone else was advocating for him to take over from Sarfraz in 2019. You can see from a million miles away that someone like him can't impose his presence for the benefit of his team nor is he capable of imposing his presence against the opposition.

To compound matters he was groomed as a captain by Misbah. We all know Pakistan lost its competitive edge when he was captain himself before the team had more of a ruthless streak about them during the 2017-2019 years under Sarfraz. Now we're seeing history repeat itself during the 2011-2015 era. I call it the Misbah cycle. If you keep him out, you'll do better, if you bring him in you'll bring doom and gloom.

As expected, there are so many similarities between Misbah's tenure as captain and what we're seeing from Babar, who's basically following the same template which can be defined two parts. Firstly, both of these guys are insecure which is why they relied on forming cliques. Secondly, they both played for their stats. Babar will always be known for being Captain Milestone, however we shouldn't forget this was a precedent set by Misbah during that Mohali innings where he was playing for his half-century and to stay unbeaten in the hope of retaining his place in the side.

Sarfraz wasn't amazing, just not as atrocious as Misbah. He was more flexible and open minded in his thinking. He backed new players including young blood in the side whereas Misbah was just stuck in his ways because he had a low cricketing IQ. I guess that's to be expected from someone who's studied at a 3rd rate institution.

If we cast our minds back to the 2017 CT. There's no way in the world he would've approved Fakhar to be opening the batting, when he was new to Pakistan cricket. He didn't want the game to be played that way. Nor would he've trusted Hasan Ali because he was generally very reluctant to back young, inexperienced players.

Even if he had picked them, his defensive fields, bowling rotations and the batting order of his choice would've led to another disaster for Pakistan. I have no doubt about that whatsoever. Just like how I was certain about how his coaching stint was going to turn out before he was appointed to take on this role. Nothing short of another dismal failure.

Indeed, Sarfraz instilled a winning mindset in the Pakistan side during his time as captain. Under his leadership, we saw Pakistan win 2017 CT and we played some good cricket in the 2019 WC. We were unlucky that our game against Sri Lanka was washed out because I fancied us to beat them 8 times out of 10. Had we beaten them, we would've been worthy semi-finalists.

Babar has a better talent pool to choose from but there's no way this team will be able to do anywhere near as well as the teams led by Sarfraz during the CT and last ODI WC. This is the Misbah effect.

When I look at the failures of Babar, Nawaz and Pakistan as a whole - for me that's divine justice. It's what the Pakistan team deserve for how they've treated players like Imad, Saim Ayub, Tayaab Tahir and perhaps Amir as well.

Misbah would have shoved fakhar to no 7 and would put hafeez back at opening after shehzad's failure

 

[FastBowlingAllrounder]

it's not a secret company, it's a registered company in uk owned by inziman ul haq, muhammed rizwan and talha rehmani ( owner of saya corp) https://www.sayacorps.com/


Here is the company registered with company house in uk

YAZOO INTERNATIONAL LTD overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

YAZOO INTERNATIONAL LTD - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

Thanks for the info - I just said top secret as posters mentioned it in this thread but didn't provide a name or anything so was curious to read into it.

I wonder if there are elements of PCB's constitution/policy which address such conflicts of interest and if any cricketers that either hold positions in this firm or are managed by them can be held liable? Inzimam's conflict of interest was called out but I wonder if the same can be done for other people involved.

 

[daytrader]

They are not clear and on record. I read every single argument lol and I remember pur argument.

You didn't argue against me, you just told me todtop disrespecting our legends with zero context as to why?

Then when we got onto discussing, many of your claims were unfounded. Like when I showed umar akmal's stats at no 3 compared to shafiq's odi stats at 3 and why it made no sense to be discarded, all you said was

" But shafiq was oozing with talent"

^^ Like bro, this is an argument of emotion and clearly a fallacious argument.

No one counter argues, they just get defensive and speak from emotions and make unfounded claims in general.

Their isn't any counter argument because people are incapable of counter arguing since none of those claims are facts and are all debunkable by actual facts.

umm you're recalling from memory and it seems distorted. Go back and read the actual posts.

Your argument was Misbah is 'nepotistic and corrupt af'. I had asked you to back your claims rather than malign his good name. you came back with oh he preferred his friend Asad Shafiq for #3. Then when i pointed out you were wrong and that Asad Shafiq was already playing at #3 before Misbah was captain, you decided to personally attack and call me words which we had to edit out.

 

[daytrader]

Brother its because no one can logically counter argue anything I say.

I'm the only poster to this date that presents facts over emotion.

When I am wrong in certain factors, I am the first to admit it.

You were proven wrong on Misbah playing his 'friend' Asad Shafiq at 3. No need to get conceited. It's okay to be wrong

 

[daytrader]

these are Rizwan's away performances vs top 5 teams I don't know in what world you call them decent

Records type batting analysis [change type]

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Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Host country Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Ordered by default (ascending)

Overall Stats

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	2015-2023	72	66	15	2052	131*	40.23	2274	90.23	3	13	2	178	21	Profile
filtered	2016-2023	19	18	3	381	74	25.40	453	84.10	0	1	1	41	1

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
v Australia	2017-2023	6	5	1	97	46	24.25	121	80.16	0	0	0	7	0
v England	2016-2021	5	5	1	132	74	33.00	126	104.76	0	1	0	16	0
v India	2023-2023	1	1	0	49	49	49.00	69	71.01	0	0	0	7	0
v New Zealand	2016-2016	1	1	0	16	16	16.00	18	88.88	0	0	0	1	0
v South Africa	2019-2023	6	6	1	87	40	17.40	119	73.10	0	0	1	10	1

By Year

year 2016		3	3	1	56	34*	28.00	66	84.84	0	0	0	5	0
year 2017		5	4	1	51	21	17.00	81	62.96	0	0	0	2	0
year 2019		2	2	1	14	10	14.00	31	45.16	0	0	0	2	0
year 2021		6	6	0	134	74	22.33	139	96.40	0	1	1	16	0
year 2023		3	3	0	126	49	42.00	136	92.64	0	0	0	16	1

if we compare compare him to all our other batsmen in the last 10 years this is what we get

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Primary team Pakistan

Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Host country Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Start of match date greater than or equal to 3 Nov 2013

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
Misbah-ul-Haq	2013-2015	8	8	1	373	79*	53.28	508	73.42	0	4	0	26	8
Babar Azam	2016-2023	45	45	4	2009	158	49.00	2258	88.97	5	11	2	213	17
Imad Wasim	2016-2019	25	18	8	468	63*	46.80	396	118.18	0	2	1	48	8
Fakhar Zaman	2017-2021	28	28	1	1235	193	45.74	1315	93.91	4	6	2	135	31
Imam-ul-Haq	2018-2023	24	24	2	981	151	44.59	1210	81.07	2	7	1	96	6
Haris Sohail	2015-2019	11	11	1	445	89	44.50	519	85.74	0	4	0	43	6
Mohammad Hasnain	2019-2021	4	2	1	40	28	40.00	22	181.81	0	0	0	7	1
Sarfaraz Ahmed	2015-2021	34	30	6	903	105	37.62	987	91.48	1	5	0	71	9
Mohammad Hafeez	2013-2019	33	32	3	1045	86	36.03	1165	89.69	0	10	3	83	31
Sharjeel Khan	2016-2017	10	10	0	350	79	35.00	292	119.86	0	4	1	51	9
Aamer Yamin	2018-2018	1	1	1	32	32*	-	27	118.51	0	0	0	3	1
Abdullah Shafique	2023-2023	3	3	0	93	64	31.00	102	91.17	0	1	0	11	2
Saud Shakeel	2021-2023	6	6	1	152	56	30.40	186	81.72	0	2	0	17	0
Shadab Khan	2017-2023	25	19	6	382	54	29.38	471	81.10	0	2	2	27	8
Ahmed Shehzad	2013-2017	11	11	0	314	102	28.54	458	68.55	1	1	1	33	2
Azhar Ali	2016-2018	17	17	0	473	82	27.82	671	70.49	0	5	2	42	5
Shahid Afridi	2013-2015	7	7	0	182	67	26.00	126	144.44	0	1	0	17	8
Mohammad Rizwan	2016-2023	19	18	3	381	74	25.40	453	84.10	0	1	1	41	1
Shoaib Malik	2016-2019	27	25	3	533	77	24.22	646	82.50	0	1	2	38	11
Asif Ali	2019-2021	9	8	0	182	52	22.75	161	113.04	0	2	0	9	9
Anwar Ali	2013-2016	4	4	1	67	43*	22.33	83	80.72	0	0	0	7	1
Abdur Rehman	2013-2013	1	1	0	22	22	22.00	40	55.00	0	0	0	2	0

its embarrassing that muhammed hasnain has better average than rizwan when playing top teams away anyone can stack up runs at home vs d string bowling attack

What this really shows is that Rizwan is a hard working man and takes his game seriously. He's improved and is currently averaging 71 and striking at 99 this World Cup. It's in India btw