Pakistan, the land of pacers!

[Gubol123]

I don't want to waste my time with someone who thinks Agarkar was a cricketer to begin with. If you want people to take you seriously, tone down on the chest-thumping and focus on facts. I had no issues with your earlier posts, but this last one makes me think you want to be trolled.

So basically again you have no argument and no exit.. Fact is pak hasn't produced any ATG pacers I'm three decades. Live with it..

 

[Gubol123]

But the strategy over the last 10 years has been to rely on spinners as the wicket taking bowlers. Starting with Ajmal.

Why would you choose such a strategy if already had an ATG pacer? See my posts above. I posted stats for 90s and 2000s when Pak was still playing at home. Again no such pacer who took even bare minimum of 200 test wickets. So much for land of pacers. You are way down the list.. SA, Australia, England and New Zealand go have all produced more quality pacers in last three decades. Get out of your delusion that the pak is the land of pacers..

 

[blackanhyellow]

World class doesn't mean someone is an ATG. Players come players go. How many stayed and actually did something to qualify of as good players over a period of time. 200 wickets for a bowler is like a batsman scoring 5000 runs in his test career. To qualify someone as ATG batsman we see if the batsman has scored at least around 8000 international runs before we weigh their contribution. 200 test wickets is a bare minimum to qualify as an ATG. And the land of pacers had a total zero such pacers in three decades

8000 runs makes someone an atg?

I didnt know Pakistan had so many atg batsmen then. Miandad, Inzamam, Younis Khan, even Mohammad Yousaf was only 500 runs away from being an atg!

Similarly if 200 wickets makes a bowler an atg, I didnt know India had so many. Even Ishant Sharma is an all time great!!!!

Because Ishant Sharma has more wickets than Shoaib Akhter, that makes him a better bowler?

Btw I am not arguing Pakistan only produced 3 atg bowlers. What I am saying is we have a whole long list of world class bowlers. They may not have taken 200+ wickets but many were of high calibre. That is what makes Pakistan land of pacers.

 

[Gubol123]

8000 runs makes someone an atg?

I didnt know Pakistan had so many atg batsmen then. Miandad, Inzamam, Younis Khan, even Mohammad Yousaf was only 500 runs away from being an atg!

Similarly if 200 wickets makes a bowler an atg, I didnt know India had so many. Even Ishant Sharma is an all time great!!!!

Because Ishant Sharma has more wickets than Shoaib Akhter, that makes him a better bowler?

Btw I am not arguing Pakistan only produced 3 atg bowlers. What I am saying is we have a whole long list of world class bowlers. They may not have taken 200+ wickets but many were of high calibre. That is what makes Pakistan land of pacers.

Is there a problem with reading comprehension ? I said at least. I took that number as anything below will exclude players like Viv and boycott. Read before you reply. I was using that example to establish a reasonable minimum. Again the topic is about pak being land of pacers and having a minimum of 200 test wickets criteria is very reasonable. Pak has none in two decades.
In fact they have none apart from Imran and two Ws.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Is there a problem with reading comprehension ? I said at least. I took that number as anything below will exclude players like Viv and boycott. Read before you reply. I was using that example to establish a reasonable minimum. Again the topic is about pak being land of pacers and having a minimum of 200 test wickets criteria is very reasonable. Pak has none in two decades.
In fact they have none apart from Imran and two Ws.

Reading comprehension certainly isnt your strength. I said I agreed Pakistan only produced 3 atgs. How many times do I have to say it?

I was saying apart from that Pak has produced many good quality bowlers, who may not be atgs but were quality. They couldnt have longetivity due to injuries, inconsistent selection, etc...

Also, I dont agree with your benchmarks. By your definition Bradman is not an ATG.

 

[DRsohail]

Indian fellows are still feeling...........

 

[cricketjoshila]

Shoaib, Asif, Gul were all world class at their peaks. So I don't know what you are on about.

Go and actually watch their bowling on youtube or something.

Shoaib was world class. Yes. But he didnot last long on the field. His failure to take even 200 test wickets tell you that he ignored his fitness which is also a aspect of a sportsman.

Gul with a test avg of 34 was world class really?

The last real world class bowler was Akhtar and the last great was Waqar.

Pakistan hasnot had a great bowler since Waqar made his debut in 1989. Thats not how you call yourself a land of pacers.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Reading comprehension certainly isnt your strength. I said I agreed Pakistan only produced 3 atgs. How many times do I have to say it?

I was saying apart from that Pak has produced many good quality bowlers, who may not be atgs but were quality. They couldnt have longetivity due to injuries, inconsistent selection, etc...

Also, I dont agree with your benchmarks. By your definition Bradman is not an ATG.

Having good performances for 2-3 years dont make you world class. A world class player adjusts himself to the rigours of the game reinvents himself when the opposition work him out. The last such pacer was Shoaib Akhtar. If he had not ignored his fitness he could have been a great.

 

[cricketjoshila]

8000 runs makes someone an atg?

I didnt know Pakistan had so many atg batsmen then. Miandad, Inzamam, Younis Khan, even Mohammad Yousaf was only 500 runs away from being an atg!

Similarly if 200 wickets makes a bowler an atg, I didnt know India had so many. Even Ishant Sharma is an all time great!!!!

Because Ishant Sharma has more wickets than Shoaib Akhter, that makes him a better bowler?

Btw I am not arguing Pakistan only produced 3 atg bowlers. What I am saying is we have a whole long list of world class bowlers. They may not have taken 200+ wickets but many were of high calibre. That is what makes Pakistan land of pacers.

200 wickets is a measure of longeivity. To be a great you need to have consistent performances over a period of time.

 

[ravisurya]

200 wickets is a measure of longeivity. To be a great you need to have consistent performances over a period of time.

Not at all. To be great you need to be Talented and to be talented you need to be from Pakistan.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Innocent question.

How many atg batsmen has India produced?

Sachin
Potentially Kohli
Maybe Gavaskar

Who else?

No one expects Sachins and Kohlis from India. You guys were blessed with them, be happy you may never see players like them for a long time.

Just like we will probably not see imran, wasim, waqar type bowlers for a long time.

Just like Aus may never see a shane warne type player for a long time.

So on and so forth.

Gavaskar in 70s and 80s

Tendulkar in 90s and 2000s

Dravid in 2000s and yes open a thread on PP and posters will tell you that Dravid is a ATG.

Kohli now.

Thats a ATG batsman in the team for almost 50 years. Thats consistency.

Not to forget that with them we had a host of batsman avging 40 plus over their careers with min. 4000 runs like Amarnath and Vengsarkar in 70s and 80s. Azhar Ganguly Dravid Laxman Sehwag in 90s and 2000s .

Now we have Pujara,Rahane etc

Thats consistenly producing world class and ATG level test batsmen for 50 years.

Pakistan somehow has not done it after Akhtar which is really surprising.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Shoaib was world class. Yes. But he didnot last long on the field. His failure to take even 200 test wickets tell you that he ignored his fitness which is also a aspect of a sportsman.

Gul with a test avg of 34 was world class really?

The last real world class bowler was Akhtar and the last great was Waqar.

Pakistan hasnot had a great bowler since Waqar made his debut in 1989. Thats not how you call yourself a land of pacers.

Zaheer khan had an average of 33 I still consider him world class.

Jimmy Anderson had an average of 30 at one point in his career, he is still world class.

I have a different approach to cricket than most I guess. Averages are one thing and can vary depending on what conditions you played most of your matches in, if you played mostly against strong teams, etc...,

But if a bowler is doing freaky things with ball like Mohammad Asif could do, you call that bowler world class.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Gavaskar in 70s and 80s

Tendulkar in 90s and 2000s

Dravid in 2000s and yes open a thread on PP and posters will tell you that Dravid is a ATG.

Kohli now.

Thats a ATG batsman in the team for almost 50 years. Thats consistency.

Not to forget that with them we had a host of batsman avging 40 plus over their careers with min. 4000 runs like Amarnath and Vengsarkar in 70s and 80s. Azhar Ganguly Dravid Laxman Sehwag in 90s and 2000s .

Now we have Pujara,Rahane etc

Thats consistenly producing world class and ATG level test batsmen for 50 years.

Pakistan somehow has not done it after Akhtar which is really surprising.

Its funny how your standards of world class players are so high, yet your standard of ATGs are relatively low.

If you were making an all time world XI, would Dravid make your XI? Be honest...

I agree most of your other batsmen were world class, but only Sachin and Gavaskar were atgs. Kohli has the potential for sure and most likely will be one.

 

[ads101]

Gavaskar in 70s and 80s

Tendulkar in 90s and 2000s

Dravid in 2000s and yes open a thread on PP and posters will tell you that Dravid is a ATG.

Kohli now.

Thats a ATG batsman in the team for almost 50 years. Thats consistency.

Not to forget that with them we had a host of batsman avging 40 plus over their careers with min. 4000 runs like Amarnath and Vengsarkar in 70s and 80s. Azhar Ganguly Dravid Laxman Sehwag in 90s and 2000s .

Now we have Pujara,Rahane etc

Thats consistenly producing world class and ATG level test batsmen for 50 years.

Pakistan somehow has not done it after Akhtar which is really surprising.

Sehwag's an ATG, was easily one of the best openers of his era (maybe Graeme Smith better but that's it). Plus no one except Warner really could do what Sehwag did score fast in the top order. Was a really valuable quality when India was pushing for a result. Wasn't as good outside Asia, but wasn't bad (people exaggerate) but the trade off of higher scoring rates puts him among the greats.

You're right Pakistan hasn't had many ATGs of late. Akhtar had the level of an ATG, but didn't play enough. But I think comes closest out of the lot, while guys like YK, Inzi, Yousuf etc had longer careers, I don't believe they were as good as Akhtar when he actually played. Asif might have been an ATG if he played for a longer time, he had the potential. Last ATG for us was Waqar really.

Getting ATGs in terms of pace bowlers is very hard these days, particularly in the subcontinent. Too many formats, and bowling on those sort of pitches breaks them down. Very few pace bowlers can handle playing all three formats comfortably any more. And a lot of pace bowlers are veering towards Limited overs as it reduces risk of injuries and is potentially more profitable.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Its funny how your standards of world class players are so high, yet your standard of ATGs are relatively low.

If you were making an all time world XI, would Dravid make your XI? Be honest...

I agree most of your other batsmen were world class, but only Sachin and Gavaskar were atgs. Kohli has the potential for sure and most likely will be one.

Will Waqar Younis make a All time world 11? He is still a ATG.

The spots in a ATG11 are pretty much fixed.

Hutton
Gavaskar/Hobb
Bradman
Tendulkar
Viv
Sobers/Imran
Gilly
Wasim
Marshall
Warne
Murali/Mcgrath/Hadlee/Ambrose/Lillee/Steyn

Will you br able to fit in Waqar or Donald or Lara or Dravid in there?

Dravid is a ATG any which wat you cut it. Open a thread on pp. You will get the views.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Will Waqar Younis make a All time world 11? He is still a ATG.

The spots in a ATG11 are pretty much fixed.

Hutton
Gavaskar/Hobb
Bradman
Tendulkar
Viv
Sobers/Imran
Gilly
Wasim
Marshall
Warne
Murali/Mcgrath/Hadlee/Ambrose/Lillee/Steyn

Will you br able to fit in Waqar or Donald or Lara or Dravid in there?

Dravid is a ATG any which wat you cut it. Open a thread on pp. You will get the views.

Yes but Waqar would be in the argument. Dravid wouldnt.

This is not me being biased or anything, just speaking objectively.

If you put Waqar in that world XI, the quality doesnt really go down. But if you put Dravid in that XI that is a big step down from his competition.

With all due respect to Dravid, funny thing is he is my favorite Indian cricketer apart from Dhoni and Yuvi

I am not a Sachin fan but still put him in ATG category because objectively he belongs there.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Will Waqar Younis make a All time world 11? He is still a ATG.

No, but Waqar will go down in history as one of the pioneers of cricket with Reverse Swing.

SRT et al do not hold a candle in this regard, as they did not change the game by virtue of their own skill.

We know this, when we watch games, a reverse swing yorker, and commentators mention the said delivery is *Waqar Younis-eqse*. You never hear non-Indian commentators saying a cover drive shot is Tendulkar-eqsq.

Fame is not just about being in the top XI, status is about how one changed the rules.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Yes but Waqar would be in the argument. Dravid wouldnt.

This is not me being biased or anything, just speaking objectively.

If you put Waqar in that world XI, the quality doesnt really go down. But if you put Dravid in that XI that is a big step down from his competition.

With all due respect to Dravid, funny thing is he is my favorite Indian cricketer apart from Dhoni and Yuvi

I am not a Sachin fan but still put him in ATG category because objectively he belongs there.

Really Dravid is a step down? You sir have no idea what you are saying. Dravid is as much a ATG as Waqar is if not more.

As i said lets open a thread on it here?

 

[Abdullah719]

OK guys, new thread there so can we get back on topic here please?