Pakistan, the land of pacers!

[Usman Chadda]

You remember ct final but forget the previous almost 10 to 15 matches played in recent 10 years that includes 2011 wc sf and qf matches in world cups. Where were you then. In the last 10 years or so we have a record of something 10-3. And no wonder after just one win you have shown your minnow mentality and bragging about that one win everywhere.
No wonder you have been in the bottom of odi ranking for past some years and will continue to do so.

Tumhari aukaat humne dekh li thi last kai matches me jaha one side k upar one sided matches ho rahe the.
Lets nit even talk about 11-0 streak. Such a shameful streak.
Long live the streak.

Yes we will talk about it because we beat the living daylights out of your superstars in a final when the world was watching. Minnows don't win tournaments. However I would say minnows would put up a better performance than your shameful lot did that day.

Pakistan has bragging rights no matter how much you whine and rather than question our aukaat, have a look at your over-rated rockstars who let you down that day.

 

[WildSwing]

That may be true on potential but Shaheen has already made his debut.

India already has enough fast bowlers on rotation basis, the Indian under-19 guys won't make the team for another 3-4 years, they'll have to be extremely exceptional to jump ahead of the queue.

 

[WildSwing]

By excluding T20's? A LO's format?

Kohli has skipped 2 t20 series in a row, do you really think India takes this format seriously except the world t20s? Let's be real here, international t20s outside of world t20 hold little importance

 

[ManFan]

India already has enough fast bowlers on rotation basis, the Indian under-19 guys won't make the team for another 3-4 years, they'll have to be extremely exceptional to jump ahead of the queue.

India could do with replacing B. Kumar.

Only Bumrah is un-replacable as Shami is also injured.

 

[ManFan]

Kohli has skipped 2 t20 series in a row, do you really think India takes this format seriously except the world t20s? Let's be real here, international t20s outside of world t20 hold little importance

Might be, but that does not change the fact that teams are not held back from playing full-strength teams.

 

[WildSwing]

India could do with replacing B. Kumar.

Only Bumrah is un-replacable as Shami is also injured.

B. kumar is a gun bowler in 2 out of 3 formats, also there are bowlers like yadav, ishant sitting on the bench, there are plenty of domestic bowlers in the queue waiting for their chance, it will take some time for the under 19 guys to break through

 

[WildSwing]

Might be, but that does not change the fact that teams are not held back from playing full-strength teams.

It shows the importance of the format, you are free to rate them, I as of now don't really care for it

 

[IndianFan2018]

Yes these future fast bowlers like Unadkat, Thakur, Siraj. ATGs in the making.

Your U19 guys were hyped up so much but got outbowled by the Pakistan pacers.

Who won the recent U19 WC ?

 

[babajee]

Who won the recent U19 WC ?

Congratulations to India. They won that because of their batting and their top wicket taker was a spinner. This thread is about pacers.

Actually this thread isn’t even about India. You guys like to butt in.

 

[Syed1]

How many matches againist minnows and teams like WI Z 11?

PP pe chillane se kuch nahi hoga. Ranking pe dikh raha hai kahan ho tum.

Yeah we are number one in the rankings in the T20s

 

[Syed1]

This just shows my interest in international t20s


I'll simply quote you to reply to this part

"Numbers do not lie, numbers do not chest-thump, numbers do not have an opinion. You can choose to ignore them, but you cannot deny validity of numbers. "

I showed you the numbers and they agreed with what I'm saying. Pakistan is a better bowling attack than India.

 

[Syed1]

Test match mein kya ho gaya? Haan? No minnows to bash there?

Playing series after series with SL and WI at home and claiming great stats.

It's not our fault that these "mighty" WI beat you

 

[IndianFan2018]

Congratulations to India. They won that because of their batting and their top wicket taker was a spinner. This thread is about pacers.

Actually this thread isn’t even about India. You guys like to butt in.

When false claims are made..other members of this public forum will respond with their views.

What's the point of debate if only cosy club of own country fans pat each other backs ? I rarely spend time in Indian Cric forums, I love to hear and debate with arch rival fans here in PP ...all banter no hard feelings

 

[cricketjoshila]

It's not our fault that these "mighty" WI beat you

Do not see Gayle or Simmons Braithwaite Russel Bravo etc in the team? Do you?

 

[Syed1]

Do not see Gayle or Simmons Braithwaite Russel Bravo etc in the team? Do you?

We even whitewashed them with all of those in the side

 

[DRsohail]

Lolz Indians making themselves happy by saying we won more world cups. So does it mean ur phaasst bowling is world class. To pak posters! Leave them in their delusion . They have found a 135 kph bowler after Kapil dev so they are rightl in doing gaga about such things.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Lolz Indians making themselves happy by saying we won more world cups. So does it mean ur phaasst bowling is world class. To pak posters! Leave them in their delusion . They have found a 135 kph bowler after Kapil dev so they are rightl in doing gaga about such things.

You dont have a test class bowler. Dont know what you are smug about.

 

[Rayyman]

You dont have a test class bowler. Dont know what you are smug about.

Pakistan doesn't play Tests.

 

[DRsohail]

You dont have a test class bowler. Dont know what you are smug about.

We have .Abbas is developing well.Hassan has shown his promise.Wahab is good in patches.
They just need more test matches.

 

[giri26]

All keep the discussion on topic. This thread is not to discuss the head to head record of India & Pakistan and is not the place to compare Indian and Pakistan bowling attacks.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Pakistan doesn't play Tests.

How did you manage to lose test series in NZ Aus and againist SL?

 

[Rayyman]

How did you manage to lose test series in NZ Aus and againist SL?

They have played two tests in the last 12 months.

 

[WengerOut]

They have played two tests in the last 12 months.

What about before that?

 

[DRsohail]

How did you manage to lose test series in NZ Aus and againist SL?

Batting.This bowling line up did well.

 

[DRsohail]

We even whitewashed them with all of those in the side

When lewis was scoring hundreds against mighty indian bowling line up in t20i.

 

[cricketjoshila]

When lewis was scoring hundreds against mighty indian bowling line up in t20i.

Even WI manage to beat you in tests. Even SL beats you in a test series at home.

 

[DRsohail]

Even WI manage to beat you in tests. Even SL beats you in a test series at home.

HAHAHA everything is changing to tests now.
You were talking about t20 that key players were missing.
Bro first make it sure that what you want to say then post.

 

[cricketjoshila]

HAHAHA everything is changing to tests now.
You were talking about t20 that key players were missing.
Bro first make it sure that what you want to say then post.

Bhai the OP calls Pakistan land of pacers. Its not land of T20 pacers. May be change the OP.

 

[DRsohail]

Bhai the OP calls Pakistan land of pacers. Its not land of T20 pacers. May be change the OP.

OK.Will see you in pp t20 league.Be ready for my bouncers there.Chill brother.
AT the end i will say that indian pace battery has definitely improved and will like our test bowling to improve as well.

 

[cricketjoshila]

OK.Will see you in pp t20 league.Be ready for my bouncers there.Chill brother.
AT the end i will say that indian pace battery has definitely improved and will like our test bowling to improve as well.

Bro,

World expects Wasims and waqars and Akhtars and Imrans from Pakistan not Amirs or Rahat Ali or even Hassan.

Just like India is expected to produce a Kohli and cannot tom tom Rohit Sharma as its best.

I hope you get what i am saying.

 

[babajee]

Bro,

World expects Wasims and waqars and Akhtars and Imrans from Pakistan not Amirs or Rahat Ali or even Hassan.

Just like India is expected to produce a Kohli and cannot tom tom Rohit Sharma as its best.

I hope you get what i am saying.

World expects Australia team to be like the one they had in the 2000s.

Why isn’t it like that now?

 

[Rayyman]

World expects Australia team to be like the one they had in the 2000s.

Why isn’t it like that now?

Aussie Golden Era is over.

There is a new dynasty incoming.

 

[babajee]

Aussie Golden Era is over.

There is a new dynasty incoming.

West Indies of the 80s, Australia of the 00s... Pakistan of the 20s.

 

[AssassinatedDevil]

SA NZ even Eng have better attacks.

Don't forget Zimbabwe Bangladesh and India

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[IndianFan2018]

Aussie Golden Era is over.

There is a new dynasty incoming.

Bhagwan kuch bhi de lekin galt phemi na de

 

[Gubol123]

Mighty Pakistan should first produce a pace bowler who is capable of taking 200 test wickets in tests.. There has not been a single pace bowler from Pakistan who has taken atleast that much in the last 2 decades..

 

[backfootpunch]

Mighty Pakistan should first produce a pace bowler who is capable of taking 200 test wickets in tests.. There has not been a single pace bowler from Pakistan who has taken atleast that much in the last 2 decades..

Not a relevant stat when the likes of Ishant have achieved this considering he is way below international standard.

 

[Gubol123]

Not a relevant stat when the likes of Ishant have achieved this considering he is way below international standard.

What your pacers can't achieve is not a relavent stat. By the way the right way to look at it is even Ishant Sharma could achieve what your pathetic pacerst couldn't. Pakistan produced lots of good pacers in the past although we don't know how much of the stats were due to bottle caps. But the ones produced in the last two decades were as garbage as anywhere else.

 

[Usman Chadda]

What your pacers can't achieve is not a relavent stat. By the way the right way to look at it is even Ishant Sharma could achieve what your pathetic pacerst couldn't. Pakistan produced lots of good pacers in the past although we don't know how much of the stats were due to bottle caps. But the ones produced in the last two decades were as garbage as anywhere else.

Mohammad Asif and Shoaib Akhtar were garbage bowlers?

On topic, Amir and Hasan will become better with experience. Both are young and have the skills to be top bowlers in world cricket. Pace bowling since 2007-2017 was a disappointment, but these young cricketers that we have right now have given us much hope.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Mohammad Asif and Shoaib Akhtar were garbage bowlers?

On topic, Amir and Hasan will become better with experience. Both are young and have the skills to be top bowlers in world cricket. Pace bowling since 2007-2017 was a disappointment, but these young cricketers that we have right now have given us much hope.

Akhtar actually too 200+ Odi wickets. The last Pakistani pacer to do so. He made his debut in 1997 though. But even he didnt have the longeivity to take 200 test wickets.

A great bowler is someone who performs exceedingly well ove a large period of time. Like IK like the 2Ws, Akhtar if he had been more serious would have joined them but he was still very good.

How you maintain your fitness is also a characteristic of a great sportsman.

Asif???Well his avg in Pakistan suggests he was nowhere near the quality of 2Ws or IK or Akhtar.

Lets be honest here, you will be questioning us if we talked about great Indian batting and had Rohit Sharma as our current leader.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Akhtar actually too 200+ Odi wickets. The last Pakistani pacer to do so. He made his debut in 1997 though. But even he didnt have the longeivity to take 200 test wickets.

A great bowler is someone who performs exceedingly well ove a large period of time. Like IK like the 2Ws, Akhtar if he had been more serious would have joined them but he was still very good.

How you maintain your fitness is also a characteristic of a great sportsman.

Asif???Well his avg in Pakistan suggests he was nowhere near the quality of 2Ws or IK or Akhtar.

Lets be honest here, you will be questioning us if we talked about great Indian batting and had Rohit Sharma as our current leader.

The thing with bringing in Wasim, Waqar and Imran in a discussion is that there are hardly many pacers in history that would compare to them. The sheer longevity and the sheer brilliance of these three gentlemen is an unfair standard to compare every cricketer to. The same happens when you bring in Tendulkar or Lara to compare any batsman with, besides Kohli who is a beast, no other batsman would even get close.

Asif was a genius and the biggest waste of talent in probably Pakistan's history. He was well on his way to greatness if he he hadn't been a fool and thrown it all away. Ofcourse since he played very few matches compared to the Ws, he pales in comparison. But the sign of a truly good bowler is how he wins matches for his country. Asif did it against the best consistently.

Akhtar was also a brilliant match-winner but his injury issues didnt allow him to establish himself in world cricket. Pakistan hasn't had any bowler who can compare with these two, let alone Ws (who are in top 10 of ATG bowlers).

There is hope from Amir and Hasan to reignite that passion for fast bowling. As an Indian fan you won't realize the kind of damage our fast bowling went through when we had the likes of Razzaq, Tanvir Ahmed, Sohail Khan, Gul opening the bowling attack for us in the 2007-2017 period. That period, with our over-reliance on spinners, set us back considerably. Now we are hopeful these two can become world-class cricketers while the likes of Shenwari, Raees, Afridi, Junaid, Faheem etc provide good support as third pacers.

 

[backfootpunch]

What your pacers can't achieve is not a relavent stat. By the way the right way to look at it is even Ishant Sharma could achieve what your pathetic pacerst couldn't. Pakistan produced lots of good pacers in the past although we don't know how much of the stats were due to bottle caps. But the ones produced in the last two decades were as garbage as anywhere else.

RIP logic - I have nothing else to say

 

[Gubol123]

RIP logic - I have nothing else to say

Okay Einstein tell me in what is the right logic? measuring a sportsman on your feelings? Or measuring based on your perception of potential? or the mythical talent? Let me repeat the facts so that you can read it and use it repeat to yourself to get out of your delusion. In freaking two decades the land of pacers has not produced one single pacer who has got 200 test wickets.. That is a fact irrespective of what you say

 

[Gubol123]

Delusions on this thread is scary.. i hope most of PPers are not living in their own SimCity.. see the stats for last two decades.. there is not a single pacer from Pakistan, the so called land of pacers, in top 25.. let that sink in. Not a single pacer... Even India has couple of them. If any country can be called a land of pacers that has to be SA who have been consistently producing an ATG in every generation Donald, Pollock, Steyn and now to take that forward Rabada.. In fact even their second level pacers like Ntini, Morkel, Philander and Kallis have done much much better than any Pak pacers. SA is followed by Aus who have been producing greats like Mcgrath and high quality pacers like Johnson, Starc, Hazelwood etc.. Both NZ and England are also quite ahead of Pakistan..

Again the so called land of Pacers has produced not a single bowler in top 25 in the last 20 years... So stop all the chest thumping and start producing some real quality pacers

 

[Usman Chadda]

Delusions on this thread is scary.. i hope most of PPers are not living in their own SimCity.. see the stats for last two decades.. there is not a single pacer from Pakistan, the so called land of pacers, in top 25.. let that sink in. Not a single pacer... Even India has couple of them. If any country can be called a land of pacers that has to be SA who have been consistently producing an ATG in every generation Donald, Pollock, Steyn and now to take that forward Rabada.. In fact even their second level pacers like Ntini, Morkel, Philander and Kallis have done much much better than any Pak pacers. SA is followed by Aus who have been producing greats like Mcgrath and high quality pacers like Johnson, Starc, Hazelwood etc.. Both NZ and England are also quite ahead of Pakistan..

Again the so called land of Pacers has produced not a single bowler in top 25 in the last 20 years... So stop all the chest thumping and start producing some real quality pacers

View attachment 80662

Look at the amount of matches played by Akhtar and Gul (bloody hell how is he in there?!), and the amount of matches played by other bowlers. Zaheer Khan has played one less test match than Akhtar and Gul combined lol.

Pakistan hasn't played much test cricket and our reliance on spinners between 2007-2017 where no pacer was really given a decent run, has led to this scenario. I'm positively shocked by India's best pace bowler in history Zaheer Khan having a bowling average barely better than Umar Gul. Gul was unfairly thrust to on-and-off lead the Pakistan bowling attack, when he was at best a third seamer.

 

[backfootpunch]

Okay Einstein tell me in what is the right logic? measuring a sportsman on your feelings? Or measuring based on your perception of potential? or the mythical talent? Let me repeat the facts so that you can read it and use it repeat to yourself to get out of your delusion. In freaking two decades the land of pacers has not produced one single pacer who has got 200 test wickets.. That is a fact irrespective of what you say

My dear fresh pot let me explain why Pakistan hasn't produced 200 wickets since the turn of the millennium and why substandard bowlers like Ishant have:

They play less tests per year compared to India - Anyone from Pakistan domestic circuit can pretty much average 35-40 if they played as many tests as Ishant. Pakistan historically have played an average of around 5-7 tests per year since the 80s for e.g. Wasim Akram who debuted in 84 and played his last in 02 has only played 104 tests in those 18 or so years.

Now the reason why I had to mention Ishant because I found it hilarious that you were obviously proud of his achievements with your attack on Pakistan bowlers having not gone past 200 wickets in recent years. Let me give you a reality check to end this nonsense once and for all with a hard truth for you.

It took Ishant 65 tests to get 200 wickets which is the 5th slowest of all test bowlers who have reached that milestone - Zaheer was the 4th slowest by 2 tests! Remember not just Pakistan but there are many other sides like NZ who had abundance of quality pacers but they don't play as much as India.

Even though I accept bowling standards in Pakistan went down by some way since 2000 - but lets assume for argument sake Ishant was born on the other side of the border, there is no doubt whatsoever that Ishant would have struggled to retain his first XI spot (after a promising start) and play even half of the number of tests that he has for India so far, because the bowling standard and therefore the level of competition was far greater with the likes of Akhtar and Asif. But according to you these were garbage bowlers and you seem to insinuate that Ishant was better than these guys. Hence why I say RIP logic.

Also I should add there were domestic bowlers around that time who were miles better than Ishant like Aizaz Cheema. If you've actually heard of him he was a skilful and classy bowler who could consistently bowl 90 mph at his peak but still somehow couldn't find a place in intls. When he got the chance to play for Pakistan he was over the hill (as he was well over 30) but was still bowling able to bowl 140 and he still had the magic - as evident from that final over he bowled in the winning Asia Cup campaign.

The level of competition back then was still suffice for Pakistan management to change bowlers as they wished from series to series. Cementing a spot in that team was still no joke but if it takes 65 games to get 200 wickets then I guess it is contrary for India.

 

[backfootpunch]

Delusions on this thread is scary.. i hope most of PPers are not living in their own SimCity.. see the stats for last two decades.. there is not a single pacer from Pakistan, the so called land of pacers, in top 25.. let that sink in. Not a single pacer... Even India has couple of them. If any country can be called a land of pacers that has to be SA who have been consistently producing an ATG in every generation Donald, Pollock, Steyn and now to take that forward Rabada.. In fact even their second level pacers like Ntini, Morkel, Philander and Kallis have done much much better than any Pak pacers. SA is followed by Aus who have been producing greats like Mcgrath and high quality pacers like Johnson, Starc, Hazelwood etc.. Both NZ and England are also quite ahead of Pakistan..

Again the so called land of Pacers has produced not a single bowler in top 25 in the last 20 years... So stop all the chest thumping and start producing some real quality pacers

View attachment 80662

Shot yourself in the foot I'm afraid, the only bowler with an average of less than 30 (29.68 is practically 30) from both teams is a Pakistani with 25.69. Compare this with Srinath's average he still falls short by a long way - over 13%!

 

[backfootpunch]

Delusions on this thread is scary.. i hope most of PPers are not living in their own SimCity.. see the stats for last two decades.. there is not a single pacer from Pakistan, the so called land of pacers, in top 25.. let that sink in. Not a single pacer... Even India has couple of them. If any country can be called a land of pacers that has to be SA who have been consistently producing an ATG in every generation Donald, Pollock, Steyn and now to take that forward Rabada.. In fact even their second level pacers like Ntini, Morkel, Philander and Kallis have done much much better than any Pak pacers. SA is followed by Aus who have been producing greats like Mcgrath and high quality pacers like Johnson, Starc, Hazelwood etc.. Both NZ and England are also quite ahead of Pakistan..

Again the so called land of Pacers has produced not a single bowler in top 25 in the last 20 years... So stop all the chest thumping and start producing some real quality pacers

View attachment 80662

Also you'd be lying if you said Zaheer, Srinath and Ishant were better than Shoaib Akhtar.

 

[Gubol123]

My dear fresh pot let me explain why Pakistan hasn't produced 200 wickets since the turn of the millennium and why substandard bowlers like Ishant have:

They play less tests per year compared to India - Anyone from Pakistan domestic circuit can pretty much average 35-40 if they played as many tests as Ishant. Pakistan historically have played an average of around 5-7 tests per year since the 80s for e.g. Wasim Akram who debuted in 84 and played his last in 02 has only played 104 tests in those 18 or so years.

Now the reason why I had to mention Ishant because I found it hilarious that you were obviously proud of his achievements with your attack on Pakistan bowlers having not gone past 200 wickets in recent years. Let me give you a reality check to end this nonsense once and for all with a hard truth for you.

It took Ishant 65 tests to get 200 wickets which is the 5th slowest of all test bowlers who have reached that milestone - Zaheer was the 4th slowest by 2 tests! Remember not just Pakistan but there are many other sides like NZ who had abundance of quality pacers but they don't play as much as India.

Even though I accept bowling standards in Pakistan went down by some way since 2000 - but lets assume for argument sake Ishant was born on the other side of the border, there is no doubt whatsoever that Ishant would have struggled to retain his first XI spot (after a promising start) and play even half of the number of tests that he has for India so far, because the bowling standard and therefore the level of competition was far greater with the likes of Akhtar and Asif. But according to you these were garbage bowlers and you seem to insinuate that Ishant was better than these guys. Hence why I say RIP logic.

Also I should add there were domestic bowlers around that time who were miles better than Ishant like Aizaz Cheema. If you've actually heard of him he was a skilful and classy bowler who could consistently bowl 90 mph at his peak but still somehow couldn't find a place in intls. When he got the chance to play for Pakistan he was over the hill (as he was well over 30) but was still bowling able to bowl 140 and he still had the magic - as evident from that final over he bowled in the winning Asia Cup campaign.

The level of competition back then was still suffice for Pakistan management to change bowlers as they wished from series to series. Cementing a spot in that team was still no joke but if it takes 65 games to get 200 wickets then I guess it is contrary for India.

dear know it all, there is a very good chance I have been watching cricket longer than you do . so there is no need for name calling..

Pak plays approximately 9 matches per years over the last 20 years.. they have played 177 tests in 20 years. There was not a single pace bowler who was good enough to represent pak in even third of those matches. Even pretty average bowlers like Siddle, Caddick Southee have played around 60 matches and have taken 200+ wickets.. Again the land of pacers was not able to produce one Addick, Siddle or a Southee forget about Philander..

Regarding being proud of Ishant, don't assume things.. I am showing you stats more like showing a mirror to all those thumping chest about being land of pacers.. again whatever way you slice it the land of pacers has not produced a single bowler in the top 25 in the last 20 years.. Two decades is a fairly good time frame where you would have seen around two generation of pacers. none of them were good enough

Forget about competing with bowlers like Steyn, Anderson, Pollock and Nitini, Pak should see if any of their talents can match mortals like Zaheer khan, Morkel and Vaas.. Come back once your mythical talents in your domestics play for Pak for few years and get 200+ wickets..

 

[Gubol123]

Also you'd be lying if you said Zaheer, Srinath and Ishant were better than Shoaib Akhtar.

Talk about cherry picking. I gave you 25 names who have done better than every single pak pacer in last 20 years.. you picked few to fit your agenda.. None of the Indians are chest thumping that they are land of pacers.. The above list also contains Anderson, Mcgrath, Steyn and others.. FGS even an aging walsh on his last legs did better than every single Pak pacer in the last two decades.. I thought Pak was land of pacers and wanted to compare themselves with the best. Looks like you can only chest thump looking at the worst of top 25

Again, not a single pacer good enough to be in top 25 in two decades... whatever logic you apply you expect to see at least one single player from a country proclaiming to be land of pacers over a period of 20 years.

 

[Gubol123]

Look at the amount of matches played by Akhtar and Gul (bloody hell how is he in there?!), and the amount of matches played by other bowlers. Zaheer Khan has played one less test match than Akhtar and Gul combined lol.

Pakistan hasn't played much test cricket and our reliance on spinners between 2007-2017 where no pacer was really given a decent run, has led to this scenario. I'm positively shocked by India's best pace bowler in history Zaheer Khan having a bowling average barely better than Umar Gul. Gul was unfairly thrust to on-and-off lead the Pakistan bowling attack, when he was at best a third seamer.

Sir, don't cherry pick. if you want to look at the matches why not look at Walsh who also played similar number of matches as Akthar and produced much better results. So the land of pacers had no pacer to match an aging Walsh in his last years. If Akthar or Gul did not play more matches it is there problem.. They did not have the professionalism or the talent to survive. Sure Zaheer played as many as Gul and Shoaib combined but he also got close to same amount of wickets they both got.. FGS Akthar being the best of Pak in last twenty years is just a bit better than Cairns who was an allrounder

Again, why does the land of pacers compare themselves to India? why not SA and AUS. Even NZ and Eng has produced more quality pacers than Pak. There is no iota of evidence the Pak has been the land of pacers for last 20 years. They ahve produced three bowling greats same as SA and Pak has not even been able to match SA's second string pacers for more than two decades..

 

[backfootpunch]

dear know it all, there is a very good chance I have been watching cricket longer than you do . so there is no need for name calling..

Pak plays approximately 9 matches per years over the last 20 years.. they have played 177 tests in 20 years. There was not a single pace bowler who was good enough to represent pak in even third of those matches. Even pretty average bowlers like Siddle, Caddick Southee have played around 60 matches and have taken 200+ wickets.. Again the land of pacers was not able to produce one Addick, Siddle or a Southee forget about Philander..

Regarding being proud of Ishant, don't assume things.. I am showing you stats more like showing a mirror to all those thumping chest about being land of pacers.. again whatever way you slice it the land of pacers has not produced a single bowler in the top 25 in the last 20 years.. Two decades is a fairly good time frame where you would have seen around two generation of pacers. none of them were good enough

Forget about competing with bowlers like Steyn, Anderson, Pollock and Nitini, Pak should see if any of their talents can match mortals like Zaheer khan, Morkel and Vaas.. Come back once your mythical talents in your domestics play for Pak for few years and get 200+ wickets..

Yes when you can't accept the truth bring up 7 names who were worse than Wasim, Waqar, Asif, Shoaib et al who all played at some point in the last 20 years. RIP logic once again.

Failed to address my points and conveniently ignored how the level of competition is different to what was in India, so you had to bring other countries to save yourself embarrassment. The chest thumping is from you! If someone pointed out to me Babar Azam is no.1 T20I batsman I would say it's irrelevant because he's not that great and acknowledge the real no.1 to be Kohli which is why I brought in Ishant because you are obviously proud that he has played for India for so long, but if you want to accept these standards then good for you. Unlike you who in the past has made extreme right wing statements conflating politics with cricket on a cricket forum, I don't wear my team's tinted glasses.

You showed your true colours once again when you suggested that Pakistan's success from their bowlers may be attributed to bottle caps rather than giving those ATGs the credit they deserve.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Sir, don't cherry pick. if you want to look at the matches why not look at Walsh who also played similar number of matches as Akthar and produced much better results. So the land of pacers had no pacer to match an aging Walsh in his last years. If Akthar or Gul did not play more matches it is there problem.. They did not have the professionalism or the talent to survive. Sure Zaheer played as many as Gul and Shoaib combined but he also got close to same amount of wickets they both got.. FGS Akthar being the best of Pak in last twenty years is just a bit better than Cairns who was an allrounder

Again, why does the land of pacers compare themselves to India? why not SA and AUS. Even NZ and Eng has produced more quality pacers than Pak. There is no iota of evidence the Pak has been the land of pacers for last 20 years. They ahve produced three bowling greats same as SA and Pak has not even been able to match SA's second string pacers for more than two decades..

Courtney Walsh is a great of the game, while Akhtar and Gul are not. Walsh comes into the discussion when top bowlers in the history of the game are discussed, no shame in Akhtar and Gul not matching him IMO. The reason Pakistan has not been able to produce a bowler with these stats is outlined in my earlier post. We haven't played as much test cricket as England and India do, while we don't give many chances to pacers as consistently as Australia and South Africa due to our cricket being confined to UAE dust bowls. Over reliance on spinners in the recent past has been a major reason in no Pakistani pacer getting a decent run in the team. Gul played as a stop-gap solution and we had Razzaq opening the bowling in Test cricket at times. It was a weird place to be in to be honest and now hopefully it will be better again thanks to the current team management.

High hopes from Amir and Hasan to re-ignite that fire for pace bowling that was heavily damaged in the last decade.

 

[Gubol123]

Courtney Walsh is a great of the game, while Akhtar and Gul are not. Walsh comes into the discussion when top bowlers in the history of the game are discussed, no shame in Akhtar and Gul not matching him IMO. The reason Pakistan has not been able to produce a bowler with these stats is outlined in my earlier post. We haven't played as much test cricket as England and India do, while we don't give many chances to pacers as consistently as Australia and South Africa due to our cricket being confined to UAE dust bowls. Over reliance on spinners in the recent past has been a major reason in no Pakistani pacer getting a decent run in the team. Gul played as a stop-gap solution and we had Razzaq opening the bowling in Test cricket at times. It was a weird place to be in to be honest and now hopefully it will be better again thanks to the current team management.

High hopes from Amir and Hasan to re-ignite that fire for pace bowling that was heavily damaged in the last decade.

Not playing enough test matches is not an excuse sir. Pak played 177 test matches in that period. There are lots of players in that list who played around 60 matches and yet produced better results than any Pak bowler. So if any pak pacer had managed to play even third of the match played by pak he potentially could have done well. As can be seen none did. That is my point. I am not disputing that pak produced some great bowlers in the past. But in the last two decades, which seems to be when majority of PPers have followed live cricket, pak hasn't produced any. Unfortunately not even as good as siddle or a caddick. Regarding Walsh, Yes he was a great bowler and I followed his whole career. But here for this comparison we are only looking at his last few years and even then he was better than every bowler produced by pak. Knowing these facts how can you call pak is a land of pacers?

Regarding Amir and Hassan, Amir is a lost cause in tests and I have a feeling Hassan will have a career similar to Ajit Agarkar

If you want to call any country a land of pacers it has to be undoubtedly SA. They have produced an ATG every eight/nine years and even their second string bowlers are much better than what Pak has produced

 

[Gubol123]

Courtney Walsh is a great of the game, while Akhtar and Gul are not. Walsh comes into the discussion when top bowlers in the history of the game are discussed, no shame in Akhtar and Gul not matching him IMO. The reason Pakistan has not been able to produce a bowler with these stats is outlined in my earlier post. We haven't played as much test cricket as England and India do, while we don't give many chances to pacers as consistently as Australia and South Africa due to our cricket being confined to UAE dust bowls. Over reliance on spinners in the recent past has been a major reason in no Pakistani pacer getting a decent run in the team. Gul played as a stop-gap solution and we had Razzaq opening the bowling in Test cricket at times. It was a weird place to be in to be honest and now hopefully it will be better again thanks to the current team management.

High hopes from Amir and Hasan to re-ignite that fire for pace bowling that was heavily damaged in the last decade.

Regarding the second part of the highlight about UAE being hte reason, look at the stats for 90s and 2010s.. it is exactly same. Apart from known Ws no other bowlers from pak figure in top 25. not a single one.. So even before you guys were forced to play in UAE your production line was empty....

and by the way Hassan ali will most probably be your Ajit Agarkar

 

[Usman Chadda]

Not playing enough test matches is not an excuse sir. Pak played 177 test matches in that period. There are lots of players in that list who played around 60 matches and yet produced better results than any Pak bowler. So if any pak pacer had managed to play even third of the match played by pak he potentially could have done well. As can be seen none did. That is my point. I am not disputing that pak produced some great bowlers in the past. But in the last two decades, which seems to be when majority of PPers have followed live cricket, pak hasn't produced any. Unfortunately not even as good as siddle or a caddick. Regarding Walsh, Yes he was a great bowler and I followed his whole career. But here for this comparison we are only looking at his last few years and even then he was better than every bowler produced by pak. Knowing these facts how can you call pak is a land of pacers?

Regarding Amir and Hassan, Amir is a lost cause in tests and I have a feeling Hassan will have a career similar to Ajit Agarkar

If you want to call any country a land of pacers it has to be undoubtedly SA. They have produced an ATG every eight/nine years and even their second string bowlers are much better than what Pak has produced

Man I was trying to have a serious discussion with you, then you go and come up with that gem. Indian fans can never have a genuine conversation on this forum I have realized. Hasan Ali has achieved more in almost two years than Agarkar did (or could ever dream to lol) in his whole career. The guy won his country an ICC tournament in his first year, skyrocketed to the number one ranking in no time and the same Agarkar was sat on Cricinfo in awe of his bowling performances throughout the tourney. The comparison is so lame, I can't believe I was actually trying to have a genuine discussion with you.

Can't believe I get called out for being a troll here when there are Indian fans being serious and making such ridiculous claims

 

[Gubol123]

Man I was trying to have a serious discussion with you, then you go and come up with that gem. Indian fans can never have a genuine conversation on this forum I have realized. Hasan Ali has achieved more in almost two years than Agarkar did (or could ever dream to lol) in his whole career. The guy won his country an ICC tournament in his first year, skyrocketed to the number one ranking in no time and the same Agarkar was sat on Cricinfo in awe of his bowling performances throughout the tourney. The comparison is so lame, I can't believe I was actually trying to have a genuine discussion with you.

Can't believe I get called out for being a troll here when there are Indian fans being serious and making such ridiculous claims

Let him complete his career and we will see. Agarkar also had the same kind of start. Let him play and let's see who will be right. I have no problem accepting that I was mistaken ifhe turns out to be your waqar.

 

[Gubol123]

Man I was trying to have a serious discussion with you, then you go and come up with that gem. Indian fans can never have a genuine conversation on this forum I have realized. Hasan Ali has achieved more in almost two years than Agarkar did (or could ever dream to lol) in his whole career. The guy won his country an ICC tournament in his first year, skyrocketed to the number one ranking in no time and the same Agarkar was sat on Cricinfo in awe of his bowling performances throughout the tourney. The comparison is so lame, I can't believe I was actually trying to have a genuine discussion with you.

Can't believe I get called out for being a troll here when there are Indian fans being serious and making such ridiculous claims

And by the way good try avoiding all the facts produced and picking up on a tangential comment. Fact is pak has produced not a single ATG pacer apart from three known ones. The last one made his debut almost three decades back. So much for your land of pacers. In the mean time SA has produced multiple ATGs in the same time line and right can claim the title of land of pacers

 

[blackanhyellow]

And by the way good try avoiding all the facts produced and picking up on a tangential comment. Fact is pak has produced not a single ATG pacer apart from three known ones. The last one made his debut almost three decades back. So much for your land of pacers. In the mean time SA has produced multiple ATGs in the same time line and right can claim the title of land of pacers

Three atg fast bowlers is a great achievement. Especially considering those 3 would probably make a lot of neutral's top 10 fast bowlers of all time lists!

Despite not having the same facilities, professional setup, management, or support staff (dietitians, etc...) Pakistan still manages to compete with South Africa, England, Australia. Of course Windies of old was a different story, and their quicks were on a different level in that era.

Top tier: Imran, Wasim, Waqar
Second tier: Shoaib Akhter, Mohammad Asif, Umar Gul, Mohammad Amir

Second tier bowlers werent atg's but were all world class.

Third tier: Abdul Razzaq, Sarfraz Nawaz, Aaqib Javed, Fazal Mahmood,

Fourth tier: Mohammad Irfan, Wahab riaz, Junaid Khan, Azhar Mahmood, Mohammad Sami, Mohammad Zahid, etc...(this list is very long)

To be determined tier: Hasan Ali

Some of those fourth tiers would make some country's world XIs right now

 

[blackanhyellow]

Bro,

World expects Wasims and waqars and Akhtars and Imrans from Pakistan not Amirs or Rahat Ali or even Hassan.

Just like India is expected to produce a Kohli and cannot tom tom Rohit Sharma as its best.

I hope you get what i am saying.

Innocent question.

How many atg batsmen has India produced?

Sachin
Potentially Kohli
Maybe Gavaskar

Who else?

No one expects Sachins and Kohlis from India. You guys were blessed with them, be happy you may never see players like them for a long time.

Just like we will probably not see imran, wasim, waqar type bowlers for a long time.

Just like Aus may never see a shane warne type player for a long time.

So on and so forth.

 

[Gubol123]

Three atg fast bowlers is a great achievement. Especially considering those 3 would probably make a lot of neutral's top 10 fast bowlers of all time lists!

Despite not having the same facilities, professional setup, management, or support staff (dietitians, etc...) Pakistan still manages to compete with South Africa, England, Australia. Of course Windies of old was a different story, and their quicks were on a different level in that era.

Top tier: Imran, Wasim, Waqar
Second tier: Shoaib Akhter, Mohammad Asif, Umar Gul, Mohammad Amir

Second tier bowlers werent atg's but were all world class.

Third tier: Abdul Razzaq, Sarfraz Nawaz, Aaqib Javed, Fazal Mahmood,

Fourth tier: Mohammad Irfan, Wahab riaz, Junaid Khan, Azhar Mahmood, Mohammad Sami, Mohammad Zahid, etc...(this list is very long)

To be determined tier: Hasan Ali

Some of those fourth tiers would make some country's world XIs right now

Your second tire is way below great level. And the last ATG debuted 30 years back. You just listed every possible bowler who got some wickets for pak. Irrespective of how many tiers you define there is not a single bowler produced by pak in the last thirty years who have taken even 200 test wickets. In fact not even half the bowlers in your list has even 100 test wickets. That is the point. All your tier is your own ranking and nothing objective about them. With not a single fast bowler being produced in three decades how do you call pak a land of pacers?

 

[Gubol123]

Innocent question.

How many atg batsmen has India produced?

Sachin
Potentially Kohli
Maybe Gavaskar

Who else?

No one expects Sachins and Kohlis from India. You guys were blessed with them, be happy you may never see players like them for a long time.

Just like we will probably not see imran, wasim, waqar type bowlers for a long time.

Just like Aus may never see a shane warne type player for a long time.

So on and so forth.

Not so innocent way of trying to change the topic. This thread is about whether pak being a land of pacers. I gave you enough evidence that they are not. Not my feelings but actual hard facts. You can of course ignore it and create your tiers where half of them have not even taken 100 test wickets and proclaim that they are the best in the worldnand say pak is land of pacers. That proves nothing

 

[Sachin136]

Innocent question.

How many atg batsmen has India produced?

Sachin
Potentially Kohli
Maybe Gavaskar

Who else?

No one expects Sachins and Kohlis from India. You guys were blessed with them, be happy you may never see players like them for a long time.

Just like we will probably not see imran, wasim, waqar type bowlers for a long time.

Just like Aus may never see a shane warne type player for a long time.

So on and so forth.

Sachin, Kohli, Dravid, Dhoni, and Gavaskar are all bonafide ATG batsmen in one format or another.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Sachin, Kohli, Dravid, Dhoni, and Gavaskar are all bonafide ATG batsmen in one format or another.

Sachin, Potentially Kohli, and Gavaskar. Thats it.

Dhoni and Dravid are not atg's. Definitely world class but not atg. Definitely Indian atg, but not actually atg.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Not so innocent way of trying to change the topic. This thread is about whether pak being a land of pacers. I gave you enough evidence that they are not. Not my feelings but actual hard facts. You can of course ignore it and create your tiers where half of them have not even taken 100 test wickets and proclaim that they are the best in the worldnand say pak is land of pacers. That proves nothing

If you read the post that I was replying to, you would know I wasnt trying to change the subject.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Your second tire is way below great level. And the last ATG debuted 30 years back. You just listed every possible bowler who got some wickets for pak. Irrespective of how many tiers you define there is not a single bowler produced by pak in the last thirty years who have taken even 200 test wickets. In fact not even half the bowlers in your list has even 100 test wickets. That is the point. All your tier is your own ranking and nothing objective about them. With not a single fast bowler being produced in three decades how do you call pak a land of pacers?

Shoaib, Asif, Gul were all world class at their peaks. So I don't know what you are on about.

Go and actually watch their bowling on youtube or something.

 

[Sachin136]

Sachin, Potentially Kohli, and Gavaskar. Thats it.

Dhoni and Dravid are not atg's. Definitely world class but not atg. Definitely Indian atg, but not actually atg.

If you don't think Dravid was an ATG in tests and Dhoni in ODIs, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[blackanhyellow]

If you don't think Dravid was an ATG in tests and Dhoni in ODIs, then I don't know what to tell you.

Dont get me wrong those two along with Yuvraj are my favorite Indian players ever.

But both of them would not make a all time world test XI or an all time world ODI XI.

I would always choose Viv, Sachin, Ponting, Lara as my middle order bats, which leaves no room for Dravid in tests.

And would choose either Gilchrist or Abdv as wicketkeeper batsman in ODIs which leaves no room for Dhoni.

Imran and Wasim make my world XI for both formats.

Not that making a world XI is the only category for becoming an ATG. Its just I dont think those two classify compared to better options.

 

[Sachin136]

Dont get me wrong those two along with Yuvraj are my favorite Indian players ever.

But both of them would not make a all time world test XI or an all time world ODI XI.

I would always choose Viv, Sachin, Ponting, Lara as my middle order bats, which leaves no room for Dravid in tests.

And would choose either Gilchrist or Abdv as wicketkeeper batsman in ODIs which leaves no room for Dhoni.

Imran and Wasim make my world XI for both formats.

Not that making a world XI is the only category for becoming an ATG. Its just I dont think those two classify compared to better options.

Like you said, not making an all time XI doesn't mean they are not ATGs. Wasim and Waqar wouldn't make a world XI in tests over McGrath and Marshall, but that doesn't mean they aren't greats.

But not having Dhoni in an all time XI for ODIs is very strange. He's a better batsman than Gilchrist, and a great captain too. Anyway, that's not the topic.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Like you said, not making an all time XI doesn't mean they are not ATGs. Wasim and Waqar wouldn't make a world XI in tests over McGrath and Marshall, but that doesn't mean they aren't greats.

But not having Dhoni in an all time XI for ODIs is very strange. He's a better batsman than Gilchrist, and a great captain too. Anyway, that's not the topic.

He would make my XI if his captaincy counted because you are right he is a great captain.

But since my XI would have Immy in it, he is the automatic captain choice

 

[Usman Chadda]

And by the way good try avoiding all the facts produced and picking up on a tangential comment. Fact is pak has produced not a single ATG pacer apart from three known ones. The last one made his debut almost three decades back. So much for your land of pacers. In the mean time SA has produced multiple ATGs in the same time line and right can claim the title of land of pacers

I don't want to waste my time with someone who thinks Agarkar was a cricketer to begin with. If you want people to take you seriously, tone down on the chest-thumping and focus on facts. I had no issues with your earlier posts, but this last one makes me think you want to be trolled.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

The land of Pacers needs to get it's act together though. Over the last 3 years, they gave averaged over 34 with the ball in test cricket, only ahead of WI and SL.

 

[IndianFan2018]

Sir, don't cherry pick. if you want to look at the matches why not look at Walsh who also played similar number of matches as Akthar and produced much better results. So the land of pacers had no pacer to match an aging Walsh in his last years. If Akthar or Gul did not play more matches it is there problem.. They did not have the professionalism or the talent to survive. Sure Zaheer played as many as Gul and Shoaib combined but he also got close to same amount of wickets they both got.. FGS Akthar being the best of Pak in last twenty years is just a bit better than Cairns who was an allrounder

Again, why does the land of pacers compare themselves to India? why not SA and AUS. Even NZ and Eng has produced more quality pacers than Pak. There is no iota of evidence the Pak has been the land of pacers for last 20 years. They ahve produced three bowling greats same as SA and Pak has not even been able to match SA's second string pacers for more than two decades..

After all India is land of thundlers and half decent bowlers (read this in PP only), so why chestthumping from land of pacers fans here by comparing with poor Indian bowlers

 

[babajee]

The land of Pacers needs to get it's act together though. Over the last 3 years, they gave averaged over 34 with the ball in test cricket, only ahead of WI and SL.

Which country have we been playing our cricket in? UAE - fast bowling hell.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Which country have we been playing our cricket in? UAE - fast bowling hell.

That would be a valid argument only if your fast men did better in England, Australia,SL,NZ and BD. They haven't.

 

[babajee]

That would be a valid argument only if your fast men did better in England, Australia,SL,NZ and BD. They haven't.

But the strategy over the last 10 years has been to rely on spinners as the wicket taking bowlers. Starting with Ajmal.

 

[IndianFan2018]

But the strategy over the last 10 years has been to rely on spinners as the wicket taking bowlers. Starting with Ajmal.

So, Pak is no more land of pacers. The OP title belongs to SA

 

[Nikhil_cric]

But the strategy over the last 10 years has been to rely on spinners as the wicket taking bowlers. Starting with Ajmal.

Im talking last 3 years buddy. After 2015 World Cup. Pakistan have played with Yasir as the lone spinner even in the UAE on these occasions.

 

[Gubol123]

Shoaib, Asif, Gul were all world class at their peaks. So I don't know what you are on about.

Go and actually watch their bowling on youtube or something.

World class doesn't mean someone is an ATG. Players come players go. How many stayed and actually did something to qualify of as good players over a period of time. 200 wickets for a bowler is like a batsman scoring 5000 runs in his test career. To qualify someone as ATG batsman we see if the batsman has scored at least around 8000 international runs before we weigh their contribution. 200 test wickets is a bare minimum to qualify as an ATG. And the land of pacers had a total zero such pacers in three decades

 

[Gubol123]

Sachin, Potentially Kohli, and Gavaskar. Thats it.

Dhoni and Dravid are not atg's. Definitely world class but not atg. Definitely Indian atg, but not actually atg.

India has nothing to do with the topic of this thread unless we claim that india is the land of pacers.