PakPassion Debate: "Hassan Ali still worth pursuing or a lost talent?" (Junaids, Titan24)

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So could this be the mother of all debates? Everyone ready?

We have [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=142432]Titan24[/MENTION] all set to tell us why Hassan Ali does or does not deserve to be pursued by Pakistan or is he a lost talent?


Over to you gentleman

Others please hold your horses until both contestants have made their final remarks.

 

[Junaids]

I think that Pakistan needs to be extremely cautious with Hasan Ali.

Hasan is basically a 135K bowler who has good skills but is only 5'8 tall. He is also a gifted slogger with the bat.

You need to ask yourself what such a player can achieve.

The shortest successful fast bowlers in recent years were Dale Steyn, Ryan Harris and Malcolm Marshall. But if you stand Hasan Ali next to Harris or Steyn he makes them look like Mohammad Irfan or Curtly Ambrose.

This is a major problem, especially outside Asia and in countries which use the Kookaburra ball. You find in such places that between overs 20 and 80 of a Test there is virtually no reverse swing or conventional swing or seam. Quick bowlers end up reliant on their height and bowling a full length on off-stump to strangle the scoring rate.

But Hasan Ali is too short to fulfil that role, as we saw disastrously in South Africa in early 2019. It was bad enough that in a low-scoring series he averaged 44.50 with the ball (whereas Shaheen averaged 26.66, Amir averaged 23.58 and even Faheem Ashraf averaged 16.50).

But the full extent of the problem was much worse.

Hasan Ali - in a low scoring Test series - had an economy rate of 4.10.

That's the problem that you will always get with a pace bowler as short as Hasan Ali. He will never be able to exercise any control over the scoring rate, so he is at best the fourth seamer outside Asia and the third seamer in Asia.

When I realized that I saw that his only hope of a successful international career is to massively work on his batting. I see all-rounders as falling into three categories:

1. Batting all-rounders like Sobers or Kallis or Stokes who justify a position as a specialist batsman but can also bowl the odd useful spell.

2. Balanced all-rounders like Imran Khan or Andrew Flintoff who are at least 80% good enough to be in the team as either a batsman or a bowler.

3. Bowling all-rounders like Richard Hadlee or Mitchell Johnson who are good enough to be in the team as a specialist bowler, but can also consistently score runs from Number 8 rather than just having a slog and getting out.

To me, Hasan Ali's height cannot ever allow him to be a specialist fast bowler at international level. It disqualifies him.

His only hope of an international future is to spend hours of every single day practicing his batting in the nets, and in particular ensuring that he has a defence which can allow him to bat for hours against the world's best bowlers without getting out. This would make him a useful Test fourth seamer at Number 8, but would also make him a far more valuable white ball cricketer too, as he would shorten the tail considerably.

So all in all, I think that Pakistan's Chief Selector needs to say to him "you will never make it as a specialist bowler, either become a genuine all-rounder or your international career is over".

 

[Titan24]

Hassan Ali is the only Pakistani cricketer after Shahid Afridi (2007 T20 WC) to have won player of the tournament in an ICC's tournament. He is 25 years old and there shouldnt be any doubt the he should be in the radar of national team as you dont get to see a lot of players who if in full form and rythem can win your sides not only matches but tournaments.

That being said I agree Hassan Ali's height isnt much but other than handful surfaces around the world that is not a handicap which cant allow him to have a decent career. Its about the skills he has showed with the bowl when he was at his full rhythm, that pace, zip and movement which he gets from good length.

His last year or two is only remembered by fans for his poor ODIs performances which were definitely really poor but nobody remembers that even during that time he was still pretty good in tests and T20s. Also it can be argued that when he was struggling with form whether he should have been handled the way he was by the management.

I dont remember last Pakistani pacer with an average of under 30 in Tests, ODIs and T20s. In my opinion he should definitely be in the radar as a specialist pacer. Yes if he becomes a bowling all rounder, good enough but still he has showed he is a match winner with the ball on his day. Also not to forget he has taken the most number of wickets for Pakistan in last 3-4 years as pacer across the formats.

His career trajectory will of course e dependent upon his own hard work however, taking into account his CV as of now is should definitely be in the radar and pursued rather than completely writing him off due to poor seasons in ODIs. As said at the start he has done what only one other Pakistani cricketer was able to achieve in history of ICC tournaments and that is to get man of the tournament award.

 

[Titan24]

To back my claim that other than few surfaces if Hasan can get his radar right he can be a match winner in tests as well:

Pak vs NZ (3 Test match series in UAE)



He outperformed taller pacers in Southee, Boult and Shaheen(Though it was his first series). Also not by a small margin, he took almost double the amount of wickets 13 than Boult's 7 in that series in UAE. This shows what he is capable of. Yes if a certain surface on which height can be a handicap and Pak has enough tall quality bowlers he can be rotated.

 

[Junaids]

I find myself wondering about the composition of the Pakistan attack.

I acknowledge that Naseem Shah is as short as Hasan Ali, but he is a once in a generation prospect in terms of his bowling action and skills, as is Shaheen Shah Afridi.

In every format of the game they cover Pakistan in terms of “right-arm express but short” and “left-arm tall and quick”.

The two other pace bowlers that I would want outside Asia, and the one other quick in Asia, need to fit a different profile. With the two Shahs at Numbers Ten and Eleven the other quicks need to be reliable batsmen. Even if this were another country their ability to bat at 7, 8 or 9 would be almost more important than their bowling, but for a country like Pakistan, whose national team is eternally defined by its underperforming top order, those lower-middle order runs are even more important.

I’m not talking about a Shahid Afridi who will slog ten balls and make an occasional 20. I’m talking about someone who will last an average 50 balls at the crease - in other words a 16 over partnership - and extend the innings.

With Naseem and Shaheen as the tailenders I can’t see another opening for Hasan Ali. He needs to improve his batting more than his bowling.

 

[Titan24]

Hasan has shown some skills with the bat and it would be great if he can fine tune them.

Coming to the bowling attack, I think considering the leagues and three different formats its good to have decent bench strength taking into account the style of bowling of each pacer.

I think currently for tests in subcontinental conditions we can have following pacers in the squad:

Abbas
Shaheen
Naseem
Hasan

They can keep it tight and can bowl wicket to wicket and can reverse the ball.

For Eng and NZ, Ehsan Adil and Sameen Gul will be coming into mix as well in the main squad and back up.

For Aus and SA (Which has been a historical struggle for Pakistan) a much more open thought process is required from selection committee as you might need to rotate some experienced bowlers with the ones with height and can hit the deck hard. Maybe:

Shaheen
Hasnain (Hopefully plays a complete domestic season this year he keeps on improving his fitness and lengths)
Naseem
Ehsan Adil
Arshad Iqbal (One of the few Pak pacers in many years who naturally hits the deck hard and has decent height, lets see how he develops)
Sameen Gul
Abbas (If fit and in Rythem to do Philander kind of role)

 

[Junaids]

Hasan has shown some skills with the bat and it would be great if he can fine tune them.

Coming to the bowling attack, I think considering the leagues and three different formats its good to have decent bench strength taking into account the style of bowling of each pacer.

I think currently for tests in subcontinental conditions we can have following pacers in the squad:

Abbas
Shaheen
Naseem
Hasan

They can keep it tight and can bowl wicket to wicket and can reverse the ball.

For Eng and NZ, Ehsan Adil and Sameen Gul will be coming into mix as well in the main squad and back up.

For Aus and SA (Which has been a historical struggle for Pakistan) a much more open thought process is required from selection committee as you might need to rotate some experienced bowlers with the ones with height and can hit the deck hard. Maybe:

Shaheen
Hasnain (Hopefully plays a complete domestic season this year he keeps on improving his fitness and lengths)
Naseem
Ehsan Adil
Arshad Iqbal (One of the few Pak pacers in many years who naturally hits the deck hard and has decent height, lets see how he develops)
Sameen Gul
Abbas (If fit and in Rythem to do Philander kind of role)

I fear that this would make the Pakistan attack rather one dimensional.

Abbas, Naseem and Hasan are all 5'10 or shorter, and all bowl right arm.

That means that opposition batsmen would face a pretty relentless diet of skiddy right-arm bowling coming at them from a low height.

We have seen Justin Langer demote James Pattinson to the reserves' bench on the basis that 6'1 is too short when he has the 6'6 Starc, 6'5 Hazlewood and 6'4 Cummins available.

But Pakistan would fill their attack with guys who are 3-6 inches shorter than Pattinson!

For me, ultimately Hasan Ali is too short and too slow. He can't achieve the potential that Naseem Shah can, and I just don't see a place for him.

 

[Titan24]

I fear that this would make the Pakistan attack rather one dimensional.

Abbas, Naseem and Hasan are all 5'10 or shorter, and all bowl right arm.

That means that opposition batsmen would face a pretty relentless diet of skiddy right-arm bowling coming at them from a low height.

We have seen Justin Langer demote James Pattinson to the reserves' bench on the basis that 6'1 is too short when he has the 6'6 Starc, 6'5 Hazlewood and 6'4 Cummins available.

But Pakistan would fill their attack with guys who are 3-6 inches shorter than Pattinson!

For me, ultimately Hasan Ali is too short and too slow. He can't achieve the potential that Naseem Shah can, and I just don't see a place for him.

Shaheen will obviously start in all the tests in sub continent as well depending upon the work load, rest of the 2 pacers will be out of Naseem, Hasan and Abbas. Yes if Shaheen isnt available then we need to add someone with decent height and skills to replace and to maintain that variety.

We have to realize we dont have a lot of tall skillful pacers who are ready for test cricket at the moment. Even if we try hard to look Ehsan Adil and Sameen Gul have decent height, FC experience and probably skills for test cricket which I think will be really useful on surfaces suited to them.

I dont think in subcontinetal conditions you need a lot of tall bowlers while compromising on skills. If a pacer can ball with decent accuracy and pace targeting the stumps and ability to reverse the old ball, he should be fine in sub continental conditions. I think Shaheen will be enough to give variety of height in sub continent.

For other conditions like Aus and SA I have mentioned in my post that we will have to think out of the box as our usual tactics havent worked even in our bowling department and I have mentioned few names who with their height if they can develop their skills they can be useful in such conditions.

As I have shown in post no 4, Hasan Ali out performed much taller pacers in UAE when the 2nd highest wicket taker Boult had almost half the wickets in comparison to Hasan. This shows that not all conditions can be a handicap if a pacer isnt tall, Aus and SA are the main countries where conditions are such where lack of height can be a problem.

 

[Junaids]

I respect the opinions of [MENTION=142432]Titan24[/MENTION] .

I guess the problem for me is that Pakistan has a lot of short fast bowlers - too many in my opinion - and Hasan Ali and Musa Khan are the shortest and therefore the least viable.

I am open to Hasan Ali’s selection if he can improve - but it’s actually his batting that I think offers him an international future as an all-rounder.

 

[Junaids]

So, to sum up,

1. I think that Hasan Ali, while a highly skilled bowler, is too short and too slow to ever be a frontline Test bowler. In that period from overs 20-80 when a Kookaburra ball is soft and does not reverse he is too short to be able to bowl a stifling off-stump line and strangle the scoring rate.

2. I regret that nobody said this to him before he wasted his life trying to be something that his height means that he never can be. It's as if he had dedicated the last decade to playing NBA basketball, only to discover that 5'8 men cannot be NBA basketball players.

3. That means that Hasan Ali's only hope is to work like a maniac on his batting until he can guarantee the selectors that he can survive a minimum of 20 overs per Test innings at the crease on average, and also bowl 6 overs per session as fourth seamer to give the 3 proper pace bowlers a rest. It's time to stop this slogging nonsense!

 

[Titan24]

I also respect the opinions of [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and as my finishing argument:

-> I would like to mention again that Hasan Ali is the only Pakistani player who has won the man of the tournament trophy after Shahid Afridi and not only that he also won the best bowler of the tournament trophy. It shows its not a common feat and if someone has done that, he shouldnt be pursued with when he is also just 25 and other than couple of poor seasons on ODIs he has been good overall in other formats event in that time.

-> I would like re emphasize on the point that other than couple of countries height is not that big of a handicap. Also its not like we have a lot of tall and lanky pacers who can bowl at high speeds.

-> If Hasan works hard he has the skills to perform both in white ball cricket. One of the few pacers who get swing with the new ball, reverse with the older ball and that too with decent pace.

-> Also not to forget he is better than most our pacers with bat as well which is definitely a plus in modern day cricket in all 3 formats.

So overall I think he should be in the radar as its not often you find players who can win you tournaments which Hasan did only in his 2nd year of international cricket. Its easier to discard players than to make players. Just like any other pacer, Hasan needs to be managed well.

 

[Asifnow]

I think I can reply?

I agree with Titan. Junaids main argument is height and some is greatly exaggerated. If we are to believe he is 5'8'', he isn't far from reported heights of Marshall, Philander etc. I think some of the wording from junaids is like Ali is a dwarf which certainly is not the case. Plus he is in shape and strong.

Titan's arguments are more well rounded and cricket focused. Alis injuries were poorly managed is something I'd add, but his performances in t20s and tests have not been atrocious, plus at just 25 he can easily come back.

 

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