Persecution of Shia Muslims in Pakistan?

[Minnowbasher]

Unfortunately in Pakistan it's the minority muslim or so called Muslim sects such as shias or ahmedis that are targeted the most.
Christians in Pakistan probably have it slightly better than the shias.

 

[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">So this all has started.<br><br>Sipah Sahaba & Tehreek Labbaik Pakistan chanting Kafir Kafir Shia Kafir in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Karachi?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Karachi</a><br><br>Imam Bargah Imamia at Lines Area under attack by the same goons, some pelting on Bargah reported.<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ShiaGenocide?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ShiaGenocide</a> <a href="https://t.co/HD5rUfrBJo">pic.twitter.com/HD5rUfrBJo</a></p>— Syed Hussain Mujtaba Rizvi (@110HussainRizvi) <a href="https://twitter.com/110HussainRizvi/status/1304402325616852992?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>.

What are the authorities doing about these rallies?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

This is extremely disturbing. Its bad enough that Sipah Sahaba a known terrorist group, is involved. However TLP got a 4% of the votes in the last election. Thats even worse as they were the 5th largest party in terms of votes in the 2018 election.

 

[Nostalgic]

This latest flare up could well have a Saudi connection, as punishment for the first of our admittedly halfhearted attempts to distance ourselves from them. That said, for them to fan the flames, the flames have to exist, and that fault is entirely ours.

 

[miandadrules]

The claxon has been sounded for the focus to shift from Ahmedi’s to Shia’s.

 

[saeedhk]

A more appropriate title is Shia Genocide in Pakistan.

Tens of thousands attended anti-Shia rally yesterday. No wonder Pakistan is a hell for minorities.

 

[Pakpak]

This latest flare up could well have a Saudi connection, as punishment for the first of our admittedly halfhearted attempts to distance ourselves from them. That said, for them to fan the flames, the flames have to exist, and that fault is entirely ours.

100% spot on. And we are still letting such nonsense exist. These roaches should be stamped out.

 

[Pakpak]

A big LOL to the hashtags though. #ShiaGenocide my rear. Our founder was Shia, so is the Butto clan who have ruled us for decades. I have Shia extended members on my cousins side, never had a problem in Pakistan. We have a lot of Shia posters here, hadi rizvi being one who says the same.

 

[saeedhk]

A big LOL to the hashtags though. #ShiaGenocide my rear. Our founder was Shia, so is the Butto clan who have ruled us for decades. I have Shia extended members on my cousins side, never had a problem in Pakistan. We have a lot of Shia posters here, hadi rizvi being one who says the same.

How would you explain the murders of at least 6000 -7000 Shias in Pakistan in the 15 years or so. In 2013 alone, 700 Shias were killed. Have you heard of the Hazara genocide? Do you follow the news or do you just watch Haqeeqat TV and Zaid Hamid.

Your line of reasoning is illogical. Using your logic, African Americans do not face any racial injustice in the US because Obama was black or Muslims in India do not face any persecution because their president was a Muslims and there is Muslim representation in Indian parliament.

 

[Nostalgic]

100% spot on. And we are still letting such nonsense exist. These roaches should be stamped out.

Absolutely, but this must be coupled with some introspection on part of the state. We have to acknowledge that a full 20% of the population were antagonized at the behest of the power we are now trying to distance ourselves from, and ask how this transpired.

 

[Hasan]

These groups and their backers will not succeed in the long run. Shi’a Sunni are forever bound by the same principles of faith. We all enter Islam under the banner of Tauheed and Nabooat, which are the only criteria for being a Muslim.

Anyone calling either Sunnis or Shi’as a kafir is an agent of fitna.

 

[uberkoen]

Sectarianism never went away. It's always been there it's just that the targets have been different. In this day and age when people kill each other over religion honestly it begs me to question the mentality of the people.

 

[uberkoen]

So I understand the protests are due to the arrest of some Shia imaams under the blasphemy law because the imam spoke about the baghe fidaq incident and the time when Hazrat Uthman beat up his wife, the Prophet's daughter. Sunni's need a lesson in history it seems.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

So I understand the protests are due to the arrest of some Shia imaams under the blasphemy law because the imam spoke about the baghe fidaq incident and the time when Hazrat Uthman beat up his wife, the Prophet's daughter. Sunni's need a lesson in history it seems.

Sunni Alims are to be blamed for all of the false fantasy Islamic history they present where everything was rosy, everyone were pious and every relations were healthy in early Islamic era. Im a sunni myself but it's embarrassing how many sunni scholars blatantly lie when it comes to early Islamic history. Baghe Fidaq incident led Lady Fatimah(RA) to be angry against the Caliph and she remained so till her death. Ali(RA) pledged his allegiance to the Caliph after 6 months and after his wife died. There are also hadiths were Prophet in his last days wanted to write something so that muslims would never be divided but Hadrat Umar(RA) objected, questioned the sanity of Prophet(look at the arabic word used in the hadith, many translators have been dishonest and translated the part as inflicted by pain) and claimed Quran to be enough for guidance.

Go forward a few days in history and Fidaq incident happens. Here Quran was sidelined and a hadith took precedence. Abu Bakr(RA) said he heard the Prophet say that messengers and Prohets have no inheritance. Thus rejecting the claim of inheritance of Fatimah(RA) who's claim interestingly is supported by the Quran because according to Quran Prophets did have inheritance.

In a nutshell, the need for sunnis is to have honest and pious scholars and not these jahils and terrorists.

 

[uberkoen]

Sunni Alims are to be blamed for all of the false fantasy Islamic history they present where everything was rosy, everyone were pious and every relations were healthy in early Islamic era. Im a sunni myself but it's embarrassing how many sunni scholars blatantly lie when it comes to early Islamic history. Baghe Fidaq incident led Lady Fatimah(RA) to be angry against the Caliph and she remained so till her death. Ali(RA) pledged his allegiance to the Caliph after 6 months and after his wife died. There are also hadiths were Prophet in his last days wanted to write something so that muslims would never be divided but Hadrat Umar(RA) objected, questioned the sanity of Prophet(look at the arabic word used in the hadith, many translators have been dishonest and translated the part as inflicted by pain) and claimed Quran to be enough for guidance.

Go forward a few days in history and Fidaq incident happens. Here Quran was sidelined and a hadith took precedence. Abu Bakr(RA) said he heard the Prophet say that messengers and Prohets have no inheritance. Thus rejecting the claim of inheritance of Fatimah(RA) who's claim interestingly is supported by the Quran because according to Quran Prophets did have inheritance.

In a nutshell, the need for sunnis is to have honest and pious scholars and not these jahils and terrorists.

Indeed. Not sure why there is a need to portray the companions and specially the Caliphs as infallible when they were not.

 

[Lurker_Ind]

These groups and their backers will not succeed in the long run. Shi’a Sunni are forever bound by the same principles of faith. We all enter Islam under the banner of Tauheed and Nabooat, which are the only criteria for being a Muslim.

Anyone calling either Sunnis or Shi’as a kafir is an agent of fitna.

The elevation of Hazrat Ali and his progeny to godly level bugs Sunnis. Not to forget Shias lack of respect for Sahabas.

 

[Nostalgic]

In spite of the aforementioned historical truths, the overwhelming majority of Shia scholars of late have been exhorting their congregations to be mindful of not hurting Sunni sentiments, knowing how any comment can serve as the spark that will ignite the tinderbox. They’re having a hard time reigning in their zakirs though, who aren’t scholars, and predictably, the extremists on the Sunni side are latching on to what was said. Not that they need an excuse though.

 

[uberkoen]

The elevation of Hazrat Ali and his progeny to godly level bugs Sunnis. Not to forget Shias lack of respect for Sahabas.

Shia's narrate historical events that took place which involved the Sahaba's. Muslims around the world are so easily offended. They really need to develop a thicker skin. With regards to what level they elevate Hazrat Ali to that's their belief and they should be left alone and not persecuted over their beliefs. Some sunni sub-sects elevate Hazrat Muhammad to a level which is also akin to shirk.

Let people believe what they want. Live and let live.

 

[uberkoen]

In spite of the aforementioned historical truths, the overwhelming majority of Shia scholars of late have been exhorting their congregations to be mindful of not hurting Sunni sentiments, knowing how any comment can serve as the spark that will ignite the tinderbox. They’re having a hard time reigning in their zakirs though, who aren’t scholars, and predictably, the extremists on the Sunni side are latching on to what was said. Not that they need an excuse though.

Yes, it's the extremists on the both sides that cause the issues. I don't see anything wrong with narrating true historic incidents as long as the language used is kept under control. If history offends Sunni's they should probably lock them selves up in a monastery and disconnect with the world. As mentioned, the other end of the spectrum also exists where extremist Sunni's have some really weird beliefs.

People need to learn to keep their beliefs to themselves or within their own communities and not get offended over every little thing.

 

[Nostalgic]

Shia's narrate historical events that took place which involved the Sahaba's. Muslims around the world are so easily offended. They really need to develop a thicker skin. With regards to what level they elevate Hazrat Ali to that's their belief and they should be left alone and not persecuted over their beliefs. Some sunni sub-sects elevate Hazrat Muhammad to a level which is also akin to shirk.

Let people believe what they want. Live and let live.

The deification of Ali is also something that is being propagated by zakirs, not scholars. Their scholars are at their wits’ end, ripping their hair out, trying to put a stop to this.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The claxon has been sounded for the focus to shift from Ahmedi’s to Shia’s.

Tha claxon has definitely been sounded and is ringing loudly in here to be sure.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yes, it's the extremists on the both sides that cause the issues. I don't see anything wrong with narrating true historic incidents as long as the language used is kept under control. If history offends Sunni's they should probably lock them selves up in a monastery and disconnect with the world. As mentioned, the other end of the spectrum also exists where extremist Sunni's have some really weird beliefs.

People need to learn to keep their beliefs to themselves or within their own communities and not get offended over every little thing.

Agree. Threads like this should be banned.

 

[uberkoen]

Agree. Threads like this should be banned.

There is a difference between discussing and imposing and been debate and violence.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There is a difference between discussing and imposing and been debate and violence.

So when you said

"People need to learn to keep their beliefs to themselves or within their own communities and not get offended over every little thing"

you meant something else?

 

[uberkoen]

So when you said

"People need to learn to keep their beliefs to themselves or within their own communities and not get offended over every little thing"

you meant something else?

No, I meant what I said. People should not impose their beliefs on other nor should they resort to violence when there is a difference in beliefs.

 

[Pakpak]

How would you explain the murders of at least 6000 -7000 Shias in Pakistan in the 15 years or so. In 2013 alone, 700 Shias were killed. Have you heard of the Hazara genocide? Do you follow the news or do you just watch Haqeeqat TV and Zaid Hamid.

Your line of reasoning is illogical. Using your logic, African Americans do not face any racial injustice in the US because Obama was black or Muslims in India do not face any persecution because their president was a Muslims and there is Muslim representation in Indian parliament.

Wow you're dense.

TTP killed thousands of Sunnis and non wahabis in Pakistan in a decade. Even that's not a genocide. Look up what the word genocide means before spouting your nonsense.

Other posters tolerate your bakwaas, I won't.

We have been ruled by Shias, one of our provinces is till ruled by Shias, our founder was Shias. We have them in politics, cricket and every level successfully. Let me know when you have a Muslim politician who has ruled India for more than a decade and Sindh for DECADES like PPP.

If you even go through this thread Shias disagree

I'm done entertaining your utter clueless bakwas so do one before I lose my temper.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No, I meant what I said. People should not impose their beliefs on other nor should they resort to violence when there is a difference in beliefs.

The video shows a protest march, I don't see any violence, although there are some ugly chants reportedly. I think govt needs to bring some clarity that freedom of speech has it's limits. Perhaps there needs to be some new laws drafted outlawing hate speech.

 

[saeedhk]

Wow you're dense.

TTP killed thousands of Sunnis and non wahabis in Pakistan in a decade. Even that's not a genocide. Look up what the word genocide means before spouting your nonsense.

Other posters tolerate your bakwaas, I won't.

We have been ruled by Shias, one of our provinces is till ruled by Shias, our founder was Shias. We have them in politics, cricket and every level successfully. Let me know when you have a Muslim politician who has ruled India for more than a decade and Sindh for DECADES like PPP.

If you even go through this thread Shias disagree

I'm done entertaining your utter clueless bakwas so do one before I lose my temper.

As I have said before, most Sunnis were not killed by TTP because they were Sunnis, they were killed because they were next to a police station, government building, or an army barrack and so were caught in the a bomb blast or a gun attack.

On the other hand, Shias were specifically identified and killed because of their faith. There have been many instances where gunmen forced people who show their ID cards and then murdered them because they were Shias.

You whole argument of Shias being in position of power is the worst fallacy I have ever seen on PP.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

A big LOL to the hashtags though. #ShiaGenocide my rear. Our founder was Shia, so is the Butto clan who have ruled us for decades. I have Shia extended members on my cousins side, never had a problem in Pakistan. We have a lot of Shia posters here, hadi rizvi being one who says the same.

Hold up.

I'll speak for myself. There's no doubt that Quaid was Shia and so are the Bhutto clan. However, I don't see any of them doing efforts to reduce the crap that's going on in the name of a "rally" when really it is a sorry excuse to stoke the flames of sectarian violence on the directions of a certain Arab country, who themselves are the origin of the nasibi extremist sects from the 1800s.

However, I do think that #ShiaGenocide is on the horizon if such "rallies" keep encouraging the layman to go all out against Shias.

Countless famous Shia scholars and poets have lost their lives to this. Janab Mohsin Naqvi, Allama Nasir Abbas, Allama Irfan Haider Abidi, Ustad Sibt e Jafar Zaidi and countless more Shias have lost their lives in the anti-Shia violence specifically during that dog Zia ul Haq's time and during 2007-2014 period especially in Karachi and Quetta.

Shia Genocide has happened before but the situation is wayyyy better now and I don't think Shias, at the moment, feel unsafe. However, there is a feeling of unease and isolation at the lack of criticism for these takfiri rallies distributing certificates of kufr against Shias.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

In spite of the aforementioned historical truths, the overwhelming majority of Shia scholars of late have been exhorting their congregations to be mindful of not hurting Sunni sentiments, knowing how any comment can serve as the spark that will ignite the tinderbox. They’re having a hard time reigning in their zakirs though, who aren’t scholars, and predictably, the extremists on the Sunni side are latching on to what was said. Not that they need an excuse though.

This

And I would like to repeat what the top-level authorities for Shias worldwide, the Grand Ayatollahs, have said:

The public defamation of the 1st 3 Caliphs of Islam and the wives of the Prophet SAWW is HARAM. However, that does not mean that we have left our beliefs or ignored history. We will not publicly speak against the aforementioned figures as some of them are highly revered by the majority of the Ummah and we've decided this to maintain unity and peace among the sects.

BUT

The same luxury has not been afforded to the Banu Umayya. Whoever in the Banu Umayya has fought, by word or sword, against the Ahle Bait is not worthy of respect and stature and will continue to be cursed by us, as has been the case for the past 1380 years.

Hopefully it is clear whom we are not going to speak about and whom we will keep cursing till death.

 

[Pakpak]

As I have said before, most Sunnis were not killed by TTP because they were Sunnis, they were killed because they were next to a police station, government building, or an army barrack and so were caught in the a bomb blast or a gun attack.

On the other hand, Shias were specifically identified and killed because of their faith. There have been many instances where gunmen forced people who show their ID cards and then murdered them because they were Shias.

You whole argument of Shias being in position of power is the worst fallacy I have ever seen on PP.

How many Shias were killed by ID cards?

How is my logic a fallacy when a large chunk of Pakistan has been ruled by someone who apparently are being killed in a genocide?

 

[Pakpak]

Hold up.

I'll speak for myself. There's no doubt that Quaid was Shia and so are the Bhutto clan. However, I don't see any of them doing efforts to reduce the crap that's going on in the name of a "rally" when really it is a sorry excuse to stoke the flames of sectarian violence on the directions of a certain Arab country, who themselves are the origin of the nasibi extremist sects from the 1800s.

However, I do think that #ShiaGenocide is on the horizon if such "rallies" keep encouraging the layman to go all out against Shias.

Countless famous Shia scholars and poets have lost their lives to this. Janab Mohsin Naqvi, Allama Nasir Abbas, Allama Irfan Haider Abidi, Ustad Sibt e Jafar Zaidi and countless more Shias have lost their lives in the anti-Shia violence specifically during that dog Zia ul Haq's time and during 2007-2014 period especially in Karachi and Quetta.

Shia Genocide has happened before but the situation is wayyyy better now and I don't think Shias, at the moment, feel unsafe. However, there is a feeling of unease and isolation at the lack of criticism for these takfiri rallies distributing certificates of kufr against Shias.

Thanks for the reply. I 100% agree such rallies should not be allowed

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Sunni Alims are to be blamed for all of the false fantasy Islamic history they present where everything was rosy, everyone were pious and every relations were healthy in early Islamic era. Im a sunni myself but it's embarrassing how many sunni scholars blatantly lie when it comes to early Islamic history. Baghe Fidaq incident led Lady Fatimah(RA) to be angry against the Caliph and she remained so till her death. Ali(RA) pledged his allegiance to the Caliph after 6 months and after his wife died. There are also hadiths were Prophet in his last days wanted to write something so that muslims would never be divided but Hadrat Umar(RA) objected, questioned the sanity of Prophet(look at the arabic word used in the hadith, many translators have been dishonest and translated the part as inflicted by pain) and claimed Quran to be enough for guidance.

Go forward a few days in history and Fidaq incident happens. Here Quran was sidelined and a hadith took precedence. Abu Bakr(RA) said he heard the Prophet say that messengers and Prohets have no inheritance. Thus rejecting the claim of inheritance of Fatimah(RA) who's claim interestingly is supported by the Quran because according to Quran Prophets did have inheritance.

In a nutshell, the need for sunnis is to have honest and pious scholars and not these jahils and terrorists.

I really appreciate that you, as a Sunni, have the guts to admit and post the bitter parts of our history after Rasool SAWW.

 

[Pakpak]

As I have said before, most Sunnis were not killed by TTP because they were Sunnis, they were killed because they were next to a police station, government building, or an army barrack and so were caught in the a bomb blast or a gun attack.

On the other hand, Shias were specifically identified and killed because of their faith. There have been many instances where gunmen forced people who show their ID cards and then murdered them because they were Shias.

You whole argument of Shias being in position of power is the worst fallacy I have ever seen on PP.

To add, someone like a normal Pakistani who doesn't take arms against Pakistan is as much of an enemy to TTP as Shias.

 

[saeedhk]

How many Shias were killed by ID cards?

How is my logic a fallacy when a large chunk of Pakistan has been ruled by someone who apparently are being killed in a genocide?

Biggest fallacy ever. You have zero knowledge of the subject matter. I suggest that you do some research on this topic. Thanks!

 

[Hasan]

A statement on Shi’a Sunni unity by the senior must Shi’a authority.

http://www.sunnishiaunity.org/en/ayatullah-sistanis-statement/

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

As I have said before, most Sunnis were not killed by TTP because they were Sunnis, they were killed because they were next to a police station, government building, or an army barrack and so were caught in the a bomb blast or a gun attack.

On the other hand, Shias were specifically identified and killed because of their faith. There have been many instances where gunmen forced people who show their ID cards and then murdered them because they were Shias.

You whole argument of Shias being in position of power is the worst fallacy I have ever seen on PP.

Do you know how many times Barelvi were targeted? Are you aware that Barelvi are Sunni?
Do you know that may Sufi Shrines were bombed? Do you know that most people who go to dargahs are Sunni?

Situation was bad for the entire country from 2007 to 2016.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

A statement on Shi’a Sunni unity by the senior must Shi’a authority.

http://www.sunnishiaunity.org/en/ayatullah-sistanis-statement/

Well said. I would like to add this statement from Babur to Humayun

“Ignore the disputations of Shias and Sunnis; for therein is the weakness of Islam…”

https://www.dawn.com/news/1509078

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Yes, it's the extremists on the both sides that cause the issues. I don't see anything wrong with narrating true historic incidents as long as the language used is kept under control. If history offends Sunni's they should probably lock them selves up in a monastery and disconnect with the world. As mentioned, the other end of the spectrum also exists where extremist Sunni's have some really weird beliefs.

People need to learn to keep their beliefs to themselves or within their own communities and not get offended over every little thing.

No the extremist are almost all Sunni, however they are a fringe.

 

[Nostalgic]

This

And I would like to repeat what the top-level authorities for Shias worldwide, the Grand Ayatollahs, have said:

The public defamation of the 1st 3 Caliphs of Islam and the wives of the Prophet SAWW is HARAM. However, that does not mean that we have left our beliefs or ignored history. We will not publicly speak against the aforementioned figures as some of them are highly revered by the majority of the Ummah and we've decided this to maintain unity and peace among the sects.

BUT

The same luxury has not been afforded to the Banu Umayya. Whoever in the Banu Umayya has fought, by word or sword, against the Ahle Bait is not worthy of respect and stature and will continue to be cursed by us, as has been the case for the past 1380 years.

Hopefully it is clear whom we are not going to speak about and whom we will keep cursing till death.

Thanks. If there’s a silver lining in the foreboding dark clouds, it is that more and more Sunnis, myself included, are now willing to consider certain historical realities.

I recall watching an interview with Aitzaz Ahsan where he said that we may not all be Shia, but we’re all nevertheless Hussaini, and I think this statement continues to be true for the majority of Pakistani Sunnis, the sectarian churn of the last four decades notwithstanding.

 

[Pakpak]

Do you know how many times Barelvi were targeted? Are you aware that Barelvi are Sunni?
Do you know that may Sufi Shrines were bombed? Do you know that most people who go to dargahs are Sunni?

Situation was bad for the entire country from 2007 to 2016.

Sadly youre wasting your breath on him

 

[Madplayer]

In college my best friend was a Shia guy. Then i went to a different university than him where my best friend became another Shia guy. Absolutely wonderful and respectful person. This guy later on became my business partner as well. I guess the fact that i am myself quite aware of certain historical realities and am willing to ignore the differences as a Sunni also helps EVEN THOUGH i do find certain things objectionable. I am sure it holds true vice versa as well. You cannot be dry about things and you simply have to overlook certain aspects for the greater good.

I cannot stress enough how important it is to absolutely and completely ignore the ugly past and the differences we have. We have to be a bit mechanical here, strip ourselves off any emotions and choose to ignore certain things. A rudimentary cost-benefit analysis in your mind should tell you that the benefits of it outweight the costs by a country mile. By choosing to clasp on to the differences and hate each other over it, we are simply going to get nowhere but backwards and downwards 6 feet under.

 

[Nostalgic]

In college my best friend was a Shia guy. Then i went to a different university than him where my best friend became another Shia guy. Absolutely wonderful and respectful person. This guy later on became my business partner as well. I guess the fact that i am myself quite aware of certain historical realities and am willing to ignore the differences as a Sunni also helps EVEN THOUGH i do find certain things objectionable. I am sure it holds true vice versa as well. You cannot be dry about things and you simply have to overlook certain aspects for the greater good.

I cannot stress enough how important it is to absolutely and completely ignore the ugly past and the differences we have. We have to be a bit mechanical here, strip ourselves off any emotions and choose to ignore certain things. A rudimentary cost-benefit analysis in your mind should tell you that the benefits of it outweight the costs by a country mile. By choosing to clasp on to the differences and hate each other over it, we are simply going to get nowhere but backwards and downwards 6 feet under.

Either this approach, or the exact opposite, where we debate each and every controversy with an open mind. But I guess our societies haven’t reached that degree of maturity yet.

 

[Madplayer]

Either this approach, or the exact opposite, where we debate each and every controversy with an open mind. But I guess our societies haven’t reached that degree of maturity yet.

The opposite way is in fact the ideal way. Debate, discuss and agree to disagree if that's where the debate leads to. But at the moment, our collective intellect is garbage level and we'll end up slitting each others' throats; more followers of the debaters than actual debaters themselves.

Right now we need to pick up one banner, get under it and stick to it like our lives depend on it (they do) and ignore everything else like programmed robots. Tolerant debates will come later. As things stand today, we'll have to start from scratch. The first thing needed to create a group, sociologically speaking, is unity (i didnt want to use this word because it has been abused badly) based on some shared beliefs. We have got those shared beliefs but our focus is directed towards the differences. Need to focus on commonality. Simultaneous step is to surrender certain "state of nature-esque" rights that one would enjoy outside of this group in exchange of security and certainty within the group.

By the way just reading what i've written makes me feel stupid and utopian given the reality that we live in. Oh well, at least there's some self-awareness.

 

[sweep_shot]

I hope these problems will be resolved.

These internal problems are toxic.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Thanks. If there’s a silver lining in the foreboding dark clouds, it is that more and more Sunnis, myself included, are now willing to consider certain historical realities.

I recall watching an interview with Aitzaz Ahsan where he said that we may not all be Shia, but we’re all nevertheless Hussaini, and I think this statement continues to be true for the majority of Pakistani Sunnis, the sectarian churn of the last four decades notwithstanding.

I always tell all my Sunni friends that I can prove 90% of my faith and beliefs from your books. How is it possible then that our differences are overwhelming our similarities?

First of all, the extremist salafist regime in KSA has really not helped the cause of unity because ever since they've gained followers in Pakistan, it has become almost impossible to have meaningful dialogue/debates/discussions without being declared "gustakh" or "kaafir". Ask your parents or people from the 60s/70s if they ever heard "shia kaafir" chants. I'm sure they didn't because back then we lived cordially and attended each other's gatherings and respected each other.

Secondly, some scholars have decided to close their eyes to parts of history that defy their beliefs. E.g. the sahaba being cordial after Rasool SAWW. They don't want to discuss certain aspects of the 3rd caliphate and never discuss Battle of Jamal or Battle of Siffin because it annihilates their concept of unity in the ummah after Rasool SAWW. The followers of such scholars then blame us and make up stuff about us to make sure people don't take the aforementioned history seriously.

I can go on all day about how and why the differences intensified in the last few decades but some of the names I take will cause controversy so there's no point.

Best case scenario right now is for people to ignore SSP rallies and get on with their lives. Maybe even learn about the difficulties of Ahle Bait after Ashura and their imprisonment.

 

[Nostalgic]

I always tell all my Sunni friends that I can prove 90% of my faith and beliefs from your books. How is it possible then that our differences are overwhelming our similarities?

First of all, the extremist salafist regime in KSA has really not helped the cause of unity because ever since they've gained followers in Pakistan, it has become almost impossible to have meaningful dialogue/debates/discussions without being declared "gustakh" or "kaafir". Ask your parents or people from the 60s/70s if they ever heard "shia kaafir" chants. I'm sure they didn't because back then we lived cordially and attended each other's gatherings and respected each other.

Secondly, some scholars have decided to close their eyes to parts of history that defy their beliefs. E.g. the sahaba being cordial after Rasool SAWW. They don't want to discuss certain aspects of the 3rd caliphate and never discuss Battle of Jamal or Battle of Siffin because it annihilates their concept of unity in the ummah after Rasool SAWW. The followers of such scholars then blame us and make up stuff about us to make sure people don't take the aforementioned history seriously.

I can go on all day about how and why the differences intensified in the last few decades but some of the names I take will cause controversy so there's no point.

Best case scenario right now is for people to ignore SSP rallies and get on with their lives. Maybe even learn about the difficulties of Ahle Bait after Ashura and their imprisonment.

Couldn't agree more.

You're right about Shia-Sunni relations being far more cordial before we sold ourselves off to the Saudis. My paternal grandmother was Shia, and there were other inter-sect marriages (now known as Sushi marriages) in the family, and while not the norm, they were nothing more than mild curiosities rather than being perceived as anything scandalous.

Time are changing though. I know many who are Sunni theologically, but Shia in terms of the veneration of the Ahl-e-Bait, condemnation of the Ummayads and cognizant of the events of Jamal and Siffin and the excesses during the third caliphate. Its a start.

 

[miandadrules]

Tha claxon has definitely been sounded and is ringing loudly in here to be sure.

Yet, you remain deaf to the suffering of those in question.

I think that sums it all up, nicely.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yet, you remain deaf to the suffering of those in question.

I think that sums it all up, nicely.

You must have missed the part where I suggested the govt should bring some clarity that there are limits to free speech and that maybe there should be new laws drafted outlawing hate speech. I would class chants of 'Shia Kaafir' as coming under that classification.

 

[miandadrules]

You must have missed the part where I suggested the govt should bring some clarity that there are limits to free speech and that maybe there should be new laws drafted outlawing hate speech. I would class chants of 'Shia Kaafir' as coming under that classification.

And now you trivialise it.

 

[Minnowbasher]

The "Islamic" republic of Pakistan.
Nothing Islamic about this country - an absolute disgrace to Islam.
Imagine how disgusted the Prophet (SAW) will be with these clowns and filthy animals.

 

[saeedhk]

Do you know how many times Barelvi were targeted? Are you aware that Barelvi are Sunni?
Do you know that may Sufi Shrines were bombed? Do you know that most people who go to dargahs are Sunni?

Situation was bad for the entire country from 2007 to 2016.

The targeting of Barelvi pales in comparison to the targeting of Shias. If you knew the actual situation, you would had heard about the LeJ too. An anti-Shia terror outfit with the second highest body count in Pakistan after the TTP.

 

[miandadrules]

The targeting of Barelvi pales in comparison to the targeting of Shias. If you knew the actual situation, you would had heard about the LeJ too. An anti-Shia terror outfit with the second highest body count in Pakistan after the TTP.

Once Shias are dealt with, the inevitable progression is to barelvi vs deobandi.

This is how violent societies operate.

 

[saeedhk]

Once Shias are dealt with, the inevitable progression is to barelvi vs deobandi.

This is how violent societies operate.

Exactly. But the problem, Pakistanis are reluctant to acknowledge the Shia genocide in Pakistan.

 

[miandadrules]

Exactly. But the problem, Pakistanis are reluctant to acknowledge the Shia genocide in Pakistan.

Why are you surprised?

We’ve denied Bengali genocide
We’ve denied Christian, Hindu and Ahmed Persecution.

We’re denying Hazara persecution.

We will deny all that is to come too.

 

[saeedhk]

Why are you surprised?

We’ve denied Bengali genocide
We’ve denied Christian, Hindu and Ahmed Persecution.

We’re denying Hazara persecution.

We will deny all that is to come too.

Not surprised. Instead of acknowledging the horrible state of minorities in Pakistan, Pakistanis are more interested in the persecution of Muslims in faraway lands. This is a nation that lies t itself!

 

[miandadrules]

Not surprised. Instead of acknowledging the horrible state of minorities in Pakistan, Pakistanis are more interested in the persecution of Muslims in faraway lands. This is a nation that lies t itself!

It is because we don’t acknowledge it, that we continue to repeat it.

We, including me, are guilty, because as a collective, as a society, we are not standing up and demanding that this won’t be carried out under our name.

Once you provide as a safe and secure environment for your citizens is when you truly see that society flourish.

 

[saeedhk]

So it continues...

Shia leader Malik Alamdar Hassan shot dead in Mandi Bahauddin. As always, the state refuses to acknowledge and protect its minorities. We will not hear a word from Imran Khan, Shirin Mazari or any other political leader about this killing.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

The targeting of Barelvi pales in comparison to the targeting of Shias. If you knew the actual situation, you would had heard about the LeJ too. An anti-Shia terror outfit with the second highest body count in Pakistan after the TTP.

Yes that's true, however the situation has gotten alot better. From 2007 through 2014 Pakistan lost over 1,000 civilians per year in terrorist attacks. In 2019 the number of dead was 142. 2019 was the safest year in Pakistan since 2003. Pakistan is on the right track.

https://www.satp.org/datasheet-terrorist-attack/fatalities/pakistan

And everyone in Pakistan has heard of LEJ. They are animals who need to be eradicated. What else can one say about them?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

It is because we don’t acknowledge it, that we continue to repeat it.

We, including me, are guilty, because as a collective, as a society, we are not standing up and demanding that this won’t be carried out under our name.

Once you provide as a safe and secure environment for your citizens is when you truly see that society flourish.

We? You said you are not a Muslim. You yourself are a minority in Pakistan. However in principal you are right, in that Pakistani Muslims need to ensure that non Muslims, and minority Muslim sects are protected.

 

[MenInG]

We? You said you are not a Muslim. You yourself are a minority in Pakistan. However in principal you are right, in that Pakistani Muslims need to ensure that non Muslims, and minority Muslim sects are protected.

Why should we worry about his religion? Focus on his message

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

So it continues...

Shia leader Malik Alamdar Hassan shot dead in Mandi Bahauddin. As always, the state refuses to acknowledge and protect its minorities. We will not hear a word from Imran Khan, Shirin Mazari or any other political leader about this killing.

Bro you are right about a lot of things but what's happening in Pakistan, at this very moment, is not genocide. I don't see any targeted killings that were happening during 2007-2014. Karachi as a city has endured and come out of those dark days.

I can tell you even now Shias would rather have this than the days of pre-2014. Yes there is a lot of hate speech going on but calling it a genocide is exaggeration.

If you spoke up like this before 2014 I think everyone would agree. Alhamdulillah now we have majalis, juloos and milads and mothers aren't worried about whether their sons will come back home in one piece. That fear Alhamdulillah is gone now.

 

[saeedhk]

Shia bank manager shot dead in Islamabad.

Just today, there was a massive anti-Shia rally in Islamabad today.

 

[Nostalgic]

After Karachi, a rally in Islamabad, apparently headed by the ASWJ, and as always, the state finds itself unable or unwilling to stop it from taking place.

 

[saeedhk]

After Karachi, a rally in Islamabad, apparently headed by the ASWJ, and as always, the state finds itself unable or unwilling to stop it from taking place.

The state is in cahoots!

 

[Loralai]

After Karachi, a rally in Islamabad, apparently headed by the ASWJ, and as always, the state finds itself unable or unwilling to stop it from taking place.

Why is IK allowing this to happen under his nose? Why is he powerless to stop extremists?
[MENTION=142451]Mian[/MENTION] [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION]

 

[Bigboii]

This is so sad I thought this only happens in India against Muslims but we are doing it to our fellow countrymen and the language they are using

I know agencies are really sensitive about this sort a stuff (they won't let public speakers discuss what they think is wrong with Shia theology- Engineer Mirza(if someone know him) was saying that he can discuss the wrongs in Sunni theology but if he tries to discuss anything about shias than agencies will have a word with him)

So at one hand they're stopping a civil discussion from taking place and on another hand they are not stopping these morons?

I don't know it's just weird
Maybe their work in Kashmir is stopping the agencies from doing actions against them

 

[saeedhk]

This is so sad I thought this only happens in India against Muslims but we are doing it to our fellow countrymen and the language they are using

I know agencies are really sensitive about this sort a stuff (they won't let public speakers discuss what they think is wrong with Shia theology- Engineer Mirza(if someone know him) was saying that he can discuss the wrongs in Sunni theology but if he tries to discuss anything about shias than agencies will have a word with him)

So at one hand they're stopping a civil discussion from taking place and on another hand they are not stopping these morons?

I don't know it's just weird
Maybe their work in Kashmir is stopping the agencies from doing actions against them

Shia killing has been happening for the last two decades. In the last 12 years, at least 7000 Shias have been killed in bomb or gun attack.

 

[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">FIR registered for inciting violence and sectarian hatred. Ban also being imposed for speaking again in public in the territorial limits of Islamabad <a href="https://t.co/L3BdeurtQW">https://t.co/L3BdeurtQW</a></p>— Muhammed Hamza Shafqaat (@hamzashafqaat) <a href="https://twitter.com/hamzashafqaat/status/1306968296647004160?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 18, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Lurker_Ind]

How can Muslims mend the differences between Shia and Sunni with regards to Sahaba? This is exactly where the split is. Sahaba are not respected and I have seen some videos on social networking sites where Shia really lay into Sahabas.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

How can Muslims mend the differences between Shia and Sunni with regards to Sahaba? This is exactly where the split is. Sahaba are not respected and I have seen some videos on social networking sites where Shia really lay into Sahabas.

Check post #110

 

[MenInG]

ISLAMABAD: Escalating sectarian violence in the country set off alarm bells in the Senate with the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) urging the government to swiftly act to arrest the dangerous trend.
Speaking on a point of public importance regarding the alarming escalation in hate campaigns and sectarian violence against the Shia community in Pakistan, PPP’s parliamentary leader in the Senate Senator Sherry Rehman said: “Twenty per cent of Pakistan’s Muslim population is Shia. We are reeling under a new surge of sectarian violence which is targeting Shias across the country and threatening new rounds of instability.”

She said there has been an alarming surge in targeted killings of Shias over the last month. “According to some sources there have been 20 such cases where Shias were targeted on the basis of their faith, but it’s extremely shocking that this issue is not being raised,” she added.

Observing that the wave of sectarian violence in Pakistan was extremely dangerous, she said: “All of us agree that to become a peaceful democratic society we cannot let such extremism and intolerance exist within us. It is crucial that the government gives a policy statement and takes action.”

“Rallies targeting Shia Muslims are being orchestrated by proscribed terror groups on our roads where hate slogans are chanted. This is an extremely sensitive matter which needs to be dealt with immediately. Our people have sacrificed a lot to eradicate terrorism from Pakistan,” said Ms Rehman.

Sherry in Senate points to surge in killings

Stressing religious tolerance, she said, “This is Jinnah’s Pakistan who said ‘you are free, you are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the state’. The federal government needs to protect these basic rights as Shias are also the citizens of this country. Their rights are enshrined in our constitution like every citizen. Muslim or non-Muslim, every citizen should have the equal protection of the law.”

“Our Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) always respected and protected anyone who was vulnerable and gave them space. We seek to be a progressive, inclusive country and such incidents will only tarnish our image in the world,” she added.

The senator said all citizens have equal rights under the Constitution and it was a collective duty to ensure it. “Whatever the risk, it’s important that we raise our voice for the vulnerable and take action over it. It is also responsibility of majorities to ensure all citizens are protected and guaranteed their constitutional rights.”

“This issue is a part of the National Action Plan, but nothing is being done about it. We all need to sit together and come up with an action plan to curb this issue before it escalates even more. The federal government also needs to urgently address the alarming increase in sectarian violence,” she said.

In response, Jamiat Ulema-i-Islam-Fazl’s Senator Abdul Ghafoor Haidri said what was happening was a reaction to disparaging remarks against Sahaba (Companions of Prophet Muhammad PBUH).

He regretted that no action was taken over the objectionable speeches with disrespectful remarks against Sahaba in televised gatherings in Karachi and Islamabad on Ashura. He said belief in all the Sahaba was part of “our faith”.

The matter was referred by Senate Chairman Sadiq Sanjrani to the Senate Standing Committee on Interior.

The house was prorogued sine die.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1580447/rising-sectarian-tension-prompts-calls-for-govt-to-act-swiftly

 

[The Viper]

Banned outfit's leader booked for fanning sectarianism at Islamabad rally

Islamabad police registered a first information report (FIR) against a central leader of the proscribed Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamaat (ASWJ) for inciting the attendees of a rally in the capital by using sectarian and anti-Shia remarks, it emerged on Saturday.

The remarks were made during the Azmat-i-Sahaba march, which was organised by the Muttahida Sunni Council at Islamabad's Express Chowk on Thursday. The march was attended by 1,900-2,000 participants, according to the FIR, which was registered on the complaint of Islamabad city magistrate Ghulam Murtaza Chandio.

According to the FIR registered at Kohsar police station, a copy of which is available with Dawn, ASWJ leader Masoodur Rehman Usmani has been booked under Section 295-A (deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs) of the Pakistan Penal Code.

The FIR stated that by using inappropriate language, Usmani had fanned sectarianism among the public and had incited them.

Editorial: It is incumbent upon the state and ulema to play their roles to prevent sectarian hatred from spreading

The registration of the FIR was first reported by Islamabad Deputy Commissioner Mohammad Hamza Shafqaat, who in a tweet on Friday said a speaker at the rally was booked for "inciting violence and sectarian hatred".

Shafqaat said a ban was also being imposed on the ASWJ leader for "speaking again in public in the territorial limits of Islamabad".

The Islamabad DC had earlier told Dawn that the group had been given a no-objection certificate (NOC) to stage the event in response to their request, along with instructions to follow standard operating procedures (SOPs).

Police and administration officials had said at the time that an agreement was made between the city administration and the Muttahida Sunni Council under which participants would follow SOPs for marches and processions.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1580532/b...d-for-fanning-sectarianism-at-islamabad-rally

 

[Abdullah719]

ISLAMABAD: Escalating sectarian violence in the country set off alarm bells in the Senate with the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) urging the government to swiftly act to arrest the dangerous trend.

What did they do about the rallies in Karachi?

All talk, as usual.

 

[Justcrazy]

Sunni Alims are to be blamed for all of the false fantasy Islamic history they present where everything was rosy, everyone were pious and every relations were healthy in early Islamic era. Im a sunni myself but it's embarrassing how many sunni scholars blatantly lie when it comes to early Islamic history. Baghe Fidaq incident led Lady Fatimah(RA) to be angry against the Caliph and she remained so till her death. Ali(RA) pledged his allegiance to the Caliph after 6 months and after his wife died. There are also hadiths were Prophet in his last days wanted to write something so that muslims would never be divided but Hadrat Umar(RA) objected, questioned the sanity of Prophet(look at the arabic word used in the hadith, many translators have been dishonest and translated the part as inflicted by pain) and claimed Quran to be enough for guidance.

Go forward a few days in history and Fidaq incident happens. Here Quran was sidelined and a hadith took precedence. Abu Bakr(RA) said he heard the Prophet say that messengers and Prohets have no inheritance. Thus rejecting the claim of inheritance of Fatimah(RA) who's claim interestingly is supported by the Quran because according to Quran Prophets did have inheritance.

In a nutshell, the need for sunnis is to have honest and pious scholars and not these jahils and terrorists.

I agree that sunni scholars are also wrong on occasions , but the problem with shia zakirs is that they pick up hadeeth which suits them , and reject the same bukhari which does not suit them

For example you said Prophet wanted to write down something important, in bukhari it is written what he intended to write, why take one portion and reject the rest?

No doubt Umar RA was wrong in that case , but when we judge people we have to be fair

Even in shia Ghali there are people who are abusing and insulting wives of prophet and saying Aisha RA is in hell. Tell me did Imam Ali AS do this ? Did he abuse and curse the khalifas or wives of prophet?

So , by cursing and abusing , are shias following Ali or are they following Muawiyah ?

 

[Justcrazy]

Indeed. Not sure why there is a need to portray the companions and specially the Caliphs as infallible when they were not.

That is the problem, both Shias and Sunnis need to understand that let alone companions or ahle bayat , even prophets are not infallible in worldly matters

 

[Justcrazy]

The elevation of Hazrat Ali and his progeny to godly level bugs Sunnis. Not to forget Shias lack of respect for Sahabas.

There are sunni groups who do the same for prophet , elevate him to Godly status , but that does not provoke the killing of that group ?

Also , there has to be made a difference between being critical of companions and cursing them , both are not same. Even the Quran and Hadeeth has materials against companions.

 

[Loralai]

Which political parties and leaders have called out the violence and expressed solidarity with the Shia community (other than AWP)?

Can someone please tell me what Imran Khan and PTI's response has been?

 

[saeedhk]

Which political parties and leaders have called out the violence and expressed solidarity with the Shia community (other than AWP)?

Can someone please tell me what Imran Khan and PTI's response has been?

Immy has turned out to be a very gutless person. He is always looking to please the right-wingers. All these two-bit politicians need to learn to be selfless like Jibran!

 

[saeedhk]

In the last 10 days or so days, at least 4 Shias have been gunned down. But nobody is willing to acknowledge the persecution of minorities in the land of pure.