[PICTURES/VIDEOS] Joe Root - following his career trajectory

[therealAB]

he performed vs top teams (india and australia) at his peak.
facing best bowling in 1993? according to whom?

bowlers of current era are just as great if nmot greater. We don't know for sure.

Different era comparisons again. It's pointless to compare era's.
You play who is in front of you.

Root is one of the best of the modern era. Period.

Basically eberyone thinks that best best fast bowling was early 90's. Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Hadlee, Akram, Younis, Donald etc and 2nd stringers like Fraser, McDermott, Dev etc. Pretty commonly held view that this period was the strongest for bowling

Ok, one of the best of the modern era, I can live with that, just don't say of all time if not prepared to accept that other era's played cricket decently

He performed decently against the top teams, but not brilliantly. What years do you consider his peak to be, so we can have a proper conversation

 

[Ab Fan]

he performed vs top teams (india and australia) at his peak.
facing best bowling in 1993? according to whom?

bowlers of current era are just as great if nmot greater. We don't know for sure.

Different era comparisons again. It's pointless to compare era's.
You play who is in front of you.

Root is one of the best of the modern era. Period.

He has done nothing of worth in Australia on pitches where home team in the last 5-6 years have scored up 400-500 every inning. Root responses it back with his trademark half century and that doesn't help England post a great total. In India, he did the same thing. Indians would post 500-600 and Root would respond it with half centuries

His best performance was Ashes 2015 at home and he deserves credit for that but outside that if you look at away performances, you can't think of many series where he dominated the batting. He is same as Williamson although latter is arguably the greatest captain of his generation across formats.

 

[Smudger]

Root is averaging 37.66 in his last 28 tests. I am afraid 28 tests is too long a time for just a slump. Root hasnt really dominated a series. He is just good for a 50 which doesnt really change the course of a test match. Ben Stokes is comfortably a better batter than him in last 2 years.
Though I still think root can come back. He just has to borrow Stokes temprament. He has shown that he can make daddy hundreds but he too often gets out playing away from body. He is capable to get his average back to 50. Just needs a change in attitude. He has to rediscover hunger for runs

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Needs to be relieved of captaincy duties.

Buttler Test captain, Stokes vice.

I think captaincy will have the opposite effect on Buttler and help him elevate his game, while Stokes has the perfect temperament for a vice captain but probably not for a captain.

Buttler is barely hanging on by a thread to his place in the side and you want to make him captain? I mean It's bad enough he's still playing after his atrocious performance in the first test. The guy has zero credibility as a test batsman and shouldn't be anywhere near this format

Stokes is the only one who can actually measure up to the responsibility of captaincy and not let it affect his performance.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Joe Root - Alzarri Joseph's bunny?

Joseph has got him out in 4 of his last 5 innings against West Indies. Definitely seems to be doing something right. Also thought it would be fun to bump this when Joseph got him out again.

 

[pratiktc]

Yes he is in a mid career slump but Lara also went through the same and came out shining.

Root is an extremely talented batsman and will most likely return to ATG standards soon. He is also the youngest of the big 4.

Even if he doesn't he is still one hell of a batsman. 48 avg is nothing to scoff at.

 

[Hitman]

Yes he is in a mid career slump but Lara also went through the same and came out shining.

Root is an extremely talented batsman and will most likely return to ATG standards soon. He is also the youngest of the big 4.

Even if he doesn't he is still one hell of a batsman. 48 avg is nothing to scoff at.

Exactly. An average of 48 odd with 17 centuries after 92 Tests is brilliant performance.

 

[Robert]

Root is averaging 37.66 in his last 28 tests. I am afraid 28 tests is too long a time for just a slump. Root hasnt really dominated a series. He is just good for a 50 which doesnt really change the course of a test match. Ben Stokes is comfortably a better batter than him in last 2 years.
Though I still think root can come back. He just has to borrow Stokes temprament. He has shown that he can make daddy hundreds but he too often gets out playing away from body. He is capable to get his average back to 50. Just needs a change in attitude. He has to rediscover hunger for runs

This is a bloke with nineteen test hundreds before his thirtieth birthday.

He just has to give up the captaincy and the runs will flow again. Most England captains experience a loss of form when made skipper.

 

[Robert]

Stokes is the only one who can actually measure up to the responsibility of captaincy and not let it affect his performance.

How do you know? He got out twice in the forties when set. Then after giving up the armband, hits 176 immediately.

No more Bothams, no more Flintoffs. Let Stokes be Stokes.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Totally agree with [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] on making Buttler test captain, as I'm positive it will elevate his game while allowing Root to focus on batting. Suspect it would be the equivalent of England making Morgan limited overs captain five years ago.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

How do you know? He got out twice in the forties when set. Then after giving up the armband, hits 176 immediately.

No more Bothams, no more Flintoffs. Let Stokes be Stokes.

I don't but how do you really know about anyone until you've given them a go? I just feel he's that good and someone who has the single-mindedness to succeed as a leadership figure.

One test doesn't prove anything. And I actually thought his performance in the first test was quite good. Keeping in mind the conditions and the pitch. He was very good with the ball and on a pitch where a number of batsmen struggled --no one got a hundred-- he crossed 40 twice. He's not superman and he sure as hell doesn't get to play every test on a flat Old Trafford road where he will come out and smash 176 everytime. Not to take anything away from his brilliant knock ofcourse.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

How do you know? He got out twice in the forties when set. Then after giving up the armband, hits 176 immediately.

No more Bothams, no more Flintoffs. Let Stokes be Stokes.

Stokes would have to take a real deep-dive to reach Botham's level. Although I think Botham was somewhat unlucky with the injuries, especially towards the end of his career. Flintoff on the other hand was never any good to begin with. A one hit wonder who is immortalized only in English folklore.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Exactly. An average of 48 odd with 17 centuries after 92 Tests is brilliant performance.

root is one of those players where stats don't do him justice. He is in the class of Pietersen. When he retires, he will go down as England's best batsman of all time and one of the greatest ever of the modern era.

 

[therealAB]

root is one of those players where stats don't do him justice. He is in the class of Pietersen. When he retires, he will go down as England's best batsman of all time and one of the greatest ever of the modern era.

Please change this to England’s greatest batsmen of the modern era if you aren’t not willing to consider older players

 

[tyron_woodley]

Please change this to England’s greatest batsmen of the modern era if you aren’t not willing to consider older players

Pietersen in my opinion is better than any English player I have ever come across. He is the best English player of all time. Well south african import turned English Great.

Root, yes will be the amongst the top 5 greatest english batsmen of all time which also includes the past ATGs too. He is that good. Since we can't compare him to past greats, I would say he would be top 5 in the post 80s era.

It's sad how imports from other countries become Goats of English cricket.

Even in the world cup win they had stokes (n.z ethnicity - well forefathers may have been convicts of English heritage).
Then there is Rashid (bangla ? ), roy (saffer), archer (w.indies).

 

[Mamoon]

Pietersen in my opinion is better than any English player I have ever come across. He is the best English player of all time. Well south african import turned English Great.

Root, yes will be the amongst the top 5 greatest english batsmen of all time which also includes the past ATGs too. He is that good. Since we can't compare him to past greats, I would say he would be top 5 in the post 80s era.

It's sad how imports from other countries become Goats of English cricket.

Even in the world cup win they had stokes (n.z ethnicity - well forefathers may have been convicts of English heritage).
Then there is Rashid (bangla ? ), roy (saffer), archer (w.indies).

Adil Rashid is of Pakistani descent.

 

[Robert]

Stokes would have to take a real deep-dive to reach Botham's level. Although I think Botham was somewhat unlucky with the injuries, especially towards the end of his career. Flintoff on the other hand was never any good to begin with. A one hit wonder who is immortalized only in English folklore.

I was talking about the effect of captaincy on Botham and Flintoff. I don’t want to see Stokes’ game fall apart in the same way.

Stokes is currently batting at the same level as Botham did 1981-3 and long may it continue.

In 2003-5, Flintoff was the best cricketer in the world. He took a long time to reach that potential so his bowling figures had a big drag factor on them.

After 2005 his batting went into decline due to cumulative injuries though he was still an effective opening bowler. Luminaries such as Kallis and Langer rated him because when really on form he made them look like tailenders. He didn’t have many days like that though.

 

[Varun]

England find it the hardest to produce a batsman who averages over 50, or a bowler who averages below 25.

 

[tyron_woodley]

England find it the hardest to produce a batsman who averages over 50, or a bowler who averages below 25.

England play in very swing friendly conditons though. Maybe their batting averages are lower due to playing in such pitches? But then some of the greats from other countries still average well over 50 in England anyway so I suppose that's not a valid excuse. You should always be used to your home pitches.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

England find it the hardest to produce a batsman who averages over 50, or a bowler who averages below 25.

Inabilty to produce 50 + averaging batsmen is undersatndable considering that they have to bat in conditions that aid seam/swing a lot but they should be producing bowlers who average sub-25.

 

[shamaan]

Inabilty to produce 50 + averaging batsmen is undersatndable considering that they have to bat in conditions that aid seam/swing a lot but they should be producing bowlers who average sub-25.

Same can be said regarding india or asain conditions were it spins massively

 

[shamaan]

England play in very swing friendly conditons though. Maybe their batting averages are lower due to playing in such pitches? But then some of the greats from other countries still average well over 50 in England anyway so I suppose that's not a valid excuse. You should always be used to your home pitches.

Agreed with you regarding home pitches

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Same can be said regarding india or asain conditions were it spins massively

No it can't. Seaming pitches are the hardest to bat on. India is a good place to bat. Only day 4 onwards it gets hard to bat usually. You do get the rogue underprepared pitch once in a while but generally its easier to bat in India than in England.

 

[Varun]

England play in very swing friendly conditons though. Maybe their batting averages are lower due to playing in such pitches? But then some of the greats from other countries still average well over 50 in England anyway so I suppose that's not a valid excuse. You should always be used to your home pitches.

Plus, James Anderson - their greatest bowler ever - averages 26.87.

If conditions were the factor they should have a flood of bowlers hitting the watermark of below 25.

The rest of the world in all this time have produced Tendulkar, Kallis, Lara, Ponting, Sangakkara, Steyn, McGrath, Warne, Murali etc.

England give out MBEs to Michael Vaughan.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I was talking about the effect of captaincy on Botham and Flintoff. I don’t want to see Stokes’ game fall apart in the same way.

Stokes is currently batting at the same level as Botham did 1981-3 and long may it continue.

In 2003-5, Flintoff was the best cricketer in the world. He took a long time to reach that potential so his bowling figures had a big drag factor on them.

After 2005 his batting went into decline due to cumulative injuries though he was still an effective opening bowler. Luminaries such as Kallis and Langer rated him because when really on form he made them look like tailenders. He didn’t have many days like that though.

It's a risk but one that England will have to consider if Root fails to deliver. So far he has been alright but not all that impressive. His batting tho has definitely regressed.

I get why people compare Stokes to Botham and Flintoff but I don't think they should make this comparison. Stokes is more fit than any of those two were for most of their careers. He doesn't have the same drinking problems nor is he prone to the same erratic rise and decline in form. Also, Beefy was 5 years younger than Stokes when he was captain in 80-81. So there is a difference.

Flintoff had some great years during period but I don't know if he was necessarily the best cricketer the world. He wasn't exactly topping any charts. Hoggard and Harmison were still taking more wickets than him and guys like Vaughan, Trescothick, Butcher, Thorpe were scoring more runs than him. 2005 ironically was actually a pretty lean year with the bat for him but ofcourse he excelled with the ball. For me though its just hard to forget the times when he was overweight, hungover before a World Cup match and just useless as an all-rounder altogether. He was far too erratic to be even considered as a good all-rounder in my book. But I can understand why he is remembered so much.

 

[Manunited18]

No comparison between stokes and flintoff, stokes is a far superior cricketer.

 

[Aman]

Most overrated cricket player in world cricket, by far. Possibly ever.

Complete myth.

 

[Robert]

Inabilty to produce 50 + averaging batsmen is undersatndable considering that they have to bat in conditions that aid seam/swing a lot but they should be producing bowlers who average sub-25.

A lot do average below 25 at home. But the wickets help them so they lack certain skills overseas bowlers learn such as slower balls. Also the English system does not produce many fast bowlers, because the soft wickets promote accurate medium pace rather than real pace. So people like Anderson get exposed overseas.

 

[Robert]

Plus, James Anderson - their greatest bowler ever - averages 26.87.

If conditions were the factor they should have a flood of bowlers hitting the watermark of below 25.

The rest of the world in all this time have produced Tendulkar, Kallis, Lara, Ponting, Sangakkara, Steyn, McGrath, Warne, Murali etc.

England give out MBEs to Michael Vaughan.

Vaughan was our best skipper since Brearley and won the Ashes back after 16 awful years. His team had fourteen wins for two losses in twenty-one tests.

Anderson is far from our best bowler ever. It would be like claiming that Walsh was better than Marshall and Ambrose because he took more wickets.

 

[Robert]

It's a risk but one that England will have to consider if Root fails to deliver. So far he has been alright but not all that impressive. His batting tho has definitely regressed.

I get why people compare Stokes to Botham and Flintoff but I don't think they should make this comparison. Stokes is more fit than any of those two were for most of their careers. He doesn't have the same drinking problems nor is he prone to the same erratic rise and decline in form. Also, Beefy was 5 years younger than Stokes when he was captain in 80-81. So there is a difference.

Flintoff had some great years during period but I don't know if he was necessarily the best cricketer the world. He wasn't exactly topping any charts. Hoggard and Harmison were still taking more wickets than him and guys like Vaughan, Trescothick, Butcher, Thorpe were scoring more runs than him. 2005 ironically was actually a pretty lean year with the bat for him but ofcourse he excelled with the ball. For me though its just hard to forget the times when he was overweight, hungover before a World Cup match and just useless as an all-rounder altogether. He was far too erratic to be even considered as a good all-rounder in my book. But I can understand why he is remembered so much.

Flintoff had three phases.

Firstly 1998-2002 when he was used as a stock bowler by Nasser, bowling long, bruising back of a length fast medium containing stuff, not taking many wickets, and thumping fifty here and there. He carried too much weight.

Secondly 2003-2005 when he dropped the excess pounds, upped his pace, and scored all his five centuries.

Lastly 2006-2009 when various injuries wore him down. His batting declined as he could not get all the way forward. But the pace was still there and he took the new ball, delivering long brave spells and discomfiting really good batsmen.

He was also England’s best ever ODI player.

 

[Varun]

Vaughan was our best skipper since Brearley and won the Ashes back after 16 awful years. His team had fourteen wins for two losses in twenty-one tests.

I hope in my lifetime England graduate to a team which promotes players who focus on lengthy, 10-15 year careers in both formats of the game versus 2-series wonders like the mediocre Michael Vaughan (Test avg 41, ODI avg 27).

If other teams had the same mentality, Sri Lanka would have peaked out at Marvan Atapattu and Aravinda de Silva, and not produced Sangakkara. Australia would have been content with Mark Waugh and Michael Slater, and not produced Ponting.

Anderson is far from our best bowler ever. It would be like claiming that Walsh was better than Marshall and Ambrose because he took more wickets.

Yes he is England's best bowler ever. But his average after 150+ tests is kissing 27. What's up, when his contemporaries (Steyn, McGrath) are better than him after arguably bowling in more difficult conditions than seam friendly England.

 

[Varun]

I re-iterate: England find it the hardest to produce a batsman who averages over 50, or a bowler who averages below 25.

 

[therealAB]

Yes he is England's best bowler ever. But his average after 150+ tests is kissing 27. What's up, when his contemporaries (Steyn, McGrath) are better than him after arguably bowling in more difficult conditions than seam friendly England.

Trueman is McGrath, Marshall, Hadlee tier. He is England's greatest bowler, although Sydney Barnes could run him close depending on how you rate him

 

[Varun]

Trueman is McGrath, Marshall, Hadlee tier. He is England's greatest bowler, although Sydney Barnes could run him close depending on how you rate him

Somebody who was born in 1873 and played all of 27 tests? Puh-lease.

I don't know who Trueman is either, but probably another no-name of the same vintage.

I repeat: the rest of the world has been producing ATG batsmen and bowlers like Tendulkar, Kallis, Lara, Ponting, Sangakkara, Steyn, McGrath, Warne, Murali etc. What is England's response?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Flintoff had three phases.

Firstly 1998-2002 when he was used as a stock bowler by Nasser, bowling long, bruising back of a length fast medium containing stuff, not taking many wickets, and thumping fifty here and there. He carried too much weight.

Secondly 2003-2005 when he dropped the excess pounds, upped his pace, and scored all his five centuries.

Lastly 2006-2009 when various injuries wore him down. His batting declined as he could not get all the way forward. But the pace was still there and he took the new ball, delivering long brave spells and discomfiting really good batsmen.

He was also England’s best ever ODI player.

I think the 2006-09 period would have been better had it not been for the injuries. Was he not made captain as well during this time? Still I struggle to remember him as a memorable figure from any period other than 2005.

I mean I guess you could call him England's best ever ODI player. Although some would say Pietersen. The bar has always been very low for England until now. I think once Morgan retires he will unequivocally have that honor.

 

[therealAB]

Somebody who was born in 1873 and played all of 27 tests? Puh-lease.

I don't know who Trueman is either, but probably another no-name of the same vintage.

I repeat: the rest of the world has been producing ATG batsmen and bowlers like Tendulkar, Kallis, Lara, Ponting, Sangakkara, Steyn, McGrath, Warne, Murali etc. What is England's response?

Barnes is the bloke with 7 wickets a test at a ridiculous rate, considered the GOAT bowler by almost all who saw him (and also saw O'Reilly, Davo, Trueman, Lindwall etc)

Trueman bowled in one of the most batting-friendly era's of all time, had a strike rate that eclipses everyone else in history in regards to their contemporaries. Was the leading test wickettaker, with over 300 wickets for a while.

These two players are two absolute icons who any reasonable cricket enthusiast has heard of. I'd advise you to spend a bit of time reading and learning about the game

 

[Varun]

These two players are two absolute icons who any reasonable cricket enthusiast has heard of. I'd advise you to spend a bit of time reading and learning about the game

I guarantee 95% of folks on this forum alone haven't heard or care about the 2 players you speak of. Use a time turner and bring out that bloke who supposedly bowled in "batting friendly conditions" to present day, and let's see how baffled he'll be.

We are here and now, and my point on England cricket's mediocrity stands. Joe Root is merely the latest chapter in what is a never ending story of contemporary batsmen unable to average above 50, and having a few home test wins over Australia get to his head.

 

[therealAB]

I guarantee 95% of folks on this forum alone haven't heard or care about the 2 players you speak of. Use a time turner and bring out that bloke who supposedly bowled in "batting friendly conditions" to present day, and let's see how baffled he'll be.

We are here and now, and my point on England cricket's mediocrity stands. Joe Root is merely the latest chapter in what is a never ending story of contemporary batsmen unable to average above 50, and having a few home test wins over Australia get to his head.

at least 80% of posters will have at least heard about them. They may not care, that is fine, but to not have heard of them displays a level of ignorance.

He was also a very good commentator in after his playing days, his honesty similar to Boycott's

Richie Benaud rated his as one of his best - he is obviously a highly respected pundit

He obviously bowled in batting friendly conditions. The bowling strike rate was 77.8, compared to today's 61
Trueman's strike rate was 49.4. To match his strike rate with regards to his contemporaries, a bowler today would have to strike at 39 - significantly ahead of even Rabada who has set records for his strike rate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXtQc8V4ZtQ. Look at this for some footage and to admire the great man

 

[Nikhil_cric]

A lot do average below 25 at home. But the wickets help them so they lack certain skills overseas bowlers learn such as slower balls. Also the English system does not produce many fast bowlers, because the soft wickets promote accurate medium pace rather than real pace. So people like Anderson get exposed overseas.

I wouldn't say its a lack of skill. Jimmy is an extremely skilled bowler. Bowling at the pace that he was bowling, he should have been smashed in places like Australia and the UAE. But he is quite skilled and uses cutters and reverse swing quite well. Its the lack of pace or the ability to maintain it is what is affecting England. South Africa has conditions conducive to swing and seam and the English bowlers generally do well over there. The wickets certainly need to be changed. Flat wickets should be prepared. England anyway use the Dukes ball so bowlers should be able to adjust. Also I think they need to get rid of the depndency on Anderson. Should invest in Olly, saqib etc.

 

[Varun]

Runs himself out for 17 today.

 

[The Viper]

Joe Root has been run out four times since 2018.

No other player has been run out more in that time

 

[King_Kohli]

Once upon a time



Now

 

[The Viper]

Another disappointing innings for Root - just 14 off 58 balls.

 

[Firebat]

Continuing his decline. Can't handle the pressure anymore it seems.

 

[shamaan]

Continuing his decline. Can't handle the pressure anymore it seems.

Maybe drop one position down to number 4 and pope at number 3

 

[Varun]

Gets out for a middling 42 today.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

He's dropping compared to his old standards. Maybe he needs to give up captaincy.

 

[James]

Actually 42 in these conditions was pretty decent, he looked fluent, and he was dismissed by a very good piece of bowling. Not an outstanding performance by any means, but he did make an important contribution in helping to see off the new ball and being one half of the second biggest partnership.

And as captain he has led a dressing room which just chased down an extremely tricky target after being repeatedly written out of the game.

There are many days to criticise him legitimately, but this is probably not one of them.

 

[tyron_woodley]

exactly 42 is solid. He set them up.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Once upon a time

View attachment 102401

Now

View attachment 102402

Respect to Kohli for turning his test career around.

I had genuinely given up on him ever averaging 50+ at some point.

 

[Varun]

Gets out for 29 today.

His scores this series: 14, 42, 9* and 29 so far.

 

[Ab Fan]

England conditions are toughest to bat. We must add +7 Average to England batters for balancing the nature of the game. That was unplayable delivery to Joe50.

Gooch 49
Atherton 44
KP 57
Root 54
Stokes 45

 

[tyron_woodley]

England conditions are toughest to bat. We must add +7 Average to England batters for balancing the nature of the game. That was unplayable delivery to Joe50.

Gooch 49
Atherton 44
KP 57
Root 54
Stokes 45

not really. Many great batsmen from other countries have managed to average above 45 in England. So no excuses.

 

[Varun]

England conditions are toughest to bat. We must add +7 Average to England batters for balancing the nature of the game. That was unplayable delivery to Joe50.

Gooch 49
Atherton 44
KP 57
Root 54
Stokes 45

England find it the hardest to produce bowlers who average below 25 too.

 

[Indiafan]

England conditions are toughest to bat. We must add +7 Average to England batters for balancing the nature of the game. That was unplayable delivery to Joe50.

Gooch 49
Atherton 44
KP 57
Root 54
Stokes 45

Sachin averages 54.5 in England

Dravid averages 69

Ganguly averages 65

Lol at toughest to bat

 

[Bhaijaan]

England conditions are toughest to bat. We must add +7 Average to England batters for balancing the nature of the game. That was unplayable delivery to Joe50.

Gooch 49
Atherton 44
KP 57
Root 54
Stokes 45

Let's add +15 to batting average of visiting batsmen for being made to bat in such unplayable alien conditions.

While we are at it, we must also +1 win for visiting teams per 3 match series to account for the heavily one sided conditions. +1.5 wins per 5 match series

 

[Bhaijaan]

Sachin averages 54.5 in England

Dravid averages 69

Ganguly averages 65

Lol at toughest to bat

So Sachin effectively averages 69, Ganguly 79 and Dravid 83

 

[therealAB]

England conditions are toughest to bat. We must add +7 Average to England batters for balancing the nature of the game. That was unplayable delivery to Joe50.

Gooch 49
Atherton 44
KP 57
Root 54
Stokes 45

Why do all these player be have comparatively poor away records

 

[James]

Root has been on the rough end of some of the truly wicked seaming deliveries in this series. His dismissals have not always been his fault. Nevertheless his runs return seems to diminish by the year. Another specialist captain!

 

[Slog]

Root has been on the rough end of some of the truly wicked seaming deliveries in this series. His dismissals have not always been his fault. Nevertheless his runs return seems to diminish by the year. Another specialist captain!

Why were Broad or Anderson ever even considered for captaincy!?

 

[tyron_woodley]

Why do all these player be have comparatively poor away records

all rubbish. plenty of great players have averaged over 50 in England.

home grown players should be familiar with home conditions so stat padding shouldn't apply here as many of these batsmen have averaged just as bad overseas barring a select few.

Just excuses. English batsmen are just not good enough overall. Anyway things have changed now. England at home with their current side is a very formidable team. I am impressed. Shutting down pakistan the way they have managed to do is very astonishing to see.

 

[Ab Fan]

Let's add +15 to batting average of visiting batsmen for being made to bat in such unplayable alien conditions.

While we are at it, we must also +1 win for visiting teams per 3 match series to account for the heavily one sided conditions. +1.5 wins per 5 match series

No. Precisely, we should add +5 batting average to visiting team batsmen ( because they play only 15-20 tests in England) and +15 to England batsmen.

So,

Gooch 57
Atherton 52
KP 62
Cook 60
Root 62
Stokes 53
Buttler 48

Tendulkar 58.5
Ganguly 70
Dravid 74

 

[Ab Fan]

Why do all these player be have comparatively poor away records

It is because they have developed their game such that they are not able to score runs and dominate opposition on flat wickets away from home. Hence, their away records may not be all that flash.

They have to accomodate to soft England wickets and play against the Duke bowl. The result is that they are unable to get those big hundreds on good batting wickets like what Crawley did yesterday. England should play on these wickets more often, the result will be that Joe Root will be a superior batsmen to Virat Kohli and Kane Williamson and as good as Steve Smith.

 

[Ab Fan]

No. Precisely, we should add +5 batting average to visiting team batsmen ( because they play only 15-20 tests in England) and +15 to England batsmen.

So,

Gooch 57
Atherton 52
KP 62
Cook 60
Root 62
Stokes 53
Buttler 48

Tendulkar 58.5
Ganguly 70
Dravid 74

I mean +5 to their career averages. Ganguly 47, Dravid 57, Tendulkar 58.

 

[tyron_woodley]

It is because they have developed their game such that they are not able to score runs and dominate opposition on flat wickets away from home. Hence, their away records may not be all that flash.

They have to accomodate to soft England wickets and play against the Duke bowl. The result is that they are unable to get those big hundreds on good batting wickets like what Crawley did yesterday. England should play on these wickets more often, the result will be that Joe Root will be a superior batsmen to Virat Kohli and Kane Williamson and as good as Steve Smith.

root can play anywhere he wants. he would never be as good as kohli. He can even take any amounts of ped's etc but it won't make him kohli.

it's smith and kohli

then the rest follow.

Just like how you believe English players can adapt to flat wickets, i would not be surprised if the Asian players play just as well if not better should they get acclimated to English conditions for first class cricket.

 

[tyron_woodley]

being able to perform vs Asian spinners and Asian fast bowlers with reverse swing potency is no where near the same as being able to smash Pakistani and other Asian bowlers in flat wickets under English conditions. Totally different ball game. Soil, the cracks, the ball, surface, outfield, weather, moisture, dew factor all make a humongous difference.


the same bowlers from pakistan would absolutely annihilate England in u.a.e.

 

[therealAB]

It is because they have developed their game such that they are not able to score runs and dominate opposition on flat wickets away from home. Hence, their away records may not be all that flash.

They have to accomodate to soft England wickets and play against the Duke bowl. The result is that they are unable to get those big hundreds on good batting wickets like what Crawley did yesterday. England should play on these wickets more often, the result will be that Joe Root will be a superior batsmen to Virat Kohli and Kane Williamson and as good as Steve Smith.

So they develop their games to home wickets. Smith and Kohli do >>> Root in England, where root has specifically adjusted his game to. I do not see how Root > Kohli and equal to Smith. He is nowhere near that good

 

[therealAB]

No. Precisely, we should add +5 batting average to visiting team batsmen ( because they play only 15-20 tests in England) and +15 to England batsmen.

So,

Gooch 57
Atherton 52
KP 62
Cook 60
Root 62
Stokes 53
Buttler 48

Tendulkar 58.5
Ganguly 70
Dravid 74

Given they play away as well you are basically adding 30 to their batting in England. The English batting average is only like 2/3 runs below the rest of the world

 

[therealAB]

It is because they have developed their game such that they are not able to score runs and dominate opposition on flat wickets away from home. Hence, their away records may not be all that flash.

They have to accomodate to soft England wickets and play against the Duke bowl. The result is that they are unable to get those big hundreds on good batting wickets like what Crawley did yesterday. England should play on these wickets more often, the result will be that Joe Root will be a superior batsmen to Virat Kohli and Kane Williamson and as good as Steve Smith.

Also to add, getting big hundreds on batting wickets is all about concentration not technique. Root's failure to score hundreds is caused by his lapses in concentration, not any technical flaws brought about by adapting to English conditions

 

[Mamoon]

He got an unplayable delivery by an average bowler. You can call that bad luck.

It would have got anyone out.

 

[Ab Fan]

Also to add, getting big hundreds on batting wickets is all about concentration not technique. Root's failure to score hundreds is caused by his lapses in concentration, not any technical flaws brought about by adapting to English conditions

Exactly that's the point. In England conditions, you are never in irrespective of technical flaws. It always takes one bowl to get you out. It's always hard work for batsmen there while in India, Australia and Pakistan, the pitches are flat with true bounce. Once your eyes are in, batsmen go on and hit big hundreds comfortably.

England conditions are actually similar to Day 5 pitches of Indian wickets(unless its a rank turner which turns from Day 1), it's always about that one ball which has your name written.

We must give some brownie points to England batters for batting on those conditions.

 

[Indiafan]

Exactly that's the point. In England conditions, you are never in irrespective of technical flaws. It always takes one bowl to get you out. It's always hard work for batsmen there while in India, Australia and Pakistan, the pitches are flat with true bounce. Once your eyes are in, batsmen go on and hit big hundreds comfortably.

England conditions are actually similar to Day 5 pitches of Indian wickets(unless its a rank turner which turns from Day 1), it's always about that one ball which has your name written.

We must give some brownie points to England batters for batting on those conditions.

As I told you in the otjer thread, multuple sub continent batsmen average over 60 in england. This is just an excuse

 

[therealAB]

Exactly that's the point. In England conditions, you are never in irrespective of technical flaws. It always takes one bowl to get you out. It's always hard work for batsmen there while in India, Australia and Pakistan, the pitches are flat with true bounce. Once your eyes are in, batsmen go on and hit big hundreds comfortably.

England conditions are actually similar to Day 5 pitches of Indian wickets(unless its a rank turner which turns from Day 1), it's always about that one ball which has your name written.

We must give some brownie points to England batters for batting on those conditions.

Some brownie points is different to 15. Along those lines, Anderson is a 41 averaging bowler which is just wrong
You still refuse to discuss how batsmen like Smith, Dravid, Tendulkar, Waugh etc have done very well in England, in many cases better than their regular performance
Please respond to my critique of your abysmal Root = Smith > Kohli post

 

[Bhaijaan]

He might retire in a year or two if this declining graph continues.

 

[Ab Fan]

Some brownie points is different to 15. Along those lines, Anderson is a 41 averaging bowler which is just wrong
You still refuse to discuss how batsmen like Smith, Dravid, Tendulkar, Waugh etc have done very well in England, in many cases better than their regular performance
Please respond to my critique of your abysmal Root = Smith > Kohli post

I am not refusing to discuss anything here. Tendulkar, Dravid, Smith and Waugh are great players which is why they have done well in England but they have played much lesser cricket in England conditions than their home conditions. Can we say that if Rahul Dravid played for England, he would have averaged 69 over his entire career? The answer is clearly No.

That 15 Avg claim was in response to another imaginary claim, I am not saying to add 15 average to their stats, if you read my first post, I said +6 or +7. So, basically, we do agree that England batters and maybe South Africans deserves few brownie points, right?

So, preferably even if we add +2 or +3, Root is a 50 averaging batsmen?

 

[therealAB]

I am not refusing to discuss anything here. Tendulkar, Dravid, Smith and Waugh are great players which is why they have done well in England but they have played much lesser cricket in England conditions than their home conditions. Can we say that if Rahul Dravid played for England, he would have averaged 69 over his entire career? The answer is clearly No.

That 15 Avg claim was in response to another imaginary claim, I am not saying to add 15 average to their stats, if you read my first post, I said +6 or +7. So, basically, we do agree that England batters and maybe South Africans deserves few brownie points, right?

So, preferably even if we add +2 or +3, Root is a 50 averaging batsmen?

You said that Root = Smith and >> Kohli, that is the outrageous claim that you are not defending
Adding 6/7 makes no sense, as half their games are away. That is adding 15 to their home averages
Your claim about learning to bat in English conditions makes no sense. If they do not have the technique to do well overseas that if their own claim
All players to well in home conditions, and that is no difference in England. All places have different challenges - English batsmen always struggle with bounce in Australia most notably. Unless it is a crazy example, there should be no scaling done. Recently, the only possible example would be SA, where batting has been significantly harder than in England. Even then I would add a max 4/5 runs to home average which is about 2 to overall average

 

[tyron_woodley]

You said that Root = Smith and >> Kohli, that is the outrageous claim that you are not defending
Adding 6/7 makes no sense, as half their games are away. That is adding 15 to their home averages
Your claim about learning to bat in English conditions makes no sense. If they do not have the technique to do well overseas that if their own claim
All players to well in home conditions, and that is no difference in England. All places have different challenges - English batsmen always struggle with bounce in Australia most notably. Unless it is a crazy example, there should be no scaling done. Recently, the only possible example would be SA, where batting has been significantly harder than in England. Even then I would add a max 4/5 runs to home average which is about 2 to overall average

English csnt play bounce or real spin.

 

[Mueez]

Root always gets a peach of a delivery.

I like him as a cricketer!

 

[shamaan]

Root always gets a peach of a delivery.

I like him as a cricketer!

He used to be an excellent player but now hes average

 

[shamaan]

He got an unplayable delivery by an average bowler. You can call that bad luck.

It would have got anyone out.

Tbh average player now used to be really good