Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him): The best of all creation and leader of mankind

[Suleiman]

All this what you mentioned here did you read yourself , or you heard from some sunni scholar? Please give an honest reply. If I am not mistaken this is what late israr Ahmed said? Am I right ?

What I said is well documented by many of the classical scholars of Islam not just “some Sunni scholar”

I don’t really follow Israr Ahmed although I am aware of him.

Like I said, if we go into this discussion, best to do it in a different thread. This is a different topic than what the OP is about.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

If someone calls Aisha as doing that sin , then that person is disbeliever , because he is speaking against the ayat of the Quran. So , in this case the evidence is present , it is not an emotional thing.

Now as far as I know , I have never heard any shia scholar accuse Aisha of this , yes they disagree with her stance of fighting in the battle of Jamal. Which I also disagree with , she was wrong in that instance . There are authentic evidence , which I can share if required.

But one thing I would like you to research is who were the people who made the accusation on Aisha initially in that instance , kindly find out , I am sure it will surprise you.

As for other words that you added with Abu bakr and Umar is concerned , you can call that misguidance . I understand that for a sunni upbringing this sounds very insulting , but there are several factors which are involved. First shia literature does not praise them , secondly even in sunni literature there are things which are highly debatable about them. Thirdly they do not consider them as companions in the sense sunnis define.

So for a layman shia we cannot give fatwas like that. Also keep ion mind abusing some companions does not make anyone disbeliever. Abusing is sin , not kufr.

As far as Yasir qadhi is concerned , I think you are his big fan. yes , he and several other scholars do give references. A real debater is one who gives evidence from both sides and then lets the audience decide . Even Ahmadis give evidence !

By the way I can show you one lecture of Mr Yasir where he did not give evidence , just spoke . You want to hear that?

No I am not a Yasir Qadhi fan. Like I said I have primarily listened to Dr Israr and Omar Suleiman's lectures mostly. And my favorite topics are usually the bayaans. For example, a few weeks ago, I was listening to Omar Suleiman's lecture regarding what being saabir means for a muslim. In which he talked about prophet yusuf (as) and prophet ibrahim (as).

In the same way, yes it doesn't make them a disbeliever, but to abuse companions of our beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW and abusing them is definitely a sin. for example this is a verified sahih hadith, Sahih Bukhari book 57,
Volume 5, Book 57, Number 9:

Narrated Aiyub:

The Prophet said, "If I were to take a Khalil, I would have taken him (i.e. Abu Bakr) as a Khalil, but the Islamic brotherhood is better."

Even after knowing it, if someone nauzubillah calls them a kafir or abuse them, and still call themself a muslim is a hypocrite and idiot.

I have nothing against Shia ism. and I want the relations between both Sunnis and Shias to be good and brotherly. But we have to accept that there are people who take it to extreme on both sides. Actually I am even against the sub division of Sunnis into different maslak etc.

Regarding sahaba, I think one thing we should accept that no human other than the prophets are free from sin. So having faults in personalities in a human is natural. One doesn't need to hold it against the Sahaba. Only the messengers and the prophets are the greatest humans without any faults. You have to see them as human and no Sahabi can be compared to a prophet. Actually I have even seen people (Sunnis) going into dispute saying Hazrat Hasan and Hussain were greater than Prophet Isa (AS) and Prophet Yahya (As).

I don't know why you attributed me to be a big fan of Yasir Qadhi. I actually like those scholars who have spent years attaining Islamic education from verified sources rather than every other person in subcontinent who claims himself to be a scholar of Islam just because he watched a few tik tok clips.

My favorite topics are usually about learning about other Prophets. for example life of Prophet Isa As. Life of Prophet Ibrahim AS.

 

[Suleiman]

If someone calls Aisha as doing that sin , then that person is disbeliever , because he is speaking against the ayat of the Quran. So , in this case the evidence is present , it is not an emotional thing.

Now as far as I know , I have never heard any shia scholar accuse Aisha of this , yes they disagree with her stance of fighting in the battle of Jamal. Which I also disagree with , she was wrong in that instance . There are authentic evidence , which I can share if required.

But one thing I would like you to research is who were the people who made the accusation on Aisha initially in that instance , kindly find out , I am sure it will surprise you.

As for other words that you added with Abu bakr and Umar is concerned , you can call that misguidance . I understand that for a sunni upbringing this sounds very insulting , but there are several factors which are involved. First shia literature does not praise them , secondly even in sunni literature there are things which are highly debatable about them. Thirdly they do not consider them as companions in the sense sunnis define.

So for a layman shia we cannot give fatwas like that. Also keep ion mind abusing some companions does not make anyone disbeliever. Abusing is sin , not kufr.

As far as Yasir qadhi is concerned , I think you are his big fan. yes , he and several other scholars do give references. A real debater is one who gives evidence from both sides and then lets the audience decide . Even Ahmadis give evidence !

By the way I can show you one lecture of Mr Yasir where he did not give evidence , just spoke . You want to hear that?

Doesn’t matter if you disagree with it or not, Rasullullah SAW said to be careful when saying things like this about the sahaba RA. Tabiu’un can be criticized like Yazid, but not Sahaba:

Do not abuse my companions, for if one of you were to spend the weight of mount Uhud in gold it would not surpass a small amount of their charity or even half of that. (Bukhari)

Let alone for someone who he PBUH himself said was the most dearest to him of all mankind.

And then you go on to hint at criticizing Umar and Abu Bakr RA… you are really treading the line here. None of this is acceptable conduct when talking of the Sahaba May Allah be pleased with them.

So that paves the way for the question, are you yourself Shia?

 

[uppercut]

I mean is Upanishads an authority for you ?

Yes, but not unquestioningly. While the Upanishads hold profound spiritual wisdom, some teachings in our sacred texts may not align with modern life in 2025. Unlike Abrahamic faiths, Hinduism’s flexibility allows us to embrace Dharmic beliefs like Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism.

Our driving quest is to attain moksha (liberation from the cycle of rebirth) ... fueled by spiritual practices and philosophies that have stood the test of time.

 

[Justcrazy]

Yes, but not unquestioningly. While the Upanishads hold profound spiritual wisdom, some teachings in our sacred texts may not align with modern life in 2025. Unlike Abrahamic faiths, Hinduism’s flexibility allows us to embrace Dharmic beliefs like Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism.

Our driving quest is to attain moksha (liberation from the cycle of rebirth) ... fueled by spiritual practices and philosophies that have stood the test of time.

So , if all these scriptures are not aligning with modern times , do you have new versions of these scriptures?

 

[Justcrazy]

What I said is well documented by many of the classical scholars of Islam not just “some Sunni scholar”

I don’t really follow Israr Ahmed although I am aware of him.

Like I said, if we go into this discussion, best to do it in a different thread. This is a different topic than what the OP is about.

Just for reference I will tell you one very very simple thing. If you read through different hadeeth books and I mean sunni hadeeth books , you will find them minutely discussing several things. If This person called Ibn Saba was such a great person who managed to fool so many companions of that time during the time of Uthman , then we must find something about him , but I am yet to come across a single reference for this extraordinary man. The sad thing is that , all this has been done to hide something. Now , do not get me wrong , I am not saying this genius did not exist , but he had NO role in the uthman case. he emerged during Ali time , and was punished himself.

 

[Justcrazy]

No I am not a Yasir Qadhi fan. Like I said I have primarily listened to Dr Israr and Omar Suleiman's lectures mostly. And my favorite topics are usually the bayaans. For example, a few weeks ago, I was listening to Omar Suleiman's lecture regarding what being saabir means for a muslim. In which he talked about prophet yusuf (as) and prophet ibrahim (as).

In the same way, yes it doesn't make them a disbeliever, but to abuse companions of our beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW and abusing them is definitely a sin. for example this is a verified sahih hadith, Sahih Bukhari book 57,
Volume 5, Book 57, Number 9:

Even after knowing it, if someone nauzubillah calls them a kafir or abuse them, and still call themself a muslim is a hypocrite and idiot.

I have nothing against Shia ism. and I want the relations between both Sunnis and Shias to be good and brotherly. But we have to accept that there are people who take it to extreme on both sides. Actually I am even against the sub division of Sunnis into different maslak etc.

Regarding sahaba, I think one thing we should accept that no human other than the prophets are free from sin. So having faults in personalities in a human is natural. One doesn't need to hold it against the Sahaba. Only the messengers and the prophets are the greatest humans without any faults. You have to see them as human and no Sahabi can be compared to a prophet. Actually I have even seen people (Sunnis) going into dispute saying Hazrat Hasan and Hussain were greater than Prophet Isa (AS) and Prophet Yahya (As).

I don't know why you attributed me to be a big fan of Yasir Qadhi. I actually like those scholars who have spent years attaining Islamic education from verified sources rather than every other person in subcontinent who claims himself to be a scholar of Islam just because he watched a few tik tok clips.

My favorite topics are usually about learning about other Prophets. for example life of Prophet Isa As. Life of Prophet Ibrahim AS.

Well , you may not be , but you like to quote Mr Yasir. He is a popular person these days on youtube. Recently I watched a few of his lectures , and found him interesting.

Abusing any Muslim is a sin , which holds true for companions as well.

The hadith you quoted is a sunni hadith , and as sunni you consider Abu bakar as companion , so knowing that if you call him kafir , then certainly the kufr will be back on you ( here I mean not you literally but using you as second person ).

Now , if someone calls him kafir , not believing him to be a Muslim , there we can have tawil.

The reason is , that once a person informed Mecca Mushriks about the prophet planning to attack them. A letter from a companion was found who was about to inform the meccans about this. Now Umar wanted to kill that companion saying that he is a hypocrite. Umar was right , that did amount to treason helping the enemies. The Prophet stopped him saying that Allah has forgiven the companions of badr. This was a badri companion.

Now , the main point is that if we say that by calling someone kafir , one becomes one , then what happens here to Umar ? The answer is No umar is not a hypocrite, because he did not call him munafiq without a tawil , there was a reason , though it was false.

The prophet forgave that companion , because his intention was not to harm islam but to safeguard his family. If the same thing had happened after the death of the prophet during the reign of Umar , he would have killed that person , because now he had to go by circumstantial evidence without support of revelation.

The mistakes of sahaba is a light way to say things , when we say they had a difference of opinions. Ali fought three major battles in his life , Jamal , Siffin and Narwahan . And behind all his wars we have authentic narrations of the prophet , that is why I said he was right. If there were No hadith , then we could have had our personal opinions. Remember thousands of Muslims died , this is battle , not a difference of opinion.

But yes , whether it was Aisha or talha or Zubair they realized their mistakes and repented for that , except Yazeed father. Also Zubair and Talha are in ashra Mubashra , and off course Aisha is wife of the prophet.

I do not think any sunni scholar would be saying that Hassan and Hussain were better than Isa or yahya , I think you had some misunderstanding, if you tell me the source I can see it.

Yes , they have spend years studying , but i brought up yasir Qadhi , because you said he always speaks with references , which is not true. There are lectures where he does not give any references , in fact makes narrative against well authenticated hadith .

 

[uppercut]

So , if all these scriptures are not aligning with modern times , do you have new versions of these scriptures?

Yes but I wouldn't call them versions but instead nuanced commentaries by great philosophers and thinkers like Swami Vivekananda (lookup him up). There are many saints like him.

 

[Justcrazy]

Doesn’t matter if you disagree with it or not, Rasullullah SAW said to be careful when saying things like this about the sahaba RA. Tabiu’un can be criticized like Yazid, but not Sahaba:


Let alone for someone who he PBUH himself said was the most dearest to him of all mankind.

And then you go on to hint at criticizing Umar and Abu Bakr RA… you are really treading the line here. None of this is acceptable conduct when talking of the Sahaba May Allah be pleased with them.

So that paves the way for the question, are you yourself Shia?

I really do not know what you are talking about. Brother , what I am saying is from hadeeth authenticated by salafi hadeeth scholars. It is there responsibility to check the narrators not mine. If you find any of my saying here which not a single m
Muhaddith has said authentic , then certainly you have a case against me.

Now can you tell me exactly what wrong I said here ?

Islam is Not a blind faith , it is based on evidences , not emotions. Otherwise there will be no difference between Islam and other cults.

Also , since you like to use this term sahaba a lot , can you kindly enlighten us all here , what do you mean by sahaba , I mean how to you define who falls under this category and who does not ?

 

[Justcrazy]

Yes but I wouldn't call them versions but instead nuanced commentaries by great philosophers and thinkers like Swami Vivekananda (lookup him up). There are many saints like him.

Brother , commentaries are not the main text. Commentaries and not shruti . here we are speaking about main texts.

 

[Bhaijaan]

In Hinduism, we do not regard prophets very highly as we have Avatars who are the divine incarnation of the God itself.

There is where Sanatani spirituality is levels above because where Jesus said he was the son of God, where Mohammad PBUH said he was the chosen messenger of God, Sudarshna Chakra Dhaari Murli Manohar Devaki Nandan Sri Krishna said he was God himself - the greatest of all time.

 

[uppercut]

Brother , commentaries are not the main text. Commentaries and not shruti . here we are speaking about main texts.

The Upanishads are indeed the core of Vedanta, meaning "the culmination of the Vedas," as they form the philosophical culmination of the Vedas which are Hinduism’s divine Shruti texts( that came from divine source).

Vedanta centers on the Upanishads’ teachings about Brahman, Atman, and moksha.. Unlike a single, rigid text like other religions, Hinduism’s vast Shruti (Vedas, Upanishads) and Smriti (Gita, Puranas) require a lifetime to fully grasp the depths of spiritual wisdom contained in them.

This is where the works of Philosophers like Swami Vivekananda unpack the Upanishads’ complex teachings for modern seekers, making their timeless wisdom accessible without altering their divine essence.

 

[LordJames]

Since the topic has come up now, it’s very important we differentiate ourselves from Shiaism. When you go against the Quran and Hadith and vilify literally the most beloved people to Rasul’Ul Allah SAW then I refuse to stand with them.

Was gonna ignore arguments in this thread out of love for him SAW, but now we’re talking about rejectors who hate those closest to the Prophet PBUH, imagine how he would feel hearing that. No, I can’t sit quiet and be complacent or complicit in silence. As long as i make my stance clear at least once.

Not to mention the bid’ah and shirk they participate in and the original few who referred to themselves as “Shia’n Ali” betrayed and caused the shahada of Hussain RA.

No, I refuse to acknowledge them and do not consider them worthy of teaching us about Islam.

I’ve debated numerous times with many on here already about shirk, Islam being the only truth etc, so I don’t feel the need to engage those same topics that have been repeated many times over the last few years or those who have no intention to learn the truth but just troll, perhaps this is something I haven’t clarified yet, thought I’d do that too.

Verification of ahadith is important. The point I wanted to make was there are extremists on both sides. I have seen a lot of supposed Shia followers openly spew venom against the likes of Hazrat Aisha (calling her an adultress nauzubillah), Hazrat Umar (calling him mentally unstable and a closeted Jew), Hazrat Abu Bakr (calling him cunning and evil etc). There are literally sad excuses of human people who talk against them. I know Shia ism isn't about that and I respect the those who don't take it to extreme and go after the Sahaba and Azwaja o Mutaharat.
The likes of Omar Suleiman (a PhD in Islamic Theology), Yasir Qadhi (is an Aalim as well). They are very respectable scholars who give ahadith references that I have verified myself to be true.
The thing is those so called scholars who preach sectarianism regardless of which side they are on and preach hatred and extremism among Muslims and using Sahaba and others as a fuel are the big culprits.
I haven't ever heard Omar Suleiman talking about which sect of Islam he follows honestly. And Yasir Qadhi similarly has said my school is open to every Muslim.

If someone calls Aisha as doing that sin , then that person is disbeliever , because he is speaking against the ayat of the Quran. So , in this case the evidence is present , it is not an emotional thing.

Now as far as I know , I have never heard any shia scholar accuse Aisha of this , yes they disagree with her stance of fighting in the battle of Jamal. Which I also disagree with , she was wrong in that instance . There are authentic evidence , which I can share if required.

But one thing I would like you to research is who were the people who made the accusation on Aisha initially in that instance , kindly find out , I am sure it will surprise you.

As for other words that you added with Abu bakr and Umar is concerned , you can call that misguidance . I understand that for a sunni upbringing this sounds very insulting , but there are several factors which are involved. First shia literature does not praise them , secondly even in sunni literature there are things which are highly debatable about them. Thirdly they do not consider them as companions in the sense sunnis define.

So for a layman shia we cannot give fatwas like that. Also keep ion mind abusing some companions does not make anyone disbeliever. Abusing is sin , not kufr.

As far as Yasir qadhi is concerned , I think you are his big fan. yes , he and several other scholars do give references. A real debater is one who gives evidence from both sides and then lets the audience decide . Even Ahmadis give evidence !

By the way I can show you one lecture of Mr Yasir where he did not give evidence , just spoke . You want to hear that?

Brothers,

The companions are affirmed to be the best of the best in the Qur'aan.

[48:29] Muḥammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those with him are firm with the disbelievers and compassionate with one another. You see them bowing and prostrating ˹in prayer˺, seeking Allah’s bounty and pleasure. The sign ˹of brightness can be seen˺ on their faces from the trace of prostrating ˹in prayer˺. This is their description in the Torah. And their parable in the Gospel is that of a seed that sprouts its ˹tiny˺ branches, making it strong. Then it becomes thick, standing firmly on its stem, to the delight of the planters—in this way Allah makes the believers a source of dismay for the disbelievers. To those of them who believe and do good, Allah has promised forgiveness and a great reward.

I would advise everyone to hold their tongues in expressing an opinion for which you will have to answer on the day of judgement. 1400+ years later, it makes no difference to debate tragic events like Battle of the Camel and analyze and appoint blame.

Right now, Israel is bombing Iran and my prayers are firmly for the protection of each and every individual and person in Iran (Ameen) just like many other Sunnees (e.g. Mohammad Hijab)

May Allah protect the people of Iran (Ameen)

There are valid differences between Sunni and Shia but both are still Muslims.

 

[Justcrazy]

Brothers,

The companions are affirmed to be the best of the best in the Qur'aan.



I would advise everyone to hold their tongues in expressing an opinion for which you will have to answer on the day of judgement. 1400+ years later, it makes no difference to debate tragic events like Battle of the Camel and analyze and appoint blame.

Right now, Israel is bombing Iran and my prayers are firmly for the protection of each and every individual and person in Iran (Ameen) just like many other Sunnees (e.g. Mohammad Hijab)

May Allah protect the people of Iran (Ameen)

There are valid differences between Sunni and Shia but both are still Muslims.

The first point you made is that Companions are affirmed as best in the Quran.

Now I would like you to enlighten me on the following things regarding this.
First , I would like to know who are the people who fall under the definition of companions according to Quran.

Second , in surah Tawbah ayat 100 - 102 Allah gives three categories of companions , what you have to say about them.

Third in Muslim , prophet says there are 12 hypocrites in my companions , yes we do not know the names and cannot pin point any one , but fact remains that there were.

I would advise everyone to hold their tongues in expressing an opinion for which you will have to answer on the day of judgement. 1400+ years later, it makes no difference to debate tragic events like Battle of the Camel and analyze and appoint blame.

These things have already being discussed and there are whole chapters in hadeeth books. If we were not allowed to discuss why the Muhaddith wrote them? In fact question is why did prophet speak about them ?

When you read the quran and come across that Adam AS disobeyed God , do you skip those ayats?

In today world of social media we need to give proper answers , instead of just saying that we should not discuss.

Just for your view regarding who was right or wrong in that instance , I am not deciding that. I am only a student of hadeeth , what has been transmitted through proper channels i mentioned. If anyone has issue with that , then they should talk about the people who wrote them.

Narrated Abu Wail:
When `Ali sent `Ammar and Al-Hasan to (the people of) Kufa to urge them to fight, `Ammar addressed them saying, "I know that she (i.e. `Aisha) is the wife of the Prophet (ﷺ) in this world and in the Hereafter (world to come), but Allah has put you to test, whether you will follow Him (i.e. Allah) or her."

( Bukhari 3772 ).

If anyone has any doubts regarding this matter still , who was on right and who was wrong in the battle of jamal , I can show from Ayesha Ra herself that she used to repent on her act. If someone wants to see from the prophet I am ready to show as well.

 

[Justcrazy]

The Upanishads are indeed the core of Vedanta, meaning "the culmination of the Vedas," as they form the philosophical culmination of the Vedas which are Hinduism’s divine Shruti texts( that came from divine source).

Vedanta centers on the Upanishads’ teachings about Brahman, Atman, and moksha.. Unlike a single, rigid text like other religions, Hinduism’s vast Shruti (Vedas, Upanishads) and Smriti (Gita, Puranas) require a lifetime to fully grasp the depths of spiritual wisdom contained in them.

This is where the works of Philosophers like Swami Vivekananda unpack the Upanishads’ complex teachings for modern seekers, making their timeless wisdom accessible without altering their divine essence.

So we can assume upanishads are authority for you along with the Vedas?

 

[Justcrazy]

Herein lies the fault line. And the willing paupers.

If you are not a Muslim , then what is the point in poking your nose in these kind of discussions? Its not necessary that we have to post in all threads. If a serious discussion is going on , kindly do not come to troll , if you can add something useful then only comment.

 

[LordJames]

The first point you made is that Companions are affirmed as best in the Quran.

Now I would like you to enlighten me on the following things regarding this.
First , I would like to know who are the people who fall under the definition of companions according to Quran.

Second , in surah Tawbah ayat 100 - 102 Allah gives three categories of companions , what you have to say about them.

Third in Muslim , prophet says there are 12 hypocrites in my companions , yes we do not know the names and cannot pin point any one , but fact remains that there were.

I would advise everyone to hold their tongues in expressing an opinion for which you will have to answer on the day of judgement. 1400+ years later, it makes no difference to debate tragic events like Battle of the Camel and analyze and appoint blame.

These things have already being discussed and there are whole chapters in hadeeth books. If we were not allowed to discuss why the Muhaddith wrote them? In fact question is why did prophet speak about them ?

When you read the quran and come across that Adam AS disobeyed God , do you skip those ayats?

In today world of social media we need to give proper answers , instead of just saying that we should not discuss.

Just for your view regarding who was right or wrong in that instance , I am not deciding that. I am only a student of hadeeth , what has been transmitted through proper channels i mentioned. If anyone has issue with that , then they should talk about the people who wrote them.

Narrated Abu Wail:
When `Ali sent `Ammar and Al-Hasan to (the people of) Kufa to urge them to fight, `Ammar addressed them saying, "I know that she (i.e. `Aisha) is the wife of the Prophet (ﷺ) in this world and in the Hereafter (world to come), but Allah has put you to test, whether you will follow Him (i.e. Allah) or her."

( Bukhari 3772 ).

If anyone has any doubts regarding this matter still , who was on right and who was wrong in the battle of jamal , I can show from Ayesha Ra herself that she used to repent on her act. If someone wants to see from the prophet I am ready to show as well.

The role of the Muhadditheen was to record narrations, so I understand why it's included in the books of Hadith. As for the rest of your argument, I’d prefer to refrain—I'd rather protect myself from making any judgment about any of the companions. This isn't a matter of core belief, so my personal research, opinion, or analysis carries no real weight in this context.
​

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) who said: The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: "Part of the perfection of one's Islam is his leaving that which does not concern him." [Tirmidhi]

I will let Ayesha (may be God be pleased with her) and others fight their own battle and account for their own deeds for the day of judgement.

So in essence, I agree to disagree with you

 

[Suleiman]

Brothers,

The companions are affirmed to be the best of the best in the Qur'aan.



I would advise everyone to hold their tongues in expressing an opinion for which you will have to answer on the day of judgement. 1400+ years later, it makes no difference to debate tragic events like Battle of the Camel and analyze and appoint blame.

Right now, Israel is bombing Iran and my prayers are firmly for the protection of each and every individual and person in Iran (Ameen) just like many other Sunnees (e.g. Mohammad Hijab)

May Allah protect the people of Iran (Ameen)

There are valid differences between Sunni and Shia but both are still Muslims.

Agreed. I personally do not pick sides on the Event of the Camel, out of respect as the scholars of the past said, I do not even call it a battle.

Both Ali and Ayesha RA are sahaba of very high status and us regular Muslims are absolutely nobodies to be picking sides and saying who is right and who is wrong.

They had no ill will toward each other, they worked out whatever confusion there was and it was only the Khwarij amongst The ranks causing the confusion.

And I 10000% agree, we are absolutely nobodies to be criticizing the sahaba. The Hadith I posted previously tells us to proceed with caution and hold our tongues when talking about the Sahaba so as to not go into disrespect. Sadly people underestimate their status, when they are the rightful Khalifa in order of status dictated by Rasul Ullah SAW, and even in his lifetime he hinted many times at the great qualities of Abu Bakr and Umar RA as well as as Uthman and Ali RA and the rest of the Sahaba-

We are no one to criticize any of their decisions.

 

[Farhan The Man]

If you are not a Muslim

That's for god to decide.

Not you. Or me.

Unless you are god. I am certainly not.

 

[Suleiman]

In Hinduism, we do not regard prophets very highly as we have Avatars who are the divine incarnation of the God itself.

There is where Sanatani spirituality is levels above because where Jesus said he was the son of God, where Mohammad PBUH said he was the chosen messenger of God, Sudarshna Chakra Dhaari Murli Manohar Devaki Nandan Sri Krishna said he was God himself - the greatest of all time.

There are Hindus historians themselves who deem Prophet Muhammad PBUH as the final avatar. How true that is, I’m not an expert on Hinduism nor am I Hindu (Alhamdullilah) so I can’t use your scripture to strengthen my views as a Muslim, but when I read the paper and watched the documentary, it was very interesting.

 

[Bhaijaan]

There are Hindus historians themselves who deem Prophet Muhammad PBUH as the final avatar. How true that is, I’m not an expert on Hinduism nor am I Hindu (Alhamdullilah) so I can’t use your scripture to strengthen my views as a Muslim, but when I read the paper and watched the documentary, it was very interesting.

It cannot be because Islamic Prophet Mohammad PBUH ‘s teachings do not align with classic Sanatan.

Two different schools of thought.

Hindus re respectful of Islam from a distance.

 

[Farhan The Man]

The root cause of muslim division.

Right here. From sahih hadees itself.

An immediate muslim.

​

When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was `Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." `Umar said, "The Prophet (ﷺ) is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet (ﷺ) may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as `Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Go away!" ​

Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn `Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."​

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5669​

 

[Justcrazy]

That's for god to decide.

Not you. Or me.

Unless you are god. I am certainly not.

But you yourself do not agree with Islam. If you have a certain set of beliefs then let me know , I will address you like that. It is not me but you that has to give a reference point.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Well , you may not be , but you like to quote Mr Yasir. He is a popular person these days on youtube. Recently I watched a few of his lectures , and found him interesting.

Abusing any Muslim is a sin , which holds true for companions as well.

The hadith you quoted is a sunni hadith , and as sunni you consider Abu bakar as companion , so knowing that if you call him kafir , then certainly the kufr will be back on you ( here I mean not you literally but using you as second person ).

Now , if someone calls him kafir , not believing him to be a Muslim , there we can have tawil.

The reason is , that once a person informed Mecca Mushriks about the prophet planning to attack them. A letter from a companion was found who was about to inform the meccans about this. Now Umar wanted to kill that companion saying that he is a hypocrite. Umar was right , that did amount to treason helping the enemies. The Prophet stopped him saying that Allah has forgiven the companions of badr. This was a badri companion.

Now , the main point is that if we say that by calling someone kafir , one becomes one , then what happens here to Umar ? The answer is No umar is not a hypocrite, because he did not call him munafiq without a tawil , there was a reason , though it was false.

The prophet forgave that companion , because his intention was not to harm islam but to safeguard his family. If the same thing had happened after the death of the prophet during the reign of Umar , he would have killed that person , because now he had to go by circumstantial evidence without support of revelation.

The mistakes of sahaba is a light way to say things , when we say they had a difference of opinions. Ali fought three major battles in his life , Jamal , Siffin and Narwahan . And behind all his wars we have authentic narrations of the prophet , that is why I said he was right. If there were No hadith , then we could have had our personal opinions. Remember thousands of Muslims died , this is battle , not a difference of opinion.

But yes , whether it was Aisha or talha or Zubair they realized their mistakes and repented for that , except Yazeed father. Also Zubair and Talha are in ashra Mubashra , and off course Aisha is wife of the prophet.

I do not think any sunni scholar would be saying that Hassan and Hussain were better than Isa or yahya , I think you had some misunderstanding, if you tell me the source I can see it.

Yes , they have spend years studying , but i brought up yasir Qadhi , because you said he always speaks with references , which is not true. There are lectures where he does not give any references , in fact makes narrative against well authenticated hadith .

I have actually have discussions with those people in real life. Their reason is Prophet Yahya AS's martyrdom isn't mentioned in quran or hadith but Hussain RA's martyrdom causing grief to Prophet Muhammad SAW is mentioned in a hadith so this is why they are greater than the two Prophets. And regarding Prophet Isa AS, the most stupid encounter they put forward was he wasn't from our ummat. Trust me, such people exist in real life and even in Sunni sect as well which is why I used the term tiktok scholars. These guys claim to be scholars as well and speak very highly of this guy Engineer Mirza.
Regarding the references part, I actually talked about Omar Suleiman that he provides references which I have verified myself.
I think Islam came as a religion without sects and this is how it should have remained.

 

[Justcrazy]

The root cause of muslim division.

Right here. From sahih hadees itself.

An immediate muslim.

​

When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was `Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." `Umar said, "The Prophet (ﷺ) is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet (ﷺ) may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as `Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Go away!" ​

Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn `Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."​

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5669​

You are partially right , but the main difference between shia and sunni is imamat , shias believe imams are divinely appointed , whereas sunnis do not believe Khalifas are divinely appointed.

 

[Justcrazy]

In Hinduism, we do not regard prophets very highly as we have Avatars who are the divine incarnation of the God itself.

There is where Sanatani spirituality is levels above because where Jesus said he was the son of God, where Mohammad PBUH said he was the chosen messenger of God, Sudarshna Chakra Dhaari Murli Manohar Devaki Nandan Sri Krishna said he was God himself - the greatest of all time.

In Hinduism there is no concept of prophets.

Now this believe in avtars is also something which is flawed.

Do you believe avtar to be part of the main God from which they incarnate?

 

[Justcrazy]

I have actually have discussions with those people in real life. Their reason is Prophet Yahya AS's martyrdom isn't mentioned in quran or hadith but Hussain RA's martyrdom causing grief to Prophet Muhammad SAW is mentioned in a hadith so this is why they are greater than the two Prophets. And regarding Prophet Isa AS, the most stupid encounter they put forward was he wasn't from our ummat. Trust me, such people exist in real life and even in Sunni sect as well which is why I used the term tiktok scholars. These guys claim to be scholars as well and speak very highly of this guy Engineer Mirza.
Regarding the references part, I actually talked about Omar Suleiman that he provides references which I have verified myself.
I think Islam came as a religion without sects and this is how it should have remained.

Do you know the last line you wrote is something which is the core of Muhammad Ali Mirza speeches.

Imam hussain is not directly mentioned in the Quran.
Yes what you say is right prophet was grieved by the incident at karbala. Yahya As was also martyred.

The karbala incident is more tragic because , Imam Hussain was killed by the Muslims , and his body was also disrespected.

In one particular instance if his martyrdom was more painful does not make him a prophet.

The biggest thing which a prophet has , is the fact that if we deny them we become disbelievers. This is one unique aspect of prophets , which they do not share with any other person.

if tomorrow someone denies Ali , Abu bakar , Imam Hussain , any scholar , any so called walis etc , we will call them misguided , not kafirs. The most important criteria of faith is to believe the prophet of his time.

I know Mr Omar sulieman by face , did not hear him much , so its not right to comment about him. Generally I look for some interesting or controversial topics to see what a scholar says about that. Because easy , day to day topics any one can say. i mean topics like salah , Tahajjud , virtues of Fridays , etc etc. Here it is easy.

But you have mentioned him , I will check his videos this weekend by the will of Allah.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Agreed. I personally do not pick sides on the Event of the Camel, out of respect as the scholars of the past said, I do not even call it a battle.

Both Ali and Ayesha RA are sahaba of very high status and us regular Muslims are absolutely nobodies to be picking sides and saying who is right and who is wrong.

They had no ill will toward each other, they worked out whatever confusion there was and it was only the Khwarij amongst The ranks causing the confusion.

And I 10000% agree, we are absolutely nobodies to be criticizing the sahaba. The Hadith I posted previously tells us to proceed with caution and hold our tongues when talking about the Sahaba so as to not go into disrespect. Sadly people underestimate their status, when they are the rightful Khalifa in order of status dictated by Rasul Ullah SAW, and even in his lifetime he hinted many times at the great qualities of Abu Bakr and Umar RA as well as as Uthman and Ali RA and the rest of the Sahaba-

We are no one to criticize any of their decisions.

Yes this is how I see it. We ourselves are just ordinary followers of the faith 1400+ years after its inception. We are not among the blessed Sahaba, far from them. We just need to be respectful to all of them because the tests they underwent, and the sacrifices they made are totally of different magnitude to what we in our lives are going through when Islam is 1400+ years strong and all around the world. Allah will forgive whoever He wills. That is not for us to judge or decide. We just need to be wary of our own deeds and promote harmony and unity.
But I would also like us to be wary of the people of our time especially the gullible people of South Asia who are lead astray by the tiktok scholars and calling decrees on the best of people from history. Because I have seen people calling Prophet Isa AS or Prophet Yahya don't matter to us because they were not from our ummat nauzubillah. Jahalat is the biggest enemy of humanity and blindly following anyone who claims to be a religious scholar is something that needs to discouraged.

 

[Bhaijaan]

In Hinduism there is no concept of prophets.

Now this believe in avtars is also something which is flawed.

Do you believe avtar to be part of the main God from which they incarnate?

There is no such thing as a main God in Sanatan.

There is Divinity that we believe incarnated itself in various Godly forms including many non human, non biological forms as well.

Hence the idea of a Prophet is an immensely demoted concept in our religion. We worship divinity, not messengers.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Do you know the last line you wrote is something which is the core of Muhammad Ali Mirza speeches.

Imam hussain is not directly mentioned in the Quran.
Yes what you say is right prophet was grieved by the incident at karbala. Yahya As was also martyred.

The karbala incident is more tragic because , Imam Hussain was killed by the Muslims , and his body was also disrespected.

In one particular instance if his martyrdom was more painful does not make him a prophet.

The biggest thing which a prophet has , is the fact that if we deny them we become disbelievers. This is one unique aspect of prophets , which they do not share with any other person.

if tomorrow someone denies Ali , Abu bakar , Imam Hussain , any scholar , any so called walis etc , we will call them misguided , not kafirs. The most important criteria of faith is to believe the prophet of his time.

I know Mr Omar sulieman by face , did not hear him much , so its not right to comment about him. Generally I look for some interesting or controversial topics to see what a scholar says about that. Because easy , day to day topics any one can say. i mean topics like salah , Tahajjud , virtues of Fridays , etc etc. Here it is easy.

But you have mentioned him , I will check his videos this weekend by the will of Allah.

Yes I know what Mirza is about which is why I find him to be a big hypocrite. He likes to say follow Islam without a sect yet he himself has played a role in this generation of young people who will reject all the scholars and make their own interpretations of Quran and Ahadith and say scholars have no authority over us and we can understand Islam ourselves. This has been a very dangerous precedent in Pakistan atleast I have come across.
I like to hear about waqiahs and lives of different Prophets which is why I find Omar Suleiman's lectures very good. My favorite topic still is the End Times and for that reason reading about Prophet Isa AS is something I find extremely interesting.

 

[Justcrazy]

Agreed. I personally do not pick sides on the Event of the Camel, out of respect as the scholars of the past said, I do not even call it a battle.

Both Ali and Ayesha RA are sahaba of very high status and us regular Muslims are absolutely nobodies to be picking sides and saying who is right and who is wrong.

They had no ill will toward each other, they worked out whatever confusion there was and it was only the Khwarij amongst The ranks causing the confusion.

And I 10000% agree, we are absolutely nobodies to be criticizing the sahaba. The Hadith I posted previously tells us to proceed with caution and hold our tongues when talking about the Sahaba so as to not go into disrespect. Sadly people underestimate their status, when they are the rightful Khalifa in order of status dictated by Rasul Ullah SAW, and even in his lifetime he hinted many times at the great qualities of Abu Bakr and Umar RA as well as as Uthman and Ali RA and the rest of the Sahaba-

We are no one to criticize any of their decisions.

I beg to differ. I did not pick any sides , prophet himself has mentioned it and when he mentions , no matter what I or scholar says , its futile.

Its battle because there were armies involved , and a huge amount of Muslims died.

Its funny , that suppose when we ask about The people who fought Abu Bakar in matter of zakat , we call them murtad , when it comes to Umar , we call those who fought him as kafirs , when it comes to Uthman , we call them sabais , but when it comes to Ali , despite so many evidences , here our parameters change. Now , at least a person like me who does not have any sect to save , cannot accept. Any rational truth seeker will see a joke here.

So , when you blame khawrjis here in jamal did they prophet also got confused by the kharjis ? i am sure you have heard about hadeeth e hawb , what have to say about that hadeeth. And do not say it is weak because Both Al bani and Zubair Ali zai have said it to be authentic. In fact Zubair Ali has said it is authentic on a video.

This principle that we cannot talk about companions , this is totally against what Muhaddith have done. If they have discussed them , kindly give a fatwa for them here as well .

Do you know these hadeeth are evidence of truthfulness of the prophet , we know that his prophecies came true?

If discussing authentic hadeeth is disrespect for you , then I am sorry you are following a very timid and weak sect .

 

[Justcrazy]

Yes I know what Mirza is about which is why I find him to be a big hypocrite. He likes to say follow Islam without a sect yet he himself has played a role in this generation of young people who will reject all the scholars and make their own interpretations of Quran and Ahadith and say scholars have no authority over us and we can understand Islam ourselves. This has been a very dangerous precedent in Pakistan atleast I have come across.
I like to hear about waqiahs and lives of different Prophets which is why I find Omar Suleiman's lectures very good. My favorite topic still is the End Times and for that reason reading about Prophet Isa AS is something I find extremely interesting.

I think you should refrain from calling people kafir or hypocrite . Yes you can surely point out where any instance where you think the person is wrong , give your evidence for refutation and expect a reply. So if you any time found any thing wrong in what he said , you can mention , I will put it to people who know him.

For example he once said that prophets can be killed not messengers , I did not agree and showed ayat which was against that and let his students know with evidence.

It is not Mirza but the Quran which tells not to make sects and hold on to the rope of Allah. Not making sects does not mean not following any scholars . For example I consider certain hadeeth to be weak or strong because of takhreej of Al bani or Zubair Ali zai or Imam Arnaot etc.

Not following scholars where they give own opinions whereas an authentic hadeeth exists which says otherwise. This does not mean we will abuse the scholars , but we will consider it a mistake on their part. As a human we can all err.

 

[Justcrazy]

There is no such thing as a main God in Sanatan.

There is Divinity that we believe incarnated itself in various Godly forms including many non human, non biological forms as well.

Hence the idea of a Prophet is an immensely demoted concept in our religion. We worship divinity, not messengers.

Main God I meant the God from which Avtar originated. Do you believe that?

 

[Farhan The Man]

You are partially right , but the main difference between shia and sunni is imamat

You digress. Intentionally.

If only prophet was "allowed" to write that instruction. By his "companion".

muslims wouldn't find themselves in this inferior role. They find themselves today.

 

[Suleiman]

I beg to differ. I did not pick any sides , prophet himself has mentioned it and when he mentions , no matter what I or scholar says , its futile.

Its battle because there were armies involved , and a huge amount of Muslims died.

Its funny , that suppose when we ask about The people who fought Abu Bakar in matter of zakat , we call them murtad , when it comes to Umar , we call those who fought him as kafirs , when it comes to Uthman , we call them sabais , but when it comes to Ali , despite so many evidences , here our parameters change. Now , at least a person like me who does not have any sect to save , cannot accept. Any rational truth seeker will see a joke here.

So , when you blame khawrjis here in jamal did they prophet also got confused by the kharjis ? i am sure you have heard about hadeeth e hawb , what have to say about that hadeeth. And do not say it is weak because Both Al bani and Zubair Ali zai have said it to be authentic. In fact Zubair Ali has said it is authentic on a video.

This principle that we cannot talk about companions , this is totally against what Muhaddith have done. If they have discussed them , kindly give a fatwa for them here as well .

Do you know these hadeeth are evidence of truthfulness of the prophet , we know that his prophecies came true?

If discussing authentic hadeeth is disrespect for you , then I am sorry you are following a very timid and weak sect .

Your entire premise and logic makes zero sense. I follow the Salaf as Saliheen (those who adhere to the way of The Prophet PBUH like his companions RA) but it seems like you deem your own intelligence and moral compass higher than what it actually is thinking you are in any way shape or form qualified to criticize those Sahaba when even the Tabiu’un and the subsequent Scholars were respectful to them and those that stuck to the Quran and Sunnah did not have such radical views as yours.

Comparing the incident of the camel when the Ummah was reeling to unite under a Khalifa and bring the murderers of Uthman RA to justice to Abu Bakr RA (rightfully) bringing the zakat evading murtadoon to justice? Astaghfirullah.

You can’t call a spade a spade and criticize the Shia, and even when I have already called Ali RA one of the greatest 4 sahaba you still want me to continue to clarify over an incident over a misunderstanding and both sides of the Sahaba trying to make peace… your stance is clear and I hope Allah guides you (and guides me too)

 

[Suleiman]

It cannot be because Islamic Prophet Mohammad PBUH ‘s teachings do not align with classic Sanatan.

Two different schools of thought.

Hindus re respectful of Islam from a distance.

No worries. Appreciate the response. I don’t want to misinterpret a part of Hindu sacred text as I am not qualified or well versed to speak on it, so thought I would run it by you first.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I agree with @Justcrazy stance on this topic.

In fact I believe that this will become the default stance of the Ummah within 30 years.

But overall it is a non issue in modern times and focus should be on implementation of the Deen than historical skirmishes.

However I respect @Suleiman stance too.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I think you should refrain from calling people kafir or hypocrite . Yes you can surely point out where any instance where you think the person is wrong , give your evidence for refutation and expect a reply. So if you any time found any thing wrong in what he said , you can mention , I will put it to people who know him.

For example he once said that prophets can be killed not messengers , I did not agree and showed ayat which was against that and let his students know with evidence.

It is not Mirza but the Quran which tells not to make sects and hold on to the rope of Allah. Not making sects does not mean not following any scholars . For example I consider certain hadeeth to be weak or strong because of takhreej of Al bani or Zubair Ali zai or Imam Arnaot etc.

Not following scholars where they give own opinions whereas an authentic hadeeth exists which says otherwise. This does not mean we will abuse the scholars , but we will consider it a mistake on their part. As a human we can all err.

Where did I call him a kafir? I just called him a hypocrite. Mirza has a knack of attacking scholars all the time. He called Dr Israr a staunch deobandi etc.
I don't know if he is a scholar. Same with Ghamdi. I don't consider them scholars.

 

[Suleiman]

I agree with @Justcrazy stance on this topic.

In fact I believe that this will become the default stance of the Ummah within 30 years.

But overall it is a non issue in modern times and focus should be on implementation of the Deen than historical skirmishes.

However I respect @Suleiman stance too.

discussions on these topics is important for the implementation of the deen as the incident of the camel (from authentic and verified sources) teaches us how to handle disputes between ourselves in times of disagreements. As well as many other incidents which unfortunately get narrated on by unreliable narrators and then pedaled in sermons and lectures just to make it “engaging” to listen to.

The sahaba were the best of the Ummah. And the best of mankind after the prophets (peace be upon them all).

So if the Prophet of Allah (PBUH) says he loves them dearly and for us to be careful when talking about them, then I have to be there for due diligence, even though me and @Justcrazy both are truth seekers and I have no ill will toward my Muslim brothers even on disagreements.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

discussions on these topics is important for the implementation of the deen as the incident of the camel (from authentic and verified sources) teaches us how to handle disputes between ourselves in times of disagreements. As well as many other incidents which unfortunately get narrated on by unreliable narrators and then pedaled in sermons and lectures just to make it “engaging” to listen to.

The sahaba were the best of the Ummah. And the best of mankind after the prophets (peace be upon them all).

So if the Prophet of Allah (PBUH) says he loves them dearly and for us to be careful when talking about them, then I have to be there for due diligence, even though me and @Justcrazy both are truth seekers and I have no ill will toward my Muslim brothers even on disagreements.

Yes we should respect all the sahaba. We aren't the ones to throw stones about them when we ourselves are bigger sinners and nowhere near them in status.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

discussions on these topics is important for the implementation of the deen as the incident of the camel (from authentic and verified sources) teaches us how to handle disputes between ourselves in times of disagreements. As well as many other incidents which unfortunately get narrated on by unreliable narrators and then pedaled in sermons and lectures just to make it “engaging” to listen to.

The sahaba were the best of the Ummah. And the best of mankind after the prophets (peace be upon them all).

So if the Prophet of Allah (PBUH) says he loves them dearly and for us to be careful when talking about them, then I have to be there for due diligence, even though me and @Justcrazy both are truth seekers and I have no ill will toward my Muslim brothers even on disagreements.

and the only two people whose perspective we can blindly trust on such issues or disputes among the sahaba are Prophet Isa AS and Hazrat Mahdi who are yet to come. Prophet Isa AS will be the most knowledgeable person in the world followed by the Imam Mahdi. If any of us lives to see and meet them, we can ask them about their views and what they say would be final regarding it. No scholar or human (alive) would be able to dispute their claim.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Where did I call him a kafir? I just called him a hypocrite. Mirza has a knack of attacking scholars all the time. He called Dr Israr a staunch deobandi etc.
I don't know if he is a scholar. Same with Ghamdi. I don't consider them scholars.

It is the duty of every Muslim to learn about islam. You don't need a degree to learn and teach Islam. you may not agree with someone's views, but you have to have a solid evidence against that guy to prove your point in the end.

Simple

 

[Justcrazy]

discussions on these topics is important for the implementation of the deen as the incident of the camel (from authentic and verified sources) teaches us how to handle disputes between ourselves in times of disagreements. As well as many other incidents which unfortunately get narrated on by unreliable narrators and then pedaled in sermons and lectures just to make it “engaging” to listen to.

The sahaba were the best of the Ummah. And the best of mankind after the prophets (peace be upon them all).

So if the Prophet of Allah (PBUH) says he loves them dearly and for us to be careful when talking about them, then I have to be there for due diligence, even though me and @Justcrazy both are truth seekers and I have no ill will toward my Muslim brothers even on disagreements.

The Muhaddithin wrote these incidents because these were prophecies of the prophet. Secondly we can know where exactly things went wrong. When we say that certain individuals were wrong in the instance , that does not mean we are saying they are in hell.

Here we do not give judgement about anyone , that is the decision of Allah, what my point is that we do not make false excuses to defend wrong things. In fact this issue is crystal clear , because Aisha herself was repenting for her act , and that is the reason why she did not get herself buried with the prophet and opted for baqi.

Now when prophet himself saying something , companion like Amaar saying same thing and Aisha herself agreeing to that , and then we see people of this era contradicting that , what kind of Islam we are following ?

Now your second point , when you say sahaba is the best of mankind. Here when you generalize this , you have to understand that we do not have any agreement to the definition of sahaba , when you do not have a proper definition , then what exactly are we trying to give attribute to ?

And secondly best does not mean they cannot do wrong , after the death of prophet there were companions who became Murtad , so when those ayats of quran was revealed , those people were companions !

These things are not straight forward issues.

That is why you will not find any sunni scholar debating adalah of sahaba with any shia scholar. You check the debates , they will never debate , yes they will give big lectures when they have their own crowd.

 

[Justcrazy]

Where did I call him a kafir? I just called him a hypocrite. Mirza has a knack of attacking scholars all the time. He called Dr Israr a staunch deobandi etc.
I don't know if he is a scholar. Same with Ghamdi. I don't consider them scholars.

Brother hypocrite is worse than a kafir.

I asked you what is the reason you disagree with him , give me the point , I will try to get an answer for that. And you come up with this thing , that he calls Dr israr as staunch Deobandi !

If you have so much disagreement with him , at least you should have a reason for that. Just hating someone for the sake of hating is childish. That way you will see many Christians just hating the prophet. When you ask them reasons , they give childish answers. If you have a proper intellectual disagreement I would like to know , and ask his people . Unless you put forward your point , people will not know.

So , you believe that Dr Israr was not a Deobandi ?

 

[Justcrazy]

I agree with @Justcrazy stance on this topic.

In fact I believe that this will become the default stance of the Ummah within 30 years.

But overall it is a non issue in modern times and focus should be on implementation of the Deen than historical skirmishes.

However I respect @Suleiman stance too.

Thanks for your appreciation and having an open mind.

As I said these incidents are prophecies of the prophet so we know the truthfulness of prophet.

Secondly , I guess we all here believe in imam Mahdi and his arrival . he will be one of the 12 khalifas mentioned in a hadeeth , I believe the last of them.

Now if we are pro khilafat and believe in that system , then we must know how the khilafat e Rashda was broken. Who were the people involved . The reasons why that period is called khilafat E rashda. then only we will be able to have the concept of Mahdi. Otherwise if we have attitude that no , all were equal , it was ijtehad or it was disagreement , then at the time of mahdi w also there will be other rulers. So should we say to him , that there is already a ruler in place , just keep quiet and sit down .

 

[Justcrazy]

Your entire premise and logic makes zero sense. I follow the Salaf as Saliheen (those who adhere to the way of The Prophet PBUH like his companions RA) but it seems like you deem your own intelligence and moral compass higher than what it actually is thinking you are in any way shape or form qualified to criticize those Sahaba when even the Tabiu’un and the subsequent Scholars were respectful to them and those that stuck to the Quran and Sunnah did not have such radical views as yours.

Comparing the incident of the camel when the Ummah was reeling to unite under a Khalifa and bring the murderers of Uthman RA to justice to Abu Bakr RA (rightfully) bringing the zakat evading murtadoon to justice? Astaghfirullah.

You can’t call a spade a spade and criticize the Shia, and even when I have already called Ali RA one of the greatest 4 sahaba you still want me to continue to clarify over an incident over a misunderstanding and both sides of the Sahaba trying to make peace… your stance is clear and I hope Allah guides you (and guides me too)

The muhaddith were not salaf according to you ?

Also , I based my talk on hadeeth , what are your basis for contradicting me? Kindly give me evidence.

Also , let me be very clear , Ali does not need certificate from anyone. He has hadeeth of prophet behind him in all three battles. Its not a matter of discussion . because you are disputing words of the prophet himself. Secondly , Ali position is not a matter of our rankings of greatness. Imam Ahmad and Imam Hajar , have written that among all companions the one with most virtues from authentic chains is Ali.

The people who refused to give zakat to Abu Bakar , were they not companions?

I have said I have provided evidence , and you are trying to just make emotional statements. If you have any evidence please put it forward , do not waste my time with emotional rantings , I have tough physical job , and do not get much time.

If you have any evidence put here regarding this topic , do not write stories which mullahs say in front of their donkeys , who just nod their heads at everything.

 

[Justcrazy]

You digress. Intentionally.

If only prophet was "allowed" to write that instruction. By his "companion".

muslims wouldn't find themselves in this inferior role. They find themselves today.

Sorry , I did not understand your last sentence , can you clarify that , what you mean by inferior role?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Guys please don't derail the topic while discussing some Youtubers

 

[Justcrazy]

and the only two people whose perspective we can blindly trust on such issues or disputes among the sahaba are Prophet Isa AS and Hazrat Mahdi who are yet to come. Prophet Isa AS will be the most knowledgeable person in the world followed by the Imam Mahdi. If any of us lives to see and meet them, we can ask them about their views and what they say would be final regarding it. No scholar or human (alive) would be able to dispute their claim.

We cannot trust what has come to us through the prophet Muhammad ?

 

[Justcrazy]

It is the duty of every Muslim to learn about islam. You don't need a degree to learn and teach Islam. you may not agree with someone's views, but you have to have a solid evidence against that guy to prove your point in the end.

Simple

This is the exact thing people do not do. people discuss things with pre conceived bias , without evidence and then get emotional when evidence is contrary to what they believe is presented. If you are a closed frog mentality , we should not come into such discussions. We need to be open to new things presented and then verify them.

 

[Suleiman]

The muhaddith were not salaf according to you ?

Also , I based my talk on hadeeth , what are your basis for contradicting me? Kindly give me evidence.

Also , let me be very clear , Ali does not need certificate from anyone. He has hadeeth of prophet behind him in all three battles. Its not a matter of discussion . because you are disputing words of the prophet himself. Secondly , Ali position is not a matter of our rankings of greatness. Imam Ahmad and Imam Hajar , have written that among all companions the one with most virtues from authentic chains is Ali.

The people who refused to give zakat to Abu Bakar , were they not companions?

I have said I have provided evidence , and you are trying to just make emotional statements. If you have any evidence please put it forward , do not waste my time with emotional rantings , I have tough physical job , and do not get much time.

If you have any evidence put here regarding this topic , do not write stories which mullahs say in front of their donkeys , who just nod their heads at everything.

You are coming in with your own biases against certain sahaba and then trying to project it on to me. I love Hazrat Ali RA as the major 4 sahaba and best of the Ummah of Rasul Ullah SAW and Hazrat Ayesha RA as the mother of the believers amongst the other wives and companions of Rasul Ullah SAW as well as Rasul Ullah SAW.

I said both Ali RA and Ayesha RA based on their own ishtihad made the decision they made and both had good intentions and we are no one to say who is right or wrong, former wanting to ensure that the Ummah had a Khalifa given allegiance before proceeding with the investigation of the murder and the latter side wanting the investigation done first. We are no one to judge who was right here, not you nor me. This is the balanced view.

you have been told numerous times now to proceed with caution when talking about the Sahaba esp when you begin to cross boundaries are start criticizing them, scroll up for the Hadith on holding your tongue on the sahaba.

you’re misconstruing and deriving false judgements of your own accord based off what you’ve seen and heard and are stuck in a make believe thought loop in your own head making accusations against the sahaba, the way you are talking about them gives an indication of Shia like beliefs, and that’s why I asked you earlier if you are Shia so I know where we stand first. You want to talk about muhadith but then forget about what the major muhadith said regarding etiquette when talking about the Sahaba, so unless you are talking about Shia narrators, I need to know where you are coming from. No need to get agitated because your attempts at criticizing the best of the Ummah (May Allah be pleased with them) are not going unchecked.

 

[Justcrazy]

You are coming in with your own biases against certain sahaba and then trying to project it on to me. I love Hazrat Ali RA as the major 4 sahaba and best of the Ummah of Rasul Ullah SAW and Hazrat Ayesha RA as the mother of the believers amongst the other wives and companions of Rasul Ullah SAW as well as Rasul Ullah SAW.

I said both Ali RA and Ayesha RA based on their own ishtihad made the decision they made and both had good intentions and we are no one to say who is right or wrong, former wanting to ensure that the Ummah had a Khalifa given allegiance before proceeding with the investigation of the murder and the latter side wanting the investigation done first. We are no one to judge who was right here, not you nor me. This is the balanced view.

you have been told numerous times now to proceed with caution when talking about the Sahaba esp when you begin to cross boundaries are start criticizing them, scroll up for the Hadith on holding your tongue on the sahaba.

you’re misconstruing and deriving false judgements of your own accord based off what you’ve seen and heard and are stuck in a make believe thought loop in your own head making accusations against the sahaba, the way you are talking about them gives an indication of Shia like beliefs, and that’s why I asked you earlier if you are Shia so I know where we stand first. You want to talk about muhadith but then forget about what the major muhadith said regarding etiquette when talking about the Sahaba, so unless you are talking about Shia narrators, I need to know where you are coming from. No need to get agitated because your attempts at criticizing the best of the Ummah (May Allah be pleased with them) are not going unchecked.

Your statement that I have bias against certain sahabas would have been correct , if I did not provide any evidence towards that. Matter of fact is that you are talking from your own desires and bias. A person who is speaking with hadith is biased ?

Now you again go around in cycle , emotional statements , you keep making claims but where is evidence ? There was a battle fought thousands of people died , this is ijtehad for you ?

Now again you say that Both were right , what is your evidence ?

My evidence is this

Narrated Abu Wail:
When `Ali sent `Ammar and Al-Hasan to (the people of) Kufa to urge them to fight, `Ammar addressed them saying, "I know that she (i.e. `Aisha) is the wife of the Prophet (ﷺ) in this world and in the Hereafter (world to come), but Allah has put you to test, whether you will follow Him (i.e. Allah) or her."

( Bukhari 3772 ).


I can show the same from Aisha herself. So do you claim to know more than Aisha about what she thought about the situation ?



qais bin abi hazim says that ayesha said: and she had said for herself that she be buried in her house with holy prophet asws and abu bakar, so she said: i did new acts (things which were not there in era of holy prophet) after holy prophet asws, so bury me with (other) wives of holy prophet asws, so she was buried in (graveyard of) baqi'i

( Hakim 6717 )

Imam Dhahabi also says that this chain as per bukhari and Muslim )

We are not looking for a balanced view when we have hadith available to us. If nothing was available , we would see and discuss.


Again, if discussing hadith is some kind of insult in your opinion , then why are you afraid to give the fatwa on the muhaddith? I am a person who is copying , the real criminals according to you should be the people who wrote , so please give fatwa on those Muhaddith of being shia also.


You asked whether I am a shia , my answer is , you have no power to comprehend anything , you answer my comments without any evidence, and now i think you are not even reading them , just trying to fight because of ego.

I wrote the term khulafa E rasheed , which shia considers the first three as khulafa E rasheed ? I wrote above that shias are misguided , so you think I am calling myself misguided?

If I have to accept whatever your Mullahs says blindly , then why do you blame people of other religions? They also follow their priests and shankaracharya and rabbis , people like you should not have any complaints.

Now , if you want to consult any scholar or anyone , consult and then bring the evidence required , so that we can have intellectual debate , if your evidence is proper I will accept that. No harm in accepting mistakes.

Just making a blanket statement sahaba sahaba does not prove anything. Also , I asked you before but still you did not define what do you mean by sahaba , can you throw some light , who exactly falls under this definition.

 

[Farhan The Man]

Sorry , I did not understand your last sentence , can you clarify that , what you mean by inferior role?

But you understood the middle sentence.

That's all that matters.

In the grand scheme of things.

 

[Suleiman]

Your statement that I have bias against certain sahabas would have been correct , if I did not provide any evidence towards that. Matter of fact is that you are talking from your own desires and bias. A person who is speaking with hadith is biased ?

Now you again go around in cycle , emotional statements , you keep making claims but where is evidence ? There was a battle fought thousands of people died , this is ijtehad for you ?

Now again you say that Both were right , what is your evidence ?

My evidence is this

Narrated Abu Wail:
When `Ali sent `Ammar and Al-Hasan to (the people of) Kufa to urge them to fight, `Ammar addressed them saying, "I know that she (i.e. `Aisha) is the wife of the Prophet (ﷺ) in this world and in the Hereafter (world to come), but Allah has put you to test, whether you will follow Him (i.e. Allah) or her."

( Bukhari 3772 ).


I can show the same from Aisha herself. So do you claim to know more than Aisha about what she thought about the situation ?



qais bin abi hazim says that ayesha said: and she had said for herself that she be buried in her house with holy prophet asws and abu bakar, so she said: i did new acts (things which were not there in era of holy prophet) after holy prophet asws, so bury me with (other) wives of holy prophet asws, so she was buried in (graveyard of) baqi'i

( Hakim 6717 )

Imam Dhahabi also says that this chain as per bukhari and Muslim )

We are not looking for a balanced view when we have hadith available to us. If nothing was available , we would see and discuss.


Again, if discussing hadith is some kind of insult in your opinion , then why are you afraid to give the fatwa on the muhaddith? I am a person who is copying , the real criminals according to you should be the people who wrote , so please give fatwa on those Muhaddith of being shia also.


You asked whether I am a shia , my answer is , you have no power to comprehend anything , you answer my comments without any evidence, and now i think you are not even reading them , just trying to fight because of ego.

I wrote the term khulafa E rasheed , which shia considers the first three as khulafa E rasheed ? I wrote above that shias are misguided , so you think I am calling myself misguided?

If I have to accept whatever your Mullahs says blindly , then why do you blame people of other religions? They also follow their priests and shankaracharya and rabbis , people like you should not have any complaints.

Now , if you want to consult any scholar or anyone , consult and then bring the evidence required , so that we can have intellectual debate , if your evidence is proper I will accept that. No harm in accepting mistakes.

Just making a blanket statement sahaba sahaba does not prove anything. Also , I asked you before but still you did not define what do you mean by sahaba , can you throw some light , who exactly falls under this definition.

i said that we are not in any position to judge who between them is right or wrong. I did not give a verdict that both are right, I don’t have the qualifications nor the status in the Ummah to say that. Just like you don’t.

Aisha RA later on said that she wished she never went to Basra so that confrontation never happened, yes, but once again, like someone else said above I am still not in any position to claim if she is right or wrong. That is between her and Ali RA, and ultimately between her Allah.

If she realized she was mistaken. That’s between her and Ali RA, and her Allah SWT.

There were 2 sides of the disagreement, both had sahaba. You quoting Ammar RA does not disprove what I’m saying that there were sahaba on both sides of the disagreement. Zubair RA and Talha RA were with Ayesha for e.g. You are still not understanding that I’m not picking sides because they are sahaba and once again, as the Hadith posted earlier, we are to hold our tongues and not engage in criticism of them as after the Prophets peace be upon them they are the best of the Ummam.

Abu Musa reported:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "The example of my Companions is like that of stars in the sky. Whichever star you follow, you will be rightly guided." (Sunan At-Tirmidhi)

As to answer your question about who is a Sahaba:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "The best of my Ummah (nation) are my contemporaries (Sahaba), then those who will follow them, and then those who will follow the latter. Then there will come after them people who will be dishonest and will not be trustworthy, and they will bear witness without being asked to do so." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

The Sahaba are those who have a) met the prophet PBUH in real life and b) accepted Islam and became Muslims. Simple, really. Not sure why this is a point of contention? This is universally accepted amongst those who follow the Quran and Sunnah. With the generation after them being the Tabi’uun.

It’s sad that you are here coming up with your extrapolations of Hadith and if not agreed with then any other extrapolation is deemed by you one of “random Sunni scholar”, “your Mullahs”, “Mullah talking to donkeys”

Come on man, don’t be intellectually dishonest here. Esp when there’s already enough Hadith posted here that you are out of line with the way you are talking about sahaba,

you want to go into all these discussions but are still unsure what constitutes a sahaba, asking me to define it for you, seems like you’re dodging the responsibility of not criticizing the sahaba by misconstruing who the sahaba were by finding loopholes in definition , not sure what your end goal is here…?

 

[Suleiman]

Either way this has gone for beyond the scope of this thread and I’ve made myself pretty clear that criticism of the Sahaba is out of line regardless of whatever is in your mind regarding the Incident of the Camel.

More than trying to force you to accept the reality of the incident my point in all of this was to express to you that you are in no position to criticize the Sahaba may Allah be pleased with them.

If you heed that warning, Alhamdullilah, if not, then may Allah guide you. And if I am in the wrong here then my apologies and may Allah guide me to what is better.

 

[Suleiman]

i said that we are not in any position to judge who between them is right or wrong. I did not give a verdict that both are right, I don’t have the qualifications nor the status in the Ummah to say that. Just like you don’t.

Aisha RA later on said that she wished she never went to Basra so that confrontation never happened, yes, but once again, like someone else said above I am still not in any position to claim if she is right or wrong. That is between her and Ali RA, and ultimately between her Allah.

If she realized she was mistaken. That’s between her and Ali RA, and her Allah SWT.

There were 2 sides of the disagreement, both had sahaba. You quoting Ammar RA does not disprove what I’m saying that there were sahaba on both sides of the disagreement. Zubair RA and Talha RA were with Ayesha for e.g. You are still not understanding that I’m not picking sides because they are sahaba and once again, as the Hadith posted earlier, we are to hold our tongues and not engage in criticism of them as after the Prophets peace be upon them they are the best of the Ummam.

Abu Musa reported:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "The example of my Companions is like that of stars in the sky. Whichever star you follow, you will be rightly guided." (Sunan At-Tirmidhi)

As to answer your question about who is a Sahaba:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "The best of my Ummah (nation) are my contemporaries (Sahaba), then those who will follow them, and then those who will follow the latter. Then there will come after them people who will be dishonest and will not be trustworthy, and they will bear witness without being asked to do so." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

The Sahaba are those who have a) met the prophet PBUH in real life and b) accepted Islam and became Muslims. Simple, really. Not sure why this is a point of contention? This is universally accepted amongst those who follow the Quran and Sunnah. With the generation after them being the Tabi’uun.

It’s sad that you are here coming up with your extrapolations of Hadith and if not agreed with then any other extrapolation is deemed by you one of “random Sunni scholar”, “your Mullahs”, “Mullah talking to donkeys”

Come on man, don’t be intellectually dishonest here. Esp when there’s already enough Hadith posted here that you are out of line with the way you are talking about sahaba,

View attachment 155419you want to go into all these discussions but are still unsure what constitutes a sahaba, asking me to define it for you, seems like you’re dodging the responsibility of not criticizing the sahaba by misconstruing who the sahaba were by finding loopholes in definition , not sure what your end goal is here…?

*her and Allah.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

i said that we are not in any position to judge who between them is right or wrong. I did not give a verdict that both are right, I don’t have the qualifications nor the status in the Ummah to say that. Just like you don’t.

Aisha RA later on said that she wished she never went to Basra so that confrontation never happened, yes, but once again, like someone else said above I am still not in any position to claim if she is right or wrong. That is between her and Ali RA, and ultimately between her Allah.

If she realized she was mistaken. That’s between her and Ali RA, and her Allah SWT.

There were 2 sides of the disagreement, both had sahaba. You quoting Ammar RA does not disprove what I’m saying that there were sahaba on both sides of the disagreement. Zubair RA and Talha RA were with Ayesha for e.g. You are still not understanding that I’m not picking sides because they are sahaba and once again, as the Hadith posted earlier, we are to hold our tongues and not engage in criticism of them as after the Prophets peace be upon them they are the best of the Ummam.

Abu Musa reported:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "The example of my Companions is like that of stars in the sky. Whichever star you follow, you will be rightly guided." (Sunan At-Tirmidhi)

As to answer your question about who is a Sahaba:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "The best of my Ummah (nation) are my contemporaries (Sahaba), then those who will follow them, and then those who will follow the latter. Then there will come after them people who will be dishonest and will not be trustworthy, and they will bear witness without being asked to do so." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

The Sahaba are those who have a) met the prophet PBUH in real life and b) accepted Islam and became Muslims. Simple, really. Not sure why this is a point of contention? This is universally accepted amongst those who follow the Quran and Sunnah. With the generation after them being the Tabi’uun.

It’s sad that you are here coming up with your extrapolations of Hadith and if not agreed with then any other extrapolation is deemed by you one of “random Sunni scholar”, “your Mullahs”, “Mullah talking to donkeys”

Come on man, don’t be intellectually dishonest here. Esp when there’s already enough Hadith posted here that you are out of line with the way you are talking about sahaba,

View attachment 155419you want to go into all these discussions but are still unsure what constitutes a sahaba, asking me to define it for you, seems like you’re dodging the responsibility of not criticizing the sahaba by misconstruing who the sahaba were by finding loopholes in definition , not sure what your end goal is here…?

@Justcrazy I don't get it. He calls me not call anyone a hypocrite yet when i tell him people abuse Hazrat Aisha RA (calling her an adultress nauzubillah) or Umar RA (as an unstable undercover yahudi nauzubillah), he says they are just "mistaken".
It's hard to argue with someone who already has a preconceived notion of him being right all the time and telling others to not believe everything the scholars teach that he doesn't like. Like you can be wrong as well on some positions not just Islamically but in life as well. You can't just go advising others to be careful while being extremely rigid on where you stand. We are all humans and it's natural for us to be erring at some point.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

We cannot trust what has come to us through the prophet Muhammad ?

You can see what i was talking about. You're just taking it out of context. The controversial points that exist between the different groups of Muslims in which they can not unify will be cleared by Imam Mahdi and Prophet ISA AS IA, otherwise there would be no point of them appearing.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It is the duty of every Muslim to learn about islam. You don't need a degree to learn and teach Islam. you may not agree with someone's views, but you have to have a solid evidence against that guy to prove your point in the end.

Simple

I'd be careful with that assertion. People who lived through the whole suicide attack era of 2000s to early 2010s know how dangerous the so called teachers of Islam can be especially in a country where literacy rate is so low. We don't know what is being taught in various madrassah's and masajids to students. A lot of kids have lost their lives getting brainwashed into believing doing suicide bombing against your own brethren will take you to heaven. There has to be some qualifications through which Islamic teachers and imams should be appointed.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Brother hypocrite is worse than a kafir.

I asked you what is the reason you disagree with him , give me the point , I will try to get an answer for that. And you come up with this thing , that he calls Dr israr as staunch Deobandi !

If you have so much disagreement with him , at least you should have a reason for that. Just hating someone for the sake of hating is childish. That way you will see many Christians just hating the prophet. When you ask them reasons , they give childish answers. If you have a proper intellectual disagreement I would like to know , and ask his people . Unless you put forward your point , people will not know.

So , you believe that Dr Israr was not a Deobandi ?

I don't know what sect he followed. I never heard him claiming to be a deobandi in his lectures. I heard him saying the difference of opinions among the 4 maslak, all could be correct as there could be more than one interpretation of some things.
No idea why you are so defensive about Engineer. I have provided you evidence from my own experience how his followers are openly saying that some sahaba are greater than Prophet Isa As and Yahya As.

 

[Suleiman]

The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) gave us a sermon by which our hearts were filled with fear and tears came to our eyes. So we said, “O Messenger of Allah! It is as though this is a farewell sermon, so counsel us.” He (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, “I counsel you to have taqwa (fear) of Allah, and to listen and obey [your leader], even if a slave were to become your ameer. Verily he among you who lives long will see great controversy, so you must keep to my Sunnah and to the Sunnah of the Khulafa ar-Rashideen (the rightly guided caliphs), those who guide to the right way. Cling to it stubbornly [literally: with your molar teeth]. Beware of newly invented matters [in the religion], for verily every bidah (innovation) is misguidance.”

[Abu Dawud]

 

[Suleiman]

@Justcrazy I don't get it. He calls me not call anyone a hypocrite yet when i tell him people abuse Hazrat Aisha RA (calling her an adultress nauzubillah) or Umar RA (as an unstable undercover yahudi nauzubillah), he says they are just "mistaken".
It's hard to argue with someone who already has a preconceived notion of him being right all the time and telling others to not believe everything the scholars teach that he doesn't like. Like you can be wrong as well on some positions not just Islamically but in life as well. You can't just go advising others to be careful while being extremely rigid on where you stand. We are all humans and it's natural for us to be erring at some point.

Right. I don’t believe in arguing for the sake of arguing or to create a spectacle. These things are not trivial that laymen like us can commentate on when the Ulema through history spent their entire life proving their worth in being able to discuss these matters.

These incidents between sahaba can be seen as if we see our elders or parents arguing as young children. How would it look if a 10 or 11 year old kid started to lecture their mom or dad when they disagree? Or if you or a long time friend of yours from childhood had a disagreement and your 10 your old son started to go off on him without understanding anything. The kid will probably be scolded because this is a disagreement between adults who care for each other deeply and you as a tiny little kid who doesn’t know better are completely out place to lecture any one, regardless of what your intention is.

 

[Farhan The Man]

These incidents between sahaba can be seen as if we see our elders or parents arguing as young children.

Our parents would be in jail if they resorted to killing each other.

These immediate muslims weren't just "arguing".

Untimely deaths of prophet's family deem otherwise: fatima. ali. hassan. hussain.