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RBS 20-20 Cup ***FINAL*** Karachi Dolphins Vs Sialkot Stallions. Afridi Vs Malik!

  • Thread starter Thread starter DM
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I have a question.

Good captain should know when to send his players in the lineup, right?

For months there have been complaints (mostly from the Afridi fans) against Malik and Team Management on why Afridi is not opening for Pakistan or why he is not promoted ahead of Mesbah, Moyo etc.? Specially on the shorter version of the game.

Afridi himself wanted to open for Pakistan last time around (asia cup). What better chance he would have had to show the whole cricketing world of his talent? Why did Afridi hold himself back? I for sure thought he would have bat either as a opener or a 1st down. Certainly not after 2nd down.

Is he not sure of himself against no name bowlers of Sialkot?
 
the_game said:
The voice of reason. Thank you SY!

A special note about the "alleged patriotic gestures"; supporting Malik does not make you a loyal supporter of the Pakistani team, as some people here like to impose that notion upon others and it has become very tiring in nature. This was a domestic 20/20 tournament; we have all seen what brave Malik sahab has done in the past year (I'm not even talking about the win-loss ratio against big teams, although that does prove my point; I'm talking about his sotu approach on the field and how it has not changed AT ALL since he was made captain).
:))) ...you do have a point there but still well done Shoaib.
 
BD-fan said:
I have a question.

Good captain should know when to send his players in the lineup, right?

For months there have been complaints (mostly from the Afridi fans) against Malik and Team Management on why Afridi is not opening for Pakistan or why he is not promoted ahead of Mesbah, Moyo etc.? Specially on the shorter version of the game.

Afridi himself wanted to open for Pakistan last time around (asia cup). What better chance he would have had to show the whole cricketing world of his talent? Why did Afridi hold himself back? I for sure thought he would have bat either as a opener or a 1st down. Certainly not after 2nd down.

Is he not sure of himself against no name bowlers of Sialkot?
he doesn't want to open but it is the commentators that make people think that where he should be playing and sometimes that is the opinion people will come with because some commentator said so. It is better to listen to other commentaries (meaning not ex-players) because they comment on the game and not giving their expert opinions. Right now the only option I have is BBC's radio commentary when England is playing at home and they don't block it for people outside USA. BBC does have crickets in commentary box like Agnew and they have experts like Boycott or Gatting or Ramiz (depends on who is playing) but you hear the commentators talking more and not some stratagist talking all the time. That is the reason PP commentary was better when they did it.

Even for the English T20 I was listening to BBC and not SKY commentators. Have a commentator and then have an expert like Naser Hussain or Holding
 
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Congrats to Sialkot. I guess they just keep on winning this 20/20 comp. I donno what it is, but they seem to play well in this format. I was wanting the Dophins to win today, but I'll be a Sialkot fan come Champions Trophy time and there's no reason why they cant perform well in that comp.

From all 20/20 games we have seen so far, it has become pretty clear that its not always the team that looks best on paper that wins it - India winning the 2020 World Cup, Rajasthan winning the IPL, and now Sialkot winning the RBS Cup.

Now in regards to who should be our national team captain, a 20/20 game is never going to decide that. We were all mesmerised by Malik in the 2020 World Cup in South Africa, but we all saw the reality when we saw him captain in a test match. As far as I can see both Malik and Afridi are not captain material. Misbah or Younis still seem to me the best options.
 
People need to stop defending both Malik and Afridi, as one is a good all round player but doesn't have the ability to lead and another hardly performs well to claim the leading role. Both of them are incompetent and as genghis said, Misbah and Yonus are simply our best bet.
 
Wazeeri said:
Malik is already a proven failure at the international level. Anyone who has seen him captain knows that he is not comfortable or able to do the job.

Afridi from all we have seen is not reliable and selfish. Hence he needs to be kept away from the captaincy as well.

Yes agreed Malik has been a disappointment as a Captain. I had high expectation especially because of his team personality where he is not afraid to sacrafice for the team.

That being said one has to consider the team Malik had since he has been Captain. Inzi was lucky to have some very good players at his disposal but Malik has to contend with a large number of B grade player. True he has been reluctant to let new blood in but that maybe is not under his control as management made those calls.

Some of the match winners that Malik did not have (or for a short time) at his disposal

Akhtar - Barely played (injury, drugs)
Asif - Drugs enough said
Gul - partially injured
Razzaq - Injured and then banned
Afridi - Not the same with the Bat

On the plus side
YK has performed better compared to playing under Inzi
Misbah - enough said

So when we evaluate Malik against top tier teams we should keep in mind that he has been handicapped because of lack of match winners that we used to mainly in the bowling arena.
 
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DM said:
There are two arguments

1) Afridi's place in the team
2) Whether Afridi would be a good captain

We're not debating the first point, there are two sides to it, but assuming he does play, would Afridi be a good captain?

The answer to that question is that we won't know until we try him. As those who have watched this tournament, like Easa, have said: Afridi has been a good captain domestically.

Ok now did his erratic batting have a bearing on the quality of his captaincy? The answer to that question seems to be no.

So what conclusion is left? It's that we can't assume anything about Afridi's captaincy from his batting.

So please stop using it as an argument.

At the end, the real point would go back to first one. The only way PCB can appoint a captain if he is consistent and responsible. Malik is responsible and consistent player. He was the most consistent in under Inzimam captaincy. PCB saw the great deal on Malik and hoping to gamble on him whether he may sound very weak as captain, but at least very consistent performer. It's not same case of Afridi. Afridi needs to prove to be responsible first. He needs to earn the trust of PCB by scoring consistent to show that he is ready to lead. If he is not performing and has been considered to lead, wouldn't that set low example of appointing someone who is inconsistent and irresponsible. Maturity is what he also lacks too. No way he can be considered considering his records. Back to first one now ...see?
 
It's automatically assumed that if you like Afridi, you don't like Malik. That is not true at all -- I like Malik and I think he could get better as a captain, but facts are facts, and Shahid Afridi is the better captain among the two. It's not a question of batting, bowling, fielding, et cetera et cetera. Based purely on captaincy nuance, credential, and the intricacies of captaincy, Shahid Afridi is a better captain than Shoaib Malik. Poor batting from his team is not going to change that, not now, not ever.
 
People keep harping about how bad Malik has been against better sides as captain
but how many matches has he actually played as captain against good sides

25 out of that 5 are 2020s
so malik has been a captain for only 20 matches against good sides
and you already assume that he is a bad captain
he has won 7 and drawn 1 match
and in those 20 matches Pakistan had no matches against
WI, NZ, ENg, teams who are considered top sides but usually help a
captain imrove there win/loss ratio
ENg in Odi's and NZ in Tests. WI in both

Now out of the 12 matches Malik has lost as captain
how many were because of bad captaincy or some players not giving intentionally or unintentially there 100%.
 
DM, any other Goat-ologysts...a reply to post # 467 would be nice...Thanks!
 
Kriketer said:
People need to stop defending both Malik and Afridi, as one is a good all round player but doesn't have the ability to lead and another hardly performs well to claim the leading role. Both of them are incompetent and as genghis said, Misbah and Yonus are simply our best bet.

spot on
 
Monsee said:
In all honesty, I am not a fan of both the skippers but do tell me, someone anyone...how does a loss like this looks good for Afridi's captaincy, especially when he was marshaling one of the strongest teams in the competition...and this marks it twice under his captaincy that Karachi Dolphins have lost in the final?

Malik is not much of a skipper and for Afridi to lose to him in a final while Malik skippering one of the weaker teams in the tournament...makes Afridi's credentials as a skipper look meek and non-existent!
Those who have watched the tournament throughout were considerably impressed with Afridi's skill in various aspects of captiancy - including leadership and tactical awareness. Thus, that sample over a few games allows for certian factors to be determined reasonabley well. While the loss in the final does not "look good" as suggested, it does not detract from any of the qualities highlighted by Easa and others.

As for captaincy credentials being non-existent, if that was good enough for Malik, then sureley it is good enough for anyone else.

Nobody is saying Afridi is a miracle worker or a magician (although he may delve in some dark arts occasionally) - but his leadrship will certianly be a step in the right direction for Pakistan.
 
You know I can't stop people from feeling afridi is not the right choice and maybe due to his style of batting, it leads people to believe he will lack responsibility (although, see dm's last post to put that in perspective).

What I can't understand for the life of me is the support for malik over afridi! Malik's batting is nothing to write home about either and he has been our worst captain ever (yes even worse than inzi, something most of us thought would be impossible).

If people reasoned that they feel younis, yousuf or misbah are better candidates then there may be some logic to it, but to back a tried and test failure like malik over afridi is mind-boggling.
 
^^^ Fair enough GB, and agreed on most of your points but as a player, Afridi's utility for Pak team is going down with each passing day!

Even his bowling, if one exclude his achievements against the minnows and really weaker teams, is nothing special to write home about any more; he struggles to perform when pitted against the stronger teams!

Less said about his batting, the better!
 
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Monsee said:
^^^ Fair enough GB, and agreed on most of your points but as a player, Afridi's utility for Pak team is going down with each passing day!

Even his bowling, if one exclude his achievements against the minnows and really weaker teams, is nothing special to write home about any more; he struggles to perform when pitted against the stronger teams!

Less said about his batting, the better!
Like I said on some other thread, (don't even know which one, PP has been very crowded), you can twist statistics all you like but the simple fact of the matter is, in our last 12-18 months, with our bowling severely depleted and us lacking firepower, Shahid has really stepped it up with the ball. Yes, his average might have gone up a few notches against the non-minnows, but you have to remember, he bowls in the over 20-40 time period. It's not always the easiest to get wickets and a lot of spinners get milked around. However, Shahid consistently limits the runs and occasionally snatches the odd wicket or two.

Often, we see him end up with 1/40 or 2/40 and while that might not look spectacular on the scorecard, it is brilliant, especially when you're bowling during that time of the innings. Batsman can easily milk six singles in the over, especially with the defensive field most captains end up employing. So to do better than 60 runs, is an accomplishment.

His contribution doesn't end there. He is constantly geeing up our players, and I believe Afridi the captain also knows how to get the best out of players. In the recent RBS Twenty20 cup (which I watched LIVE by the way), Afridi did a lot of right things as captain. It was clear that the young players completely respected Shahid the player, as indicated by Anwar Ali during an interview, and thus, were willing to pick up tips and learn from him. Shahid has been around the international circuit for 12 years, so by now, he has a lot of valuable advice to give to people who are just donning the cap and initiating their careers.

Now, you can look at statistics, and you would conclude that Shahid had a decent, if not good tournament. I mean, he didn't contribute too much with the bat, his bowling was pretty good, and his captaincy was supposedly not good enough to win the cup. But those are just statistics. I saw the games live and Afridi was superb with the tactical, personal, and experimental side of things.

He came in when Karachi was seriously struggling in almost every single game (yeah, so much for Karachi being an immensely strong team), and had to dig them out of a hole each time. Unfortunately, he did not cross 28 but what was refreshing was his approach. He was playing with a straight bat and looking to hit over long off and long on. I think for a while, what he's lacked with his batting in international cricket, is time and confidence. He was coming in with a couple of overs left for Pakistan, and since he was so out of touch, he just continued his slump instead of picking himself up. For Karachi, he came in with plenty of time left and straight away looked a better player. His batting will come off eventually -- he just needs some time. It's quite clear he hasn't lost his reflexes -- he was still hitting 4's and 6's without finding the middle of the bat, and his mis-timed strokes are hit harder than others' timed ones.

He had a great tournament, but statistics won't show us that. Yes, he didn't win in the final, but even in the final, his captaincy was spot on, his bowling was superb, and his on-the-field tactical awareness was brilliant. He squeezed the life out of the Sialkot middle order and snuck the match back in our favor after their batsman only managed 120 odd. He led from the front, put his hand up, and delivered four superb overs, where he should have picked up a couple of wickets (he was denied Malik's wicket due to a lolly-drop).

Over all, I think people will always see him as some brainless slogger with no desire to succeed. I, however, see a burning desire to succeed, a lifting and refreshing approach on the field, and a batting idealogy that can reap great, great rewards with the right changes. And the best part of it all is... Pakistan can have it.
 
^^^ Going by all of the above, one can probably make some similar arguments for Malik the Skipper too...because after all he did have one of the weaker teams in the contest vs Afridi's strongest team!

Note: In my view none of the two have a real captain hidden inside them and could care less who becomes the next Pak captain as long as we start winning soon!
 
i agree with easa's view of watching afridi live and how he has shown reluctancy of becoming pakistan's captain what i dont understand is why people think that in a short space of time be it afridi/misbah/younis/malik/moyo they will do justice to lead Pakistan to victories, pakistan cricket has been hit the most with non-stop controversies with a far from perfect cricket structure from top to bottom, im not taking sides and saying afridi doesnt deserve to be captain and malik does, because as a PAKISTANI supporter im sure we all want the BEST for our team our nation to do well even if it means making drastic changes

what i am trying to pinpoint is, malik has been hard done by not having a full strength team to even choose his best 11 from and im sure he has tried a little bit even if people think he hasnt tried at all even if it meant winning against the minnows etc... anyhow what i think is the way our cricket is portrayed nowadays is a hell lot of different how it was in imran khan's era and yeh he was the best but we need to realise in order to be the best we have to all work towards the same goal, not individual goals, it is after all a team game, we dont have that unity left in our team that once upon a time we had where we were actually fighting like proper tigers and i still have hope that pakistan cricket can step back up into the top 3 international teams

whatever happend in this tournament was a good point to prove the PCB, selectors management etc and who knows, we now have a new chairman and if he means by what he says that there will be DRASTIC CHANGES to pakistan cricket i hope that its for the best interests of PAKISTAN and not for individuals

and before those anti-malik groupies try to attack me plz im not taking sides and im surely not here to defend malik's antics on n off the field, if as fans we want pakistan cricket to give us something to be happy about which we really are aching for then be it if captaincy has to be changed, so be it if management needs changing be it if the whole structure needs to be started from scratch, i for one cant take no more of this hole pakistan cricket is being dug into which is just getting deeper and deeper

this final was a good contest, some wanted it to be the battle of the best captaincy, some wanted to just enjoy pakistan cricket for once, and some just wanted to see our players at best all in all if Chairman does decide that malik should be replaced im sure it will be for the best and i wont stop supporting malik as a player as i have always done coz he has proven to be one of our best ODI players at present, and i hope and pray afridi gets his rythm back into his batting our team isnt the same without afridi, we all need to stand united behind each and every player otherwise we wont have a team and cricket will just fade away
 
I repeatedly hear about Malik not being happy with the selection of players for a particular tour, i just watched him yesterday making comments at airport while leaving for Canada that
"I will try to win the tournament with whatever team selectors have given me."
He is such a cry baby, if he is not happy with selection and other processes why doesn't he step aside? instead he keeps crying infront of media that
--> i am innocent baby
--> i won't be responsible if Pakistan loses, only selectors will be who chose the team.

this is ridiculous!! if Malik can't take responsibility then he should step aside instead of ruining Pakistan cricket and for God's sake: Stop crying in front of media and stop proving yourself innocent.

We need a strong character for captaincy who can take responsibility and influence on the selection process too!
 
Easa said:
Like I said on some other thread, (don't even know which one, PP has been very crowded), you can twist statistics all you like but the simple fact of the matter is, in our last 12-18 months, with our bowling severely depleted and us lacking firepower, Shahid has really stepped it up with the ball. Yes, his average might have gone up a few notches against the non-minnows, but you have to remember, he bowls in the over 20-40 time period. It's not always the easiest to get wickets and a lot of spinners get milked around. However, Shahid consistently limits the runs and occasionally snatches the odd wicket or two.

Often, we see him end up with 1/40 or 2/40 and while that might not look spectacular on the scorecard, it is brilliant, especially when you're bowling during that time of the innings. Batsman can easily milk six singles in the over, especially with the defensive field most captains end up employing. So to do better than 60 runs, is an accomplishment.

His contribution doesn't end there. He is constantly geeing up our players, and I believe Afridi the captain also knows how to get the best out of players. In the recent RBS Twenty20 cup (which I watched LIVE by the way), Afridi did a lot of right things as captain. It was clear that the young players completely respected Shahid the player, as indicated by Anwar Ali during an interview, and thus, were willing to pick up tips and learn from him. Shahid has been around the international circuit for 12 years, so by now, he has a lot of valuable advice to give to people who are just donning the cap and initiating their careers.

Now, you can look at statistics, and you would conclude that Shahid had a decent, if not good tournament. I mean, he didn't contribute too much with the bat, his bowling was pretty good, and his captaincy was supposedly not good enough to win the cup. But those are just statistics. I saw the games live and Afridi was superb with the tactical, personal, and experimental side of things.

He came in when Karachi was seriously struggling in almost every single game (yeah, so much for Karachi being an immensely strong team), and had to dig them out of a hole each time. Unfortunately, he did not cross 28 but what was refreshing was his approach. He was playing with a straight bat and looking to hit over long off and long on. I think for a while, what he's lacked with his batting in international cricket, is time and confidence. He was coming in with a couple of overs left for Pakistan, and since he was so out of touch, he just continued his slump instead of picking himself up. For Karachi, he came in with plenty of time left and straight away looked a better player. His batting will come off eventually -- he just needs some time. It's quite clear he hasn't lost his reflexes -- he was still hitting 4's and 6's without finding the middle of the bat, and his mis-timed strokes are hit harder than others' timed ones.

He had a great tournament, but statistics won't show us that. Yes, he didn't win in the final, but even in the final, his captaincy was spot on, his bowling was superb, and his on-the-field tactical awareness was brilliant. He squeezed the life out of the Sialkot middle order and snuck the match back in our favor after their batsman only managed 120 odd. He led from the front, put his hand up, and delivered four superb overs, where he should have picked up a couple of wickets (he was denied Malik's wicket due to a lolly-drop).

Over all, I think people will always see him as some brainless slogger with no desire to succeed. I, however, see a burning desire to succeed, a lifting and refreshing approach on the field, and a batting idealogy that can reap great, great rewards with the right changes. And the best part of it all is... Pakistan can have it.
This is a great post and I just hope people would take time to read it. He'd get full purchase out of every single player, and that's what you want in a captain.
 
I'm pretty sure I predicted Sailkot to win. Special win for Sailkot considering amount of players they were missing.
 
SAM'S said:
I repeatedly hear about Malik not being happy with the selection of players for a particular tour, i just watched him yesterday making comments at airport while leaving for Canada that
"I will try to win the tournament with whatever team selectors have given me."
He is such a cry baby, if he is not happy with selection and other processes why doesn't he step aside? instead he keeps crying infront of media that
--> i am innocent baby
--> i won't be responsible if Pakistan loses, only selectors will be who chose the team.

this is ridiculous!! if Malik can't take responsibility then he should step aside instead of ruining Pakistan cricket and for God's sake: Stop crying in front of media and stop proving yourself innocent.

We need a strong character for captaincy who can take responsibility and influence on the selection process too!


That mean Imran Khan is baby to you too? Imran Khan also whined about selecting matters in the past. If we want Pakistan to win under Malik captaincy, then best way is to let him have his say on selection matters. Otherwise, why make him captain if we won't let have his say on selection matters? People didn't have problem with Imran Khan as being dictator, and followed by Inzimam to continue furthermore till the WC 07. I feel that people personally just hate Shoaib Malik. I can't blame on Malik if the players like Afridi who is not helpful to team, has let the team to lose consistently, and suddenly we blame on Malik. That shows why Malik is freaked out and needed a fine replacement of players who aren't performing.
 
MalikMohsin said:
That mean Imran Khan is baby to you too? Imran Khan also whined about selecting matters in the past. If we want Pakistan to win under Malik captaincy, then best way is to let him have his say on selection matters. Otherwise, why make him captain if we won't let have his say on selection matters? People didn't have problem with Imran Khan as being dictator, and followed by Inzimam to continue furthermore till the WC 07. I feel that people personally just hate Shoaib Malik. I can't blame on Malik if the players like Afridi who is not helpful to team, has let the team to lose consistently, and suddenly we blame on Malik. That shows why Malik is freaked out and needed a fine replacement of players who aren't performing.
i can't recall either Imran or Inzi ever crying in front of media about selection matters, in fact they made themselves so strong that they dictated the board on their own terms. On the other hand Malik has been captaining for long time now, what positives have we seen except baby chants?
FYI, i don't hate Malik, i (or anyone) don't have any right to hate him. In fact, we want to see an ambassador who can represent Pakistan Cricket, not a cry baby!
 
SAM'S said:
i can't recall either Imran or Inzi ever crying in front of media about selection matters, in fact they made themselves so strong that they dictated the board on their own terms. On the other hand Malik has been captaining for long time now, what positives have we seen except baby chants?
FYI, i don't hate Malik, i (or anyone) don't have any right to hate him. In fact, we want to see an ambassador who can represent Pakistan Cricket, not a cry baby!

Not sure about Inzimam since he was given an access to select. But Imran did cry in public and was on the verge to retire, but later, convinced by Prime Minister to change his mind, and agreed to fulfill Imran Khan condition (Selection matters).
 
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