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Ricky Ponting vs Rahul Dravid

Which was a better Test Player?

  • Ricky Ponting

    Votes: 24 52.2%

  • Rahul Dravid

    Votes: 22 47.8%
  • Total voters
    46
Saqs

Saqs

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Tests only.

Both with 12,000+ runs

Both with a similar average (53 odd)

Both have played a similar number of games (154 or so)

Both play at number 3

Both have been instrumental in most of their Test wins they've been involved in.

Both brilliant players of fast bowling.

Although Dravid vs spinners would be the better player.

So who takes it?

I would go for Punter mainly because of his more aggressive style. I would wager his strike rate would be the one thing that sets them apart.
 
Both are good fielders as well...

Ponting may just be the best fielder around after Rhodes and Dravid has been a very good catcher throughout his life.....
 
Everything for them is same except their playing style, Ponting was more aggressive. He pushed things on or he could afford to with the batting lineup Aussies had whereas Dravid always had to stay there and others revolved around him. 2002-2007 was golden period for Dravid and Ponting, both had their averages upto 58 almost.

Pace - both play well
Spin - Dravid slightly better
Fielding - Ponting

So hard to find anyone really better than the other, might say that Ponting did that all in captaincy pressure. So yeah its just anyone's pick.
 
Dravid definitely !

Again today he is showing how great a player he is, still fighting out there unbeaten on 59
 
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Ponting would be fuming. He must feel like he should be challenging the number one spot - but it looks like everyone (Even the commentators) are comparing him to Dravid and Kallis!
 
Well Ponting has a pretty solid strike rate advantage (59 to 42), so I'd take him, but if you needed to draw a Test match, dravid is the option (nearly 10,000 more balls faced in basically the same amount of time!).
 
Difficult........let them both retire and then may be we can decide.

Still After Bradman these 2 are the best no.3 in 120 years of test match cricket.
 
I dunno if it's just me but I rate Dravid higher as a cricketer than any other cricketers on the scene. Fair enough he might not quite be as good as Sachin or Bradman, or he might not have the test strike rate of Ponting but still he's a great personality and an asset to the game. Respect goes out to Dravid.
 
Ponting. Because he was possibly the most key cog in the most sucessful test team in history.

The guy was a monster 2003-2007!

Nuff said.
 
Dravid now also has a Lords hundred which Ponting doesn't have :))
 
Ponting at his peak and Dravid over the course of a long career.
 
Ponting.

Can't compare a grafter with a strokemaker.

Any top player can graft like Dravid if need be - Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Inzi have all played stodgy low-risk innnings and scored centuries. KP managed it in the first innings of this match.

Even someone like Yousuf, who isn't the most technically correct, beat Viv Richards' record of runs in a calendar year when he turned himself into a grafter for that period.

Dravid vs. Kallis vs. Chanderpaul etc.- he's the best of the Graham Thorpe-type players.
 
SOSami said:
Ponting.

Can't compare a grafter with a strokemaker.

Any top player can graft like Dravid if need be - Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Inzi have all played stodgy low-risk innnings and scored centuries. KP managed it in the first innings of this match.

Even someone like Yousuf, who isn't the most technically correct, beat Viv Richards' record of runs in a calendar year when he turned himself into a grafter for that period.

Dravid vs. Kallis vs. Chanderpaul etc.- he's the best of the Graham Thorpe-type players.
Click to expand...

Strongly disagree there.
Not anybody can graft like Dravid on will. I am a huge Tendulkar fan but when he tries to do a Dravid he fails miserably. Same with Ponting. Dravid is just a specialist at pressure absorbing and fighting a long battle of patience.
Trott is not there, just because he had a good year doesnt make him Dravid 2. We don't quite know where will Trott's average permanently settle once he is through the complete cycle of life which is yet to go through the downfall
 
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Both amazing, but I would take Ponting simply because he has the ability to take the game away fom the other team.

Dravid can labour his way to runs, but dont see him beating the opposition into submission
 
Comparing Dravid with Graham Thorpe is an insult......

and he is at least couple of miles ahead of Inzi or Chanderpaul.

So if anyone can play an Innings like Dravid why dont more people have his test runs.
 
KP did. I've seen Sachin do it in Pakistan when he nearly made his double century. Inzi did it near the end of his career. Ponting did it in the 2005 Ashes. Even Chris Gayle did it during a test match during the Windies tour of Australia when he got his century.

Most batsmen can.
 
Upset with you Sami...

You are picking out flash-in-the-pan instances but Dravid has done that special thing time and time again to great effect. It's why India have lost only once when he has scored one of his 31 test centuries and why he has 12000 test runs.
 
asifp said:
Both amazing, but I would take Ponting simply because he has the ability to take the game away fom the other team.

Dravid can labour his way to runs, but dont see him beating the opposition into submission
Click to expand...

He does make them quit
 
SOSami said:
KP did. I've seen Sachin do it in Pakistan when he nearly made his double century. Inzi did it near the end of his career. Ponting did it in the 2005 Ashes. Even Chris Gayle did it during a test match during the Windies tour of Australia when he got his century.

Most batsmen can.
Click to expand...

Most batsmen CAN do it for a test / season :moyo but how many players have been able to do it over a decade..... especially in alien conditions....

As for OP I think Whippy post sums up my response as well
 
SOSami said:
KP did. I've seen Sachin do it in Pakistan when he nearly made his double century. Inzi did it near the end of his career. Ponting did it in the 2005 Ashes. Even Chris Gayle did it during a test match during the Windies tour of Australia when he got his century.

Most batsmen can.
Click to expand...

Not saying Sachin can't, obviously he can. Not the best for nothing. But Dravid specializes in that thing. That's his bread and butter
 
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He's done the same thing over and over again because he's incapable as a batsman of consistently playing any other way.

I'm not denying he is probably the best ever at what he does. What he does however, most top batsmen could do and have done when required.

It comes down to the old strike rate equation - the lower the strike rate, the lower the risk, the higher the average.

Dravid plays the odds, knows he cannot dominate good bowlers so defends them. Lara, Sachin, Ponting, Inzi all attack opposition bowlers, which increases the risk of them getting out but also allows them to exhibit their higher skill levels.
 
SOSami said:
He's done the same thing over and over again because he's incapable as a batsman of consistently playing any other way.

I'm not denying he is probably the best ever at what he does. What he does however, most top batsmen could do and have done when required.

It comes down to the old strike rate equation - the lower the strike rate, the lower the risk, the higher the average.

Dravid plays the odds, knows he cannot dominate good bowlers so defends them. Lara, Sachin, Ponting, Inzi all attack opposition bowlers, which increases the risk of them getting out but also allows them to exhibit their higher skill levels.
Click to expand...

Again fail, Tendulkar is the best ever.
But he can't do a Dravid on will most times. He will fail 7 out of 10 times doing a Dravid
 
Sachin , Lara & Ponting can rub opposition noses in the dirt.

Dravid cannot.Well maybe he could have but he never tried so can't be compared to the sacred trio.
 
Can't go wrong with either player.

However, Ponting has always been my favorite player that isn't Pakistani. Therefore, it isn't really a hard choice for me.

Ponting's style attracts one to the ground. Attacking stroke play, technical class and supreme confidence. Dravid is a brilliant defensive player, one of the best the game has seen. He has his own way of going about things and no one does it better than him.

Still, as a fan Punter is the better watch. Plus, Ponting has had the pressure of captaincy for almost his entire career. Even if it was the great Australian team he was leading, it isn't easy to balance both aspects, he's done it brilliantly.
 
Both are greats of game. It is a tough, tough call. Both are top notch test batsmen. I can't decide for myself whom to rate higher. But one should remember Australia always had solid openers, life for Ponting at 3 was much easier than Dravid who only in recent years got benefit of stable Gambhir/Sehwag combo providing solid platform.
 
Some interesting stats below....

This is the batting record of players when the following players were in the opposition team...

Ambrose, Donald, Garner, Waqar, Wasim, Imran, Mcgrath, Warne, Marshall, Hadlee, Lillee, Murali, Pollock, Thomson, Bob Willis, Trueman Arguably the best ever bowlers?

RT Ponting 58.46
IVA Richards 52.48
BC Lara 50.02
SM Gavaskar 49.14
Majid Khan 49.06
G Boycott 47.86
KD Walters 47.64
NS Sidhu 47.4
MJ Slater 47.32
A Flower 46.92
Javed Miandad 46.91
AR Border 45.76
M Azharuddin 45.71
SR Waugh 44.2
GS Chappell 43.97
SR Tendulkar 43.57
RR Sarwan 42.95
ME Trescothick 42.28
Inzamam-ul-Haq 42.01
GP Thorpe 41.62
JH Kallis 41.55
CH Lloyd 41
RA Smith 40.96
MD Crowe 40.83
R Dravid 40.75
GR Viswanath 40.71
M Amarnath 40.32

Minimum 2000 runs

(By no means is this an overall ranking of players.... but a good piece of evidence when making a call)
 
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MR__KHAN__JI -- If I remember correctly, cricinfo already conducted a statistical research on all the top batsmen of various generations against top quality attacks. They conducted a very comprehensive research in that article. I think I posted that link some where...Will check that link...
 
Ponting for me any time any day! He is a joy to watch. Dravid is a player of old iskool of test. Ponting a modern batsman with modern approach.
 
cricketfanfirst said:
MR__KHAN__JI -- If I remember correctly, cricinfo already conducted a statistical research on all the top batsmen of various generations against top quality attacks. They conducted a very comprehensive research in that article. I think I posted that link some where...Will check that link...
Click to expand...

Using the Cricinfo BQI
Where 1 represents the best BQI


HTML: 
             Name	1	2	3	4	5	Inns	Runs	HS	Ave
RT Ponting (Aus)	48.49	44.37	61.26	58.95	44.27	259	12363	257	53.51
R Dravid (ICC/India)	36.90	52.46	57.02	59.17	98.70	266	12417	270	52.83

Dravid is an average bowler bully - when compared to Ponting.
 
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I have the most conclusive stat: strike rate 42.27.

42 runs per 100 balls.

42. Runs. Per. 100. Balls.
 
SOSami said:
Lara = Tendulkar > Ponting > Dravid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kallis.
Click to expand...

I third that. Kallis is a solid player, very effective with the bat but not a particularly exciting player to watch

Jonathan Trott is again a correct, solid batsman, very effective with the bat but nothing more. Kevin Pietersen is the only 'legend' material among the current English batsmen. A legend to me is someone who can improvise with the bat as well.
 
SOSami said:
I have the most conclusive stat: strike rate 42.27.

42 runs per 100 balls.

42. Runs. Per. 100. Balls.
Click to expand...

I hope you also rate Inzamam quite low in your ODI list for the very reason
 
MR__KHAN__JI said:
Some interesting stats below....

This is the batting record of players when the following players were in the opposition team...

Ambrose, Donald, Garner, Waqar, Wasim, Imran, Mcgrath, Warne, Marshall, Hadlee, Lillee, Murali, Pollock, Thomson, Bob Willis, Trueman Arguably the best ever bowlers?

RT Ponting 58.46
IVA Richards 52.48
BC Lara 50.02
SM Gavaskar 49.14
Majid Khan 49.06
G Boycott 47.86
KD Walters 47.64
NS Sidhu 47.4
MJ Slater 47.32
A Flower 46.92
Javed Miandad 46.91
AR Border 45.76
M Azharuddin 45.71
SR Waugh 44.2
GS Chappell 43.97
SR Tendulkar 43.57
RR Sarwan 42.95
ME Trescothick 42.28
Inzamam-ul-Haq 42.01
GP Thorpe 41.62
JH Kallis 41.55
CH Lloyd 41
RA Smith 40.96
MD Crowe 40.83
R Dravid 40.75
GR Viswanath 40.71
M Amarnath 40.32

Minimum 2000 runs

(By no means is this an overall ranking of players.... but a good piece of evidence when making a call)
Click to expand...

When the heck did Ponting play against Warne & Mcgrath ? Filter it buddy remove more than half of the names on your list and lets see how he stacks up ;)
 
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Oh yeah Ponting >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kills Dravid......


In real life:


SRT >>>>>>> (NO ONE) >>>>>>>>> (Lara)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ponting>>>> Kalliss>>>>>>>>>DRAVID
 
Include Harbhajan and Flintoff in that list and re check Ponting's average :)))
 
Some interesting points made.

I think people aren't giving SOSami enough credit for the point he has made. Is that the low risk player that Dravid is, if the "sacred trio" were to adopt a low risk shot policy they could grind out the runs Dravid has also (remember Sachin in Adelaide when he shelved his cover drive for being too risky?). Boring innings relatively but he still made 200 didn't he?

The very fact that Ponting, Lara and Sachin have scored runs there or thereabouts at a higher strike rate is the thing that must set them apart.

Would be interested to see the amount of 2nd innings tons the aforementioned have.
 
Kallis avg 57 and is an allrounder........Sachin avg 56.....Dravid 52 and Ponting 53

so he's better than all those above mentioned cricketers........
 
Saqib Salman said:
Some interesting points made.

I think people aren't giving SOSami enough credit for the point he has made. Is that the low risk player that Dravid is, if the "sacred trio" were to adopt a low risk shot policy they could grind out the runs Dravid has also (remember Sachin in Adelaide when he shelved his cover drive for being too risky?). Boring innings relatively but he still made 200 didn't he?

The very fact that Ponting, Lara and Sachin have scored runs there or thereabouts at a higher strike rate is the thing that must set them apart.

Would be interested to see the amount of 2nd innings tons the aforementioned have.
Click to expand...

That exactly the reason why Dravid is not counted with the greats ( Ponting,Lara and SRT) and he will be always be a shadow of these guys. However I would say Dravid will probably be the last good batsman who played conventional test cricket. Wasim in the commentary box pointed out that and I agree with him.
 
Both these are great batsmen and have different styles. If you are trying to save a game, I will pick Rahul and I will be assured he will do his best to grind out the attack and save me the game; If I want to setup a target and try to chase down the target then I would pick Ponting.

However my personal favourite is Ponting, a magnificent stroke maker and I used to love his ferocious pull/hooks.
 
MR__KHAN__JI said:
Some interesting stats below....

This is the batting record of players when the following players were in the opposition team...

Ambrose, Donald, Garner, Waqar, Wasim, Imran, Mcgrath, Warne, Marshall, Hadlee, Lillee, Murali, Pollock, Thomson, Bob Willis, Trueman Arguably the best ever bowlers?

RT Ponting 58.46
IVA Richards 52.48
BC Lara 50.02
SM Gavaskar 49.14
Majid Khan 49.06
G Boycott 47.86
KD Walters 47.64
NS Sidhu 47.4
MJ Slater 47.32
A Flower 46.92
Javed Miandad 46.91
AR Border 45.76
M Azharuddin 45.71
SR Waugh 44.2
GS Chappell 43.97
SR Tendulkar 43.57
RR Sarwan 42.95
ME Trescothick 42.28
Inzamam-ul-Haq 42.01
GP Thorpe 41.62
JH Kallis 41.55
CH Lloyd 41
RA Smith 40.96
MD Crowe 40.83
R Dravid 40.75
GR Viswanath 40.71
M Amarnath 40.32

Minimum 2000 runs

(By no means is this an overall ranking of players.... but a good piece of evidence when making a call)
Click to expand...



Interesting. Good job.
 
Pointing has to be considered better than Dravid. Pointing wins more games, Test wins are not easy, you need your batsman to set it up and give the bowlers the time to get opposition out. That is precisely why Shewag is considered a match winner. This does not take Away the fact that Dravid has been one of the very best.......
 
Romali_rotti said:
When the heck did Ponting play against Warne & Mcgrath ? Filter it buddy remove more than half of the names on your list and lets see how he stacks up ;)
Click to expand...

Filtered buddy.

For Aussie batsmen - Mcgrath and Warne were excluded from the matches considered. :)

Its much in line with Cricinfo's analysis also - see above.
 
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MR__KHAN__JI said:
Filtered buddy.

For Aussie batsmen - Mcgrath and Warne were excluded from filter. :)
Click to expand...

So basically he only faced, Ambrose, (Wasim & Waqar who he seems to have owned), Murali & Pollock...

vs WI's before Ambrose retired; filtered 9 16 3 520 104 92 88 40.00

vs Pakistan before the 2 W's retired :O filtered 7 10 1 658 197 150 141 73.11 3 1 3

vs SA before Pollock retired: filtered 21 2030 143* 56.38 8 10 0 - - 0 30 0
 
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this is same like comparing Pietersen V :yk.........

both different kind of batsmen.......

if team is in trouble i want Dravid.......else Ponting is aggressive and a matchwinner (and cocky douche)
 
Both are different. So you would choose them only after looking at the full composition of your top+middle order.

But i def liked the stat that both have played near about equal test match and with different styles and aggression.. matched each other for the number of runs and pretty mch the avg part as well.


I wouldnt pick up Tricky Ponting cuz i wdnt want any penalty/warning for pointing finger at the umpire :P
 
spiron said:
Both are different. So you would choose them only after looking at the full composition of your top+middle order.

But i def liked the stat that both have played near about equal test match and with different styles and aggression.. matched each other for the number of runs and pretty mch the avg part as well.
Click to expand...

Fair call.

The similarities in stats also surprise me.

I wonder though if Dravid didn't play amongst the greatest Indian middle order - would he have been as successful? Would he have had to change his style of play somewhat.
 
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RexRex said:
Sachin , Lara & Ponting can rub opposition noses in the dirt.

Dravid cannot.Well maybe he could have but he never tried so can't be compared to the sacred trio.
Click to expand...

Point taken but I think Dravid can rub it in via different means. Just sticks in there for hours and hours and wears down a team.
 
MR__KHAN__JI said:
Players over 11500 runs....

Ponting>Lara>Kallis>Dravid>Tendu
Click to expand...

Kallis & Dravid Two of the Best Copy Book Test Player of All time ( Probably ) -- Purely depends on their Technique to stay on the crease and carry their innings through by building up partnerships with others.

Pontion, Lara & SRT.. These players Came into this Planet to Play Cricket and Make it Great Sport itself.

No Matter Which Form of Cricket you put ahead of them, They Gonna Rule the Game through their Sheer Merits.

SRT --- Best as his Stats Says,

Lara - The Ultimate Run Machine Born in a Wrong Era to Represent his Country.

Ponting --- He is Bit Of Both of SRT & Lara..

As great as Lara as a Run Machine,

As Great As SRT - To Follow His Career Stats..

--------------------

Now Coming to the Point of Ponting vs Dravid.

Ponting is a bit better in my eyes. Because, He has the ability to switch his batting style according to the Match situation..

This is where Dravid Fails.. He is One Dimensional Batsman..

But Hang On.. Both the Batsmen Proved the World.. They are Nothing short of Genius in terms of Batting Successfully all over the World..

Enough Said.
 
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MR__KHAN__JI said:
Using the Cricinfo BQI
Where 5 represents the best BQI


HTML: 
             Name	5	4	3	2	1	Inns	Runs	HS	Ave
RT Ponting (Aus)	48.49	44.37	61.26	58.95	44.27	259	12363	257	53.51
R Dravid (ICC/India)	36.90	52.46	57.02	59.17	98.70	266	12417	270	52.83

Dravid is an average bowler bully - when compared to Ponting.
Click to expand...

Here's the article link:
http://blogs.espncricinfo.com/itfigures/archives/2011/05/batsman_against_bowler_groups.php#more

(Changed the numbering scheme to match the article. 5 is the best BQI)
I'm not going to dismiss your point, but-

1) BQI 4 and 3 are decent attacks as well, and Dravid has performed very well there.

2) The statistical analysis does try to account for home and away by a BQI adjustment of 5%, but I'm not convinced. I think there should be a larger difference between spanking the south African attack on a flat Indian pitch for 300, or spanking them for 150 on a spicy Wanderers pitch, like Dravid did.

3) dravid's group 5 performance are weighed down by being inconsistent against australian attacks with shane warne and mcgrath.....attacks ponting never played against :).

That said, I think you make a valid point about how scarily consistent Ponting was. Looking at those tables in detail, his great stats are because he scored heavily against Pak (shoaib and Waqar), SA (pollock, nel and ntini) and WI (ambrose and Walsh).

Here are some of his great "bqi 5" matches.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/238202.html
(Nel, Pollock, Ntini)

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64001.html
(Waqar, Shoaib and Saqlain)

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63839.html
(Walsh and Ambrose)

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/351682.html
(Steyn, ntini, Kallis and Morkel - a 101 and a 99).

Group 5 includes mostly South African, Pakistani and West Indian attacks, all teams that ponting dominated because he played pace so well. I would say Ponting at his prime, was the greatest player of pace in the last 20 years. Even compared to Sachin, perhaps.



Dravid's performance against BQI 5 isn't so horrible. He has a 233 against Aus at Adelaide, the famous 180 at Kolkata and a 148 (at the Wanderers) against SA in group 5, three very historic innings right there! He's weighed down by a bunch of low scores against SA, Australian attacks with Warne and McGrath (which Ponting never played against) and the West Indies of the late 90s.

I encourage anyone who's seriously interested to look up the full list of bqi 5 innings themselves.
http://www.thirdslip.com/misc/testgrp5.txt

Romali_rotti said:
So basically he only faced, Ambrose, (Wasim & Waqar who he seems to have owned), Murali & Pollock...

vs WI's before Ambrose retired; filtered 9 16 3 520 104 92 88 40.00

vs Pakistan before the 2 W's retired :O filtered 7 10 1 658 197 150 141 73.11 3 1 3

vs SA before Pollock retired: filtered 21 2030 143* 56.38 8 10 0 - - 0 30 0
Click to expand...

Yes, this explains why Ponting ranks high in the "BQI 5" innings that Cricinfo listed and Khan-ji references. Looking at the full list of BQI 5 innings, it's mostly Ponting beating the heck out of Waqar, Wasim, saqlain, Ambrose, Pollock and Steyn (WI, SA and PAK).

The man is a genius against pace bowling.
 
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People talking up Ponting's performances against quality pace bowling ought to consider the 2005, 2009 and 2010/11 Ashes. One innings for the ages, but otherwise failed under pressure time and time again.
 
One should look at Tendus average performances in BQI 5.

Also Sobers and Richards and Lara and Ponting and Kallis.

Nudge Nudge wink wink.

I found it really FUNNY that the article rather than focus on averages when it was showing the BQI 5s.... it showed number of runs scored. Thus rewarding longevity rather than skill.

Perhaps that's one for another thread though.
 
Whippy said:
People talking up Ponting's performances against quality pace bowling ought to consider the 2005, 2009 and 2010/11 Ashes. One innings for the ages, but otherwise failed under pressure time and time again.
Click to expand...

He averaged 40 in the 2005 Ashes, which included one of the great test match innings of 156. He averaged a strong 48 in the 2009 Ashes with another score of 150. And no, you're not allowed to take out the 150s from his performance, that's what some fans attempted to do with Pietersen's 200 at Adelaide and it's unfair.

The fact that those decent (if not mindblowing) performances in 2005, 2009 stand out to you as the nadir of Ponting's career, indicates just how amazing a batsman he was at his best.

Yes, he was atrocious in the 2010/11 Ashes, but I think it's generally accepted that he's been a shadow of himself the past 2 years. I like your posts generally, but perhaps Ponting's poor captaincy is blurring your memory of his good Ashes performances? He still averages 44 against England even after that horror summer, and that is the lowest average he has against any country. A testimony to how many attacks he's dominated.

MR__KHAN__JI said:
One should look at Tendus average performances in BQI 5.

Also Sobers and Richards and Lara and Ponting and Kallis.

Nudge Nudge wink wink.
Click to expand...

When I came to this thread, I first wanted to argue with you about Dravid, because he's underrated. (And I still think he is very underrated). Looking through some of Ponting's stats and innings against quality pace attacks, I've been forced to reconsider though. Great player.
 
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Whippy said:
People talking up Ponting's performances against quality pace bowling ought to consider the 2005, 2009 and 2010/11 Ashes. One innings for the ages, but otherwise failed under pressure time and time again.
Click to expand...

Also, remember a series in 2008, where Ponting failed against Ishant Sharma and Zaheer Khan, who were at the peak of their powers in India. Ishant was getting very good bounce and swinging the ball in at high pace and also Zaheer was very good during that tour. Tight spells of good quality pace bowling at both ends did him during that time. You have to watch the video of that series to see the trouble Ponting had during that tour. This tour convinced me what good quality of pace & seam bowling (not even express pace) at both ends consistently can do to a batsmen. Mathew Hayden handled it pretty poorly and it is the only tour in India where he failed miserably.

But, inspite of the above, Ponting is still one of the better players of pace, he still had great success at times against high quality bowling. This is the reason he gets a nod from me anytime over a Mathew Hayden.

As said earlier, will choose Ponting over Dravid if I need to set a target and Dravid over Ponting if I need to save a game.
 
Everyone here knows and appreciates the 156. Now let's look beyond the averages for one second and see what impact his failures had on the Ashes series' that he lost. This is not about him as a captain but as a batsman.

2005
Two relative failures at Lords.
Registered a zero in the run chase at Edgbaston - the game and series then swung England's way.
Part of a top order collapse that nearly led to Australia following on at Old Trafford.
Completely tanked at Trent Bridge with the follow-on and the run-out that handed England the Ashes on a plate.

2009
Two more failures at Lords in a heavy defeat.
Two relative failures at Edgbaston.
A first innings flop and another second innings run-out at the Oval, as Australia relinquished the Ashes again.

2011
Limped to a lesser series aggregate than some of his tail-enders and was a thoroughly demoralising influence in the middle for the rest of his team. Bear in mind he was up against one of the most impressive pace batteries to tour Australia in some time. His tantrum at the MCG was all about his own form and his team's failings and nothing to do with Kevin Pietersen's inside edge.

The only times he has delivered more than the bare minimum against England as captaining batsman is the 156 - which IS one to tell your grandkids about - and the 2006/7 series, where England were under-performing and being badly managed, and Australia were in their own backyard winning all of the tests. On this evidence, is his capability against quality pace bowling overhyped - particularly when he is put under a bit of pressure? Not definitely, but quite possibly.

Disclaimer: No disrespect to Ponting who is a genuine great of the game, merely presenting another side to the debate.
 
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cricketfanfirst said:
Also, remember a series in 2008, where Ponting failed against Ishant Sharma and Zaheer Khan, who were at the peak of their powers in India. Ishant was getting very good bounce and swinging the ball in at high pace and also Zaheer was very good during that tour. Tight spells of good quality pace bowling at both ends did him during that time. You have to watch the video of that series to see the trouble Ponting had during that tour. This tour convinced me what good quality of pace & seam bowling (not even express pace) at both ends consistently can do to a batsmen. Mathew Hayden handled it pretty poorly and it is the only tour in India where he failed miserably.

But, inspite of the above, Ponting is still one of the better players of pace, he still had great success at times against high quality bowling. This is the reason he gets a nod from me anytime over a Mathew Hayden.

As said earlier, will choose Ponting over Dravid if I need to set a target and Dravid over Ponting if I need to save a game.
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Good post - I will 'retweet' this!
 
Both Ponting and Dravid are through their peak and downfall, who stands tall now ?
 
Whippy said:
Everyone here knows and appreciates the 156. Now let's look beyond the averages for one second and see what impact his failures had on the Ashes series' that he lost. This is not about him as a captain but as a batsman.
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It wasn't just the 156. I'd also add his 78 at Headingley 2009. that helped set up an innings victory for Australia with a big first innings lead.

Also, his 150 at cardiff, 2009 that almost won Australia the match but for rain and a gritty last wicket partnership. It would hardly be fair to take away from a match winning innings because of rain.

He averages 40 and 48 for those two series, because he contributed on more than one occasion, and swung several matches Australia's way. I'm not saying they were his greatest series ever, but he did reasonably well.

And I'm not even going to mention him blitzing England to death in the 2007 Ashes.

I'll agree his 2010-11 series was dreadful.
Whippy said:
2005
Two relative failures at Lords.
Registered a zero in the run chase at Edgbaston - the game and series then swung England's way.
Part of a top order collapse that nearly led to Australia following on at Old Trafford.
Completely tanked at Trent Bridge with the follow-on and the run-out that handed England the Ashes on a plate.

2009
Two more failures at Lords in a heavy defeat.
Two relative failures at Edgbaston.
A first innings flop and another second innings run-out at the Oval, as Australia relinquished the Ashes again.
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You cherry picked his failures, and I gave you several of his good performances in those 2 series of 2005 and 2009. All batsmen get out for less than 30 in the majority of their innings, but Ponting had two scores of 150+, as well as several fifties over those 10 matches to average about 44-45 in that period. He didn't set the world on fire, but every one has a few somewhat weaker series. It wasn't terrible batting, either.

If anything, what your post does illustrate, is how the rest of the Australian batting would crumble if Ponting had a bad day, not that Ponting himself didn't contribute in 2005 and 2009.

Whippy said:
The only times he has delivered more than the bare minimum against England as captaining batsman is the 156 - which IS one to tell your grandkids about -
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You didn't even mention his 150 at Cardiff 2009, which should have won Australia the match? That's selective memory, sir. As for the 2007 Ashes, a batsman can only perform with the opposition he's given. Pieterson scored his 200 recently against a 3 man attack, where 2 of the 3 were completely lost. Doesn't change the fact that he batted brilliantly. Likewise, Ponting averaged 82 in the 2007 Ashes against an attack with Harmison, Flintoff and anderson. A lot of England's management troubles came out becqause Ponting and Australia didn't let them settle.

And what about all his performances against the likes of Steyn and Pollock in south Africa? It's not like that's an easy tour or opposition.
 
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Some good posts by Whippy and SMR.

It indeed goes to show how Australia's batting fortunes were so dependent upon Ponting when Hayden and Gilchrist were no longer there, or were on the decline.
 
So it's not relevant that Ponting has flopped in pretty much every critical Ashes defeat that Australia have suffered in the last six years? I don't agree that I was cherry picking either - he's played 19 tests against England as captain and had just as many failures as successes, if not more failures.
 
From another perspective:

Imagine yourself as a test match bowler. Whom would you prefer bowling to? Punter or Dravid?
 
Whippy said:
So it's not relevant that Ponting has flopped in pretty much every critical Ashes defeat that Australia have suffered in the last six years? I don't agree that I was cherry picking either - he's played 19 tests against England as captain and had just as many failures as successes, if not more failures.
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He averaged 82 in the 2007 Ashes also? He has 4 hundreds in those 19 matches, a ratio of 1 out of 4.75, which is historically what most good batsmen manage over their career. That is the same as Dravid's hundreds/match ratio over his entire career, for example.

And yes, it is indeed relevant, and a fair observation by you that Ponting failed in most of Australia' major Ashes defeats in 2005/2009.


But food for thought here, might it also not indicate that The Australian batting of the late 2000s was over dependent on him, and would crumble if he got out? Rather like Tendulkar circa 1990s. And that's why England has been Australia's bogey bear? Ponting did flop in the defeats, but he also contributed in most of the matches Australia drew, won or almost won, such as 150 in Cardiff 2009, 78 at Headingley 2009 and the 156 in the 2005 Ashes drawn test.

Ponting was 2nd in the Australian batting averages in 2005. 3rd in 2009 and their highest overall aggregate run scorer over those 10 matches. He also has both the highest scores for Australia over that 10 match period. If he flopped, as you say, in 2005/2009(and even I'll admit he didn't do awesome), then how would you describe the other batsmen?

If each batsman in that Australian top 7 had averaged 44-45 over those 10 matches in 2005 and 2009, and scored 2 match-defining innings of 150+, I daresay they would have won both series and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Cricket is a team game, and I'd argue Ponting did his fair share in those 10 matches. (I'm not even going to dispute that he was terrible in 2010/11, and clearly over the hill. )



That said, you are right that Ponting has his lowest average against all test countries against England, of 44, which isn't a great batsman's average. Your bowlers haven't let him dominate the way he has other attacks of SA, WI and Pak. So fair bunkum, English fans have earned the right to question his credentials of greatness against quality bowling. I don't have anything further to contribute, I think, so I'll concede and withdraw gracefully. you can have the last word if you wish, although I think you've already conveyed your points quite effectively.


P.S: I had fun arguing with you, Whippy :).
 
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