Russia invades Ukraine

[cpleigh]

So dead people can lift their hands and get up? That’s what you can see.

Absolutely nobody in that video lifts their hands or gets up.

 

[bones]

Absolutely nobody in that video lifts their hands or gets up.

I have seen zoomed in and real time versions I am 90% sure that it is a guy moving his arm. The camera quality is terrible so hence why I can’t be 100%

 

[cpleigh]

It's a raindrop on the camera.

 

[90MPH]

Jesus christ. Its not fake.

At this point they will say the invasion is fake.

Of course these crimes are not fake, there are Russian propagandists on twitter denying every single war crime because that’s their job.

The videos don’t lie - I can post tons of it here but it’s so gruesome I don’t want people scarred by the images but they are all there to see on twitter.

 

[Jadz]

At this point they will say the invasion is fake.

Of course these crimes are not fake, there are Russian propagandists on twitter denying every single war crime because that’s their job.

The videos don’t lie - I can post tons of it here but it’s so gruesome I don’t want people scarred by the images but they are all there to see on twitter.

Hollywood films realistically portray dead and mutilated bodies in so-called 'action movies' - don't be too quick to dismiss suggestions of staged massacres, because they were effective in garnering support for virtually every 'war' the US has engaged in, from Iraq and onwards.

Russia did not 'invade' Ukraine - that is US/NATO/Western anti-Russia/Putin propaganda - its military operations are confined to the Donbass, 'denazifying and demilitarizing' the region, which has been bombarded for 8 years, 14000+ dead, hundreds of thousands maimed and displaced, since the 2014 US-engineered coup.

Instead of believing - without question - what you see, hear and are told, engage in some independent research and study yourself. The truth is out there, if any truth-seekers would like to know.

'Clearly, the western analysts and media largely lost the plot from Day 1 by branding the Russian special operation a “failure.” They erred basically in prejudging it to be a “Russian invasion”, whereas, Moscow was very precise in giving the rubric of “special operation” to its offensive.

An invasion demands quantifiable, visible results, whereas special operation has a dynamic of its own where the outcome becomes an amalgam of the Donbass region’s restoration to its original boundaries, the security and welfare of the Russian population, the systematic elimination of the neo-Nazi forces who were on rampage in that part of Ukraine through the past 8-year period with the support of the state and encouragement from the western intelligence and complicity of the authorities in Kiev — and all the while, not taking the eye off the the wearing down of Ukraine’s military assets and fighting capabilities as a whole.

What emerges today is that there is a better understanding of the “special operation” — and it goes all the way to the NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg and the US President Joe Biden. The Russian operation’s focus (as of now at least) is almost entirely on the eastern Donbass region where in Luhansk, over 93% of the territory has been “liberated”, while in Donetsk close to 60% of the territory is under control of Russian forces and the residual resistance in Mariupol port city is expected to be mopped up within the week.”

https://www.indianpunchline.com/don...82kWBMq1CUS2yS1LaknQuTy_uUEiHV683_F1gjpPrXfxU

 

[bones]

At this point they will say the invasion is fake.

Of course these crimes are not fake, there are Russian propagandists on twitter denying every single war crime because that’s their job.

The videos don’t lie - I can post tons of it here but it’s so gruesome I don’t want people scarred by the images but they are all there to see on twitter.

The Russians left Bucha and the day after they left the mayor of the city confirmed it. There was not one mention of these killings. Why? Why would the mayor say the Russians have left but avoid describing the killings when the situation calls for it. Doesn’t add up.

 

[Technics 1210]

Russia has just pegged the Rubel to Gold, bringing back the Gold standard. It also means Russia will now accept Gold as payment for Oil.

The death of the Petrodollar has commenced.

 

[MenInG]

Ukrainian MP warns of more 'atrocities' if West fails to act

A Ukrainian MP has warned that the scenes from Bucha will be replicated across Ukraine if the West fails to act to stop Russian President Vladimir Putin.

"Seeing that and knowing what's happening there, and losing quite many people I already knew in this war, it’s devastating and something that you cannot adjust to, you cannot accept, but at the same time every day it's happened," Yelyzaveta Yasko said, referring to images of dead civilians on the street.

"I have hope every day that tomorrow will be different, but unfortunately, there are more and more victims coming.

"And if we don't act very decisively in the world, to end this war, to show more strength, to give more military assistance to Ukraine, I will continue seeing this as many as other people in Ukraine, these atrocities and these victims, and it's very painful and it's unbelievable that something like this happens in the 21st century, with so many war crimes.

"We are also knowing that in Mariupol, there could be other places that could be even worse, because there are many people there and there is no access to that city right now - it's surrounded and airstrikes are there all the time."

She said her apartment was not far from Bucha and has been completely destroyed.

She does not know what happened to some of her neighbours who had been hiding in the basement.

"You always wait for good news, but you also are ready to hear some very, very bad news because many people unfortunately were killed," she said.

 

[silentkiller187]

Russian soldiers have been accused of carrying out "genocide" in the Ukrainian town of Bucha amid harrowing evidence of mass graves, torture and bodies lying in the streets as Kremlin forces pull back from Kyiv.

Ukraine officials say some victims were shot in the head with their hands tied behind their back and there has been international outrage and allegations of war crimes levelled at the Kremlin.

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy called Russian soldiers "killers, executioners, rapists, marauders" while Moscow categorically denied killing civilians in Bucha.

Once a popular commuter town located around 16 miles outside the capital, Bucha was ravaged by heavy fighting before being liberated by Ukrainian forces over the weekend.

There has been international outcry over the scenes of death and destruction revealed over the weekend as Ukrainian forces have pushed further outwards from Kyiv and liberated surrounding towns.

Images emerged on Sunday of Ukrainian civilians lying on the streets of Bucha, with witnesses saying the victims were killed by Russian forces without any apparent provocation - allegations Moscow has denied.

Bucha's mayor, Anatoliy Fedoruk, said more than 300 residents had been killed, while Ukrainian prosecutors said they have found 410 bodies in towns near the capital.

Some of the victims had their hands tied and were shot in the back of the head, Ukrainian authorities said.

One resident of Bucha said Russian troops went from building to building and took people out of the basements where they were hiding.

He said soldiers checked their phones for evidence of anti-Russian activity and took them away or shot them.President Zelenskyy accused Moscow forces of carrying out "a genocide", saying that a "concentrated evil has visited our land".

He said: "The killers, executioners, rapists, marauders who call themselves an army - and who deserve only death after what they've done."

Russia's Defence Ministry rejected the accusations of atrocities against civilians in Bucha and other suburbs of Kyiv.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov also rejected the allegations, describing the scenes outside Kyiv as a "stage-managed anti-Russian provocation."

Moscow will push for a meeting of the UN's Security Council to discuss what it called "Ukrainian provocations" in Bucha.

Allegations of war crimes come as Russian forces are continuing to "consolidate and reorganise" their efforts as they refocus their offensive on the Donbas region in Ukraine's east, where they are being joined by Wagner mercenaries, according to the UK's Ministry of Defence.

Meanwhile UK Foreign Secretary Liz Truss will visit Poland on Monday to call for tougher sanctions on Russia as Western countries work together to ramp up economic pressure on the Kremlin.

In a message on Twitter, Prime Minister Boris Johnson said: "All the tanks and guns in Vladimir Putin's arsenal will never break the spirit of Ukraine's people or conquer their homeland."

"Britain will never waver from supporting our friends", he added.

It comes as the UK leader seeks to galvanise a tougher response from Western allies, including NATO members, against Russia.

Meanwhile, the European Council's President Charles Michel said the European Union is preparing further sanctions following the actions of Russian forces in Bucha.

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...ncentrated-evil-has-visited-our-land-12582123

 

[90MPH]

Watch this latest report with the link provided.

I challenge anyone watching this news report and say this is fake is any way. That this mothers tears for her dead son is fake. That these graves are fake in way - it’s a frankly a disgusting insinuation.

These are horrendous war crimes and anyone saying otherwise should re-examine what they are being fed.

https://youtu.be/sEjt7eL6tZk

 

[bones]

Watch this latest report with the link provided.

I challenge anyone watching this news report and say this is fake is any way. That this mothers tears for her dead son is fake. That these graves are fake in way - it’s a frankly a disgusting insinuation.

These are horrendous war crimes and anyone saying otherwise should re-examine what they are being fed.

https://youtu.be/sEjt7eL6tZk

War is horrifying and the losses suffered by civilians are deeply harrowing.

But to deny the previous post I made where there is evidence that the Russians were not responsible for the massacre of Bucha you have brought up a video with a clip of a very distraught mother who lost her son due to collateral damage.

This conflict could easily have been avoided - so easily. Sadly the puppet regime in Ukraine carried on in a lost cause.

 

[JaDed]

So don’t trust Reuters but should trust Russian media.

Any posters countering western media hopefully never posts western media reports to make a point anymore.

 

[bones]

So don’t trust Reuters but should trust Russian media.

Any posters countering western media hopefully never posts western media reports to make a point anymore.

The point isn’t where the news is coming from so much as whether it has been validated or not.

 

[captain.hansolo]

Watch this latest report with the link provided.

I challenge anyone watching this news report and say this is fake is any way. That this mothers tears for her dead son is fake. That these graves are fake in way - it’s a frankly a disgusting insinuation.

These are horrendous war crimes and anyone saying otherwise should re-examine what they are being fed.

https://youtu.be/sEjt7eL6tZk

Satellite imagery directly contradicts the Russian claim that the massacre is Bucha occurred after Russian retreat from the suburb.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/04/world/europe/bucha-ukraine-bodies.html

Might be behind a paywall, if someone needs the text I can copy and paste it here, but NYTimes is making all their Ukraine reporting available without a subscription.

And I think we can agree that this is more credible a source than that ‘indianpunchline’ someone else posted nonsense from earlier.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The Russian ambasaador to the UN was mentioning how the footage was staged. He started to name bloggers that have been verified as liars...sadly before we could hear the full story the BBC cut him off to protect us against Russian propaganda.

 

[captain.hansolo]

The Russian ambasaador to the UN was mentioning how the footage was staged. He started to name bloggers that have been verified as liars...sadly before we could hear the full story the BBC cut him off to protect us against Russian propaganda.

I see a lot of people on here suspending rationality and swallowing propaganda and misinformation from a country with a track record of misinformation.

But let’s see that aside. I want to know what do you think the outcome will be here?

Do you believe Russia will control most or parts of Ukraine and it will be business as usual? Do you believe that this is a precursor to a reemergence of a Russian state that rivals the Soviet Union at its zenith? Will a Russian and Chinese alliance set their targets on Taiwan next and possible United States thereafter?

Please do explain.

 

[Technics 1210]

Biden wants Putin to be tried for war crimes. )

Western sanctions have failed, the world is snubbing Biden and Western leaders, the Petrodollar is in decline, West is forced not only to use its oil reserves but to extend olive branches to communists like Venezuela for oil )

The best part is only a few days ago Biden referred to his former VP as Michelle Obama!

 

[Maher96]

If there is a place offering relative safety in Ukraine it lies hundreds of kilometres to the west and the people of eastern Ukraine are now doing their best to reach it.

However, the highways are congested and military checkpoints are overwhelmed.

We clocked queues of three kilometres or more on the way into the city of Kramatorsk, in the embattled region of Donetsk.

At the main train station, we found a long line of hopeful passengers stretching out the door. On the other side facing the tracks, a small number of hard-working volunteers tried to bring order to the chaos.

But as the Russians move east, the people of this city are getting out.

"Why do you feel you have to leave?" I asked one woman.

"I am afraid for my children and my grandchildren, and me (too)," she replied.
The governor of Donetsk has told residents to evacuate.

He worries that they will hinder the movement and actions of Ukrainian troops - but it isn't easy to relocate your life.

We spoke to Kramatorsk resident Tetiana Nudko, who was about to board a train with a dog called Rocky.

"Do you know where you are going?"
"No, no I don't know, we're going somewhere, we're just hoping for better.

We hope to come back but we'll wait it out and try and stay alive. It's terrifying."

A moment of relief arrived in the form of a man standing on a chair in the crowded booking hall.

His name was Svyatoslav Vakarchuk and he offered a few words of encouragement to this anxious-looking congregation.

Then, a woman asked him if he would sing. "When the day comes," she said.

"The war will be over."

He nodded, and Ukraine's most popular entertainer began.

When the day comes,
The war will be over,
I have lost myself there,
Seen all the way to the bottom.
Hold me, hold me,
So gentle and not let me go…

Afterwards, I had a quick word with Mr Vakarchuk as the passengers and the soldiers cued up for pictures.

"Why did you come?" I asked.

"Because I want them to (know) that they are not alone so the whole country stands together with them. These people here are going to western Ukraine and that is the city that I'm from.

My mum is there, my daughter is volunteering there, all my friends are waiting for these people and they will be happy (to be) hosting them."

He turned toward the soldiers and hugged them and told them they were "heroes".
The Ukrainian military will be tested in the days and weeks ahead.

The Russians have set sights on eastern Ukraine and after a series of humiliating failures, President Putin will expect results.
The people of this region know what's coming.

Ukrainian forces fought Russian-backed separatists here in 2014 and in recent days, they have seen what's happened to residents in the communities which surround Kyiv.

Bodies of local residents with their hands bound behind their backs have left a powerful impression.

For most here in Kramatorsk, the journey west is an act of necessity, it is not an act of choice.

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...getting-out-but-its-not-an-easy-task-12582489

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I see a lot of people on here suspending rationality and swallowing propaganda and misinformation from a country with a track record of misinformation.

But let’s see that aside. I want to know what do you think the outcome will be here?

Do you believe Russia will control most or parts of Ukraine and it will be business as usual? Do you believe that this is a precursor to a reemergence of a Russian state that rivals the Soviet Union at its zenith? Will a Russian and Chinese alliance set their targets on Taiwan next and possible United States thereafter?

Please do explain.

I think Russia has badly fumbled here but also that NATO has been badly exposed.

Sadly the innocent Ukrainian people have paid the price for this proxy war between Russia and NATO.

The way that NATO has pumped up the Ukrainians only to do nothing but seize Chelsea football club is despicable.

The way western media is deliberately spreading misinformation is also despicable

Our governments shouldn't control what we can hear when it comes to "news".

Many of us watched the news during the Iraq war and are well versed on the effects that swallowing propaganda and misinformation has.

I don't know what will happen and what Russias wider aims are. However, in order to minimise human casulties NATO must stop sitting on the fence, either meaningfully support Zelensky OR cut him loose and tell him to make peace with Putin and remain neutral.

Any other options are just cheerleading for more deaths and devastation on an innocent public.

 

[bones]

I see a lot of people on here suspending rationality and swallowing propaganda and misinformation from a country with a track record of misinformation.

But let’s see that aside. I want to know what do you think the outcome will be here?

Do you believe Russia will control most or parts of Ukraine and it will be business as usual? Do you believe that this is a precursor to a reemergence of a Russian state that rivals the Soviet Union at its zenith? Will a Russian and Chinese alliance set their targets on Taiwan next and possible United States thereafter?

Please do explain.

If I were a gambling man I would put a fair amount on China going for and successfully taking Taiwan. They will finish the job off much quicker than the Russians in Ukraine because of multiple reasons. The Chinese have made military moves in some of the southern Chinese islands to deal with any threat from America. Apparently the Chinese have placed the missiles and anti missile equipment in preparation.

They have seen the futile effects of the sanctions on Russia, China are much bigger economy and so they have almost nothing to fear. I mean the last 6 weeks in particular have a runaway train doomed to disaster from the Americans and collective west. Every decision they have made has truly terrible.

 

[bones]

Biden wants Putin to be tried for war crimes. )

Western sanctions have failed, the world is snubbing Biden and Western leaders, the Petrodollar is in decline, West is forced not only to use its oil reserves but to extend olive branches to communists like Venezuela for oil )

The best part is only a few days ago Biden referred to his former VP as Michelle Obama!

The sanctions haven’t just failed but they have spectacularly backfired. Right now the Germans are the ones scrambling to find a way out. The Russians are doing ok in comparison. Have you heard about this massive company in Germany having to lay off 40,000 workers because of energy shortages? How exactly is the west going to pull out of this? Do they continue to follow their masters over in Washington or do they turnaround acknowledge the mess they are in and roll back the sanctions. The problem is that Russia has realised it can’t trust the west so they may not want to trade to BBC the same level as before.

Absolute incompetence from the collective west.

 

[MenInG]

Bucha is 'cynical Ukrainian propaganda', former Russian leader says

Earlier, we brought you comments from the Russian parliament, where the speaker said what happened in Bucha was "staged" for a Western audience.

Now, Dmitry Medvedev, Russia's former president, has said the scenes there are "fake", calling it "cynical Ukrainian propaganda".

Sky News has been on the ground in Bucha, where it has seen evidence of torture and mass graves.

Satellite images suggest the bodies have been there for weeks - discrediting claims they were planted after the Russian withdrawal.

 

[bones]

This is the woke (stupid) world we live in. I wonder what Degas would have made of it.

https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...es-degas-russian-dancers-as-ukrainian-dancers

 

[mazkhan]

If I were a gambling man I would put a fair amount on China going for and successfully taking Taiwan. They will finish the job off much quicker than the Russians in Ukraine because of multiple reasons. The Chinese have made military moves in some of the southern Chinese islands to deal with any threat from America. Apparently the Chinese have placed the missiles and anti missile equipment in preparation.

They have seen the futile effects of the sanctions on Russia, China are much bigger economy and so they have almost nothing to fear. I mean the last 6 weeks in particular have a runaway train doomed to disaster from the Americans and collective west. Every decision they have made has truly terrible.

Only thing is Chinese weaponry is more junk and rubbish than russian weaponry

Chinese equipment cannot compete with western aircraft and systems its simple as that.

Proof is general bajwa who was recently moaning because usa won't sell military equipment to pakistan we have to move closer to China and buy their equipment , they are obviously not satisfied, same way indians have been burnt by russian junk not working properly and pakistan with huge problems with ukranian junk engines for our tanks which have all sorts of oil problems and need special oil which can only be purchased from kharkiv but the whole city is now rubble. That's why pakistan was forced to buy the junk vt4 .

We can't get turkish tanks due to german engines systems . Same way turkish helicopters due to superior usa engines.

 

[bones]

Only thing is Chinese weaponry is more junk and rubbish than russian weaponry

Chinese equipment cannot compete with western aircraft and systems its simple as that.

Proof is general bajwa who was recently moaning because usa won't sell military equipment to pakistan we have to move closer to China and buy their equipment , they are obviously not satisfied, same way indians have been burnt by russian junk not working properly and pakistan with huge problems with ukranian junk engines for our tanks which have all sorts of oil problems and need special oil which can only be purchased from kharkiv but the whole city is now rubble. That's why pakistan was forced to buy the junk vt4 .

We can't get turkish tanks due to german engines systems . Same way turkish helicopters due to superior usa engines.

Whilst you make plenty of valid points, there's a couple of things that heavily weight in China's favour. Firstly they would be close to their infrastrcture, closer to ports, airports, fuel supplies etc. The USA are much further away and it would take them almost a year to transfer enough units to mount an assault. There is no way the Americans get involved in a conflict with China, it would be suicide just because of geography. There really is nothing anyone can do to stop China from taking Taiwan, not even the collective west. Sanctions are useless and it will backfire even more than they did with Russia. So to avoid huge civilian casualties it might be in Taiwan's interest to come to some neogitation. Agree to an installed puppet regime so at least you keep your sovereignty.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Mayor of Bucha on 31st says all is well , Russians have left . No mention of any massacre . Nazis arrive a day later , this video later appears .

Russia has shown their evidence but you won’t find it on CNN or BBC .

Very similar to lies of Assad using chemical weapons which now proven to be blatant lie .

When Nato aren’t winning these nonsense lies are bought to the fore.

Russia is now wiping the Nazi's from this earth . It won’t take long to secure the eastern region & send them to hell .

 

[cpleigh]

the Russians have provided absolutely no evidence at all

 

[KingKhanWC]

the Russians have provided absolutely no evidence at all

You seem fixated on this issue . Read what I wrote . Was the Ukrainian mayor lying at the end of march ?

Care to comment on the war crimes committed by Ukrainians ? Multiple legit videos showing them torturing & shooting dead POWs.

14,000 estimated were murdered in the east before Russian troops set foot . It’s clear you didn’t know where Ukraine was on the map then . Now after watching bbc or cnn you’re an expert ?

 

[cpleigh]

i'm not rejecting that Ukranian soldiers would have done terrible things, but how and why does that make it ok for Russians to kill civilians?

Now.. again im no expert on this... but i'd imagine that if you had been the mayor of a city that Russia has occupied, and quite brutally... you probably are in hiding, and even when you think the Russians may have left you probably wouldn't be going for a wander around the city whilst unprotected.

But anyway... the satellite images from the private sector prove those bodies were there in March

 

[Jadz]

'As things stand in Ukraine, I believe there is a far greater likelihood that Zelensky will be arrested and charged as a war criminal than Putin. The direct evidence of Ukrainian war crimes, complete with proof of intent, is overwhelming. And yet the western media ignores it.'

https://twitter.com/RealScottRitter/status/1511308091417153536

 

[Jadz]

'There are truly shocking and gruesome videos on telegram of Ukrainian military (filmed by themselves) torturing, then murdering bound Russian POW's. It's entirely possible the same people are killing civilians after accusing them of being Russian collaborators/saboteurs'


https://twitter.com/NealSlideways/status/1511310940767232007

 

[Maher96]

Some 1,200 war crimes have already been registered in the Kyiv region following Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the capital's police chief has said.

Andriy Nebitov did not specify what each of the war crimes were nor how many people they involved.

However, he told Sky News in an interview on Tuesday that most of the deaths recorded so far had been caused by Russian shelling and rocket fire.

A pile of bodies, burnt beyond recognition, lay cordoned off, behind police tape.
Yellow plaques, numbered one to six, were all that distinguished the remains of one life from another.

Investigators are still trying to work out what happened to the victims. Their identities - like so many unclaimed corpses in the town - are yet to be confirmed.

Initial inquiries appear to indicate that they had been shot dead and set alight by Russian soldiers.

The remains look to include women and a possible teenage child.

Mr Nebitov said investigators would first examine the bodies. Next, they would be put into black bags and taken to a morgue.

"There they are examined by forensic medical experts," he said.

"They give us an opinion on the cause of death. This is attached to the criminal case file, after which the security service will investigate."

Asked whether Ukraine would be able to launch an international investigation into suspected Russian war crimes, the police chief said he hoped so.

"Then everything will depend on the international court. Based on the practice of international war crimes investigations of the 20th century, we now have an opportunity to record the evidence of the criminal activities of the Russian army in higher quality and in a more comprehensive way," he said.

In Bucha alone, the death toll is still growing as more bodies are found. The police chief predicted the final number would be "very many".

Russian forces surged into this town in the initial days of the war, seizing control until they pulled back, under fire from Ukrainian soldiers, late last week.

"There is no total number [of bodies] yet," the police chief said.

"We are working every day. I have to say that there are a lot of people. Especially in the wooded area. On the streets. And we haven't looked at houses and flats yet."

He said forensic experts had so far examined 200 bodies mainly from the Bucha region and the next-door town of Irpin.

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...as-invasion-so-far-police-chief-says-12583136

 

[90MPH]

I see a lot of people on here suspending rationality and swallowing propaganda and misinformation from a country with a track record of misinformation.

But let’s see that aside. I want to know what do you think the outcome will be here?

Do you believe Russia will control most or parts of Ukraine and it will be business as usual? Do you believe that this is a precursor to a reemergence of a Russian state that rivals the Soviet Union at its zenith? Will a Russian and Chinese alliance set their targets on Taiwan next and possible United States thereafter?

Please do explain.

A lot of people are just seeing this through a geo political lens. Now sometimes that’s makes sense because every country has their own geo political interests so when there isn’t a war going on you make opinions through those lenses. Ok fair enough.

However on this occasion we are talking about a millitary superpower country invading another country.
All it required was to take a step back and assess who was wrong in initiating this conflict. If you are not very informed on this topic then there is plenty of information available online that one can learn about the region without digging for a narrative that favours one party or the other.

But instead people are looking for ridiculous Alex Jones conspiracy theories, that war crimes being committed are all fake.

And instead of blaming Putin, the guy who started the invasion of Ukraine and illegal war, a lot people in this thread are insanely blaming Zelensky. They want him to surrender while his country gets invaded and bombed to smithereens without saying a word on the war criminal Putin.

It’s fine to criticise some western media particularly the American media that played a big role cheering for the Bush government leading upto the Iraq war. And they have often been cheerleaders for many other American adventures in the Middle East.
However those that just continuously crap on all western media (like the BBC) while not saying a word about the insane Russian propaganda are really showing their own biases in this conflict.
They never ever give us the alternatives on what to watch when it comes good informative objective news.

 

[KingKhanWC]

i'm not rejecting that Ukranian soldiers would have done terrible things, but how and why does that make it ok for Russians to kill civilians?

Now.. again im no expert on this... but i'd imagine that if you had been the mayor of a city that Russia has occupied, and quite brutally... you probably are in hiding, and even when you think the Russians may have left you probably wouldn't be going for a wander around the city whilst unprotected.

But anyway... the satellite images from the private sector prove those bodies were there in March

On march 31st the mayor celebrates, claiming Ukrainian forces ‘liberated’ the town . A bit of research would also tell you western media then reported the Azov arrives the day after. Two days later this video appears from the Ukrainians making this claim . Russia has achieved its aims by crippling all military installations & now is preparing to once & for all secure the Easter region. It makes no sense for them to massacre civilians when their whole plan was to avoid civilian casualties. By this time in the Iraq war hundreds of thousands were killed.

Images are no different from the Syrian chemical attack lie . I wonder what your thoughts are of it ? Hint it’s been proven to be a lie after investigation. By coincidence the same American newspaper showed the satellite images .

You may also want to advise the Pentagon who say they can’t verify it , only have the word of the Ukrainians.

Ok if Russia is responsible, it’s disgusting but what would you like to be done ? Take Putin to The Hague ? You do know the US are not a signatory to The Hague ? In face their stance is to invade The Hague if anyone of their family officials were to be put on trial .

Don’t get emotionally attached , they want you to be happy to suffer economically & maybe even happy to accept a larger war where we may find out if Russia is capable of such aggression or are our rulers want death & suffering for everyone.

 

[KingKhanWC]

A lot of people are just seeing this through a geo political lens. Now sometimes that’s makes sense because every country has their own geo political interests so when there isn’t a war going on you make opinions through those lenses. Ok fair enough.

However on this occasion we are talking about a millitary superpower country invading another country.
All it required was to take a step back and assess who was wrong in initiating this conflict. If you are not very informed on this topic then there is plenty of information available online that one can learn about the region without digging for a narrative that favours one party or the other.

But instead people are looking for ridiculous Alex Jones conspiracy theories, that war crimes being committed are all fake.

And instead of blaming Putin, the guy who started the invasion of Ukraine and illegal war, a lot people in this thread are insanely blaming Zelensky. They want him to surrender while his country gets invaded and bombed to smithereens without saying a word on the war criminal Putin.

It’s fine to criticise some western media particularly the American media that played a big role cheering for the Bush government leading upto the Iraq war. And they have often been cheerleaders for many other American adventures in the Middle East.
However those that just continuously crap on all western media (like the BBC) while not saying a word about the insane Russian propaganda are really showing their own biases in this conflict.
They never ever give us the alternatives on what to watch when it comes good informative objective news.

If it helps to talk I’m all for it .

But to have a debate you need to present rational , evidence based arguments.

 

[James]

<b>Re: </b>war crimes being committed by Ukraine and Russia. Crimes against humanity, attempts at genocide, etc.

From what I’ve seen, all of the belligerents in any conflict tend to commit war crimes of some kind, but the only people who actually go on trial for it and get held to account are the ones who end up on the losing side.

All such crimes are wrong, but in the court of world opinion it is only the “losers” who get punished for theirs. It depends on who is writing history and controlling the narrative.

Thinking about the Second World War, there is well documented evidence and it is not even denied by the Allies themselves that they likely committed war crimes: e.g. the mass explosive and incendiary airstrike by Britain and America on the city of Dresden which resulted in 25,000 civilians being bombed, maimed and burned to death in a literal firestorm; and also the extended mass rape, murder and pillage that was committed by the Red Army when Russia invaded Germany via Eastern Europe and Poland, again a ruthless destructive warpath of “scorched earth” which mainly targeted civilians.

The climatic use of nuclear weapons in Japan by the Allies itself continues to divide opinion — there is a very credible argument to say that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes also.

There is no doubt that Nazi Germany also committed horrific war crimes, particularly in the extermination camps and against victims of the Holocaust; and the Japanese Empire did the same against Chinese civilians in Nanking, also having an infamous record of treating POWs inhumanely and appallingly.

Numerous war criminals from the Axis of Germany, Japan, etc were held to account for their atrocious actions and we saw the kangaroo courts of the Nuremberg Trials for example. There were many executions, jail sentences, and other sanctions handed out to legitimately bad people. But where were the Nuremberg Trials for the Allied war crimes?

What “matters” is not simply the factual events that happened. It is mainly who won. Who survives to tell the tale, and who has the superior position of power and influence to do so. From their own perspective.

History is whitewashed by the victors.

And with the Russia and Ukraine situation, it will be the same again.

 

[KingKhanWC]

<b>Re: </b>war crimes being committed by Ukraine and Russia. Crimes against humanity, attempts at genocide, etc.

From what I’ve seen, all of the belligerents in any conflict tend to commit war crimes of some kind, but the only people who actually go on trial for it and get held to account are the ones who end up on the losing side.

All such crimes are wrong, but in the court of world opinion it is only the “losers” who get punished for theirs. It depends on who is writing history and controlling the narrative.

Thinking about the Second World War, there is well documented evidence and it is not even denied by the Allies themselves that they likely committed war crimes: e.g. the mass explosive and incendiary airstrike by Britain and America on the city of Dresden which resulted in 25,000 civilians being bombed, maimed and burned to death in a literal firestorm; and also the extended mass rape, murder and pillage that was committed by the Red Army when Russia invaded Germany via Eastern Europe and Poland, again a ruthless destructive warpath of “scorched earth” which mainly targeted civilians.

The climatic use of nuclear weapons in Japan by the Allies itself continues to divide opinion — there is a very credible argument to say that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes also.

There is no doubt that Nazi Germany also committed horrific war crimes, particularly in the extermination camps and against victims of the Holocaust; and the Japanese Empire did the same against Chinese civilians in Nanking, also having an infamous record of treating POWs inhumanely and appallingly.

Numerous war criminals from the Axis of Germany, Japan, etc were held to account for their atrocious actions and we saw the kangaroo courts of the Nuremberg Trials for example. There were many executions, jail sentences, and other sanctions handed out to legitimately bad people. But where were the Nuremberg Trials for the Allied war crimes?

What “matters” is not simply the factual events that happened. It is mainly who won. Who survives to tell the tale, and who has the superior position of power and influence to do so. From their own perspective.

History is whitewashed by the victors.

And with the Russia and Ukraine situation, it will be the same again.

It makes a mockery of the term war crimes when the ones suspected of most war crimes are never put on trial let alone convicted.

What substitutes a war crime is also up for opinion. Interestingly Islam made clear what is unlawful in times of war , including chemical attacks , in those days poisoning wells etc to making it clear who are non-combatants, women , children & to attacking trees , nature etc

The seriousness of the allegations against Russia is the conflict is on going. The same was of Syria , the aim isn’t to care or stop civilians dying otherwise Nato would have made peace with Russia decades ago over Ukraine . The aim is to accuse to emotionally charge in order manufacture consent . To the point people in Europe are willing to see an economic collapse , go broke & even willing to contemplate living in a bunker . Such is the stupidity of people & powerful brainwashing just adds to it .

It seems like this is not only an attack on Russia but also an attack to bring the west to its knees .

Anyone with kids should be extremely concerned of their future as the world stands today .

 

[James]

What substitutes a war crime is also up for opinion. Interestingly Islam made clear what is unlawful in times of war , including chemical attacks , in those days poisoning wells etc to making it clear who are non-combatants, women , children & to attacking trees , nature etc

The seriousness of the allegations against Russia is the conflict is on going. The same was of Syria , the aim isn’t to care or stop civilians dying otherwise Nato would have made peace with Russia decades ago over Ukraine . The aim is to accuse to emotionally charge in order manufacture consent . To the point people in Europe are willing to see an economic collapse , go broke & even willing to contemplate living in a bunker . Such is the stupidity of people & powerful brainwashing just adds to it .

That is interesting about the Islamic definition. Personally I would agree with it.

War imo should take place between combatants of belligerent states/armies, it should not harm civilians, and it should be conducted “fairly” i.e. if your opponent surrenders then you don’t kill him, torture him or humiliate him — you take him in as a prisoner of war, treat him well, and either offer him in prisoner exchange or free him when the fighting has ended.

What you mention about the timing of the war crimes allegations at the moment is the key point I think. If evidence of war crimes surfaces after a conflict has concluded, then this can be investigated by the appropriate independent authorities in something approaching good faith.

But allegations being made during a peak period of the conflict at hand suggests that (whether or not the allegations have substance) it is being put forward primarily for propagandist purposes and to win hearts & minds in a holy war against the enemy.

In other words to justify those price rises and share crashes, to keep the blood flowing on the battlefield in pursuit of the cause, and at the same time keep those donations from home rolling in & open up more doors to the refugees and the displaced.

And we can see the effect on our television screens and on social media. It’s working.

It’s deliberately calculated and very clever and a lot of people probably don’t realise that it is happening.

 

[Yossarian]

That is interesting about the Islamic definition. Personally I would agree with it.

War imo should take place between combatants of belligerent states/armies, it should not harm civilians, and it should be conducted “fairly” i.e. if your opponent surrenders then you don’t kill him, torture him or humiliate him — you take him in as a prisoner of war, treat him well, and either offer him in prisoner exchange or free him when the fighting has ended.

What you mention about the timing of the war crimes allegations at the moment is the key point I think. If evidence of war crimes surfaces after a conflict has concluded, then this can be investigated by the appropriate independent authorities in something approaching good faith.

But allegations being made during a peak period of the conflict at hand suggests that (whether or not the allegations have substance) it is being put forward primarily for propagandist purposes and to win hearts & minds in a holy war against the enemy.

In other words to justify those price rises and share crashes, to keep the blood flowing on the battlefield in pursuit of the cause, and at the same time keep those donations from home rolling in & open up more doors to the refugees and the displaced.

And we can see the effect on our television screens and on social media. It’s working.

It’s deliberately calculated and very clever and a lot of people probably don’t realise that it is happening.

I agree.

Whilst I completely disagree with Russia invading Ukraine, I feel that, behind the scenes, prior to the war, the Ukrainian govt. was being encouraged by the likes of the USA (and UK) to not to agree to any peace deal between Ukraine and Russia. Nato was hell bent on getting Ukraine to become a Nato member, thereby allowing Nato troops and bases in Ukraine and closer to Russia.

I feel that even now, with all the military support being given to Ukraine, Nato (especially the likes of USA and UK) are more interested in keeping the war going whilst Russian economy is being weakened by sanctions, than in pushing for a peace deal, whilst the Ukrainian people keep on suffering.

 

[cpleigh]

what kind of peace deal are you talking about? What peace deal did russia offer? (if any). At the very best it would have been Crimea and the Donbass area transferred to Russia. How is that a peace deal? Would Pakistanis accept Kashmir and Karachi handing over to India just for peace? I very much doubt it.

Can we please stop with the 'NATO were desperate for Ukraine to join' Ukraine were repeadtly rejected and were told they had no immediate path to NATO membership.

 

[Firebat]

At least 320 people shot dead by Russian forces, says Bucha's mayor

The mayor of Bucha, Anatoliy Fedoruk, has been speaking to the BBC's Newshour programme about the allegations of war crimes by Russian forces in his town, which is back under Ukrainian control.

He hid in a building from Russian troops during their occupation and says he witnessed the killings.

"Currently we know there were 320 peaceful civilians shot dead by Russian occupiers and this figure is getting bigger."

Anatoliy says he saw the moment people were "brutally shot" by Russians as they tried to escape the town by car.

"There was a pregnant woman. Her husband was screaming, asking for them not to shoot her, but they just brutally shot her."

"So he had to bury her on the sideroad and instead of a cross [he] put the number plate of his car."

The mayor also described what he knew about images appearing to show bodies of dead civilians in the street, describing "people with their hands tied, their bodies put on each other [like] a pile of wood".

He says there were "five tortured young people, with their hands tied behind their backs, shot in the back of their heads".

Russia has denied that its forces carried out atrocities in Bucha.

BBC

 

[Firebat]

Latest updates:

- Ukraine's deputy PM urges residents of the eastern regions of Kharkiv, Luhansk and Donetsk to evacuate while they have the chance. "It has to be done now because later the people will be under fire and face the threat of death," says Iryna Vereshchuk.

- It comes as fears grow that Russian forces are gearing up for a large-scale offensive in the east of the country.

- Nato foreign ministers are meeting for two days of talks on how best to support Ukraine as the war continues.

- PM Boris Johnson has said the killing of civilians in the Ukrainian town of Bucha, and other events in the country, do not "look far short of genocide". His comments come as the UK, US and EU prepare to impose further sanctions on Russia, focused on oil and gas industries.

- Twenty-five women and girls have said they were raped by Russian forces in Bucha, a senior Ukrainian official tells the BBC.

BBC

 

[Yossarian]

If in doubt, check it out. Just google it. Plenty of mainstream, respectable, media outlets, such as the Guardian, have reported revelations regarding Zelensky, the Pandora Papers, and those backing Zelensky

 

[cpleigh]

Let's be clear, anybody who has been around Eastern Europe knows the far right and neo nazis exist. Russia included BTW. But let's not kid ourselves about Russias motives.

Russia hasn't moved on from WW2, and the term de nazification is an easy sell to a populace still terrified of them.

This is a regime change and land grab

 

[Maher96]

The US has imposed sanctions against Russian President Vladimir Putin's inner circle, including his daughters.

The list also includes the family of Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and major banks.
The measures follow new revelations of atrocities by Russian troops in Ukraine, including images of bodies of civilians scattered on the streets of Bucha, near the capital Kyiv.

Russia says, without evidence, the images are staged by Kyiv officials.

Even though satellite images have shown the civilians were killed when Russians were in control of Bucha, Mr Putin on Wednesday described the event as a "crude and cynical provocation by the Kyiv regime".

Referring to the Bucha murders, US President Joe Biden said on Wednesday: "There's nothing less happening than major war crimes."

"Responsible nations have to come together to hold these perpetrators accountable," Mr Biden added.
The US said that Mr Putin's daughters, Katerina Vladimirovna Tikhonova and Maria Vladimirovna Vorontsova, were being put under sanctions "for being the adult children of Putin, a person whose property and interests in property are blocked".

The announcement described Ms Tikhonova as "a tech executive whose work supports the GoR [Russian government] and defense industry".
Her sister, Ms Vorontsova, it went on, "leads state-funded programs that have received billions of dollars from the Kremlin toward genetics research and are personally overseen by Putin".

Asked why the US was targeting Mr Putin's daughters, a senior Biden administration official said the US thought they could be in control of some of their father's assets.

"We have reason to believe that Putin, and many of his cronies, and the oligarchs, hide their wealth, hide their assets, with family members that place their assets and their wealth in the US financial system, and also many other parts of the world," the official said.

"We believe that many of Putin's assets are hidden with family members, and that's why we're targeting them."
The US sanctions announced by the White House include:

economic measures to ban new investment in Russia

severe financial sanctions on Russia's

largest private bank, Alfa Bank, and its largest financial institution, Sberbank

sanctions on critical major state-owned enterprises

sanctions on Russian government officials and their family members

Meanwhile the UK has announced further sanctions against eight oligarchs and Russian banks, including the country's largest, Sberbank, and Credit Bank of Moscow.

The European Union is also debating cutting off Russian coal imports as concern over alleged war crimes increases.

Before the new raft of sanctions was announced in Washington, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said he could not "tolerate any indecisiveness".
Speaking to the Irish parliament on Wednesday, he said there was still a need to convince some in Europe who believe "war and war crimes are not as horrific as financial losses" to back tougher sanctions.

He added that "Russian oil cannot feed the Russian military machine", with Ukraine's foreign minister arguing on Twitter that an embargo on gas and oil was needed to truly impact Russia's ability to finance the war.

Josep Borrell, the EU's chief diplomat, separately acknowledged on Wednesday that the one billion euros ($1.09bn; £833m) Europe spent on Russian energy every day put into sharp perspective the billion euros given to Ukraine in military assistance since the start of the invasion.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61005388

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

View attachment 115583

If in doubt, check it out. Just google it. Plenty of mainstream, respectable, media outlets, such as the Guardian, have reported revelations regarding Zelensky, the Pandora Papers, and those backing Zelensky

The whole world knows who financed Nazis "back then"

and

The whole world knows who is financing Neo-Nazis now!

Hint: it is the same people who financed ISIS.

Evil lives on.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Let's be clear, anybody who has been around Eastern Europe knows the far right and neo nazis exist. Russia included BTW. But let's not kid ourselves about Russias motives.

Russia hasn't moved on from WW2, and the term de nazification is an easy sell to a populace still terrified of them.

This is a regime change and land grab

Ive read some poor posts but this has to up there.

Russia is Orthodox Christian, not a Communist Athiest nation. If you call this not moving on, there you have no idea of Russia as a nation, a people and culture.

Did you know Putin's mother used to hide and pray to God with him in Soviet era?

Did you know Kiev used to be part of Russia?

This is no land grab, this is self defence and liberation of Russian speaking people in the Eastern regions. I informed you earlier approx 14,000 were murdered by Nazis but you seem to ignore their lives?

Nazis are not the national guard of Russia. Putins family were murdered by Nazis in the past. He hates them as any sane decent intelligent person would.

But here we have people watching BBC & CNN supporting Nazis. Esp brown people, who would be slaughtered by the people they are supporting.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The whole world knows who financed Nazis "back then"

and

The whole world knows who is financing Neo-Nazis now!

Hint: it is the same people who financed ISIS.

Evil lives on.

 

[cpleigh]

Ive read some poor posts but this has to up there.

Russia is Orthodox Christian, not a Communist Athiest nation. If you call this not moving on, there you have no idea of Russia as a nation, a people and culture.

Did you know Putin's mother used to hide and pray to God with him in Soviet era?

Did you know Kiev used to be part of Russia?

This is no land grab, this is self defence and liberation of Russian speaking people in the Eastern regions. I informed you earlier approx 14,000 were murdered by Nazis but you seem to ignore their lives?

Nazis are not the national guard of Russia. Putins family were murdered by Nazis in the past. He hates them as any sane decent intelligent person would.

But here we have people watching BBC & CNN supporting Nazis. Esp brown people, who would be slaughtered by the people they are supporting.

Russia as a nation hasn't moved on from what the nazis did to their cities. They are still petrified of invasion etc, even when it's not going to happen.

I'm not ignoring any deaths. It's a stupid war, completely unnecessary. Self defence from what? Ukraine? Nobody is or will attack Russia.

Liberation... come off it. He's flattening Russian speaking cities.

It's a land grab. Pure and simple. All of Russias military computers etc are made in Eastern Ukraine.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

View attachment 115592

What a sad state of affairs.

Zelensky the Zionist controlled rat is wrong tho.

Ukraine's Nazi extremists have been killing Russians for years. They were already emulating their Zionist masters.

First week of war and all of Zionist Ukrainian assets were out of country.

And common Ukrainian is forced to fight and die besides Nazis in a war that only benefits Zionism.

Pure evil.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Russia as a nation hasn't moved on from what the nazis did to their cities. They are still petrified of invasion etc, even when it's not going to happen.

I'm not ignoring any deaths. It's a stupid war, completely unnecessary. Self defence from what? Ukraine? Nobody is or will attack Russia.

Liberation... come off it. He's flattening Russian speaking cities.

It's a land grab. Pure and simple. All of Russias military computers etc are made in Eastern Ukraine.

Sir jee, first of all you are absolutely correct. This is a land grab.

But at the same time, do not ignore how Nato (minus EU and plus the AUKUS) have been arming Ukraine and did a regime change to their puppet who warmongered and is warmongering like a boss. There were also talks (and probably plans) to put nukes in Ukraine.

Here is a 2014 news article:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...lk-U-S-mercenary-outfit-deployed-Donetsk.html

Blackwater, the Neo-Nazis, the Isis freedom-bringers etc. all serve the same master

Just FYI, these Blackwater terrorists used to kill entire Afghan/Iraqi families when USA was giving ©freedom and democracy™ to Iraq / Afghanistan.

And I know in the larger scale of things we all have been programmed (by Zionist media) to ignore Muslim murders by the white skinned terrorists but still...

 

[Yossarian]

Russia as a nation hasn't moved on from what the nazis did to their cities. They are still petrified of invasion etc, even when it's not going to happen.

I'm not ignoring any deaths. It's a stupid war, completely unnecessary. Self defence from what? Ukraine? Nobody is or will attack Russia.

Liberation... come off it. He's flattening Russian speaking cities.

It's a land grab. Pure and simple. All of Russias military computers etc are made in Eastern Ukraine.

So why are Nato (especially it's most powerful member) so keen on getting closer to Russia in terms of establishing military bases and troops? There are now Nato bases in many of the former Soviet Union countries (eg Estonia) as well as in the former Iron Curtain countries (eg Poland and Bulgaria).

As for not 'attacking Russia', think 'invasion of Iraq'.

When it comes to regime change, never rule anything out. (I'm referring to a couple of major powers who are quick to resort to regime change in countries that they feel is a threat to their interests, or simply don't tow the line when told to do so).

 

[MenInG]

Ukraine can "absolutely" win the war against Russia as Moscow continues to struggle to make key breakthroughs, the Pentagon has said.

Russian leader Vladimir Putin "has achieved zero of his strategic goals" and is "really only taking control of a small number of population centres", Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said.

It comes as US officials say at least 24,000 Russian troops have completed their withdrawal from around Kyiv, but fears remain that they are now refitting and resupplying in preparation for a future deployment in Ukraine.

"The threat of (a) ground invasion (of Kyiv) is clearly gone for the moment... but it's not clear what their longer-range goals are," a US defence official said on condition of anonymity.

"The troops leaving the area were withdrawing to Belarus and Russia to reconsolidate, but it was not clear how many would eventually be sent back to Ukraine," they added.

SKY

 

[cpleigh]

So why are Nato (especially it's most powerful member) so keen on getting closer to Russia in terms of establishing military bases and troops? There are now Nato bases in many of the former Soviet Union countries (eg Estonia) as well as in the former Iron Curtain countries (eg Poland and Bulgaria).

As for not 'attacking Russia', think 'invasion of Iraq'.

When it comes to regime change, never rule anything out. (I'm referring to a couple of major powers who are quick to resort to regime change in countries that they feel is a threat to their interests, or simply don't tow the line when told to do so).

who says they are? All those countries wanted to join NATO, and why wouldn't they? Look what happens to ex Soviet states that don't join.

Russia has now invaded / partly occupied about 5 in recent times.

Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, Azjerbijan, Belarus.

 

[bones]

who says they are? All those countries wanted to join NATO, and why wouldn't they? Look what happens to ex Soviet states that don't join.

Russia has now invaded / partly occupied about 5 in recent times.

Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, Azjerbijan, Belarus.

So countries want to join NATO to avoid an invasion from Russia. But once they are in NATO they are obliged or volunteer with invasions of other countries.

Join NATO - Stop Invasions Of Your Country - Join Invasions On Other Countries

 

[cpleigh]

When has NATO ever invaded a country? NATO members may have, but as an alliance it hasn't.

It led a peacekeeping force into Kosovan at the request of the UN

 

[Yossarian]

When has NATO ever invaded a country? NATO members may have, but as an alliance it hasn't.

It led a peacekeeping force into Kosovan at the request of the UN

Afghanistan?

NATO withdraws from Afghanistan: short-term and long-term consequences for the Western alliance

https://www.friendsofeurope.org/ins...g-term-consequences-for-the-western-alliance/

For Nato to 'withdraw' from Afghanistan, it has to invade it first.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">President Zelenski just abused the Greek Parliament's invitation by sharing its platform with members of the neoNazi Azov Battalion, thus undermining the Ukrainian people's heroic resistance to Putin's criminal invasion. We stand with Ukraine, not with the Azov neoNazi Battalion</p>— Yanis Varoufakis (@yanisvaroufakis) <a href="https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/1512001659131547652?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 7, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[cpleigh]

Afghanistan?

For Nato to 'withdraw' from Afghanistan, it has to invade it first.

Nato countries created the ISAF backed by the UN.

NATO didn't. In fact 59 countries were involved, including Russia, Iran and pakistan

 

[Yossarian]

Nato countries created the ISAF backed by the UN.

NATO didn't. In fact 59 countries were involved, including Russia, Iran and pakistan

Others may also have been involved. Point is that 'Nato' led the invasion. Look it up.

 

[cpleigh]

Of course they did. Article 5 was invoked as a member was attacked

 

[bones]

Why would they bring 2 neo nazis in front of the Greeks? Are they running the show?

 

[cpleigh]

Why would they bring 2 neo nazis in front of the Greeks? Are they running the show?

Mariupol is an acient Greek city and the AZOV fighters are the ones defending it.

He was trying to show the greeks that

 

[bones]

Mariupol is an acient Greek city and the AZOV fighters are the ones defending it.

He was trying to show the greeks that

Well that failed spectacularly then didn’t it. Ministers walked out and about half the population displayed disgust.

I think the nazis are running the show and he is just there because his speeches serve a purpose.

 

[cpleigh]

Well that failed spectacularly then didn’t it. Ministers walked out and about half the population displayed disgust.

I think the nazis are running the show and he is just there because his speeches serve a purpose.

It failed with an ex Greek mp, who isn't well liked because of his compliance in the Greek debt deal with germany

 

[cpleigh]

Well that failed spectacularly then didn’t it. Ministers walked out and about half the population displayed disgust.

I think the nazis are running the show and he is just there because his speeches serve a purpose.

Ha ha. I've just read up on the story. Ministers from one party left... AFTER they gave zelensky a standing ovation.

The soldier who spoke was of Greek descent and is part of the azov battalion, which was also disbanded years ago and brought into the regular army. So the azov neo nazi brigade doesn't even exist now.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Russia as a nation hasn't moved on from what the nazis did to their cities. They are still petrified of invasion etc, even when it's not going to happen.

I'm not ignoring any deaths. It's a stupid war, completely unnecessary. Self defence from what? Ukraine? Nobody is or will attack Russia.

Liberation... come off it. He's flattening Russian speaking cities.

It's a land grab. Pure and simple. All of Russias military computers etc are made in Eastern Ukraine.

Any sane nation would be petrified of Nazis esp if they are on its border , buthchering thousands of Russian speakers. This is liberating them. Or Would you like them to allow this to continue?

Russia is defending its security. have you not kept up with the background of this conflict?

No land grab, Crimeans voted to join Russia, the two regions self declared independency.

The Nazis are being sorted out as we speak.

 

[bones]

Ha ha. I've just read up on the story. Ministers from one party left... AFTER they gave zelensky a standing ovation.

The soldier who spoke was of Greek descent and is part of the azov battalion, which was also disbanded years ago and brought into the regular army. So the azov neo nazi brigade doesn't even exist now.

That’s not how both Alex’s on TheDuran podcast describe it. Both are Greek and both are reliable.

 

[cpleigh]

Any sane nation would be petrified of Nazis esp if they are on its border , buthchering thousands of Russian speakers. This is liberating them. Or Would you like them to allow this to continue?

Russia is defending its security. have you not kept up with the background of this conflict?

No land grab, Crimeans voted to join Russia, the two regions self declared independency.

The Nazis are being sorted out as we speak.

Russia invaded crimea... then came the farcical referendum. Please get that correct.

I know the background, I just don't have a kremlin skewed view on it.

 

[cpleigh]

That’s not how both Alex’s on TheDuran podcast describe it. Both are Greek and both are reliable.

Really?... the Duran podcast. You may aswell quote putin.

Jesus ha ha

 

[KingKhanWC]

Russia invaded crimea... then came the farcical referendum. Please get that correct.

I know the background, I just don't have a kremlin skewed view on it.

Where do you live and what is your background? Im only asking to give you context if you are from Europe.

A vote wasnt even needed, the eastern region is all Russian speakers. But the vote showed over 90% wanting to join Russia. Or do you believe the people there want to be part of a NAzi Ukraine? lol

 

[cpleigh]

I'm from the UK. Don't show me any voting figures from dictatorship. If you believe that, then well... I mean you have fallen for the 'Ukraine is full of nazis' line.

Ukraine isn't full of nazis. Strangely the azov nazi battalion wasn't formed until 2014, what happened in that year? Hmm.....

In my eyes crimea has always been Russian, but taking it by force and then doing a sham referendum wasn't right

 

[90MPH]

People who have a big bias towards the Russian position or Putin can only repeat the propaganda Putin and his cronies want to hear.

In case people don’t know Ukraine had legitimate elections in 2019. The far right wing or those that aligned with the Nazis gained only 3% of the vote.

To keep painting the Ukrainians as Nazis isn’t going to wash with anyone looking rationally on this conflict other than those looking for any narrative that favours this ridiculous invasion of Ukraine.

After the 2014 annexation the Azov battalion was formed and yes Ukraine did turn a blind eye to those far right wing elements because their millitary was in total disarray so they needed whatever fighters they could muster and so they turned out to be their best fighters in that part of Ukraine.

Putin wants Ukraine’s natural resources. This Nazi angle is total baloney considering the Wagner group and other numerous Neo Nazis reside in Russia and many other European countries for that matter.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

People who have a big bias towards the Russian position or Putin can only repeat the propaganda Putin and his cronies want to hear.

In case people don’t know Ukraine had legitimate elections in 2019. The far right wing or those that aligned with the Nazis gained only 3% of the vote.

To keep painting the Ukrainians as Nazis isn’t going to wash with anyone looking rationally on this conflict other than those looking for any narrative that favours this ridiculous invasion of Ukraine.

After the 2014 annexation the Azov battalion was formed and yes Ukraine did turn a blind eye to those far right wing elements because their millitary was in total disarray so they needed whatever fighters they could muster and so they turned out to be their best fighters in that part of Ukraine.

Putin wants Ukraine’s natural resources. This Nazi angle is total baloney considering the Wagner group and other numerous Neo Nazis reside in Russia and many other European countries for that matter.

It is perfectly possible to criticise both the Nazis and the Russians.

Ukraine is the only country in the world with an openly neo-nazi element in their armed forces.

Exempting them from criticism will just embolden neo nazis in other countries.

 

[90MPH]

It is perfectly possible to criticise both the Nazis and the Russians.

Ukraine is the only country in the world with an openly neo-nazi element in their armed forces.

Exempting them from criticism will just embolden neo nazis in other countries.

Who said you can’t criticise Nazis ? Who is denying that the Ukrainians don’t have a far right wing element in their millitary, that is specifically in the east of the country ?

What is ridiculous is people painting their whole millitary dictated by Nazis as some keep repeating to starve off criticism or deflect anything away from Putin.

Do you know what’s embolden the right wing Nazis in Ukraine ? It’s was this stupid decision to invade by Putin. He embolden them in 2014 and he gave them an even bigger present now.

Also Putin has personally given medals to Neo Nazi elements like the Wagner group who were involved in crimes against Syrians and Ukraine before this current invasion.
If you are going to criticise Nazis in Ukraine then you should show the same to the Russian Nazis.

 

[Technics 1210]

Anyone who believes Ukraine is innocent in all of this is in fact a nazi-sympathiser.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I'm from the UK. Don't show me any voting figures from dictatorship. If you believe that, then well... I mean you have fallen for the 'Ukraine is full of nazis' line.

Ukraine isn't full of nazis. Strangely the azov nazi battalion wasn't formed until 2014, what happened in that year? Hmm.....

In my eyes crimea has always been Russian, but taking it by force and then doing a sham referendum wasn't right

Azov are the national guard. Google what the national guard is and you will be enlightened. IF ISIS was the national guard of Pakistan, you'd be throwing out your toys.

If you're from the UK, put your money where you mouth is lad. We cannot go to fight and help the Palestinians or Kashmiris but YOU CAN go and fight to help the Jewish PM and the Nazis. Why are you on here instead? lol

 

[KingKhanWC]

People who have a big bias towards the Russian position or Putin can only repeat the propaganda Putin and his cronies want to hear.

In case people don’t know Ukraine had legitimate elections in 2019. The far right wing or those that aligned with the Nazis gained only 3% of the vote.

To keep painting the Ukrainians as Nazis isn’t going to wash with anyone looking rationally on this conflict other than those looking for any narrative that favours this ridiculous invasion of Ukraine.

After the 2014 annexation the Azov battalion was formed and yes Ukraine did turn a blind eye to those far right wing elements because their millitary was in total disarray so they needed whatever fighters they could muster and so they turned out to be their best fighters in that part of Ukraine.

Putin wants Ukraine’s natural resources. This Nazi angle is total baloney considering the Wagner group and other numerous Neo Nazis reside in Russia and many other European countries for that matter.

You forgot to mention the Azov and other Nazis fired into crowds and police in the coup which was designed and supported by Nato.

But I also assume you want Nato to fulfill their coup in Pakistan too, so more Pak children are blown to pieces by drones.

You are supporting the Nato narrative, supporting their cause. The cause of the biggest terrorist entity in history but are here daily calling out Putin. Funny chap you are lol

 

[90MPH]

You forgot to mention the Azov and other Nazis fired into crowds and police in the coup which was designed and supported by Nato.

But I also assume you want Nato to fulfill their coup in Pakistan too, so more Pak children are blown to pieces by drones.

You are supporting the Nato narrative, supporting their cause. The cause of the biggest terrorist entity in history but are here daily calling out Putin. Funny chap you are lol

You assume a lot of things don’t you ? In other words you like making up ** to anyone who doesn’t agree with your twisted thinking.

I support Ukraine defending themselves against an illegal invasion.

However you have come across as nothing but a pro war Putin apologist in this thread. That’s fine but at least own it. If I am funny at least I’m not a clown for thinking Russia won this war when their dismal failure to take Kyiv was there for everyone to see except the most deluded Putin propagandists.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You assume a lot of things don’t you ? In other words you like making up ** to anyone who doesn’t agree with your twisted thinking.

I support Ukraine defending themselves against an illegal invasion.

However you have come across as nothing but a pro war Putin apologist in this thread. That’s fine but at least own it. If I am funny at least I’m not a clown for thinking Russia won this war when their dismal failure to take Kyiv was there for everyone to see except the most deluded Putin propagandists.

Again, not a single debating point but more emotional whining.

Russia never intended to take Kiev. I think you're getting confused with Chicken Kieves from Iceland, Russians in UK do buy them.

Take a deep hard look in the mirror, you are supporting the most muderous entity in history in Nato. Yet you want to call out the Russians lol.