Sachin Tendulkar or Kapil Dev - Who was more integral to the Indian team during their tenures?

[Proactive_]

Many a times in various discussions, it is often brought up that Sachin Tendulkar was a one man army of sorts with the line up starting and ending with him. But is it the truth?

Let's look at some of the batting talent who accompanied Tendulkar during his career and their records in which they played with Tendulkar (>= 15 Tests):

Rahul Dravid - 11894 runs at 52.62
V.Sehwag - 7785 runs at 49.90
VVS Laxman - 7988 runs at 46.98
S. Ganguly - 6353 runs at 40.72
M. Azharuddin - 4303 runs at 44.36
N.S Sidhu - 2786 runs at 44.22
G. Gambhir - 3869 runs at 44.47
V. Kohli - 1159 runs at 46.36
C. Pujara - 1310 runs at 65.50
V. Kambli - 1084 runs at 54.20

That's a ton of players averaging > 40 being in the same line up as Sachin. Hell, since the turn of the millennium, Sachin, for the most part had the privilege of being flanked in the batting order by -

1) One of the most destructive openers of his time - V. Sehwag.
2) One of the best No.3s of his time - Rahul Dravid.
3) One of the best pressure players of his time - VVS Laxman.

Even after 1996, he had 2 very able batting contemporaries in Dravid and Ganguly (who averaged around 50 in the 90s).

In contrast, let's look at the incredible fast/medium bowling support Kapil Dev enjoyed in his 15 year career:

M. Prabhakar - 92 wickets at 36.60
K.D Ghavri - 79 wickets at 35.73
C. Sharma - 57 wickets at 37.28
M. Lal - 42 wickets at 44.50

And..THAT. IS. ALL! Not a single fast/medium bowler averaging below 35 and the combined wickets of these four add up to be barely half of Kapil's tally.

So, the question is - If Tendulkar is some sort of a godly figure to the Indian cricket fans, then what status should (or should have been) be given to the lone workhorse in Kapil Dev who almost single handedly carried the Indian attack for 15 years averaging <30 with absolutely negligible support from the other end? Food for thought.

 

[Chrish]

Sachin is/ was their most important cricketer and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

These stats tell that 'Sachin had no support' is a myth. Kapil on the other side had a weak team so can be said he is underrated.

 

[Proactive_]

Sachin is/ was their most important cricketer and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

Important due to the rise of media and marketing during Sachin's tenure. If Kapil had the same media exposure that Sachin had during his tenure, he would have been a much much bigger figure in the Indian cricket scene. The guy WAS OUR ENTIRE BOWLING LINE UP for absolute years.

 

[Chrish]

Important due to the rise of media and marketing during Sachin's tenure. If Kapil had the same media exposure that Sachin had during his tenure, he would have been a much much bigger figure in the Indian cricket scene. The guy WAS OUR ENTIRE BOWLING LINE UP for absolute years.

Sachin is arguably among top 3 batsman ever..

Same can't be said about Kapil.

 

[czar]

Important due to the rise of media and marketing during Sachin's tenure. If Kapil had the same media exposure that Sachin had during his tenure, he would have been a much much bigger figure in the Indian cricket scene. The guy WAS OUR ENTIRE BOWLING LINE UP for absolute years.

Sachin was World Class ATG, Kapil Wasn't.

I don't set any reason why fans would be crazy for Kapil. Was he a bowler like Wasim or Waqar or Amir?

Kalil was very Afridiesque in the Odis, don't see a bits and pieces Cricketer capturing the imagination of a Nation like India.

With Sachin the common belief in the 90s was that he is the best Batsman in the World.

 

[Proactive_]

Sachin is arguably among top 3 batsman ever..

Same can't be said about Kapil.

That's not the premise of this thread.. and the last time I checked, cricket was a team game. Say in a team of 5 great batsman, the team is bound to do alright even if the greatest amongst them doesn't play. On the other hand, in a team of just one very good bowler, the team is bound to be absolutely BURIED if that sole bowler doesn't play. That's what Kapil meant to the Indian team during his tenure, Sachin hardly commanded the sort of relative importance in the batting line up during this tenure.

 

[Proactive_]

Sachin was World Class ATG, Kapil Wasn't.

I don't set any reason why fans would be crazy for Kapil. Was he a bowler like Wasim or Waqar or Amir?

Kalil was very Afridiesque in the Odis, don't see a bits and pieces Cricketer capturing the imagination of a Nation like India.

With Sachin the common belief in the 90s was that he is the best Batsman in the World.

I don't expect non Indian fans to be crazy about Kapil tbh. But for Indian fans who are aware of the fact that this guy was our entire bowling line up for a solid 15 years, someone who averted dozens upon dozens of embarrassing defeats due to his sheer presence, the lack of recognition and respect in the Indian cricketing circles is appalling. While Sachin sits with unmatchable fame, money and the highest civilian honour, we barely get mentions of Kapil Dev while discussing the most important players to ever represent India. That's embarrassing.

 

[Hitman]

I don't expect non Indian fans to be crazy about Kapil tbh. But for Indian fans who are aware of the fact that this guy was our entire bowling line up for a solid 15 years, someone who averted dozens upon dozens of embarrassing defeats due to his sheer presence, the lack of recognition and respect in the Indian cricketing circles is appalling. While Sachin sits with unmatchable fame, money and the highest civilian honour, we barely get mentions of Kapil Dev while discussing the most important players to ever represent India. That's embarrassing.

You're kidding, right? Kapil Dev has always been celebrated by Indian fans and has always been considered among the pillars of Indian cricket. Not as celebrated as Sachin, but then again no one else is celebrated as much as Sachin either.

 

[TQ89]

Kapil dev might not get respect here at PP but he is a bonafide ATG. Says who? Cricket experts such as Richie benaud, Ian chappell, tony greig, ian botham & the list can go on.

I loved watching old Pak vs ind matches highlights when i was a teen and I personally loved his batting more than his bowling. True clutch player and judging by the reviews by some of my older relatives who have seen him in the 80's, he had a mean outswinger & used to trouble the openers very well.

 

[Buffet]

Dev was probably a better cricketer from value perspective for India.

 

[Robert]

Kapil. Before him, India bowled rubbish military medium long enough to get there three spinners on. In Kapil they had a proper test strike bowler, who also hit eight centuries in a hard era of bowling.

 

[thehub]

OP smartly put their overall record of those batsmen. India have never been bad at home since sachin's debut. India hardly lost any home series in 90s. But they were generally called poor or average in 90s due to away performances as we won only one test match in 90s. Kindly put away average of sachin and other batsmen in 90s when sachin was a lone warrier. You would know why and how Sachin became popular and super hero. Anyway since 2000s India have been a decent team as we won a lot of matches away due to help from these top class players like Dravid, Gaurav, Shewag, kohli, gambir,etc to support him and he himself changed his game to prolong his career due to tennis elbow injury and losing reflexes due to aging.

 

[thehub]

Between Kapil and Sachin, both were best cricketer of the team during their career. But Kapil did not get as much hype and popularity as Sachin due to cricket viewing population being lower in his days and Sachin was considered, especially by indian fans, best batsman in the world whereas Kapil was only best in India and one of the 4 best all rounders in the world. Sachin was praised by media all over the world in 90s but Kapil too was praised but only as one among the four. I myself growing up in 80s could see the difference.

 

[santos11]

Sachin was among the very few ATG batsmen of the 90s, Kapil Dev was one of the many above average Cricketers.

 

[Proactive_]

Sachin was among the very few ATG batsmen of the 90s, Kapil Dev was one of the many above average Cricketers.

But was he as important to the Indian team during his tenure as Kapil Dev was in his?

 

[troodon]

Kapil never fulfilled his potential. He was a great bowler who can bat very well when he started off.

When Kapil suffered injuries (after the first 3 years) and became a total trundler, he was still a decent bowler. Nothing special. But his batting never fulfilled its true potential.

IMO, Kapil used to come in at 7 down and used to slog from Ball 1. He was Afridi of his era for India. As long as Kapil was at the crease, you know runs flowed. But the issue is, he never put a price on his wicket and used to slog and get caught at the boundary.

If Kapil improved his batting after his bowling suffered, he would have surely achieved his Sachin status. I remember watching Kapil in late 80's (though I was a small boy) and all my neighbor uncles used to curse him for throwing his wicket away and batting like a mindless slogger.

Sachin never reduced his effectiveness to the level of Kapil. In Early 90's, I used to think, when would Kapil retire. He was total garbage for the last 5 or 6 years of his career. His average suffered and his lasting impressions on the fans mind was of a hack with the bat and a trundler with the ball (though he was a pretty good trundler).

 

[thehub]

Kapil never fulfilled his potential. He was a great bowler who can bat very well when he started off.

When Kapil suffered injuries (after the first 3 years) and became a total trundler, he was still a decent bowler. Nothing special. But his batting never fulfilled its true potential.

IMO, Kapil used to come in at 7 down and used to slog from Ball 1. He was Afridi of his era for India. As long as Kapil was at the crease, you know runs flowed. But the issue is, he never put a price on his wicket and used to slog and get caught at the boundary.

If Kapil improved his batting after his bowling suffered, he would have surely achieved his Sachin status. I remember watching Kapil in late 80's (though I was a small boy) and all my neighbor uncles used to curse him for throwing his wicket away and batting like a mindless slogger.

Sachin never reduced his effectiveness to the level of Kapil. In Early 90's, I used to think, when would Kapil retire. He was total garbage for the last 5 or 6 years of his career. His average suffered and his lasting impressions on the fans mind was of a hack with the bat and a trundler with the ball (though he was a pretty good trundler).

spot on. Yes he was a better version of Afridi with the bat. he was the most talented batsman of the 4 all rounders those days. though he played a few great innings but he could have played a lot more of such innings with the amount of talent he had with the bat.

he still was a smart bowler though. decent captain as well. if he had been smarter with the bat, he could have at least become the best all rounder in 80s.

 

[Proactive_]

Can someone please reply to the crux of this thread and not make it an individualistic analysis? Of course Sachin Tendulkar was a better batsman than Kapil was a bowler, nobody is discussing that. But as the thread title says - Was Sachin ever as integral to the Indian team's success as Kapil was during his time as evidenced by the support they achieved in their careers in batting and bowling respectively?

 

[thehub]

Can someone please reply to the crux of this thread and not make it an individualistic analysis? Of course Sachin Tendulkar was a better batsman than Kapil was a bowler, nobody is discussing that. But as the thread title says - Was Sachin ever as integral to the Indian team's success as Kapil was during his time as evidenced by the support they achieved in their careers in batting and bowling respectively?

Then why did you have to put the average of other indian batsmen as if they scored tons of runs outside of subcontinent. Also Sachin played for more than two decades. he was called one man army only during 90s.. he was never called anything like that since Dravid and Sourav settled into the team ( around 2002/03) to form big 3.
Sachin was given godly status because of his contribution during 90s when we were a poor team. he was the only one stood up and praised by everyone as best batsman in the world. even during his second part of his career, he was still doing well and almost as good as Dravid or any other top batsman in 2000s.

during 80s when Kapil was popular, India were not as bad as India in 90s. we were one of the several average teams like Aus, Eng, NZ, SL,etc., Kapil had a support from some of the great/good batsmen we had like Gavaskar, Vishwanath, Vengsarkar, Amarnath who performed not only in India even in places like Eng, Windies as well. Gavaskar was equally popular those days. Its definitely not one man army like in 90s.

Azhar was close second but even he struggled outside of India. just played a few good innings here and there.
Dravid and Ganguly were just new to the team in late 90s and struggled against top quality bowlers.

 

[Proactive_]

Then why did you have to put the average of other indian batsmen as if they scored tons of runs outside of subcontinent. Also Sachin played for more than two decades. he was called one man army only during 90s.. he was never called anything like that since Dravid and Sourav settled into the team ( around 2002/03) to form big 3.
Sachin was given godly status because of his contribution during 90s when we were a poor team. he was the only one stood up and praised by everyone as best batsman in the world. even during his second part of his career, he was still doing well and almost as good as Dravid or any other top batsman in 2000s.

during 80s when Kapil was popular, India were not as bad as India in 90s. we were one of the several average teams like Aus, Eng, NZ, SL,etc., Kapil had a support from some of the great/good batsmen we had like Gavaskar, Vishwanath, Vengsarkar, Amarnath who performed not only in India even in places like Eng, Windies as well. Gavaskar was equally popular those days. Its definitely not one man army like in 90s.

Azhar was close second but even he struggled outside of India. just played a few good innings here and there.
Dravid and Ganguly were just new to the team in late 90s and struggled against top quality bowlers.

Ganguly and Dravid debuted in 96, 7 years into Sachin's 23 year career. Both averaged 50+ in the 90s. Azhar averaged a respectable 38 overseas with 8 hundreds in the 90s.. and post 90s he has had possibly the best batting support of any batsman occupying a cozy No.4 slot flanked by great batsman. Kapil on the other hand had ZERO support in the fast/medium department from almost the start to finish of his career. It's not even a comparison.

 

[zulfiqar]

Hard to say really.. but I imagine most Sachin fans will say Sachin, while the rest will say Kapil. It's hard to be "objective" on a question like this. Personally if you are talking about test cricket, I think Kapil Dev for sure is a more valuable cricketer, without a doubt.

But if you are talking about LOIs or overall, I think Sachin's impact from a cultural standpoint is massive! He is the Michael Jordan of Indian cricket, and there is an aura about him that just can't be overshadowed by players who came before him or the ones who come after him.

 

[thehub]

Ganguly and Dravid debuted in 96, 7 years into Sachin's 23 year career. Both averaged 50+ in the 90s. Azhar averaged a respectable 38 overseas with 8 hundreds in the 90s.. and post 90s he has had possibly the best batting support of any batsman occupying a cozy No.4 slot flanked by great batsman. Kapil on the other hand had ZERO support in the fast/medium department from almost the start to finish of his career. It's not even a comparison.

to make an impact that too outside subcontinent and when most of your batsmen were duds, 38 average would not help. Tendulkar had 50+

Dravid and Ganguly were still new to the setup. not established yet. average may be high due to their 95 and 130 in their first game. check their average against Aus and SA. very low. still only there for 3.5 yrs of entire decade.

Its a known fact that Sachin was the only shining light of India as far as batting is concerned in 90s. no one outside of india respected players like Sidhu, Jadeja, kambli, Gandhi, Ramesh,etc.,

like I said Azhar was close second. still 38 was not good enough.

As far as Kapil not having any support, like I said Kapil was popular in 80s. People still loved him for his effort. But he was never the best in the world like Sachin. Maybe if our pitches were helping seamers, maybe he would have had slightly more wickets to show and average would have been like Imrans or Hadlees. He was one among the 4 allrounder. he could have been the best had he been slightly smarter with the bat. He def underachieved with the bat. I myself was a fan of him in 80s before becoming Sachin's fan in 90s.

 

[Specialisttailender]

Definetly Sachin, how many players praise Kapi Dev now adays ?

 

[PakLFC]

Teenda for sure. Kapil though a good player didn't have much personality. Crying on TV over match fixing allegations showed how weak he is as a man.

 

[thehub]

Teenda for sure. Kapil though a good player didn't have much personality. Crying on TV over match fixing allegations showed how weak he is as a man.

Kapil not only batted like Afridi, he spoke like Afridi in front of the Mike. That also didn't help though he was our best fast bowler and all rounder during his entire career.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Half of Tendulkar's career was in a very strong batting unit. I have never bought this claim that Sachin was a lone warrior. It might be true for 2-3 years around 1996 only.

 

[czar]

Half of Tendulkar's career was in a very strong batting unit. I have never bought this claim that Sachin was a lone warrior. It might be true for 2-3 years around 1996 only.

Look at the Chennai Test for example, it was a Lone effort from one Man. Rest of the team-mates had no reputation at that time.

Or the 1999 Test Series in Australia for example where SRT single handedly stood against the ATG bowling line-up and was also the Man of the Series.

 

[thehub]

Half of Tendulkar's career was in a very strong batting unit. I have never bought this claim that Sachin was a lone warrior. It might be true for 2-3 years around 1996 only.

Sachin was called lone warrier only during 90s which was first half of his career. Which half are you referring to?

 

[The_Odd_One]

Look at the Chennai Test for example, it was a Lone effort from one Man. Rest of the team-mates had no reputation at that time.

Or the 1999 Test Series in Australia for example where SRT single handedly stood against the ATG bowling line-up and was also the Man of the Series.

I am not denying Tendulkar's contribution. Even in 1998/99, India had a solid test team. The bowlers with which Kapil had to bowl was embarassing.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Sachin was called lone warrier only during 90s which was first half of his career. Which half are you referring to?

94 to 97 - all other times India had an average to a strong batting line up.

 

[thehub]

94 to 97 - all other times India had an average to a strong batting line up.

When you say strong, were they strong away from home? Check their away average. We had Ramesh, Devang Gandhi, sidhu, manjraker in 90s was average, jadeja, etc I see you did not watch indian team play, rather checked the overall average.

 

[PakLFC]

Kapil not only batted like Afridi, he spoke like Afridi in front of the Mike. That also didn't help though he was our best fast bowler and all rounder during his entire career.

Is being like Lala supposed to be a good thing? He was medium pacer not a fast bowler.

 

[Proactive_]

to make an impact that too outside subcontinent and when most of your batsmen were duds, 38 average would not help. Tendulkar had 50+

Dravid and Ganguly were still new to the setup. not established yet. average may be high due to their 95 and 130 in their first game. check their average against Aus and SA. very low. still only there for 3.5 yrs of entire decade.

Its a known fact that Sachin was the only shining light of India as far as batting is concerned in 90s. no one outside of india respected players like Sidhu, Jadeja, kambli, Gandhi, Ramesh,etc.,

like I said Azhar was close second. still 38 was not good enough.

As far as Kapil not having any support, like I said Kapil was popular in 80s. People still loved him for his effort. But he was never the best in the world like Sachin. Maybe if our pitches were helping seamers, maybe he would have had slightly more wickets to show and average would have been like Imrans or Hadlees. He was one among the 4 allrounder. he could have been the best had he been slightly smarter with the bat. He def underachieved with the bat. I myself was a fan of him in 80s before becoming Sachin's fan in 90s.

So, basically your point is that Sachin being a lone warrior in the batting line up "just overseas" for a period of 6-7 years makes him more integral to the Indian team than your ONLY strike bowler was HOME and OVERSEAS for a period of 15 years? Without Kapil, we wouldn't even have had a respectable home record for the majority of the 80s.

 

[thehub]

So, basically your point is that Sachin being a lone warrior in the batting line up "just overseas" for a period of 6-7 years makes him more integral to the Indian team than your ONLY strike bowler was HOME and OVERSEAS for a period of 15 years? Without Kapil, we wouldn't even have had a respectable home record for the majority of the 80s.

You didnt get my point I guess. We had a good batting line up during Kapil's days. Gavaskar, Vishy, Vengsarkar, Amarnath, Azhar, Srikanth during 80s was decent, etc., with Kapil and Shastri being allrounders. Kirmani/More being wicketkeeper batsman, we had a good and long batting line up in 80s. these guys performed with bat in overseas condition as well. that helped our poor bowling lineup with Kapil being the lone star.

Its not like Kapil had to single handedly stand up every time. Gavaskar was as big a hero like Kapil. both were fighting (not literally) with each other for number 1 (or super star) of India.

during Sachin's days in 90s, there was no competition. It was all Sachin in 90s. Azhar was competing at the beginning of 90s, then gap became huge. Sachin was competing with Lara for world's number 1. The way Sachin dominated the best team in 90s too really helped to get that status. who will forget that ODI game in Sharjah. never seen anyone single handadly winning a game with hardly any help from other side and all without any slogging or high risky shots. not just one fluky game. he did that in previous game as well. test series against australia in 98 at home, sealed the deal for him. He carted aussie bowlers all over in that series.

Overall you cant compare Sachin and Kapil. 99 out of 100 analysts would pick Sachin in top 10 whereas none will pick Kapil in top 10.

If you just talk about contribution to Indian Cricket, yes. Kapil has done a lot but Sachin has done slightly more with longevity of 23 yrs with millions of runs.