Sachin Tendulkar vs AB de Villiers - The overall complete batsman?

[Chrish]

When I look at the players from last 40 years, Viv, Sachin, Ponting and ABD are the only four whom I consider as the "complete batsmen". By complete, I mean players who have performed equally well in both formats of the game. Players like Lara and Dravid were great in test only while Gangualy was great in ODI only.

AB de Villiers has shown great potential in in past 5 years. Both him and SRT have acquired fan base outside of their own countries. Both have likable personalities without any visible arrogance.

So, the question is can he suppress SRT? Also, potential wise where do you rank him?

How do you feel about the bowling standards that ABD has faced compared to the standards of 90s and early 2000s?? I personally feel today's standards have dropped but that's just my opinion. I would like to know yours..

Don't say Sachin just because you are Indian and don't say ABD just because are non-Indian. Let's try to be brutally honest here for once.

 

[Neferpitou]

If AB keeps going at this rate and gets 10k+ in both formats. He'll be GOAT.

 

[smoothcriminal]

When I look at the players from last 40 years, Viv, Sachin, Ponting and ABD are the only four whom I consider as the "complete batsmen". By complete, I mean players who have performed equally well in both formats of the game. Players like Lara and Dravid were great in test only while Gangualy was great in ODI only.

AB de Villiers has shown great potential in in past 5 years. Both him and SRT have acquired fan base outside of their own countries. Both have likable personalities without any visible arrogance.

So, the question is can he suppress SRT? Also, potential wise where do you rank him?

How do you feel about the bowling standards that ABD has faced compared to the standards of 90s and early 2000s?? I personally feel today's standards have dropped but that's just my opinion. I would like to know yours..

Don't say Sachin just because you are Indian and don't say ABD just because are non-Indian. Let's try to be brutally honest here for once.

This thread will go a long distance (unless it gets merged). I'd say the kind of bowlers Tendu faced (Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, Pollock, Warne, Akhtar, Lee, Gillespie, Murali etc) combined with the fact that the game was not geared that much towards the batsmen back then (longer boundaries, no power-plays etc) elevates his contributions as a batsmen.

AB De Villiers can shift gears unlike Tendu ever could and might perhaps be more dynamic (even more so than Tendu) but has had much friendlier batting conditions during the peak of his career combined with not as challenging bowlers (still very competitive though).

For that reason along with Tendu's extraordinary longevity make him a better ODI batsman than ABDV. He just did it in a more competitive environment. This is not to diminish ABDV's career and his contributions at all. ABDV still I believe has a lot to accomplish if he wants to be regarded in the "arguably GOAT" (greatest of all time) discussion.

 

[Hawkeye]

What AB has been doing, it's Viv-esque or heck, even better.

He needs to do it for a longer time though. At this rate, he'll surpass even Viv Richards who is at the top, and obviously Tendulkar as well.

 

[Chrish]

First part of your post sums up my views. I feel all the batters are having it easy right now as there arent many decent bowling attacks left. Not having to face SA bowlers is also a luxury not many can enjoy. Let's see how others feel about this.

 

[FlickedOffHips]

When I look at the players from last 40 years, Viv, Sachin, Ponting and ABD are the only four whom I consider as the "complete batsmen". By complete, I mean players who have performed equally well in both formats of the game. Players like Lara and Dravid were great in test only while Gangualy was great in ODI only.

AB de Villiers has shown great potential in in past 5 years. Both him and SRT have acquired fan base outside of their own countries. Both have likable personalities without any visible arrogance.

So, the question is can he suppress SRT? Also, potential wise where do you rank him?

How do you feel about the bowling standards that ABD has faced compared to the standards of 90s and early 2000s?? I personally feel today's standards have dropped but that's just my opinion. I would like to know yours..

Don't say Sachin just because you are Indian and don't say ABD just because are non-Indian. Let's try to be brutally honest here for once.

ABD is on the path to be an All-time-great(below Bradman of course). He just needs to keep performing like he has done recently for the next 6-7 years.

 

[Jo_Don]

Both are the best of their generations. But I believe that all formats combined, the only comparison is Viv vs AB.

Tendulkar was among the most technically correct. Aggressive when need be, but you still had the feeling that he was playing within his limitations.

AB you feel has no such limitations, no part of the ground is safe when he's on song. Can stone wall for a day in test cricket, or change the course of a match in 5 overs in LOIs. Can be technically correct, or completely unorthodox, making it impossible to formulate a bowling plan.His ability to change gears has very rarely been seen in the past, which is why I cannot think of a batsman who he's comparable to.

I wouldn't rate one above the other as they're very different types of batsmen. But both, along with Viv, would be be my first picks in a combined XI.

 

[Slog]

I regret that I never got to watch Viv but AB is the most complete batsman I have ever seen.

Never sees a batsman more comfortable as he goes through so many different gears

 

[Buffet]

Since AB is still going strong, let him finish his career. He surely has class to belong there.

 

[Pak Warrior]

Right now Viv > Sachin > Maybe AB can move higher when it's all set and done but he's got a while to go.

Also these are not my GOAT batters, just going with the OP sample set

 

[cricketjoshila]

People here are assuming that Viv is better than Tendulkar,well thats something i dont agree with.

 

[Slog]

Only thing I am unconvinced with AB is that he has this tendency to not finish the job off.

He tends to throw the wicket away when you enter the final stretch

 

[BigBoy123]

Abd is by far better then tendu...
Abd can play a patient knock of 33 in about 240 balls to draw a match
And in the very next match he cam score a 100 in 70 odd balls to win a match..
He can score century in 31 balls which i find it hard to do in ea cricket
He can play shots like no other batsman , he can hit 110 m + sixes ...people here are saying that he hasn't faced great bowlers like McGrath wasim waqar etx dare i sau that if abd had faced them they would not have been great

 

[Tusker]

So the no.of WC knockouts won by AB is ..........................

Dil behlana etc etc

 

[Chrish]

So the no.of WC knockouts won by AB is ..........................

Dil behlana etc etc

WC is not the only factor when we evaluate player's career. It's only a tiny drop in the sea.

 

[Chrish]

Both are the best of their generations. But I believe that all formats combined, the only comparison is Viv vs AB.

Tendulkar was among the most technically correct. Aggressive when need be, but you still had the feeling that he was playing within his limitations.

AB you feel has no such limitations, no part of the ground is safe when he's on song. Can stone wall for a day in test cricket, or change the course of a match in 5 overs in LOIs. Can be technically correct, or completely unorthodox, making it impossible to formulate a bowling plan.His ability to change gears has very rarely been seen in the past, which is why I cannot think of a batsman who he's comparable to.

I wouldn't rate one above the other as they're very different types of batsmen. But both, along with Viv, would be be my first picks in a combined XI.

Valid points you raise here. Abd's ability to 'shift gears' and adopt to situations is second to none.. Even hardcore Sachin fans can't argue against it.

 

[HippoSucks]

I hope this thread doesn't turn into an actual de Villiers v. Sachin thread based on his performance so far...

Anyway, while I think de Villiers is a brilliant batsman, I don't think he will surpass Sachin. I believe he will definitely end up as an ATG though.

One issue with de Villiers surpassing Sachin is the quality of bowlers nowadays. The only ATG bowler playing right now is Steyn and he plays for South Africa. Others like Johnson are good sometimes but overall not nearly good as the bowlers Sachin faced.

Another benefit de Villiers has, which is more apparent in ODIs, are the extremely batting favorable conditions. Extremely flat pitches, idiotic fielding restrictions etc. When Sachin scored the first 200, it was astonishing. Now, it is hardly surprising.

Of course you can't blame de Villiers for that. He has to face what he gets to play against. However, you have to consider that when comparing the two batsman.

Sachin also has longevity on his side. I personally don't see de Villiers lasting as long as him (and still ending up with a fantastic record).

It is unfair to compare batsman over generations. At this stage, we have to take de Villiers for who he is rather than making comparisons with other great batsman.

 

[HippoSucks]

Both are the best of their generations. But I believe that all formats combined, the only comparison is Viv vs AB.

Tendulkar was among the most technically correct. Aggressive when need be, but you still had the feeling that he was playing within his limitations.

AB you feel has no such limitations, no part of the ground is safe when he's on song. Can stone wall for a day in test cricket, or change the course of a match in 5 overs in LOIs. Can be technically correct, or completely unorthodox, making it impossible to formulate a bowling plan.His ability to change gears has very rarely been seen in the past, which is why I cannot think of a batsman who he's comparable to.

I wouldn't rate one above the other as they're very different types of batsmen. But both, along with Viv, would be be my first picks in a combined XI.

But in that era, you rarely had teams scoring 300 odd in ODIs or players having strike rates of 150. That's why in hindsight, it may seem that because Sachin didn't go from batting 2 days in tests to scoring with an SR of 200 in ODIs, he didn't have the ability to switch gears.

 

[Chrish]

People here are assuming that Viv is better than Tendulkar,well thats something i dont agree with.

They are neck and neck for me.. Ppl often bring up the argument that Sachin wasn't as destructive as Viv.. but they fail to realize that Viv had the support of one of the strongest batting and bowling units ever see. So, he could afford to be more aggressive.

Sachin could do the same but didn't have this luxury for most part of his career. I still remember that inning of 155 in 188 bowls against SA when India lost early wickets and Sachin was forced to play his natural game

 

[Jo_Don]

I hope this thread doesn't turn into an actual de Villiers v. Sachin thread based on his performance so far...

Anyway, while I think de Villiers is a brilliant batsman, I don't think he will surpass Sachin. I believe he will definitely end up as an ATG though.

One issue with de Villiers surpassing Sachin is the quality of bowlers nowadays. The only ATG bowler playing right now is Steyn and he plays for South Africa. Others like Johnson are good sometimes but overall not nearly good as the bowlers Sachin faced.

Another benefit de Villiers has, which is more apparent in ODIs, are the extremely batting favorable conditions. Extremely flat pitches, idiotic fielding restrictions etc. When Sachin scored the first 200, it was astonishing. Now, it is hardly surprising.

Of course you can't blame de Villiers for that. He has to face what he gets to play against. However, you have to consider that when comparing the two batsman.

Sachin also has longevity on his side. I personally don't see de Villiers lasting as long as him (and still ending up with a fantastic record).

That's not AB's fault though. My criteria for greatness is that they would have been great in any era. AB certainly would have had the same skill in a previous era, that would not have changed. And he would have handled any type of bowler in the same manner, as we saw when Johnson was in the form of his life and ripping through batting line-ups. He's the only guy who Steyn has admitted to fearing bowling to.

Tendulkar only recently retired, so yes while he did face some great bowlers, he also played in the current era. And in the current era, it's hard to say that he was significantly better than AB. His approach to the current bowlers was pretty much the same as his approach to past bowlers - one would expect him to have slaughtered the current lot of bowlers if they were so bad, yet he didn't really. Which I why I feel that he played within his limitations, whereas I feel that AB doesn't really have any except for him getting bored and getting himself out, mostly through ridiculous run-outs.

 

[cricketjoshila]

They are neck and neck for me.. Ppl often bring up the argument that Sachin wasn't as destructive as Viv.. but they fail to realize that Viv had the support of one of the strongest batting and bowling units ever see. So, he could afford to be more aggressive.

Sachin could do the same but didn't have this luxury for most part of his career. I still remember that inning of 155 in 188 bowls against SA when India lost early wickets and Sachin was forced to play his natural game

I have always believed that the top 4 batsman of all times in no particular order are Bradman Tendulkar Viv and Sobers.

When you watched Tendulkar play you get that joy and feeling of watching a genius at work in same feeling was associated with Viv.ABDV gives a similar vibe of being a genius but i get a feeling that he gives up or throws it away before the job is done.

 

[Jo_Don]

They are neck and neck for me.. Ppl often bring up the argument that Sachin wasn't as destructive as Viv.. but they fail to realize that Viv had the support of one of the strongest batting and bowling units ever see. So, he could afford to be more aggressive.

Sachin could do the same but didn't have this luxury for most part of his career. I still remember that inning of 155 in 188 bowls against SA when India lost early wickets and Sachin was forced to play his natural game

Sachin played with one of the best ever middle orders in Dravid, Ganguly and Laxman. India's problem was their bowling.

The West Indies certainly possessed one of the best ever bowling units, but their batting was no better than most other teams. Most other teams had some great batters. The difference is that no other team had a Viv.

So I wouldn't really say that Tendulkar was hampered by a poor batting lineup, that is certainly not true.

 

[HippoSucks]

That's not AB's fault though. My criteria for greatness is that they would have been great in any era. AB certainly would have had the same skill in a previous era, that would not have changed. And he would have handled any type of bowler in the same manner, as we saw when Johnson was in the form of his life and ripping through batting line-ups. He's the only guy who Steyn has admitted to fearing bowling to.

Tendulkar only recently retired, so yes while he did face some great bowlers, he also played in the current era. And in the current era, it's hard to say that he was significantly better than AB. His approach to the current bowlers was pretty much the same as his approach to past bowlers - one would expect him to have slaughtered the current lot of bowlers if they were so bad, yet he didn't really. Which I why I feel that he played within his limitations, whereas I feel that AB doesn't really have any except for him getting bored and getting himself out, mostly through ridiculous run-outs.

He would have been as skillful as he is now, but how can he predict how he would have handled those bowlers? Getting a 149 in ODIs against Holder, Taylor etc is much different then doing it against McGrath and Warne.

In the last decade, Sachin was in the second half of his career. Obviously you wouldn't expect him to be as good as a future ATG who has been playing for much less.

Also, several of the ridiculous changes (especially in ODI cricket) have been made through these 5 years (partly after Sachin retired). For example, the amount of 300s scored this world cup were much more than the amount scored in 2011. I don't think there was a substantial increase in the quality of batsman (or a significant decrease in the quality of bowlers) within these 4 years.

 

[Energetic]

Both have a lower average than the pocket-dynamo.

 

[Jo_Don]

He would have been as skillful as he is now, but how can he predict how he would have handled those bowlers? Getting a 149 in ODIs against Holder, Taylor etc is much different then doing it against McGrath and Warne.

In the last decade, Sachin was in the second half of his career. Obviously you wouldn't expect him to be as good as a future ATG who has been playing for much less.

Also, several of the ridiculous changes (especially in ODI cricket) have been made through these 5 years (partly after Sachin retired). For example, the amount of 300s scored this world cup were much more than the amount scored in 2011. I don't think there was a substantial increase in the quality of batsman (or a significant decrease in the quality of bowlers) within these 4 years.

To be fair, Tendulkar was as good as he always was, even in the last decade. He only really declined in his last 18 months, but preceding that he was as good as ever. His 2010 series in SA was his best ever tour to the country, for example.

 

[Sherlock]

Just ask yourself this....If you were the bowler which batsmen would you feel you had the better chance against.

As much as I loved watching Sachin and all his great innings, I think AB has taken that mantle and upped the batting capabilities and has risen the bar once again.

AB doesn't give the bowler the chance to settle into any rhythm at all nor are any deliveries safe from the boundary count.

 

[Jo_Don]

Both have a lower average than the pocket-dynamo.

Mominul is in a different league. Let's not stain his name by bringing him into this thread

 

[Energetic]

Mominul is in a different league. Let's not stain his name by bringing him into this thread

By that I hope you mean a league of superiority.

 

[cricketjoshila]

That's not AB's fault though. My criteria for greatness is that they would have been great in any era. AB certainly would have had the same skill in a previous era, that would not have changed. And he would have handled any type of bowler in the same manner, as we saw when Johnson was in the form of his life and ripping through batting line-ups. He's the only guy who Steyn has admitted to fearing bowling to.

Tendulkar only recently retired, so yes while he did face some great bowlers, he also played in the current era. And in the current era, it's hard to say that he was significantly better than AB. His approach to the current bowlers was pretty much the same as his approach to past bowlers - one would expect him to have slaughtered the current lot of bowlers if they were so bad, yet he didn't really. Which I why I feel that he played within his limitations, whereas I feel that AB doesn't really have any except for him getting bored and getting himself out, mostly through ridiculous run-outs.

Its wrong to compare the last period of Tendulkar with the peak period of ABDV.At his best Tendulkar avgd closed to 60 and in 90s was one of two people to avg 50 with the bat.Tendulkar faced better bowlers than ABDV and while its not ABDVs fault but that surely has to be weighed in.

No one can deny that there is only one ATG bowler today and thats Steyn and ABDV doesnt has to face him.And an in form Johnson alone cannot negate the number of ATGs SRT faced.

 

[Chrish]

Current ODI cricket has become too easy. Anwar's record of 194 is the proof. The record was unbroken for years and all of a sudden dudes started scoring double tons every few months.. You can thank all the new fielding restrictions for that.. We live in an era of inflated Cricket averages (true for ODI format).

 

[HippoSucks]

To be fair, Tendulkar was as good as he always was, even in the last decade. He only really declined in his last 18 months, but preceding that he was as good as ever. His 2010 series in SA was his best ever tour to the country, for example.

I have to disagree. Sachin in the 90s was quite superior to him in this millennium. Yes he had some brilliant years but overall was a different player.

And again, cricket has evolved as a batsman's game more significantly in the past few years (when de Villiers is in his peak). So you can't take de Villiers' performance in his peak in these favorable conditions and compare it against Sachin's performance in his last few years.

 

[cricketjoshila]

To be fair, Tendulkar was as good as he always was, even in the last decade. He only really declined in his last 18 months, but preceding that he was as good as ever. His 2010 series in SA was his best ever tour to the country, for example.

Anyone who has watched Tendulkar in 90s will tell you that he wasnt the same after 2004.Even he said the same.He had to change his bat weight had to cut out shots like the flick from outside off or full blodded square cut or the lofted shot striaght and many such due to tennis elbow.It took him almost 2 years to adjust to such huge changes in his batting.But it was his sheer genius that he still looked world class and still did what he did in 2010 in SA.But he was far from the Tendulkar at his best.

If you want to see the changes in his batting watch his hundreds againist AUS in 98 and then watch his 100 vs NZ in NZ in 2009 you would see a very distinct change in shot making.

 

[Chrish]

I have to disagree. Sachin in the 90s was quite superior to him in this millennium. Yes he had some brilliant years but overall was a different player.

And again, cricket has evolved as a batsman's game more significantly in the past few years (when de Villiers is in his peak). So you can't take de Villiers' performance in his peak in these favorable conditions and compare it against Sachin's performance in his last few years.

The whole point of this discussion is ABD does give me a special vibe.. The vibe that was only matched by SRT.. I have seen others like Lara and Ponting but none of them matched that feeling..

In ABD, I can see the top tire attributes.. As I already mentioned earlier, let's not get carried away by patriotic sentiments and be honest only to Cricket.

 

[HippoSucks]

The whole point of this discussion is ABD does give me a special vibe.. The vibe that was only matched by SRT.. I have seen others like Lara and Ponting but none of them matched that feeling..

In ABD, I can see the top tire attributes.. As I already mentioned earlier, let's not get carried away by patriotic sentiments and be honest only to Cricket.

@ Bold I think I can say the same think about Lara, Ponting, Richards etc (about them facing more testing conditions).

But I do agree that de Villiers is a brilliant batsman and a definitive future ATG. But it is unfair to compare records as this stage, especially without adjusting for the changes in cricket over the years.

 

[Scrolln]

In ODI's he looks well set on his way to the SRT/Viv bracket and maybe even beyond.

In tests, he is great but not as jawdropping as he has been in ODI's....yet. In tests it would be difficult to surpass SRT, but if someone in this era can do it. Its ABDV.

 

[Jo_Don]

Its wrong to compare the last period of Tendulkar with the peak period of ABDV.At his best Tendulkar avgd closed to 60 and in 90s was one of two people to avg 50 with the bat.Tendulkar faced better bowlers than ABDV and while its not ABDVs fault but that surely has to be weighed in.

No one can deny that there is only one ATG bowler today and thats Steyn and ABDV doesnt has to face him.And an in form Johnson alone cannot negate the number of ATGs SRT faced.

True, but when we raise this issue then it always brings about that double-edged sword. How can we heap praise upon past bowlers given their favourable conditions, but not the current bowlers given their unfavourable conditions? Would McGrath, Donald, Ambrose and the W's have been as good in the current era, or would they have been hovering around the 30-average mark? Would current bowlers have been averaging in the low 20s had they played in the 90s?

Which is why these cross-era comparisons are always tricky. Nobody really knows the answers, and any conjecture is merely ifs and buts. The only true comparison is how one fares against their peers. It's exactly this comparison why Bradman is rated among the best ever.

One can't really say that Tendulkar is peerless. He had astonishing longevity sure, and some may say that in itself is peerless. But others might provide a valid argument in favour of his other peers.

The only current players IMO who are peerless are Steyn and AB (all formats considered). AB has stiff competition when you separate each format and look at them individually, but combined there is no current match. Steve Smith may possibly challenge him in years to come, but he still has a while to catch up. And the only one IMO who was a genuine threat to him was KP.

 

[TestMatch]

When I look at the players from last 40 years, Viv, Sachin, Ponting and ABD are the only four whom I consider as the "complete batsmen". By complete, I mean players who have performed equally well in both formats of the game. Players like Lara and Dravid were great in test only while Gangualy was great in ODI only.

Lara averaged 48 in ODIs in the 90s, and in the low 50s for two or three years; more than Tendulkar at the time. There was nothing "incomplete" about his ODI batting or ODI technique, the West Indies simply became a worthless ODI team and he moved down the order or was forced to quickly slog runs.

Viv was not a "complete" player. He'd easily average about 60 in tests if he wasn't such a entertainer and picked his battles more carefully. He also wasn't really tested by spin.

ABDV is a freak. He's a great T20, test and ODI player, but context has changed so much that it's impossible to compare him to other generations. He'd easily out-bat anyone from any generation, but were he a product of those generations, he would not have evolved into ADBV.

 

[kingusama92]

It's tough to compare the two. AB De Villiers is facing much easier bowling attacks in comparison to Sachin in his prime.

Sachin was remarkably destructive considering the bowlers he faced especially in his prime. The Tendulkar of the 90s was almost impossible to get out at times.

Nonetheless, when AB De Villiers gets going, he's truly something else and easily the most innovative batsman the game has ever seen. It's one thing to play crazy shots and another to execute them with ease.

 

[fringe playa]

Whilst it is true that AB didn't face any ATG bowlers and had luxuries such as field restrictions and flat pitches, I don't think Sachin could've matched his destructiveness in this era.

Likewise I don't think AB could play reverse scoops and all those innovative shots with such ease to Wasim,Waqar,Mcgrath etc.

Irrespective of which era they played, they were bound to succeed.For me,55-45 in favour of AB in ODIs (due to better slogging skills,running b/w wickets and fielding)

AB is infact the GREATEST odi player in my book.

In tests, however, it is 55-45 in favour of Sachin because AB IMO is on the same level as Ponting.
Infact I doubt many SA fans would rate AB as a better test batsman than Kallis (despite all his dynamism and talent).

We would be in a better position to compare the two once AB retires.

 

[fringe playa]

I would like to add one more thing.

He arguably might be the greatest batsman to play cricket, but at the same time is one of the biggest cowards around.

It is painful to accept but he is really scared of losing.You can almost see his trembling and nervousness in crunch situations.

Some of his tactis and decisions are downright atrocious.
Given his calibre, if he does not win a WC he has only himself to blame.

Glad he was not given Test captaincy.He should immediately step down as ODI captain as well.

 

[Chrish]

I would like to add one more thing.

He arguably might be the greatest batsman to play cricket, but at the same time is one of the biggest cowards around.

It is painful to accept but he is really scared of losing.You can almost see his trembling and nervousness in crunch situations.

Some of his tactis and decisions are downright atrocious.
Given his calibre, if he does not win a WC he has only himself to blame.

Glad he was not given Test captaincy.He should immediately step down as ODI captain as well.

We are solely discussing batsmanship and not the captainsy. That's a whole discussion altogether. Also SRT didn't do well as a captain as well.

 

[Chrish]

Lara averaged 48 in ODIs in the 90s, and in the low 50s for two or three years; more than Tendulkar at the time. There was nothing "incomplete" about his ODI batting or ODI technique, the West Indies simply became a worthless ODI team and he moved down the order or was forced to quickly slog runs.

Viv was not a "complete" player. He'd easily average about 60 in tests if he wasn't such a entertainer and picked his battles more carefully. He also wasn't really tested by spin.

ABDV is a freak. He's a great T20, test and ODI player, but context has changed so much that it's impossible to compare him to other generations. He'd easily out-bat anyone from any generation, but were he a product of those generations, he would not have evolved into ADBV.

I have seen Lara play and his style of playing was never meant for OdI format. He used to play really slow in the beginning then become more aggressive once get settled. This really don't work in OdI since you have to keep the scoreboard ticking from the beginning.

 

[fringe playa]

We are solely discussing batsmanship and not the captainsy. That's a whole discussion altogether. Also SRT didn't do well as a captain as well.

SRT never made tactial errors to the extent AB does which is saying something.

We were losing before he was captain and after he resigned.... till the Kolkata test which changed our cricket forever.

Again current SA XI is much better than Indian XI back then.

I think you are right.This a different topic and could derail the thread.Should not be discussed here.
I probably went with the flow.

 

[Tusker]

WC is not the only factor when we evaluate player's career. It's only a tiny drop in the sea.

Brilliant ... so I guess IPL is a more important factor than winning a knockout against arch rivals ? and I see someone already pooh-poohed the difficulty of facing Waz, Waqar, Imran, Shoaib, Saqlain, Asif, McGrath, Murali, Warne, Gillespie, Donald, Steyn, Polly, Ntini, Amby, Walsh, Bish, Hadlee, Bond, Flintoff, Swan, Anderson etc etc . It was a unique era that SRT played in where there were so many Bowling greats and he still stood out. AB does not have these obstacles.

 

[Slog]

I would like to add one more thing.

He arguably might be the greatest batsman to play cricket, but at the same time is one of the biggest cowards around.

It is painful to accept but he is really scared of losing.You can almost see his trembling and nervousness in crunch situations.

Some of his tactis and decisions are downright atrocious.
Given his calibre, if he does not win a WC he has only himself to blame.

Glad he was not given Test captaincy.He should immediately step down as ODI captain as well.

He is a great player and I would say again the most complete batsman I have ever seen and I say that with no bias.

But there have been too many crunch situations which I have seen where he has played a blinder and gotten SA to the finish line but then conjured upto do sth which ends up throwing away all his progress. Quite a few spectacular run outs I remember. Similar story in some tests.

Now others may call it bad luck or whatever but great players make their own luck and if it happens more than once or twice then I just see it as a case of him wilting under pressure.

He is a joy to watch but he has thrown it away too many times for him to be compared with legends like Sachin or Ponting as far as the modern era is concerned

 

[Bilal7]

People here are assuming that Viv is better than Tendulkar,well thats something i dont agree with.

Of course you don't.

ABD has the potential to end his career as one of the five best batsmen of all time. Whether or not he surpasses Sachin will be decided when he hangs up his boots.

 

[Enforcer]

AB is slightly better than sachin as of now, but his career is not over. Let see if can carry this pressure of expectations, like sachin did for 24 years. If he does , then he will definitely be considered better than sachin.

 

[Slog]

AB is slightly better than sachin as of now, but his career is not over. Let see if can carry this pressure of expectations, like sachin did for 24 years. If he does , then he will definitely be considered better than sachin.

if you are gonna base a decision on longevity no cricketer will get close to Sachin's longevity and for the most part have a high standard

i think if a cricketer from now on has a 15 year career at the top then that should be considered rare and legendary

days of 20 yr careers are gone

 

[Chrish]

Brilliant ... so I guess IPL is a more important factor than winning a knockout against arch rivals ? and I see someone already pooh-poohed the difficulty of facing Waz, Waqar, Imran, Shoaib, Saqlain, Asif, McGrath, Murali, Warne, Gillespie, Donald, Steyn, Polly, Ntini, Amby, Walsh, Bish, Hadlee, Bond, Flintoff, Swan, Anderson etc etc . It was a unique era that SRT played in where there were so many Bowling greats and he still stood out. AB does not have these obstacles.

I don't give a chit about what goes into Ipl or t20 in general. I only care for test and OdI format.. As for difficulty, I do feel bowling standards are lower currently which works in current batsman's favor

 

[Slog]

lmao i just saw on ci that ab scored a century today. no wonder this thread came up. Its a valid thread but was wondering why today. Now i have my answer it seems

 

[Slog]

I don't give a chit about what goes into Ipl or t20 in general. I only care for test and OdI format.. As for difficulty, I do feel bowling standards are lower currently which works in current batsman's favor

i think as far as you are comparing the individual worth of 2 players only test performances matter. Or performances in big odi tournies at best

 

[Enforcer]

if you are gonna base a decision on longevity no cricketer will get close to Sachin's longevity and for the most part have a high standard

i think if a cricketer from now on has a 15 year career at the top then that should be considered rare and legendary

days of 20 yr careers are gone

Nah a 15 years of career will do too! Look AB is incredible, but can he remain like this for the next 5 years or so? if he can , then i have no qualms in rating him better than tendulkar. But if he fails he will still remain great or ATG, but not better than tendulkar.

 

[Slog]

Nah a 15 years of career will do too! Look AB is incredible, but can he remain like this for the next 5 years or so? if he can , then i have no qualms in rating him better than tendulkar. But if he fails he will still remain great or ATG, but not better than tendulkar.

sounds fair.

though i personally think even 15 yr careers are a bit of a fantasy now.

if you look at it. very few players make their debuts in their teens now (if any). It is considered now that a player has made a young debut if he makes his int'l debut before he turns even 23. And its even rarer for players to be still playing intl cricket beyond 35-36.

I think now a 10-12 yr career should be considered a very long career if you manage to play at the top level in this time for the most part

 

[SL_Fan]

Utter dominance. Consistency. Impact. Adaptability. Flair. Ingenuity. Athleticism. AB has got it all. As I said in another thread we are most probably looking at a Don/Viv/Sobers sort of genius at play here. A game changer. Never seen any thing like AB of recent times. Defies the realm of possibilities. A modern day Viv Richards is the best I can put it.

 

[Enforcer]

sounds fair.

though i personally think even 15 yr careers are a bit of a fantasy now.

if you look at it. very few players make their debuts in their teens now (if any). It is considered now that a player has made a young debut if he makes his int'l debut before he turns even 23. And its even rarer for players to be still playing intl cricket beyond 35-36.

I think now a 10-12 yr career should be considered a very long career if you manage to play at the top level in this time for the most part

That is what separate a great from ATG. A great is some one who is outstanding but in a limited span of time , say only for 10-12 years max. Just like sehwag, a devastating player , but he is now past his sell by date even at the age of 33.

It is easy for batsman to piles records after records, when you are in 20s or early 30s, because one is super-fit during those years, with terrific hand and eye coordination, playing a huge role in one's success.

But after the age of 33, the real struggle start.

You have to be remain fit,though your body would not be as supportive.

You have to be constantly better than the youngsters, who will always try to grab your position.

You always have to prove your critics wrong, who would love to play the 'the age card', to pull you down

Then you have to change your batting approach constantly with the ever changing demand of the game.

If you able to do that, and still have a terrific average (say around 50), in ODIs and TEST, (may be with decent record in T20) then you will be termed as ATG in all forms. Phew! Not every one's cup of tea

 

[Chrish]

I think it's laughable to compare Abd directly with Bradman.. And also put Viv in the same bracket as Bradman/ sobers. You can rate Viv higher than SRT but let's not kid overselves here.. It's not by a high margin. If you think Viv was light years ahead of Tendu then it's nothing but an utter BS sentiment

 

[Bilal7]

^ Don't think more than a few cricketers have managed to keep performing after the age of 33. That has nothing to do with their ability but with the process of aging, which they have no control over.

 

[Itachi]

well.... if you want to compare abd with the god of cricket, then you need to set the standard to the utmost perfection.

has abd helped in the cause of RSA winning a world cup?

NO.

compare him with tendulkar when he does.

 

[SL_Fan]

Sachin's WC final scores - 4 & 18.

So let's not go there.

 

[Slog]

well.... if you want to compare abd with the god of cricket, then you need to set the standard to the utmost perfection.

has abd helped in the cause of RSA winning a world cup?

NO.

compare him with tendulkar when he does.

)

he had what 5 shots at it?

and his choking in the finals is for all too see

 

[SL_Fan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I know different eras and styles etc but how much better could mighty Viv have been than this AB? <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PepsiIPL?src=hash">#PepsiIPL</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/RCB?src=hash">#RCB</a></p>— Harsha Bhogle (@bhogleharsha) <a href="https://twitter.com/bhogleharsha/status/597369261351260161">May 10, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">What an innings by <a href="https://twitter.com/ABdeVilliers17">@ABdeVilliers17</a> as I said before best batter in world cricket!!</p>— David Warner (@davidwarner31) <a href="https://twitter.com/davidwarner31/status/597381916623376384">May 10, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Has anyone ever seen AB and superman in the same room? Didn't think so.</p>— Jimmy Neesham (@JimmyNeesh) <a href="https://twitter.com/JimmyNeesh/status/597369327109570560">May 10, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/KieronPollard55">@KieronPollard55</a> - you told me to put down my guns...but <a href="https://twitter.com/ABdeVilliers17">@ABdeVilliers17</a> had all the ammunitions! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ABDdaBanng?src=hash">#ABDdaBanng</a> <a href="http://t.co/dNVJ6kTNsb">pic.twitter.com/dNVJ6kTNsb</a></p>— Chris Gayle (@henrygayle) <a href="https://twitter.com/henrygayle/status/597420351509831681">May 10, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I'm writing an official complain as a bowler against <a href="https://twitter.com/ABdeVilliers17">@ABdeVilliers17</a>. All the bowers please join me <a href="https://twitter.com/IPL">@IPL</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/legend?src=hash">#legend</a></p>— Irfan Pathan (@IrfanPathan) <a href="https://twitter.com/IrfanPathan/status/597370396254416896">May 10, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">He's a freak! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AB?src=hash">#AB</a></p>— Chris Morris (@Tipo_Morris) <a href="https://twitter.com/Tipo_Morris/status/597365862580948992">May 10, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Buffet]

That is what separate a great from ATG. A great is some one who is outstanding but in a limited span of time , say only for 10-12 years max. Just like sehwag, a devastating player , but he is now past his sell by date even at the age of 33.

10-12 years at top is plenty. You can't use SRT as benchmark to come up with much longer years. SRT was a freak, who started at 16 with looking super comfortable at top level and still had it in him to be the best in world at 36. That's not normal even for greats if you take account of volume of cricket in the last 20-30 years. He was an exception.

Yah, in older era , we had players with longer periods occupying top spots but volume of cricket was less in 80s/70s/60s. It's taking it too far if we start using SRT's longevity to come up with benchmark for ATG and that's what you are implying with 15 years at top. Give me some names who we can count among the best for 15 years in the last few decades? They should be genuinely talked as being the best for 15 years and I not interested in looking at any stats here. All of us have fair idea about names who were talked as being among the best at different times. I am talking about getting counted in top 2-3 spots here and not being the number 1.

15 years at top level is stretching it if you want to use that as cut off for ATG with volume of cricket we have in the last few decades and it can actually increase going forward.

 

[Itachi]

)

he had what 5 shots at it?

and his choking in the finals is for all too see

read carefully what i wrote.

has abd helped in the cause of RSA winning a world cup?

it doesn't mean you have to perform in the final?

who can forget that innings against pak in sf under tremendous pressure situation?

abd has failed here. tendu may be fails in final.... but abd fails even before that.

and more importantly, abd has a habit of throwing his wicket away when the match is all set. unlike tendu who did put a price in wicket till the last ball he faces.

 

[SL_Fan]

You can say Aravinda and Arjuna helped SL win the WC. Or Smith helped Aus win the WC. Sachin hasn't helped India win a WC. Just getting to the final doesn't help the team win a WC. To win a WC you obviously have to win the WC final. And to help win the final you need to perform in the final.

 

[Enforcer]

10-12 years at top is plenty. You can't use SRT as benchmark to come up with much longer years. SRT was a freak, who started at 16 with looking super comfortable at top level and still had it in him to be the best in world at 36. That's not normal even for greats if you take account of volume of cricket in the last 20-30 years. He was an exception.

Yah, in older era , we had players with longer periods occupying top spots but volume of cricket was less in 80s/70s/60s. It's taking it too far if we start using SRT's longevity to come up with benchmark for ATG and that's what you are implying with 15 years at top. Give me some names who we can count among the best for 15 years in the last few decades? They should be genuinely talked as being the best for 15 years and I not interested in looking at any stats here. All of us have fair idea about names who were talked as being among the best at different times. I am talking about getting counted in top 2-3 spots here and not being the number 1.

15 years at top level is stretching it if you want to use that as cut off for ATG with volume of cricket we have in the last few decades and it can actually increase going forward.

Not saying 15 years at the top, but you should be good to play 15 years for your team, and should be good enough to be at top 3 for atleast 10 years. That is my criteria.

I have used sehwag's example, since he was not able to remain 15 years in his own team, (forget about scoring outside Asia). And henced he is not eligible for an ATG consideration.

 

[Chrish]

You can't determine player's value by WC performance alone.. Slogfest in T20 have no bearing on players personal worth as well IMO..

 

[Buffet]

Not saying 15 years at the top, but you should be good to play 15 years for your team, and should be good enough to be at top 3 for atleast 10 years. That is my criteria.

That sounds fair enough. I don't really use that kind of cut off but being counted among the top 3 for the 10 years is not too restrictive.

 

[Enforcer]

That sounds fair enough. I don't really use that kind of cut off but being counted among the top 3 for the 10 years is not too restrictive.

These are not the only criteria, just the minimum requirements for considering someone for ATG. Off course we need strict cut off since we are talking about ATG, and not merely Greats of the game.

 

[junaid.ahmed]

ABD is much better than any record obsessive player

 

[Chrish]

^ read the last line of my 1st post

 

[Abhilash93]

Both are the best of their generations. But I believe that all formats combined, the only comparison is Viv vs AB.

Tendulkar was among the most technically correct. Aggressive when need be, but you still had the feeling that he was playing within his limitations.

That was only post Tennis-elbow. You should have watched him batting in the 90s. No one who has watched him in the 90s would ever say that. Ask Barry Richards and Tony Greig

That's not AB's fault though. My criteria for greatness is that they would have been great in any era. AB certainly would have had the same skill in a previous era, that would not have changed. And he would have handled any type of bowler in the same manner, as we saw when Johnson was in the form of his life and ripping through batting line-ups. He's the only guy who Steyn has admitted to fearing bowling to.

The way ABD handled an in-form Johnson in that series, when all other SA batsmen were struggling, was such a treat to watch!

Its such a pity ABD was not born in an earlier era. We have been robbed of some great contests between the bat and ball. There are hardly any bowlers today who can pose a similar challenge to AB.

Tendulkar only recently retired, so yes while he did face some great bowlers, he also played in the current era. And in the current era, it's hard to say that he was significantly better than AB. His approach to the current bowlers was pretty much the same as his approach to past bowlers - one would expect him to have slaughtered the current lot of bowlers if they were so bad, yet he didn't really. Which I why I feel that he played within his limitations, whereas I feel that AB doesn't really have any except for him getting bored and getting himself out, mostly through ridiculous run-outs.

No!! SRT in the later half was quite tame compared to previous years. Many of my friends started hating him for that. They expected him to bat like the Sachin of yore in every match and were hugely dissapointed when he did not. I lowered my expectations to see a limited & relatively risk-free Sachin play.

True, but when we raise this issue then it always brings about that double-edged sword. How can we heap praise upon past bowlers given their favourable conditions, but not the current bowlers given their unfavourable conditions? Would McGrath, Donald, Ambrose and the W's have been as good in the current era, or would they have been hovering around the 30-average mark? Would current bowlers have been averaging in the low 20s had they played in the 90s?

Wasim/Waqar/Donald/Pollock/Mcgrath/Walsh/Ambrose would not hover around the 30-average mark in any era, let alone this one.


It becomes evidently clear once you look at the bowlers who have averaged below 30 in the last 10 years.
The above bowlers were vastly superior to these guys. Ask any neutral cricket expert.

 

[Abdullah]

A bit off topic-another chance to send a reminder to my Pakistani friends.

The legend that is ABD averaged 35 after about 30 test matches and similar after about 50 ODIs. So why do we start slating our youngsters after 1 average series??

Why are you so quick to judge. We have to be patient with the new guys and let them have a proper run. Have some damn patience!

On topic- It is hard to say!!

 

[TheNightWatchman]

AB devilliers smashing sixes on Darren Sami or Tendulkar smashing sixes on Flemming

 

[soso_killer]

while I don't want to be viewed as glorifying the glory days of yore, but it's easy to forget how good SRT was.
To average 40+ in every country with the bowlers he faced is nothing to be fluffed at.
I consider subcontinent players to be at a disadvantage when it comes to having to adapt to conditions not similar to the dust bowls: which is why not many Asian players come away averaging 40+ in SA, Eng, Aus, NZ combined. Yet Tendulkar conquered all over a long period as well which shows versatility of the man.
I would let AB finish his career before I pigeon hole him into a particular position.
At this rate he could end up in the top 3/5

 

[sivaji]

He is a great player and I would say again the most complete batsman I have ever seen and I say that with no bias.

But there have been too many crunch situations which I have seen where he has played a blinder and gotten SA to the finish line but then conjured upto do sth which ends up throwing away all his progress. Quite a few spectacular run outs I remember. Similar story in some tests.

Now others may call it bad luck or whatever but great players make their own luck and if it happens more than once or twice then I just see it as a case of him wilting under pressure.

He is a joy to watch but he has thrown it away too many times for him to be compared with legends like Sachin or Ponting as far as the modern era is concerned

like Sachin and POnting are known for finishing off a match. There has always been criticism of Sachin being not able to finish off a match off be it ODIs or Tests.. and in tests he has only one match winning test century in the 4th innings.

 

[Buffet]

while I don't want to be viewed as glorifying the glory days of yore, but it's easy to forget how good SRT was.
To average 40+ in every country with the bowlers he faced is nothing to be fluffed at.
I consider subcontinent players to be at a disadvantage when it comes to having to adapt to conditions not similar to the dust bowls: which is why not many Asian players come away averaging 40+ in SA, Eng, Aus, NZ combined. Yet Tendulkar conquered all over a long period as well which shows versatility of the man.
I would let AB finish his career before I pigeon hole him into a particular position.
At this rate he could end up in the top 3/5

Without getting into any stats, you have to admit that watching AB brings back the memories of SRT in full flow in 90s. Not talking about bowlers of 90s or AB's ability to play some ridiculous shots here but simply how you feel when watching both bat. I am not discounting stats etc here but we watch sports for fun as well. I agree that AB is still playing and has ways to go but AB does belong in the same class when it comes to talent and capturing the imaginations. I didn't see peak of Viv so can't talk about that.

 

[Enforcer]

Without getting into any stats, you have to admit that watching AB brings back the memories of SRT in full flow in 90s. Not talking about bowlers of 90s or AB's ability to play some ridiculous shots here but simply how you feel when watching both bat. I am not discounting stats etc here but we watch sports for fun as well. I agree that AB is still playing and has ways to go but AB does belong in the same class when it comes to talent and capturing the imaginations. I didn't see peak of Viv so can't talk about that.

Fully agreed on this..

 

[sivaji]

Anyways regarding the topic, every era has a player or two that stands head and shoulders above the rest. Viv did back in the days, Sobers before that, and Sachin and Lara after that. AB is the one now. For me, the best of each era would have been there with the best in any era. The players of their era called them the best and now AB's peers are calling him the best. That speaks for itself.

If ODI batting has become easier, then shouldn't Steyn ODI bowling average should be reconsidered? He is averaging something like 27 or something and without the rules or things like that or in the 90s he would have averaged 22 in ODIs too? I like it when people selectively use logic.

Sure batting in ODI has become easier which means teams are posting big scores.. but then it involved so much risks in getting to 400s. Batsmen need to take risks to aim to score 400 which in turns provide bowlers with chance to claim wickets. AB's ODI average is like 53 or something with strike rate nearing 100. If AB averages same as Sachin in this era, then you can claim Sachin is better due to the quality of runs, but AB's ODI record is astonishing and is the best in this era like how Sachin's was the best of his era.

The difference between them for me is how innovative and entertaining AB is. Sachin just scored more runs than his peers, AB just doesn't score more runs than his peers, he score them in a breath-taking, entertaining way.. like of magic.

Some points here: I'm always against this type of A vs B discussion. We had Sachin and Lara before and then Kallis and Ponting after... and there was a void which KP threatened to fill but it didn't happen. Then AB took the mantle and running away with it. So we are privileged that we all have someone to entertain us. There's no shame in being the best or 2nd best. They are all absolute legends. But what I fear is people belittling the achievements of each other.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Both are the best of their generations

/thread.

All that actually matters. Rest is stuff of fantasy.

 

[Bhaijaan]

I still remember that inning of 155 in 188 bowls against SA when India lost early wickets and Sachin was forced to play his natural game

Scintillating knock that. Best display of batsmanship by an Asian player abroad against a quality attack. Those upper cuts were bloody awesome! The modern day Tendulkar upper cut (that has now been copied by a few top batsmen) was invented right there.