Sachin Tendulkar vs AB de Villiers - The overall complete batsman?

[SL_Fan]

AB will end up ahead. It's inevitable.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

AB is a sublime cricketer. Incredibly attacking batsman with all the shots in the book. With every passing day in the last 2 to 3 years he has been getting closer and closer to Tendulkar and I think AB is now on a similar level to the peak Tendulkar. I would understand if someone ranked AB slightly above or vice versa. Tendulkar has so many records but I just wonder what could have been if he had the mindset of AB De Villers...India had the ability to win so much more but underachieved massively due to Sachin's thirst for records at the expense of teams overall success. Such a shame .

ABD at his best (now) is greater than SRT at his best in ODIs.

Same way Lara at his best was better than SRT at his best in Tests.

Right now, ABD is playing at a God mode (and not even a beast mode).

The thing that needs to be seen is how long he can sustain this (he doesn't have to play for 20 years). Sadly there are no tri series, tournaments these days which would tell us more about ODI players (taking in pressure and playing clutch knocks). All we have is WC and Champions Trophy occuring once in several years.

 

[Abhilash93]

You can't compare batsmen across two eras by directly comparing stats . Today a batsman like Gary Ballance averages 50. That would have been almost impossible in an earlier decade.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Wow?

Dude, you are either delusional or you're trying your best to come across as some agreeing Indian friend lol. Tendulkar at is best from 1996 to 2002 in ODIs is pretty much the highest any ODI player has ever peaked. Viv sometime somewhere but ABD never ever. He has numbers, he doesn't have big match performances to his name. Tendulkar was being hailed as second coming of Bradman back in those days, his peak was that impressive. This is when ESPN already included him in their legends list before he even crossed 30. LOL at Lara's peak, when did he peak in ODIs anyway?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Wow?

Dude, you are either delusional or you're trying your best to come across as some agreeing Indian friend lol. Tendulkar at is best from 1996 to 2002 in ODIs is pretty much the highest any ODI player has ever peaked. Viv sometime somewhere but ABD never ever. He has numbers, he doesn't have big match performances to his name. Tendulkar was being hailed as second coming of Bradman back in those days, his peak was that impressive. This is when ESPN already included him in their legends list before he even crossed 30. LOL at Lara's peak, when did he peak in ODIs anyway?

I never talked about Lara's peak in ODIs.

I also didn't say ABD was a better ODI bat than SRT cos SRT could maintain at just below level of peak for so many years.

LOL at calling me delusional for an opinion about a 50-50 topic.

Seriously its you who is being delusion here where you think ABD's peak is not comparable to SRT's peak.

Last 5 years, ABD averages 66 with 109 SR.
Last 4 years, ABD averages 69 with 111 SR.

Way ahead of the pack.

That does not automatically make him a better bat cos we need to see the whole career.

You really need to calm down. If you are going to accuse me of trying to agree to others to look good, you better come up with irrefutable proofs.

SRT averages 48 with 88 SR from 1996-2002.

The peaks are comparable (tracks have gone flatter but ABD is averaging 20 runs more with SR of 20 more for God's sake). If a comparison even after this is called delusions, I can only laugh.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Wow?

Dude, you are either delusional or you're trying your best to come across as some agreeing Indian friend lol. Tendulkar at is best from 1996 to 2002 in ODIs is pretty much the highest any ODI player has ever peaked. Viv sometime somewhere but ABD never ever. He has numbers, he doesn't have big match performances to his name. Tendulkar was being hailed as second coming of Bradman back in those days, his peak was that impressive. This is when ESPN already included him in their legends list before he even crossed 30. LOL at Lara's peak, when did he peak in ODIs anyway?

What? Sometimes somewhere?

Viv from 1979 to 1985 averaged 57 with 90 SR.

That's a freaking ultra solid slam bang dang peak and he won SRT in the same experts poll now by a countrymile.

 

[Stallion__]

Not yet.

Its like Sachin of early 2000s. AB's greatness is stamped by now, but where he is ranked among the greats, we can only argue once his career is over.

Talking about myself, no player whether a batsman or a bowler has ever given me that much pleasure with his artistry as AB does. There is some sort of magic in his gameplay.

He is just supreme against pacers and excellent against spinners as well. The best player of fast bowling and only Lara is at par with his spin playing prowess only. I have zero doubt that he would be a successful batsman in any era of cricket.

But all that isn't enough for the greatness. One must have performances to back his talent, which AB has produced till now. The more his plays from now on, the index of his achievements is going to increase.

Lets see whether he could surpass Sachin on that front or not.

 

[Haroon786]

What? Sometimes somewhere?

Viv from 1979 to 1985 averaged 57 with 90 SR.

That's a freaking ultra solid slam bang dang peak and he won SRT in the same experts poll now by a countrymile.

Ignore FC he trolls pretty much in all his posts, except when it comes to defending Sachin.

 

[Hawkeye]

ABD at his best (now) is greater than SRT at his best in ODIs.

Same way Lara at his best was better than SRT at his best in Tests.

Right now, ABD is playing at a God mode (and not even a beast mode).

The thing that needs to be seen is how long he can sustain this (he doesn't have to play for 20 years). Sadly there are no tri series, tournaments these days which would tell us more about ODI players (taking in pressure and playing clutch knocks). All we have is WC and Champions Trophy occuring once in several years.

And he has done good there, specially was amazing in the 2015 World Cup.

Plus take Haroon's advice and don't feed the troll.

 

[Tera Gawaandi]

TBH, I am not convinced by ABD's test batting credentials. He is very good, but he falls of short of other ATG's Test record in 1990s. Sachin averaged close to 60 after 100 Tests in different conditions with different bats against better bowling attacks. ABD never faced one of best bowling attack consiting of Steyn, Morkel and Philander bit like how Ponting escaped from McGrath's and Warne's wrath.

ABD is veteran of 98 Tests. He has 21 100s.

Sachin had 30 100s after 100 Tests, he averaged 50 for first 50 Tests and 66 for 50-100 tests.

Tendulkar between 1993 and 2002 was head and shoulders above all other batsmen in world cricket. He averaged 63 from 85 Tests during this period, the next-best, Steve Waugh, averaged 55. Lara was 50, Ponting 48.

Bump this thread when ABD dominates world batting for good 10 years.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

ABD vs SRT in tests is a no comparison IMHO.

Though ABD can save tests and play those ultra slow clutch knocks better than SRT, overall he ain't the better Test batsman.

ABD averages 52 in this easier era (with a peak of 63 in the last 5 years).

SRT on the other hand averaged 58 in a decade of tough bowlers, averaged 63 for almost 10 years (1993-2002) and till 2011, his average was 56 with balanced records everywhere.

Tests + ODI combo...honestly its a shootout between SRT and Viv only and I favour SRT for his domination of world cricket for a decade in his peak and an incredible longevity.

 

[WrexEverything]

I'd say if AB has another 3-4 good years in ODIs and manages to perform well at another world cup (not necessarily win it, as that's a silly criteria), I might consider him equal. He's already very close to Sachin even now. One of the top 5 best ever in ODIs along with Viv, Sachin, Bevan, etc.

In tests, I'm sorry, no contest. AB has a very very long way to go.

 

[WrexEverything]

Wow, that is simply delusional if you actually believe your first sentence . Also, if I didn't know that you are a certified troll, I would be surprised that AB is not in your top 10 ODI batsmen list. Clearly, you are insecure that people will rate him above Sachin due to his attacking nature and match winning ability. He is an absolutely devastating batsman and is the keystone to Sourh Africa's success in recent years. It's a shame that Sachin only cared for records as otherwise India may have seen similar success to AD's side.

It's a shame that Sachin only cared for records as otherwise India may have seen similar success to AD's side.

You're a trash poster and a troll. Infract me mods, I don't care. He's just openly trolling and I don't see him being called out.

If you're just sitting there making ridiculous statements like "India suffered because of Sachin's selfishness" and call anyone who points out your trash posting as "troll" or "delusional", you're the actual delusional one who doesn't realise what rubbish you're posting. Say ABdV is better and say why, even I have admitted AB is at Sachin's level already and very comparable to him. Don't expect to post nonsense and get away with it, sorry.

 

[Stallion__]

Yeah, he can catch up with Sachin in ODIs till next WC.

In tests, he may require another 4 years after next WC.

Problem with AB is, that as compared to Sachin, he started too late. By the age AB made a debut, Sachin has already become a monster at that age.

Secondly, AB used to follow Smith, Amla and Kallis in the batting order while Sachin was a lone ranger.

It took Sachin more time to develop as an ODI player hence for AB surpassing him in that format is easier.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The thing is AB hasnt had to face any great spinner and the only great fast bowler of his era is playing in his team.This will count againist him when compared to not only Sachin but Lara Ponting Dravid Kallis etc also.AB simply doesnt get to play high class bowling attacks like the previous generation did.

 

[WrexEverything]

The thing is AB hasnt had to face any great spinner and the only great fast bowler of his era is playing in his team.This will count againist him when compared to not only Sachin but Lara Ponting Dravid Kallis etc also.AB simply doesnt get to play high class bowling attacks like the previous generation did.

Mitchell Starc will go down as a definite ODI great when he retires. I back Boult to do the same.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

With all being said, I have to say ABD is the most versatile batsman in the history of the game.

He can play both like Viv and Dravid/Kallis.

No other player can play like him.

And he can even play like Gayle in T20s.

I can say with utmost conviction that I am super glad and honoured to have witnessed ABD batting live.

Simply a pleasure.

Magical batsman.

My Dad is a crazy fan of him.

 

[WrexEverything]

With all being said, I have to say ABD is the most versatile batsman in the history of the game.

He can play both like Viv and Dravid/Kallis.

No other player can play like him.

And he can even play like Gayle in T20s.

I can say with utmost conviction that I am super glad and honoured to have witnessed ABD batting live.

Simply a pleasure.

Magical batsman.

My Dad is a crazy fan of him.

Yeah I agree. I have never seen any batsman with so many gears in his batting. He can deadbat to save a test match, which he did in Adelaide, and also a couple of other times, and also scored the fastest hundred in ODI history. Seemingly at will he can shift his gears from 1 all the way up to 7. It is truly amazing.

In this way, he is ahead of Sachin by quite a distance. Ahead of any batsman in history I would say.

 

[Bhaijaan]

The way i see it, ABD first needs to be better than Virat Kohli. The superior ODI batsman in his own generation.

Then maybe challenge Ponting or Dhoni and then in the end just may be we could have a legitimate Tendulkar comparison.

 

[Bhaijaan]

The thing is AB hasnt had to face any great spinner and the only great fast bowler of his era is playing in his team.This will count againist him when compared to not only Sachin but Lara Ponting Dravid Kallis etc also.AB simply doesnt get to play high class bowling attacks like the previous generation did.

Pretty much.


ABD against Warne, Murali, Kumble, Mushtaq?

Careers have been turned on their heads after bad outings against these spinners.

 

[Stallion__]

^^^ It has to be a troll.

One can't be that much deluded!

 

[Enforcer]

With all being said, I have to say ABD is the most versatile batsman in the history of the game.

He can play both like Viv and Dravid/Kallis.

No other player can play like him.

And he can even play like Gayle in T20s.

I can say with utmost conviction that I am super glad and honoured to have witnessed ABD batting live.

Simply a pleasure.

Magical batsman.

My Dad is a crazy fan of him.

It is difficult to compare an opener to a finisher. In ODIs, Sachin's peak coincide to an era, where we didn't had any other batsman to rely on. During 1996-2000, sachin was our only hope, and since,he was our opener, the pressure on him was huge. Inspite of this pressure and knowing how important his wicket is, he still played with an S/R close to 90, during his peak, shows the 'greatness' of sachin.

Now ABDV has the Cushion of 'Amla' at the top. He has never experienced the pressure that sachin had undergone throughout his 'peak' period. Also if you compare the batting standards( S/R etc.) of 90's to that of today, there is a significant difference.

So, to me even, though ABDV is a better ODI batsman, sachin's peak may be was better than ABDV. If you compare sachin's stats during his peak period, with his peers( i.e. openers in 90's) and ABDV's stats with his peers( i.e. finishers), then perhaps we can arrive to a viable conclusion.

 

[WrexEverything]

The way i see it, ABD first needs to be better than Virat Kohli. The superior ODI batsman in his own generation.

Then maybe challenge Ponting or Dhoni and then in the end just may be we could have a legitimate Tendulkar comparison.

AB is way better than Kohli.

Kohli is a better chaser and sees chases all the way through from beginning to end, that's all. In all other facets of ODI batting, AB is far ahead.

 

[Scrolln]

ABDV is comfortably ahead of Kohli.

Kohli is second only to Amla in terms of big match bottling so far in his career.

Ridiculous averages in tournament finals and WC knockouts.

 

[Madplayer]

ABD wipes the floor with everyone

 

[Indian_Supporter]

ABDV is definitely better than Kohli. Kohli himself admitted that while playing together for RCB in IPL.

But comparing ABDV to SRT is stretching too far.

 

[Chrish]

Looking back, I feel extremely stupid for even starting a thread like this! Sigh.. Will just have to wait for 5 years before any valid conclusion can be drawn. End of 2020 will paint the correct picture about the batting/ bowling averages of this decade. Comparison right now is meaningless.

 

[IndianWillow]

There was no fifth gear in Sachin's time or even a fourth gear in Viv Richards' time. So you can't expect them to play like that if it was practically impossible in those times.

As for the 33 in 220 innings, I feel that it is very overrated. It was a great innings to secure a draw. du Plessis faced way more deliveries and scored a lot more runs (defending all the time requires a lot of patience, but defending and scoring some runs requires more skill in general). Now that particular knock doesn't give du Plessis an "advantage" over Sachin or Viv Richards just because they never played that type of innings. Also that innings was against Hilfenhaus, Siddle and Lyon. Such innings would be much more difficult against the more difficult bowling attacks that Sachin/Viv faced (and against weaker bowling attacks their teams didn't have to bat out for a draw at all).

The gear is relative to the era. By the standards of his day, Viv did bat in the fifth gear - a strike rate of 90 was fifth gear for his era. AB is almost batting like Viv did in the 80s, and Sachin wasn't the most destructive batsman of his era - there were others like Jayasuriya, Sehwag etc.

I rate that 33(220) really high. AB is a natural stroke maker and playing that innings required an extraordinary mental switch regardless of the opposition - and the opposition wasn't a minnow team by any stretch of imagination. Basically that is where AB showed that he could play in whatever manner he wants to - Kallis, Dravid like or Sachin, Lara, Viv like. His versatility is simply incredible. Faf is naturally a defensive player in test matches, so his knock wasn't very surprising compared to AB.

 

[IndianWillow]

The way i see it, ABD first needs to be better than Virat Kohli. The superior ODI batsman in his own generation.

Then maybe challenge Ponting or Dhoni and then in the end just may be we could have a legitimate Tendulkar comparison.

AB is clearly ahead of Kohli in ODIs. I thought the gap between them was not huge but Kohli's big time bottling during the WC has changed that. In tests, it is not even a comparison.

 

[cricketjoshila]

ABD wipes the floor with everyone

No he doesnt.Lara Tendulkar Ponting are all better who have scored runs againist better attacks and in tougher conditions.In tests even Kallis and Dravid have scored againist better attacks.

ABDV is the best batsman in the world today.No doubt.ATG material.But better than the likez of Lara Tendulkar Richards etc?Nopes.

 

[as-95]

ABD at his best (now) is greater than SRT at his best in ODIs.

Same way Lara at his best was better than SRT at his best in Tests.

Right now, ABD is playing at a God mode (and not even a beast mode).

The thing that needs to be seen is how long he can sustain this (he doesn't have to play for 20 years). Sadly there are no tri series, tournaments these days which would tell us more about ODI players (taking in pressure and playing clutch knocks). All we have is WC and Champions Trophy occuring once in several years.

Very fair assessment. Peak AB is indeed greater than peak Sachin in ODI's. Although AB is also a brilliant Test batsman, I would say that Sachin is better in Test's wheras AB is superior in ODI's. I also agree with your statement regarding peak Lara better than peak Sachin and AB in tests.

Nonetheless, AB is on a different level in ODI's and his form has been simply phenomenal in recent years. Despite the higher ODI peak, I also would like to see him continue this form for more time. He has been phenomenal for more than 5 years. Forget Tendulkar,no ODI batsman has performed like him over a decent sample size(5 years). Despite this, a few more years of similar performance would be excellent and I really hope this happens as he is such a treat to watch.

 

[as-95]

Wow?

Dude, you are either delusional or you're trying your best to come across as some agreeing Indian friend lol. Tendulkar at is best from 1996 to 2002 in ODIs is pretty much the highest any ODI player has ever peaked. Viv sometime somewhere but ABD never ever. He has numbers, he doesn't have big match performances to his name. Tendulkar was being hailed as second coming of Bradman back in those days, his peak was that impressive. This is when ESPN already included him in their legends list before he even crossed 30. LOL at Lara's peak, when did he peak in ODIs anyway?

You need to relax and take it easy FC. You are clearly getting worked up as you are reading things that aren't even there . Nobody mentioned Lara in ODI's... S-I-F states that peak Lara is superior to peak Sachin in tests. That is a fair assessment in my opinion as Lara was unmatched at his peak in Tests.

Regarding AB and Sachin, we are talking about peaks. Peak AB is superior to peak Sachin in ODI's. Sachin can only dream of
Playing at the speed AB does. If he tried to, his precious average would drop significantly. However, Sachin has performed at a very good level for many years. Although his peak is not comparable to peak AB, longetivity is in Sachims favour. Therefore, if AB can sustain this phenomenal form for a few more years, we could be able to call him the better OVERALL bat aswell as the batsman with a greater peak.

 

[aslaisnomasla]

No he doesnt.Lara Tendulkar Ponting are all better who have scored runs againist better attacks and in tougher conditions.In tests even Kallis and Dravid have scored againist better attacks.

ABDV is the best batsman in the world today.No doubt.ATG material.But better than the likez of Lara Tendulkar Richards etc?Nopes.

Ab aapko ponting Lara richards yaad aagayay jab sachinua ko defend karna padha.

 

[Madplayer]

No he doesnt.Lara Tendulkar Ponting are all better who have scored runs againist better attacks and in tougher conditions.In tests even Kallis and Dravid have scored againist better attacks.

ABDV is the best batsman in the world today.No doubt.ATG material.But better than the likez of Lara Tendulkar Richards etc?Nopes.

Srt is like the definition of Orthodox cricket. I would give him that. He is an ATG i would give him that too. And If we talk about peaks in all forms of the game, it extremely difficult to beat ponting .
ABD ,Especially in ODIs , is killing everything in sight. Even if i agree with you for a moment that ABD has not surpassed him or ponting or lara as yet, i dont see any reason why he shouldn't be rated ahead of these guys if he continues to bat like this for 3-4 more years.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Srt is like the definition of Orthodox cricket. I would give him that. He is an ATG i would give him that too. And If we talk about peaks in all forms of the game, it extremely difficult to beat ponting .
ABD ,Especially in ODIs , is killing everything in sight. Even if i agree with you for a moment that ABD has not surpassed him or ponting or lara as yet, i dont see any reason why he shouldn't be rated ahead of these guys if he continues to bat like this for 3-4 more years.

Again its the question of the bowlers he has scored runs againist.Who is the ATG spinner or Pacer he has faced?We all know the ones the batsmen from 90s faced.Dont you think thats important?

Secondly there is a big difference in the way powerplays were structured in 90s.Plus the matter of reverse swing.Big difference in regards to what happens today.How many batsmen avg 50 with a SR of 85 plus since 2007?And how many did before that?

You have to take in the opposition the rules etc before you compare players.And players have to be compared over their careers.

 

[Madplayer]

Again its the question of the bowlers he has scored runs againist.Who is the ATG spinner or Pacer he has faced?We all know the ones the batsmen from 90s faced.Dont you think thats important?

Secondly there is a big difference in the way powerplays were structured in 90s.Plus the matter of reverse swing.Big difference in regards to what happens today.How many batsmen avg 50 with a SR of 85 plus since 2007?And how many did before that?

You have to take in the opposition the rules etc before you compare players.And players have to be compared over their careers.

AB has faced ajmal in top form (remove the chucker tag and he is one of the all time best ODI bowlers) . he has faced michel johnson when he was running through lines ups (not today's johnson) and he looked very comfortable against him. He has faced anderson and broad as well as swann.
You can only face whats put infront of you. Tendulkar struggled against ajmal although he was old by the time he faced ajmal.

 

[cricketjoshila]

AB has faced ajmal in top form (remove the chucker tag and he is one of the all time best ODI bowlers) . he has faced michel johnson when he was running through lines ups (not today's johnson) and he looked very comfortable against him. He has faced anderson and broad as well as swann.
You can only face whats put infront of you. Tendulkar struggled against ajmal although he was old by the time he faced ajmal.

Tendulkar faced Warne Murali and Saqlain.Also the likes of Mushy and Mcgill.

He also faced Mcgrath Donald Ambrose Walsh Pollock Ntini Mcdermott Hughes Akhtar Lee Gillespie Gough Bishop Vaas and Steyn.He also faced Wasim and Waqar in ODIs throughout the 90s.

Most batsman of 90s faced this kind of attack.

There is no test bowler in world today except Steyn who can match of to the ATGs in that list.

Also Ajmal when chucking was perhaps the only class spinner in the world.How many innings has AB played againist them?

Compare that to Sachins destruction of Warne and Murali.Or his century againist Saqi Wasim and Waqar in Chennai.Or Laras 600 plus runs againist Murali in a series.Or Dravids 180 vs Mcgrath Warne Gillespie in Kolkata. Or Tendulkars 120 vs Mcdermott and Hughes on a green Perth wicket in 1992.Or Laras 153 vs Australia.And i can go on and on.

Tendulkar Lara and co. have played quality innings a number of times againist great attacks.ABDV hasnt.

PS:Just checked.Tendulkar scored 84 and 52 the two times he faced Ajmal.

 

[Buffet]

Yeah, he can catch up with Sachin in ODIs till next WC.

In tests, he may require another 4 years after next WC.

Problem with AB is, that as compared to Sachin, he started too late. By the age AB made a debut, Sachin has already become a monster at that age.

Secondly, AB used to follow Smith, Amla and Kallis in the batting order while Sachin was a lone ranger.

It took Sachin more time to develop as an ODI player hence for AB surpassing him in that format is easier.

By that benchmark, it will be tough for anyone to surpass SRT but AB did debut very early. AB was only 20 years old when he debuted against England. That's very young and not many batsmen debut at 20 years of age even if you consider Asian teams.

AB was not really among the top batsmen in his first 3-4 years. AB matured and became very good in his mid 20s. He has been a top performer after he turned 25 and he has many years to go. Comments are just for the bold part.

-------

I personally think that AB is in the same class as Viv and SRT but doesn't have a career record to get bracketed with them right now. Another 5-6 years and he may be there and even surpass them in ODI. In test format, I don't think that he is going to surpass Viv/SRT.

With all said and done, when AB bats then I get the same feeling as watching SRT bat in the late 90s in ODI. I am talking about the anticipation of great batting display. You don't have to be a fan of any specific country to enjoy that kind of batting. I didn't see Viv bat in full flow but based on what I have read, that would have been a great sight.

 

[WrexEverything]

I think the way AB batted against Mitchell Johnson in that series in 2013/14 cemented him as ATG in my eyes. In that form, Mitch was unstoppable... was bowling as well as anyone has in history, and AB was the only guy who looked comfortable against him.

 

[Stallion__]

By that benchmark, it will be tough for anyone to surpass SRT

Precisely. Thats why it is tough for anyone to surpass him. Not many have done so.

Sachin beats many other ATGs for his longevity which shouldn't be under-estimated.

Anyways, if a player manages a clearly better peak than Sachin, he don't need to match Sachin's longevity. AB in tests don't have much better peak than Sachin so its tough for him to surpass him in that format.

 

[Buffet]

The way i see it, ABD first needs to be better than Virat Kohli. The superior ODI batsman in his own generation.

Then maybe challenge Ponting or Dhoni and then in the end just may be we could have a legitimate Tendulkar comparison.

Dhoni and Ponting have a longer track record of doing well but Kohli? You must be kidding here.

 

[Madplayer]

Tendulkar faced Warne Murali and Saqlain.Also the likes of Mushy and Mcgill.

He also faced Mcgrath Donald Ambrose Walsh Pollock Ntini Mcdermott Hughes Akhtar Lee Gillespie Gough Bishop Vaas and Steyn.He also faced Wasim and Waqar in ODIs throughout the 90s.

Most batsman of 90s faced this kind of attack.

There is no test bowler in world today except Steyn who can match of to the ATGs in that list.

Also Ajmal when chucking was perhaps the only class spinner in the world.How many innings has AB played againist them?

Compare that to Sachins destruction of Warne and Murali.Or his century againist Saqi Wasim and Waqar in Chennai.Or Laras 600 plus runs againist Murali in a series.Or Dravids 180 vs Mcgrath Warne Gillespie in Kolkata. Or Tendulkars 120 vs Mcdermott and Hughes on a green Perth wicket in 1992.Or Laras 153 vs Australia.And i can go on and on.

Tendulkar Lara and co. have played quality innings a number of times againist great attacks.ABDV hasnt.

PS:Just checked.Tendulkar scored 84 and 52 the two times he faced Ajmal.

Like i said you can only face whats put infront of you.

Spinners that AB faced : ajmal, hafeez (one of the best ODI spinners of this era) , swann, afridi (at his peak) , herath, mendis, narine etc

Fast bowlers : johnson, anderson, ryan haris, irfan, wahab, roach, broad etc. He even smashed steyn in IPL. (Quality in fast bowling isnt that great i admit)

But can you put it on AB that this era doesnt have great fast bowlers?
He averages like 66 in last 2 years at a strike rate of 108. How much would have tendulkar or ponting or lara averaged in their peaks if they played in todays era? Surely not more than that.

 

[Chrish]

Like i said you can only face whats put infront of you.

Spinners that AB faced : ajmal, hafeez (one of the best ODI spinners of this era) , swann, afridi (at his peak) , herath, mendis, narine etc

Fast bowlers : johnson, anderson, ryan haris, irfan, wahab, roach, broad etc. He even smashed steyn in IPL. (Quality in fast bowling isnt that great i admit)

But can you put it on AB that this era doesnt have great fast bowlers?
He averages like 66 in last 2 years at a strike rate of 108. How much would have tendulkar or ponting or lara averaged in their peaks if they played in todays era? Surely not more than that.

And how exactly do you know what ponting and sachin would have achieved in the era of batting powerplay and free hits? One can easily argue sachin would have score at least 3 more double tons given his first 200 came when he had passed his peak.. I can't even imagine what he could have achieved with these rules in 90s.

 

[soso_killer]

IMHO there is no GREAT ODI batsmen except for Viv (AB is within a shout).
If you look at averages in difficult batting conditions (SA, AUS, NZ, ENG) against home nations not many come with an average of at least 40 SR 80. This tells me player in ODI's is far ahead of the rest. When talking of "peaks" we can't come up with irrelevant stats as certain conditions are tougher than others.

Tests are a different matter all together though. While some rate Tendulkar the ODI player very highly (I don't), I rate Tendulkar the test bat.
As for AB I don't even rate him higher than Smith, Amla and Kallis as far as test batting is concerned nevermind SRT. AB the ODI bat however I rate him high up the list.
Ironically both are not my favourite test bats, a topic for another thread though.

 

[Sachin136]

Like i said you can only face whats put infront of you.

Spinners that AB faced : ajmal, hafeez (one of the best ODI spinners of this era) , swann, afridi (at his peak) , herath, mendis, narine etc

Fast bowlers : johnson, anderson, ryan haris, irfan, wahab, roach, broad etc. He even smashed steyn in IPL. (Quality in fast bowling isnt that great i admit)

But can you put it on AB that this era doesnt have great fast bowlers?
He averages like 66 in last 2 years at a strike rate of 108. How much would have tendulkar or ponting or lara averaged in their peaks if they played in todays era? Surely not more than that.

How do you come to the conclusion that Sachin or Viv Richards couldn't have achieved more in this era?

And Hafeez, Afridi, Roach, Irfan should be counted as good bowlers that de Villiers faced? Seriously?

 

[IndianWillow]

Sachin hit a peak between 1997-2000 and his performance during that period ranks among the best in history. But apart from this peak, Sachin maintained an 80% form for most of his career, which is why he is regarded among the best ever. IMO, Sachin's peak has been bettered by many batsmen for short and medium periods of time. But very few have come close to beating his 20 year old consistency. To become better than Sachin, a batsman will have to do better than him over a sustained period (like 15 years) or significantly better his peak for 5-6 years. Lara and Ponting beat Sachin comfortably at their peaks, but did not beat him over their entire careers. AB has also bettered Sachin's peak but will have to keep up the same form for another 3-4 years to equal or beat Sachin.

Even in ODIs where Sachin is regarded among the best ever, and inspite of his glorious overall record in the 90s, Sachin did not do that well overseas in ODIs. All he managed outside Asia all through the 90s in non-neutral territory was a single hundred against Zimbabwe inspite of being an opener between 1994-2000. So all talks of Sachin facing the best bowlers in the 1990s (when he could not get a single hundred outside Asia in 50+ matches against those feared bowlers) are moot. AB will surpass Sachin if he keeps going for another three or four years.

 

[Madplayer]

How do you come to the conclusion that Sachin or Viv Richards couldn't have achieved more in this era?

And Hafeez, Afridi, Roach, Irfan should be counted as good bowlers that de Villiers faced? Seriously?

How much do u think viv or tendu would have averaged today? 100? We tend to over rate the past players as a part of our tradition. Past is always glorious.

Hafeez has an economy rate of under 4 in this era. You dont think thats good? AB is the only player who absolutely smashed him in SA and even UAE.
Afridi at his peak was a very good bowler and for your kind information he has got AB out more than 12 times but having actually watched the matches,i can safely say AB had the upper hand.
Roach , well he is ok, and i didnt have many names to mention so ...
Irfan was a very deadly bowler 2 years ago. He got amla out 7 times i think. He averages in the 20s with the ball. AB didnt seem to be troubled by his bounce and pace. Same for wahab. AB used to thrash him while he bowled at 145+ speed.

Again dont complain about the quality of attack AB faced. He cant help it.

 

[Buffet]

Tests are a different matter all together though. While some rate Tendulkar the ODI player very highly (I don't), I rate Tendulkar the test bat.

As for AB I don't even rate him higher than Smith, Amla and Kallis as far as test batting is concerned nevermind SRT. AB the ODI bat however I rate him high up the list.
Ironically both are not my favourite test bats, a topic for another thread though.

Not disputing much here but I feel AB has time to finish ahead of Smith and Amla but he does need to do very well in the next 4-5 years in the test format. Not much separates Amla and AB right now. Smith is ahead but AB has more time. I don't think that AB can finish ahead of Kallis though.

 

[Sachin136]

Sachin hit a peak between 1997-2000 and his performance during that period ranks among the best in history. But apart from this peak, Sachin maintained an 80% form for most of his career, which is why he is regarded among the best ever. IMO, Sachin's peak has been bettered by many batsmen for short and medium periods of time. But very few have come close to beating his 20 year old consistency. To become better than Sachin, a batsman will have to do better than him over a sustained period (like 15 years) or significantly better his peak for 5-6 years. Lara and Ponting beat Sachin comfortably at their peaks, but did not beat him over their entire careers. AB has also bettered Sachin's peak but will have to keep up the same form for another 3-4 years to equal or beat Sachin.

Even in ODIs where Sachin is regarded among the best ever, and inspite of his glorious overall record in the 90s, Sachin did not do that well overseas in ODIs. All he managed outside Asia all through the 90s in non-neutral territory was a single hundred against Zimbabwe inspite of being an opener between 1994-2000. So all talks of Sachin facing the best bowlers in the 1990s (when he could not get a single hundred outside Asia in 50+ matches against those feared bowlers) are moot. AB will surpass Sachin if he keeps going for another three or four years.

But the quality of bowlers even in the 2000s is still much higher than this decade.

 

[Executioner]

honestly, i am not a big fan of comparing eras.

SRT faced better bowlers, field settings suited the bowlers

ABDV had to deal with 3 formats and a huge amount of cricket.

They played for different teams combination and different conditions.

You see, cricket is not any other sport. The game is dynamic. It changes so rapidly with time, with changes in mindset, new format, T20 leagues, improvement in technology, and what not! And unlike other sport, conditions affect the games more seriously than any other sport. You have dust bowls in India and UAE while flat tracks in SL, BD, bouncy wickets in Aus, SA and prodigous swing in NZ, England. Different boundary sides too if you want to take that into account.

The best comparison you can make, is two batsman, who played together under similar circumstances and similar conditions. No use of making hypothetical scenarios because you can never come to a conclusion. The only way you can come to a proper conclusions is when someone has done far far better than his counterparts, which would be the case with for say, Sir Donald Bradman in tests. Tendulkar exceptional, in my opinion a true ATG, you cannot compare him with someone like ABDV, or even Kohli for that matter. There is no winner here, there never will be and cricket doesn't need to have any proof of who is the better cricket of the two and such. This is a sport and everyone has had their contribution to their team, country and sport too.

 

[WC-Passion]

ABDV is an amazing batsmen but he has no ATG bowlers to go against so we will never know.

 

[Buffet]

ABDV had to deal with 3 formats and a huge amount of cricket.

It will be pretty much the same for both batsmen when it comes to amount of cricket each year. Only difference would be SRT played around twice but AB is still playing.

SRT in 24 years - 200 Tests , 463 ODIs -- 1463 full days of cricket

AB in 11-12 years - 98 Tests, 187 ODIs, 59 T-20 -- 677 full days of cricket and 59 T-20

 

[cricketjoshila]

Like i said you can only face whats put infront of you.

I agree.

Spinners that AB faced : ajmal, hafeez (one of the best ODI spinners of this era) , swann, afridi (at his peak) , herath, mendis, narine etc

You seriously believe they are equal to the likes of Qadir/Mushy/Warne/Murali/Saqi?There is a huge huge gulf in quality.

Fast bowlers : johnson, anderson, ryan haris, irfan, wahab, roach, broad etc. He even smashed steyn in IPL. (Quality in fast bowling isnt that great i admit)

Thanks for the admittance.

But can you put it on AB that this era doesnt have great fast bowlers?
He averages like 66 in last 2 years at a strike rate of 108.

Thats why his stats have to be taken with a pinch of salt.Do you think he would be doing the same that he does now to a 2Ws yorker?Or the seam and accuracy of Mcgrath?

How much would have tendulkar or ponting or lara averaged in their peaks if they played in todays era? Surely not more than that.

Tendulkar managed and avg of close to 45 with a SR of 86-87 over his career despite playing the peak of his career in an era of tougher rules and bowlers.Tendulkar managed the 1st 200 in ODIs way past his peak and againist Steyn/Morkel and co.So you can imagine how good he would have been on his peak and if he had got lesser bowlers and easier rules.

 

[cricketjoshila]

IMHO there is no GREAT ODI batsmen except for Viv (AB is within a shout).
If you look at averages in difficult batting conditions (SA, AUS, NZ, ENG) against home nations not many come with an average of at least 40 SR 80. This tells me player in ODI's is far ahead of the rest. When talking of "peaks" we can't come up with irrelevant stats as certain conditions are tougher than others.

See its difficult to say which pitch is difficult,because while a slow spinning pitch will be easy for SC batsmen it will be difficult for non SC batsmen.So you cat say SA/AUS/NZ/ENG are difficult places to bat on.

Tests are a different matter all together though. While some rate Tendulkar the ODI player very highly (I don't), I rate Tendulkar the test bat.
As for AB I don't even rate him higher than Smith, Amla and Kallis as far as test batting is concerned nevermind SRT. AB the ODI bat however I rate him high up the list.
Ironically both are not my favourite test bats, a topic for another thread though.

I will tell you something.I classify certain cricketers as beyond ATGs.I call them geniuses.Players who defy logic.In the players i have watched i classify Viv,Lara,Tendulkar,Warne and Wasim as geniuses.

What ABDV displays in ODI cricket is close to that genius.But the problem i have is to decide whether that display is more due to easier rules,lesser bowlers etc or due to the sheer ability of the man.The second thing is that all those players i mentioned,displayed their skills irrespective of the format,ABDV hasnt displayed that kind of skills in Tests regularly.

 

[Chrish]

See its difficult to say which pitch is difficult,because while a slow spinning pitch will be easy for SC batsmen it will be difficult for non SC batsmen.So you cat say SA/AUS/NZ/ENG are difficult places to bat on.



I will tell you something.I classify certain cricketers as beyond ATGs.I call them geniuses.Players who defy logic.In the players i have watched i classify Viv,Lara,Tendulkar,Warne and Wasim as geniuses.

What ABDV displays in ODI cricket is close to that genius.But the problem i have is to decide whether that display is more due to easier rules,lesser bowlers etc or due to the sheer ability of the man.The second thing is that all those players i mentioned,displayed their skills irrespective of the format,ABDV hasnt displayed that kind of skills in Tests regularly.

Why warne was genius? Not disputing your view but curious about reasoning..

 

[cricketjoshila]

Why warne was genius? Not disputing your view but curious about reasoning..

The same reason why Wasim or Sachin or Viv are.Amazing ability to turn a game and do things that defy common beliefs.

 

[Abdullah719]

So a question for the people who are claiming that AB has had it easy due to the lack of ATG bowlers; how much would it take, for him to do in this era, to be considered a great? Or is it just that no matter what he does, he won't get the same recognition for you guys because he simply wasn't born 15-20 years ago? Because if averaging 70 at a SR of 112 clearly is not good enough, then I'm not sure what will suffice.

 

[Chrish]

Bevan remains the best ODI batsman I have seen and I have been following Cricket since 90s..

 

[cricketjoshila]

So a question for the people who are claiming that AB has had it easy due to the lack of ATG bowlers; how much would it take, for him to do in this era, to be considered a great? Or is it just that no matter what he does, he won't get the same recognition for you guys because he simply wasn't born 15-20 years ago? Because if averaging 70 at a SR of 112 clearly is not good enough, then I'm not sure what will suffice.

He avgs 52 with sr of 99.Some of his other peers also avg 50 plus with SR of 90 or so.

 

[Abdullah719]

He avgs 52 with sr of 99.Some of his other peers also avg 50 plus with SR of 90 or so.

Last 4 years averaging 70 with a SR of 112. For comparison, Kohli has been excellent in this period too; averages 55 with a SR of 94. There's a clear gulf in quality. Even if you relax it to last 7 years, he's still coming in at 64/105. Far ahead of the rest.

 

[ChachaCricket]

De Villiers is comfortably better in ODIs, still behind in tests.

The decline in bowling quality would be a valid argument if he struggled against any type of bowling. How many batsmen from the past would be able to face a rampant Johnson on a bouncy pitch with as much ease as De Villiers?

He's just been too dominant. Though I can understand why biased Indians will find it hard to accept.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Last 4 years averaging 70 with a SR of 112. For comparison, Kohli has been excellent in this period too; averages 55 with a SR of 94. There's a clear gulf in quality. Even if you relax it to last 7 years, he's still coming in at 64/105. Far ahead of the rest.

No one says he isnt the best batsman in the game today.

You cannot pick and choose years like that.You have to look at his entire career.

Do you know how much he avgd from his debut till 2008 when the likes of Mcgrath and co. were still playing.When the likes of Lee and Akhtar and Murali still had some gas left in their tank?When the field restrictions werent as lax.

Do you know what ODI rules were changed from 1st october 2008?And then the batting avgs have shot up like a rocket since 2009.

Any reason why his career avg in ODIs took off from 2009?Co incidence ?

 

[cricketjoshila]

De Villiers is comfortably better in ODIs, still behind in tests.

The decline in bowling quality would be a valid argument if he struggled against any type of bowling. How many batsmen from the past would be able to face a rampant Johnson on a bouncy pitch with as much ease as De Villiers?

He's just been too dominant. Though I can understand why biased Indians will find it hard to accept.

Whether he would have struggled or not would have been decided if he had faced a bowler of that calibre.If anyone believes that Johnson is an ATG,well good luck.

ABDV is behind SRT/Ponting/Lara and if you add tests even Dravid and Kallis are better.

 

[ChachaCricket]

Whether he would have struggled or not would have been decided if he had faced a bowler of that calibre.If anyone believes that Johnson is an ATG,well good luck.

ABDV is behind SRT/Ponting/Lara and if you add tests even Dravid and Kallis are better.

A rampant Johnson is better than most ATG bowlers. Like I said, it's understandable why biased Indians will find it hard to accept AB's dominance.

 

[cricketjoshila]

A rampant Johnson is better than most ATG bowlers. Like I said, it's understandable why biased Indians will find it hard to accept AB's dominance.

That statement is rubbish.And even if we accept that,how many matches have ABDV played versus a so called rampant Johnson?

1 test series in 2013.Warner and Smith avgd more than ABDV in that series facing Steyn/Morkel and Philander.

And since you are so insistent on bringing nationalities,i can say that its understandable that Pakistanis are trying their hard to put SRT down.

 

[Abdullah719]

No one says he isnt the best batsman in the game today.

You cannot pick and choose years like that.You have to look at his entire career.

Do you know how much he avgd from his debut till 2008 when the likes of Mcgrath and co. were still playing.When the likes of Lee and Akhtar and Murali still had some gas left in their tank?When the field restrictions werent as lax.

Do you know what ODI rules were changed from 1st october 2008?And then the batting avgs have shot up like a rocket since 2009.

Any reason why his career avg in ODIs took off from 2009?Co incidence ?

It didn't. It was slowly improving. I needn't remind you that Sachin's average only hit 40 once he had played 110 ODIs. AB too reached that mark after 95 ODIs. Care to explain why no other batsman comes close to him during this period? Are the likes of Kohli and Dhoni absolutely of no use then, since the bowling and fielding restrictions recently make it VERY easy for the batsmen?

 

[cricketjoshila]

It didn't. It was slowly improving. I needn't remind you that Sachin's average only hit 40 once he had played 110 ODIs. AB too reached that mark after 95 ODIs. Care to explain why no other batsman comes close to him during this period? Are the likes of Kohli and Dhoni absolutely of no use then, since the bowling and fielding restrictions recently make it VERY easy for the batsmen?

You do know that Tendulkar used to play at no.6 or 7 in ODIs till about his 74-75 ODI.

Kohli and Dhoni are good,but certainly i wont rate them ahead of Laras and Pontings of the world because they have a higher avg and SR in a era devoid of ATG bowlers.

Again i ask you,do you know what new rules were introduced since Oct 2008 post which ABDV's avg shot up?And do you think its a coincidence?

Just FYI

Till 2008 dec ABDV avgd 36 with the bat.Post that he avgs as you said.

 

[Chrish]

It didn't. It was slowly improving. I needn't remind you that Sachin's average only hit 40 once he had played 110 ODIs. AB too reached that mark after 95 ODIs. Care to explain why no other batsman comes close to him during this period? Are the likes of Kohli and Dhoni absolutely of no use then, since the bowling and fielding restrictions recently make it VERY easy for the batsmen?

You are delusional if you think new OdI rules aren't responsible for inflated averages.. Tell me Anwars 194 for was unbroken for how long? Then tell me why all of a sudden dudes have started scoring 200 from every corner in past few years? How often do we see scoreboards of 350+ Nowadays? Common dude it's a freaking common sense!!! If you think ABD or any other player for that matter would have averaged anywhere close to 70 in 90s, you need to be put in multiple antipsychotics

 

[Square Drive]

LOL [MENTION=43028]K[/MENTION]ohli being better than AB.

 

[ChachaCricket]

That statement is rubbish.

Johnson's in those 8 tests displayed one of the most dominating performances we've seen in cricketing history. He averaged around 15-16, can't remember correctly. Most ATG bowlers would struggle to replicate such dominance.

 

[Abdullah719]

You do know that Tendulkar used to play at no.6 or 7 in ODIs till about his 74-75 ODI.

Kohli and Dhoni are good,but certainly i wont rate them ahead of Laras and Pontings of the world because they have a higher avg and SR in a era devoid of ATG bowlers.

Again i ask you,do you know what new rules were introduced since Oct 2008 post which ABDV's avg shot up?And do you think its a coincidence?

Just FYI

Till 2008 dec ABDV avgd 36 with the bat.Post that he avgs as you said.

And in his first 100 or so matches, AB played around 40 out of position as an opener.

He had two bad years. 2005 and 2008. In 2007 (a WC year), he averaged 45 at 92. This includes a 92 against eventual World Champions, Australia. No new rules in 2007, I presume.

 

[Abdullah719]

You are delusional if you think new OdI rules aren't responsible for inflated averages.. Tell me Anwars 194 for was unbroken for how long? Then tell me why all of a sudden dudes have started scoring 200 from every corner in past few years? How often do we see scoreboards of 350+ Nowadays? Common dude it's a freaking common sense!!! If you think ABD or any other player for that matter would have averaged anywhere close to 70 in 90s, you need to be put in multiple antipsychotics

No need to be so rude. We aren't having a fistfight.

Just please tell me why no one else comes close to him.

I don't deal in 'would haves' or 'ifs' so let's deal with what we have.

Definitely not saying that the new rules haven't helped, but to say that it's the only reason for someone's improvement is a bit OTT.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Several batsmen have bettered SRT's peak but none of them have come close to match his consistency. Out of his 24 years in international cricket, he maintained a top class performance in 20 of them. Till 2011 he was among the top batsmen going around.

Cook was talked about as the next Tendulkar in 2011 when he reached his peak but look at his state now. Only Kallis came close but only in tests, nowhere near Tendulkar in ODI's.

For a player to dominate both formats and be among top bats in both for 20+ years is no mean feat. AB is doing that now and I enjoy watching him more than Tendulkar tbh but unless he does it for at least 4-5 years more, he will have fallen short.

However one has to say in the current gen of bats, only AB has seemed like a batsman who can match SRT/Viv's calibre. Hopefully his peak doesn't end sharply like Pontings did, because at one time it seemed like he'd race past Tendulkar in a flash.

 

[ChachaCricket]

^Sensible post by [MENTION=95101]Cricfan4eva[/MENTION].

 

[cricketjoshila]

And in his first 100 or so matches, AB played around 40 out of position as an opener.

He had two bad years. 2005 and 2008. In 2007 (a WC year), he averaged 45 at 92. This includes a 92 against eventual World Champions, Australia. No new rules in 2007, I presume.

From 2005 to 2008 for 4 years he avgd 36 in ODIs.

From 2008 OCT when new rules came and extra powerplays were introduced,ball was mandatorily changed after 35 overs which killed of reverse swing avgs and SRs have gone through the roof.

 

[Chrish]

No need to be so rude. We aren't having a fistfight.

Just please tell me why no one else comes close to him.

I don't deal in 'would haves' or 'ifs' so let's deal with what we have.

Definitely not saying that the new rules haven't helped, but to say that it's the only reason for someone's improvement is a bit OTT.

I only judge players based on overall career.. I don't care for terms like "peak" etc.. You can if it suites your adjective. As far as I am concerned, his career average is not really extraordinary given there are 5 other players who have played 50+ ODIs average 50+. He is behind Amla who is an opener while ABD gets many opportunities to remain not out batting down the order. Moreover, Beven averaged similar playing all of his career and Dhoni most of his career under old rules. I can't really neglect these factors. You certainty can though

 

[Abdullah719]

From 2005 to 2008 for 4 years he avgd 36 in ODIs.

From 2008 OCT when new rules came and extra powerplays were introduced,ball was mandatorily changed after 35 overs which killed of reverse swing avgs and SRs have gone through the roof.

2005-2008, mean ODI average 27.7, SR 76.
2008-current, mean ODI average 29, SR 81.

So a change in SR of ~5.

Plus, you clearly don't want to follow up on him doing very well in 2007, before the new rules were applied.

Back to my original question, if I may; what kind of figures would you want to see, to consider AB as one of the all-time premier batsman in ODIs?

My guess is that nothing would suffice.

Therefore this argument is completely void anyway.

 

[Chrish]

2005-2008, mean ODI average 27.7, SR 76.
2008-current, mean ODI average 29, SR 81.

So a change in SR of ~5.

Plus, you clearly don't want to follow up on him doing very well in 2007, before the new rules were applied.

Back to my original question, if I may; what kind of figures would you want to see, to consider AB as one of the all-time premier batsman in ODIs?

My guess is that nothing would suffice.

Therefore this argument is completely void anyway.

If he maintains his current perfomence for next 5 years, he is a certain candidate..

 

[Abdullah719]

I only judge players based on overall career.. I don't care for terms like "peak" etc.. You can if it suites your adjective. As far as I am concerned, his career average is not really extraordinary given there are 5 other players who have played 50+ ODIs average 50+. He is behind Amla who is an opener while ABD gets many opportunities to remain not out batting down the order. Moreover, Beven averaged similar playing all of his career and Dhoni most of his career under old rules. I can't really neglect these factors. You certainty can though

7 years is a pretty long peak.

AB's % of not-outs relative to innings is 17%. Bevan's is 34% and Dhoni's is 29%. Slight difference.

 

[Abdullah719]

If he maintains his current perfomence for next 5 years, he is a certain candidate..

That is reasonable enough.