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Say what you want about David Warner but the truth is that he is a brutal game changer

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He was the main reason Aus won in Melbourne.

Today he struck a century at 120 SR when Renshaw and Khawaja were striking at 30-45.

Unbelievable batting. :warner:
 
Copy-pasting my opinion from another thread:

And what's so great about Warner? He has shown consistently that he can only score when the wicket is a batting paradise. The moment he reaches for his passport, reality sets in.

Also, that chunk of willow he uses should be outlawed.
 
what you want about David Warner but the truth is that he is a brutal game changer
 
Let's see how many games he "changes" in India.
 
The most dangerous player in the world in his comfort zone.
 
But who really cares about India, winning in Australia is what matters.
 
15 of warner's 18 hundreds are of runs below 150. 12 are 135 runs or below. needs more daddy hundreds. Has the ability to change games MUCH more decisively.
 
Only his record in asia sticks out like a sore thumb.

If he scores well in India next month, would comfortably be the best opener in the world.
 
The most dangerous player in the world in his comfort zone.

Yeah but with batsmen getting flat tracks in pretty much all parts of the world (in atleast a test or two), this guy can produce game changing knocks anywhere.

Imagine Warner getting jolly Day 1 tracks like Rajkot, Chennai or even Mohali 2016.

Supreme FTB (and I mean it as a compliment).
 
15 of warner's 18 hundreds are of runs below 150. 12 are 135 runs or below. needs more daddy hundreds. Has the ability to change games MUCH more decisively.

Which is kind of the opposite of Sehwag. Check out his hundreds after his first (105 vs SA, Bloemfontein and 106 vs WI, Nottingham):

147 vs WI
130 vs NZ
195 vs Aus
309 vs Pak
155 vs Aus
164 vs SA
173 vs Pak
201 vs Pak
254 vs Pak
180 vs WI
151 vs Aus
319 vs SA
201* vs SL
131 vs SA
293 vs SL
109 vs SA
165 vs SA
109 vs SL
109 vs SL
173 vs NZ
117 vs Eng

More often than not, when he scored a ton - He went BIG.
 
Which is kind of the opposite of Sehwag. Check out his hundreds after his first (105 vs SA, Bloemfontein and 106 vs WI, Nottingham):

147 vs WI
130 vs NZ
195 vs Aus
309 vs Pak
155 vs Aus
164 vs SA
173 vs Pak
201 vs Pak
254 vs Pak
180 vs WI
151 vs Aus
319 vs SA
201* vs SL
131 vs SA
293 vs SL
109 vs SA
165 vs SA
109 vs SL
109 vs SL
173 vs NZ
117 vs Eng

More often than not, when he scored a ton - He went BIG.

That's impressive. Viru- Make as many unfunny jokes as you want for the rest of your life. Free pass for ever.
 
Sehwag was a supreme FTB PLUS he could play spin like a pro (STB - spin track bully) and was handful outside Asia for most part till 2010.

Sehwag >> Warner

But Warner is incredible too.

Lots of time for him to improve his game and get to Sehwag league.
 
Only his record in asia sticks out like a sore thumb.

If he scores well in India next month, would comfortably be the best opener in the world.

Nonsense. Here are Warner's batting averages by country:

Australia = 59.29 (Batting paradises abound)
SA = 90.50 from 3 tests (similiar conditions, ball comes on quick to the bat)

India = 24.37 (Poor)
New Zealand = 13.00 (Poor)
Sri Lanka = 27.16 (Poor)
West Indies = 26.90 (Poor)
England = 37.06 (Acceptable)
UAE = 59.75 (Good, but seems more and more like a fluke)

If that's not an FTB, I don't know what is.
 
Which is kind of the opposite of Sehwag. Check out his hundreds after his first (105 vs SA, Bloemfontein and 106 vs WI, Nottingham):

A correction here. The innings in Nottingham was vs England, not WI.*
 
Sehwag and Warner type openers are brutal on pitches with no seam and swing.

Alaister Cook type openers are critical in England.
 
What is wrong in being an FTB?

Warner is an FTB who WINS you games.

Doesn't rack up runs on easy pitch at a slow SR thereby killing chances of win.

Actually the fact that Warner averaged 90 in the SA series shows his potential as a batsman. He could develop.
 
Sehwag was a supreme FTB PLUS he could play spin like a pro (STB - spin track bully) and was handful outside Asia for most part till 2010.

Sehwag >> Warner

But Warner is incredible too.

Lots of time for him to improve his game and get to Sehwag league.
well said.
sehwag was a sitting duck for the last years. He inspired Warner though. They were together in IPL and Sehwag told him something that was pivotal for Warner( i can't remember exactly what now). it was a top shelf viru ka funda!!
 
well said.
sehwag was a sitting duck for the last years. He inspired Warner though. They were together in IPL and Sehwag told him something that was pivotal for Warner( i can't remember exactly what now). it was a top shelf viru ka funda!!

If I recall, Warner was a T20 specialist in his early days. Sehwag in the IPL told him (Paraphrasing) that test cricket was way easier, the field is packed with slips and the off-side and leg-side areas are open to clobber the ball around.

Warner went back to Australia and played FC cricket with a new team - New South Wales and averaged 60 in that domestic season, and was consequently selected for Australia.

The team in question is where Australia picks most of its cricketers from, so he was kind of in the right place at the right time as well.
 
If I recall, Warner was a T20 specialist in his early days. Sehwag in the IPL told him (Paraphrasing) that test cricket was way easier, the field is packed with slips and the off-side and leg-side areas are open to clobber the ball around.

Warner went back to Australia and played FC cricket with a new team - New South Wales and averaged 60 in that domestic season, and was consequently selected for Australia.

The team in question is where Australia picks most of its cricketers from, so he was kind of in the right place at the right time as well.

yep that's it. Warner has mentioned how that changed the way he looked at batting :warner
 
Yeah but with batsmen getting flat tracks in pretty much all parts of the world (in atleast a test or two), this guy can produce game changing knocks anywhere.

Imagine Warner getting jolly Day 1 tracks like Rajkot, Chennai or even Mohali 2016.

Supreme FTB (and I mean it as a compliment).

My problem with Warner - and I might be alone in this - is that so far in his career, he has not shown the mental discipline to grind it out, which I believe is imperative for a top Test opener. Could he be outside Asia what Sehwag was in Asia? Perhaps, but Sehwag was dominant in all three major Asian countries. Warner is yet to score a hundred in England and New Zealand. He has also failed in the Caribbean but the pitches there are more Asian in nature these days, so it can be grouped together with his failures in Asia.
 
Warner is definitely a great player in Australian conditions, not sure about his away record though and would be interested to see some stats.
 
Warner is definitely a great player in Australian conditions, not sure about his away record though and would be interested to see some stats.

...

Nonsense. Here are Warner's batting averages by country:

Australia = 59.29 (Batting paradises abound)
SA = 90.50 from 3 tests (similiar conditions, ball comes on quick to the bat)

India = 24.37 (Poor)
New Zealand = 13.00 (Poor)
Sri Lanka = 27.16 (Poor)
West Indies = 26.90 (Poor)
England = 37.06 (Acceptable)
UAE = 59.75 (Good, but seems more and more like a fluke)

If that's not an FTB, I don't know what is.
 
My problem with Warner - and I might be alone in this - is that so far in his career, he has not shown the mental discipline to grind it out, which I believe is imperative for a top Test opener. Could he be outside Asia what Sehwag was in Asia? Perhaps, but Sehwag was dominant in all three major Asian countries. Warner is yet to score a hundred in England and New Zealand. He has also failed in the Caribbean but the pitches there are more Asian in nature these days, so it can be grouped together with his failures in Asia.

He does need to work on his spin, swing and seam game for sure. FTBing is great but you also need to perform when the going gets tough (conditions wise). He did average 90 in SA which I feel shows his potential but he has to do more.

I think he scored some 80s odd in Aus's wins in England 2015 Ashes. I think its just a matter of time he scores in NZ and WI (where some of the tracks will be pattas/flattish).

Needs to get good in tougher conditions though.
 
What is wrong in being an FTB?

Warner is an FTB who WINS you games.

Doesn't rack up runs on easy pitch at a slow SR thereby killing chances of win.

Actually the fact that Warner averaged 90 in the SA series shows his potential as a batsman. He could develop.

Yep, even if flat track bullies only score runs on flat tracks at least they are capable of scoring runs. On the other hand when desi fans get a player who is a flat track bully they want him to be dropped. We're so worried about English and Australian conditions which we face once every five or six years that we forget that we should be more concerned with winning games at home first.
 
Warner won the IPL singlehandedly. I can see him scoring big on the India tour if the pitches are like what the englishmen got.
 
In tests he is not a complete opener yet, in limited overs he is the best in the world by far.

I think Varun is being unfair dismissing his South Africa performance as flat track bullying, on the same pitches Johnson and Harris ran riot. You can no longer say South African conditions are like Australian conditions because in Australia everything except Hobart early in the summer is flat, while in South Africa there is usually seam and swing on offer.

Also speaking of Hobart, Warner's maiden hundred was a fourth innings masterpiece on an absolute green top. It could have come out of Geoff Boycott's Headingley dreams, it was that green.
 
Yes he's got a few areas to improve on no doubt about that but he's an out and out match winner. Not a bad guy to have in your side I would reckon.
 
If a batsmen is as good as he is, he can be cocky all he wants. Remember Kohli also used to be cocky in the years 2010-2013 but he was equally good

These both guys have same quality.They don't let their cockiness allow them to play arrogant/dumb shots unlike Pakistani Bats & always step up during pressure situation
 
Pretty much Sehwag type player.. Entirely condition-dependent
 
What people don't understand with Warner while criticising him is the fact that he makes results possible for Australia.

Australia has been having flat roads for pitches for years now and it's bloody hard to pick up 20 wickets on it, especially against a good batting team. However Warner simply gives invaluable time for the Australians to pick up their wickets. As an example, there was no way the 2nd test at Melbourne should have been an Australian win. It's hard enough to pick up 20 wickets on Australian wickets without weather interruptions. It's nigh on impossible when nearly 2 days get rained off. But what Warner did with his blitzkrieg century was that he took those rain breaks out of the equation and allowed invaluable time for the Australian bowlers to put pressure on the Pakistani batsmen when they duly cracked.

Rinse repeat here at Sydney. More than 60 overs have been lost in this match, yet Australia are in a very good position of forcing another win on the final day and it's primarily due to the magnificent efforts of Warner in both the innings. He is a pocket sized dynamite but worth every pound of his weight in gold as he's one of a kind of match changers in world cricket.
 
What people don't understand with Warner while criticising him is the fact that he makes results possible for Australia.

Australia has been having flat roads for pitches for years now and it's bloody hard to pick up 20 wickets on it, especially against a good batting team. However Warner simply gives invaluable time for the Australians to pick up their wickets. As an example, there was no way the 2nd test at Melbourne should have been an Australian win. It's hard enough to pick up 20 wickets on Australian wickets without weather interruptions. It's nigh on impossible when nearly 2 days get rained off. But what Warner did with his blitzkrieg century was that he took those rain breaks out of the equation and allowed invaluable time for the Australian bowlers to put pressure on the Pakistani batsmen when they duly cracked.

Rinse repeat here at Sydney. More than 60 overs have been lost in this match, yet Australia are in a very good position of forcing another win on the final day and it's primarily due to the magnificent efforts of Warner in both the innings. He is a pocket sized dynamite but worth every pound of his weight in gold as he's one of a kind of match changers in world cricket.

Didnt quite work against South Africa. But yes margin for error is small with him. I still he is susceptible to true pace and the short ball at the head. Wahab has had a quite a few dismissals off him going back to the fifty over World Cup and then the t20 and the test series here
 
Didnt quite work against South Africa. But yes margin for error is small with him. I still he is susceptible to true pace and the short ball at the head. Wahab has had a quite a few dismissals off him going back to the fifty over World Cup and then the t20 and the test series here

Pitches werent the same in the South Africa series. The wickets surprisingly had more juice than what were usually available in the last few years in Australia. Australia collapse outside home, but it's not often you see Australia getting shot out under 80 at home.
 
Pitches werent the same in the South Africa series. The wickets surprisingly had more juice than what were usually available in the last few years in Australia. Australia collapse outside home, but it's not often you see Australia getting shot out under 80 at home.
the South African totals did not suffer the same fate..
 
Warner and Sehwag like players are highly overrated in test matches. They generally have horrible showings on difficult tracks and cannot handle the turning ball (Warner) or the moving one (Sehwag).

On a different note, most of these Aussies are now averaging in the 50s, 60s and even 90s. Will be fun doing a before and after comparison of the India tour.
 
the South African totals did not suffer the same fate..

That's because they are more technically equipped.

I never denied Warner's technical frailties on pitches with some juice in it. I just said on flat pitches, he takes time out of the equation with his blitzkrieg innings.
 
That's because they are more technically equipped.

I never denied Warner's technical frailties on pitches with some juice in it. I just said on flat pitches, he takes time out of the equation with his blitzkrieg innings.

Sure and I just added that helpful attacks and flat pitches make him a champion
 
In conditions that suit him. He's no different to Sehwag as far as I'm concerned.
I would have Kirsten and Cook ahead of them both anytime, they give me better chances of being competitive and to win in foreign conditions.
 
Warner and Sehwag like players are highly overrated in test matches. They generally have horrible showings on difficult tracks and cannot handle the turning ball (Warner) or the moving one (Sehwag).

Yet I bet you would love to have an opener like that in your team.
 
Nonsense. Here are Warner's batting averages by country:

Australia = 59.29 (Batting paradises abound)
SA = 90.50 from 3 tests (similiar conditions, ball comes on quick to the bat)

India = 24.37 (Poor)
New Zealand = 13.00 (Poor)
Sri Lanka = 27.16 (Poor)
West Indies = 26.90 (Poor)
England = 37.06 (Acceptable)
UAE = 59.75 (Good, but seems more and more like a fluke)

If that's not an FTB, I don't know what is.

he actually benefits from touring SA during the dry season.
During Feb-Mar we have no rain in this country. Our surfaces are dry, with the domestic 40 over competition at it's last stages.
If they were to tour in October/November even during our holiday season in December his numbers would make for an ugly reading. Australia are very lucky to tour our country in March as most of the moisture is sucked from every surface in the country. But i think everyone knows the formula to beating Australia now.
Just make the surface move, be it spin or swing. Don't be stupid and prepare a quick and hard deck a la Pretoria where Australia with Johnson destroyed us.
 
Overseas tests overseas tests overseas....ghanta foreign conditions.

If a player can win you 50-70% of the games in favourable conditions, you pick him. You can drop him for overseas tests.

I don't care if Sehwag or Warner suck in certain conditions...they are amazing match winners in their comfort zone and I would take them gladly in my team.

Same goes for Pujara.

He may suck outside Asia but in Asia, he is on track to becoming the greatest ever in terms of impact.
 
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Overseas tests overseas tests overseas....ghanta foreign conditions.

If a player can win you 50-70% of the games in favourable conditions, you pick him. You can drop him for overseas tests.

I don't care if Sehwag or Warner suck in certain conditions...they are amazing match winners in their comfort zone and I would take them gladly in my team.

Same goes for Pujara.

He may suck outside Asia but in Asia, he is on track to becoming the greatest ever in terms of impact.

Sehwag's sufferings outside asia are exaggerated, probably because he destroyed his numbers in the end by continuing to play after he became deadwood and people remember just his struggles after 2010.

He averaged 41 in the last decade outside asia, which is more than decent for an asian opener especially when you consider the impact he brings with his strike rate. People forget that opening outside asia is the toughest job in test cricket. Compared to Sehwag, the other asian openers in the same period averaged:

Attapattu - 39
Wasim Jaffer - 29
Imran Farhat - 27
Salman Butt - 27
Jayasuriya - 18

Heck, middle order players like Younis averaged 41 and Sanga averaged 43 in that period. Mahela averaged in the mid thirties.

And they were not all just short 30 (35) knocks. Remember him playing 150+ knocks outside asia. Guy got out trying to get to his 200 with a six at the MCG. Funnily enough, he has the same number of tons in England, Australia and South Africa as the "ATG" Younis (that including the dead rubber one here at Sydney). It's almost like Sehwag like players are criticised for their brand of play even if they taste success outside of their conditions.
 
Sehwag's sufferings outside asia are exaggerated, probably because he destroyed his numbers in the end by continuing to play after he became deadwood and people remember just his struggles after 2010.

He averaged 41 in the last decade outside asia, which is more than decent for an asian opener especially when you consider the impact he brings with his strike rate. People forget that opening outside asia is the toughest job in test cricket. Compared to Sehwag, the other asian openers in the same period averaged:

Attapattu - 39
Wasim Jaffer - 29
Imran Farhat - 27
Salman Butt - 27
Jayasuriya - 18

Heck, middle order players like Younis averaged 41 and Sanga averaged 43 in that period. Mahela averaged in the mid thirties.

And they were not all just short 30 (35) knocks. Remember him playing 150+ knocks outside asia. Guy got out trying to get to his 200 with a six at the MCG. Funnily enough, he has the same number of tons in England, Australia and South Africa as the "ATG" Younis (that including the dead rubber one here at Sydney). It's almost like Sehwag like players are criticised for their brand of play even if they taste success outside of their conditions.

I know yaar. I was making a general point.

Sehwag was actually pretty decent outside Asia till 2010.

Also I agree that all round openers get rated more and rightly so.

But that doesn't mean guys like Sehwag or even Warner are useless. They are so ridiculously impactful that its insane.
 
In his comfort zone he is a match winner no doubt. But outside of comfort zone he doesn't have the tempremeant to last.
 
Posters are quick to criticize Warner for his last series in India but when you look at SA's last series in India you get an idea.



AB de Villiers 7 innings 36.85 average 42.43 S/R
D Elgar 7 innings 19.57 average 33.43 S/R
HM Amla 7 innings 16.85 average 20.08 S/R
JP Duminy 5 innings 14.00 average 41.66 S/R
F du Plessis 7 innings 8.57 average 21.12 S/R
DJ Vilas 7 innings 8.57 average 37.73 S/R
T Bavuma 2 innings 28.00 average 32.55 S/R
 
There is a reason for anyone to make it as my DP and Warner earned it.

The Destroyer.
 
I know yaar. I was making a general point.

Sehwag was actually pretty decent outside Asia till 2010.

Also I agree that all round openers get rated more and rightly so.

But that doesn't mean guys like Sehwag or even Warner are useless. They are so ridiculously impactful that its insane.

Lol forget about decent, those are good numbers for an opener and very good numbers for an asian opener.

Thing is that he played too long and overstayed his expiry date. Problem with hand eye coordination players is that they look like a million bucks when they are young but things can go from good to ugly in pretty quick time when their reflexes desert them. Shouldn't have played beyond 2010.
 
Posters are quick to criticize Warner for his last series in India but when you look at SA's last series in India you get an idea.



AB de Villiers 7 innings 36.85 average 42.43 S/R
D Elgar 7 innings 19.57 average 33.43 S/R
HM Amla 7 innings 16.85 average 20.08 S/R
JP Duminy 5 innings 14.00 average 41.66 S/R
F du Plessis 7 innings 8.57 average 21.12 S/R
DJ Vilas 7 innings 8.57 average 37.73 S/R
T Bavuma 2 innings 28.00 average 32.55 S/R

But what pitches did SA get in India?
And most importantly what did the Indian bats average during the SA series compared to the Australian series.
This should make for an interesting reply, provided you don't run away as usual that is ;-)
 
Lol forget about decent, those are good numbers for an opener and very good numbers for an asian opener.

Thing is that he played too long and overstayed his expiry date. Problem with hand eye coordination players is that they look like a million bucks when they are young but things can go from good to ugly in pretty quick time when their reflexes desert them. Shouldn't have played beyond 2010.

Stats wise good.

Performance wise decent.

Ponting has great stats in SL and Pakistan but he isn't known to be a great/good player of spin.
 
But what pitches did SA get in India?
And most importantly what did the Indian bats average during the SA series compared to the Australian series.
This should make for an interesting reply, provided you don't run away as usual that is ;-)

POS PLAYER CURRENT TEAM INN RUNS AVG SR 4s 6s
1 Ajinkya Rahane India 6 266 53.20 51.55 22 8
2 AB de Villiers South Africa 7 258 36.86 42.43 31 1
3 Murali Vijay India 7 210 35.00 43.12 27 1
4 Cheteshwar Pujara India 6 202 33.67 47.75 23 2
5 Virat Kohli India 6 200 33.33 51.68 25 -
6 Shikhar Dhawan India 7 150 25.00 43.35 21 -
7 Dean Elgar South Africa 7 137 19.57 33.33 10 2
8 Hashim Amla South Africa 7 118 16.86 20.49 12 -
9 Ravindra Jadeja India 5 109 21.80 46.38 15 -
10 Ravichandran Ashwin India 5 101 25.25 39.30 8 1

With minimum criteria of 100 runs

Except ABD all your batsmen are averaging even below Ash and Jaddu.
 
POS PLAYER CURRENT TEAM INN RUNS AVG SR 4s 6s
1 Ajinkya Rahane India 6 266 53.20 51.55 22 8
2 AB de Villiers South Africa 7 258 36.86 42.43 31 1
3 Murali Vijay India 7 210 35.00 43.12 27 1
4 Cheteshwar Pujara India 6 202 33.67 47.75 23 2
5 Virat Kohli India 6 200 33.33 51.68 25 -
6 Shikhar Dhawan India 7 150 25.00 43.35 21 -
7 Dean Elgar South Africa 7 137 19.57 33.33 10 2
8 Hashim Amla South Africa 7 118 16.86 20.49 12 -
9 Ravindra Jadeja India 5 109 21.80 46.38 15 -
10 Ravichandran Ashwin India 5 101 25.25 39.30 8 1

With minimum criteria of 100 runs

Except ABD all your batsmen are averaging even below Ash and Jaddu.

You didn't get my question.
Firstly i'll address your post, only one player has a good average in that tour and that thanks to the last test. Everyone was poor. Your number suggests so.
What I asked Gilly was what did the Indian batsmen average against South Africa as compared against Australia.
You've done part one, which is Indian bats were as hopeless as the SA bats against third grade spinners.
Now how did the Indian batsmen do against Australia since Gilly wants to compare the conditions. If the Indians failed against Australia then Warner can be given an excuse.
Can you post the batting averages.
 
You didn't get my question.
Firstly i'll address your post, only one player has a good average in that tour and that thanks to the last test. Everyone was poor. Your number suggests so.
What I asked Gilly was what did the Indian batsmen average against South Africa as compared against Australia.
You've done part one, which is Indian bats were as hopeless as the SA bats against third grade spinners.
Now how did the Indian batsmen do against Australia since Gilly wants to compare the conditions. If the Indians failed against Australia then Warner can be given an excuse.
Can you post the batting averages.

POS PLAYER CURRENT TEAM INN RUNS AVG SR 4s 6s
1 Murali Vijay India 7 430 61.43 49.26 59 6
2 Cheteshwar Pujara India 7 419 83.80 62.44 57 1
3 MS Dhoni India 6 326 81.50 86.70 40 6
4 Michael Clarke Australia 6 286 47.67 50.71 28 4
5 Virat Kohli India 6 284 56.80 51.08 35 2
6 Ed Cowan Australia 8 265 33.12 37.54 35 1
7 David Warner Australia 8 195 24.38 50.39 22 1
8 Sachin Tendulkar India 7 192 32.00 55.49 20 2
9 Shikhar Dhawan India 1 187 187.00 107.47 33 2
10 Steven Smith Australia 4 161 40.25 40.05 14 3
 
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