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Sayeeda Warsi, Tory Islamophobia: Sajid Javid's experiences different to those of practicing Muslims

Yossarian

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When Evan Davis put it to Sayeeda Warsi, during her interview on Newsnight, that some would say in response to her claims of Islamophobia in the Tory party being ignored, is that the Tory party was more 'open' (towards Muslims) considering that Sajid Javid was the favourite in a poll of Tory members to be the next PM.

Warsi replied that Javid's experiences (in the Tory Party) as a self-confessed non-practicing (ie ex-) Muslim were very different to those who are devout practicing Muslims.

Basically she called him the Asian equivalent of Uncle Tom, although not in those words.


watch from about 2;55

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For what it's worth, I agree with her. He is a bit of an Uncle T.
 
A bit? He 's the perfect example of an Uncle Tom. He probably sits there and makes Islamaphobic jokes himself so..
 
I think you can be an ex-Muslim and not an Uncle Tom to be fair. There are some fair few ethnics who are not religious but still able to stand up for their ethnic group if they feel it is justified.

Although yeah, Sajid Javid isn't one of those, he is an Uncle Tom.
 
The Tory Party strikes me as a curiously uncomfortable space for outwardly religious members, which is strange considering that it is apparently a socially conservative party.

Anti-Islamic sentiment is rife, there are sporadic whiffs of antisemitism and Holocaust Denial from the lunatic fringes, and even the Faith-Family-Flag churchy types are feeling pushed out by an increasingly liberal policy agenda.

Not that I lose sleep over this at night or anything, but it is interesting to see a nominally Christian country gradually evolving into a secular society and unofficially irreligious state.
 
The Tory Party strikes me as a curiously uncomfortable space for outwardly religious members, which is strange considering that it is apparently a socially conservative party.

Anti-Islamic sentiment is rife, there are sporadic whiffs of antisemitism and Holocaust Denial from the lunatic fringes, and even the Faith-Family-Flag churchy types are feeling pushed out by an increasingly liberal policy agenda.

Not that I lose sleep over this at night or anything, but it is interesting to see a nominally Christian country gradually evolving into a secular society and unofficially irreligious state.
A few weeks ago, on the Andrew Marr show, when the accusations of Islamophobia in the Tory Party were put to him, he completely denied there was an issue, and even claimed that the Muslim groups making these accusations were not representing Muslims. He claims he does not practice Islam anymore and yet he took his oath of office on the Quran.

On a side note: He voted Remain in the Referendum (because he thought Leave will win), but now he's become a strong Brexiteer.
 
A few weeks ago, on the Andrew Marr show, when the accusations of Islamophobia in the Tory Party were put to him, he completely denied there was an issue, and even claimed that the Muslim groups making these accusations were not representing Muslims. He claims he does not practice Islam anymore and yet he took his oath of office on the Quran.

On a side note: He voted Remain in the Referendum (because he thought Leave will win), but now he's become a strong Brexiteer.

This is what successful politicians are able to do unfortunately - wear more faces than the town hall clock and maintain a serious tone whilst doing it. It is an underrated skill.

Sajid speaks liberally to the liberals and conservatively to the conservatives, speaks Islamically to the Muslims and atheistically to the atheists, votes Remain for the Remainers and then switches to Brexit for the Brexiteers.

It allows guys like Sajid to influence as many people as possible and get them on side, then soon enough - because everyone is so self-absorbed, so busy and so forgetful - nobody even knows what his real opinions and principles are, if he ever had any in the first place, so they just swallow whatever he says.

Genius.
 
This is what successful politicians are able to do unfortunately - wear more faces than the town hall clock and maintain a serious tone whilst doing it. It is an underrated skill.

Sajid speaks liberally to the liberals and conservatively to the conservatives, speaks Islamically to the Muslims and atheistically to the atheists, votes Remain for the Remainers and then switches to Brexit for the Brexiteers.

It allows guys like Sajid to influence as many people as possible and get them on side, then soon enough - because everyone is so self-absorbed, so busy and so forgetful - nobody even knows what his real opinions and principles are, if he ever had any in the first place, so they just swallow whatever he says.

Genius.
Apparently, along with Michael Gove, he's also a member of a U.S. Neo-Con organisation, The American Enterprise Institute (AEI), which is one of the biggest Republican-oriented "Think Tanks" in the US, and whose recent members include Dick Cheney.
 
A bit? He 's the perfect example of an Uncle Tom. He probably sits there and makes Islamaphobic jokes himself so..

Why would you think that, exactly?

Tyranny of low expectation is writ large on this thread.

He’s a secular Muslim, same as I’m a secular Christian. Religion is irrelevant to him, as it is irrelevant to me. More power to the bloke.
 
Why would you think that, exactly?

Tyranny of low expectation is writ large on this thread.

He’s a secular Muslim, same as I’m a secular Christian. Religion is irrelevant to him, as it is irrelevant to me. More power to the bloke.

Both yourself and Sajid don't believe in God, so Im not sure how you can classify as Muslims or Christians?

This fine. The reason he is known as an Uncle Tom is he refuses to investigate Islamaphobia in his party. If there were Jewish calls, he would start an immediate investigation. This is an Uncle Tom mentality, doesn't matter what he believes.
 
This is what successful politicians are able to do unfortunately - wear more faces than the town hall clock and maintain a serious tone whilst doing it. It is an underrated skill.

Sajid speaks liberally to the liberals and conservatively to the conservatives, speaks Islamically to the Muslims and atheistically to the atheists, votes Remain for the Remainers and then switches to Brexit for the Brexiteers.

It allows guys like Sajid to influence as many people as possible and get them on side, then soon enough - because everyone is so self-absorbed, so busy and so forgetful - nobody even knows what his real opinions and principles are, if he ever had any in the first place, so they just swallow whatever he says.

Genius.

It’s easy in fact. Just find common ground with people. We are far more alike than different.
 
Both yourself and Sajid don't believe in God, so Im not sure how you can classify as Muslims or Christians?

I’m culturally Christian. I absorbed the values but not the dogma. My brother’s keeper, Good Samaritan, forgive your enemies seventy times seven, be kind, overcome evil with good, all that jazz. I’m sure Mr Javed is similarly culturally Muslim.

This fine. The reason he is known as an Uncle Tom is he refuses to investigate Islamaphobia in his party. If there were Jewish calls, he would start an immediate investigation. This is an Uncle Tom mentality, doesn't matter what he believes.

Fair enough if true. Has he made such a refusal?
 
I’m culturally Christian. I absorbed the values but not the dogma. My brother’s keeper, Good Samaritan, forgive your enemies seventy times seven, be kind, overcome evil with good, all that jazz. I’m sure Mr Javed is similarly culturally Muslim.



Fair enough if true. Has he made such a refusal?

Unfortunately this is where it becomes problematic. If he openly states he's not Muslim then he isnt a Muslim. But if he states he's non-practicing then he cant genuinely be called a Non Muslim.

However at the same time he abrogates his right to comment on core Muslim issues that affect practicing Muslims. Because that makes him a hypocrite. For example for Sajid to comment on Muslims praying or wearing a hijab would irk many. There is a very strong belief anti-hypocrite element to Islam. More so than anti-NonMuslim.

You see if you claim your are a Muslim, and then at the same time you dont practice that makes you a hypocrite or a liar. Because a Muslim means one who submits. And the best expression of submission is to place your forehead on the ground in front of God. Therefore one who refrains from doing so or worse openly admits and takes pride in not doing so while lecturing others about their islamic behaviour or culture, can be accused of hypocrisy..
 
Why would you think that, exactly?

Tyranny of low expectation is writ large on this thread.

He’s a secular Muslim, same as I’m a secular Christian. Religion is irrelevant to him, as it is irrelevant to me. More power to the bloke.

Which is fine if religion really is irrelevant to him, the problem might come if he's used by the Tory party to present anti-Muslim rhetoric from "one of your own". The same way a rapist will hire a female lawyer to present himself as pro-women.
 
Which is fine if religion really is irrelevant to him, the problem might come if he's used by the Tory party to present anti-Muslim rhetoric from "one of your own". The same way a rapist will hire a female lawyer to present himself as pro-women.

Ok, but Warsi is practising and she was called an Uncle Thomasina on this board. It does seem that there are Muslims who don’t want Muslims to succeed, because when they do they are somehow less Muslim. Or perhaps because successful Muslims make them feel bad about their own relative lack of success, so they have to bring the successful down to size. Which is the tyranny of low expectation.
 
Ok, but Warsi is practising and she was called an Uncle Thomasina on this board. It does seem that there are Muslims who don’t want Muslims to succeed, because when they do they are somehow less Muslim. Or perhaps because successful Muslims make them feel bad about their own relative lack of success, so they have to bring the successful down to size. Which is the tyranny of low expectation.

You are always going to get a percentage of people who are never happy, it's a part of life no matter what your background. For what it's worth, I don't think Javid needs to feel any obligation to be practising or supportive of a faith he's not feeling, everyone is entitled to make their own path, and he has indeed been very successful, as have his brothers. My only objection is as TGK has already pointed out, would be if he is used by his party to be the Uncle Tom weapon against what is perceived to be his community. But that's just me, it rubs me up the wrong way, if it's effective on lesser people then maybe they've got it right.
 
He’s a secular Muslim, .....
What's a secular Muslim? Being a Muslim means you believe in the faith of Islam. Islam is not a race, and neither are Muslims.

By saying he's "not a practicing Muslim" he's trying to have it both ways, ie a Muslim (a believer) who also happens to be an ex-Muslim (doesn't believe any more)! :79:

He claims he doesn't practice Islam and yet he chooses to take his oath of office on the Quran. :))
 
I’m culturally Christian. I absorbed the values but not the dogma. My brother’s keeper, Good Samaritan, forgive your enemies seventy times seven, be kind, overcome evil with good, all that jazz. I’m sure Mr Javed is similarly culturally Muslim

Islam is a much younger religion than Christianity, and Islam has also not been altered by reformism and the rewriting of history numerous times. This is possibly a part of the reason why most Muslims take their religion more seriously than most Christians. As a result it is much easier to be a Cultural Christian (which most English people are) than a Cultural Muslim (which is not really a thing).
 
Islam is a much younger religion than Christianity, and Islam has also not been altered by reformism and the rewriting of history numerous times. This is possibly a part of the reason why most Muslims take their religion more seriously than most Christians. As a result it is much easier to be a Cultural Christian (which most English people are) than a Cultural Muslim (which is not really a thing).

Interesting!

The OT was rewritten. The NT has stayed in the current form since the fourth century Council of Nicea. As an organisation, Christianity is really only a couple of centuries older than Islam.

Christianity’s strength is that it has changed with the times - it is a part of culture, whereas Muslims seem to see Islam as above culture, above even history.
 
What's a secular Muslim? Being a Muslim means you believe in the faith of Islam. Islam is not a race, and neither are Muslims.

By saying he's "not a practicing Muslim" he's trying to have it both ways, ie a Muslim (a believer) who also happens to be an ex-Muslim (doesn't believe any more)! :79:

He claims he doesn't practice Islam and yet he chooses to take his oath of office on the Quran. :))

Someone who absorbs the moral lessons or the Qu’ran but sees them as metaphor instead of absolute truth, I’d say.
 
Someone who absorbs the moral lessons or the Qu’ran but sees them as metaphor instead of absolute truth, I’d say.

but thats where you run into major problems..the Quraan in some passages is very unambiguos..there is no other way to interpret it..for example if I were to say the earth orbits the sun, you wouldnt call that a metaphor..The quraan says dont drink khamr (alchohol) in one passage and then in another verse gives us a story about Moses meeting a wiseman that is full of metaphors that you really need to study..

the basics of Islam are not told to us in metaphors, they are unambiguous. However lessons and teachings, and directions are told using stories and events..also there are verses that speak directly to the prophet pbuh and his followers telling them to do something..literally saying oh Muhammed pbuh do this..etc..

its unlike any other religious text hence why it needs to be studied properly and hence why it can be used to subvert by the wicked too..

its pretty clear..
 
Fascinating as ever [MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION].

An example of a Biblical metaphor is the parable of the Good Samaritan. Whether the Samaritan or the bloke from another land that he helped when the bloke was assaulted actually existed is immaterial. The idea is to act like the Samaritan, which I try to do even though I don’t know if there is a God or not.

There are definite commands in Leviticus but Christians ignore plenty of them as they seem out of date and irrelevant. Some of the rules on cleanliness for instance. They made sense in 2000BCE in the desert but not in a modern nation with plentiful running water and soap.
 
Leviticus and Deuteronomy taken from one angle will prohibit alcohol, homosexuality, and eating pork, shellfish and insects. But apart from some Jews with the pork, nobody really pays attention to these guidelines anymore.
 
Leviticus and Deuteronomy taken from one angle will prohibit alcohol, homosexuality, and eating pork, shellfish and insects. But apart from some Jews with the pork, nobody really pays attention to these guidelines anymore.

Don’t forget women having to sit in an outhouse away from the men for one week in four.
 
Fascinating as ever [MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION].

An example of a Biblical metaphor is the parable of the Good Samaritan. Whether the Samaritan or the bloke from another land that he helped when the bloke was assaulted actually existed is immaterial. The idea is to act like the Samaritan, which I try to do even though I don’t know if there is a God or not.

There are definite commands in Leviticus but Christians ignore plenty of them as they seem out of date and irrelevant. Some of the rules on cleanliness for instance. They made sense in 2000BCE in the desert but not in a modern nation with plentiful running water and soap.

Id like to hear about these rules.

Islam is alot less stricter than Judaism. I dont know enough about the rules around christianity to judge but from what you mentioned above we definatley dont allow for the outhouse stuff..

in general pork is haraam, alchohol,illicit sex, usury, pork, murder of innocents,all forbidden..
be good to your neighbour, parents, siblings, wife children, give to charity, pray and remember God regularly, stay clean, speak good words not bad ones, contribute positively to society, forbid evil and enjoin good, fast in ramadhan to remember the poor, stay humble, give to charity regularly..

thats pretty much Islam...(unless ive missed something out. [MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION])
 
Judaism in its hard-Orthodox form is exceptionally strict, and I would view their Orthodoxy in general as quite strict. But the other two major denominations that are officially recognised by Israel - Conservative and Reform - are more relaxed, especially Reform which has hardly any enforceable rules at all. And then there are the minor schools which generally get more and more liberal as time goes on.
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lamophobic-tweet-sadiq-khan-pig-a8445456.html
[MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] @Cpt.Rishwat

Surely now the home sec must start an investigation, this is a disgrace?
To be fair, it's not the Home Secretary's job to start an investigation re-Islamphobia in the Tory Party. That's the job of the Tory Party Leader or the Party Chairman. Whereas if a criminal offence has been committed, then that's the job of the police. However, the Home Secretary should also not claim that there isn't Islamophobia in the Tory Party just in order to maintain his Uncle Tom credentials.
 
To be fair, it's not the Home Secretary's job to start an investigation re-Islamphobia in the Tory Party. That's the job of the Tory Party Leader or the Party Chairman. Whereas if a criminal offence has been committed, then that's the job of the police. However, the Home Secretary should also not claim that there isn't Islamophobia in the Tory Party just in order to maintain his Uncle Tom credentials.

Sure but but he can inform the chairman he would like an investigation. After all he has been very vocal in denying any such prejudism exists in his party and I would have thought he would want his views to be confirmed esp now we have another example against the mayor of London.

What are your thoughts on Fabricants tweets?
 
[MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] cultural Muslim.isnt really a thing in South Asian Muslim communities where religious belief and expression is still.really high. Its more common in Muslim.majority countries where secularism has had a much deeper imprint like Turkey Albania Bosnia the Central Asian states. Some north african states like Algeria and Tunisia
 
And being a secular Muslim would mean believing in the central tenet of Islam the shahada but not theocratic governance or imposition of religion by the state. Being Muslim a religious position isnt the same as having a belief in a political system like the Caliphate or the Islamic State. Many Twelver Shia clergy before Khomeinis Wilayat e Faqih doctrine believed in political quietism until the Mahdi arrives.
 
Oops, I mean Sajid Javid obviously. :22: Shouldn’t post before I am fully awake.
 
Does Sajid Javid shave his hair/head in order to try not to look like an Asian / Pakistani?

Lots of Pakistanis shave their heads these days if they are going bald. In fact a lot of bald men do it in general, I don't think it's anything to do with trying to look less Pakistani.
 
Theresa May has been accused of "burying her head in the sand" over Islamophobia in the Conservative Party.

Former party chair Baroness Warsi said the PM had failed to "acknowledge" or "tackle" the problem and this was "symptomatic" of her wider leadership.

She spoke out after a council candidate who made what she called "vile" comments was reinstated by his local party in Harlow, Essex.

Peter Lamb has now quit the Tory Party, following the outcry.

A spokesperson for Conservative head office said the party always acted "decisively" when cases came to light.

But Baroness Warsi, who was the UK's first female Muslim cabinet minister, has said her party had "turned a blind eye" to prejudice and become "institutionally Islamophobic".

She suggested the "rot had set in" several years ago and accused senior party officials of being "in denial" and presiding over an "opaque" complaints process.

In a personal attack on the prime minister, she said Mrs May had "failed to tackle the problem head on".

"She doesn't listen, she fails to acknowledge when there is a problem," she said.

"It's probably symptomatic of the way in which her leadership has dealt with other matters.

"Burying your head in the sand is not going to make problems go away."

She said efforts to modernise the party had "gone into reverse" since Theresa May succeeded David Cameron as leader, but she ruled out quitting the party, as others have done.

"If my party's going though a process of 're-Ukipification' of itself, then it's my job to stand within that party and fight to bring it back to the centre ground."

She has written to the party's chief executive Sir Mick Davis urging him to "show leadership" on the issue, because Mrs May and party chairman Brandon Lewis had not.

She said Sir Mick, a former chair of the Jewish Leadership Council, had a "long history of fighting bigotry" and was "uniquely placed to understand consequences of unchecked hate".

Baroness Warsi has been warning about anti-Muslim prejudice in the party for years.

Her latest intervention follows a row over former candidate Peter Lamb, who was was due to stand in the Staple Tye ward, in Harlow, Essex, in May's local elections and had previously stood in the Toddbrook ward.

Mr Lamb was disciplined by the party after it emerged that he had posted a message on Twitter in 2015, saying "Islam like alcoholism [sic]" and "the first step to recovery is admit you have a problem".

Later in the same year, he tweeted: "Turkey buys oil from ISIS. Muslims sticking together," adding: "Do they want us to call ISIS Daesh now so that we don't associate them with Islam?"

Mr Lamb was reinstated as a candidate but local party sources said he had quit the party earlier on Tuesday, following the row about his comments.

'Party in denial'
In a statement on Twitter, he apologised for the remarks.

"Some time ago I tweeted a comment about Islam. The tweet was aimed at the Extremists that have hijacked Islam and are cowardly hiding behind the religion, I would like to apologise to those who follow the religion peacefully and are contributing to the diversity of the UK," he said in a tweet.


A Conservative spokesman said: "Discrimination or abuse of any kind is wrong and will not be tolerated. When [Conservative Party headquarters] have been made aware of cases we have acted swiftly and decisively, suspending or expelling those involved and launching an immediate investigation under our Party's code of conduct."

Meanwhile, it has been reported that the party has suspended 14 members for Islamophobic Facebook posts in a group called the "Jacob Rees-Mogg Supporters Group".

The page was not affiliated with the Tories or Mr Rees-Mogg but Conservative members used it.

Buzfeed reported that Conservative officials had identified some as members and suspended them.

When tackled last week about allegations of Islamophobia in the Tory ranks, Conservative MP Henry Smith told the BBC's Politics Live said he had "never come across" it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47454993
 
This is still not enough. Nothing was done about Boris Johnson's Islamophobic comments last year, and now we have paged affiliated to someone as well known as Mogg, which are filled with Anti-Islamic hate speech. Muslims, in particular those in standings of power (Warsi is doing something at least, but so should the likes of Sadiq Khan and others), need to press this issue like the Jews do in the media.

Numerous MPs and party policies need to be investigated.
 
Interesting how the media can make such a difference in perception of the British public. One of the major campaigns they are running against the Labour party is that it is inherently anti-Semitic, and Corbyn is himself one of the major drivers of this.

Yet we don't see any such parallels drawn with the Conservative fostering of Islamophobia, stories like this just won't see daylight within mainstream media channels. Warsi is a brave woman, she is definitely fighting the tide.
 
Interesting how the media can make such a difference in perception of the British public. One of the major campaigns they are running against the Labour party is that it is inherently anti-Semitic, and Corbyn is himself one of the major drivers of this.

Yet we don't see any such parallels drawn with the Conservative fostering of Islamophobia, stories like this just won't see daylight within mainstream media channels. Warsi is a brave woman, she is definitely fighting the tide.

One of the Tory MPs stated his party cannot be Islamaphobic because Sajid Javid is a Muslim. Labour has Jewish MPs but this is forgotton. Sajid himself says he is not a Muslim.

No point beating around the bush, Jewish Zionists have far too much influence in British politics. They will never allow Corbyn or anyone who is critical of Israel to become PM.
 
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