Shoaib Malik Support & Performance Watch

Black Zero · Jul 13, 2010

Amir said:
Anwaar bro, sorry to hear about Malik. I know you must be devastated and must be a difficult time for you. Just so you know, you have a shoulder to lean on. Hope you feel better.

Sincerely,

Amir

Yes It was a surprise and I am bit disappointed.
Now I hope he calls Inzi to set a tele-conf with YK and MoYo to do something about this new situation.

LG · Jul 14, 2010

Anwaar said:
I suppose you mean higher.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Anwaar said:
Re: "It's easier for a batsman who averages around 35 to score consistently around his average, than it is for someone who averages around 50"
Then I happen to disagree:
this guy has avg of 60 with v.v.low CoV:
http://www.cricinfo.com/england/content/player/20413.html

few more name with High Avg and Low CoV:
Katich
Hobbs
Barrington
Kallis

and here are few players with Low average and High CoV:
Mohsin
Mudassar
Gatting
Flower
Ijaz
Whittal

Do you disagree that it's easier for a batsman who average's 35 to score around his average than it is for a batsman who averages 50????!!! I'm sure you didn't mean that. It would surely be easier.

And the example you gave, Herbert Sutcliffe, is one of the greatest batsmen of all time, some argue second only to Bradman. He is known for his consistently significant scores opening the batting in difficult conditions, not for consistently scoring 30s (unlike Malik). And again, if you look at his scores, he scored mostly around his average (around 60), a few low scores, and a good number of high scores, but only a couple of huge scores, and even they weren't above 200. So this proves my point about lack of really big scores and low CoV, to some extent.

And those other names of batsmen who had high average and low CoV are all of great batsmen who consistently scored well, 30s. If we were talking about such a batsman, I wouldn't even be arguing with you.

Anwaar said:
Re: "Heck, even Bradman is on 56 on that list. Does that mean he was inconsistent"

Ranking isn't important. Focus on the value instead that shows him consistent. (ironically his value is pretty similar to SM's )

Point taken, and accepted. But let's keep the comparisons between SM and Bradman till SM averages over 50 at least. ;-)

Anwaar said:
Re: "You are only drawing one conclusion from Malik's relatively low CoV, and ignoring any other conclusions that can be made"

I am not (i hope). Please read the other posts on the topic.

Maybe, I'm only reading some of your posts, but I don't want to waste time reading this whole thread.

What I understood from the posts I read are that you are trying to prove that Malik is consistent. And in my view, scoring nice little 20s and 30s and not going on to score big is not Test class. You are happily ignoring the fact that Malik lacks big scores. And by saying again and again, that you would prefer a batsman who consistently scores around 35 over someone who averages over 50 and has a relatively high CoV, I thing you're suggesting you'd pick SM over YK. (I hope I'm wrong).

Black Zero · Jul 14, 2010

^^^
- You haven't commented on players with low average (at around 30 ) but with high CoV.
- High average players get higher cushion than a low average players get to have a same CoV. So no disadvantage/disadvantage of having high or low average as SD is divided by average.
- In other posts I have suggested that if a player reaches a cutoff value (X) with a very high reliability (v low CoV) then he should be preferred over a high averaged with v.low Reliability player to minimize the risks. (before I thought that X=35+-2, but its around ~ 38.82)
- Players with average of around 50 with very high CoV are harmful to teams' winning chances overall as you don't get, what you see (50). (copied from another post) "By the way YK has failed to cross 25 45%+, and 35 55%+ of the times, SM 60%+ and Zaheer Abbas 63%+ (Zaheer got avg of 44+ while Malik has 36+ and that reflects in the respective CoV)"
- If SM lowers his CoV by improving his average couple of points then there is strong case of his selection over YK (academically only, as both are out).

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

Best ODI Captain

Another Reason to Support Malik.

Best ODI captain Pakistan ever had.

Fallen King · Jul 17, 2010

This thread is still going on? Malik is not even playing. We knew Pakistan was going to lose even with presence of Yousuf/Younus, Pakistan was whitewashed by Australia many times.
We had to groom youngsters and that was the right decision PCB has made. Calling Younus / Yousuf is backward move, and that shows the sign of not moving on at all.

And don't you think hating without any reason continue to sound pathetic at all? You know what people say when they don't have their lives, and therefore, spend 24 hours of hating him does sound being obsessive?

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
Another Reason to Support Malik.

Best ODI captain Pakistan ever had.

Malik's ODI W/L ratio against the teams that Imran captained (Aus, Ind, WI, Eng, SL, NZ, SA): 11/23 = 48%.

One of the worst ODI captains.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

Yes its still going on.
I try to contribute to it on weekends.
Have presented so many data sets to clear misconceptions.

RE: Hatred/Liking for some player on masses basis:

Groups breed conformity @ http://www.spring.org.uk/2009/07/10-rules-that-govern-groups.php

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

MalikMohsin said:
We had to groom youngsters and that was the right decision PCB has made. Calling Younus / Yousuf is backward move, and that shows the sign of not moving on at all.

So, tell me something. Have we negotiated a deal with the Aussies to let us steal the "forward" players from their domestic system, or has Obama signed up to invest in our domestic system such that the next 3 on the list are jr Miandad, jr Imran, and jr Wasim?

Fallen King · Jul 17, 2010

^

You gotta take break. I mean some will let the hatred go ever just like Shahid Khan Afridi can not mature with his batting in Test. I am afraid i have to use this kind of comparison. Let them say whatever they want, but basically, they were trying to get inside your brain just to annoy you. That's why i didn't bother to discuss with them. You shouldn't . They will stop? Nevaaa

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
Malik's ODI W/L ratio against the teams that Imran captained (Aus, Ind, WI, Eng, SL, NZ, SA): 11/23 = 48%.

One of the worst ODI captains.

Fortunately, pick n choose is not permitted in an educational debate.
You are not in "Panchayat", where you can spin the facts by introducing qualifications.

Career vs Career comparison.

Malik is best
and wasim is at second spot.

Imran is not the worst, he's third best.

Fallen King · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
So, tell me something. Have we negotiated a deal with the Aussies to let us steal the "forward" players from their domestic system, or has Obama signed up to invest in our domestic system such that the next 3 on the list are jr Miandad, jr Imran, and jr Wasim?

Ask yourself, what make you think how Younus and Yousuf debuted? They replaced our former reliable middle order batsmen, and were groomed for the future. PCB had to take risk, but it paid off, and now, we must do the same with youngsters to groom them in the future. Cricket doesn't begin and stop with the same cricketer.

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
Fortunately, pick n choose is not permitted in an educational debate.
You are not in "Panchayat", where you can spin the facts by introducing qualifications.

Career vs Career comparison.

Malik is best
and wasim is at second spot.

Imran is not the worst, he's third best.

I'm sorry but I care the least about the manipulated data that you present. I have to compare apples to apples. Happy to stay "uneducated" that way.

Malik is one of the worst Pakistani ODI captains against the teams that Imran captained. Malik's own captaincy stats are decorated with wins over ZIM and BD - even a monkey as a captain could have produced the same results.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
I'm sorry but I care the least about the manipulated data that you present. I have to compare apples to apples. Happy to stay "uneducated" that way.

Malik is one of the worst Pakistani ODI captains against the teams that Imran captained. Malik's own captaincy stats are decorated with wins over ZIM and BD - even a monkey as a captain could have produced the same results.

I have passed your plea to ICC but they refused to remove the ODI status from those matches.

Not my fault.

You can try directly complaining to ICC about Zim and BD.
Till then Chao.

Big Mac · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
Malik's ODI W/L ratio against the teams that Imran captained (Aus, Ind, WI, Eng, SL, NZ, SA): 11/23 = 48%.

One of the worst ODI captains.

YK against the same teams: 8/21 = 38% :13:

Fallen King · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
I'm sorry but I care the least about the manipulated data that you present. I have to compare apples to apples. Happy to stay "uneducated" that way.

Malik is one of the worst Pakistani ODI captains against the teams that Imran captained. Malik's own captaincy stats are decorated with wins over ZIM and BD - even a monkey as a captain could have produced the same results.

Pakistan lost to Bangladesh in WC 99.
Pakistan lost to Ireland in WC 07

Pakistan lost to Zimbabwe at home - 97 or 98? Not sure

Sometimes, it's better not to devalue any contribution from the team against any team. Even England lost to Bangladesh in second ODI. :))

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Big Mac said:
YK against the same teams: 8/21 = 38%

And I assume this is in response to:

One of the worst ODI captains.

?

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

MalikMohsin said:
Pakistan lost to Bangladesh in WC 99.
Pakistan lost to Ireland in WC 07
Pakistan lost to Zimbabwe at home - 97 or 98? Not sure

Sometimes, it's better not to devalue any contribution from the team against any team. Even England lost to Bangladesh in second ODI.

Ummm, how does this change the fact that Malik's results are decorated with wins over ZIM and BD?

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
I have passed your plea to ICC but they refused to remove the ODI status from those matches.

And I've passed your stats to the PCB Chairman to consider Malik for the ODI captaincy, but the response that came back read something like: isn't this the guy I kicked out of captaincy in 2008 AFTER seeing those ZIM and BD results?

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

MalikMohsin said:
Pakistan lost to Bangladesh in WC 99.
Pakistan lost to Ireland in WC 07
Pakistan lost to Zimbabwe at home - 97 or 98? Not sure

Sometimes, it's better not to devalue any contribution from the team against any team. Even England lost to Bangladesh in second ODI.

Smart and wise people would brace the truth and accept the challenge.
But here finding escape routes is the ultimate aim of some posters and then start abusing.

Not a very healthy state of mind.

Big Mac · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
And I assume this is in response to:

?

If you're going to compare win/loss records it's only fair to look at how other captains did with similar squads. Shoaib Malik never had the luxury of Wasim/Waqar bowling at the start and end of an innings, he never had Saeed Anwar and Inzi scoring runs for him.

Younis Khan had more or less the same resources that Malik did and performed significantly worse against the same teams, doesn't really help your case that Malik is one of the worst ODI captains we've ever had.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
And I've passed your stats to the PCB Chairman to consider Malik for the ODI captaincy, but the response that came back read something like: isn't this the guy I kicked out of captaincy in 2008 AFTER seeing those ZIM and BD results?

Don't trust Butt, I'd suggest.

Butt is the same person, who showed Malik list of "potential" players for T20WC and Malik refused to see.

Butt is the same person who had to bend when Malik exerted little political pressure.

And we have seen Qadir, Qasim, Inti became history in few months time.
YK and MoYo lost captaincy in not very respectable way.

And we know that even when Ijaz and Yawar would be gone, Malik would still be in squad.

Anyway, Malik had categorically refused to become captain few times.

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Big Mac said:
Younis Khan had more or less the same resources that Malik did and performed significantly worse against the same teams, doesn't really help your case that Malik is one of the worst ODI captains we've ever had.

And YK's case matters here because?

1. The OP is comparing stats across decades. Imran, Wasim, and several others played / captained ODIs under substantially less batting-friendly situations, when bowling attacks among top teams were much more comparable.

2. As previously mentioned, Malik's stats are decorated with wins over BD and ZIM. IK's are not. YK's are not.

3. What part of one of the worst captains ever do you not understand?

Big Mac · Jul 17, 2010

So in summary:

You don't like Malik and never will no matter what.

Cheers.

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
Don't trust Butt, I'd suggest.

No need to trust Butt. Just need to see the end result: (1) Malik stripped of ODI captaincy, (2) Malik dropped from the squad, and (3) Malik passed over even after Afridigate.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
And YK's case matters here because?

1. The OP is comparing stats across decades. Imran, Wasim, and several others played / captained ODIs under substantially less batting-friendly situations, when bowling attacks among top teams were much more comparable.

2. As previously mentioned, Malik's stats are decorated with wins over BD and ZIM. IK's are not. YK's are not.

3. What part of one of the worst captains ever do you not understand?

Miandad is also one of the worst?

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

By the way, Imran's record also includes matches against Zim and BD.
Another escape route blocked!

Malik the best ODI captain for Pakistan!!!

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
Miandad is also one of the worst?

Looks like it.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
No need to trust Butt. Just need to see the end result: (1) Malik stripped of ODI captaincy, (2) Malik dropped from the squad, and (3) Malik passed over even after Afridigate.

Don't think chronology is comprehensive.

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
By the way, Imran's record also includes matches against Zim and BD.
Another escape route blocked!

Desperate attempts at the argument now, eh?

Imran's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 1.23
Malik's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 0.92

Big Mac · Jul 17, 2010

So let me get this straight, he's one of the worst ODI captains we've ever had because he's not Imran?

Fallen King · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
Desperate attempts at the argument now, eh?

Imran's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 1.23
Malik's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 0.92

It's not that bad for Malik considering the fact that Imran Khan is legend with the best team to lead, and Malik isn't. :14:

Couch Cricketer · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
Desperate attempts at the argument now, eh?

Imran's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 1.23
Malik's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 0.92

In Imran time SL team was what Bangladesh\Zim are today

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
Desperate attempts at the argument now, eh?

Imran's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 1.23
Malik's W/L ratio against top teams, excl. ZIM and BD: 0.92

desperate, that witty.

Its career vs career comparison.

I will include your concerns about Zim and BD as soon ICC nullify those matches that played against BD and Zim. Fair?

Till then, we can't do much as its official data. We can not change based on someone's liking or disliking.

Q: What is the Win /Loss ratio of Imran?
A: 54% Second Division

Q: Who got the best Win/Loss ration for Pakistan in ODI?
A: Malik, and he is the only one who got FIRST Division.

insaaniyat · Jul 17, 2010

All pakistani captain should know by now, dno't drop Malik from playing X1.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

Couch Cricketer said:
In Imran time SL team was what Bangladesh\Zim are today

Thats true, but we can't do much as SL was given status by ICC.
Not in Imran's hand.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

insaaniyat said:
All pakistani captain should know by now, dno't drop Malik from playing X1.

Yes, but for that, there is a very different reason

As I knew that Malik wasn't picked for 1st test. I am on record that "Afridi's days are numbered"

I was thinking about couple of months, but he couldn't survive a week

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Big Mac said:
So let me get this straight, he's one of the worst ODI captains we've ever had because he's not Imran?

MalikMohsin said:
It's not that bad for Malik considering the fact that Imran Khan is legend with the best team to lead, and Malik isn't.

Given that people here are not going to move a limb to look stats up themselves, here goes:

ODI W/L Ratios Against Aus, WI, Ind, SA, Eng, NZ, and SL:

Wasim Akram: 1.27
Imran Khan: 1.23
Inzamam: 1.15
Waqar: 1.04
Malik: 0.92
Miandad: 0.78

The universe of captains is what Anwaar used. I'm sure there are others compared to which Malik has done better on this metric. But, let's keep the argument within the original premise.

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
desperate, that witty.

Its career vs career comparison.

I will include your concerns about Zim and BD as soon ICC nullify those matches that played against BD and Zim. Fair?

Till then, we can't do much as its official data. We can not change based on someone's liking or disliking.

Q: What is the Win /Loss ratio of Imran?
A: 54% Second Division

Q: Who got the best Win/Loss ration for Pakistan in ODI?
A: Malik, and he is the only one who got FIRST Division.

Like I said, Malik can decorate this data in a frame in his bedroom, but since it isn't winning him an ODI captaincy let alone a place in the squad, the use of it is probably limited to breaking Sania down on moody evenings.

Q: Of the 6 presented, who are the worst ODI captains excl. matches against minnows?
A: Malik and Miandad.

Thank you.

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Couch Cricketer said:
In Imran time SL team was what Bangladesh\Zim are today

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe prove it.

Couch Cricketer · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
Given that people here are not going to move a limb to look stats up themselves, here goes:

ODI W/L Ratios Against Aus, WI, Ind, SA, Eng, NZ, and SL:

Wasim Akram: 1.27
Imran Khan: 1.23
Inzamam: 1.15
Waqar: 1.04
Malik: 0.92
Miandad: 0.78

The universe of captains is what Anwaar used. I'm sure there are others compared to which Malik has done better on this metric. But, let's keep the argument within the original premise.

And he was followed by YK, MY & Afridi
whose ratios are 0.4 0.2 0.2

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Couch Cricketer said:
And he was followed by YK, MY & Afridi
whose ratios are 0.4 0.2 0.2

Shrug. Tell it to Anwaar to include in his slides. He needs it more than I do.

Couch Cricketer · Jul 17, 2010

oh sorry afridi is 0.25 not .2

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

taaveez said:
Like I said, Malik can decorate this data in a frame in his bedroom, but since it isn't winning him an ODI captaincy[/U] let alone a place in the squad,
Thank you.

Do you think we have some agenda to forward these data set?

3rd highest average as an openers.... Is he looking for an opener spot?
Best Pakistani Captain....Is he wants to become captain again?

If you think so, then you are mistaken.

Rest we already addressed, we can't change official data.

No Problem

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

Couch Cricketer said:
And he was followed by YK, MY & Afridi
whose ratios are 0.4 0.2 0.2

Thanks...
We need a second list for these captains

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
Do you think we have some agenda to forward these data set?

Do you think I have some agenda to rid ZIM and BD of the ODI status? If yes, you are mistaken.

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
Rest we already addressed, we can't change official data.

Sorry, the use of that official data has no utility. Other than creating slides.

Unless you clean it up first to compare apples to apples. Then, a use might be to convince others of your hypothesis.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

ads101 · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
desperate, that witty.

Its career vs career comparison.

I will include your concerns about Zim and BD as soon ICC nullify those matches that played against BD and Zim. Fair?

Till then, we can't do much as its official data. We can not change based on someone's liking or disliking.

Q: What is the Win /Loss ratio of Imran?
A: 54% Second Division

Q: Who got the best Win/Loss ration for Pakistan in ODI?
A: Malik, and he is the only one who got FIRST Division.

Could someone tell me why exactly malik was dropped from captaincy. This is a genuine question, I don't actually remember.

Malik was a good ODI and T20 captain in my opinion. Even under afridi's captaincy, he was giving tips to afridi and helping him. If he had been given longer time, his captaincy would have only improved. Pakistan has a tendency of going against players after one or two failures. Malik never lost a series really badly, all series were either a tight loss or a win. You don't drop a person from captaincy if they're performing well.

Only issue is that Malik doesn't deserve a spot in the test line up with his current batting. His average is a low 36, which itself is boosted by a couple of not outs. He has made two centuries, on the same flat pitches in Sri Lanka. When he has come to bat, most times it has been low (mostly at 6) which is an easier position to bat than further up the order (Although one of his centuries was at an opener granted).

For a senior batsman it does him no favours batting at six. The PCB need to play him up the order if they want to make full use of him and allow him to improve and live up to the title of a senior batsman in the team. I think position at no.4 should be ideal. Allow the debutant to take his place at no.6, and play under less pressure.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

ads101 said:
Could someone tell me why exactly malik was dropped from captaincy. This is a genuine question, I don't actually remember.

Malik was a good ODI and T20 captain in my opinion. Even under afridi's captaincy, he was giving tips to afridi and helping him. If he had been given longer time, his captaincy would have only improved. Pakistan has a tendency of going against players after one or two failures. Malik never lost a series really badly, all series were either a tight loss or a win. You don't drop a person from captaincy if they're performing well.

Only issue is that Malik doesn't deserve a spot in the test line up with his current batting. His average is a low 36, which itself is boosted by a couple of not outs. He has made two centuries, on the same flat pitches in Sri Lanka. When he has come to bat, most times it has been low (mostly at 6) which is an easier position to bat than further up the order (Although one of his centuries was at an opener granted).

For a senior batsman it does him no favours batting at six. The PCB need to play him up the order if they want to make full use of him and allow him to improve and live up to the title of a senior batsman in the team. I think position at no.4 should be ideal. Allow the debutant to take his place at no.6, and play under less pressure.

- Political spectrum changed in Pakistan.
- Mush Resigned, Naseem resigned. Butt Came.
- Lawson Sacked.
- Yawer Saeed, Inti, Bari plus 8/9 players made an alliance against Malik.
- Labeled Malik a loner and Sacked him in favor of YK.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

ads101 said:
Could someone tell me why exactly malik was dropped from captaincy. This is a genuine question, I don't actually remember.

Malik was a good ODI and T20 captain in my opinion. Even under afridi's captaincy, he was giving tips to afridi and helping him. If he had been given longer time, his captaincy would have only improved. Pakistan has a tendency of going against players after one or two failures. Malik never lost a series really badly, all series were either a tight loss or a win. You don't drop a person from captaincy if they're performing well.

Only issue is that Malik doesn't deserve a spot in the test line up with his current batting. His average is a low 36, which itself is boosted by a couple of not outs. He has made two centuries, on the same flat pitches in Sri Lanka. When he has come to bat, most times it has been low (mostly at 6) which is an easier position to bat than further up the order (Although one of his centuries was at an opener granted).

For a senior batsman it does him no favours batting at six. The PCB need to play him up the order if they want to make full use of him and allow him to improve and live up to the title of a senior batsman in the team. I think position at no.4 should be ideal. Allow the debutant to take his place at no.6, and play under less pressure.

Malik is the captain of world's best team of any sport!
Sailkot Stallion, hasn't lost a single T20 match in last 5 years!!!!!

ads101 · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
Malik is the captain of world's best team of any sport!
Sailkot Stallion, hasn't lost a single T20 match in last 5 years!!!!!

Do you think malik deserves a test spot though and why?

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

ads101 said:
Only issue is that Malik doesn't deserve a spot in the test line up with his current batting. His average is a low 36, which itself is boosted by a couple of not outs. He has made two centuries, on the same flat pitches in Sri Lanka. When he has come to bat, most times it has been low (mostly at 6) which is an easier position to bat than further up the order (Although one of his centuries was at an opener granted).

If you browse up and see the post about CoV, he got very low CoV that proves that his average is not "boosted"

That data is based on runs per innings (to counter Not Out effect).

Re: Opener, he played 25% of times as an opener and he is third highest averaged opener for Pakistan. Browse couple of pages and you will get the stats.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

ads101 said:
Do you think malik deserves a test spot though and why?

Go through #705, there are lot of arguments and their rebuttals. You may find something that satisfy you.

Big Mac · Jul 17, 2010

ads101 said:
Could someone tell me why exactly malik was dropped from captaincy. This is a genuine question, I don't actually remember.

Got absolutely hammered by Sri Lanka in an ODI and enough time had passed for people to forget how Younis Khan had bottled it after Inzi's retirement for people to think YK would be a good replacement.

PCB did what they do best and commissioned a report to find an easy scapegoat for one heavy defeat instead of searching for ways to improve the team in the long term.

ads101 · Jul 17, 2010

Big Mac said:
Got absolutely hammered by Sri Lanka in an ODI and enough time had passed for people to forget how Younis Khan had bottled it after Inzi's retirement for people to think YK would be a good replacement.

PCB did what they do best and commissioned a report to find an easy scapegoat for one heavy defeat instead of searching for ways to improve the team in the long term.

but it was one odi wasn't it? The final score was 3-2, so he must have done something right to have won 2. Dropping him as captain after one bad game is ridiculous. Plus a pakistan batting collapse is rarely the fault of a captain.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

ads101 said:
but it was one odi wasn't it? The final score was 3-2, so he must have done something right to have won 2. Dropping him as captain after one bad game is ridiculous. Plus a pakistan batting collapse is rarely the fault of a captain.

http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/385749.html
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/385750.html
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/385751.html

Pakistan won first one, lost 2nd and 3rd

Please have a look at match 2 and 3.

ads101 · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
If you browse up and see the post about CoV, he got very low CoV that proves that his average is not "boosted"

That data is based on runs per innings (to counter Not Out effect).

Re: Opener, he played 25% of times as an opener and he is third highest averaged opener for Pakistan. Browse couple of pages and you will get the stats.

Then he should play as an opener really.

At the moment, if he is drafted into the team, he is most likely to bat at 6 (or perhaps 7). HE averages 34.47 at 6 and 24.28 at 7. Obviously playing down the order isn't working for him. In fact why did he ever stop playing as an opener? His last test as an opener, he scored 148 not out. Don't fix it if it ain't broken?

Big Mac · Jul 17, 2010

ads101 said:
Dropping him as captain after one bad game is ridiculous. Plus a pakistan batting collapse is rarely the fault of a captain.

You should know how things work by now.

Whether or not a collapse is the fault of a captain depends strictly on the number of friends he has in the media.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

ads101 said:
Then he should play as an opener really.

At the moment, if he is drafted into the team, he is most likely to bat at 6 (or perhaps 7). HE averages 34.47 at 6 and 24.28 at 7. Obviously playing down the order isn't working for him. In fact why did he ever stop playing as an opener? His last test as an opener, he scored 148 not out. Don't fix it if it ain't broken?

Its more to do with Politics and comfort zone.
Openers are always endangered species, always a series away from extinction, so no wanna take that risk.

ads101 · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/385749.html
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/385750.html
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/385751.html

Pakistan won first one, lost 2nd and 3rd

Please have a look at match 2 and 3.

so it was 2-1. Got confused to the series where he won 3-2 sorry.

In fact the team he had to play is a much worse bowling team than now (no ajmal, afridi's got more effective as of late, no aamer), and the batting side is about the same except for Younis khan (though now we have umar akmal who one would argue is the better ODI player anyway).

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

ads101 said:
so it was 2-1. Got confused to the series where he won 3-2 sorry.

In fact the team he had to play is a much worse bowling team than now (no ajmal, afridi's got more effective as of late, no aamer), and the batting side is about the same except for Younis khan (though now we have umar akmal who one would argue is the better ODI player anyway).

Have you noticed string of single digit scores by other players in #2 and #3?

SB, UG and SM were the only contributors.

ads101 · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
Have you noticed string of single digit scores by other players in #2 and #3?

SB, UG and SM were the only contributors.

well manzoor did do well in the first ODI, which is important to be noted.

Malik's stats are good in ODIs, especially since he's been moved around so much. As an ODI all rounder he's been in the top 5 for many years now. I personally don't doubt malik's usefulness in ODIs or T20s.

Tests are the problem. His record in tests isn't flattering to say the least. If he is a good opener then let him bat at opener (or perhaps even 3). However if he keeps playing at no.6 or 7, I don't see him cementing his test spot at all.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

ads101 said:
well manzoor did do well in the first ODI, which is important to be noted.

Malik's stats are good in ODIs, especially since he's been moved around so much. As an ODI all rounder he's been in the top 5 for many years now. I personally don't doubt malik's usefulness in ODIs or T20s.

Tests are the problem. His record in tests isn't flattering to say the least. If he is a good opener then let him bat at opener (or perhaps even 3). However if he keeps playing at no.6 or 7, I don't see him cementing his test spot at all.

He played 29 tests in 10 years.
about 3 tests a years,
You will find him in squad but not in playing 11.
Not in his hand.

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

ads101 said:
well manzoor did do well in the first ODI, which is important to be noted.

Malik's stats are good in ODIs, especially since he's been moved around so much. As an ODI all rounder he's been in the top 5 for many years now. I personally don't doubt malik's usefulness in ODIs or T20s.

Tests are the problem. His record in tests isn't flattering to say the least. If he is a good opener then let him bat at opener (or perhaps even 3). However if he keeps playing at no.6 or 7, I don't see him cementing his test spot at all.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=2502842&postcount=281

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=2502856&postcount=285

Amjid Javed · Jul 17, 2010

Looks like will have to put up with Malik in test side for a while now seen as though his two best mates are skipper and VC now.

Easa · Jul 17, 2010

Amjid Javed said:
Looks like will have to put up with Malik in test side for a while now seen as though his two best mates are skipper and VC now.

Here we go again...

iafzal · Jul 17, 2010

Amjid Javed said:
Looks like will have to put up with Malik in test side for a while now seen as though his two best mates are skipper and VC now.

But if he plays all the test in Eng and scores I have no problem with Malik. he should not skip the difficult pitches that is all.
He will not play all the matches just the one he knows he can score so at the end he will look as the best batsman and ready to be captain for SA test series.

Amjid Javed · Jul 17, 2010

Easa said:
Here we go again...

Id rather a half-fit & brainless Afridi play instead!

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

iafzal said:
But if he plays all the test in Eng and scores I have no problem with Malik. he should not skip the difficult pitches that is all.
He will not play all the matches just the one he knows he can score so at the end he will look as the best batsman and ready to be captain for SA test series.

Pakistan already lost first, he was benched in first. So technically he can't play ALL the tests in Eng.

Skipping matches is his decision?

Black Zero · Jul 17, 2010

Amjid Javed said:
Id rather a half-fit & brainless Afridi play instead!

Best ODI captain for Pakistan by some margin!

Amjid Javed · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
Best ODI captain for Pakistan by some margin!

Wow! Do you want a gold Medal for those stats.

Either your really Stupid or trying to act clever. I think you will find most of Maliks wins as Skipper came against Zimbos and Bangladesh! Great achievement. How many series did he win against non-minnows as skipper?

Only person your fooling is yourself! :))

)

Amjid Javed · Jul 17, 2010

Maliks Wins as Captain 24 Games (Against Minnows and W.I)

7 wins V Bangladesh, 5 v Zimbabwe, 1 V Hong Kong, 3 v West indies

I think the fact 16 of those came against ODI whipping boys really says it all!

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

MalikMohsin said:
Ask yourself, what make you think how Younus and Yousuf debuted? They replaced our former reliable middle order batsmen, and were groomed for the future. PCB had to take risk, but it paid off, and now, we must do the same with youngsters to groom them in the future. Cricket doesn't begin and stop with the same cricketer.

Incorrect. MoYo and YK debuted under the experience of players like Inzi, Anwer, and others. PCB didn't take any risk - in fact, minimized risk by making sure there were enough experienced batsmen who could mentor and develop the youngsters. This is why the two (MoYo and YK) are the top batsmen today that they are.

If you throw all your youngsters in the deep end of the pond, some of them will drown - when instead with the help of an experienced swimmer, they could have learnt to swim first and eventually become top athletes.

taaveez · Jul 17, 2010

Anwaar said:
Best ODI captain for Pakistan by some margin!

I hear Zong and Mobilink are looking for someone with a strong spam marketing skill set. Ability to do slides with twisted data is a bonus.

Black Zero · Jul 18, 2010

Amjid Javed said:
Maliks Wins as Captain 24 Games (Against Minnows and W.I)

7 wins V Bangladesh, 5 v Zimbabwe, 1 V Hong Kong, 3 v West indies

I think the fact 16 of those came against ODI whipping boys really says it all!

Taveez had raised this escape route and this is our response:
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=2759354&postcount=691

Black Zero · Jul 18, 2010

taaveez said:
I hear Zong and Mobilink are looking for someone with a strong spam marketing skill set. Ability to do slides with twisted data is a bonus.

That was for one living legend.

taaveez · Jul 18, 2010

Anwaar said:
Taveez has already blocked our escape route with this and this is our excuse:
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=2759354&postcount=691

Fixed.

insaaniyat · Jul 18, 2010

iafzal said:
But if he plays all the test in Eng and scores I have no problem with Malik. he should not skip the difficult pitches that is all.
He will not play all the matches just the one he knows he can score so at the end he will look as the best batsman and ready to be captain for SA test series.

He told you all this about Malik?

Black Zero · Jul 18, 2010

As Malik got the best win percentage among Pakistani captains for ODIs, time to move on to T20 Internationals and see how does he fare as compared to captains from Pakistani and the world:

taaveez · Jul 18, 2010

^^ Congrats. I see Clarke has a better record than him and he himself wants to give it to White. Something tells me a captain in T20s is worth a dime a dozen.

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