Should Naseem Shah play Test cricket?

[sharmaji]

I agree with you. My point was to give consistent chances to players (not Naseem necessarily) so that you have around 4-5 players in the XI with experience of 50+ test matches.

Who would you have in Naseem's place though? Hasan Ali? Hasnain? I am good with either of them, they just need to be backed for a while.

This would be fine, but his inclusion is a net negative for Pakistan right now and this is not possible in the test arena. Ultimately he isn't producing enough with the ball and his selection makes the tail extremely long.

If Shaheen and Abbas were taking wickets and could chip in with the bat it'd be a different story, but they aren't so Naseem has got to make way for someone who can unfortunately.

 

[Hasan123]

He is not ready for test match cricket. Yes he got some wickets but this was due to NZ looking for quick runs.

I think he has been massively overhyped but Misbah and the selectors have not helped him. They have thrown him into international cricket, playing away from home against Australia,New Zealand, and England. How is that fair on him?

He needs to play some first class cricket before being given this much responsibility and hype. If he was aged 23 or more,fans would be calling him rubbish and not understanding why he has been selected. His age is his main defense right now.

 

[MenInG]

Naseem speaking to PCB:

"Sometimes in Tests you bowl well with good line and length and put the ball in the right place but still dont get a wicket, and then sometimes you get wickets out of nowhere - that is the beauty of Test cricket"

"The captain told me to bowl bouncers and thankfully the plan worked"

"As a fast-bowler, if you dont get a wicket in the first spell, you start to wonder what is happening and why you are not getting wickets"

"But this is the thing about Test cricket that just because one spell was not that good doesnt mean the whole match is a loss for you; You have to go in with the same energy in the next spell with the thought that you can improve yourself in the next spell"

"A bowler can learn from his mistakes in the first innings"

"Whenever there is no swing then I go to bowling bouncers as that can trouble batsmen"

"
When you have a bowler like Shaheen Shah Afridi who is performing so well in all formats of the game, you do learn a lot from him to understand what he is doing which is making him so successful"

"I always discuss with him to find out what is that he is doing right which is getting him so much success"

 

[Slog]

He is not ready for test match cricket. Yes he got some wickets but this was due to NZ looking for quick runs.

I think he has been massively overhyped but Misbah and the selectors have not helped him. They have thrown him into international cricket, playing away from home against Australia,New Zealand, and England. How is that fair on him?

He needs to play some first class cricket before being given this much responsibility and hype. If he was aged 23 or more,fans would be calling him rubbish and not understanding why he has been selected. His age is his main defense right now.

His age is his main defence and he was picked by Misbah to give a ‘toffee’ to pace loving pakistan fans.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Naseem Shah is a leak in test cricket. He is not experienced enough to know what to do when getting slapped for a boundary. He hasn't bowled enough overs to even determine what length suits his height and the bounce he derives from the pitch. Had he played two more seasons of FC cricket, he would have been more mature and developed plans for different parts of the game, such as when the ball still has shine versus when it has gone soft.

He has potential, don't get me wrong about that, but our team is in a place where we cannot have weaknesses in both our bowling and batting. I'd rather have us be a good bowling side and a mediocre batting side versus being mediocre in both.

In my opinion, Hasan Ali should replace Naseem Shah until the latter gets more FC experience, at least one full season before we even consider him for foreign tours.

 

[shamaan]

Did you even watch the game last night or follow it on cricinfo?

Naseem was our best bowler in the 2nd innings. There is no denying this whatsoever. Anyone who watched the innings will testify, the second best bowlers were Faheem and Abbas. Naseem deserved all 3 of those wickets and possibly a 4th because he was bowling to a plan, and he executed the plan will with the wickets of Kane, Latham and Nichols. He would have taken 4 or 5 wickets if New Zealand wanted to bat a bit longer with that short ball plan in play and the 3/4 leg side boundary riders.

You cant win.when he does bowl short he gets blasted and when he does start bowling short its now cheap wickets

 

[shamaan]

4 wickets in the match , he can play the next match.

Even without the four wickets he should stil be playing the next match

 

[shamaan]

Naseem should not be dropped for the next test he will come good but it will take time need to invest in him

 

[Rana]

You cant win.when he does bowl short he gets blasted and when he does start bowling short its now cheap wickets

Im basically debating with guys who are providing jury verdicts and sentencing the kid back to the domestics based on cricinfo updates.

 

[Rana]

Second innings specialist ?

View attachment 105709

This is a very interesting stat. Quite early though to make anything out of this

 

[cricketjoshila]

Could be a blockbuster discussion for this forum haha.

StoneCold vs The Rock

 

[Thunderbolt14]

If Naseem Shah recovers pace, we need him in our Test team. I would actually replace Mohammad Abbas instead with Hassan Ali. Until then, my preferred attack is

Hassan Ali
Mohammad Abbas
Shaheen Afridi

 

[Saj]

When they do send him back to the wilderness of domestic cricket I do hope they don't just brush him aside and forget about him, as they have done with others over the years. I do hope they properly manage his progress, and watch him closely and monitor what he is doing, what he is working on and areas of improvement.

 

[Markhor]

Naseem Shah is a leak in test cricket. He is not experienced enough to know what to do when getting slapped for a boundary. He hasn't bowled enough overs to even determine what length suits his height and the bounce he derives from the pitch. Had he played two more seasons of FC cricket, he would have been more mature and developed plans for different parts of the game, such as when the ball still has shine versus when it has gone soft.

He has potential, don't get me wrong about that, but our team is in a place where we cannot have weaknesses in both our bowling and batting. I'd rather have us be a good bowling side and a mediocre batting side versus being mediocre in both.

In my opinion, Hasan Ali should replace Naseem Shah until the latter gets more FC experience, at least one full season before we even consider him for foreign tours.

Agreed, and I was saying precisely this 18 months ago so it's not with benefit of hindsight.

The standard of domestic cricket can be debated, but what cannot is the art of bowling long spells, learning to set up a batsman by creating micro pressure zones, and nailing a consistent length comes with FC experience. Obviously PCB would need to manage his workload.

Comparisons with the 2Ws are dated. Club cricket was far stronger then so the gulf between grassroots and internationals wasn't as wide meaning you could afford to fast-track the odd player. Both had a fast bowling captain in Imran standing at midon or midoff telling them what to do over by over.

 

[Mueez]

A picture worth a thousand words.

 

[Rana]

View attachment 105727

A picture worth a thousand words.

A picture of him conceding to the haters, he cant win over here unfortunately.

 

[Xoib]

Found it lol worthy in the match thread where Mamnoon ghaffar had a go at him for not saving the game and called him rubbish for it.

Sure #11's are batting one hour every other day to save tests vs this quality attack. Sure hate him as much as you want for his lack of results in his core skill but seriously calling him out for this?

 

[Mueez]

A picture of him conceding to the haters, he cant win over here unfortunately.

Unfortunately. But I know he will bounce back.

The two Shahs in this picture will bounce back and shut their critics mouth.

 

[Xoib]

Unfortunately. But I know he will bounce back.

The two Shahs in this picture will bounce back and shut their critics mouth.

I hope he can but unfortunately he is too undercooked and raw most likely carry an injure hence the drop in pace to really make a difference right now.

 

[Rana]

Unfortunately. But I know he will bounce back.

The two Shahs in this picture will bounce back and shut their critics mouth.

it was saddening to see a so called 'respected poster' pop up in the final partnership of the game when both Shaheen and Naseem were fighting for a draw and just commending Shaheen for having a fighting Test match.

 

[Mueez]

I hope he can but unfortunately he is too undercooked and raw most likely carry an injure hence the drop in pace to really make a difference right now.

He bowled much better in the second innings and also this was his second match after injury if I’m not wrong. He will soon find his rhythm. Expect him to hit 145kph in the next match.

 

[Mueez]

it was saddening to see a so called 'respected poster' pop up in the final partnership of the game when both Shaheen and Naseem were fighting for a draw and just commending Shaheen for having a fighting Test match.

I wonder how ‘respected posted’ would’ve fared against Southee and Boult whilst facing the new ball.

It’s easier to criticize from your home than facing the chin music on the pitch.

 

[Bewal Express]

When they do send him back to the wilderness of domestic cricket I do hope they don't just brush him aside and forget about him, as they have done with others over the years. I do hope they properly manage his progress, and watch him closely and monitor what he is doing, what he is working on and areas of improvement.

As we know there is more chance of me being the World's richest man than any such processes in the PCB. As I said yesterday, Naaeem has to be clear in his own mind how will get batman out. ATM his seam doesn't allow him to swing the ball, and that is, along with regaining his pace, is his biggest work ons.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

As we know there is more chance of me being the World's richest man than any such processes in the PCB. As I said yesterday, Naaeem has to be clear in his own mind how will get batman out. ATM his seam doesn't allow him to swing the ball, and that is, along with regaining his pace, is his biggest work ons.

There are more things to the art of bowling than just seam position.
In fact his seam position, wrist dexterity are his strengths.
His run up, allignment and positioning at the crease are the problems. These are so glaring that they undo all the natural ability and gifts that he posesses.

 

[Rajdeep]

From my observation, Shaheen Shah Afridi and Abbas both are much better bowler than Naseem Shah. He looks undercooked and not yet ready for international cricket.

Also, pls dont make the mistake of including him in LOI side. With that height, straight up seam bowling and lack of variation he will be a dream bowler to face. Keep him up in the mix for test cricket only.

 

[Bewal Express]

There are more things to the art of bowling than just seam position.
In fact his seam position, wrist dexterity are his strengths.
His run up, allignment and positioning at the crease are the problems. These are so glaring that they undo all the natural ability and gifts that he posesses.

He has become a terrible bowler for a test team. His edges don't even carry because 74mph is too slow. As far as seam position goes, can you name those bowlers with bad seam positions that are successful. He is basically Darren Stevens playing international cricket, his record recently has been poor and it ain't going to get better.

 

[ShahidDar08]

Not yet ready to play test cricket, also Abas is pathetic and we need to find atleast 2 more fast bowlers like Shaheen Afridi.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

He has become a terrible bowler for a test team. His edges don't even carry because 74mph is too slow. As far as seam position goes, can you name those bowlers with bad seam positions that are successful. He is basically Darren Stevens playing international cricket, his record recently has been poor and it ain't going to get better.

74mph?
I was talking about Naseem. Who are you talking about?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

All this talk about Naseem but i think Abbas should be the one dropped. 78 mph won't cut it at this level. He needs to be about 3 mph quicker on average to be back to his best like was at his best in 2018. Naseem has a lot of work to do I suppose but he has plenty of time on his hands at that age. Abbas chapter needs to be closed for good!

 

[Bewal Express]

74mph?
I was talking about Naseem. Who are you talking about?

Abbas

 

[Titan24]

Naseem was always going to play test cricket however, masterminds of Pak cricket have forced test cricket down his throat too early.

 

[Bewal Express]

Naseem was always going to play test cricket however, masterminds of Pak cricket have forced test cricket down his throat too early.

Let's face it, if he wasn't in the team,everyone would on here and elsewhere would be going mad. Its good he was played because he was the new big thing and he hasn't turned out to be as good as we had hoped for. Most bowlers evolve their actions for the better, his action and pace have regressed. Its a long way back for him.

 

[Muddaser]

Needs to play ever game possible. There's no other replacement.

If someone needs replacing it is Abbas.

Hasnain is the only other option.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

Abbas

Why all of a sudden bring him into the discussion when we were discussing Naseem?

On Abbas; his skills with the ball are not the issue.
He isnt an out and out swing bowler. He can swing it away, but he predominantly uses the wobbly seam, or the 3 quarter seam to get the job done.

Had he been 5, 6 mph quicker, like he was 2 years ago, he would have been creating havoc everywhere.

However, at that pace, no matter what you do, the batsman just has enough time to adjust.

Even Mohammad Asif would be neutralized if he started bowling at 120-125 kph.
That speed is just not good enough for a front line seamer.

 

[Bewal Express]

Why all of a sudden bring him into the discussion when we were discussing Naseem?

On Abbas; his skills with the ball are not the issue.
He isnt an out and out swing bowler. He can swing it away, but he predominantly uses the wobbly seam, or the 3 quarter seam to get the job done.

Had he been 5, 6 mph quicker, like he was 2 years ago, he would have been creating havoc everywhere.

However, at that pace, no matter what you do, the batsman just has enough time to adjust.

Even Mohammad Asif would be neutralized if he started bowling at 120-125 kph.
That speed is just not good enough for a front line seamer.

I didn't see the full context. Wrong thread

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

From my observation, Shaheen Shah Afridi and Abbas both are much better bowler than Naseem Shah. He looks undercooked and not yet ready for international cricket.

Also, pls dont make the mistake of including him in LOI side. With that height, straight up seam bowling and lack of variation he will be a dream bowler to face. Keep him up in the mix for test cricket only.

Afridi is better no doubt, Abbas is only useful in seaming conditions as he is a medium pacer.

Shah is definitely still raw, but then so are most of the other contenders such as Rauf and Hasnain. The rest simply aren't good enough.

 

[MenInG]

Think Prof Mian talking about Naseem?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">International stage is for the Product to perform. Talent needs to be Groomed,Polished at domestic & academy level until they become a PRODUCT to represent at National level. If it make sense to someone <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MasoomanaAdvice?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MasoomanaAdvice</a></p>— Mohammad Hafeez (@MHafeez22) <a href="https://twitter.com/MHafeez22/status/1344187194244796419?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 30, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Rajdeep]

Think Prof Mian talking about Naseem?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">International stage is for the Product to perform. Talent needs to be Groomed,Polished at domestic & academy level until they become a PRODUCT to represent at National level. If it make sense to someone <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MasoomanaAdvice?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MasoomanaAdvice</a></p>— Mohammad Hafeez (@MHafeez22) <a href="https://twitter.com/MHafeez22/status/1344187194244796419?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 30, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

For a minute, i read that #MasoomanaAdvice as #MamoonsAdvice and was like...what?? )

 

[Bewal Express]

Why all of a sudden bring him into the discussion when we were discussing Naseem?

On Abbas; his skills with the ball are not the issue.
He isnt an out and out swing bowler. He can swing it away, but he predominantly uses the wobbly seam, or the 3 quarter seam to get the job done.

Had he been 5, 6 mph quicker, like he was 2 years ago, he would have been creating havoc everywhere.

However, at that pace, no matter what you do, the batsman just has enough time to adjust.

Even Mohammad Asif would be neutralized if he started bowling at 120-125 kph.
That speed is just not good enough for a front line seamer.

The wobbly seam works when you also realise what happens before its bowled. All the best bowlers( Asif, Anderson etc)of the wobbly seam also have the perfect seam for outswing. They also have normal inswing and then use the wobbly seam for surprise sharp in movement. Abbas has none of that, this is all he has and all done at 75-78 mph. Not good enough

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

The wobbly seam works when you also realise what happens before its bowled. All the best bowlers( Asif, Anderson etc)of the wobbly seam also have the perfect seam for outswing. They also have normal inswing and then use the wobbly seam for surprise sharp in movement. Abbas has none of that, this is all he has and all done at 75-78 mph. Not good enough

Abbas does have the outswinger.
I am not sure why you haven't seen that. It doesnt hoop but he does have it.
Also, there have been very few bowlers who have consistently bowled both swings with the new ball.
It is usually the English seamers who have this and Anderson is the pinnacle of that.

For example, Asif seldom used the inswinger. It was always the in-seamer with him.
Amir doesnt have an inswinger to the lefties, or atleast does not use on it at all.
Even Southee only relies on outswing snd then uses the wobbly seam to create doubt.

Abbas has a very good skillset, so much so that he skittled an aussie side on the most barren tracks in tge workd.
His problem is the lack of speed. Just watch his bowling in 2018 and compare it to now. There is a marked difference.
He was peaking at 137 kph and averaging at 132 kph in England and the West indies.
That has reduced by 10 kph now, and hence his effectiveness has gone down considerably.

 

[MenInG]

Think Prof Mian talking about Naseem?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">International stage is for the Product to perform. Talent needs to be Groomed,Polished at domestic & academy level until they become a PRODUCT to represent at National level. If it make sense to someone <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MasoomanaAdvice?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MasoomanaAdvice</a></p>— Mohammad Hafeez (@MHafeez22) <a href="https://twitter.com/MHafeez22/status/1344187194244796419?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 30, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

We asked Prof about this tweet and if it was meant for anyone in particular? His 'Masoomana' answer:

"Not for any individual but for betterment of Pakistan cricket - Overall mindset"

 

[Bewal Express]

Abbas does have the outswinger.
I am not sure why you haven't seen that. It doesnt hoop but he does have it.
Also, there have been very few bowlers who have consistently bowled both swings with the new ball.
It is usually tge English seamers who have this and Anderson is the pinnacle of that.

For example, Asif seldom used the inswinger. It was always the in-seamer with him.
Amir doesnt have an inswinger to the lefties, or atleast does not use on it at all.
Even Southee only relies on outswing snd then uses the wobbly seam to create doubt.

Abbas has a very good skillset, so much so that he skittled an aussie side on the most barren tracks in tge workd.
His problem is the lack of speed. Just watch his bowling in 2018 and compare it to now. There is a marked difference.
He was peaking at 137 kph and averaging at 132 kph in England and the West indies.
That has reduced by 10 kph now, and hence his effectiveness has gone down considerably.

Its not outswing,its more out cut and its not consistent and that's the reason his in spin isn't working. His skill set worked on low slow Dubai wickets and no doubt it was a great achievement but like Yasir, he has struggled on normal test wickets. He is finished as a international bowler on good wickets. Lets hope he can have one last hurrah

 

[deep82]

8 tests, 20 wickets.
Not good enough, so far.

Time for him to spend couple of seasons in first class and try again in Int. Cricket.

 

[PakHammer]

I wonder if they will drop him for next match? Misbah will need to win the next test match or it will be two lost test series in a row be it in difficult conditions. PCB have already dumped Misbah from the chief selector role and it wont surprise if we have a new coach for the South Africa test series.

 

[Mamoon]

We asked Prof about this tweet and if it was meant for anyone in particular? His 'Masoomana' answer:

"Not for any individual but for betterment of Pakistan cricket - Overall mindset"

Well left by Professor. Didn’t poke at an out-swinger for once.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I wonder if they will drop him for next match? Misbah will need to win the next test match or it will be two lost test series in a row be it in difficult conditions. PCB have already dumped Misbah from the chief selector role and it wont surprise if we have a new coach for the South Africa test series.

They can drop him by all means, he is far from the finished article, but just don't be expecting miracles from his replacement. Pakistan only has one genuine class pace bowler and that is Shaheen. The rest are either medium pace or similar standard to Naseem.

 

[Rana]

Let’s replace 17 year old Shaheen Afridi with 36 year old Sohail Khan in the 2nd Test.

Just Pakistan fan things...

 

[Kroll]

Let’s replace 17 year old Shaheen Afridi with 36 year old Sohail Khan in the 2nd Test.

Just Pakistan fan things...

Ideally someone in the middle, not a sixth former and not an uncle that'll need a supplement of oxygen to bowl in the 2nd innings.

 

[Rana]

Ideally someone in the middle, not a sixth former and not an uncle that'll need a supplement of oxygen to bowl in the 2nd innings.

Well you can give Harris Rauf the chance to turn Christchurch into the streets of Rawalpindi

 

[thecrusade911]

There are more things to the art of bowling than just seam position.
In fact his seam position, wrist dexterity are his strengths.
His run up, allignment and positioning at the crease are the problems. These are so glaring that they undo all the natural ability and gifts that he posesses.

Please enlighten us with the natural ability and gifts he possesses. Pace is the only thing he has got. He can't swing it, can't seam like SEAM it. He doesn't know how to setup a batsman. Only thing he has is his pace which is not everything. Just look at the opposite team. All NZ bowlers bowl in 130s and they have beaten India and now Pakistan. Bumrah, Hazlewood, Cummins and Siraj are taking wickets in Australia, all are bowling in 135-140. If you have required skills with decent pace, you can be a champion bowler. Unfortunately, Naseem has pace but no skills to be good enough at the highest level.

 

[thecrusade911]

Afridi is better no doubt, Abbas is only useful in seaming conditions as he is a medium pacer.

Shah is definitely still raw, but then so are most of the other contenders such as Rauf and Hasnain. The rest simply aren't good enough.

Sohail Khan should play next match. He can't do worse than Naseem plus he is a very good number 8 batsman as well.

 

[Rana]

Sohail Khan should play next match. He can't do worse than Naseem plus he is a very good number 8 batsman as well.

Great long term thinking my bro. Guess what, Sohail khan will be back in the PCB retirement home once they return back to Pakistan

 

[Shazzam]

Let’s replace 17 year old Shaheen Afridi with 36 year old Sohail Khan in the 2nd Test.

Just Pakistan fan things...

As long as Sohail Khan can take wickets we will be fine. Although it would be fine seeing Naseem have another Test where he makes a fool of himself.

 

[Rana]

As long as Sohail Khan can take wickets we will be fine. Although it would be fine seeing Naseem have another Test where he makes a fool of himself.

Our premier bowler in this side (Shaheen) took 4 wickets in the match...

Let’s imagine best case scenario that Sohail Khan does come of well for one game, maybe also the next series...would you like him to cling on for the next 2 years?

 

[Shazzam]

Our premier bowler in this side (Shaheen) took 4 wickets in the match...

Let’s imagine best case scenario that Sohail Khan does come of well for one game, maybe also the next series...would you like him to cling on for the next 2 years?

I won’t say 2 years cause he is nearing the end of his career. I would be fine if he’s part of our Test team for temporary bases till Hasan Ali performs well enough to join the team. In Test cricket we need 20 wickets if Sohail Khan can provide that assistance we are lacking it will be good for Pakistan cricket. Naseem should go back to domestic to develop his skills. Keeping him in the team won’t benefit Pakistan nor him. As international cricket is not some grooming ground for unfinished products. Naseem is still very young. He can go off grinding in domestic for few years.

 

[Rana]

I won’t say 2 years cause he is nearing the end of his career. I would be fine if he’s part of our Test team for temporary bases till Hasan Ali performs well enough to join the team. In Test cricket we need 20 wickets if Sohail Khan can provide that assistance we are lacking it will be good for Pakistan cricket. Naseem should go back to domestic to develop his skills. Keeping him in the team won’t benefit Pakistan nor him. As international cricket is not some grooming ground for unfinished products. Naseem is still very young. He can go off grinding in domestic for few years.

Ok I may have raised this point here in this thread...how do you develop the skills to set up batsmen like Kane Williamson, Steven Smith and Joe Root...in their home turf from the Pakistani domestic circuit?

Let’s say Naseem (the one who everyone wants dropped) is to be replaced in his situation...who is that bowler that has mastered these skills from our Domestic set up to walk into this side and set up those 3 names that I mentioned?

If you have an easy excuse to drop someone, you most certainly should be able to produce a solution. Are you 100% convinced Naseem is unfairly taking someone’s spot in the Domestics who will show us the art of bowling to Kane Williamson and Steve Smith?

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Ok I may have raised this point here in this thread...how do you develop the skills to set up batsmen like Kane Williamson, Steven Smith and Joe Root...in their home turf from the Pakistani domestic circuit?

Let’s say Naseem (the one who everyone wants dropped) is to be replaced in his situation...who is that bowler that has mastered these skills from our Domestic set up to walk into this side and set up those 3 names that I mentioned?

If you have an easy excuse to drop someone, you most certainly should be able to produce a solution. Are you 100% convinced Naseem is unfairly taking someone’s spot in the Domestics who will show us the art of bowling to Kane Williamson and Steve Smith?

Good post. We have to accept there isn’t any domestic fast bowler with those skills, except maybe Hassan Ali who only made his comeback from injury AFTER everyone had already left for New Zealand. We have good limited overs bench strength but very empty as far as Test bowlers go. And even Hassan can’t play that enforcer role that Naseem does well (when he’s fit).

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

Please enlighten us with the natural ability and gifts he possesses. Pace is the only thing he has got. He can't swing it, can't seam like SEAM it. He doesn't know how to setup a batsman. Only thing he has is his pace which is not everything. Just look at the opposite team. All NZ bowlers bowl in 130s and they have beaten India and now Pakistan. Bumrah, Hazlewood, Cummins and Siraj are taking wickets in Australia, all are bowling in 135-140. If you have required skills with decent pace, you can be a champion bowler. Unfortunately, Naseem has pace but no skills to be good enough at the highest level.

He is indeed gifted, and it is not just for the pace he bowls at.

Contrary to what you have observed, he can swing the ball both ways, and has a natural shoulder and wrist action, but all of this is not amounting to anything because of how and where he is bowling from.
He bowls from too wide of the crease and his action/allignment and run up dont compliment each other.
There are reasons for this because his action was changed recently to arrest his back issues.
As a result, he hasnt quite learned how to execute it properly.
I have highlighted this repeatedly over the last year, yet our bowling coach who is paid to do this hasnt identified the problem.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

He is indeed gifted, and it is not just for the pace he bowls at.

Contrary to what you have observed, he can swing the ball both ways, and has a natural shoulder and wrist action, but all of this is not amounting to anything because of how and where he is bowling from.
He bowls from too wide of the crease and his action/allignment and run up dont compliment each other.
There are reasons for this because his action was changed recently to arrest his back issues.
As a result, he hasnt quite learned how to execute it properly.
I have highlighted this repeatedly over the last year, yet our bowling coach who is paid to do this hasnt identified the problem.

Can Naseem bowl at 145 with this remodeled action? Or do you reckon he should go back to the older action and runup? Or something in between?

Is bowling from close to the stumps the only thing he needs to do?

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

Good post. We have to accept there isn’t any domestic fast bowler with those skills, except maybe Hassan Ali who only made his comeback from injury AFTER everyone had already left for New Zealand. We have good limited overs bench strength but very empty as far as Test bowlers go. And even Hassan can’t play that enforcer role that Naseem does well (when he’s fit).

Naseem has technical problems, which have made him less than half the bowler he very easily can be.

For those to be rectified, he needs time off with an actual bowling coach and then time for execution in thr middle, for which a season or two of first class cricket is needed.

 

[Rana]

Let me give wrist slit fans some more context to the first innings...

Shaheen Shah Afridi. Bang on target, excellent work to remove Latham and Blundell. Abbas does what he usually does, keep things neat and tidy.

Naseem’s spell now comes after a 2nd change with guess who at the crease?

1. Kane Williamson, arguably the best batsman in the world right now. He is in absolute control of his batting. Playing at home also

2. Ross Taylor who is playing his 100th Test match with an average of 45. This is another serious, serious batsman and he is better than all the Test+Domestic batsmen in Pakistan right now to say the least about his quality.

-so Naseem Shah is being judged for not having a plan on how to get these two out in an initial spell which looked very painful and heart breaking for those who are emotionally invested in the progress of this young man.

Never the less, Test cricket is the hardest format and only the best will survive. Naseem eventually was unlucky to not pick up Nichols early on in his innings, and there was a ‘plan’ as you like with the fine leg set up for the hook shot, with Abbas dropped.

The 2nd innings required discipline, defensive strategy with NZ looking for quick runs. Now if Naseem was as poor as he is being made out to be, then NZ had the perfect bowler to target for 7-8 runs per over and get those runs that they wanted to get in a quick burst.

Instead, a ‘plan’ was set up by the captain. A fine leg, Deep Square leg, Deep Mid wicket, two fielders inside the circle around the square leg and 45 were deployed. Naseem was asked by his captain to initiate a body line barrage of short and hostile deliveries asking the high quality batsmen Kane Williamson, Tom Latham, Ross Taylor and Henry Nichols to take on the short ball with the leg side packed for those quick runs. Guess what, the ‘plan’ worked. Naseem was on his way to take 5 or 6 wickets with this ‘plan’ but NZ clearly wary of the time they needed to bowl Pakistan out declared after 5 wickets, out of which Naseem took 3 (60%) and Abbas took 1 (20%) and one run out.

On this basis, fans are asking Naseem Shah to be dropped from the 2nd Test?

 

[Shazzam]

Ok I may have raised this point here in this thread...how do you develop the skills to set up batsmen like Kane Williamson, Steven Smith and Joe Root...in their home turf from the Pakistani domestic circuit?

You do that by learning how to set up batsmen by bowling in proper areas consistently. Domestic cricket is used to practice your craft so your ready for international cricket. There is enough footage out there of the batsmen you mentioned for a player to figure out what channels he needs to bowl. In my opinion you can’t learn to bowl in the proper areas consistently when you are playing international cricket alone.

Let’s say Naseem (the one who everyone wants dropped) is to be replaced in his situation...who is that bowler that has mastered these skills from our Domestic set up to walk into this side and set up those 3 names that I mentioned?

There is Tabish Khan, Sohail Khan, Hasan Ali, Junaid Khan, Wahab Riaz etc. I could name more if I looked at the list. Our bowling has not dried up. Pakistan is known for having great fast bowling talent are you really telling me we can’t find a replacement for Naseem? Lol

If you have an easy excuse to drop someone, you most certainly should be able to produce a solution. Are you 100% convinced Naseem is unfairly taking someone’s spot in the Domestics who will show us the art of bowling to Kane Williamson and Steve Smith?

Yes I am 100 percent convinced Naseem is not ready yet and is getting pushed too soon for Test cricket. If this was Bangladesh I would understand why we need to resort to a unfinished bowler in our time of need. But this is Pakistan cricket. We have bowlers in our domestic who have gotten Kane Williamson out. We do not need to bring in a 17 year old who is still lost in bowling proper consistent channels to take up a spot.

 

[Rana]

You do that by learning how to set up batsmen by bowling in proper areas consistently. Domestic cricket is used to practice your craft so your ready for international cricket. There is enough footage out there of the batsmen you mentioned for a player to figure out what channels he needs to bowl. In my opinion you can’t learn to bowl in the proper areas consistently when you are playing international cricket alone.



There is Tabish Khan, Sohail Khan, Hasan Ali, Junaid Khan, Wahab Riaz etc. I could name more if I looked at the list. Our bowling has not dried up. Pakistan is known for having great fast bowling talent are you really telling me we can’t find a replacement for Naseem? Lol



Yes I am 100 percent convinced Naseem is not ready yet and is getting pushed too soon for Test cricket. If this was Bangladesh I would understand why we need to resort to a unfinished bowler in our time of need. But this is Pakistan cricket. We have bowlers in our domestic who have gotten Kane Williamson out. We do not need to bring in a 17 year old who is still lost in bowling proper consistent channels to take up a spot.

Ok. I can’t ask you to provide me with proof that the Pakistani domestic scene teaches bowlers on how to set up traps against Steve Smith, Kane Williamson and Joe Root. But maybe you can show me spells, cite passages of play where the Pakistani fast bowlers who have apparently learnt this art and are better than Naseem can demonstrate what they have done against middle order Batsmen who average 50+ in domestic cricket?

Please show me because I would then honestly evaluate this stubborn stance of mine where I do not believe the domestic cricket of ANY country let alone Pakistan can not prepare you to make master-stroke plans against ATG batsmen in their prime.

 

[Rana]

[MENTION=150451]Shazzam[/MENTION] has named 5 bowlers who could possibly replace Naseem Shah as they know how to ‘set up’ batsmen

1. Tabish Khan (aged 36)
2. Junaid Khan
3. Wahab Riaz (Retired, aged 37)
4. Sohail Khan (aged 36)
5. Hassan Ali

Three of them are the average age of 36, a very interesting number these days. One is Junaid Khan, not sure why he is in contention again?

The 5th is Hassan Ali. He is a good option considering his fc form right now, but why should he replace Naseem and not Abbas?

 

[sabre1486]

Ok I may have raised this point here in this thread...how do you develop the skills to set up batsmen like Kane Williamson, Steven Smith and Joe Root...in their home turf from the Pakistani domestic circuit?

Let’s say Naseem (the one who everyone wants dropped) is to be replaced in his situation...who is that bowler that has mastered these skills from our Domestic set up to walk into this side and set up those 3 names that I mentioned?

If you have an easy excuse to drop someone, you most certainly should be able to produce a solution. Are you 100% convinced Naseem is unfairly taking someone’s spot in the Domestics who will show us the art of bowling to Kane Williamson and Steve Smith?

My main issue with Naseem at the moment is the alarming drop in pace. Maybe if he can keep up average speeds for longer with more FC experience he will be more threatening. This last test performance was absolutely not up to standard. If he can build up stamina and keep his pace up he will learn how to work batsmen out as well.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

Can Naseem bowl at 145 with this remodeled action? Or do you reckon he should go back to the older action and runup? Or something in between?

Is bowling from close to the stumps the only thing he needs to do?

His running technique is incorrect as he doesnt use his hips while running. Therefore, this shortening of the runup has reduced his momentum even more than what it would do to someone else.

His action is still the same as it was a year ago, he is just not executing it properly and perhaps the run up shortening, on top of his recent injury/covid has has played a part.

He still isn't a true side-on bowler, because he doesnt pivid properly by using his intercostal and glute muscles. Instead, he relies on the bowling shoulder predominantly to get all his pace. It could be possible that he has lost muscle mass on his shoulder and hence lost some strength.

His run up also doesnt complement his action.
He needs an angular approach to the crease, which will allow him to bowl more from inside, or closer off the stumps.

 

[ahmadharis1]

Naseem Shah needs more time in domestics, ideally someone like Sameen Gul or Mir Hamza would have been given a go this tour

 

[hur rizvi]

His running technique is incorrect as he doesnt use his hips while running. Therefore, this shortening of the runup has reduced his momentum even more than what it would do to someone else.

His action is still the same as it was a year ago, he is just not executing it properly and perhaps the run up shortening, on top of his recent injury/covid has has played a part.

He still isn't a true side-on bowler, because he doesnt pivid properly by using his intercostal and glute muscles. Instead, he relies on the bowling shoulder predominantly to get all his pace. It could be possible that he has lost muscle mass on his shoulder and hence lost some strength.

His run up also doesnt complement his action.
He needs an angular approach to the crease, which will allow him to bowl more from inside, or closer off the stumps.

If his action is same he should be encouraged to go back to his old run-up

 

[Rana]

My main issue with Naseem at the moment is the alarming drop in pace. Maybe if he can keep up average speeds for longer with more FC experience he will be more threatening. This last test performance was absolutely not up to standard. If he can build up stamina and keep his pace up he will learn how to work batsmen out as well.

I’ve been asking this question a million times everywhere but not one has produced a response. What was the average speed of bowlers in this match from both sides? No one has provided a response to this question.

 

[Shoaibbtt]

I’ve been asking this question a million times everywhere but not one has produced a response. What was the average speed of bowlers in this match from both sides? No one has provided a response to this question.

He apparently bowls 150 and i haven't seen raw pace from him.

 

[sabre1486]

I’ve been asking this question a million times everywhere but not one has produced a response. What was the average speed of bowlers in this match from both sides? No one has provided a response to this question.

genuine question what would be the relevance of other bowler's speeds? because of speedgun measurement differences ?

 

[hur rizvi]

I’ve been asking this question a million times everywhere but not one has produced a response. What was the average speed of bowlers in this match from both sides? No one has provided a response to this question.

No other bowler possesses the ability to bowl 145 or thereabouts. Only Naseem had that ability and his pace was down by 10 kph atleast. Other bowlers bowled at speeds that they usually bowl at

 

[Titan24]

Let's face it, if he wasn't in the team,everyone would on here and elsewhere would be going mad. Its good he was played because he was the new big thing and he hasn't turned out to be as good as we had hoped for. Most bowlers evolve their actions for the better, his action and pace have regressed. Its a long way back for him.

I disagree as I cant think of any thread or dont remember many posts that talked about fast tracking of Naseem Shah. Many posters didnt even know much about Naseem or his pace. Yes fans who knew about him naturally were excited for a teenager bowler mid high 140 kph but, I dont think any one said he was ready for international cricket. A teenage bowling at good pace with a decent action is naturally considered a "prospect" and was talked about in the academies but, that doesnt mean he was ready for test cricket straight after half a season.

You are confusing regular talks about selecting Saud Shakeel, Sameen Gul etc. with fast tracking of youngsters. Saud and co have performed in domestics and have played considerable amount of FC.

Shaheen is already being developed and inducting Naseem after half a season with him could not have been justified in any way.

 

[Titan24]

I’ve been asking this question a million times everywhere but not one has produced a response. What was the average speed of bowlers in this match from both sides? No one has provided a response to this question.

Average speed was pretty low overall from both the sides and thats why despite being way down on speed Naseem still had a decent average speed in the context. I dont have the exact numbers and its based upon my viewing experience and following the speed gun throughout the match.

Having said that, Naseem's pace was down based upon what he was bowling couple of months ago.

 

[Titan24]

Regarding his pace, Pak management needs to answer how exactly Naseem has been training. Was he even 100% fit as on numerous occasions he was looking uncomfortable and there seemed to be a problem around his groin area (He was out because of groin injury just recently).

 

[Bewal Express]

I disagree as I cant think of any thread or dont remember many posts that talked about fast tracking of Naseem Shah. Many posters didnt even know much about Naseem or his pace. Yes fans who knew about him naturally were excited for a teenager bowler mid high 140 kph but, I dont think any one said he was ready for international cricket. A teenage bowling at good pace with a decent action is naturally considered a "prospect" and was talked about in the academies but, that doesnt mean he was ready for test cricket straight after half a season.

You are confusing regular talks about selecting Saud Shakeel, Sameen Gul etc. with fast tracking of youngsters. Saud and co have performed in domestics and have played considerable amount of FC.

Shaheen is already being developed and inducting Naseem after half a season with him could not have been justified in any way.

He would have played by now because the quality of the others is just as poor without the premise of a better tomorrow. I don't have problem with his selection, its a shame he has regressed so quickly. He needs to work hard and let's hope he comes back. Generally, once a bowler declines in pace, it become a permanent reduction. If that's the case, he is finished. I am hoping he comes back stronger.

 

[HasanA]

the issue with Naseem is clear

- The management have forced a shorter runup than he used to before his debut
- The management have forced a focus on line and length before speed. the opposite to what IK asked WA and WY to do when they began

 

[shamaan]

Naseem performed his role much better in the second ininings if he is to be replaced he must be replaced by a similar bowler should not be replaced by tabish khan or anyone of that calibre but i would stil continue with naseem

 

[thecrusade911]

[MENTION=150451]Shazzam[/MENTION] has named 5 bowlers who could possibly replace Naseem Shah as they know how to ‘set up’ batsmen

1. Tabish Khan (aged 36)
2. Junaid Khan
3. Wahab Riaz (Retired, aged 37)
4. Sohail Khan (aged 36)
5. Hassan Ali

Three of them are the average age of 36, a very interesting number these days. One is Junaid Khan, not sure why he is in contention again?

The 5th is Hassan Ali. He is a good option considering his fc form right now, but why should he replace Naseem and not Abbas?

So Mamoon is right. There is no international standard talent in Pakistan. If you can't find an optimal replacement for a bowler who is not ready for international cricket then you have some serious problems.

 

[Nado_]

I thought his whole X factor was his sheer pace, I really thought we unearthed another Adam Milne type bowler when I first heard about him, but there is no sheer pace not even in initial spell, therefore what is he bringing to the table ??