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South Africa 135/5 at Stumps on Day 2 after bowling out Pakistan for 185 and have a lead of 212 runs

MenInG said:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">You know things are bad when overthrows scores more runs than 6 of your batsmen <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/SAvPAK?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#SAvPAK</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1084055647954575363?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 12, 2019</a></blockquote>
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Sarfraz was the lucky batsman on the receiving end.
 
I will never understand why Amir is persisted with the new ball again and again?

Hasan showed in 1st test he can pick wickets with new ball by getting Markaram out 2 times for one digit figures.
 
Markhor said:
You need to separate the ideal from reality.

Yes this team would be well balanced with an Abdul Razzaq (forget producing a Shakib or Stokes in our garbage domestic cricket) but you cannot select all-rounders for the sake of having them if they aren't capable of matchwinning contributions in either department !

Also, this batting lineup is so shambolic that weakening it any further by dropping a specialist batsman is not a good idea.
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First off, Pakistan is undone by short pitch nothing special. Something we never planned to fix in 70 years. This is again not going to fix by hope alone. We have tendency to leave everything to nature and hope things will turn out good. This is how not just sport, whole country runs. But world does not works that way to have to plan, develop. You have to make things happen not waiting for them

We are going no where with this hope model, that will develop batsmen and fourth seamer. Pakistan is lucky not to play more than 6/7 test, otherwise our test structure will be exposed even badly allover the place not just west.
 
SarfiBabarHaris said:
I will never understand why Amir is persisted with the new ball again and again?

Hasan showed in 1st test he can pick wickets with new ball by getting Markaram out 2 times for one digit figures.
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Most of Hasan's success in test cricket has been with the new ball yet he doesn't get the new ball. Will never understand Pakistan cricket.

Amir has totally lost it with the new ball.
 
Dr_Bassim said:
Your assumption is that before Flower the team was merrily coasting along with plethora of batsmen.

If you need accountability, fire the coach, the captain and entire personnel and start afresh.

Not cherry pick someone who is the easy scapegoat.
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No, that is not my assumption, and neither do I expect things to get better after Flower leaves. However, what is the alternative? How do you evaluate the success or failure of a coach if not through performance?

Your solution seems to let Flower and everyone else collect their paychecks because things will not be better without them. What a dream job.
 
Prince of Pakistan said:
Most of Hasan's success in test cricket has been with the new ball yet he doesn't get the new ball. Will never understand Pakistan cricket.

Amir has totally lost it with the new ball.
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I dont remember last time Amir picked 3 wickets with the new ball yet he opens the bowling evrytime he has played and waste the new ball.

Hasan on the other hand is more expensive but atleast movs the ball both ways and attack the stumps so there is a chance of quick wickets at the start.
 
Shadab was very unlucky. He would have scored a 50 if not for our hopeless tail.
 
SarfiBabarHaris said:
I dont remember last time Amir picked 3 wickets with the new ball yet he opens the bowling evrytime he has played and waste the new ball.

Hasan on the other hand is more expensive but atleast movs the ball both ways and attack the stumps so there is a chance of quick wickets at the start.
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Hasan always gets a few LBW's with the new ball the reason its sad he gets treated like a 2nd class bowler.
 
Amir continues with his 6th stump back of a length rubbish
 
Lol the more you move your hands the more attracted flies are towards you.
 
3rd time in this series PAK's 1st innings earns 180ish total, which can't be acceptable at least this time because they are batting 2nd. By the time this ball gets old SAF will be well out of reach.
 
Mamoon said:
I was hoping that the two fake all-rounders would contribute 50 collectively, but they got the 5 but forgot the 0.

Although I am eager to be reminded that Shadab would have scored a half-century if he wasn’t batting with the tail.
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As you mentioned yesterday there was a reason why Pakistan needed to dismiss SA cheaply and ideally keep them under 200. Game over now.
 
Mamoon said:
No, that is not my assumption, and neither do I expect things to get better after Flower leaves. However, what is the alternative? How do you evaluate the success or failure of a coach if not through performance?

Your solution seems to let Flower and everyone else collect their paychecks because things will not be better without them. What a dream job.
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I think you are getting confused.

I am happy for the entire team to get sacked and replaced.

My only issue was people saying Flower should be singled out for these debacles.
 
Pakistan has four Philanders, everybody is right about at his pace :facepalm:
 
SarfiBabarHaris said:
I dont remember last time Amir picked 3 wickets with the new ball yet he opens the bowling evrytime he has played and waste the new ball.

Hasan on the other hand is more expensive but atleast movs the ball both ways and attack the stumps so there is a chance of quick wickets at the start.
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He is statistically one of the worst opening bowlers in the world in Test cricket. His opening spells rarely bring any wickets.
 
Dr_Bassim said:
I think you are getting confused.

I am happy for the entire team to get sacked and replaced.

My only issue was people saying Flower should be singled out for these debacles.
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Do you think it is realistic to sack 11 players including the entire coaching staff and the selection committee?

Flower is the batting coach and our batting has not improved an inch in his tenure, which is what he was hired for.
 
Dr_Bassim said:
I think you are getting confused.

I am happy for the entire team to get sacked and replaced.

My only issue was people saying Flower should be singled out for these debacles.
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How firing everybody is a solution??

Is this issue of large scale corruption?? - That we need to fire and kill everybody??

Pakistan has fundamental infrastructure issues that in last few decades have been exaggerated by social and political vision going horribly wrong. How just firing entire team is going to fix that??
 
Mamoon said:
Do you think it is realistic to sack 11 players including the entire coaching staff and the selection committee?

Flower is the batting coach and our batting has not improved an inch in his tenure, which is what he was hired for.
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If that's the excuse (lack of realistic expectations) , then sure sack Flower.

But its ironic that we can't sack many of them because of lack of realistic expectations, but we can sack one guy even though we know its "unrealistic that sacking will bring about change in batting fortunes".

Think about it tonight.
 
yasir said:
How firing everybody is a solution??

Is this issue of large scale corruption?? - That we need to fire and kill everybody??

Pakistan has fundamental infrastructure issues that in last few decades have been exaggerated by social and political vision going horribly wrong. How just firing entire team is going to fix that??
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It sends a message, that if you don't perform, we can REPLACE YOU.

At the moment, its status quo and I am sick of it.

You think we don't have anything better than Asad's and Azhar's in Pakistan?

Fine.

But first replace the entire squad and prove to me that the replacement squad will fare worse.
 
Dr_Bassim said:
If that's the excuse (lack of realistic expectations) , then sure sack Flower.

But its ironic that we can't sack many of them because of lack of realistic expectations, but we can sack one guy even though we know its "unrealistic that sacking will bring about change in batting fortunes".

Think about it tonight.
Click to expand...

So in other words, Flower won a lottery by becoming the Pakistan batting coach. Since the batsmen are too mediocre to improve, the batting coach cannot do anything and there is no point in firing him.

Literally anyone can do the job of a batting coach for Pakistan, so Flower is one lucky individual to be in this post where accountability and job performance evaluation doesn’t apply, and he can keep his post and have is contract renewed until he gets bored and walks away.
 
Pak new ball bowlers looking better than the first innings. Got to do with the fact that tea is near? Last day all wickets came after tea session.
 
Mamoon said:
So in other words, Flower won a lottery by becoming the Pakistan batting coach. Since the batsmen are too mediocre to improve, the batting coach cannot do anything and there is no point in firing him.

Literally anyone can do the job of a batting coach for Pakistan, so Flower is one lucky individual to be in this post where accountability and job performance evaluation doesn’t apply, and he can keep his post and have is contract renewed until he gets bored and walks away.
Click to expand...

I don't know if Flower is lucky or not, but I would sack this entire team of 11 players give or take a few, sack the coach, batting coach, Mickey and selection committee led by the wonderful Inzimam and start afresh.

What's the worse that could happen?

We would lose 3-0?

We are already doing that.
 
Savak said:
And weaken the bowling further? If 5 batsmen can't do the job, the 6th batsman won't do it either. Atleast the extra bowling option gives the pacers the ability to bowl at 100% in all their spells through out the day
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This is a myth - when Asad Shafiq was doing well at #6 there were a few occasions when those runs were critical in the context of the game. For example, the 2015 Galle Test and 2016 Lord's Test.

The reasons why our pacers speeds were down in their later spells were because a) Yasir is a poor spinner in SENA incapable of holding up an end so the captain has to keep bowling the pacers, and b) lack of rest so soon after the UAE Tests vs NZ combined with poor fitness.

India played six specialist batsmen in the Australia series, despite possessing a quality batting lineup and it had no effect on the threat of their pacers. Pakistan on the other hand has a feeble batting unit that needs all the help it can get.
 
Amir bowling well. Would have had a 5ferin each inning if he was bowling against Pakistani batsmen.
 
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Dr_Bassim said:
It sends a message, that if you don't perform, we can REPLACE YOU.

At the moment, its status quo and I am sick of it.

You think we don't have anything better than Asad's and Azhar's in Pakistan?

Fine.

But first replace the entire squad and prove to me that the replacement squad will fare worse.
Click to expand...

My point is Pakistan has structural problem more so than personal.

Lot of our problems stem from not playing at home, how?

We forced to play in uae (thanks to military + Mullah on steroids for long time). Side effect of that most of the money PCB makes from international cricket (which is less than before btw) is now paid uae not invested back in domestic. When test and ODIs were played in Pakistan we were forced to maintain 4/5 international level ground. We had visibility and investment in FC inadvertently, now pitches and conditions of grounds are way worse and nobody knows about it since it’s invisible from public eye. We saw that last year for on PSL match PCB had to spend arm and leg to built Karachi stadium after 10 years. You can see bowlers like Abbas 120 trundlers have avg in teens, nobody needs to bowl fast on those pitches.

Secondly uae is nothing like Pakistan, not to mention it’s one dimensional. Means you end up developing and investing in one dimensional players who cannot play else where. Pitches are so slow and low that skill of playing fast bowling has gone way worse than ever before, well we have never played in such low and slow pitches so consistently before. Results is for everybody to see, we are worse at playing pace in the world, worse than BD even.

Thirdly, another side effect of uae is persisting with seniors we’ll pass their age. Because in uae more you play better you get, you reflexes are not chanllanged, you can play in 40s and still maintain average. Where as before faster pitches and reverse swing Exposed seniors and forced them out. Now we have to carry them couple of years extra... Pakistan hall make was introducing youngesters, that started at home. UAE is boring and seniors cricket, you need mature and experience players to thrive, that cuts short another source of players we used to get. And bowling fast like our domestic pitches now has no value in uae, what youth is going to buy you?? - Misbah era was all about introducing 30 years old cricketer...

None of these are personal issues, nothing can be solved by making emotional and temporary decisions. You can play politics and cat fight on people but not going to make any progress. Entire society need to look at themselves what they want from themselves and for their kids. It’s not just cricket it’s the whole culture at large that is a problem for sometime, part of test cancer is reflected in cricket.
 
yasir said:
First off, Pakistan is undone by short pitch nothing special. Something we never planned to fix in 70 years. This is again not going to fix by hope alone. We have tendency to leave everything to nature and hope things will turn out good. This is how not just sport, whole country runs. But world does not works that way to have to plan, develop. You have to make things happen not waiting for them

We are going no where with this hope model, that will develop batsmen and fourth seamer. Pakistan is lucky not to play more than 6/7 test, otherwise our test structure will be exposed even badly allover the place not just west.
Click to expand...

Firstly let's define how an all-rounder justifies their position. They must be capable of matchwinning contributions in at least one department. If they can be a matchwinner in both departments, even better but we have no Imran Khans or Mushtaq Mohammads waiting in the wings. So can you answer this:

Is Shadab Khan capable of holding up an end in SENA conditions and win Test matches with the ball ? His batting is decent but as a bowler he is not better than a specialist. He has barely played a handful of FC cricket but was given a Test cap based on limited overs cricket.

Is Faheem Ashraf's bowling better than a specialist ? He is a decent bowler but I don't think so based on his Test career thus far. Can he make matchwinning contributions with the bat ? No, as Mickey said himself he is a bowler who can bat a bit.

Tell me what Shadab and Fahim do better than a specialist would.
 
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Markhor said:
Talk about bald men fighting over a comb.

Sarfraz has scored fifties in 2nd and 3rd Test and then threw his wicket away when the team desperately needed him to continue. That's not leadership, that's called CYA so that I can save whatever's left of my woeful Test captaincy stint.
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I mean yeah you are right, but Azhar and Asad are supposed to be full time batsmen and if a guy who is a keeper, captain and also batting at 6/7 while being woefully out of form before the series is outperforming you then you have to be a load of horse poop.
 
Markhor said:
Firstly let's define how an all-rounder justifies their position. They must be capable of matchwinning contributions in at least one department. If they can be a matchwinner in both departments, even better but we have no Imran Khans or Mushtaq Mohammads waiting in the wings. So can you answer this:

Is Shadab Khan capable of holding up an end in SENA conditions and win Test matches with the ball ? His batting is decent but as a bowler he is not better than a specialist. He has barely played a handful of FC cricket but was given a Test cap based on limited overs cricket.

Is Faheem Ashraf's bowling better than a specialist ? He is a decent bowler but I don't think so based on his Test career thus far. Can he make matchwinning contributions with the bat ? No, as Mickey said himself he is a bowler who can bat a bit.

Tell me what Shadab and Fahim do better than a specialist would.
Click to expand...

Faheem is at same as Forth seamer. If Pakistan has let him develop in couple of those 5 tests in uae and let him play here things by now would have been better.

Same is true for Shadab. If we had played him along Yasir in uae, he would have taken few wickets on day 4/5 too, Yasir does not do anything other than taking wicket on day 4/5 even in uae. Have we ever played Shadab in uae to know the gulf between them??

The reason we won two test in ENG last summer because of theee two. Shadab had 3 50s in a row, why we did not played him in uae baffled me...

Our main batters are failing miserably in SA, both 70 test veterans are undone by short pitch in 4 out of 5 innings and you expect Shadab and Faheem to make fifty in first attempt??

Had we invested in them for 6 innings in them by know they would have been making runs and getting their length sorted out. They would have helped develop them, would have helped with next SA or AUS tour, not to mention we might have won or got lot closer to winning one of the test. 6-4 model is never going to work in these conditions.

It goes back to what combination you think will work. First off Pakistan has half fit bowlers and half decent bowlers, they both need help. 5-2-3 is best of both world. Even for next SA/AUS this is only way we can win. We have to invest in them.

BTW: if we had Faheem and Shadab in uae test we would have never lost series. They would have atleast batted in first innings of both test. We wasted those tests on Hafeez, who chickened out last minute to save his world up spot. Net result is we are loosing everywhere. We have to realize wedont have world class bowlers or batters, Babar will be wasted in these collapses. He needs help to establish himself too.
 
Once SA lead is 150 its game over, pakistan wont get even close.
 
Big spell from Hasan now. Think he’ll pick up a few.
 
Bowlers are bowling better than first innings with new ball, but horses are already bolted. Minimum PAK can expect to chase is 250, which still will need a monumental effort from bowlers.
 
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