South India

[Adil_94]

If I were to marry a Tamil Girl or Punjabi Girl with the same Gothra as mine, it would be considered inbreeding. It does not matter how many generations or the location of the Bride and Groom.

Sounds ridiculous sometimes.

Oh wow that sounds really complicated. How closely is this followed in Indian society today. So is it impossible for someone to lie about their heritage then

 

[Adil_94]

Technically, yes. Big shots pandits have a database where they can track my ancestry to last many many generations. I was in Haridwar where I met a random big-shot Pandit. I was surprised to see that he knew more about my forefathers than me or my father. He still had all the data about their Kundlis and offsprings.

I still don't know how these things work, but the level of details they have held on to since generations is astounding.

So this practice is still widely practiced then

 

[endymion248]

If I were to marry a Tamil Girl or Punjabi Girl with the same Gothra as mine, it would be considered inbreeding. It does not matter how many generations or the location of the Bride and Groom.

Sounds ridiculous sometimes.

Inbreeding has nothing to do with patrilineal hereditary concepts like Gothras. In a pre-modern era, the marriage restrictions from casteism combined to limited geographical mobility pretty much guarantee that, even if you are marrying into a different gothra, several (if not all) your female ancestors come from the same line.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Oh wow that sounds really complicated. How closely is this followed in Indian society today. So is it impossible for someone to lie about their heritage then

Same Gothra are considered brother sister marriage.

And yes details are tracked like crazy.

In all communities.

I can speak for my community.

My mom and bua can track the details of any (almost) Tamil Iyengar Brahmin dude living in USA, UK, Singapore, etc, etc by using their personal contacts. Cos almost all Tamil Iyengar guys are affiliated with Andavan Ashram or Ahobila Mutt and my mom knows a LOT of people (and the right people) in Ahobila Mutt to get the data. Even if they are affiliated with the other one (Ashram), she and my bua can track it.

Its a very interlinked community.

Its virtually impossible to lie about heritage as everything can be tracked via multiple sources.

 

[Adil_94]

Same Gothra are considered brother sister marriage.

And yes details are tracked like crazy.

In all communities.

I can speak for my community.

My mom and bua can track the details of any (almost) Tamil Iyengar Brahmin dude living in USA, UK, Singapore, etc, etc by using their personal contacts. Cos almost all Tamil Iyengar guys are affiliated with Andavan Ashram or Ahobila Mutt and my mom knows a LOT of people (and the right people) in Ahobila Mutt to get the data. Even if they are affiliated with the other one (Ashram), she and my bua can track it.

Its a very interlinked community.

Its virtually impossible to lie about heritage as everything can be tracked via multiple sources.

I know Brahmin is a a high caste. What is a Iyengar and an Ashram. So if you get married is it cant be to a Iyengar then

 

[Adil_94]

Also the fact that some Muslims in India marry their own cousins must be sickening to a lot of Hindus who have such strict rules on any inbreeding

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I know Brahmin is a a high caste. What is a Iyengar and an Ashram. So if you get married is it cant be to a Iyengar then

No no....

Among Brahmins, there are divergent views:

1. Iyers (Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva are considered Gods)
2. Iyengars (Vishnu and Lakshmi are the supreme - basically Vishnu whose avatar is Ram, Krishna, Kalki, et)

Orthodox Iyengars do NOT consider Brahma, Shiva, Ganesha, etc are Gods. Only demi gods. In fact, they don't even visit the temple that have their idols. Not even common temples with Vishnu and Shiva idols.

Gothra is something present for ALL Brahmins. Maybe for other castes like Kshatriya and Vaishya too but I could be wrong. I would let others answer that.

For marriage, Gothra cannot be the same.

Andavan Ashram and Ahobila Mutt is just the religious institution of Iyengars. Same beliefs. No difference in ideology. Just different gurus.

For marriage, Iyengars look for a boy/girl from the same Iyengar community but with a different gothra.

Of course, its another matter that Iyers are classified into 4 parts and Iyengars into 2 parts and marriages usually (but not always) happen with sub sub sub caste where everything except Gothra are the same.

I know your mind would have exploded by now but that's how it is.

 

[Adil_94]

No no....

Among Brahmins, there are divergent views:

1. Iyers (Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva are considered Gods)
2. Iyengars (Vishnu and Lakshmi are the supreme - basically Vishnu whose avatar is Ram, Krishna, Kalki, et)

Orthodox Iyengars do NOT consider Brahma, Shiva, Ganesha, etc are Gods. Only demi gods. In fact, they don't even visit the temple that have their idols. Not even common temples with Vishnu and Shiva idols.

Gothra is something present for ALL Brahmins. Maybe for other castes like Kshatriya and Vaishya too but I could be wrong. I would let others answer that.

For marriage, Gothra cannot be the same.

Andavan Ashram and Ahobila Mutt is just the religious institution of Iyengars. Same beliefs. No difference in ideology. Just different gurus.

For marriage, Iyengars look for a boy/girl from the same Iyengar community but with a different gothra.

Of course, its another matter that Iyers are classified into 4 parts and Iyengars into 2 parts and marriages usually (but not always) happen with sub sub sub caste where everything except Gothra are the same.

I know your mind would have exploded by now but that's how it is.

Haha i could study this for another 10 years and still be completely mindf****d. Wow so complicated what happens if you marry outside your Iyengar outsidr your caste is the marriage recognised ?

 

[Adil_94]

No no....

Among Brahmins, there are divergent views:

1. Iyers (Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva are considered Gods)
2. Iyengars (Vishnu and Lakshmi are the supreme - basically Vishnu whose avatar is Ram, Krishna, Kalki, et)

Orthodox Iyengars do NOT consider Brahma, Shiva, Ganesha, etc are Gods. Only demi gods. In fact, they don't even visit the temple that have their idols. Not even common temples with Vishnu and Shiva idols.

Gothra is something present for ALL Brahmins. Maybe for other castes like Kshatriya and Vaishya too but I could be wrong. I would let others answer that.

For marriage, Gothra cannot be the same.

Andavan Ashram and Ahobila Mutt is just the religious institution of Iyengars. Same beliefs. No difference in ideology. Just different gurus.

For marriage, Iyengars look for a boy/girl from the same Iyengar community but with a different gothra.

Of course, its another matter that Iyers are classified into 4 parts and Iyengars into 2 parts and marriages usually (but not always) happen with sub sub sub caste where everything except Gothra are the same.

I know your mind would have exploded by now but that's how it is.

So is a Gothra someone who has a same paternal ancestor to you.

 

[guvi]

Also the fact that some Muslims in India marry their own cousins must be sickening to a lot of Hindus who have such strict rules on any inbreeding

not all that strict, cousin marriages are common in south india, and in Andhra and Tamilnadu, one can marry his niece (daughter of his sister)...

 

[Adil_94]

not all that strict, cousin marriages are common in south india, and in Andhra and Tamilnadu, one can marry his niece (daughter of his sister)...

Oh wow and is it Hindus that practice this or only Muslims. In the North im guessing the rules are much stricter

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Also the fact that some Muslims in India marry their own cousins must be sickening to a lot of Hindus who have such strict rules on any inbreeding

At the risk of sounding politically incorrect,

In South India, amongst backward Hindu castes, cousin marriages are quite common (marrying bua's son/daughter or mama's son/daughter). Very very common. In movies (made by them), its referenced like a million times (its considered normal).

Don't think people marry son/daughter of chacha but I am not 100% sure.

In Brahmin families, cousin marriages happen but I don't think its quite common.

Marrying girl/boy from father's side (his brothers, etc) is impossible because of the gothra issue.

I think I saw a Sanskrit verse saying marrying from father's side is not allowed and for mother's side, you have to ensure 6 generations gap.

 

[Slog]

sensible, you gave me a headache right there

 

[Adil_94]

At the risk of sounding politically incorrect,

In South India, amongst backward Hindu castes, cousin marriages are quite common (marrying bua's son/daughter or mama's son/daughter). Very very common. In movies (made by them), its referenced like a million times (its considered normal).

Don't think people marry son/daughter of chacha but I am not 100% sure.

In Brahmin families, cousin marriages happen but I don't think its quite common.

Marrying girl/boy from father's side (his brothers, etc) is impossible because of the gothra issue.

I think I saw a Sanskrit verse saying marrying from father's side is not allowed and for mother's side, you have to ensure 6 generations gap.

Do you have any idea on what it is like in the North. Sorry for all the questions im pretty intrigued

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Haha i could study this for another 10 years and still be completely mindf****d. Wow so complicated what happens if you marry outside your Iyengar outsidr your caste is the marriage recognised ?

Marriage outside of Iyengar community is fine as long as the person is Brahmin. In others words, Iyers are ok for most.

But outside of Brahmin community, it depends on family-family basis.

My family would disown me. They won't stop me but they would disown me and I am not even slightly exaggerating.

Plain and simple.

They are not evil people (like depicted in movies)....but yeah...we Hindu Brahmins especially orthodox Iyengar ones have the most strict codes.

So is a Gothra someone who has a same paternal ancestor to you.

Gothra refers to the main rishis from which your lineage is based.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Iyers are ok for some Iyengar families. Its not ok for most Iyengar families and DEFINITELY not ok for mine.

But if there is no other option, then maybe.

I guess same goes from an Iyer point of view.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Do you have any idea on what it is like in the North. Sorry for all the questions im pretty intrigued

No worries mate.

Reg North, I think [MENTION=134240]Electron[/MENTION] or [MENTION=96424]RWAC[/MENTION] (not sure which state you belong to bud) might give you a more accurate picture.

By and large, cousin marriages aren't common there I think.

South is notorious for this stuff.

 

[Adil_94]

No worries mate.

Reg North, I think [MENTION=134240]Electron[/MENTION] or [MENTION=96424]RWAC[/MENTION] (not sure which state you belong to bud) might give you a more accurate picture.

By and large, cousin marriages aren't common there I think.

South is notorious for this stuff.

Cheers mate yeah my area in Pakistan cousin marriages are extremely common personally find it weird. There are a few in my own family. Thankfully my parents are completely different caste and lineage.

 

[guvi]

At the risk of sounding politically incorrect,

In South India, amongst backward Hindu castes, cousin marriages are quite common (marrying bua's son/daughter or mama's son/daughter). Very very common. In movies (made by them), its referenced like a million times (its considered normal).

Don't think people marry son/daughter of chacha but I am not 100% sure.

In Brahmin families, cousin marriages happen but I don't think its quite common.

politically incorrect or not but factually incorrect, cousin marriages are allowed and happen in all castes especially in TN and AP. but nowadays people are avoiding it mostly because of the birth defects.

In north india, all cousins are considered as brothers and sisters. but in south, cousins from tauu chacha mausi line are considered as brothers and sisters. every one else (bua, mamu line) are fair enough to bang...

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Cheers mate yeah my area in Pakistan cousin marriages are extremely common personally find it weird. There are a few in my own family. Thankfully my parents are completely different caste and lineage.

I see.....do you guys have a caste system too?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

politically incorrect or not but factually incorrect, cousin marriages are allowed and happen in all castes especially in TN and AP. but nowadays people are avoiding it mostly because of the birth defects.

In north india, all cousins are considered as brothers and sisters. but in south, cousins from tauu chacha mausi line are considered as brothers and sisters. every one else (bua, mamu line) are fair enough to bang...

So where is my post factually incorrect?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I wasn't sure about chacha aspect and hence mentioned it.

In Brahmin communities, that's not possible due to gothra though cousin marriages do happen too.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Though not so common.

 

[Adil_94]

I see.....do you guys have a caste system too?

Yeah our caste system has Rajas Rajputs Choudarys at top. Then My caste Awan Gujjar Jat etc. After them the lowest are Mochi Qasbee Nai Masalli. Our caste system is more to do with historical job occupations or titles. But Cousin marriages in Potohar and Mirpur region are pretty common. Because there is no religious or social taboo. Also because of mass immigration from Mirpur and Potohar Plateau to the UK a lot of cousin marriages are done to bring over sons and daughters of an aunty or uncle who still live in Pakistan or AJK so they can start working.

 

[guvi]

So where is my post factually incorrect?

In South India, amongst backward Hindu castes, cousin marriages are quite common (marrying bua's son/daughter or mama's son/daughter). Very very common. In movies (made by them), its referenced like a million times (its considered normal).

it allowed and happens in all the castes !

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

it allowed and happens in all the castes !

If you read my full post, I mention that its more common among certain castes and considered 100% normal.

Among other castes, it happens but nowhere as common as that.

The first point was made NOT to single them out but to explain how normal it was for them.

My post in entirety.

At the risk of sounding politically incorrect,

In South India, amongst backward Hindu castes, cousin marriages are quite common (marrying bua's son/daughter or mama's son/daughter). Very very common. In movies (made by them), its referenced like a million times (its considered normal).

Don't think people marry son/daughter of chacha but I am not 100% sure.

In Brahmin families, cousin marriages happen but I don't think its quite common.

 

[guvi]

If you read my full post, I mention that its more common among certain castes and considered 100% normal.

Among other castes, it happens but nowhere as common as that.

The first point was made NOT to single them out but to explain how normal it was for them.

My post in entirety.

when this custom is prevalent in upper castes also, why highlighting backward castes ? other than showing some latent caste arrogance ?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

when this custom is prevalent in upper castes also, why highlighting backward castes ? other than showing some latent caste arrogance ?

Expected this to come up at some point.

In the SAME freaking post, I mention it happens in the other side too.

It was an additional information and this thread is full of it and I have given out so many additional freaking information about my own community too (and not all are very good looking to be honest).

So if I were to have an agenda to present my community the best way possible, I wouldn't have given away so many additional info in my posts above.

I don't have any arrogance but if you feel that way, so be it.

Not my problem.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Marriage outside of Iyengar community is fine as long as the person is Brahmin. In others words, Iyers are ok for most.

But outside of Brahmin community, it depends on family-family basis.

My family would disown me. They won't stop me but they would disown me and I am not even slightly exaggerating.

Plain and simple.

They are not evil people (like depicted in movies)....but yeah...we Hindu Brahmins especially orthodox Iyengar ones have the most strict codes.



Gothra refers to the main rishis from which your lineage is based.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra

Based on personal experience, Iyengar alliances that come through are a huge head ache. Same with Iyers too.

Both Iyers and Iyengars are way too orthodox and they ask so many questions and the astrology part kills everything.

Both Iyers and Iyengars ask 2 or 3 astrologers before saying yes to an alliance. Even after that the Grand Mothers and uncles will not be satisfied.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Based on personal experience, Iyengar alliances that come through are a huge head ache. Same with Iyers too.

Both Iyers and Iyengars are way too orthodox and they ask so many questions and the astrology part kills everything.

Both Iyers and Iyengars ask 2 or 3 astrologers before saying yes to an alliance. Even after that the Grand Mothers and uncles will not be satisfied.

Absolutely.

Your girl better be hot if you are gonna take the trouble buddy.

After astrology...so many things are there.

Your job, lifestyle, habits, religiousness, whom you pray to, etc, etc.

After a long and strenuous process the groom/bride get selected.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Its my ill-luck that amongst Brahmins, Iyer girls look better than Iyengar.

In general of course. From my personal experience.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Absolutely.

Your girl better be hot if you are gonna take the trouble buddy.

After astrology...so many things are there.

Your job, lifestyle, habits, religiousness, whom you pray to, etc, etc.

they make you jump through all the hoops like before sending the picture. There is no guarantee that the girl is hot

All you see is the description of girls profile that she i s beautiful. Yes beautiful only for her mom/dad

 

[mithun_minhas]

Its my ill-luck that amongst Brahmins, Iyer girls look better than Iyengar.

In general of course. From my personal experience.

Are sri vaishnavas and iyengars the same?

 

[Electron]

Its my ill-luck that amongst Brahmins, Iyer girls look better than Iyengar.

In general of course. From my personal experience.

So you will marry an Iyengar? Is it pre-decided?

 

[TM Riddle]

Not every one. Another exaple is Rathod. Half of my family are rathod and other half are parmar. Rathod considered as rajput so as parmar. but not all.

They were originally Rajput surnames.But these days many other castes use them as well.Not that it matters.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Are sri vaishnavas and iyengars the same?

Vaishnavas are those who believe in supremacy of Vishnu and no one else.

Anyone from any caste or religion who believes this is a Vaishnavite.

Iyengars are Vaishnavites from ideological point of view (but some have started to believe in Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva too but Iyengars are supposed to be Vaishnavites).

So you will marry an Iyengar? Is it pre-decided?

Yes.

Not just Iyengar.

There are 2 sub divisions in that.

I will be marrying in Iyengar Vadakalai.

That's a given.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

they make you jump through all the hoops like before sending the picture. There is no guarantee that the girl is hot

All you see is the description of girls profile that she i s beautiful. Yes beautiful only for her mom/dad

Yeah I can feel for you bud.

If the boy is not a Iyer or Iyengar that itself is a dead end. Can't proceed from there.

Also if the boy is Iyer, that's a dead end (for a Iyengar family in general).

And I think its the same way for Iyer families too (but they are more liberal in my view).

 

[CricketCartoons]

Not every one. Another exaple is Rathod. Half of my family are rathod and other half are parmar. Rathod considered as rajput so as parmar. but not all.

So you are not a true dalit. Not surprised.

 

[kaayal]

Vaishnavas are those who believe in supremacy of Vishnu and no one else.

Anyone from any caste or religion who believes this is a Vaishnavite.

Iyengars are Vaishnavites from ideological point of view (but some have started to believe in Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva too but Iyengars are supposed to be Vaishnavites).



Yes.

Not just Iyengar.

There are 2 sub divisions in that.

I will be marrying in Iyengar Vadakalai.

That's a given.

I was thinking if the boy is having this much problem, how tough it will be for the girls?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I was thinking if the boy is having this much problem, how tough it will be for the girls?

Girls are better off in our marriage circuit these days.

Boys have 10,000 criterias to match apart from astrology and religious beliefs. Its harder for boys and I never thought I would say this.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I was thinking if the boy is having this much problem, how tough it will be for the girls?

Girls just have to apply lipstick and look pretty. But guys have to get an education, job, property, look after their parents, and also live in fear of 498A.

 

[kaayal]

Girls just have to apply lipstick and look pretty. But guys have to get an education, job, property, look after their parents, and also live in fear of 498A.

lol only thing we cared about eachother was education, job and family. Everything else is bakwaas.

 

[Electron]

Yes.

Not just Iyengar.

There are 2 sub divisions in that.

I will be marrying in Iyengar Vadakalai.

That's a given.

Damn, you come from a strict Brahmin family ! Here in my case, they are fine with everything as long as I don't go gay.

 

[JaDed]

Vaishnavas are those who believe in supremacy of Vishnu and no one else.

Anyone from any caste or religion who believes this is a Vaishnavite.

Iyengars are Vaishnavites from ideological point of view (but some have started to believe in Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva too but Iyengars are supposed to be Vaishnavites).



Yes.

Not just Iyengar.

There are 2 sub divisions in that.

I will be marrying in Iyengar Vadakalai.

That's a given.

Sorry to know that mate.

 

[JaDed]

Yeah our caste system has Rajas Rajputs Choudarys at top. Then My caste Awan Gujjar Jat etc. After them the lowest are Mochi Qasbee Nai Masalli. Our caste system is more to do with historical job occupations or titles. But Cousin marriages in Potohar and Mirpur region are pretty common. Because there is no religious or social taboo. Also because of mass immigration from Mirpur and Potohar Plateau to the UK a lot of cousin marriages are done to bring over sons and daughters of an aunty or uncle who still live in Pakistan or AJK so they can start working.

That's how it started in hinduism too don't let it flourish!

 

[JaDed]

Technically, yes. Big shots pandits have a database where they can track my ancestry to last many many generations. I was in Haridwar where I met a random big-shot Pandit. I was surprised to see that he knew more about my forefathers than me or my father. He still had all the data about their Kundlis and offsprings.

I still don't know how these things work, but the level of details they have held on to since generations is astounding.

There is a name tree(a book ) in Haridwar where our names are given my parents got mine and my wife's written there this year as well.

 

[Adil_94]

That's how it started in hinduism too don't let it flourish!

It is flourishing in our communities too. One of my uncles didnt let his daughter become a hairdresser because it is considered a low-caste job and beneath our caste apparently. and this happened in the UK nevermind Pakistan

 

[JaDed]

It is flourishing in our communities too. One of my uncles didnt let his daughter become a hairdresser because it is considered a low-caste job and beneath our caste apparently. and this happened in the UK nevermind Pakistan

Funny the stock is same in all 3 countries.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Yeah our caste system has Rajas Rajputs Choudarys at top. Then My caste Awan Gujjar Jat etc. After them the lowest are Mochi Qasbee Nai Masalli. Our caste system is more to do with historical job occupations or titles. But Cousin marriages in Potohar and Mirpur region are pretty common. Because there is no religious or social taboo. Also because of mass immigration from Mirpur and Potohar Plateau to the UK a lot of cousin marriages are done to bring over sons and daughters of an aunty or uncle who still live in Pakistan or AJK so they can start working.

Oh I see...thanks.

Somehow I missed your post in the whole thread.

 

[Swanny]

The most sickening thing is some you guys will follow the same idiotic customs ahead proudly even if you are moaning about it now.

 

[Electron]

@ sensible-indian-fan .. bro, do you think it is rational to follow these customs?

 

[CricketCartoons]

@ sensible-indian-fan .. bro, do you think it is rational to follow these customs?

You should ask that question to [MENTION=77677]IgnitedMind[/MENTION] who gave the RationalMind theory. SIF only said why this perception may exist.

 

[Sandeep]

Not just Iyengar.

There are 2 sub divisions in that.

I will be marrying in Iyengar Vadakalai.

That's a given.

Give me a high five SIF. Same here

 

[Swanny]

May you people live a happy life in your old age homes if you push the same idiotic customs down your childrens throat.

 

[Electron]

You should ask that question to [MENTION=77677]IgnitedMind[/MENTION] who gave the RationalMind theory. SIF only said why this perception may exist.

He actually supported that perception saying that 99% of the times, South Indians will be more rational.

Besides, my question is specifically to him because I am curious about his decision. He chose to be rational all his life, but one of his most important life-changing decisions will be centred around an insanely irrational tradition. I find that sad, because he should have the liberty to make a rational call, and if someone tries to deprive him of that opportunity, SIF should take a stand against this.

Family often tries to impose a lot of their beliefs over us, but no one should allow our lives to be driven by that.

 

[Moh@n]

Interesting thread.

I was born to Tamil parents who had their roots in Kerala. But I was born and raised in Delhi before moving to Bangalore post marriage.

South Indians and North Indians are as different as chalk and cheese. As [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] rightly pointed out in the OP, general mannerisms, food, culture etc. are vastly different.

Southerners are much more reserved while Northies are a lot more aggressive in comparison. Also, I find the average South Indian very articulate and intelligent in comparison to a North Indian.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

In the UK the early generations of Indians were from north India. Current trends are seeing far more arriving from the south and they do seem to be a lot more easy going than their northern brethren.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Give me a high five SIF. Same here

Wow....you too are Iyengar Vadakalai?

 

[Sandeep]

Wow....you too are Iyengar Vadakalai?

Yep

 

[mithun_minhas]

I know Iyers who are Vadakalai.

Is Vadakalai like a sub-caste? My former roomie is a Iyer and he used to tell me funny stories about marriage alliances. I got to know a lot of Astrology and the Tamil terminology for it.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

@ sensible-indian-fan .. bro, do you think it is rational to follow these customs?

Buddy, you should quote me with no gap after the @. Or else I won't get a notification.

As for your question...

Here's my reply:

1. From a purely rational point of view, all these customs are a bunch of garbage. If I were not a Iyengar or even a Hindu, I would laugh at all these things.

2. But we humans are not rational in an absolute way. We are 100% irrational in certain aspects (religion, providing for our loved ones, etc) and rational in other aspects. What we can do is strive to be rational as much as possible (in areas where we can be) but its not fully possible.

Religion by definition involves faith and if you are a religious guy, TECHNICALLY you choose to be irrational cos you are believing in something that has not been proven and you keep believing in all customs.

Its like we take an assumption and keep building castles on it.

So yeah....I am irrational regarding this aspect.

The liberal part of me knows I am trapped. But the religious part of me asks me to follow it.

But overall when I think about everything deeply, I have to come realize that its what I am supposed to do. I can break it or I can follow it.

And here's a deeper explanation of it:

You see...our (Hindu) religion in its truest form is build on one fundamental principle (which I think is very logical but as a Hindu you can call me biased).

And that is...this world isn't the starting point of anything. If it was, then the world by definition is unfair and God is unfair. How? Simple example. Why should there be poor kids who have nothing to eat for days (Africa) while we feast ourselves here. Why should people get killed in Palestine, Syria, etc while we grow up to have a nice childhood? No one (including religious guys) would ever disagree that God doesn't love every soul equally. Everyone of us accepts that. If there is God who is perfect, he must love everyone equally. But there is no equality in this world. There is no fairness. Some are born with severe disadvantages.

According to our religion, that's attributed to the fact that this life is NOT the starting point of everything. Its about Karma. The sample set goes beyond the point from which we took the birth. Now this DOES NOT mean we look down upon others misfortune and say they deserve it (which is extremely sinful too) plus there are other complicated concepts out there like Karma+Our deeds and choices that govern our lifestyle.

If you check Dharma Sashtra (the Hindu jurisprudence NOT just for this life but all lives - in fact Yama is said to use Dharma Shastra to determine punishments), we can see the effects of one's action ACROSS births.

For example, in Mahabharatha, if you take the world as the sample set, Ganga is a villain who killed her 6 kids before Santanu saved Bhishma (who is lauded in this world but in reality was the cursed one of them all). Of course, these stories can be twisted beyond belief for people to justify their actions in this world but you get the general idea.

So the cycle of birth and death continues until we choose to liberate ourselves from it (how differs from sect to sect).

For me, this is my birth and its my duty to follow it.

And I accept that.

I know its not logical but I also know that if I have to believe in religion, I have to look beyond worldly logic.

By accepting a religion with all its customs, I chose to be irrational in this aspect of my life. Its possible all this could be a lie and I am wasting my time but that's just a risk any religious guy has to take.

That's what faith is about.

And I accept that.

 

[Slog]

Interesting thread.

I was born to Tamil parents who had their roots in Kerala. But I was born and raised in Delhi before moving to Bangalore post marriage.

South Indians and North Indians are as different as chalk and cheese. As [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] rightly pointed out in the OP, general mannerisms, food, culture etc. are vastly different.

Southerners are much more reserved while Northies are a lot more aggressive in comparison. Also, I find the average South Indian very articulate and intelligent in comparison to a North Indian.

If you had some connection to Bengal (or eastern India in general) you would be Mr. India

 

[Moh@n]

If you had some connection to Bengal (or eastern India in general) you would be Mr. India

My mother was born and raised in Kolkata

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Yep

Wohoo...High Five.

He actually supported that perception saying that 99% of the times, South Indians will be more rational.

Besides, my question is specifically to him because I am curious about his decision. He chose to be rational all his life, but one of his most important life-changing decisions will be centred around an insanely irrational tradition. I find that sad, because he should have the liberty to make a rational call, and if someone tries to deprive him of that opportunity, SIF should take a stand against this.

Family often tries to impose a lot of their beliefs over us, but no one should allow our lives to be driven by that.

I did clarify that part buddy.

Its about the crowd you mingle with. In general (if you take the full South population)...we can't make any sweeping statements.

But the educated crowds you get to meet outside India, in North India, etc - those are different (based on my personal experience and others).

 

[Slog]

My mother was born and raised in Kolkata

haha nice one

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I know Iyers who are Vadakalai.

Is Vadakalai like a sub-caste? My former roomie is a Iyer and he used to tell me funny stories about marriage alliances. I got to know a lot of Astrology and the Tamil terminology for it.

How is that possible?

Vadakalai is a sub sect of Iyengars. Refers to the followers of Ramanujam and Vedanta Deskia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadakalai

Iyers have many sub-sects among them, such as Vadama, Brahacharnam or Brahatcharanam, Vāthima, Sholiyar or Chozhiar, Ashtasahasram, Mukkāni, Gurukkal, Kāniyālar and Prathamasāki.

Got that from wiki cos I didn't know all the sub sects of Iyers.

 

[zzebie]

Oh wow that sounds really complicated. How closely is this followed in Indian society today. So is it impossible for someone to lie about their heritage then

Adil- Things have been changing in the Indian society especially in the cities. I am seeing an increasing number of people marrying across castes. In my close circles(family and friends) i am seeing people marry outside of their caste or community. Personally i have never gotten the allure of marrying within one's own caste in mind. People have their own reasons, and it's their wish obviously.
Muslims are far open in this regard at least in most groups in India. I like that a lot.

Coming to the marrying cousins part, i have seen it more in the south of India. That practice too citing health reasons is being discouraged and lot of families have stopped considering such marriages.

 

[mithun_minhas]

How is that possible?

Vadakalai is a sub sect of Iyengars. Refers to the followers of Ramanujam and Vedanta Deskia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadakalai

Iyers have many sub-sects among them, such as Vadama, Brahacharnam or Brahatcharanam, Vāthima, Sholiyar or Chozhiar, Ashtasahasram, Mukkāni, Gurukkal, Kāniyālar and Prathamasāki.

Got that from wiki cos I didn't know all the sub sects of Iyers.

Don't know man. I have no idea about the subcastes in Tamil Brahmins. I only know that they have Iyers and Iyengars.

 

[saintgrace]

Adil- Things have been changing in the Indian society especially in the cities. I am seeing an increasing number of people marrying across castes. In my close circles(family and friends) i am seeing people marry outside of their caste or community. Personally i have never gotten the allure of marrying within one's own caste in mind. People have their own reasons, and it's their wish obviously.
Muslims are far open in this regard at least in most groups in India. I like that a lot.

Coming to the marrying cousins part, i have seen it more in the south of India. That practice too citing health reasons is being discouraged and lot of families have stopped considering such marriages.

Indians marrying into other castes are not only because education but also screwed Boy/girl ration.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/Sex-ratio-kills-honeymoon-dream-in-Gujarat/articleshow/46842946.cms?utm_source=TOInewHP_TILwidget&utm_medium=ABtest&utm_campaign=TOInewHP

 

[RWAC]

No worries mate.

Reg North, I think [MENTION=134240]Electron[/MENTION] or [MENTION=96424]RWAC[/MENTION] (not sure which state you belong to bud) might give you a more accurate picture.

By and large, cousin marriages aren't common there I think.

South is notorious for this stuff.

No freakin' way. Your cousins are treated like your siblings when it comes to relations with them. I haven't heard of cousin-marriages occurring in Delhi or Punjab.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

No freakin' way. Your cousins are treated like your siblings when it comes to relations with them. I haven't heard of cousin-marriages occurring in Delhi or Punjab.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Good stuff then.

 

[JaDed]

Buddy, you should quote me with no gap after the @. Or else I won't get a notification.

As for your question...

Here's my reply:

1. From a purely rational point of view, all these customs are a bunch of garbage. If I were not a Iyengar or even a Hindu, I would laugh at all these things.

2. But we humans are not rational in an absolute way. We are 100% irrational in certain aspects (religion, providing for our loved ones, etc) and rational in other aspects. What we can do is strive to be rational as much as possible (in areas where we can be) but its not fully possible.

Religion by definition involves faith and if you are a religious guy, TECHNICALLY you choose to be irrational cos you are believing in something that has not been proven and you keep believing in all customs.

Its like we take an assumption and keep building castles on it.

So yeah....I am irrational regarding this aspect.

The liberal part of me knows I am trapped. But the religious part of me asks me to follow it.

But overall when I think about everything deeply, I have to come realize that its what I am supposed to do. I can break it or I can follow it.

And here's a deeper explanation of it:

You see...our (Hindu) religion in its truest form is build on one fundamental principle (which I think is very logical but as a Hindu you can call me biased).

And that is...this world isn't the starting point of anything. If it was, then the world by definition is unfair and God is unfair. How? Simple example. Why should there be poor kids who have nothing to eat for days (Africa) while we feast ourselves here. Why should people get killed in Palestine, Syria, etc while we grow up to have a nice childhood? No one (including religious guys) would ever disagree that God doesn't love every soul equally. Everyone of us accepts that. If there is God who is perfect, he must love everyone equally. But there is no equality in this world. There is no fairness. Some are born with severe disadvantages.

According to our religion, that's attributed to the fact that this life is NOT the starting point of everything. Its about Karma. The sample set goes beyond the point from which we took the birth. Now this DOES NOT mean we look down upon others misfortune and say they deserve it (which is extremely sinful too) plus there are other complicated concepts out there like Karma+Our deeds and choices that govern our lifestyle.

If you check Dharma Sashtra (the Hindu jurisprudence NOT just for this life but all lives - in fact Yama is said to use Dharma Shastra to determine punishments), we can see the effects of one's action ACROSS births.

For example, in Mahabharatha, if you take the world as the sample set, Ganga is a villain who killed her 6 kids before Santanu saved Bhishma (who is lauded in this world but in reality was the cursed one of them all). Of course, these stories can be twisted beyond belief for people to justify their actions in this world but you get the general idea.

So the cycle of birth and death continues until we choose to liberate ourselves from it (how differs from sect to sect).

For me, this is my birth and its my duty to follow it.

And I accept that.

I know its not logical but I also know that if I have to believe in religion, I have to look beyond worldly logic.

By accepting a religion with all its customs, I chose to be irrational in this aspect of my life. Its possible all this could be a lie and I am wasting my time but that's just a risk any religious guy has to take.

That's what faith is about.

And I accept that.

Good Post!

 

[Electron]

Buddy, you should quote me with no gap after the @. Or else I won't get a notification.

As for your question...

Here's my reply:

1. From a purely rational point of view, all these customs are a bunch of garbage. If I were not a Iyengar or even a Hindu, I would laugh at all these things.

2. But we humans are not rational in an absolute way. We are 100% irrational in certain aspects (religion, providing for our loved ones, etc) and rational in other aspects. What we can do is strive to be rational as much as possible (in areas where we can be) but its not fully possible.

Religion by definition involves faith and if you are a religious guy, TECHNICALLY you choose to be irrational cos you are believing in something that has not been proven and you keep believing in all customs.

Its like we take an assumption and keep building castles on it.

So yeah....I am irrational regarding this aspect.

The liberal part of me knows I am trapped. But the religious part of me asks me to follow it.

But overall when I think about everything deeply, I have to come realize that its what I am supposed to do. I can break it or I can follow it.

And here's a deeper explanation of it:

You see...our (Hindu) religion in its truest form is build on one fundamental principle (which I think is very logical but as a Hindu you can call me biased).

And that is...this world isn't the starting point of anything. If it was, then the world by definition is unfair and God is unfair. How? Simple example. Why should there be poor kids who have nothing to eat for days (Africa) while we feast ourselves here. Why should people get killed in Palestine, Syria, etc while we grow up to have a nice childhood? No one (including religious guys) would ever disagree that God doesn't love every soul equally. Everyone of us accepts that. If there is God who is perfect, he must love everyone equally. But there is no equality in this world. There is no fairness. Some are born with severe disadvantages.

According to our religion, that's attributed to the fact that this life is NOT the starting point of everything. Its about Karma. The sample set goes beyond the point from which we took the birth. Now this DOES NOT mean we look down upon others misfortune and say they deserve it (which is extremely sinful too) plus there are other complicated concepts out there like Karma+Our deeds and choices that govern our lifestyle.

If you check Dharma Sashtra (the Hindu jurisprudence NOT just for this life but all lives - in fact Yama is said to use Dharma Shastra to determine punishments), we can see the effects of one's action ACROSS births.

For example, in Mahabharatha, if you take the world as the sample set, Ganga is a villain who killed her 6 kids before Santanu saved Bhishma (who is lauded in this world but in reality was the cursed one of them all). Of course, these stories can be twisted beyond belief for people to justify their actions in this world but you get the general idea.

So the cycle of birth and death continues until we choose to liberate ourselves from it (how differs from sect to sect).

For me, this is my birth and its my duty to follow it.

And I accept that.

I know its not logical but I also know that if I have to believe in religion, I have to look beyond worldly logic.

By accepting a religion with all its customs, I chose to be irrational in this aspect of my life. Its possible all this could be a lie and I am wasting my time but that's just a risk any religious guy has to take.

That's what faith is about.

And I accept that.

Wow, that was intense. I can't be one like that, but it is always wonderful to see such devotion.

You chose go with your religious part here, suppressing the more "liberal" self. In case your inner conflict is settled and isn't likely to relapse, I wish you luck with your decision.

 

[Thivagar]

Girls just have to apply lipstick and look pretty. But guys have to get an education, job, property, look after their parents, and also live in fear of 498A.

Guys have to be attractive enough for the girl as well. Arranged marriage will soon be non-existent in the cities. "Good boys" are considered "losers" "beta male" and etc. Some girls even go on to say things like "Because he is nice, i have to sleep with him?". This is common among South Asians living abroad in the West. Soon, this trend will reach South Asia as well if it hadn't already reached there. So you need a good job, you gotta appear caring and you also gotta look interesting for girls so they'll talk to you. Men in the west, especially the younger generation are acting more and more desperate with girls and always looking to seek approval. Also you gotta look good as well, when I didn't have the best looks when i was around 13-14 and every time i say Hi to a girl, they would give me this "LOL, are you trying to hit on me? you think you have a chance with me lol" look. But as i got older and my looks have gotten better, I get this " you look cute, i guess you are worth talking to" look. Every time some girl compliments me it makes me question whether she would be talking to me if I had the same look as i did when i was 14-15. More pressure on guys. We might need to start paying dowries as well.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Guys have to be attractive enough for the girl as well. Arranged marriage will soon be non-existent in the cities. "Good boys" are considered "losers" "beta male" and etc. Some girls even go on to say things like "Because he is nice, i have to sleep with him?". This is common among South Asians living abroad in the West. Soon, this trend will reach South Asia as well if it hadn't already reached there. So you need a good job, you gotta appear caring and you also gotta look interesting for girls so they'll talk to you. Men in the west, especially the younger generation are acting more and more desperate with girls and always looking to seek approval. Also you gotta look good as well, when I didn't have the best looks when i was around 13-14 and every time i say Hi to a girl, they would give me this "LOL, are you trying to hit on me? you think you have a chance with me lol" look. But as i got older and my looks have gotten better, I get this " you look cute, i guess you are worth talking to" look. Every time some girl compliments me it makes me question whether she would be talking to me if I had the same look as i did when i was 14-15. More pressure on guys. We might need to start paying dowries as well.

In India, the boys greatest attraction is his bank balance, family history and of course his job.

Most girls do not care how the guy looks. Its all about financial security.

 

[EliteCynical]

EVerything bro.

I have Telugu, UP, Tamil, Kannada connections. My family is a Jeeta Jaagta example of National Integration.

Brought up in Andhra. Hence I can read and write Telugu fluently.

Great to meet someone with similar origins. Me originally telugu, but ancestors settled in TN and then grand father moved to mumbai, hence born and brought up there. Moved to Delhi and did my high schooling there. Finally moved back to Chennai. I can read and write tamil well and obviously pretty fluent with hindi, telugu and tamil and decently fluent with marathi.Phew!

 

[Thivagar]

In India, the boys greatest attraction is his bank balance, family history and of course his job.

Most girls do not care how the guy looks. Its all about financial security.

It will change, this was how the West was 20 years ago, yes certain things like your status and money play a major role. Status and Money gives you that confidence, confidence = you being you instead of trying to act like who you aren't. Confidence + your character will bring in the ladies closer to you, but the looks attract more girls who has never seen you

 

[RWAC]

Buddy, you should quote me with no gap after the @. Or else I won't get a notification.

As for your question...

Here's my reply:

1. From a purely rational point of view, all these customs are a bunch of garbage. If I were not a Iyengar or even a Hindu, I would laugh at all these things.

2. But we humans are not rational in an absolute way. We are 100% irrational in certain aspects (religion, providing for our loved ones, etc) and rational in other aspects. What we can do is strive to be rational as much as possible (in areas where we can be) but its not fully possible.

Religion by definition involves faith and if you are a religious guy, TECHNICALLY you choose to be irrational cos you are believing in something that has not been proven and you keep believing in all customs.

Its like we take an assumption and keep building castles on it.

So yeah....I am irrational regarding this aspect.

The liberal part of me knows I am trapped. But the religious part of me asks me to follow it.

But overall when I think about everything deeply, I have to come realize that its what I am supposed to do. I can break it or I can follow it.

And here's a deeper explanation of it:

You see...our (Hindu) religion in its truest form is build on one fundamental principle (which I think is very logical but as a Hindu you can call me biased).

And that is...this world isn't the starting point of anything. If it was, then the world by definition is unfair and God is unfair. How? Simple example. Why should there be poor kids who have nothing to eat for days (Africa) while we feast ourselves here. Why should people get killed in Palestine, Syria, etc while we grow up to have a nice childhood? No one (including religious guys) would ever disagree that God doesn't love every soul equally. Everyone of us accepts that. If there is God who is perfect, he must love everyone equally. But there is no equality in this world. There is no fairness. Some are born with severe disadvantages.

According to our religion, that's attributed to the fact that this life is NOT the starting point of everything. Its about Karma. The sample set goes beyond the point from which we took the birth. Now this DOES NOT mean we look down upon others misfortune and say they deserve it (which is extremely sinful too) plus there are other complicated concepts out there like Karma+Our deeds and choices that govern our lifestyle.

If you check Dharma Sashtra (the Hindu jurisprudence NOT just for this life but all lives - in fact Yama is said to use Dharma Shastra to determine punishments), we can see the effects of one's action ACROSS births.

For example, in Mahabharatha, if you take the world as the sample set, Ganga is a villain who killed her 6 kids before Santanu saved Bhishma (who is lauded in this world but in reality was the cursed one of them all). Of course, these stories can be twisted beyond belief for people to justify their actions in this world but you get the general idea.

So the cycle of birth and death continues until we choose to liberate ourselves from it (how differs from sect to sect).

For me, this is my birth and its my duty to follow it.

And I accept that.

I know its not logical but I also know that if I have to believe in religion, I have to look beyond worldly logic.

By accepting a religion with all its customs, I chose to be irrational in this aspect of my life. Its possible all this could be a lie and I am wasting my time but that's just a risk any religious guy has to take.

That's what faith is about.

And I accept that.

Great post buddy. Kudos - enjoyed reading it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Swanny]

Buddy, you should quote me with no gap after the @. Or else I won't get a notification.

As for your question...

Here's my reply:

1. From a purely rational point of view, all these customs are a bunch of garbage. If I were not a Iyengar or even a Hindu, I would laugh at all these things.

2. But we humans are not rational in an absolute way. We are 100% irrational in certain aspects (religion, providing for our loved ones, etc) and rational in other aspects. What we can do is strive to be rational as much as possible (in areas where we can be) but its not fully possible.

Religion by definition involves faith and if you are a religious guy, TECHNICALLY you choose to be irrational cos you are believing in something that has not been proven and you keep believing in all customs.

Its like we take an assumption and keep building castles on it.

So yeah....I am irrational regarding this aspect.

The liberal part of me knows I am trapped. But the religious part of me asks me to follow it.

But overall when I think about everything deeply, I have to come realize that its what I am supposed to do. I can break it or I can follow it.

And here's a deeper explanation of it:

You see...our (Hindu) religion in its truest form is build on one fundamental principle (which I think is very logical but as a Hindu you can call me biased).

And that is...this world isn't the starting point of anything. If it was, then the world by definition is unfair and God is unfair. How? Simple example. Why should there be poor kids who have nothing to eat for days (Africa) while we feast ourselves here. Why should people get killed in Palestine, Syria, etc while we grow up to have a nice childhood? No one (including religious guys) would ever disagree that God doesn't love every soul equally. Everyone of us accepts that. If there is God who is perfect, he must love everyone equally. But there is no equality in this world. There is no fairness. Some are born with severe disadvantages.

According to our religion, that's attributed to the fact that this life is NOT the starting point of everything. Its about Karma. The sample set goes beyond the point from which we took the birth. Now this DOES NOT mean we look down upon others misfortune and say they deserve it (which is extremely sinful too) plus there are other complicated concepts out there like Karma+Our deeds and choices that govern our lifestyle.

If you check Dharma Sashtra (the Hindu jurisprudence NOT just for this life but all lives - in fact Yama is said to use Dharma Shastra to determine punishments), we can see the effects of one's action ACROSS births.

For example, in Mahabharatha, if you take the world as the sample set, Ganga is a villain who killed her 6 kids before Santanu saved Bhishma (who is lauded in this world but in reality was the cursed one of them all). Of course, these stories can be twisted beyond belief for people to justify their actions in this world but you get the general idea.

So the cycle of birth and death continues until we choose to liberate ourselves from it (how differs from sect to sect).

For me, this is my birth and its my duty to follow it.

And I accept that.

I know its not logical but I also know that if I have to believe in religion, I have to look beyond worldly logic.

By accepting a religion with all its customs, I chose to be irrational in this aspect of my life. Its possible all this could be a lie and I am wasting my time but that's just a risk any religious guy has to take.

That's what faith is about.

And I accept that.

Lol what a martyr !

Poor little soul cant even marry the girl of his choice becoz of all the idiotic customs which he himself decided to follow

You can chose to worship whoever you chose but why are you painting your family as bad in earlier posts when they are imposing the same customs on you which you yourself chose to follow & are ok with

 

[CricketCartoons]

I know its not logical but I also know that if I have to believe in religion, I have to look beyond worldly logic.

By accepting a religion with all its customs, I chose to be irrational in this aspect of my life. Its possible all this could be a lie and I am wasting my time but that's just a risk any religious guy has to take.

That's what faith is about.

And I accept that.

Which Hindu scriptures do you consider supreme? The earliest form of vedas did not have casteism. There is a hymn in Rig Veda which says " I am a singer, my father is a physician, and my mother in a grinder of corn". That early vedic society was clan based. It transformed into varna based system gradually during the Gupta period, and a lot of hindu scriptures were re-written/modified, including the vedas. Rig Veda got that famous hymn:

"When the gods made a scarifice with the Man as their victim...
When they divided the Man, into how many parts did they divide him?
What was his mouth, what were his arms, what were his thighs and his feet called?
The brahman was his mouth, of his arms were made the warrior.
The thighs became the vaishya, of his feet the shudra was born.
With Sacrifice the gods sacrificed to Sacrifice, these were the first of the sacred laws"

Both indologist Basham, and leftist historian Romila Thapar (some call her anti hindu) say that this verse was a later addition, which gave religious sanction to the origin of castes.

So if you cite religion as the reason for following the caste system, then it depends on which scripture you consider supreme. If you think it is the Rig Veda, then it was modified during the Gupta period. Not that the earlier vedas had any divine (everything is man made) origin, but followers consider the earliest version the pure one. So if you base your religion on the Vedas, then you must disobey the caste system, unless you think that the modified one was supreme, or any other scripture written in that era that endorses the caste system.