The league of Sachin Tendulkar and Brian Lara | Does any other modern era batsman belong in it?

[Acricketfan]

Just look at his averages in Aus and SA. The 'WALL' .... my foot!!! Such a selfless player who scored his runs at the pace of a tortoise.

Are you drunk yet again ? I'm fine with a poster criticizing a player but to abuse him like this ? Especially a player who has represented his country with honour and dignity for 16 years ? Simply disgusting.

 

[Hitman]

Are you drunk yet again ? I'm fine with a poster criticizing a player but to abuse him like this ? Especially a player who has represented his country with honour and dignity for 16 years ? Simply disgusting.

You need to read the opinions of Dravid fans elsewhere where they abuse Sachin till no end because of their inferiority complex.

 

[Mobashir]

1999 India's tour to Australia -

1. McGrath - The best ever
2. Warne - The genius.
3. Lee - Created magic in his debut series (that particular series was his debut series) and lots of fans and ex cricketers hailed him as the next big thing.

That's one.

Two other :

NZ 2002 vs Bond - The most difficult.
England 2011.

Dravid, at the end of his career scored those 3 hundreds in very very hard conditions.

I am not saying Dravid is better than Tendulkar, I think Tendulkar is better. But to say that Dravid never played well in hard conditions is so not true. This Dravid performance is the best any Indian batsman has done in bowling conditions, ever and not any other performance come close.

 

[Scrolln]

That's one.

Two other :

NZ 2002 vs Bond - The most difficult.
England 2011.

Dravid, at the end of his career scored those 3 hundreds in very very hard conditions.

I am not saying Dravid is better than Tendulkar, I think Tendulkar is better. But to say that Dravid never played well in hard conditions is so not true. This Dravid performance is the best any Indian batsman has done in bowling conditions, ever and not any other performance come close.

I can name at least 5 more series where conditions were more difficult than the England tour of 2011. But i am getting tired of this endless debate now, that has boiled down to berating and abusing players.

Lets just let this rest.

 

[tempus123]

That's one.

Two other :

NZ 2002 vs Bond - The most difficult.
England 2011.

Dravid, at the end of his career scored those 3 hundreds in very very hard conditions.

I am not saying Dravid is better than Tendulkar, I think Tendulkar is better. But to say that Dravid never played well in hard conditions is so not true. This Dravid performance is the best any Indian batsman has done in bowling conditions, ever and not any other performance come close.

England 2011 was probably the only exception (one or two here and there you can find if you nitpick).

Consistency was lacking in Dravid's game. He was India's best batsman during 2001-2006, and in 2011 England tour. He was mostly rubbish otherwise. His record in Aus and SA was way below acceptable standard.

 

[Ab Fan]

To be fair, the reason why Sachin/Lara are rated higher is because of the domination they shown in the most competitive era of cricket i.e.90s...Also maintaining a consistency and a top level performance in each format of game is a difficult task...That's the reason why ABD is rated as best batsmen of this era ahead of Amla and others...In a same way,SRT is rated as best batsmen of his generation along with Lara/ponting and ahead of dravid,kallis etc who weren't that great in odis...kallis avgs 44 in odis but doesn't have impact like SRT or ponting in odis...

 

[soso_killer]

England 2011 was probably the only exception (one or two here and there you can find if you nitpick).

Consistency was lacking in Dravid's game. He was India's best batsman during 2001-2006, and in 2011 England tour. He was mostly rubbish otherwise. His record in Aus and SA was way below acceptable standard.

to be fair to Dravid Tendulkar averaged 37 prior to dominating Tsotsobe who is a test bowler.
Then conveniently retired on an arranged to to avoid facing Philander who was inform at the time. Dravid should not be disrespected, I'm well aware of his failings in SA, but I've never been a fan of diminishing certain to make others look great.

 

[soso_killer]

*not a test bowler

Anyway for what it's worth I rate Kallis as the 2nd best bat after SRT, with Ricky slightly behind.
Kallis was a better player of spin.
Lara was never a team player and played for himself and that counts against him.

 

[OS_89]

to be fair to Dravid Tendulkar averaged 37 prior to dominating Tsotsobe who is a test bowler.
Then conveniently retired on an arranged to to avoid facing Philander who was inform at the time. Dravid should not be disrespected, I'm well aware of his failings in SA, but I've never been a fan of diminishing certain to make others look great.

"dominating Tsotsobe"

That's rubbish. In that 2010-11 series, Steyn was at his very peak and Morkel was outstanding as well. His runs were of the highest quality and to brush it off as dominating the weaker part of the attack is totally unfair.

 

[Hitman]

"dominating Tsotsobe"

That's rubbish. In that 2010-11 series, Steyn was at his very peak and Morkel was outstanding as well. His runs were of the highest quality and to brush it off as dominating the weaker part of the attack is totally unfair.

Cricinfo rated his 146 (or 147) as the best Test innings of that year.

 

[OS_89]

Cricinfo rated his 146 (or 147) as the best Test innings of that year.

Personally thought Clarke's 151 should have won, but yes, Sachin's 146 was a great, great knock. Masterclass of technique against one of the bext spells I have ever seen.

 

[Ab Fan]

England 2011 was probably the only exception (one or two here and there you can find if you nitpick).

Consistency was lacking in Dravid's game. He was India's best batsman during 2001-2006, and in 2011 England tour. He was mostly rubbish otherwise. His record in Aus and SA was way below acceptable standard.


Its unfair to say that Dravid record was poor against Aus...He played a crucial role in two memorable test victories against Aus.If we dont look at stats and just go with memories, then Dravid has his moments against Aus.

However against SA, he was poor as the stats suggest...

 

[soso_killer]

"dominating Tsotsobe"

That's rubbish. In that 2010-11 series, Steyn was at his very peak and Morkel was outstanding as well. His runs were of the highest quality and to brush it off as dominating the weaker part of the attack is totally unfair.

there was an analysis of that series somewhere, Tendulkar basically survived Steyn. That's all, I thing he averaged 40 runs per hundred balls against Steyn, and scored quickly against Tsotsobe and Harris. Morkel is erratic and nothing more than a 3rd seamer.
In 07 Sachin could not get Pollock away, Ntini gave him no rest bite either. That's what lacked in that series, someone to keep the pressure after Steyn.

 

[Ab Fan]

Also Dravid played a crucial inning of 93 in India's memorable win in perth in 2007 by setting a platform in the first inning..

 

[Sachin136]

4. Top ranked ICC player/ICC ratings for several years. Sachin was good in this category but no where near the best.

Not sure what you're talking about...

 

[OS_89]

there was an analysis of that series somewhere, Tendulkar basically survived Steyn. That's all, I thing he averaged 40 runs per hundred balls against Steyn, and scored quickly against Tsotsobe and Harris. Morkel is erratic and nothing more than a 3rd seamer.
In 07 Sachin could not get Pollock away, Ntini gave him no rest bite either. That's what lacked in that series, someone to keep the pressure after Steyn.

Then you donot understand how cricket works. The whole point of test cricket is to survive a great bowler bowling an unplayable spell and smash the inferior bowlers when they come on to bowl.

And Morkel was brilliant as well. Sachin and Gambhir surviving that 10-15 over spell was incredible. It was unplayable bowling.

 

[OS_89]

Also Dravid played a crucial inning of 93 in India's memorable win in perth in 2007 by setting a platform in the first inning..

True. Quite an underrated Dravid innings. Vital knock.

The thing with Dravid was that he was not even close to Tendulkar when it comes to consistency vs Aus, but he played 3-4 amazing knocks that had a huge contribution to wins. Kolkata, Adelaide 03 (both innings), Perth 08. So it's fair to give Dravid a pass. He was definitely poor vs SA though.

 

[Sachin136]

Then you donot understand how cricket works. The whole point of test cricket is to survive a great bowler bowling an unplayable spell and smash the inferior bowlers when they come on to bowl.

And Morkel was brilliant as well. Sachin and Gambhir surviving that 10-15 over spell was incredible. It was unplayable bowling.

Scoring against a great bowler is important too, but a SR of 40 is hardly considered bad.

 

[soso_killer]

Cricinfo rated his 146 (or 147) as the best Test innings of that year.

I don't take cricinfo seriously. They rated KP's innings better than Amla's 196, when 1) Amla scored quicker, 2) tougher pitch as 40 wickets fell in that match with both teams dismissed under 250 in the 1st innings 3) Only 2 centuries where scored in that match IIRC 4) Series on the balance 5) average runs per wicket suggest Amla's knock was far superior.
I could go on and on, rather post your own opinion rather than the idiots at cricinfo

 

[OS_89]

I don't take cricinfo seriously. They rated KP's innings better than Amla's 196, when 1) Amla scored quicker, 2) tougher pitch as 40 wickets fell in that match with both teams dismissed under 250 in the 1st innings 3) Only 2 centuries where scored in that match IIRC 4) Series on the balance 5) average runs per wicket suggest Amla's knock was far superior.
I could go on and on, rather post your own opinion rather than the idiots at cricinfo

Lol it's obvious you didn't watch KP's innings then and are basing your entire opinion by looking at a scorecard.

Pietersen's innings at Mumbai was a masterpiece. No doubt.

 

[soso_killer]

I don't take cricinfo seriously. They rated KP's innings better than Amla's 196, when 1) Amla scored quicker, 2) tougher pitch as 40 wickets fell in that match with both teams dismissed under 250 in the 1st innings 3) Only 2 centuries where scored in that match IIRC 4) Series on the balance 5) average runs per wicket suggest Amla's knock was far superior.
I could go on and on, rather post your own opinion rather than the idiots at cricinfo

Then you donot understand how cricket works. The whole point of test cricket is to survive a great bowler bowling an unplayable spell and smash the inferior bowlers when they come on to bowl.

And Morkel was brilliant as well. Sachin and Gambhir surviving that 10-15 over spell was incredible. It was unplayable bowling.

the 2011 Attack was our weakest since readmission in our home conditions. It's not that I don't rate surviving a great bowler. I just didn't rate our attack, no one kept the pressure after Steyn.
Which is different to Donald/de Villiers, Donald/Pollock, Pollock/Ntini, Steyn/Philander.

 

[OS_89]

Scoring against a great bowler is important too, but a SR of 40 is hardly considered bad.

It's not nearly as important as people make it out to be. The point of an innings is to get the runs. Getting the runs against one specific bowler does not really make a difference. Unless you're like Viv where you tear apart every single bowler, it really does not matter.

 

[OS_89]

the 2011 Attack was our weakest since readmission in our home conditions. It's not that I don't rate surviving a great bowler. I just didn't rate our attack, no one kept the pressure after Steyn.
Which is different to Donald/de Villiers, Donald/Pollock, Pollock/Ntini, Steyn/Philander.

Underrating Morkel in that series. Bowled very well.

And no one says that attack was your best ever. Just that that spell from Steyn was as good as anything anyone has ever produced.

 

[soso_killer]

I don't take cricinfo seriously. They rated KP's innings better than Amla's 196, when 1) Amla scored quicker, 2) tougher pitch as 40 wickets fell in that match with both teams dismissed under 250 in the 1st innings 3) Only 2 centuries where scored in that match IIRC 4) Series on the balance 5) average runs per wicket suggest Amla's knock was far superior.
I could go on and on, rather post your own opinion rather than the idiots at cricinfo

To be fair, the reason why Sachin/Lara are rated higher is because of the domination they shown in the most competitive era of cricket i.e.90s...Also maintaining a consistency and a top level performance in each format of game is a difficult task...That's the reason why ABD is rated as best batsmen of this era ahead of Amla and others...In a same way,SRT is rated as best batsmen of his generation along with Lara/ponting and ahead of dravid,kallis etc who weren't that great in odis...kallis avgs 44 in odis but doesn't have impact like SRT or ponting in odis...

that so we clear AB is nowhere near Amla as a Test bat. AB is in danger of becoming the next Tendulkar, which is bot good.
Averages 40 in every major country like Tendulkar,the last I checked no player has scored more away runs or at a betteraverage than AB since he debuted for SA. I say 'so what'?
It's not stats alone that make a player great, it's the gall bladder which AB has lacked at times like Tendulkar.
I'm still looking for the AB innings or series like Amla's 196 or Amla's series in India where he played every type of innings (attacking or defending). Smith 154 against England to win the series, Kallis' series against Ambrose & Walsh where everyone averaged under 40 bar Kallis and Rhodes, Kallis match saving ton against Warne, Kallis' 99 solo effort against a top attack (Warne/McGrath-/Lee), Kallis in India 2001, Kallis in Pakistan 07.
AB like Sachin, despite all the talent in the world lacks that innings that makes you stand up and say "S.O.B"

 

[soso_killer]

Underrating Morkel in that series. Bowled very well.

And no one says that attack was your best ever. Just that that spell from Steyn was as good as anything anyone has ever produced.

Morkel would bowl four good deliveries and two bad ones an over, he still does it today. Frustrating really, always realises pressure

 

[soso_killer]

Lol it's obvious you didn't watch KP's innings then and are basing your entire opinion by looking at a scorecard.

Pietersen's innings at Mumbai was a masterpiece. No doubt.

oh I did, just not better than Amla's no way

 

[Ab Fan]

that so we clear AB is nowhere near Amla as a Test bat. AB is in danger of becoming the next Tendulkar, which is bot good.
Averages 40 in every major country like Tendulkar,the last I checked no player has scored more away runs or at a betteraverage than AB since he debuted for SA. I say 'so what'?
It's not stats alone that make a player great, it's the gall bladder which AB has lacked at times like Tendulkar.



Its not true that Ab or SRT doesnt have memorable innings or they are bottlers in pressure situation...They have certainly shown meattle in pressure games like sachin 136 in 1999 or his 175 in odis against Aus in 2008 oe even Abd inning against pak in this wc..Its just that they havent got support from others to turn them into a match winning inning..So to be fair to them, its more to do with luck i guess...

 

[bill_123]

In tests i rate Lara as the Greatest Test bat of the previous generation. He had his flaws but his Greatness outdid every other bat of that era by a decent margin. The difference was marginal between someone like lara and ponting but the difference was still there. I rate Tendulkar as a great in tests but not as highly as most others do because even though he had a tight technique and looked like he could average a 57-60 with tons of memorable innings, He did neither. He played a few memorable knocks however for a career spread across 2+ decades and 200 tests he should have had a lot more memorable knocks. Sure we can argue on him having more talent that a lot of others but even in this department i felt lara had more gifts. Lara had bigger flaws than sachin in his technique but his gifts were also superior to sachin/ponting. On just the account of a batsman playing better knock i say even dravid beats sachin. Overall i would say Lara and Ponting were the best followed by Dravid and Sachin. Kallis and Sangakkara are up there as well.

The same metrics apply to the current bats as well

In Tests i rate Amla as the best bat in the world. Sure amla has his flaws in ODIs where his records are not perfect and neither does he have enough great ICC knocks but in Tests Amla has been Outstanding, Even ABD isnt as good as he is. Amla has already played all sorts of knocks on different surfaces

Amla's 196 was probably one of the GREATEST test knocks of the last decade. we also have his hundreds in India(2010), Triple in England(Fight for No 1), Match saving knock in Sri lanka(2014), 4th inning 100 against aus(2012) etc

 

[Romali_rotti]

there was an analysis of that series somewhere, Tendulkar basically survived Steyn. That's all, I thing he averaged 40 runs per hundred balls against Steyn, and scored quickly against Tsotsobe and Harris. Morkel is erratic and nothing more than a 3rd seamer.
In 07 Sachin could not get Pollock away, Ntini gave him no rest bite either. That's what lacked in that series, someone to keep the pressure after Steyn.

If thats the case I want to see how much Kallis wouldve scored off Lee and Mcgrath in Aus 2 bowlers who gave him a lot of trouble. I have a gut feeling Kallis was seeing these 2 off and not scoring many runs. Same goes for Lara who was Mcgrath's bunny, curious to see how much he scored off Mcgrath in Aus...

 

[tempus123]

to be fair to Dravid Tendulkar averaged 37 prior to dominating Tsotsobe who is a test bowler.
Then conveniently retired on an arranged to to avoid facing Philander who was inform at the time. Dravid should not be disrespected, I'm well aware of his failings in SA, but I've never been a fan of diminishing certain to make others look great.

Ha ha ha.. People have different claims.

1. He retired from ODIs to save facing the wrath of Ajmal.
2. He retired from Tests to save himself from Philander.. lol..

 

[Romali_rotti]

to be fair to Dravid Tendulkar averaged 37 prior to dominating Tsotsobe who is a test bowler.

SRT avgd 40 in SA if I remember correctly thanks to a lot of Hansie Cronje and Brian Mcmillan's bowling prior to taking on Steyn and Co....

 

[tempus123]

In tests i rate Lara as the Greatest Test bat of the previous generation. He had his flaws but his Greatness outdid every other bat of that era by a decent margin. The difference was marginal between someone like lara and ponting but the difference was still there. I rate Tendulkar as a great in tests but not as highly as most others do because even though he had a tight technique and looked like he could average a 57-60 with tons of memorable innings, He did neither. He played a few memorable knocks however for a career spread across 2+ decades and 200 tests he should have had a lot more memorable knocks. Sure we can argue on him having more talent that a lot of others but even in this department i felt lara had more gifts. Lara had bigger flaws than sachin in his technique but his gifts were also superior to sachin/ponting. On just the account of a batsman playing better knock i say even dravid beats sachin. Overall i would say Lara and Ponting were the best followed by Dravid and Sachin. Kallis and Sangakkara are up there as well.

The same metrics apply to the current bats as well

In Tests i rate Amla as the best bat in the world. Sure amla has his flaws in ODIs where his records are not perfect and neither does he have enough great ICC knocks but in Tests Amla has been Outstanding, Even ABD isnt as good as he is. Amla has already played all sorts of knocks on different surfaces

Amla's 196 was probably one of the GREATEST test knocks of the last decade. we also have his hundreds in India(2010), Triple in England(Fight for No 1), Match saving knock in Sri lanka(2014), 4th inning 100 against aus(2012) etc

He did average 56-57 in 2010-11.. he should have retired after the WC but then he played on longer and reduced the average to low 50s.

 

[tempus123]

to be fair to Dravid Tendulkar averaged 37 prior to dominating Tsotsobe who is a test bowler.
Then conveniently retired on an arranged to to avoid facing Philander who was inform at the time. Dravid should not be disrespected, I'm well aware of his failings in SA, but I've never been a fan of diminishing certain to make others look great.

Average is not everything.. Dravid scored only one good hundred in 1997 in SA.. and did not score much o/w.. Tendulkar despite failing in SA, kept on scoring one hundred almost tour to make it a success.

If one scores a hundred in almost every tour of a country, I will call him a success, despite him scoring 10s in 6 other innings.. the hundred proves that he is able to play at a higher level.

Of course he played badly in other innings to make his average suffer.. so nobody can call him a super success.. but Dravid didn't even do that.

 

[Ab Fan]

In tests i rate Lara as the Greatest Test bat of the previous generation. He had his flaws but his Greatness outdid every other bat of that era by a decent margin. The difference was marginal between someone like lara and ponting but the difference was still there. I rate Tendulkar as a great in tests but not as highly as most others do because even though he had a tight technique and looked like he could average a 57-60 with tons of memorable innings, He did neither. He played a few memorable knocks however for a career spread across 2+ decades and 200 tests he should have had a lot more memorable knocks. Sure we can argue on him having more talent that a lot of others but even in this department i felt lara had more gifts. Lara had bigger flaws than sachin in his technique but his gifts were also superior to sachin/ponting. On just the account of a batsman playing better knock i say even dravid beats sachin. Overall i would say Lara and Ponting were the best followed by Dravid and Sachin. Kallis and Sangakkara are up there as well.

The same metrics apply to the current bats as well

In Tests i rate Amla as the best bat in the world. Sure amla has his flaws in ODIs where his records are not perfect and neither does he have enough great ICC knocks but in Tests Amla has been Outstanding, Even ABD isnt as good as he is. Amla has already played all sorts of knocks on different surfaces

Amla's 196 was probably one of the GREATEST test knocks of the last decade. we also have his hundreds in India(2010), Triple in England(Fight for No 1), Match saving knock in Sri lanka(2014), 4th inning 100 against aus(2012) etc

Amla 196 was a great knock but by no means one of the greatest knocks of the decade.Even Ab scored 169 in that inning and at a faster strike rate.Smith also played a crucial inning.The conditions were difficult but there was no pressure at all.Faf 100 on debut,AB special tuk-tuk of 33 from 220 balls, Mcullum triple century,clarke 151 vs SA IN 2011,Kp masterpiece in mumbai were all better knocks and the list just goes on...

 

[sivaji]

that so we clear AB is nowhere near Amla as a Test bat. AB is in danger of becoming the next Tendulkar, which is bot good.
Averages 40 in every major country like Tendulkar,the last I checked no player has scored more away runs or at a betteraverage than AB since he debuted for SA. I say 'so what'?
It's not stats alone that make a player great, it's the gall bladder which AB has lacked at times like Tendulkar.
I'm still looking for the AB innings or series like Amla's 196 or Amla's series in India where he played every type of innings (attacking or defending). Smith 154 against England to win the series, Kallis' series against Ambrose & Walsh where everyone averaged under 40 bar Kallis and Rhodes, Kallis match saving ton against Warne, Kallis' 99 solo effort against a top attack (Warne/McGrath-/Lee), Kallis in India 2001, Kallis in Pakistan 07.
AB like Sachin, despite all the talent in the world lacks that innings that makes you stand up and say "S.O.B"

Just point you to go watch the AB's 4th innings hundred to win the test in Australia.. also his hundreds against red hot Mitchell Johnson. the one in 2009.

 

[sivaji]

Lara and Sachin are both over rated. Lara is not consistent. Doesn't have hundreds against Doland, Akram, sucked in India etc. Sachin was a bottler.

 

[Ab Fan]

Just point you to go watch the AB's 4th innings hundred to win the test in Australia.. also his hundreds against red hot Mitchell Johnson. the one in 2009.

Yup..that 100 against johnson was another great knock in johannesburg.Both Smith and amla were out for score of 0&1.However SA lost that match by a margin.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Much respect to Ponting for totally blowing away the competition. In all my stay at PP, this has turned out to be the most conclusive of all threads and has shown exactly where the 2nd tier batsmen stand in people's minds.


Ponting > None > Sanga > Dravid > Kallis

 

[tempus123]

Much respect to Ponting for totally blowing away the competition. In all my stay at PP, this has turned out to be the most conclusive of all threads and has shown exactly where the 2nd tier batsmen stand in people's minds.


Ponting > None > Sanga > Dravid > Kallis

Kallis should be rated above Dravid.

 

[tempus123]

Lara and Sachin are both over rated. Lara is not consistent. Doesn't have hundreds against Doland, Akram, sucked in India etc. Sachin was a bottler.

Everyone is overrated then.. no one succeeded in all conditions against all bowlers.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Kallis should be rated above Dravid.

Yeah agreed, I would rate Sanga ahead of Dravid also. Dravid imo is not a top 5 batsmen..

 

[tempus123]

Yeah agreed, I would rate Sanga ahead of Dravid also. Dravid imo is not a top 5 batsmen..

I think a separate thread should be there to analyse Dravid's failures in SA and Australia to make things clear.

 

[Aman]

Didn't Amla's 190 come against a pretty ordinary Aussie attack? [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION]

 

[Aman]

Much respect to Ponting for totally blowing away the competition. In all my stay at PP, this has turned out to be the most conclusive of all threads and has shown exactly where the 2nd tier batsmen stand in people's minds.


Ponting > None > Sanga > Dravid > Kallis

All it proves is Ponting isn't a second tier batsmen like you think he is.

Which is remarkable considering the dominance he showed over 5-6 years.

 

[tempus123]

I have created a separate thread for it, but just for reference giving the link for Lara's match winning contributions :

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-s-match-winning-centuries-and-half-centuries

 

[Convict]

Didn't Amla's 190 come against a pretty ordinary Aussie attack? [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION]

Bloody John Hastings opening the bowling at the WACA

Mitchell Starc absolute rubbish as well. Got a token 5fer due to bowling all day.

Batted well though.

Have to say that even though we got smashed I really did enjoy watching that Amla innings at the ground. Beautiful batting

 

[Bhaijaan]

All it proves is Ponting isn't a second tier batsmen like you think he is.

Which is remarkable considering the dominance he showed over 5-6 years.

I suggested the same actually if you followed all my posts and if you ever bothered to read to OP.

Ponting is the only one in this league that probably and most definitely belongs to the click. Rest have been brutally rejected in the most neutral poll ever.

 

[Mobashir]

Rank the top 15 test innings played by Lara and Tendulkar and see by yourself who played the best innings!

 

[Sidilicious]

Rank the top 15 test innings played by Lara and Tendulkar and see by yourself who played the best innings!

But then why do greats like Bradman and Benaud rate Tendlya higher than Lara? Both of them have included Sachin in their XI and not Lara. Most cricket greats rate Tendulkar higher than Lara.

Secondy, define a great innings? Is it match innings. Then please look at the thread by Tempus stating that Lara has only 8 100s in wins. If the criteria is a) bowlers, b) Pitch ?

And Finally, assuming that Lara played greater innings than Tendulkar, and as suggested by you only great innings is a criteria, then both Greats such as Bradman and Benaud are wrong?

 

[tempus123]

Rank the top 15 test innings played by Lara and Tendulkar and see by yourself who played the best innings!

Why top 15 and not top 50.. ohh.. Lara didn't have 50 centuries.

 

[tempus123]

But then why do greats like Bradman and Benaud rate Tendlya higher than Lara? Both of them have included Sachin in their XI and not Lara. Most cricket greats rate Tendulkar higher than Lara.

Secondy, define a great innings? Is it match innings. Then please look at the thread by Tempus stating that Lara has only 8 100s in wins. If the criteria is a) bowlers, b) Pitch ?

And Finally, assuming that Lara played greater innings than Tendulkar, and as suggested by you only great innings is a criteria, then both Greats such as Bradman and Benaud are wrong?

In that thread, you can see people are coming up with the new definitions of "match winning" innings, their previous logics have changed now to uphold their favourite player.

To be fair to Richie Benaud, he considered Tendulkar to be the best batsman after Bradman, and added that not much separated him and Lara.

 

[Sidilicious]

In that thread, you can see people are coming up with the new definitions of "match winning" innings, their previous logics have changed now to uphold their favourite player.

Once your stats have proved their definition of match winnings wrong, they are now looking for other methods just to help their case.

To be fair to Richie Benaud, he considered Tendulkar to be the best batsman after Bradman, and added that not much separated him and Lara.

Indeed, and thats my opinion too. Sachin is no.2 ahead of Lara. But just by a bit. Not by a huge difference as the Sachinistas might argue.

But to state that Sachin is no where in the top 5, or was not a match winner, which is the common myth propagated on this forum shows a bit of hatred.

 

[tempus123]

Once your stats have proved their definition of match winnings wrong, they are now looking for other methods just to help their case.




Indeed, and thats my opinion too. Sachin is no.2 ahead of Lara. But just by a bit. Not by a huge difference as the Sachinistas might argue.

But to state that Sachin is no where in the top 5, or was not a match winner, which is the common myth propagated on this forum shows a bit of hatred.

There can be two reasons most Pakistanis prefer Lara to Tendulkar.

1. Praising Lara gives them the high to downplay the enemy.

2. Tendulkar hasn't played much against Pakistan, and whatever he played wasn't very successful against them in Test matches.

The other genuine reason of course can be that they indeed find Lara better considering all parameters, which is fair enough.

 

[Sidilicious]

There can be two reasons most Pakistanis prefer Lara to Tendulkar.

1. Praising Lara gives them the high to downplay the enemy.

2. Tendulkar hasn't played much against Pakistan, and whatever he played wasn't very successful against them in Test matches.

The other genuine reason of course can be that they indeed find Lara better considering all parameters, which is fair enough.

I dont have a problem with others rating Lara above Tendlya. Its their opinion!

But using random excuses to prove it, IMHO that becomes a bit stupid.

 

[tempus123]

I dont have a problem with others rating Lara above Tendlya. Its their opinion!

But using random excuses to prove it, IMHO that becomes a bit stupid.

Yes.. our job is to expose the hypocritical stupidity.

 

[soso_killer]

that so we clear AB is nowhere near Amla as a Test bat. AB is in danger of becoming the next Tendulkar, which is bot good.
Averages 40 in every major country like Tendulkar,the last I checked no player has scored more away runs or at a betteraverage than AB since he debuted for SA. I say 'so what'?
It's not stats alone that make a player great, it's the gall bladder which AB has lacked at times like Tendulkar.



Its not true that Ab or SRT doesnt have memorable innings or they are bottlers in pressure situation...They have certainly shown meattle in pressure games like sachin 136 in 1999 or his 175 in odis against Aus in 2008 oe even Abd inning against pak in this wc..Its just that they havent got support from others to turn them into a match winning inning..So to be fair to them, its more to do with luck i guess...

AB has played some good knocks, no denying that. However what he hasn't played for me is the knock that I can call his own (be it match winning/saving or series win), a knock that fulfils the purpose of the match in a particular situation (win/save)
It's funny how you brought up "luck", players with mettle always execute against all odds. Atherton vs Donald (180), he saw it threw, that was his match, that was his innings.
Smith against a sledging Fleming, scored a brilliant 125* to level the series 1-1. Luck? Well he would get "lucky" again in England scoring another brilliant 154* to lead SA to a historic win. Rated in the top 5 knocks of all time.
He would do it again in Australia leading from the front chasing a daunting total of 414. Yeah sure he didn't finish that innings but he showed his team mate tough runs can be scored if you apply the right attitude. He was again positive and attacking in that innings which brought belief to his mates. AB scored a ton in that match and later admitted he wouldn't have felt assured without Kallis by his side. He allowed AB to express himself while giving nothing away at the other end.
JP in the very same series came in to bat with SA trailing Australia by 177, with the tail to come. It's funny that it was him who played that innings not AB.
Faf's marathon required some help, AB played a brilliant knock which I rate more than his 100 in that famous chase. Again it's ironic that it was Faf who saw off that innings. What's interesting is what Faf said after that epic match saving ton, he felt more comfortable with Kallis at the other end rather than his best friend who he knew since high school. Even though Faf was the senior partner to Kallis in that innings he told him to play his shots, I.e put the bad balls away. It's because some players have presence on the field of play (presence to assure your team mates the impossible can be done) and AB lacks that.
Yeah sure some iconic innings need accomplices, the guy at the other end to hang in there (Matthews-Herath), but AB has never been ruthless enough to see things through.
The test in Jo'burg is a classic case, did all the hardwork and just when it seemed a draw would turn into an improbable victory, when greatness was starring him in the eyes he bottled it. Got out to Sharma of all bowlers. Smith,Amla, Kallis would have seen it through from that position because they simply knew how to win test matches the hard way.
AB is someone who can play well and still win comfortably against because he is not a ruthless match winner. You quoted his innings in the world cup against Pakistan, well he played a better one against Ajmal in SA. do you know what's similar about those innings? Despite being in prime form, despite being the only one to attack he didn't see it through and SA still lost. (I'm not blaming by the way, just pointing out the flaws in him.) When you start something finish it, be it seeing out a draw, the last guy stranded or pulling a rabbit out the hat and winning a match from an unlikely position

 

[soso_killer]

Didn't Amla's 190 come against a pretty ordinary Aussie attack? [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION]

that ordinary attack still took 20 wickets, that attack dismissed SA within 70 overs under 250. Thanks to Faf we managed to get there, else SA would have been bowled out for 160 themselves.

 

[soso_killer]

Amla 196 was a great knock but by no means one of the greatest knocks of the decade.Even Ab scored 169 in that inning and at a faster strike rate.Smith also played a crucial inning.The conditions were difficult but there was no pressure at all.Faf 100 on debut,AB special tuk-tuk of 33 from 220 balls, Mcullum triple century,clarke 151 vs SA IN 2011,Kp masterpiece in mumbai were all better knocks and the list just goes on...

of course AB scored at a quicker rate, that's to be expected when coming at 280 odd/3.
By the way only two hundreds were scored in that match (Amla and AB).
No pressure? You mean being dismissed under 250 with the #1 ranking at stake is no pressure?
When Amla came in SA had just lost an early wicket and everyone thought here comes another collapse.
What Amla did is beyond comprehensible, even an out and out attacking player (KP, Sehwag, Ponting, Viv) would have been proud. Amla can attack we all know that, but that's not his only way, so for him to do that was special. Would have been easy to take the tuk-tuk approach, but he took the game and series by the throat and attacked. Scored 99 runs in a session denied by Clarke lack of sportsmanship instructing his bowlers to bowl wide and waste time. Only Smith's 154 was better than that innings in this decade.

 

[Mobashir]

Why top 15 and not top 50.. ohh.. Lara didn't have 50 centuries.

Do it for top 50.
I meant a mix ranking, not top 50 for Tendulkar and top 50 for Lara. A mix one.

 

[soso_killer]

SRT avgd 40 in SA if I remember correctly thanks to a lot of Hansie Cronje and Brian Mcmillan's bowling prior to taking on Steyn and Co....

my mistake he averaged 39.
But did struggle in SA himself, not just Dravid. The difference I guess is he would play one innings scoring a daddy hundred and disappear after. 2011 was the one time he showed consistency. Not fair to sell Dravid when everyone struggled.

 

[soso_killer]

If thats the case I want to see how much Kallis wouldve scored off Lee and Mcgrath in Aus 2 bowlers who gave him a lot of trouble. I have a gut feeling Kallis was seeing these 2 off and not scoring many runs. Same goes for Lara who was Mcgrath's bunny, curious to see how much he scored off Mcgrath in Aus...

Australia still had another bowler to keep it tight in Warne. That's 3 good bowlers that have done well against us.
Like I said, nothing wrong in seeing a good/great bowler. It's just that the SA attack was poor, the worst we've had since readmission. No one consistently applied the pressure after Steyn.
Tendulkar is no mug, and definitely ain't stupid. He knew he would see of Steyn (which in itself is difficult( and attack the other mugs.
He didn't have that pleasure in previous tours, which explains his inconsistencies.

 

[Romali_rotti]

What the heck you on about ?

Morkel during that series in 2010:

3 66 28 16.50 0 15 5/20 24.06

 

[Bhaijaan]

SoSo

Daddy hundreds matter. Tendulkar hit a few of those in RSA in at least 3 different tours in 3 different eras. He hit one heck of a hundred in the 90s , then in 2000s he blew your attack at Bloemfontein and then in the 2010s he blew away Steyn twice. Credit where its due, Tendulkar faced quality attacks in RSA, you dont always own them. Sometimes they own you, and sometimes you own them. Tendulkar to his credit got the better of them royally when it got going for him.

 

[OS_89]

SoSo

Daddy hundreds matter. Tendulkar hit a few of those in RSA in at least 3 different tours in 3 different eras. He hit one heck of a hundred in the 90s , then in 2000s he blew your attack at Bloemfontein and then in the 2010s he blew away Steyn twice. Credit where its due, Tendulkar faced quality attacks in RSA, you dont always own them. Sometimes they own you, and sometimes you own them. Tendulkar to his credit got the better of them royally when it got going for him.

Actually two. His 111 at Joburg in 1992 is an overlooked gem. Unbelievable innings. The 169 at Capetown everyone knows.

 

[soso_killer]

What the heck you on about ?

Morkel during that series in 2010:

3 66 28 16.50 0 15 5/20 24.06

Like said Morkel was erratic and has always been like that. He often bowls 3/4 good balls then a few loose ones to realise the pressure. Which explains why he never wins us matches.
Despite an average of 24 in SA conditions, I can't remember him winning games on his own like Ntini use to support Pollock.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Actually two. His 111 at Joburg in 1992 is an overlooked gem. Unbelievable innings. The 169 at Capetown everyone knows.

So Tendulkar hit scintillating hundreds in 1992, 1996, 2001, 2010, 2010.


.. and there are still people who want to argue he failed in South Africa. What has this world come down to, Ponting averages freaking 26 in India after 14 tests, go debate that.

 

[soso_killer]

SoSo

Daddy hundreds matter. Tendulkar hit a few of those in RSA in at least 3 different tours in 3 different eras. He hit one heck of a hundred in the 90s , then in 2000s he blew your attack at Bloemfontein and then in the 2010s he blew away Steyn twice. Credit where its due, Tendulkar faced quality attacks in RSA, you dont always own them. Sometimes they own you, and sometimes you own them. Tendulkar to his credit got the better of them royally when it got going for him.

who said they didn't? They shouldn't hide struggles either.
I first saw Tendulkar in 92 scored his 1st ton on his first visit which is an achievement in itself. But struggled overall, which is to be expected in ones 1st tour.
In 96 he scored one score of 50+ (in 6 innings) which was his best knock in this country. That innings alone constituted over 70% of his runs in that tour. You can't expect to win in places like South Africa were you perform like that and then blame the bowlers when they were hardly given anything significant to bowl at the whole series.
The knock in Bloemfontein was scored against a quality attack (albeit without Donald). But the pitch wasn't all that, and SA don't play test matches there. His 112, and 169 were far superior.
The only level of consistency his shown was in 2011 tour. Unsurprisingly India found themselves in a winning position in the 3rd test. When your best player scores consistently enough you'll find yourself in winning positions more often than not. Unfortunately India ran into a brilliant Kallis that day.
The 2011 tour is India's best in this country.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Like said Morkel was erratic and has always been like that. He often bowls 3/4 good balls then a few loose ones to realise the pressure. Which explains why he never wins us matches.
Despite an average of 24 in SA conditions, I can't remember him winning games on his own like Ntini use to support Pollock.

You have your greatest fast bowler your country has ever produced at one end and another one bowling with an avg of 24.. Yeah Ok buddy, you make a lot of sense...

 

[Tusker]

[MENTION=74271]O[/MENTION]P

To be honest Tendulkar is well ahead of Lara especially so if you consider ODI's. Even if you look at just Test cricket Tendulkar beats Lara quite comfortably given that he has faced a longer list of ATG bowlers and has handled them quite well from a very young age of 16 till retiring.

No matter how you slice and dice their stats Tendulkar will always come ahead except for the double hundreds. And as I said if ODI's are included he leaves Lara far behind.

 

[Ab Fan]

of course AB scored at a quicker rate, that's to be expected when coming at 280 odd/3.
By the way only two hundreds were scored in that match (Amla and AB).
No pressure? You mean being dismissed under 250 with the #1 ranking at stake is no pressure?
When Amla came in SA had just lost an early wicket and everyone thought here comes another collapse.
What Amla did is beyond comprehensible, even an out and out attacking player (KP, Sehwag, Ponting, Viv) would have been proud. Amla can attack we all know that, but that's not his only way, so for him to do that was special. Would have been easy to take the tuk-tuk approach, but he took the game and series by the throat and attacked. Scored 99 runs in a session denied by Clarke lack of sportsmanship instructing his bowlers to bowl wide and waste time. Only Smith's 154 was better than that innings in this decade.

SA were already having a lead of 60 runs in the first inning..Amla played a great inning but he got support from Smith who played a crucial inning of 84 from 100 balls...You didn't mention Smith inning but it was as good as you get...Then AB supported him and played another big inning...So I don't understand where the pressure really was...Amla has always been good in building big partnerships and rotating strike...He did the same there also..There is nothing new in that...There are hardly very few match where he has been a lone warrior for his team and played great knocks...

 

[Ab Fan]

AB has played some good knocks, no denying that. However what he hasn't played for me is the knock that I can call his own (be it match winning/saving or series win), a knock that fulfils the purpose of the match in a particular situation (win/save)
It's funny how you brought up "luck", players with mettle always execute against all odds. Atherton vs Donald (180), he saw it threw, that was his match, that was his innings.
Smith against a sledging Fleming, scored a brilliant 125* to level the series 1-1. Luck? Well he would get "lucky" again in England scoring another brilliant 154* to lead SA to a historic win. Rated in the top 5 knocks of all time.
He would do it again in Australia leading from the front chasing a daunting total of 414. Yeah sure he didn't finish that innings but he showed his team mate tough runs can be scored if you apply the right attitude. He was again positive and attacking in that innings which brought belief to his mates. AB scored a ton in that match and later admitted he wouldn't have felt assured without Kallis by his side. He allowed AB to express himself while giving nothing away at the other end.
JP in the very same series came in to bat with SA trailing Australia by 177, with the tail to come. It's funny that it was him who played that innings not AB.
Faf's marathon required some help, AB played a brilliant knock which I rate more than his 100 in that famous chase. Again it's ironic that it was Faf who saw off that innings. What's interesting is what Faf said after that epic match saving ton, he felt more comfortable with Kallis at the other end rather than his best friend who he knew since high school. Even though Faf was the senior partner to Kallis in that innings he told him to play his shots, I.e put the bad balls away. It's because some players have presence on the field of play (presence to assure your team mates the impossible can be done) and AB lacks that.
Yeah sure some iconic innings need accomplices, the guy at the other end to hang in there (Matthews-Herath), but AB has never been ruthless enough to see things through.
The test in Jo'burg is a classic case, did all the hardwork and just when it seemed a draw would turn into an improbable victory, when greatness was starring him in the eyes he bottled it. Got out to Sharma of all bowlers. Smith,Amla, Kallis would have seen it through from that position because they simply knew how to win test matches the hard way.
AB is someone who can play well and still win comfortably against because he is not a ruthless match winner. You quoted his innings in the world cup against Pakistan, well he played a better one against Ajmal in SA. do you know what's similar about those innings? Despite being in prime form, despite being the only one to attack he didn't see it through and SA still lost. (I'm not blaming by the way, just pointing out the flaws in him.) When you start something finish it, be it seeing out a draw, the last guy stranded or pulling a rabbit out the hat and winning a match from an unlikely position

Smith,I agree was a clutch ,brave player with a never give-up attitude who showed lots of grit in tough conditions. kallis also was one of the surest player in that team who wont throw away his wicket any day..but even he too wasnt a great match winner.As far as Amla is concerned would love to know some of innings where Amla has seen it through from a losing situation or fought as a lone warrior?

 

[soso_killer]

SA were already having a lead of 60 runs in the first inning..Amla played a great inning but he got support from Smith who played a crucial inning of 84 from 100 balls...You didn't mention Smith inning but it was as good as you get...Then AB supported him and played another big inning...So I don't understand where the pressure really was...Amla has always been good in building big partnerships and rotating strike...He did the same there also..There is nothing new in that...There are hardly very few match where he has been a lone warrior for his team and played great knocks...

what is a 60 run lead?
Amla made a 50 from 36 balls IIRC and Smith was just rotating the strike at that stage. It was when Amla reached his 50 did Smith up the tempo. Amla scored at a far quicker rate. Only slowed down to consolidate a position of dominance which is smart as more than 3 days were left. Scoring 99* runs in a session says it all about who played the better innings between Smith and Amla. That's not even up for debate.
The only player who played without any pressure in that game was AB. I would also score a ton coming at 280/3.

 

[tempus123]

my mistake he averaged 39.
But did struggle in SA himself, not just Dravid. The difference I guess is he would play one innings scoring a daddy hundred and disappear after. 2011 was the one time he showed consistency. Not fair to sell Dravid when everyone struggled.

If two players failed, while one of them scored one daddy hundred every tour, would you consider both of them same? Not comparing the daddy hundred scorer with Steve Waugh.

 

[tempus123]

who said they didn't? They shouldn't hide struggles either.
I first saw Tendulkar in 92 scored his 1st ton on his first visit which is an achievement in itself. But struggled overall, which is to be expected in ones 1st tour.
In 96 he scored one score of 50+ (in 6 innings) which was his best knock in this country. That innings alone constituted over 70% of his runs in that tour. You can't expect to win in places like South Africa were you perform like that and then blame the bowlers when they were hardly given anything significant to bowl at the whole series.
The knock in Bloemfontein was scored against a quality attack (albeit without Donald). But the pitch wasn't all that, and SA don't play test matches there. His 112, and 169 were far superior.
The only level of consistency his shown was in 2011 tour. Unsurprisingly India found themselves in a winning position in the 3rd test. When your best player scores consistently enough you'll find yourself in winning positions more often than not. Unfortunately India ran into a brilliant Kallis that day.
The 2011 tour is India's best in this country.

There is no doubt Tendulkar failed in SA, but still he averaged 40+ which is kind of holding your own. No one is saying he dominated SA bowling.

 

[soso_killer]

Smith,I agree was a clutch ,brave player with a never give-up attitude who showed lots of grit in tough conditions. kallis also was one of the surest player in that team who wont throw away his wicket any day..but even he too wasnt a great match winner.As far as Amla is concerned would love to know some of innings where Amla has seen it through from a losing situation or fought as a lone warrior?

Amla has played some clutch innings, be it aiding and abetting or doing on his own. He's always there when the team needs character.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvrsa/engine/match/296909.html
Didn't to it alone but lots of hard work was required. Saved the test for us.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/indvrsa/engine/match/332911.html
probably overshadowed by Sehwag triple ton. Played brilliantly non the less.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/indvrsa2010/engine/match/441825.html
another clutch knock after having lost two early wickets.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/indvrsa2010/engine/match/441826.html
This one hurts the most as we were in a dominant position but for a collapse. Amla scored a hundred at 70, the following innings battled alone to save the match. Scored a ton of 300 balls, in a marathon innings of 390 balls. 9 balls stood between a series win. That was the Amla series battled hard and dismissed just once.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-south-africa-2013-14/engine/match/649087.html
The only player who scored a hundred for SA whilst his mates were sleeping.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/514029.html
Even though credit goes to Smith, Amla was assured himself scoring at 80 .

And we all know what he did in England and Australia when the number 1 ranking was at stake. Amla has played some gems, attacking, defending, aiding and abetting you name it. AB has very few of those. In fact I rate AB behind Gary Kirsten as a test bat.

 

[tempus123]

And we all know what he did in England and Australia when the number 1 ranking was at stake. Amla has played some gems, attacking, defending, aiding and abetting you name it. AB has very few of those. In fact I rate AB behind Gary Kirsten as a test bat.

Interesting. How do you rate Kirsten ? I found him a very difficult batsman in Test matches.

 

[soso_killer]

If two players failed, while one of them scored one daddy hundred every tour, would you consider both of them same? Not comparing the daddy hundred scorer with Steve Waugh.

yes I would. If a player battled alone consistently even without scoring a hundred I consider that successful.
If you play 6 innings a tour and score in only one of those matches then you'll lose comprehensively in that country. And everyone should shoulder the blame. Remember you're not representing yourself but your country and it's people. So one can't be content with numerous defeats and then thump himself at the back for scoring a solo ton which has no barring on the match or series

 

[soso_killer]

There is no doubt Tendulkar failed in SA, but still he averaged 40+ which is kind of holding your own. No one is saying he dominated SA bowling.

Tendulkar actually averaged 37 in SA prior to the 2011 tour, I forgot about the "unofficial" 3rd test in Pretoria. Again he didn't play well in that test.

 

[tempus123]

yes I would. If a player battled alone consistently even without scoring a hundred I consider that successful.
If you play 6 innings a tour and score in only one of those matches then you'll lose comprehensively in that country. And everyone should shoulder the blame. Remember you're not representing yourself but your country and it's people. So one can't be content with numerous defeats and then thump himself at the back for scoring a solo ton which has no barring on the match or series

As I said, I am not comparing him with Steve Waugh, neither am I saying the daddy hundred was enough to hide other failures.

But just look at whom we are comparing him with. Dravid scored one good "match winning" hundred in 1997, else he was a total failure with an average below 30.

Tendulkar, while failing in SA, did manage to score a few hundreds, almost one every tour. No one can chest thump and say he was a success in SA. He was just able to hold his own, nothing more.

 

[tempus123]

Tendulkar actually averaged 37 in SA prior to the 2011 tour, I forgot about the "unofficial" 3rd test in Pretoria. Again he didn't play well in that test.

Sorry, not interested in "unofficial" tests, neither interested in selective stats, unless you "prove" 2011 attack was second string and/or pitches were flat. I know you are trying to prove the attack second string, but once you win that argument, we can discard 2011 performance.