What's new

The Pakistani community in the UK has failed - Discuss

What is the point of the above article?? Again you are deliberately trying to change the subject by pointing out one incident thereby defying logic. the point is Mirpuris can't integrate and are terrible at their studies. When an Indian says we are much better then you at our studies I have no problems in accepting it because it is a fact. I accept it and tell them we have to improve so thanks for pointing it out! I don't say you have 400 million people living on the street's of Delhi, it's stupid.

Where is this proven one article that states Chinese have dropped 30% in two years? And lists Mirpuri's as a separate race no where else is that the case.

Watch the last Whites of the East End if you wanna see Punjabi Integration.

In fact Newham the grades received by Punjabi's was slightly less of those in Waltham which is apparently "Full of Mirpuris"

Though Newham is the most deprived area in the UK

Newham (population; 318,000) The borough recorded the worst values for deprivation, homelessness and cases of TB in the UK. 83.8% of people in Newham live in deprivation and 27.2% (19,700) of children live in poverty

http://www.wharf.co.uk/news/local-news/child-poverty-worst-tower-hamlets-9377184
 
Not a case of being touchy it is case of not giving credit where it is due. your bs about lack of integration is just not correct we have very families outdode of mirpuri in my town yet they integrated as well as marriages taking place between the communities.
 
Not a case of being touchy it is case of not giving credit where it is due. your bs about lack of integration is just not correct we have very families outdode of mirpuri in my town yet they integrated as well as marriages taking place between the communities.

Yeah marriages taking place between Mirpuri communities, I am sure there are! It's not about wanting to marry someone from your community if that is what you wrongly think. It's about the lack off education and integration.
 
[MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION] they do integrate with all communities some will stick to relatives only as they feel no need to look for friends outside. On a whole most people my age have friends across all communities. You just seem fixated on that point and anything said to refute that falls on deaf ears!

no [MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION] with punjabi community that live in our town marriages have taken place due to mutual respect and integration in the wider asain community.
 
Last edited:
Salma_T;9044149][MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION] they do integrate with all communities some will stick to relatives only as they feel no need to look for friends outside. On a whole most people my age have friends across all communities. You just seem fixated on that point and anything said to refute that falls on deaf ears!

You said the bolded part and you also said it was Mirpuris I was talking off proving many Pakistanis feel the way that I do. I am not demonising them at all as I've nothing against them. I can only speak from experience that they don't socialise with outside communities at all which is fine by me. There poor educational performance does give the entire Pakistani community a bad name.
 
[MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION] that was in reference to my mum's generation not mine or younger than me. You make friends in your school/uni/work etc and they can be from anywhere.

I have seen many of these illiterate lack of integration mirpuris welcome sons and daughter in laws from all backgrounds (I am talking about my extended family here). So you must understand why I find the lack of integration difficult to accept as that is not the case in my relatives.
 
This was not intended to be a regional debate. My family have done reasonably well which is mostly down to my parents and they were not formally educated.

There are pockets of success and the education levels are probably improving. HOWEVER, this is often minimised by the attitude of the youngsters. The youngsters often try to emulate rappers from the USA and put on West Indian accents. They seem to be aliens amongst all aspects of British society apart from their own odd subculture which is neither British nor Pakistani. These youngsters often seem to hate a lot of people. Mark my words, the White British population is aware of the behaviour of these people.

It's often the attitude of the British Pakistani population that is a problem. A lack of integration and the antisocial mentality amongst the youth in places like Birmingham, Yorkshire and London means that we have a bad reputation. We are best known for crime and antisocial behaviour (by non British Pakistanis).

That's why I say we have failed in general. Obviously restauranters, labourers and educated folk have done well and have a place in society.

Part of my question is; what do many British Pakistanis contribute to society? Absolutely zero!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION] that was in reference to my mum's generation not mine or younger than me. You make friends in your school/uni/work etc and they can be from anywhere.

I have seen many of these illiterate lack of integration mirpuris welcome sons and daughter in laws from all backgrounds (I am talking about my extended family here). So you must understand why I find the lack of integration difficult to accept as that is not the case in my relatives.

Well I am glad to hear that at least you as a family are not like that. I did not say all Mirpuris are like that as I am sure there are exceptions as well. I can only speak from my own experience with them over the years.
 
I'm a Punjabi who has quite a few Mirpuri friends. I've seen prejudice from our lot against them, and prejudice from them against us. Not much different to what is going on in this thread. But I don't have much time for it and it works out well for me and those friends. Internet forums tends to magnify the worst in people. It's like the Daily Mail of the web.
 
Well I am glad to hear that at least you as a family are not like that. I did not say all Mirpuris are like that as I am sure there are exceptions as well. I can only speak from my own experience with them over the years.

Rather than restrict to one particular segment, let's be honest and say that there are large chunks of Pathans and Punjabi origin people that are the same.
 
I'm a Punjabi who has quite a few Mirpuri friends. I've seen prejudice from our lot against them, and prejudice from them against us. Not much different to what is going on in this thread. But I don't have much time for it and it works out well for me and those friends. Internet forums tends to magnify the worst in people. It's like the Daily Mail of the web.

I've seen that too. But that's not the point of the thread.
 
Mirpuris are not Kashmiri's they are northern Punjabi same as the people of Jammu and northern Punjab which borders Ajk.
 
[MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION] that was in reference to my mum's generation not mine or younger than me. You make friends in your school/uni/work etc and they can be from anywhere.

I have seen many of these illiterate lack of integration mirpuris welcome sons and daughter in laws from all backgrounds (I am talking about my extended family here). So you must understand why I find the lack of integration difficult to accept as that is not the case in my relatives.

It's not the case with you, but a large chunk (probably 50 percent) of British Pakistani youth have an antisocial attitude in terms of lack of integration and behavioural problems including a pro crime attitude.
 
Mirpuris are not Kashmiri's they are northern Punjabi same as the people of Jammu and northern Punjab which borders Ajk.

Not a regional debate. There are some kids originally from Poonch and Kotli that have attitude problems in this country. Thanks.
 
Punjabis in the UK make a tiny minority of the UK Pakistani population if the census experts are to be believed, All 3 of the Pakistani suicide bombers in the UK were Punjabi.

Pakistanis really aren't a minority.

Ps in response to the above, 1 was Punjabi and the other 2 were not.
 
Pakistanis really aren't a minority.

Ps in response to the above, 1 was Punjabi and the other 2 were not.

All 3 were in fact an article was posted where one was from Jhelum and the other from Pindi
 
Maybe but atleast the UK didn't let loose masses from UP, Behar into their country who instead of integrating into the mainstream society would form their own Tiny Behar and UP zones in England and progress at same rate of the region that they left in Pakistan.

In fairness to Mirpuris they worked hard as labourers which the UK needed after WWII. Some people seem intent on demonising a particular part of Brit pak society even though there are problems across the board.
 
All 3 were in fact an article was posted where one was from Jhelum and the other from Pindi

One was Infact related to someone we know who is Mirpuri. The person we know cut off all contact with the family. Don't blame him either. Disgusting acts from the three.
 
It's not the case with you, but a large chunk (probably 50 percent) of British Pakistani youth have an antisocial attitude in terms of lack of integration and behavioural problems including a pro crime attitude.

Usually those with a pro-crime attitude are just down and out people who can't earn money in a legitimate fashion. There were similar accusations made against the black community (and still are probably). As for the reasons these people are down and out, that probably needs to be looked at, I would be interested to hear any theory as I haven't seen it first hand.
 
Arn't they all the same poonch, mirpuris, kotli? Same language right?

Poonchis are very different in attitude. Usually much higher attainment in education and a totally different attitude to life. Language is similar but Poonchis speak more Pahari.
 
One was Infact related to someone we know who is Mirpuri. The person we know cut off all contact with the family. Don't blame him either. Disgusting acts from the three.

Which one won't be hard to corroborate it.
 
Poonchis are very different in attitude. Usually much higher attainment in education and a totally different attitude to life. Language is similar but Poonchis speak more Pahari.

Luton is "full of" people from Kotli and Poonch
 
Usually those with a pro-crime attitude are just down and out people who can't earn money in a legitimate fashion. There were similar accusations made against the black community (and still are probably). As for the reasons these people are down and out, that probably needs to be looked at, I would be interested to hear any theory as I haven't seen it first hand.

It appears that we've taken the position of the West Indians from the 80s in prisons and on the streets. That's why I've brought this thread up; I live in inner city Birmingham (although not for too much longer). The police often let the low level criminals carry on with their behaviour as they seemingly want to keep the community backward and failing.
 
None of them are technically "Kashmiri" Kashmiris as none are born there. But please if you want to discuss my expert topic of Kashmir, open another thread. This isn't a regional one.

If I'm born in England it doesn't make me an Englishman.
 
my family are from ajk but have i lived in pindi. I don't think him staying with relatives in pindi proves anything as there as many people from ajk living in pindi.
 
my family are from ajk but have i lived in pindi. I don't think him staying with relatives in pindi proves anything as there as many people from ajk living in pindi.

So sir Anwar Pervez etc could be from AJK too? There is also many people from AJK living in every corner in Pakistan due to a very strong Army culture
 
Last edited:
pretty sure as his village was opposite mine but on pakistan side and went under in the dam construction and his mother was from ajk as far as I can recall.
Many live in punjab due to the mangla dam along the gt road or land was provided in gujarat too.
 
pretty sure as his village was opposite mine but on pakistan side and went under in the dam construction and his mother was from ajk as far as I can recall.
Many live in punjab due to the mangla dam along the gt road or land was provided in gujarat too.

A large amount of hotel and business owners in Pindi are from AJK
 
Last edited:
I was also going to add the poison of biraderism and the "biraderi vote" where uneducated people have become councillors and don't do anything in office.

Good people are sidelined or do not attempt to become councillor in favour of these often illiterate buffoons.
 
I was also going to add the poison of biraderism and the "biraderi vote" where uneducated people have become councillors and don't do anything in office.

Good people are sidelined or do not attempt to become councillor in favour of these often illiterate buffoons.

This works both ways Sadiq Khan and Keith Vaz practically put Naz Shah in to power
 
We shouldn't generalise one community or the other.

But let's not pretend everything is honky dory either. There are lot of Pakistani gangsters/chavs in London areas but particularly more in areas like Birmingham and Bradford who are doing poor in education so limit themselves for job opportunities.

Education is the answer and particularly the women need it as much as they can so they can improve their lives.
 
I was also going to add the poison of biraderism and the "biraderi vote" where uneducated people have become councillors and don't do anything in office.

Good people are sidelined or do not attempt to become councillor in favour of these often illiterate buffoons.


When I see the op title I was ready to disagree with you but you hit the nail on the head

I don't think we can call it a Pakistani community failure problem all communities are failing
Education standards are slipping
More work is being done by unskilled workers at home and abroad
More kids are drinking and sex at much younger ages just as they are with cannabis etc

The Pakistani community is being pushed both at home and abroad to weed out both the extremists in their community and also the badboys and replace them with doctors and engineers who know how to have s good time without commiting a crime
This is most prevalent within Ramadan when you see Pakistani elders at mosque and also recently Arab elders doing their upmost to stop young muslims becoming too extreme in worship during ramadan
You will also see it when gaza and Aleppo are on the news as the Muslim Asian community is lent on to prevent their youngsters getting to drawn into these issues and eventually there will be a domestic incident in someone's house or an imran Khan jalsa that will divert everyone's attention

For all the left wing hype about arranged marriages and letting birds fly out the nest they rely on ethnic communities as a bloc for their vote bank and rely on the community elders putting everyone else under control

How do you define failure
We have an over proportionate amount of Asians in the news NHS and also have a fair share of MPs
I do agree with your post though that Pakistani politics are exported to places like Bradford and birminghan
 
Any literature of when Mirpuri's were listed as seperate race and Chinese dropping 30% in two years.

Why are Bengali's and Punjabi's doing so much worse then Afro Caribeans in London despite getting much better GCSE grades than them?
The above are from the Manchester City Council, not even Greater Manchester! And yet you are using selective data such as above to somehow claim that its representative of the whole country! Ridiculous!

For example, it's widely recognised that children of Chinese background are often amongst the highest performers - and yet according to the above data, in 2013 children of Chinese backgrounds were way down the list having dropped from 79.2% in 2011 to 50% in 2013 (5+A*-C).

If you intend to use statistics, do try and ensure that they present the whole picture. Manchester City Council is not representative of the whole of the UK.
 
The above are from the Manchester City Council, not even Greater Manchester! And yet you are using selective data such as above to somehow claim that its representative of the whole country! Ridiculous!

For example, it's widely recognised that children of Chinese background are often amongst the highest performers - and yet according to the above data, in 2013 children of Chinese backgrounds were way down the list having dropped from 79.2% in 2011 to 50% in 2013 (5+A*-C).

If you intend to use statistics, do try and ensure that they present the whole picture. Manchester City Council is not representative of the whole of the UK.

It was not me who used selective stats my reply was in response to this post #75

You're right about performance in school.
 
I just made an account to respond to this thread.

I feel a lot of Pakpassioners are critical of British Pakistanis. I find this very strange to be honest. We are not the best of ethnic groups, however, a lot of us have made strides in the right direction and contribute to the society. Examples include our hospitals having a lot of British Pakistani doctors, we have made contributions in politics (Sadiq Khan and many others) etc.

You may call us a failure but the truth is that Pakistanis in Pakistan are failures. We contribute a lot to the Pakistani society. Most families around me here support their lazy families in Pakistan, we fund Pakistani charities etc.

Whilst we do this, you bring in corrupt politicians election after election, you have made Pakistani into one of the most corrupt countries in the world, you made Pakistan into a destabilised country, Pakistani literacy rate is low...all in all, your behavior & attitude has made Pakistan into a banana republic.

To conclude, we do more for Britain and Pakistan then the people who criticise us do for Pakistan. Wake up and smell the coffee. Its a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
 
It appears that we've taken the position of the West Indians from the 80s in prisons and on the streets. That's why I've brought this thread up; I live in inner city Birmingham (although not for too much longer). The police often let the low level criminals carry on with their behaviour as they seemingly want to keep the community backward and failing.

I drove through Birmingham last year (Ladypool Road) and I mentioned this in a previous thread - after parking my car, a young lady wearing a niqab and pushing a pram told me to watch where I parked it as it would be targeted for breaking into. I'm pretty sure this is a predominantly Muslim area, although whether it is Pakistani I don't know. So definitely there seems to be a problem with inner city crime in Birmingham.
 
I just made an account to respond to this thread.

I feel a lot of Pakpassioners are critical of British Pakistanis. I find this very strange to be honest. We are not the best of ethnic groups, however, a lot of us have made strides in the right direction and contribute to the society. Examples include our hospitals having a lot of British Pakistani doctors, we have made contributions in politics (Sadiq Khan and many others) etc.

You may call us a failure but the truth is that Pakistanis in Pakistan are failures. We contribute a lot to the Pakistani society. Most families around me here support their lazy families in Pakistan, we fund Pakistani charities etc.

Whilst we do this, you bring in corrupt politicians election after election, you have made Pakistani into one of the most corrupt countries in the world, you made Pakistan into a destabilised country, Pakistani literacy rate is low...all in all, your behavior & attitude has made Pakistan into a banana republic.

To conclude, we do more for Britain and Pakistan then the people who criticise us do for Pakistan. Wake up and smell the coffee. Its a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

The post and most of the replies on the thread seems to be done by Pakistanis living in UK,unless they are faking it.

No point bringing in Pakistanis living in Pakistan as they are not the ones criticizing Pakistanis living in UK.
 
Usually those with a pro-crime attitude are just down and out people who can't earn money in a legitimate fashion. There were similar accusations made against the black community (and still are probably). As for the reasons these people are down and out, that probably needs to be looked at, I would be interested to hear any theory as I haven't seen it first hand.
There are tendencies amongst many Pakistanis whereby instead of highlighting the positives and success stories so as to encourage others to aspire to emulate them, they prefer to focus on the negatives and highlight the bad apples in their own communities, thereby giving the perception that the whole community is riddled with crime, corruption and backward practices.

This perception is then picked up by the wider community, amplified by the press, resulting in even fewer opportunities for those decent, hard working, law abiding citizens with aspirations due to potential employers and businesses shying away from hiring them and investing in these communities.

A self fulfilling prophecy to some extent.

(Notice how even desi dramas are full of doom and gloom, villains taking advantage of the already downtrodden, as opposed to stories of endeavour and success)

Many of the posters here perfectly fit the 'revelling in doom & gloom' stereotypes.
 
Last edited:
There are tendencies amongst many Pakistanis whereby instead of highlighting the positives and success stories so as to encourage others to aspire to emulate them, they prefer to focus on the negatives and highlight the bad apples in their own communities, thereby giving the perception that the whole community is riddled with crime, corruption and backward practices.

This perception is then picked up by the wider community, amplified by the press, resulting in even fewer opportunities for those decent, hard working, law abiding citizens with aspirations due to potential employers and businesses shying away from hiring them and investing in these communities.

A self fulfilling prophecy to some extent.

(Notice how even desi dramas are full of doom and gloom, villains taking advantage of the already downtrodden, as opposed to stories of endeavour and success)

Many of the posters here perfectly fit the 'revelling in doom & gloom' stereotypes.

In UK people are hired based on community and race?
 
In UK people are hired based on community and race?
Shouldn't happen. But it does.


British Asians 'struggle for top jobs despite better school results'

Social Mobility Commission study says group’s lower likelihood of being employed in managerial or professional jobs is down to workplace discrimination

Children of Bangladeshi and Pakistani origin in Britain have outperformed other ethnic groups to achieve rapid improvements at every level of education, but are significantly less likely to be employed in managerial or professional jobs than their white counterparts, according to a study.

A report to be published on Wednesday by the government’s Social Mobility Commission says the trend is being driven in part by workplace discrimination, particularly against Muslim women.

The commission’s chair, Alan Milburn, said the findings showed that Britain was a long way from offering a level playing field to non-white groups, and called for urgent action to break down barriers.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ens-school-gains-not-paying-off-in-work-study

Furthermore, if an area has a reputation for crime and low academic achievement, businesses and employers would not be keep to invest in those areas, thereby reducing the opportunities for jobs and for other local businesses to feed off the businesses created by the outside investors.
It becomes a vicious circle.
 
This was not intended to be a regional debate. My family have done reasonably well which is mostly down to my parents and they were not formally educated.

There are pockets of success and the education levels are probably improving. HOWEVER, this is often minimised by the attitude of the youngsters. The youngsters often try to emulate rappers from the USA and put on West Indian accents. They seem to be aliens amongst all aspects of British society apart from their own odd subculture which is neither British nor Pakistani. These youngsters often seem to hate a lot of people. Mark my words, the White British population is aware of the behaviour of these people.

It's often the attitude of the British Pakistani population that is a problem. A lack of integration and the antisocial mentality amongst the youth in places like Birmingham, Yorkshire and London means that we have a bad reputation. We are best known for crime and antisocial behaviour (by non British Pakistanis).

That's why I say we have failed in general. Obviously restauranters, labourers and educated folk have done well and have a place in society.

Part of my question is; what do many British Pakistanis contribute to society? Absolutely zero!

You live in Birmingham and in an area where many youth follow WESTERN culture. Is speaking in a pattwa accent or dresssing like rappers a Pakistani trait? Of course not, they are following urban culture, British culture. So you are defeating your own argument here, they are integrating but not in the way you would like. Those involved in gang culture (it is the minority even though you are suggesting it's not) are also following British urban culture, every ethnicity has elements involved in this.

You are not the guardian of what British Pakistani's should behave like. As long as people are obiding by the law, in Britain they can follow any type of image they like. If they want to live on low income and spend their days listening to music, it's their choice. You need to relax and worry about yourself.
 
I just made an account to respond to this thread.

I feel a lot of Pakpassioners are critical of British Pakistanis. I find this very strange to be honest. We are not the best of ethnic groups, however, a lot of us have made strides in the right direction and contribute to the society. Examples include our hospitals having a lot of British Pakistani doctors, we have made contributions in politics (Sadiq Khan and many others) etc.

You may call us a failure but the truth is that Pakistanis in Pakistan are failures. We contribute a lot to the Pakistani society. Most families around me here support their lazy families in Pakistan, we fund Pakistani charities etc.

Whilst we do this, you bring in corrupt politicians election after election, you have made Pakistani into one of the most corrupt countries in the world, you made Pakistan into a destabilised country, Pakistani literacy rate is low...all in all, your behavior & attitude has made Pakistan into a banana republic.

To conclude, we do more for Britain and Pakistan then the people who criticise us do for Pakistan. Wake up and smell the coffee. Its a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Good post.

Every single Pakistani who has arrived in Britain from the 50's to this day has worked their backsides off to support their families back in Pakistan. If their children haven't all turned out to be the perfect citizens it cannot take away from their achievements of taking their families out of poverty and helping Pakistan along the way.
 
Good post.

Every single Pakistani who has arrived in Britain from the 50's to this day has worked their backsides off to support their families back in Pakistan. If their children haven't all turned out to be the perfect citizens it cannot take away from their achievements of taking their families out of poverty and helping Pakistan along the way.

Agreed with that. The first generation were tremendous. It's the second generation that has a large chunk of failures.
 
You live in Birmingham and in an area where many youth follow WESTERN culture. Is speaking in a pattwa accent or dresssing like rappers a Pakistani trait? Of course not, they are following urban culture, British culture. So you are defeating your own argument here, they are integrating but not in the way you would like. Those involved in gang culture (it is the minority even though you are suggesting it's not) are also following British urban culture, every ethnicity has elements involved in this.

You are not the guardian of what British Pakistani's should behave like. As long as people are obiding by the law, in Britain they can follow any type of image they like. If they want to live on low income and spend their days listening to music, it's their choice. You need to relax and worry about yourself.

It's definitely not Pakistani culture. Nor is it British. I don't like it because it impacts on what people think about us. We are seen as the low lives of British society.

I'm very comfortable in my own skin Bhai. I found out how big the problem is by speaking to Non-Brit Pakistanis. Nobody likes these antisocial yobbos standing on street corners, dealing drugs and acting aggressively to others.

I listened to 2pac at times, but I'm not deluded to call others "fam" and "bredrin" and act like I'm black. These foul-mouthed yobbos can't even speak English properly.

That is the thing; they don't follow the law. Selling their drugs on street corners isn't following the law. Blocking roads in the middle of the road with dodgy parking. Fly tipping. Assaulting others.

This is the second generation mainly and even third. These aren't the values our parents instilled into us.

Driving up and down Alum Rock Road, Southall Broadway and Wilmslow Road on Eid drinking alcohol and smoking drugs with hired cars whilst blasting music and blasting horns is the most ridiculous thing ever.

It is about time that we wake up to the reality of how other people see us. I never saw it as being THAT bad until other ethnicities started talking to me about it.

Even worse some of us barely integrate with other people.

I might not be the guardian of Brit Pakistanis, but I'm concerned about the society that future generations will grow into.
 
Last edited:
There are tendencies amongst many Pakistanis whereby instead of highlighting the positives and success stories so as to encourage others to aspire to emulate them, they prefer to focus on the negatives and highlight the bad apples in their own communities, thereby giving the perception that the whole community is riddled with crime, corruption and backward practices.

This perception is then picked up by the wider community, amplified by the press, resulting in even fewer opportunities for those decent, hard working, law abiding citizens with aspirations due to potential employers and businesses shying away from hiring them and investing in these communities.

A self fulfilling prophecy to some extent.

(Notice how even desi dramas are full of doom and gloom, villains taking advantage of the already downtrodden, as opposed to stories of endeavour and success)

Many of the posters here perfectly fit the 'revelling in doom & gloom' stereotypes.

This reminds me of why I've never been able to tolerate desi tv or cinema. You get the feeling some posters here would burst into tears every time they picked up a tabloid newspaper. I'm not kidding, I think I'd prefer to be in the company of the gangster dopeheads, at least they would be getting on with life rather than worrying about what everyone else is thinking of them.
 
If you look at it, disproportionate numbers are involved in crime. We contribute little to UK society. Have we failed since coming here to the UK? The older generation worked hard but the newer generation has mostly failed. Discuss.

I don't think it's entirely failed but I do worry about the younger generation as a lot of them seem to be on the wrong side of the fence.

Having said that though there are many Pakistanis in the UK who contribute in a positive way.
 
It's definitely not Pakistani culture. Nor is it British. I don't like it because it impacts on what people think about us. We are seen as the low lives of British society.

I'm very comfortable in my own skin Bhai. I found out how big the problem is by speaking to Non-Brit Pakistanis. Nobody likes these antisocial yobbos standing on street corners, dealing drugs and acting aggressively to others.

I listened to 2pac at times, but I'm not deluded to call others "fam" and "bredrin" and act like I'm black. These foul-mouthed yobbos can't even speak English properly.

That is the thing; they don't follow the law. Selling their drugs on street corners isn't following the law. Blocking roads in the middle of the road with dodgy parking. Fly tipping. Assaulting others.

This is the second generation mainly and even third. These aren't the values our parents instilled into us.

Driving up and down Alum Rock Road, Southall Broadway and Wilmslow Road on Eid drinking alcohol and smoking drugs with hired cars whilst blasting music and blasting horns is the most ridiculous thing ever.

It is about time that we wake up to the reality of how other people see us. I never saw it as being THAT bad until other ethnicities started talking to me about it.

Even worse some of us barely integrate with other people.

I might not be the guardian of Brit Pakistanis, but I'm concerned about the society that future generations will grow into.

Future generations are destined to be doomed morally in general, this is true for people of all colours, backgrounds. Look at the white youth, they might not drive up and down high streets but they go out every weekend to get drunk, get involved in fights, vommit on themselves, urinate in town centres etc . They have little respect for their elders, arguing , swearing at their parents. Girls are getting pregnant in their teenage years, the number of single parents is increasing as time goes by. Sexual diseases are increasing, mental illnesses, depression are increasing. We can go into similar issues for other groups too. The point is it's only the British Pakistani youth who are involved in anti social behaviour and are morally deficiant. If anything as the generations pass by, the British Pakistani youth are becoming more and more successful in the UK. Look at how many MP's there are, sportsman coming through, others in the field of media etc..

I think because you see it all the time, it's frustrating and seems to be a major problem. Maybe it is but there are problems in all communties esp the working class who are stuck in a vicious cycle of lack of education and thus lack of opportunities. Youths who have little education will not work at a minimum wage when they can make good money in criminal activities and with the punishments very lienient in this country crime is always an attractive alternative.
 
Future generations are destined to be doomed morally in general, this is true for people of all colours, backgrounds. Look at the white youth, they might not drive up and down high streets but they go out every weekend to get drunk, get involved in fights, vommit on themselves, urinate in town centres etc . They have little respect for their elders, arguing , swearing at their parents. Girls are getting pregnant in their teenage years, the number of single parents is increasing as time goes by. Sexual diseases are increasing, mental illnesses, depression are increasing. We can go into similar issues for other groups too. The point is it's only the British Pakistani youth who are involved in anti social behaviour and are morally deficiant. If anything as the generations pass by, the British Pakistani youth are becoming more and more successful in the UK. Look at how many MP's there are, sportsman coming through, others in the field of media etc..

I think because you see it all the time, it's frustrating and seems to be a major problem. Maybe it is but there are problems in all communties esp the working class who are stuck in a vicious cycle of lack of education and thus lack of opportunities. Youths who have little education will not work at a minimum wage when they can make good money in criminal activities and with the punishments very lienient in this country crime is always an attractive alternative.

A top post.

Yes we have Shabana Mahmood, Sadiq Khan and a lot of highly educated youngsters in this country as well as experienced people too 😄

You seem to understand my frustrations given that you know I'm also from Birmingham.
 
I don't think it's entirely failed but I do worry about the younger generation as a lot of them seem to be on the wrong side of the fence.

Having said that though there are many Pakistanis in the UK who contribute in a positive way.

Of course Saj. It's not an entire failure. We've done some really good things.

However, there are some massive worries about the youth. It's very scary.
 
Of course Saj. It's not an entire failure. We've done some really good things.

However, there are some massive worries about the youth. It's very scary.
But is it really the youth that are to blame for all this? Or are they also the victims themselves, victims of circumstances, victims of the societies and community cultures created by their forefathers, which includes lack of employment opportunities in the communities where they live? That they are neither 'Brits' nor Pakistanis, and saddled with the 'Pakee' stigma created for them by prior generations?

If it was just a few bad apples here and there, yes you could put it down to the fact that every community has a few bad apples, but when the problem is as widespread as is being claimed then you have to ask the question whether its just bad luck that these communities have more than the average number of bad apples, or is the answer elsewhere, and in fact they are victims more than anything else.

In other words its too simplistic to solely look at the symptoms without understanding the history and root causes that led to all this.

Just raising an alternative viewpoint by playing the Devil's Advocate - without suggesting that I fully agree with the said viewpoint.
 
Good post.

Every single Pakistani who has arrived in Britain from the 50's to this day has worked their backsides off to support their families back in Pakistan. If their children haven't all turned out to be the perfect citizens it cannot take away from their achievements of taking their families out of poverty and helping Pakistan along the way.
For every one of those young men who came in the 50's and early 60's, leaving their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, wives & children behind, there are now dozens of children, grandchildren, great grandchildren plus others (who came as fiances) who are living far better lives than would have been the case otherwise if those early pioneers had never come. And similar for the brothers and sisters they left behind (and their offspring) - they all benefitted from the sacrifices of these young men.

Furthermore, not only did they work long hours and suffered many hardships, including rampant racism, but they didn't see their loved ones for upwards of 5, or even 10 years after their initial arrival. These were times when there were no phones in the villages where they came from, meaning they were unable to talk to their loved ones - and even if they could, a 3 minute phone call was over a weeks wages.

The only commuication was via airmail letter, which took weeks to arrive. Even that was a problem because many could not read/write, and neither could the loved ones they left behind. They had to ask friends to read/write whilst they dictated to them. Similarly, the loved ones back home often had to go and pay someone to read/write on their behalf. Imagine this being the only method of communicating with your wife for years on end!
 
For every one of those young men who came in the 50's and early 60's, leaving their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, wives & children behind, there are now dozens of children, grandchildren, great grandchildren plus others (who came as fiances) who are living far better lives than would have been the case otherwise if those early pioneers had never come. And similar for the brothers and sisters they left behind (and their offspring) - they all benefitted from the sacrifices of these young men.

Furthermore, not only did they work long hours and suffered many hardships, including rampant racism, but they didn't see their loved ones for upwards of 5, or even 10 years after their initial arrival. These were times when there were no phones in the villages where they came from, meaning they were unable to talk to their loved ones - and even if they could, a 3 minute phone call was over a weeks wages.

The only commuication was via airmail letter, which took weeks to arrive. Even that was a problem because many could not read/write, and neither could the loved ones they left behind. They had to ask friends to read/write whilst they dictated to them. Similarly, the loved ones back home often had to go and pay someone to read/write on their behalf. Imagine this being the only method of communicating with your wife for years on end!

very well said I have explained to so many people how hard it was being an immigrant back then compared to the ease it is now (as I have moved to Australia how unmirpuri like of me). Apart from time difference I can call/skype without having the struggles of my family.
 
I have had a long association with British Pakistanis, but after interacting with American Pakistanis lately, I have to an early conclusion based on my limited knowledge on the latter that the American Pakistanis are a lot more flexible when it comes to integrating and adopting and assimilating the American culture.

I have found British Pakistanis a bit too uptight and excessively obsessed in holding onto their cultural values and norms, which obviously is a drawback in a multicultural society.
 
I have had a long association with British Pakistanis, but after interacting with American Pakistanis lately, I have to an early conclusion based on my limited knowledge on the latter that the American Pakistanis are a lot more flexible when it comes to integrating and adopting and assimilating the American culture.

I have found British Pakistanis a bit too uptight and excessively obsessed in holding onto their cultural values and norms, which obviously is a drawback in a multicultural society.
Go back and read some of the earlier posts in this thread re-the social and economic backgrounds of those who initially emigrated to the UK versus those who emigrated to the USA. Then perhaps you'll understand - but then again, you being from the Pakistani educated / wealthy / middle classes you might not unless you truly understand the everyday lives and hardships of even todays Pakistan's poorly educated, poverty stricken remote villagers never mind of those of 50 odd years ago.

In countries like Pakistan, the wealthy middle classes live in a completely different world to those of the underprivileged.

To quote the anecdote (falsely) attributed to Marie-Antoinette, the Queen consort of Louis XVI. Upon being told that the peasants were revolting because they had no bread to eat, she replied "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche" ("Let them eat cake").
 
It is all about education. Sad thing is that the successful and professional Pakistanis are accused of such things because of their compatriots. Parents must emphasise the importance of education to their kid's at a young age even if they hate it. My parents made me study hard, today I am reaping the benefits!
 
De ja vu.

I feel like I've read this before. I don't see how discussing this would help change the situation. It just serves as a way for people to hate on Brit-Paks & causes more division among the Pak community.
 
The annual "state of British Pakistanis" thread on PP.

Firstly, the working-classes of all races are struggling right now. With wages 10% lower than they were before the financial crash of 2008 (the only other country receiving such a hit being Greece), extremely competitive jobs market especially for new graduates and higher living costs - economic struggles are not limited to any one ethnic group in the UK.

Secondly, I think progress is being made. Its heartening to see some 3rd generation Pakistanis making a real effort when it comes to education, more are attending university, and its reflected in how many British Pakistanis are working in the NHS in clinical roles.

People often mention the average household incomes for British Pakistanis but I think that'll improve as more women enter the workplace. However BMEs as a whole are still underrepresented in the police and other sectors.
 
De ja vu.

I feel like I've read this before. I don't see how discussing this would help change the situation. It just serves as a way for people to hate on Brit-Paks & causes more division among the Pak community.

Have to discuss problem's like we do an illness otherwise we'll remain in denial. I don't see the point in shoving it under the carpet.
 
Have to discuss problem's like we do an illness otherwise we'll remain in denial. I don't see the point in shoving it under the carpet.

Everything good or bad should be discussed in context. However, if we discuss British Pakistanis in only the bad context, then it creates a false impression. Imagine if every story about India on here was about cheating, poverty and disease. Instead we have lots of Indians promoting India in a good light and they get very annoyed when negative stories become the norm.

I hope you understand I am not saying everything should be portrayed hunky dory, but there needs to be balance. There is a difference between constructive criticism and trolling.
 
Everything good or bad should be discussed in context. However, if we discuss British Pakistanis in only the bad context, then it creates a false impression. Imagine if every story about India on here was about cheating, poverty and disease. Instead we have lots of Indians promoting India in a good light and they get very annoyed when negative stories become the norm.

I hope you understand I am not saying everything should be portrayed hunky dory, but there needs to be balance. There is a difference between constructive criticism and trolling.
Forward thinking nationalities:
If the other guy is higher up the ladder, then buckle down, work harder to reach up to his level.

Common Pakistani trait:
If the other guy is higher up the ladder, then grab him by the ankles and pull him down to your level.
 
I have had a long association with British Pakistanis, but after interacting with American Pakistanis lately, I have to an early conclusion based on my limited knowledge on the latter that the American Pakistanis are a lot more flexible when it comes to integrating and adopting and assimilating the American culture.

I have found British Pakistanis a bit too uptight and excessively obsessed in holding onto their cultural values and norms, which obviously is a drawback in a multicultural society.


Although i'm a Brit-Pakistani, I have spent a fair part of my life in the US and agree with your observation to some extent but i do feel if all those American-Pakistanis lived in the an area the same size as the UK, lets say a single US state, you will have the same issues with lack of prospects and goals with an over emphasis on cultural and religious identity forced on by the ideologies of the 1st / 2nd generation immigrants which will lead to the same feeling of isolation for the next generation.

never the less, i feel it is a 1st / 2nd generation problem, the 3rd generation brit-paks are actually more switched onto shaping their future in the current climate then this thread would lead you to believe, most of the young adults in my family and friends circle are either in university, holding down decent jobs or having a fair crack at entrepreneurism. Yes you have good percentage of wasters and criminals but those numbers are relative to all other ethnic and non ethnic groups of the same ages range.
 
Forward thinking nationalities:
If the other guy is higher up the ladder, then buckle down, work harder to reach up to his level.

Common Pakistani trait:
If the other guy is higher up the ladder, then grab him by the ankles and pull him down to your level.

There's some truth in that, but again, it's not exclusive to Pakistanis. It's like the perception that Pakistanis believe in conspiracy theories, then when you get Russia rattling a few cages, suddenly Americans and Brits start becoming big believers in conspiracy theories as well.
 
Go back and read some of the earlier posts in this thread re-the social and economic backgrounds of those who initially emigrated to the UK versus those who emigrated to the USA. Then perhaps you'll understand - but then again, you being from the Pakistani educated / wealthy / middle classes you might not unless you truly understand the everyday lives and hardships of even todays Pakistan's poorly educated, poverty stricken remote villagers never mind of those of 50 odd years ago.

In countries like Pakistan, the wealthy middle classes live in a completely different world to those of the underprivileged.

To quote the anecdote (falsely) attributed to Marie-Antoinette, the Queen consort of Louis XVI. Upon being told that the peasants were revolting because they had no bread to eat, she replied "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche" ("Let them eat cake").

I am aware of the different backgrounds of British Pakistanis compared to American Pakistanis, and how the former have struggled a lot more, but I don't agree with is why that should contribute to British Pakistanis being less well-integrated compared to their American counterparts?

If anything, they should be more thankful that they have managed to better their lives and that of their future generations by moving to the UK, which should motivate them to assimilate better.
 
Seems like I have offended you. From my experience, I have found Pashtun British Pakistanis well integrated, but the Mirpuris do stick out and they were the ones I was referring to mostly.

He isn't mirpuri, I don't want to generalize but pashtuns in general have a bad reputation across the second city. But I don't like calling out specific ethnicity, it's not the right thing to do and there is too much mudslinging going on in this thread and no one is being objective so everyone is left with no choice but to indulge in this farce of a discussion
 
Last edited:
Very few truly understand ground realities and root causes or perhaps they do but lose the plot given the need to justify their biases
 
I am aware of the different backgrounds of British Pakistanis compared to American Pakistanis, and how the former have struggled a lot more, but I don't agree with is why that should contribute to British Pakistanis being less well-integrated compared to their American counterparts?
OK, let me try and explain.

As mentioned previously, the Pakistanis came to work as manual labourers in the cotton & woollen mills of the North and the heavy industries of the Midlands. So just like most newly arrived, uneducated immigrants, they performed the worst and lowest paid jobs. To make matters worse, apart from feeding and looking after themselves, they also needed to send the little money they had back to support their families back home.

Result? They congregated together, living in the cheapest and most deprived parts of the twon and cities. As newcomers came, they too gravitated towards the same areas. Then they brought their families to live with them - again in the same areas. They formed ghettos.

When the factories closed en mass and caused massive unemployment, those living in these ghettos were the worst off - for all the reasons explained earlier.

But, those that did manage to improve their lot, acquire decent education / good jobs / acquire a little bit of wealth, they started to move out and disperse into the more upmarket suburbs, with better schooling, better facilities, lower unemployment etc. You will find that these British Pakistanis, by and large, are just as integrated as their American counterparts (- having lived/worked in the States for a few years, and now living in one such area, I can verify this personally).

As for the American Pakistanis, coming from middle class/ wealthier / educated backgrounds (as students, doctors, engineers etc), their starting point in the States was very similar to those British Pakistanis who had managed to move out of the deprived inner city areas. Not only that, but they had no need to send money back to support their wealthy middle class families back home. meaning that they could afford better housing, live in better areas with better schooling etc. You get the picture.

If anything, they should be more thankful that they have managed to better their lives and that of their future generations by moving to the UK, which should motivate them to assimilate better.
It's not easy as you may think. Living in a deprived area means worst schools, fewer jobs, higher crime rates - and even organisations like Banks and Insurance companies (say for insuring your car - which is compulsory in the UK otherwise you can't drive the car on a public road) work against you by increasing their rates and/or denying you loans and refusing to insure you.

Let me give you an example of a current situation which does not even involve someone living in a deprived area.

Because of the large discrepency of house prices in the UK between London & the South east versus the North, if a family man living in the North, with a good job and a decent house in a good neighbourhood, is made redundant but is offered a new job in London / the South-East (even with a larger salary), he will most likely turn it down.

Why? You may ask.

The reason being that the price he will obtain for selling his big family house in the North, will unlikely be enough for a flat/house half the size in a deprived area of London ie Not large enough for him and his family to live in. Thus he's stuck in the North unless he can get a mega increase in his salary for relocating which will enable him to take on a much larger mortgage for a larger house in a decent area of London.

Now translate that to someone low paid or unemployed living in a deprived inner city area of a Northern town trying to move to the suburbs with better housing, better facilities, better schools, better prospects for employment. Basically, he's stuck in his ghetto, that of the British Pakistani community containing none other than British Pakistanis, with all the aforementioned probems. And so the circle continues for his children. (That's not to say that every now and then some, like my parents, manage to break out of that circle and move to better areas where 'they can integrate')
 
Many of these folk complaining about x,y,z have deserted their folk/plan-to-leave-said-region to a more white area to feel more integrated because people from such regions are a lot more 'integrated' with other races right yet white professors and students alike from predominately white regions racially abuse colored folk on university campus. So hence, the old aunties are now limited to whining because that's a bit more practical then actually trying to help on any level whilst making shocking generalizations because some guy on ladypool road went past them with amplifier on :yk2 they are everything they hate.
 
He isn't mirpuri, I don't want to generalize but pashtuns in general have a bad reputation across the second city. But I don't like calling out specific ethnicity, it's not the right thing to do and there is too much mudslinging going on in this thread and no one is being objective so everyone is left with no choice but to indulge in this farce of a discussion

This is very much the boat I'm in, what I've found is that even in Pakistan I found people used to be quite careful about how they spoke about different ethnicities or castes and for good reason. Unfortunately online, people use their anonymity to voice their ugly prejudices, and we see this is also not limited to one colour or nationality.

I think the OP was probably well meaning enough, just hasn't lived outside a Pakistani dominated area so hasn't got much to compare it with. Anyone who thinks drugs and crime don't happen in any other major city is in for a major shock if they try moving across the country. The only places which might be relatively crime free are those where you have small villages populated by mostly retired pensioners.
 
I think the OP was probably well meaning enough, just hasn't lived outside a Pakistani dominated area so hasn't got much to compare it with......
This

Also, those like@Mamoon saying that the British Pakistanis haven't 'integrated' enough should ask themselves the question "How do you 'integrate' if the area/community where you live is almost exclusively made up of British Pakistanis due to the reasons mentioned in my post #162 and similar posts above?"
 
Of course Saj. It's not an entire failure. We've done some really good things.

However, there are some massive worries about the youth. It's very scary.

Parents have to take some blame and responsibility for it.
 
on to page 3 now!
3rd generation of any immigrants actually start performing/behaving like the locals per say and that is happening. I feel too much emphasis on the baf and not enough on the good that members of the said communities are doing.
Yes everyone should strive for a basic education but not everyone is cut out for academics so to sayba person is failure if they don't have a degree is grossly infair. In these instances trades should be encouraged.

Also read about cousin marriage watch any pakistani drama it is all about cousin marriages (none set in AJK). That is over all Pakistan/AJK issue not just isolated to AJK.
 
Back
Top